Joey Moi has changed the sound of modern country music. He has been a producer on 62 No. 1 Songs, over 35 albums and 450 songs. He got his start in the music business working with Nickelback. While attending Vancouver’s Center for Digital Imaging and Sound his audio production assignment included recording early demos of the band. Joey and Bobby talk about how he got started writing and producing music in Canada and what inspired the move to Nashville intro country music. Joey shares stories behind the biggest albums he’s worked on from artists like Morgan Wallen, Jake Owen, Florida Georgia Line, Ernest and more!
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Episode three seventy five. Joey moy producer of sixty two
number one songs over thirty five albums. He's been a
major producer. I mean it's like five songs. He's produced Nickelback,
How You Remind And here's the thing, by the way,
we can't play music on these podcasts anymore. We'll get sued,
but I can sing him. He has produced Nickelback, How
You Remind Me? This is He You Remind Me? Rock
(00:23):
Star and the entire album it's on because we all wanted.
It's a big, big rocks. Snug him and photograph. What
was on Jim's head? The question there people ask if
what was on Jimmy's head? And it was Joey's head. Yeah, Joey,
this is Joey. That's what was weird to me. I
don't know whereds the songs, but yes, that's this is
the Joey and what was on Joey's head? Uh, Country
(00:45):
number one, Jaco and Barefoot, Blue g Night f G
L Cruz, Chris. I could keep going big into the
Morgan wall In world. He's a whole part of that
team from the beginning. So it's a really interesting mind
of of a producer, also a songwriter, also somebody who
moved to town who had worked in other genres and
(01:07):
that's it. Loved it. Here's Joey Moy What was on
Joey his Head? Episode three seventy five. By the way,
he's the partner and producer of Big Loud, Like he's
one of the big guys, are making all the decisions. Uh,
Joey Moy Here he is on the Bobby Cast. Have
we ever met in person? I think I don't. I
(01:27):
don't think so. I think we may have shaken hands,
and I didn't think so either. But this is the
longest we've ever spoke right now, in this four seconds.
I uh, because obviously I know a whole lot about you,
and in this town, especially when it's awards season, you
just never know who you run into or say hi
too quickly, and so it is a real treat to
(01:48):
talk to you. I'm a big, big fan. Just to
go back a little bit, we had Chad Kroeger on
because I'm I love Nickelback and have and um, I
love your music that you did with them. But Chad
was on and I was like, Hey, what's up. I
didn't realize you're Joey. Yes, and what was on Joey's head?
I didn't realize that was you? That was me? That
(02:10):
to me, of everything is the most because that that
that line is such a staple of like my early twenties.
And I asked him about it. I was like, Hey,
so what was on Joey's head? And he went on
this thing and that's when it was, Oh, that's Joey here.
So I just want to start with that line and
that song. I would imagine you never thought in a
(02:31):
million years that would become it's a meme now, but
it's all over the place when you heard the line
where you're like, I don't know, Chad, not not at all,
to be honest, because he had written that song. He'd
come off the road and he had written the verse.
He'd probably written a seven minute verse of that song
with all that imagery, and he started that was a
(02:52):
man that was probably New Year's two thousand five when
we took that picture something like that long time ago
when we took that picture and U uh, the picture
is hilarious because our eyes are completely blistering red and
we're having the best time of our life. Um, and uh,
it was a champagne chiller, and when you turn it
upside down it looks like the Stanley Cup, like a
(03:13):
little miniature Stanley cup. So I don't know if he
told you this story. He did, but it's always interesting
to hear another version of the same story. So so
I'm listening to the pictures when he holds up though
in the video right, correct? And so why did you
have it on your head though? Because, like any good
drunk Canadian, when you see something that looks like the
Stanley cups, go straight up and hoisted and then for
(03:35):
some reason it ended up upside down on my head
and someone snapped the picture. It was all just like
cosmic timing. How many times a week do you get
asked that question about what was on Joey's head? It
used to be, uh, like when the song was big,
and probably for about six seven years, it would be
like I was running from that question, like I had
had a lot of it um. But honestly, over the
(03:57):
last since I've been here and no one really asked
me at it. Like it's just recently with the new
music coming out that they're doing that people are asking
me again, are people mind blown when they figure out
it is you and that song in that line sometime
forever because I was I was like, oh my god,
it's like the biggest craziest thing. I was like, that's Joey,
He's coming in here. That's so famous. Uh, well again,
(04:17):
super pumped you're here. You've been such, you know, a
pivotalbal such a pivotal part of just music in general,
pop country for the past twenty thirty years or so. Um,
when you moved to Nashville, how old were you? Um?
I think I was thirty two thirty three? And why why,
(04:39):
like why did you come here? Um? You know, it
was rock music at that time, was pop music, and
it kind of just became not pop music. We had,
you know, Kanye was making huge records, and Justin Timberlake
was making huge records, and Katie Perry and Max Martin
and the Max Martin and Dr Luke Eric kind of
took over in top forty so that guitar bass, melodic
(05:00):
guitar based rock was no longer pop music. So it
was definitely we were all kind of looking at a
different future at that point. And um, you know, my
my course had run with Nickel back with those guys
working with him, and um, I kind of cleaned up
all my my rock and roll loose ends, all the
records I was working on. I kind of finished up
and myself and a day one guy for me who's
(05:24):
a Canadian country artist, Damed Dallas Smith. Um, he was
in a rock band at the same at the same time,
and uh, you know his course is kind of run
with that group. And he texted me one night and
he's like, he you want to go make a country record?
And we had threatened each other with making a country
record on him man probably ten years prior to that,
and um, yeah, finally he texted me out of the
(05:44):
blue and I was like, yeah, I'm I'm in. I'm
ready to go. At that point, I was becoming a
songwriter and H Nashville was a logical step for me
to come down and just sort of continue that university
of becoming a better songwriter. Um so, my manager at
the time booked us a trip through an Nashville. On
my first day here. I met my current business partners.
(06:04):
My first day first day here, I wrote with a
handful of guys at Big Loud, and I met Craig
and I met Seth England. Seth was had just been,
had just been as signed his job as creative manager
there from intern like he was, um and uh, I
fell in love with the place right away. Dallas and
I spent a week writing his first first country records.
(06:26):
So we kind of got to hit a lot of
great writers. We had Craig Wiseman, we had Rodney Clawson,
Chris Tompkins, Tom Douglas and she's Danny Rton and Jens
Shot like all these great country writers and m he
came down for a week, had a blast. Um. I
hit it off with Craig and Seth. At that time,
(06:46):
I was doing a lot of artist development on the
rock and roll side, like just signing young kids to
production deals and connecting the dots with songwriters and then
making a product and then going and selling it to
a record company and then fingers crossed, get to make
that record or if not, maybe one of the next thing. Um.
So I started had that element and they wanted to
do that as well, and they had the songwriting side
(07:08):
of things. So we were just a great marriage. And
it was Dallas and Default. Yeah that makes sense. Very
first kid that I ever recorded that got on the radio,
really very very very first default or default? However, you
say I worked, You know, I've worked in every format
from pop to rock to hip hop. But I used
(07:29):
to play used to play that default or default song?
What was it wasted? My time wasted? My time wasted? Yeah,
that's right here. You remember that one, Mike, I remember
that song. It was a big song. It was a
big one everywhere. Yeah, that was that was awesome. So
what is what? What was his? What was Dallas story?
(07:51):
I an't we still making country music? But I don't
has he try? Has he really put an effort into
the States to try to make it? Because I know
he's really good. He's great. I mean he's house old
name in Canada. Um, and we keep running him up
the charts up there. Are you guys still cool? I
asked that question you and Dallas? Yeah totally. I currently
make an a record on him right now. Um. Uh
(08:11):
and a dear friend like a day one kid for me. Um.
But yeah, I mean he his family's in Vancouver, he
lives in Vancouver. That's where he's committed to work and
and stay. Um he comes down here frequently. Um and uh,
you know it's uh, he's not a songwriter and so
it's easier when you are a songwriter to come and
(08:33):
immerse yourself in Nashville and to have that look in
the U S. So, um, really, we're just banking on
a great outside song to come in and you never know.
It's the power of a song. Yeah, he's really good.
He's really good. I mean his voice is second and nine.
It's one of those guys where you go, well, maybe
it hasn't happened here quite yet, but eventually it will
just based on how good he is. Yeah. Yeah, when
(08:53):
you come to Nashville, you mentioned a lot of things.
You said, you know, you had this skill set and
they had this need for that skill set. It's so
you came in so you didn't just come here and
go I'm gonna start producing folks. You came here with
a bigger business. Uh, just kind of an attitude you're
going to do more than just sit in a studio. Yeah.
I was always pretty entrepreneurial. I knew there I needed
certain pieces to to move forward. And it was really
(09:16):
in the song world. I wanted to become a better songwriter. Um,
and I knew just I had to associate myself with
great songwriters and and do it regularly. Um, and unfortunately,
I mean, what happened to my songwriting career has vanished
because production career just took right off. It's hard to
focus it on both, which is totally fine because we
ended up signing a bunch of great songwriters that that
(09:39):
and that's kind of more fun to empower. Anyways, Well,
how do you study in school? Meaning do you go, Okay,
I like music because I know you sing? You did?
I mean, I know you did. You know you're saying
even I have some background tracks you've done before. They
are pretty distinct. So obviously you had this skill set
in music. But how do you end up going into
the production side of it? And why did you choose
(10:00):
that path? Um? Honestly, I got started. I really was
into I started as a recording engineer, and I was
really into the technology side of things. And then I
started working as a recording engineer. And then you know,
if you're not happy making fifteen punk rock songs in
a day and tracking them and mixing them and doing
(10:21):
vocus on them and getting them done in a day,
you know, you really need to start taking control of
the music. So I did that for a few years
and and just naturally, how do you even know that's
a thing. Like where I come from, we wouldn't know
there was that things. Recording engineer, where did you live
and where their studios around? Like, how are you exposed
to even know that there was a person that recorded
and was over that. My guidance counselor in high school
(10:43):
fought Uh. He originally UH sent me to a radio
station in Fort St. John, British Columbia, UH five sixties
c kN L, little AM station up there, and I
got to go. I thought I wanted to work in radio,
and then they kind of put me every where. Um,
I'd sit with the morning guy, and then after that
(11:04):
they'd put me in the they called it the production room,
and they had me it was all real to reel
back then, so they had me cutting all the real
to reels and editing the song list and I kind
of really took to the technology side of it all. Um,
And that was kind of the report that the the
I guess it was the program director at the time,
reported back to my guidance counselor. So my guidance counselor
was like, well, let's try a recording studio. So then
(11:25):
he sent me down to Vancouver UM, which to a man,
it was a studio called Bullfrog Studios, and they did
a work experience thing UM for schools, and I went
down there for three or four weeks and UM, I
got to push the buttons a little and figure out
what it was, and then I kind of decided that
that was my path. I was kind of always into music,
(11:46):
and I was always into the technology side. I was
always the DJ at the high school dance and setting
up the p A. I was that kid, UM, and
it was just natural to end up going to I
wasn't a great student, like I technically haven't graduated high
school and I'm still a science credit short. But this
private college saw it in me and let me come
(12:06):
down there and attend their school. And I just really
took to the technical side of things. What does it
like to have an education system that cares? That's what
I hear that you had a like a counselor that goes, hey,
we're gonna help you. Okay, then work, let me continue
to invest my into you. That's is that normal in
Canada that they care? And yes, I mean he knew
(12:28):
I was such a bad student, Like I was terrible
at math and English and she's my friends classes all
that stuff. I was so bad. Um, but there are
certain things I was really good at. It was really
great history, and I was really great, you know, if
I was passionate and into it. Um. I think I
just kind of had a short attention span. It was
hard for me on things I didn't like. But um,
but he just recognized the things I was passionate about
(12:49):
and pushed me, pushed me there, which I guess I've
never You're the first person that's ever pointed that out. So,
I mean, I've never really thought of it. I mean,
it's a pretty valuable moment in life. You know that
he helped you and then once it wasn't there continue
to help you and see it through. That just wouldn't.
What's it like to have healthcare? Like that's the part
two where I'm like, how do we know health care here?
(13:11):
And we look at you guys, it's like you go
the doctor broken or okay, we're gonna fix that up
for you to take a second, wait and we'll fix
it up here. That, sir, it is different. That took
me a while to wrap my head around and to
know that I know people down here that don't have healthcare.
I was like, wow, you go like if you broke
your foot right now, you'd be in big trouble. Yeah,
just figure it out. And then also, it's cold. This
(13:32):
is my final Candida because we're on a bunch of
cities in Canada to my morning show is and so
it's cold a lot. Yeah to where when it's cold,
when it's just cold, it probably feels pretty warm to
you guys. How do you live in all the cold
all the time. Well, Vancouver isn't as bad. Vancouver's pretty
mild a lot of a lot of the winters. It's
(13:54):
it gets colder here in Nashville and it will be
in Vancouver. You get all that weather. The wind coming
up from the from Hawaii basically ends in Vancouver's. Vancouver's
like I think a Vancouver Seattle totally okay, Yeah, you're
two two and a half hours north basically, and Vancouver,
just most of Canada's is directly on the border right there. Um,
so Vancouver stays. You might get snow a couple of
(14:15):
times in winter, maybe for about a week, week and
a half. Then that kills that kills the romantic version
of Canada that I have in my head. Well, you're
thinking Biglues all the time. Yeah, built of ice. Yeah,
that's it. That's Saskatchewan. Whenever you come to Nashville and
you start to work with the Big Loud, was a
Big Loud shirt when you first got here. Yeah, it
was just the publishing company at the time. It was
(14:36):
Craig's company, UM, and that's where I did my just
a really easy publishing deal with them. They set at
the time was the song plugger Seth England, who's been
a big partner or a Big Loud, my partner at
Big Loud, and Craig Wiseman, who's my other partner songwriter
partner at Big Loud as well. Um. Seth originally started
(14:56):
booking my co writes for me and Uh and they
would just put me the word. Seth was booking them
at like years old, booking for you. I don't see.
I just Craig was here, but I had COVID the
one time he came, so like last minute, I texted
Mike and I was like, I got COVID, I can't
come over. I'm like giving Craig COVID. So I came
over and we did the show. But I saw Craig
(15:17):
at the c m AS a few weeks ago, a
couple of weeks ago, and I went up and I said, hey, Craig.
I never I never never met him, and I usually
just stayed on myself. I don't want to bother anybody,
just generally in live and we talked for a little bit,
and he was obviously super nice, right, just super lovely guy.
Especially I met Craig, But in Seth and I have
only seen each other in passing a few times. Usually
it's because we're somewhere and he's got somebody with him.
(15:39):
And but I tell you the thing about Seth is
every time that most every time that I have gotten
any sort of pushed back from this industry for anything
that I am doing that is slightly different, and he
can just he just has some sense, like Batman knows
what I'm getting crushed. He'll send me a message, you go, like, yo, dude,
hanging in there. It's always people that that are are
pushing the place in different ways that I mean, he
(16:01):
always sends like like a really kind inspirational men. And
I'm telling you, I don't know if he maybe if
my glasses were on, he pinbly knew who I was.
But we haven't spent a whole lot of time together,
but he is, like you, is so instrumental in a
big part of country music over the last ten years.
What is he like? Steth oh Man, I'll say I
knew Um within the first couple of weeks of knowing
(16:21):
those guys, I knew he was going to be a
huge He was a piece that somebody like me required. Um.
I remember coming here and he'd be he was still
doing going to all the writer rounds, and he had
the standard, the standard creative manager evenings that they have
to do, and he would take me out with him,
(16:43):
and I swear I would shake a hundred hands a
night with him. And I've never had anybody coming to
my life that way who was just opening the every
door to the town basically. So he's one of those
just natural connectors, natural senior executive kid. He was just
he's just got It's the easiest thing from to doing
his day. He's he's so gifted in that senior management role.
(17:07):
Um and Craig. You know, Craig's a scatter brain songwriter
and I'm a scatter brain producer. We need that one
anchor who's creative and can follow through and make sure
we're all on track. And that's him. He's truly gifted
in that. In that world. When you hop into a
studio here for the first time, are you like, all right, well,
we're about to start a whole new version of of
what I'm doing sonic, Like, do you have that feeling?
(17:28):
Or you just like he's just another day? Uh? You mean?
Like no? Like Jay, Let's say, Jay, I was looking
at your credits and the first thing that I saw
that I recognized was Jake had a credit doing Barefoot
Blue gen Night. Now you have been doing rock for
the most part, and and this is your first credit.
I'm sure maybe worked on other stuff, but were like, Okay,
well it's time to do some country here. Let's see
(17:49):
how this goes. I mean, is that kind of the feeling? Yeah,
I was terrified, Um, because we came the world I
came from. You know, you're working with rock bands. There's
usually one or two good got musicians in the group,
and then the rest of the guys, if they're playing
on the record, they're learning how to play their parts,
and it's a slower Yeah, it's just a lot of No,
not at all. You're you're working with the band, right.
(18:11):
That's that's the difference of rock and roll. It's like
this Petrie dish of whatever it is in a small
town somewhere in Alberta, and it grows into this thing.
You you capture that and and and build that where
you know, here's obviously different. You have this songwriting factory
and musician factory and all these huge giant tools in
the toolbox to use, but up there you don't. So
(18:32):
I was pretty terrified when I came down. I didn't
really understand the whole session life. And um, I remember
wearing Seth out like I'm gonna need this much time
and i don't know who these guys are and I'm
gonna have to do this and this, and then Seth,
you know, calm me down. He gave me two hours
of overtime on my first session, so I had five
hours to get in a whole song done, which now
we can get like four songs done and that much
(18:54):
time after being here. But I was terrified, and uh,
I guess Craig had our Seth had told Craig that
I was freaking out about having to come in and
cut this Jake music and having no framework reference. So
Craig basically grabbed me by the ear and took me
down to one of his demo sessions and he was like, okay,
sit here, watch And then I watched, and I'm like, oh,
I get this. Did you find you find it was
easier or you find that you were just so ready
(19:17):
for it? Um? I It took me a while to
fully embrace the Nashville tracking system. I didn't speak the
language very well. I was used to just speaking to
other musically illiterate people who just sang their ideas out right.
Where here there's a kind of super defined language. It's
really they've simplified it down so you can communicate shorthand
(19:38):
through a creative process, which is great. But it took
me a while to learn that. So it caused me
to the result was I sat in my studio and
played as much as I could and program drums and
did as much as I could myself, and then I
would just bring guys in to the studio and work
with them the old fashioned way, the way I did
in Vancouver. So I just have one guitar player sit
with me and we would just sing parts back and
(19:58):
forth and figure out how to do it. But now
I feel like I'm a I was saying, I'm trying
to be more Dan huff uh and be able to like,
you know, read charts, which I can now and it
took me a while to figure out how to do that,
uh and just speak more of the session player language
so um. And that came kind of by demand. The
(20:18):
business grew enough and I just had to make more
music faster, and so I had to go embrace the
the tracking, the tracking room style of making records, which
I absolutely love doing now. I can't believe it took
me so long. It's so fun and you learn, you
kind of get to be a GM of sports team
at that point. You kind of figure out what lane
you're going in and then you cast the musicians appropriately
(20:40):
for that, right. So I have kind of have three
or four crews that I put together for certain styles
of music. Whenever these country artists come in when you
first get here, and my experience was, oh, they can
all sing, like pretty much. I was surprised because where
I came from him pop they couldn't. And there were
(21:03):
some that wouldn't want to be near a microphone and
be asked to sing because you wouldn't want to ruin
that was. But again, you come from the rock world,
which probably is a little more genuine than the pop
world where everything is manufactured. Did you feel like these
country guys consistently actually had a vocal talent that maybe
(21:24):
sometimes you had to cover up when you're in the
rock world at all. Um, you know, it's kind of situational. Um,
for the most part, Yes, most of them are are,
especially nowadays. Um. In our world, we a lot of
strong vocalists and strong songwriters. You know, early on, before
(21:45):
we had proven our concept as a company as a business,
we you know, the fruit wasn't as right when you
go pick it off the tree, so it required a
little more artist development and help at the time. But
but now nowadays everyone's coming in pretty pretty buttoned up.
What was the first big album that you worked on
when you got here and they said this is the project.
It was Jake, It was Jake. I did um. I
(22:05):
did a song. My very first tracking session with him
was a song, uh called keeping It Country. And then
that was kind of my audition in that world. And
I owe a lot to Jake because Jake, just I
thought the idea was cool. He's like, yeah, let's get
this rock guy and then we'll have the songwriter Rodney
Class in there to keep it country, but we'll do
something totally new. So Jake took kind of the big risk. Um.
(22:29):
He was working with Tony Browne at the time, who
if anyone was aware of record producers, Tony is an
absolute legend. UM and Uh, I did the one song,
and I remember I was down in um Kabbo, San
Lucas with friends and then I got a phone call
from Gary Overton, who was running Sony at the time,
and he was like, I wanted to come to Nashville.
I want to hang with you and talk to you
a little bit because I think we want to get
(22:50):
you to finish the Jake record. And I'm like, well,
damn okay. That was pretty exciting for me, kind of
a big get. UM. So I flew back sat with Gary. UM,
we had a great me and then it was decided
that we would we'd finished off the record and um,
Barefoot Blue Night wasn't a part of that at the time.
We kind of cut four or five songs, used up
(23:10):
his budget. UM. And at the very end, the last
day in the studio, Jake shows up and he's playing
this demo. He's like, what do you think this song?
We're all like, this is awesome, this is great, but
we've spent all your money. I don't know how we're
gonna pull this off. And we went back to the label,
tried to get an extra few extra grand to go
(23:30):
get a band and cut this song, and we couldn't
get it. Well, they said no to the money. They
were like, you've got I think they said you've got
twenty seven dollars left, and we're like okay. And that
was what was left in his recording budget for that
album cycle. And he had some other great songs on
the record, so it wasn't like we were panicking going like,
oh man, we need to we need the silver bullet um.
(23:51):
So we decided to just build it like make computer music,
like make you build a beat. And we had enough
money in the budget hire one musician and had one
guy out of his band and and uh, I had
Rodney Clauson sing the harmonies and it's me and my
pro tools guy and Rodney doing the whoa doing all that,
and I'm playing some guitar and bassed on it. Like
(24:12):
we just put it together, um and Uh, it kind
of created this weird little programmed sound track sound that
wasn't a band and it was one of the I
mean that it totally opened the door for me here
in Nashville. What a how many times though, does it
happen where somebody goes, this is a song, because it
feels like every single was the and I know it's
(24:33):
not true, but lady, Yeah, everybody has a massive song
that they were like, you know, we were done with
the record and they and we found this song on
the ground walking in. It was to scratched up CD
and when he only played for three seconds, but we
had a feeling that was the three seconds we needed.
It feels like that's a lot where people come in
last minute and try to get a song. What do
a lot of them not get on? And those are
are dead stories that could have been the greatest story
(24:55):
of all time. Um, well, you definitely get pitched a
lot of songs. So I just I just had my
last three days with Morgan in the studio and Matt.
We were getting pitched a ton of song. I can
only imagine. It's terrifying. I'm going, oh no, because they're coming.
It's it's everyone's Hail Mary. So it's their best shot
that they've done that month. And you know there's we
actually ended up cutting a few and that came in
(25:15):
We just had to um um. But yeah, I mean
we try to cut everything that sounds good. When we
try to make the exception to just if it's great,
we just find a way to finish it off. But
you know, there's probably tons of certain circumstances where the great,
the great ones go unfound. That last one though, like
a lot of people come in here. You know, we
were doing with the record We're a day over. There
(25:38):
was the last song. Why is that? Is it? Because
it's the new shiny thing and people are so passionate
about it because they just heard it. That's a huge part. Yeah,
a lot of a lot of great songs get lost
because the artist will move on. It'll get old when
the kids right. You know, if we just released a
record and they start writing new music, that first stuff
(25:58):
will never get They'll be I'm amazing songs and we'll
just be sitting there go no no, no, no, no,
hold on, this is still really good. But then they'll
just move on and want to pitch the song because
they've written something else that they think is cooler. Do
you ever listen to old stuff that you've done just
in Nashville, Because I'll listen to old jokes I've told
on stage or bits that I've done in the radio,
and I'm like, oh, man, I'm a lot better than that. Now.
If you were to listen to Barefoot Blue G nine,
(26:20):
just sit and listen, would you go, that's what I'm
talking about? Or would you go, oh, I've actually learned
a lot of things since then, and I would do
it a little differently now. I always feel shame when
I hear them. It's I feel shame all the time
or anything I've ever done, but you you do, oh yeah.
It takes me a long time to forget every step
of the way. It's usually I don't know, eighteen months
later I can hear it and go, oh, yeah, that's cool.
(26:42):
When you don't hear every edit or every decision you
made in the whole song, or do you get in
the middle of it, because I'll do this in writing
and go, I don't know if it is good anymore
because you spent so long inside of it that you
now just have to go on instinct. And sometimes you
really have to fight that because because my job is
to just always be the answer. Guy. No, that's it.
We're doing this. Go in this. I'm like the doubt killer.
(27:02):
But secretly I don't know. Man, whenever you record Cruise,
because that again was another one of those songs that
kind of turned the industry on its ear, I wasn't
in Nashville yet, but even I remember it mostly because
it crossed over, right, because that's how big Cruise got. Like,
as you're recording that song, because you recorded so many songs,
do you feel it? Then you're like, oh my god,
(27:24):
this one could be monster. That one felt pretty special.
It was pretty It just I don't know how to
describe it. It felt so obvious. It just had a
lot of boxes checked. And even if if it gets
stuck in my head, I'm pretty jaded and I tend
to I can be pretty pretty cynical outlook on on
all of it, just because I do it so much.
And if it gets stuck in my head and breaks
(27:45):
through all of the other songs I'm working on, it's
usually a pretty good sign. And um, you know, we
were all walking around singing that song just while we
were working on it. We're pretty excited about it, and
you weren't surprised by the success. Um, I was really
surprised at how fast thing has happened. Like you can
never guess it's going to be like that. That was
a full lightning in a bottle moment um. But you
(28:08):
we knew it was going to do something. You just
had no idea it was going to be that. You know,
it was crazy that one was wild you and Morrigan.
I mean, you guys did whiskey glasses together, and so
with that relationship, because again it's not like you and
Morgan just got together. Now you've been working together for
a while. What was it like with Morgan as a
new artist when he was signed over a Big Aloud initially?
(28:29):
Man that Um, I remember the day he felt like
he just walked off the street into my studio and
we're like, who is this kid? The skinny, long haired
kid at the time, and he brought his his main
collaborator and I think it was a guitar player's band
at the time, and they sat in my studio and
played a bunch of songs that he had written and
you're like, okay, wow, I mean for a guy who's
(28:51):
just had no frame of reference and no exposure. It's
a great songwriters. These are pretty good shape. You know,
he understood songwriting, but his ability to sing was that
Florida's remember that he sang Eric church is Talladega and
he sang it absolutely perfect. He sang every single lick
that Eric did. Remember, Seth and I just sort of
(29:14):
looked at each other and we're like, holy crap, our
jaws were dropping and uh, and you could just tell
Morgan didn't really understand how good he was. He hadn't
been exposed to other people at the time, and um,
there was just an innocence to it which was mind blowing.
We it was kind of obviously at the time the
kid just needed a great song and he was gonna
he was gonna go. And then once he came in
(29:36):
and started um writing, I think when first or second
or third, right, I think it was the first time
he got in with Craig, they wrote Chasing You Together,
which is ended up being a huge song. Yeah, maybe
one of my favorites. Still. Yeah, it's great, and we
kind of sat on it for a little bit because
we didn't want to like we needed a twenty minute set,
(29:56):
so we were trying to go with the energetic songs
and and tem moore tempo songs. And finally it came
around to finishing office first project and we we cut
that song right away. You can see it as soon
as we released it, and he started following the day
to that one just started rising the whole time, who
are you working with right now? Like? Who are you
in the middle of a project with? Now? Um, Well,
(30:17):
now that everyone's back on the road and working, I have,
you know, access to the artists Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, so
I kind of have to whittle away at everything. Um.
But um, I just finished my last three days with
Morgan on his new music. I say last three days,
but there's always great songs that come in and I'm
sure there'll be a fire drill sometime here. Um. And
(30:41):
uh so I got a project on that I'm finishing
up new earned music, which is really exciting. We're about
to drop a new Hardy record which is exciting. Um.
And then uh yeah, once the Morgan records finished, then
it's then it's cleaning up what should say cleaning up?
But we working on all the young kids that we
have coming up. I'm really excited about a new girl
named Lauren walk Cons. I just did three days with her,
(31:02):
and she's an incredible talent, really really strong pen It's
amazing how she just keeps getting better and she's twenty
three years old. It's wild to see how fast her
songwriting is developing. And she's got a really original voice,
and you know those two things are. It's a pretty
potent combination made for you. Such a good song. Love it.
(31:29):
I think what you guys did with the sonically is perfect.
How do you judge when to scale a song back?
Because I would think that making a song simple is
probably just as hard as making a song complex. That's
a song that I think simplicity actually showcases what the
song is saying in the message sending. Is that an
(31:49):
internal struggle you have at times? Uh? Yes, it is
a challenge. Look for me personally to to just stop
and let the let the vocal and let the suplicity. Um,
I'm getting better at it, but it was originally a
really hard thing for me to do. But that song
was it had a pretty strong demo when it came in,
and it was obviously a song that was going to
(32:11):
be about the message, and it was an opportunity for
to Jake to sing in his you know, full kind
of baritone chest voice, which is awesome um um. So
it was really about staying away from that, not trying
to bury everything and guitar parts and other melodies and stuff.
It was the writing really did the job on that one.
(32:32):
I would feel like, for example, if I go and
there's a joke I didn't and I just actually found
out it worked really well, but I didn't put any
time into it. I feel like I'm cheating a little
bit if it's just like a such a like a
low hanging fruit and I'm like, man, I didn't put
much effort into this joke. It kills so let me
just do it. But then I feel like I'm not
working hard, And I think my struggle would be like, well,
I found this song and it's very simple, but if
(32:55):
I don't put like tracks on it, it just feel
like I'm working hard. I mean I went through that
phase for sure. Yeah, but there's equal value and knowing
when to not you know, Down to the Honky Talk
is like my favorite that wasn't a number one. I
love that freaking song. The production on down to the
Honky Talk is a plus. Thank you. I mean that
song was amazing again another a group of amazing songwritters
(33:18):
Rodney and Luke Lair on that one. Luke always has
interesting music in every song, he writes, He's a talented kid.
What do these guys say about you to work with you?
What would they say if I would like what it
hit Jake and be like, yo, what is Joey like
as a producer? What would he say? He might say,
I'm neurotic or I have a strong attention to detail
and make him sing the song a lot? So you
(33:39):
do you make him singing a lot? Sometimes just just
in general. Yeah, there's some directors that will make you go,
do it again, do it again, do it again. Well,
there's there's value in singers can do a lot of
things that, um, you can't ask them to do. There's
just value and repetition. Their voice will do certain things
that I wouldn't be able to ask him to make
(34:01):
his voice crack that certain way. And it only happens
because it was his fifth take and he hadn't drank
any water and his voice was dry, and it cracked
and it sounded really great on that one line, which
made the you know, made it sound more intimate. Or
made him sound more sad or or or the opposite
made him sound happier. Um. And those are just things
you can't ask people to do, even though you might
(34:22):
want it. And if when you do ask, you can
really shut down a singer's vocal take, you can kind
of make him think too much, you know, just trying
to keep him in that spontaneous space. So um and
a lot of that cool magic stuff just comes out
of repetition, just over and over until your break them.
That's what I hear. Well, if they don't know the song,
if they're coming in and going like you got the
(34:43):
lyrics for this, Oh, does that happen? Sometimes? If it's
if it's like a fresh outside song that they haven't
had a chance to practice, we go through this phase
where they'll sing it a bunch of times, but it's
still just it just sounds new, you know, and it
doesn't sound it sounds like they're still learning it. Um.
So I always try and encourage them to listen to
a lot and practice it so when they're coming in,
we don't have to stick in a million times. Can
(35:06):
you just listen to music for enjoyment, just pure enjoyment
sometimes without getting extremely analytical about the year and the technology,
how they recorded, were they all in the same room
or they like Sometimes I tend to listen to a
lot of podcasts and laugh. U say in my truck
to get away from it. That I understand because I
I just get away from music too, because I'm just
(35:27):
in it so much now, but I'm not in it
in it like you are where you're actually you can
probably separate all of the things just by listen all together.
You can still go to do and separate all the sounds. Yes, yeah, yeah,
there's times there's certain records which you know what you
just listened to because they're awesome and there's no point
in criticizing them. Because what is your favorite record full album? Man,
(35:51):
I'm going to give a very generic ancer. It's probably
uh A C D C Back and Black. I feel
like that's for its time, is the pre record, and
it's a pretty easy one to listen to. But I
don't I don't really have a favorite band or genre.
I kind of I don't know. If it's melodic and
it's catchy and I want to get stuck in my head,
(36:12):
I'll listen to it. I'm not really super selective in
that regard. If you're just relaxing, though, because I definitely
have music, I will go too because it's comfortable, because
I already know what and I already really like it.
And there are also times where I'm just listening to music,
to her new stuff, but I know I'm gonna go
John Mary Continuum or Counting Crows August and Everything After,
(36:33):
or Casey musk Rat. There are these records that I
just love and feel comfortable with because it puts me
what are those records for you? I love the Fleetwood
Mac playlist. I'll go through that Rumors. I'll bring that
Rumors record out pretty hard. Um. I listened to a
ton of Pink Floyd as a kid, and I'll do
that every once in a while because you chose it
or because your parents had. My older brother was playing it.
(36:56):
I learned. I got a lot of my musical tastes
from well, my older brother was listening too. Um yeah,
it's records like that. I went through a huge A C.
D C phase before I moved here. It was like
the only thing we all listened to and we were
jamming in the studio and um ah, but I went
through a huge tool phase I mean, I think they're fantastic.
(37:18):
I have some amazing records. What about Tool to you
is great because I know Tool. I was a big
rock kid, alternative kid, and I could probably you know,
I could do skills if I do all of in
my mouth. But what maybe I'm I wasn't in music
enough at the time to know what separates Tool? Right?
Is Tool great for me? I I love the musicianship
(37:38):
of it all. It's it's like super nerd music, but
it's still really simple. Um. And honestly, I listened to
the with when it came to Tool. I was so
obsessed with the drums and the guitar playing on it,
and I thought what Maynard doing. What Maynard was doing
was awesome, But that wasn't where I went. I was
just so so in that heard with the rhythm section
(38:01):
and their their decisions in that world where they have
changed time signatures and do all this stuff. It's I
just thought it was really cool. And they always have
this really dark I don't know they have. They've chosen
the aesthetic and they've really stuck to it and nailed
it right, and so um, you know that's that's that's
when you go to when you're feeling in a certain
way and you just do you want to rock, or
if you're working out and you want to hear something mean.
(38:22):
I think people will be surprised to know that, as
you said, and I would classify it this way. To
the Tool, it's kind of nerd music because what they do,
they they're so specific and so good and so precise.
But when you hear Tool, not knowing that it's precision
and art, you just here, you know, just to the energy. Yeah,
the juxtaposition is kind of odd there of being expert
(38:44):
musicians and just kind of the charisma of that music
because it is it's it's dark, Yeah, it is, it's tough.
You got to be in the right mood. It's it
is like I said, it's not on my playlist every
single day, um, but you know, I just go to
it every once in a while. On Morgan's Dangerous album
the double album, you did you not only produced it,
(39:07):
you did background vocals. You played some on it as well.
Right do you do that because you're like, Okay, only
I'm the one that can get this right. And how
I'm picturing it not not going you're the best ever,
but going this how I'm seeing it and I think
only I can pull this off. It's honestly, it's um,
I'm my first instinct is to hand the guitar to
somebody a million times better than me. But um, it's
(39:28):
usually that usually happens when I'm just alone with the
song and I'll be mixing or yeah, it usually happens
when it's mixing and a new idea happens and Morgan's
not there. I don't have a guitar player around me,
so um, I mean, it's ugly, it doesn't look pretty,
but I'll get a I'll get I'll get a guitar
part out of my hands, and if I can, if
it's something in my range, I'll sing a part that
(39:49):
I'll hear. And those things. Usually it's I'll just put
an idea down and then go make Morgan singing or
whoever it is singing. And sometimes they'll be like, now
that sounds good, leave it in there. And you still
you do so I didn't get paid. It's the background saying.
So when you produce a record like like the Morrigan
Win that's been the biggest record ever, you know, uh,
(40:10):
you get points on that, right, so so you continue
to get paid. Yeah, godly wow between that record because
maybe you haven't even been paid fully on that one
in the nickelback stuff. Do you make more money off
this Morgan stuff? Well? Yes, Oh that's all you gotta say.
I'm good, that's it. Yeah, but my business structure is
(40:32):
a lot different on the record company. Oh I hear
you though, man, that's awesome. What's the idea behind Big
Loud Mountain? Big Loud Mountain, Yeah, that was the um.
That was the We've changed all the names now it's
just Big Loud Now. Wasn't that like a one stop
kind of deal for new like or explain what the
idea when we first came when when we first just
(40:56):
formed our our our businesses to to do whatever we
plan on doing. Um, that was the name of the
publishing company that we put our artists on. Got it.
And now it's just exists within Big Yeah. So shirt,
all the shirts turning out, and it's just it's just
all gonna be Big Loud. You ever had anybody in
your studio that you are kind of like, I cannot
(41:17):
believe this staffany right now, I'm producing blank You're like,
I don't, I'm gonna play it cool. And they're gonna
think I'm totally just being Joey normal dude, but you're
like waly crow man. I feel like I got really
spoilt making the last two Hicks tapes for Hardy. I
feel like it covered the entire town. Everybody coming ever
come in, and then you know I was the cool
(41:38):
some of the cooler ones were, of course. You know,
anytime you get to sit in a studio with Ronnie Dune,
that's amazing. He's be yeah. I mean, just listen he
still it sounds like it's the late eighties early ninees.
When he sings, it's insane how good of a singer
he is. Um. But Joe Diffy came through. That was
so cool to get to hang with Joe Diffy, Tracy
(41:59):
Lawrence came through. Um, And it's like all the people
from when I was a kid, and like the ron
the Ronnie things awesome. Ronnie and I've formed friendship and
we go to dinner and stuff, and there are times
where I'm normal fremd it. There were times when I'm like,
this is freaking Ronnie done. Like I try to be
as normal as possible, but it's like a lot of
my childhood was in a small town in Arkansas listening
to every song on the Brooks And it doesn't matter
(42:21):
the tape. It was a tape. I remember when the
first time I heard Boots Scooting Boogie or Neon Moon,
this is great. So I imagine it's pretty hard to
get you to if I were just moved to town,
to be hard to get you to do anything for me. UM,
production wise, you're probably pretty booked out. Pretty booked out
for how long? Uh? What about? Like it's for an
(42:45):
infinite amount of time. It's hard when you're your your
your producer career turned into a record company that's a
publishing company and a management company. So you're kind of
just I'm kind of locked into any of the artists
that we sign. And do you spend a lot of
time strategize saying as well or because again, you have
such an I wouldn't gonna say dual role because it's
more than two things, trull role, quad role. You have
(43:07):
so many roles that you're doing. What do you find
that you are the best at just naturally and what
has been the hardest part of it for you as
an executive? UM, I am a producer by trade, I'm
a studio introverted, studio rat all day long. That's my strength.
I'm the executive side of things. That responsibility falls heavily
(43:31):
on Seth. He's uh, I'm always there to help out
at thirty thou feet. But when it comes to being
the CEO and and who the executives answered to, that
that has to be Seth. That's you have to have
a real clean chain of command in that scenario. Um So, myself,
Seth and Craig we counsel regularly together, but the chief
(43:51):
messager in the building is Seth. And so that allows,
you know, Craig to squirrel away in his room and
and be the badass songwriter he is. And then that
allows me to stay in record producer in our space,
song space, you know, I spend the majority of my
time in the studio with the artists. I've got two
more things for you. First one, I'm gonna ask about
(44:12):
Morgan a little bit in that this new project you're
working on, what's different, what's the same. You don't to
be super specific, obviously I wouldn't want you to do that,
but what I don't know, give me something here. What
did you guys decide we're going to be the priorities.
I feel like the songwriting is great again. He's Um,
he's continue It's it's always mind blowing how he continues
(44:36):
to grow as a songwriter. UM, he's written a ton
of this record. Um. You know, we've clearly there's a
little lane has opened with the more progressive sounding songs,
with songs with beats on it, right like Wasted on
You and you Proof. So we've done a couple of those, um,
and we've stuck to some of the more country sounding
(44:58):
songs like we've kind of done it's it's it's evolved
and there's kind of some new musical spaces we've gone into.
But at the same time, we've stayed true to what
the fans like and we've we've we've stayed the things
we know they're gonna like, and then we've tried a
couple of new things that we hope they're gonna like.
Any features, UM not at the moment. Well, you can
(45:21):
ask me once we get off and I'll do it
if you need me to go and do honestly my
agenda A yeah, but I'll wait until we're done here.
We'll get it off. We'll get off this so okay,
Well there's my Morgan question. Is it a lot of songs? Um,
yet to be determined, but probably a lot of songs.
You gotta be you have to. You can't set us
(45:41):
up like that with all those songs last time. They'll
be like, well, here's just a half a couple, Yeah exactly, Yeah, No,
we've there's Morgan is in the sweet spot right now.
The town is empowered around him. A lot of the
writers really like writing with him. Um, and so there's
a lot of songs coming our way. Okay, that's all
I need there, But what's the goal? Here we are
(46:07):
today mill of November. This may be a couple weeks
before it even gets on the air, but here you are.
You've done everything as far as at the height, meaning musically.
I don't know anybody in town who can just go
definitively go yeah, I'm better enjoy more. They can't. They can't.
Now I'm not saying you're saying that either, but I'm saying, well,
what is there to do that you haven't done yet?
(46:29):
That is still exciting? Do you? My favorite is still
making first records. That's the most exciting time. Um, when
you're building that frame of reference. With a young artists,
you're watching their eyes just pop out of their head
every corner they turn around, or every phase of the process. UM.
(46:49):
I love making new styles of music within the genre
and seeing if they work, and learning from the release
and pivoting if we need too. So artist development is
always been rewarding. For as long as I've been doing this,
I love it. It's my favorite UM and I just
(47:10):
want to continue to do that. I wanna. I'm really
I've never had success with a female artist. I want
to do that. UM. And we've launched our rock label
and who's on the rock label. We have a group
by the name of Blame My Youth. UM. We have
another group we put some of Hardy's record out through
(47:32):
the rock label. UM and we have another individual by
the name of Jaguar Twin. It's all really alternative rock based. UM.
We just signed some new kids called Yam House. We
have another guy by the name of let Down. He's more.
It's also in my family called me. Let Down stole
(47:53):
that from me. They titled every Christmas card Deer let Down.
Do Do you feel like there's a resurgence coming? I hope.
So I've been listening to a lot of all nation
these days, a lot of just turnative rock. I'm I
don't know why it's inspiring to listen to. I feel
like they've it's really changed from you know, vintage keyboard
(48:14):
music to it's kind of coming back into mainstream four chords,
lots of good hooks, lots of melody, kind of good
literal lyrics. You're seeing it. Really, it's really been moving
over the last eighteen months. That genre is I think
it's for me personally, it's probably changing the most right now,
and you're starting to see things leak over into the
larger genres. So um, I'm hoping that trend follows and
(48:37):
you know, eventually people get fatigued of computer music and
they like hearing bands again. So it's all cyclical, right, yeah,
totally everything it will come back around. You're I mean,
you're you're hearing it already. There's there's there's pop punk
on top forty, you know what I mean. And there's
there's guitars and drums and stuff that's that are coming back.
So it's gonna come back in some form. So well, yeah,
(48:58):
I would love it. I've I would love to have
one of those things on the rock lay to do
really well or break or at least start to get noticed.
Some of them are doing good. That you know, as
long as you're seeing those ticket sales increase and the
merch increase and the streaming increased, you know you're you're
head in the right direction. Yeah, let's get you another
the Maserati. You know what I'm saying. I don't even
know the mara. Let's get you know, the Maserati. That's
(49:19):
what I'm saying. I will end with this. I when
I was thinking about and I was just kind of
looking through some notes about some of the stuff that
you've done, and just look through the catalog. I think
one of my favorite songs, and this is gonna be
really douche because I didn't see it written. Did you do?
You did all the hardy stuff? Right? That makes sense
that uh he went to Jared, That's I think that's
(49:41):
my would be my might be my favorite thing that
I see that you have done. That I'm like, god, dang,
like like just when I hear that song and go,
that's different, that's good. That makes me feel something, not
sad or happy, but it's just like the first time
I heard it I was like, man, that is it.
You can when even even now even I can hear
(50:02):
that stuff, and I can hear that we had so
much fun making that music like it is it is.
It is in the box, but it's outside the box,
like all the hard stuff is. And him and I
bond over that two thousands Pacific Northwest rock scene. You know,
the stone Table pilots and the sound guard in the
Austin chains, um, all of that active rock that we
(50:23):
all kind of grew up on. Um. Yeah, as important
as a songwriting, just sonically like those two. It just
it's just like the perfect couple. The music, the lyrics,
the guitars, the big drum fills, yeah, the old big
rock fills. It's like arena rock meets country music meets
(50:44):
Hardy Hardy because there's there's nobody like them, and it
really works live. It's almost we almost think more about
the live show than we do streaming in in radio.
Come out and do that. He shot out from the ground.
I went to Morgan show and we had missed the
early part we got we missed Hardy, and it was
the whole disaster getting over there. But then we get
(51:06):
there and he shoots up from under the stage and
they do the song and I was like, oh, I
got damn song my song. So anyway, great job. You
don't need to hear me say a great job. But
there was the two Manserati's that you drove the one
and in your assistant drove beside you. Okay, you wanted
to switch halfway. I like that. Just congratulations, super excited
(51:28):
to finally meet you. I heard about you for so
long and just really cool. And I appreciate the time
you spent with me here today. Thanks for having me.
I really appreciate it. There is Joey moy So anyway,
I'll do that. I'll do the do the feature. Um
what I'll do is I'll drop nine bars and odd numbers,
winning for sure.
Episode three seventy five. Joey moy producer of sixty two
number one songs over thirty five albums. He's been a
major producer. I mean it's like five songs. He's produced Nickelback,
How You Remind And here's the thing, by the way,
we can't play music on these podcasts anymore. We'll get sued,
but I can sing him. He has produced Nickelback, How
You Remind Me? This is He You Remind Me? Rock
(00:23):
Star and the entire album it's on because we all wanted.
It's a big, big rocks. Snug him and photograph. What
was on Jim's head? The question there people ask if
what was on Jimmy's head? And it was Joey's head. Yeah, Joey,
this is Joey. That's what was weird to me. I
don't know whereds the songs, but yes, that's this is
the Joey and what was on Joey's head? Uh, Country
(00:45):
number one, Jaco and Barefoot, Blue g Night f G
L Cruz, Chris. I could keep going big into the
Morgan wall In world. He's a whole part of that
team from the beginning. So it's a really interesting mind
of of a producer, also a songwriter, also somebody who
moved to town who had worked in other genres and
(01:07):
that's it. Loved it. Here's Joey Moy What was on
Joey his Head? Episode three seventy five. By the way,
he's the partner and producer of Big Loud, Like he's
one of the big guys, are making all the decisions. Uh,
Joey Moy Here he is on the Bobby Cast. Have
we ever met in person? I think I don't. I
(01:27):
don't think so. I think we may have shaken hands,
and I didn't think so either. But this is the
longest we've ever spoke right now, in this four seconds.
I uh, because obviously I know a whole lot about you,
and in this town, especially when it's awards season, you
just never know who you run into or say hi
too quickly, and so it is a real treat to
(01:48):
talk to you. I'm a big, big fan. Just to
go back a little bit, we had Chad Kroeger on
because I'm I love Nickelback and have and um, I
love your music that you did with them. But Chad
was on and I was like, Hey, what's up. I
didn't realize you're Joey. Yes, and what was on Joey's head?
I didn't realize that was you? That was me? That
(02:10):
to me, of everything is the most because that that
that line is such a staple of like my early twenties.
And I asked him about it. I was like, Hey,
so what was on Joey's head? And he went on
this thing and that's when it was, Oh, that's Joey here.
So I just want to start with that line and
that song. I would imagine you never thought in a
(02:31):
million years that would become it's a meme now, but
it's all over the place when you heard the line
where you're like, I don't know, Chad, not not at all,
to be honest, because he had written that song. He'd
come off the road and he had written the verse.
He'd probably written a seven minute verse of that song
with all that imagery, and he started that was a
(02:52):
man that was probably New Year's two thousand five when
we took that picture something like that long time ago
when we took that picture and U uh, the picture
is hilarious because our eyes are completely blistering red and
we're having the best time of our life. Um, and uh,
it was a champagne chiller, and when you turn it
upside down it looks like the Stanley Cup, like a
(03:13):
little miniature Stanley cup. So I don't know if he
told you this story. He did, but it's always interesting
to hear another version of the same story. So so
I'm listening to the pictures when he holds up though
in the video right, correct? And so why did you
have it on your head though? Because, like any good
drunk Canadian, when you see something that looks like the
Stanley cups, go straight up and hoisted and then for
(03:35):
some reason it ended up upside down on my head
and someone snapped the picture. It was all just like
cosmic timing. How many times a week do you get
asked that question about what was on Joey's head? It
used to be, uh, like when the song was big,
and probably for about six seven years, it would be
like I was running from that question, like I had
had a lot of it um. But honestly, over the
(03:57):
last since I've been here and no one really asked
me at it. Like it's just recently with the new
music coming out that they're doing that people are asking
me again, are people mind blown when they figure out
it is you and that song in that line sometime
forever because I was I was like, oh my god,
it's like the biggest craziest thing. I was like, that's Joey,
He's coming in here. That's so famous. Uh, well again,
(04:17):
super pumped you're here. You've been such, you know, a
pivotalbal such a pivotal part of just music in general,
pop country for the past twenty thirty years or so. Um,
when you moved to Nashville, how old were you? Um?
I think I was thirty two thirty three? And why why,
(04:39):
like why did you come here? Um? You know, it
was rock music at that time, was pop music, and
it kind of just became not pop music. We had,
you know, Kanye was making huge records, and Justin Timberlake
was making huge records, and Katie Perry and Max Martin
and the Max Martin and Dr Luke Eric kind of
took over in top forty so that guitar bass, melodic
(05:00):
guitar based rock was no longer pop music. So it
was definitely we were all kind of looking at a
different future at that point. And um, you know, my
my course had run with Nickel back with those guys
working with him, and um, I kind of cleaned up
all my my rock and roll loose ends, all the
records I was working on. I kind of finished up
and myself and a day one guy for me who's
(05:24):
a Canadian country artist, Damed Dallas Smith. Um, he was
in a rock band at the same at the same time,
and uh, you know his course is kind of run
with that group. And he texted me one night and
he's like, he you want to go make a country record?
And we had threatened each other with making a country
record on him man probably ten years prior to that,
and um, yeah, finally he texted me out of the
(05:44):
blue and I was like, yeah, I'm I'm in. I'm
ready to go. At that point, I was becoming a
songwriter and H Nashville was a logical step for me
to come down and just sort of continue that university
of becoming a better songwriter. Um so, my manager at
the time booked us a trip through an Nashville. On
my first day here. I met my current business partners.
(06:04):
My first day first day here, I wrote with a
handful of guys at Big Loud, and I met Craig
and I met Seth England. Seth was had just been,
had just been as signed his job as creative manager
there from intern like he was, um and uh, I
fell in love with the place right away. Dallas and
I spent a week writing his first first country records.
(06:26):
So we kind of got to hit a lot of
great writers. We had Craig Wiseman, we had Rodney Clawson,
Chris Tompkins, Tom Douglas and she's Danny Rton and Jens
Shot like all these great country writers and m he
came down for a week, had a blast. Um. I
hit it off with Craig and Seth. At that time,
(06:46):
I was doing a lot of artist development on the
rock and roll side, like just signing young kids to
production deals and connecting the dots with songwriters and then
making a product and then going and selling it to
a record company and then fingers crossed, get to make
that record or if not, maybe one of the next thing. Um.
So I started had that element and they wanted to
do that as well, and they had the songwriting side
(07:08):
of things. So we were just a great marriage. And
it was Dallas and Default. Yeah that makes sense. Very
first kid that I ever recorded that got on the radio,
really very very very first default or default? However, you
say I worked, You know, I've worked in every format
from pop to rock to hip hop. But I used
(07:29):
to play used to play that default or default song?
What was it wasted? My time wasted? My time wasted? Yeah,
that's right here. You remember that one, Mike, I remember
that song. It was a big song. It was a
big one everywhere. Yeah, that was that was awesome. So
what is what? What was his? What was Dallas story?
(07:51):
I an't we still making country music? But I don't
has he try? Has he really put an effort into
the States to try to make it? Because I know
he's really good. He's great. I mean he's house old
name in Canada. Um, and we keep running him up
the charts up there. Are you guys still cool? I
asked that question you and Dallas? Yeah totally. I currently
make an a record on him right now. Um. Uh
(08:11):
and a dear friend like a day one kid for me. Um.
But yeah, I mean he his family's in Vancouver, he
lives in Vancouver. That's where he's committed to work and
and stay. Um he comes down here frequently. Um and uh,
you know it's uh, he's not a songwriter and so
it's easier when you are a songwriter to come and
(08:33):
immerse yourself in Nashville and to have that look in
the U S. So, um, really, we're just banking on
a great outside song to come in and you never know.
It's the power of a song. Yeah, he's really good.
He's really good. I mean his voice is second and nine.
It's one of those guys where you go, well, maybe
it hasn't happened here quite yet, but eventually it will
just based on how good he is. Yeah. Yeah, when
(08:53):
you come to Nashville, you mentioned a lot of things.
You said, you know, you had this skill set and
they had this need for that skill set. It's so
you came in so you didn't just come here and
go I'm gonna start producing folks. You came here with
a bigger business. Uh, just kind of an attitude you're
going to do more than just sit in a studio. Yeah.
I was always pretty entrepreneurial. I knew there I needed
certain pieces to to move forward. And it was really
(09:16):
in the song world. I wanted to become a better songwriter. Um,
and I knew just I had to associate myself with
great songwriters and and do it regularly. Um, and unfortunately,
I mean, what happened to my songwriting career has vanished
because production career just took right off. It's hard to
focus it on both, which is totally fine because we
ended up signing a bunch of great songwriters that that
(09:39):
and that's kind of more fun to empower. Anyways, Well,
how do you study in school? Meaning do you go, Okay,
I like music because I know you sing? You did?
I mean, I know you did. You know you're saying
even I have some background tracks you've done before. They
are pretty distinct. So obviously you had this skill set
in music. But how do you end up going into
the production side of it? And why did you choose
(10:00):
that path? Um? Honestly, I got started. I really was
into I started as a recording engineer, and I was
really into the technology side of things. And then I
started working as a recording engineer. And then you know,
if you're not happy making fifteen punk rock songs in
a day and tracking them and mixing them and doing
(10:21):
vocus on them and getting them done in a day,
you know, you really need to start taking control of
the music. So I did that for a few years
and and just naturally, how do you even know that's
a thing. Like where I come from, we wouldn't know
there was that things. Recording engineer, where did you live
and where their studios around? Like, how are you exposed
to even know that there was a person that recorded
and was over that. My guidance counselor in high school
(10:43):
fought Uh. He originally UH sent me to a radio
station in Fort St. John, British Columbia, UH five sixties
c kN L, little AM station up there, and I
got to go. I thought I wanted to work in radio,
and then they kind of put me every where. Um,
I'd sit with the morning guy, and then after that
(11:04):
they'd put me in the they called it the production room,
and they had me it was all real to reel
back then, so they had me cutting all the real
to reels and editing the song list and I kind
of really took to the technology side of it all. Um,
And that was kind of the report that the the
I guess it was the program director at the time,
reported back to my guidance counselor. So my guidance counselor
was like, well, let's try a recording studio. So then
(11:25):
he sent me down to Vancouver UM, which to a man,
it was a studio called Bullfrog Studios, and they did
a work experience thing UM for schools, and I went
down there for three or four weeks and UM, I
got to push the buttons a little and figure out
what it was, and then I kind of decided that
that was my path. I was kind of always into music,
(11:46):
and I was always into the technology side. I was
always the DJ at the high school dance and setting
up the p A. I was that kid, UM, and
it was just natural to end up going to I
wasn't a great student, like I technically haven't graduated high
school and I'm still a science credit short. But this
private college saw it in me and let me come
(12:06):
down there and attend their school. And I just really
took to the technical side of things. What does it
like to have an education system that cares? That's what
I hear that you had a like a counselor that goes, hey,
we're gonna help you. Okay, then work, let me continue
to invest my into you. That's is that normal in
Canada that they care? And yes, I mean he knew
(12:28):
I was such a bad student, Like I was terrible
at math and English and she's my friends classes all
that stuff. I was so bad. Um, but there are
certain things I was really good at. It was really
great history, and I was really great, you know, if
I was passionate and into it. Um. I think I
just kind of had a short attention span. It was
hard for me on things I didn't like. But um,
but he just recognized the things I was passionate about
(12:49):
and pushed me, pushed me there, which I guess I've
never You're the first person that's ever pointed that out. So,
I mean, I've never really thought of it. I mean,
it's a pretty valuable moment in life. You know that
he helped you and then once it wasn't there continue
to help you and see it through. That just wouldn't.
What's it like to have healthcare? Like that's the part
two where I'm like, how do we know health care here?
(13:11):
And we look at you guys, it's like you go
the doctor broken or okay, we're gonna fix that up
for you to take a second, wait and we'll fix
it up here. That, sir, it is different. That took
me a while to wrap my head around and to
know that I know people down here that don't have healthcare.
I was like, wow, you go like if you broke
your foot right now, you'd be in big trouble. Yeah,
just figure it out. And then also, it's cold. This
(13:32):
is my final Candida because we're on a bunch of
cities in Canada to my morning show is and so
it's cold a lot. Yeah to where when it's cold,
when it's just cold, it probably feels pretty warm to
you guys. How do you live in all the cold
all the time. Well, Vancouver isn't as bad. Vancouver's pretty
mild a lot of a lot of the winters. It's
(13:54):
it gets colder here in Nashville and it will be
in Vancouver. You get all that weather. The wind coming
up from the from Hawaii basically ends in Vancouver's. Vancouver's
like I think a Vancouver Seattle totally okay, Yeah, you're
two two and a half hours north basically, and Vancouver,
just most of Canada's is directly on the border right there. Um,
so Vancouver stays. You might get snow a couple of
(14:15):
times in winter, maybe for about a week, week and
a half. Then that kills that kills the romantic version
of Canada that I have in my head. Well, you're
thinking Biglues all the time. Yeah, built of ice. Yeah,
that's it. That's Saskatchewan. Whenever you come to Nashville and
you start to work with the Big Loud, was a
Big Loud shirt when you first got here. Yeah, it
was just the publishing company at the time. It was
(14:36):
Craig's company, UM, and that's where I did my just
a really easy publishing deal with them. They set at
the time was the song plugger Seth England, who's been
a big partner or a Big Loud, my partner at
Big Loud, and Craig Wiseman, who's my other partner songwriter
partner at Big Loud as well. Um. Seth originally started
(14:56):
booking my co writes for me and Uh and they
would just put me the word. Seth was booking them
at like years old, booking for you. I don't see.
I just Craig was here, but I had COVID the
one time he came, so like last minute, I texted
Mike and I was like, I got COVID, I can't
come over. I'm like giving Craig COVID. So I came
over and we did the show. But I saw Craig
(15:17):
at the c m AS a few weeks ago, a
couple of weeks ago, and I went up and I said, hey, Craig.
I never I never never met him, and I usually
just stayed on myself. I don't want to bother anybody,
just generally in live and we talked for a little bit,
and he was obviously super nice, right, just super lovely guy.
Especially I met Craig, But in Seth and I have
only seen each other in passing a few times. Usually
it's because we're somewhere and he's got somebody with him.
(15:39):
And but I tell you the thing about Seth is
every time that most every time that I have gotten
any sort of pushed back from this industry for anything
that I am doing that is slightly different, and he
can just he just has some sense, like Batman knows
what I'm getting crushed. He'll send me a message, you go, like, yo, dude,
hanging in there. It's always people that that are are
pushing the place in different ways that I mean, he
(16:01):
always sends like like a really kind inspirational men. And
I'm telling you, I don't know if he maybe if
my glasses were on, he pinbly knew who I was.
But we haven't spent a whole lot of time together,
but he is, like you, is so instrumental in a
big part of country music over the last ten years.
What is he like? Steth oh Man, I'll say I
knew Um within the first couple of weeks of knowing
(16:21):
those guys, I knew he was going to be a
huge He was a piece that somebody like me required. Um.
I remember coming here and he'd be he was still
doing going to all the writer rounds, and he had
the standard, the standard creative manager evenings that they have
to do, and he would take me out with him,
(16:43):
and I swear I would shake a hundred hands a
night with him. And I've never had anybody coming to
my life that way who was just opening the every
door to the town basically. So he's one of those
just natural connectors, natural senior executive kid. He was just
he's just got It's the easiest thing from to doing
his day. He's he's so gifted in that senior management role.
(17:07):
Um and Craig. You know, Craig's a scatter brain songwriter
and I'm a scatter brain producer. We need that one
anchor who's creative and can follow through and make sure
we're all on track. And that's him. He's truly gifted
in that. In that world. When you hop into a
studio here for the first time, are you like, all right, well,
we're about to start a whole new version of of
what I'm doing sonic, Like, do you have that feeling?
(17:28):
Or you just like he's just another day? Uh? You mean?
Like no? Like Jay, Let's say, Jay, I was looking
at your credits and the first thing that I saw
that I recognized was Jake had a credit doing Barefoot
Blue gen Night. Now you have been doing rock for
the most part, and and this is your first credit.
I'm sure maybe worked on other stuff, but were like, Okay,
well it's time to do some country here. Let's see
(17:49):
how this goes. I mean, is that kind of the feeling? Yeah,
I was terrified, Um, because we came the world I
came from. You know, you're working with rock bands. There's
usually one or two good got musicians in the group,
and then the rest of the guys, if they're playing
on the record, they're learning how to play their parts,
and it's a slower Yeah, it's just a lot of No,
not at all. You're you're working with the band, right.
(18:11):
That's that's the difference of rock and roll. It's like
this Petrie dish of whatever it is in a small
town somewhere in Alberta, and it grows into this thing.
You you capture that and and and build that where
you know, here's obviously different. You have this songwriting factory
and musician factory and all these huge giant tools in
the toolbox to use, but up there you don't. So
(18:32):
I was pretty terrified when I came down. I didn't
really understand the whole session life. And um, I remember
wearing Seth out like I'm gonna need this much time
and i don't know who these guys are and I'm
gonna have to do this and this, and then Seth,
you know, calm me down. He gave me two hours
of overtime on my first session, so I had five
hours to get in a whole song done, which now
we can get like four songs done and that much
(18:54):
time after being here. But I was terrified, and uh,
I guess Craig had our Seth had told Craig that
I was freaking out about having to come in and
cut this Jake music and having no framework reference. So
Craig basically grabbed me by the ear and took me
down to one of his demo sessions and he was like, okay,
sit here, watch And then I watched, and I'm like, oh,
I get this. Did you find you find it was
easier or you find that you were just so ready
(19:17):
for it? Um? I It took me a while to
fully embrace the Nashville tracking system. I didn't speak the
language very well. I was used to just speaking to
other musically illiterate people who just sang their ideas out right.
Where here there's a kind of super defined language. It's
really they've simplified it down so you can communicate shorthand
(19:38):
through a creative process, which is great. But it took
me a while to learn that. So it caused me
to the result was I sat in my studio and
played as much as I could and program drums and
did as much as I could myself, and then I
would just bring guys in to the studio and work
with them the old fashioned way, the way I did
in Vancouver. So I just have one guitar player sit
with me and we would just sing parts back and
(19:58):
forth and figure out how to do it. But now
I feel like I'm a I was saying, I'm trying
to be more Dan huff uh and be able to like,
you know, read charts, which I can now and it
took me a while to figure out how to do that,
uh and just speak more of the session player language
so um. And that came kind of by demand. The
(20:18):
business grew enough and I just had to make more
music faster, and so I had to go embrace the
the tracking, the tracking room style of making records, which
I absolutely love doing now. I can't believe it took
me so long. It's so fun and you learn, you
kind of get to be a GM of sports team
at that point. You kind of figure out what lane
you're going in and then you cast the musicians appropriately
(20:40):
for that, right. So I have kind of have three
or four crews that I put together for certain styles
of music. Whenever these country artists come in when you
first get here, and my experience was, oh, they can
all sing, like pretty much. I was surprised because where
I came from him pop they couldn't. And there were
(21:03):
some that wouldn't want to be near a microphone and
be asked to sing because you wouldn't want to ruin
that was. But again, you come from the rock world,
which probably is a little more genuine than the pop
world where everything is manufactured. Did you feel like these
country guys consistently actually had a vocal talent that maybe
(21:24):
sometimes you had to cover up when you're in the
rock world at all. Um, you know, it's kind of situational. Um,
for the most part, Yes, most of them are are,
especially nowadays. Um. In our world, we a lot of
strong vocalists and strong songwriters. You know, early on, before
(21:45):
we had proven our concept as a company as a business,
we you know, the fruit wasn't as right when you
go pick it off the tree, so it required a
little more artist development and help at the time. But
but now nowadays everyone's coming in pretty pretty buttoned up.
What was the first big album that you worked on
when you got here and they said this is the project.
It was Jake, It was Jake. I did um. I
(22:05):
did a song. My very first tracking session with him
was a song, uh called keeping It Country. And then
that was kind of my audition in that world. And
I owe a lot to Jake because Jake, just I
thought the idea was cool. He's like, yeah, let's get
this rock guy and then we'll have the songwriter Rodney
Class in there to keep it country, but we'll do
something totally new. So Jake took kind of the big risk. Um.
(22:29):
He was working with Tony Browne at the time, who
if anyone was aware of record producers, Tony is an
absolute legend. UM and Uh, I did the one song,
and I remember I was down in um Kabbo, San
Lucas with friends and then I got a phone call
from Gary Overton, who was running Sony at the time,
and he was like, I wanted to come to Nashville.
I want to hang with you and talk to you
a little bit because I think we want to get
(22:50):
you to finish the Jake record. And I'm like, well,
damn okay. That was pretty exciting for me, kind of
a big get. UM. So I flew back sat with Gary. UM,
we had a great me and then it was decided
that we would we'd finished off the record and um,
Barefoot Blue Night wasn't a part of that at the time.
We kind of cut four or five songs, used up
(23:10):
his budget. UM. And at the very end, the last
day in the studio, Jake shows up and he's playing
this demo. He's like, what do you think this song?
We're all like, this is awesome, this is great, but
we've spent all your money. I don't know how we're
gonna pull this off. And we went back to the label,
tried to get an extra few extra grand to go
(23:30):
get a band and cut this song, and we couldn't
get it. Well, they said no to the money. They
were like, you've got I think they said you've got
twenty seven dollars left, and we're like okay. And that
was what was left in his recording budget for that
album cycle. And he had some other great songs on
the record, so it wasn't like we were panicking going like,
oh man, we need to we need the silver bullet um.
(23:51):
So we decided to just build it like make computer music,
like make you build a beat. And we had enough
money in the budget hire one musician and had one
guy out of his band and and uh, I had
Rodney Clauson sing the harmonies and it's me and my
pro tools guy and Rodney doing the whoa doing all that,
and I'm playing some guitar and bassed on it. Like
(24:12):
we just put it together, um and Uh, it kind
of created this weird little programmed sound track sound that
wasn't a band and it was one of the I
mean that it totally opened the door for me here
in Nashville. What a how many times though, does it
happen where somebody goes, this is a song, because it
feels like every single was the and I know it's
(24:33):
not true, but lady, Yeah, everybody has a massive song
that they were like, you know, we were done with
the record and they and we found this song on
the ground walking in. It was to scratched up CD
and when he only played for three seconds, but we
had a feeling that was the three seconds we needed.
It feels like that's a lot where people come in
last minute and try to get a song. What do
a lot of them not get on? And those are
are dead stories that could have been the greatest story
(24:55):
of all time. Um, well, you definitely get pitched a
lot of songs. So I just I just had my
last three days with Morgan in the studio and Matt.
We were getting pitched a ton of song. I can
only imagine. It's terrifying. I'm going, oh no, because they're coming.
It's it's everyone's Hail Mary. So it's their best shot
that they've done that month. And you know there's we
actually ended up cutting a few and that came in
(25:15):
We just had to um um. But yeah, I mean
we try to cut everything that sounds good. When we
try to make the exception to just if it's great,
we just find a way to finish it off. But
you know, there's probably tons of certain circumstances where the great,
the great ones go unfound. That last one though, like
a lot of people come in here. You know, we
were doing with the record We're a day over. There
(25:38):
was the last song. Why is that? Is it? Because
it's the new shiny thing and people are so passionate
about it because they just heard it. That's a huge part. Yeah,
a lot of a lot of great songs get lost
because the artist will move on. It'll get old when
the kids right. You know, if we just released a
record and they start writing new music, that first stuff
(25:58):
will never get They'll be I'm amazing songs and we'll
just be sitting there go no no, no, no, no,
hold on, this is still really good. But then they'll
just move on and want to pitch the song because
they've written something else that they think is cooler. Do
you ever listen to old stuff that you've done just
in Nashville, Because I'll listen to old jokes I've told
on stage or bits that I've done in the radio,
and I'm like, oh, man, I'm a lot better than that. Now.
If you were to listen to Barefoot Blue G nine,
(26:20):
just sit and listen, would you go, that's what I'm
talking about? Or would you go, oh, I've actually learned
a lot of things since then, and I would do
it a little differently now. I always feel shame when
I hear them. It's I feel shame all the time
or anything I've ever done, but you you do, oh yeah.
It takes me a long time to forget every step
of the way. It's usually I don't know, eighteen months
later I can hear it and go, oh, yeah, that's cool.
(26:42):
When you don't hear every edit or every decision you
made in the whole song, or do you get in
the middle of it, because I'll do this in writing
and go, I don't know if it is good anymore
because you spent so long inside of it that you
now just have to go on instinct. And sometimes you
really have to fight that because because my job is
to just always be the answer. Guy. No, that's it.
We're doing this. Go in this. I'm like the doubt killer.
(27:02):
But secretly I don't know. Man, whenever you record Cruise,
because that again was another one of those songs that
kind of turned the industry on its ear, I wasn't
in Nashville yet, but even I remember it mostly because
it crossed over, right, because that's how big Cruise got. Like,
as you're recording that song, because you recorded so many songs,
do you feel it? Then you're like, oh my god,
(27:24):
this one could be monster. That one felt pretty special.
It was pretty It just I don't know how to
describe it. It felt so obvious. It just had a
lot of boxes checked. And even if if it gets
stuck in my head, I'm pretty jaded and I tend
to I can be pretty pretty cynical outlook on on
all of it, just because I do it so much.
And if it gets stuck in my head and breaks
(27:45):
through all of the other songs I'm working on, it's
usually a pretty good sign. And um, you know, we
were all walking around singing that song just while we
were working on it. We're pretty excited about it, and
you weren't surprised by the success. Um, I was really
surprised at how fast thing has happened. Like you can
never guess it's going to be like that. That was
a full lightning in a bottle moment um. But you
(28:08):
we knew it was going to do something. You just
had no idea it was going to be that. You know,
it was crazy that one was wild you and Morrigan.
I mean, you guys did whiskey glasses together, and so
with that relationship, because again it's not like you and
Morgan just got together. Now you've been working together for
a while. What was it like with Morgan as a
new artist when he was signed over a Big Aloud initially?
(28:29):
Man that Um, I remember the day he felt like
he just walked off the street into my studio and
we're like, who is this kid? The skinny, long haired
kid at the time, and he brought his his main
collaborator and I think it was a guitar player's band
at the time, and they sat in my studio and
played a bunch of songs that he had written and
you're like, okay, wow, I mean for a guy who's
(28:51):
just had no frame of reference and no exposure. It's
a great songwriters. These are pretty good shape. You know,
he understood songwriting, but his ability to sing was that
Florida's remember that he sang Eric church is Talladega and
he sang it absolutely perfect. He sang every single lick
that Eric did. Remember, Seth and I just sort of
(29:14):
looked at each other and we're like, holy crap, our
jaws were dropping and uh, and you could just tell
Morgan didn't really understand how good he was. He hadn't
been exposed to other people at the time, and um,
there was just an innocence to it which was mind blowing.
We it was kind of obviously at the time the
kid just needed a great song and he was gonna
he was gonna go. And then once he came in
(29:36):
and started um writing, I think when first or second
or third, right, I think it was the first time
he got in with Craig, they wrote Chasing You Together,
which is ended up being a huge song. Yeah, maybe
one of my favorites. Still. Yeah, it's great, and we
kind of sat on it for a little bit because
we didn't want to like we needed a twenty minute set,
(29:56):
so we were trying to go with the energetic songs
and and tem moore tempo songs. And finally it came
around to finishing office first project and we we cut
that song right away. You can see it as soon
as we released it, and he started following the day
to that one just started rising the whole time, who
are you working with right now? Like? Who are you
in the middle of a project with? Now? Um, Well,
(30:17):
now that everyone's back on the road and working, I have,
you know, access to the artists Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, so
I kind of have to whittle away at everything. Um.
But um, I just finished my last three days with
Morgan on his new music. I say last three days,
but there's always great songs that come in and I'm
sure there'll be a fire drill sometime here. Um. And
(30:41):
uh so I got a project on that I'm finishing
up new earned music, which is really exciting. We're about
to drop a new Hardy record which is exciting. Um.
And then uh yeah, once the Morgan records finished, then
it's then it's cleaning up what should say cleaning up?
But we working on all the young kids that we
have coming up. I'm really excited about a new girl
named Lauren walk Cons. I just did three days with her,
(31:02):
and she's an incredible talent, really really strong pen It's
amazing how she just keeps getting better and she's twenty
three years old. It's wild to see how fast her
songwriting is developing. And she's got a really original voice,
and you know those two things are. It's a pretty
potent combination made for you. Such a good song. Love it.
(31:29):
I think what you guys did with the sonically is perfect.
How do you judge when to scale a song back?
Because I would think that making a song simple is
probably just as hard as making a song complex. That's
a song that I think simplicity actually showcases what the
song is saying in the message sending. Is that an
(31:49):
internal struggle you have at times? Uh? Yes, it is
a challenge. Look for me personally to to just stop
and let the let the vocal and let the suplicity. Um,
I'm getting better at it, but it was originally a
really hard thing for me to do. But that song
was it had a pretty strong demo when it came in,
and it was obviously a song that was going to
(32:11):
be about the message, and it was an opportunity for
to Jake to sing in his you know, full kind
of baritone chest voice, which is awesome um um. So
it was really about staying away from that, not trying
to bury everything and guitar parts and other melodies and stuff.
It was the writing really did the job on that one.
(32:32):
I would feel like, for example, if I go and
there's a joke I didn't and I just actually found
out it worked really well, but I didn't put any
time into it. I feel like I'm cheating a little
bit if it's just like a such a like a
low hanging fruit and I'm like, man, I didn't put
much effort into this joke. It kills so let me
just do it. But then I feel like I'm not
working hard, And I think my struggle would be like, well,
I found this song and it's very simple, but if
(32:55):
I don't put like tracks on it, it just feel
like I'm working hard. I mean I went through that
phase for sure. Yeah, but there's equal value and knowing
when to not you know, Down to the Honky Talk
is like my favorite that wasn't a number one. I
love that freaking song. The production on down to the
Honky Talk is a plus. Thank you. I mean that
song was amazing again another a group of amazing songwritters
(33:18):
Rodney and Luke Lair on that one. Luke always has
interesting music in every song, he writes, He's a talented kid.
What do these guys say about you to work with you?
What would they say if I would like what it
hit Jake and be like, yo, what is Joey like
as a producer? What would he say? He might say,
I'm neurotic or I have a strong attention to detail
and make him sing the song a lot? So you
(33:39):
do you make him singing a lot? Sometimes just just
in general. Yeah, there's some directors that will make you go,
do it again, do it again, do it again. Well,
there's there's value in singers can do a lot of
things that, um, you can't ask them to do. There's
just value and repetition. Their voice will do certain things
that I wouldn't be able to ask him to make
(34:01):
his voice crack that certain way. And it only happens
because it was his fifth take and he hadn't drank
any water and his voice was dry, and it cracked
and it sounded really great on that one line, which
made the you know, made it sound more intimate. Or
made him sound more sad or or or the opposite
made him sound happier. Um. And those are just things
you can't ask people to do, even though you might
(34:22):
want it. And if when you do ask, you can
really shut down a singer's vocal take, you can kind
of make him think too much, you know, just trying
to keep him in that spontaneous space. So um and
a lot of that cool magic stuff just comes out
of repetition, just over and over until your break them.
That's what I hear. Well, if they don't know the song,
if they're coming in and going like you got the
(34:43):
lyrics for this, Oh, does that happen? Sometimes? If it's
if it's like a fresh outside song that they haven't
had a chance to practice, we go through this phase
where they'll sing it a bunch of times, but it's
still just it just sounds new, you know, and it
doesn't sound it sounds like they're still learning it. Um.
So I always try and encourage them to listen to
a lot and practice it so when they're coming in,
we don't have to stick in a million times. Can
(35:06):
you just listen to music for enjoyment, just pure enjoyment
sometimes without getting extremely analytical about the year and the technology,
how they recorded, were they all in the same room
or they like Sometimes I tend to listen to a
lot of podcasts and laugh. U say in my truck
to get away from it. That I understand because I
I just get away from music too, because I'm just
(35:27):
in it so much now, but I'm not in it
in it like you are where you're actually you can
probably separate all of the things just by listen all together.
You can still go to do and separate all the sounds. Yes, yeah, yeah,
there's times there's certain records which you know what you
just listened to because they're awesome and there's no point
in criticizing them. Because what is your favorite record full album? Man,
(35:51):
I'm going to give a very generic ancer. It's probably
uh A C D C Back and Black. I feel
like that's for its time, is the pre record, and
it's a pretty easy one to listen to. But I
don't I don't really have a favorite band or genre.
I kind of I don't know. If it's melodic and
it's catchy and I want to get stuck in my head,
(36:12):
I'll listen to it. I'm not really super selective in
that regard. If you're just relaxing, though, because I definitely
have music, I will go too because it's comfortable, because
I already know what and I already really like it.
And there are also times where I'm just listening to music,
to her new stuff, but I know I'm gonna go
John Mary Continuum or Counting Crows August and Everything After,
(36:33):
or Casey musk Rat. There are these records that I
just love and feel comfortable with because it puts me
what are those records for you? I love the Fleetwood
Mac playlist. I'll go through that Rumors. I'll bring that
Rumors record out pretty hard. Um. I listened to a
ton of Pink Floyd as a kid, and I'll do
that every once in a while because you chose it
or because your parents had. My older brother was playing it.
(36:56):
I learned. I got a lot of my musical tastes
from well, my older brother was listening too. Um yeah,
it's records like that. I went through a huge A C.
D C phase before I moved here. It was like
the only thing we all listened to and we were
jamming in the studio and um ah, but I went
through a huge tool phase I mean, I think they're fantastic.
(37:18):
I have some amazing records. What about Tool to you
is great because I know Tool. I was a big
rock kid, alternative kid, and I could probably you know,
I could do skills if I do all of in
my mouth. But what maybe I'm I wasn't in music
enough at the time to know what separates Tool? Right?
Is Tool great for me? I I love the musicianship
(37:38):
of it all. It's it's like super nerd music, but
it's still really simple. Um. And honestly, I listened to
the with when it came to Tool. I was so
obsessed with the drums and the guitar playing on it,
and I thought what Maynard doing. What Maynard was doing
was awesome, But that wasn't where I went. I was
just so so in that heard with the rhythm section
(38:01):
and their their decisions in that world where they have
changed time signatures and do all this stuff. It's I
just thought it was really cool. And they always have
this really dark I don't know they have. They've chosen
the aesthetic and they've really stuck to it and nailed
it right, and so um, you know that's that's that's
when you go to when you're feeling in a certain
way and you just do you want to rock, or
if you're working out and you want to hear something mean.
(38:22):
I think people will be surprised to know that, as
you said, and I would classify it this way. To
the Tool, it's kind of nerd music because what they do,
they they're so specific and so good and so precise.
But when you hear Tool, not knowing that it's precision
and art, you just here, you know, just to the energy. Yeah,
the juxtaposition is kind of odd there of being expert
(38:44):
musicians and just kind of the charisma of that music
because it is it's it's dark, Yeah, it is, it's tough.
You got to be in the right mood. It's it
is like I said, it's not on my playlist every
single day, um, but you know, I just go to
it every once in a while. On Morgan's Dangerous album
the double album, you did you not only produced it,
(39:07):
you did background vocals. You played some on it as well.
Right do you do that because you're like, Okay, only
I'm the one that can get this right. And how
I'm picturing it not not going you're the best ever,
but going this how I'm seeing it and I think
only I can pull this off. It's honestly, it's um,
I'm my first instinct is to hand the guitar to
somebody a million times better than me. But um, it's
(39:28):
usually that usually happens when I'm just alone with the
song and I'll be mixing or yeah, it usually happens
when it's mixing and a new idea happens and Morgan's
not there. I don't have a guitar player around me,
so um, I mean, it's ugly, it doesn't look pretty,
but I'll get a I'll get I'll get a guitar
part out of my hands, and if I can, if
it's something in my range, I'll sing a part that
(39:49):
I'll hear. And those things. Usually it's I'll just put
an idea down and then go make Morgan singing or
whoever it is singing. And sometimes they'll be like, now
that sounds good, leave it in there. And you still
you do so I didn't get paid. It's the background saying.
So when you produce a record like like the Morrigan
Win that's been the biggest record ever, you know, uh,
(40:10):
you get points on that, right, so so you continue
to get paid. Yeah, godly wow between that record because
maybe you haven't even been paid fully on that one
in the nickelback stuff. Do you make more money off
this Morgan stuff? Well? Yes, Oh that's all you gotta say.
I'm good, that's it. Yeah, but my business structure is
(40:32):
a lot different on the record company. Oh I hear
you though, man, that's awesome. What's the idea behind Big
Loud Mountain? Big Loud Mountain, Yeah, that was the um.
That was the We've changed all the names now it's
just Big Loud Now. Wasn't that like a one stop
kind of deal for new like or explain what the
idea when we first came when when we first just
(40:56):
formed our our our businesses to to do whatever we
plan on doing. Um, that was the name of the
publishing company that we put our artists on. Got it.
And now it's just exists within Big Yeah. So shirt,
all the shirts turning out, and it's just it's just
all gonna be Big Loud. You ever had anybody in
your studio that you are kind of like, I cannot
(41:17):
believe this staffany right now, I'm producing blank You're like,
I don't, I'm gonna play it cool. And they're gonna
think I'm totally just being Joey normal dude, but you're
like waly crow man. I feel like I got really
spoilt making the last two Hicks tapes for Hardy. I
feel like it covered the entire town. Everybody coming ever
come in, and then you know I was the cool
(41:38):
some of the cooler ones were, of course. You know,
anytime you get to sit in a studio with Ronnie Dune,
that's amazing. He's be yeah. I mean, just listen he
still it sounds like it's the late eighties early ninees.
When he sings, it's insane how good of a singer
he is. Um. But Joe Diffy came through. That was
so cool to get to hang with Joe Diffy, Tracy
(41:59):
Lawrence came through. Um, And it's like all the people
from when I was a kid, and like the ron
the Ronnie things awesome. Ronnie and I've formed friendship and
we go to dinner and stuff, and there are times
where I'm normal fremd it. There were times when I'm like,
this is freaking Ronnie done. Like I try to be
as normal as possible, but it's like a lot of
my childhood was in a small town in Arkansas listening
to every song on the Brooks And it doesn't matter
(42:21):
the tape. It was a tape. I remember when the
first time I heard Boots Scooting Boogie or Neon Moon,
this is great. So I imagine it's pretty hard to
get you to if I were just moved to town,
to be hard to get you to do anything for me. UM,
production wise, you're probably pretty booked out. Pretty booked out
for how long? Uh? What about? Like it's for an
(42:45):
infinite amount of time. It's hard when you're your your
your producer career turned into a record company that's a
publishing company and a management company. So you're kind of
just I'm kind of locked into any of the artists
that we sign. And do you spend a lot of
time strategize saying as well or because again, you have
such an I wouldn't gonna say dual role because it's
more than two things, trull role, quad role. You have
(43:07):
so many roles that you're doing. What do you find
that you are the best at just naturally and what
has been the hardest part of it for you as
an executive? UM, I am a producer by trade, I'm
a studio introverted, studio rat all day long. That's my strength.
I'm the executive side of things. That responsibility falls heavily
(43:31):
on Seth. He's uh, I'm always there to help out
at thirty thou feet. But when it comes to being
the CEO and and who the executives answered to, that
that has to be Seth. That's you have to have
a real clean chain of command in that scenario. Um So, myself,
Seth and Craig we counsel regularly together, but the chief
(43:51):
messager in the building is Seth. And so that allows,
you know, Craig to squirrel away in his room and
and be the badass songwriter he is. And then that
allows me to stay in record producer in our space,
song space, you know, I spend the majority of my
time in the studio with the artists. I've got two
more things for you. First one, I'm gonna ask about
(44:12):
Morgan a little bit in that this new project you're
working on, what's different, what's the same. You don't to
be super specific, obviously I wouldn't want you to do that,
but what I don't know, give me something here. What
did you guys decide we're going to be the priorities.
I feel like the songwriting is great again. He's Um,
he's continue It's it's always mind blowing how he continues
(44:36):
to grow as a songwriter. UM, he's written a ton
of this record. Um. You know, we've clearly there's a
little lane has opened with the more progressive sounding songs,
with songs with beats on it, right like Wasted on
You and you Proof. So we've done a couple of those, um,
and we've stuck to some of the more country sounding
(44:58):
songs like we've kind of done it's it's it's evolved
and there's kind of some new musical spaces we've gone into.
But at the same time, we've stayed true to what
the fans like and we've we've we've stayed the things
we know they're gonna like, and then we've tried a
couple of new things that we hope they're gonna like.
Any features, UM not at the moment. Well, you can
(45:21):
ask me once we get off and I'll do it
if you need me to go and do honestly my
agenda A yeah, but I'll wait until we're done here.
We'll get it off. We'll get off this so okay,
Well there's my Morgan question. Is it a lot of songs? Um,
yet to be determined, but probably a lot of songs.
You gotta be you have to. You can't set us
(45:41):
up like that with all those songs last time. They'll
be like, well, here's just a half a couple, Yeah exactly, Yeah, No,
we've there's Morgan is in the sweet spot right now.
The town is empowered around him. A lot of the
writers really like writing with him. Um, and so there's
a lot of songs coming our way. Okay, that's all
I need there, But what's the goal? Here we are
(46:07):
today mill of November. This may be a couple weeks
before it even gets on the air, but here you are.
You've done everything as far as at the height, meaning musically.
I don't know anybody in town who can just go
definitively go yeah, I'm better enjoy more. They can't. They can't.
Now I'm not saying you're saying that either, but I'm saying, well,
what is there to do that you haven't done yet?
(46:29):
That is still exciting? Do you? My favorite is still
making first records. That's the most exciting time. Um, when
you're building that frame of reference. With a young artists,
you're watching their eyes just pop out of their head
every corner they turn around, or every phase of the process. UM.
(46:49):
I love making new styles of music within the genre
and seeing if they work, and learning from the release
and pivoting if we need too. So artist development is
always been rewarding. For as long as I've been doing this,
I love it. It's my favorite UM and I just
(47:10):
want to continue to do that. I wanna. I'm really
I've never had success with a female artist. I want
to do that. UM. And we've launched our rock label
and who's on the rock label. We have a group
by the name of Blame My Youth. UM. We have
another group we put some of Hardy's record out through
(47:32):
the rock label. UM and we have another individual by
the name of Jaguar Twin. It's all really alternative rock based. UM.
We just signed some new kids called Yam House. We
have another guy by the name of let Down. He's more.
It's also in my family called me. Let Down stole
(47:53):
that from me. They titled every Christmas card Deer let Down.
Do Do you feel like there's a resurgence coming? I hope.
So I've been listening to a lot of all nation
these days, a lot of just turnative rock. I'm I
don't know why it's inspiring to listen to. I feel
like they've it's really changed from you know, vintage keyboard
(48:14):
music to it's kind of coming back into mainstream four chords,
lots of good hooks, lots of melody, kind of good
literal lyrics. You're seeing it. Really, it's really been moving
over the last eighteen months. That genre is I think
it's for me personally, it's probably changing the most right now,
and you're starting to see things leak over into the
larger genres. So um, I'm hoping that trend follows and
(48:37):
you know, eventually people get fatigued of computer music and
they like hearing bands again. So it's all cyclical, right, yeah,
totally everything it will come back around. You're I mean,
you're you're hearing it already. There's there's there's pop punk
on top forty, you know what I mean. And there's
there's guitars and drums and stuff that's that are coming back.
So it's gonna come back in some form. So well, yeah,
(48:58):
I would love it. I've I would love to have
one of those things on the rock lay to do
really well or break or at least start to get noticed.
Some of them are doing good. That you know, as
long as you're seeing those ticket sales increase and the
merch increase and the streaming increased, you know you're you're
head in the right direction. Yeah, let's get you another
the Maserati. You know what I'm saying. I don't even
know the mara. Let's get you know, the Maserati. That's
(49:19):
what I'm saying. I will end with this. I when
I was thinking about and I was just kind of
looking through some notes about some of the stuff that
you've done, and just look through the catalog. I think
one of my favorite songs, and this is gonna be
really douche because I didn't see it written. Did you do?
You did all the hardy stuff? Right? That makes sense
that uh he went to Jared, That's I think that's
(49:41):
my would be my might be my favorite thing that
I see that you have done. That I'm like, god, dang,
like like just when I hear that song and go,
that's different, that's good. That makes me feel something, not
sad or happy, but it's just like the first time
I heard it I was like, man, that is it.
You can when even even now even I can hear
(50:02):
that stuff, and I can hear that we had so
much fun making that music like it is it is.
It is in the box, but it's outside the box,
like all the hard stuff is. And him and I
bond over that two thousands Pacific Northwest rock scene. You know,
the stone Table pilots and the sound guard in the
Austin chains, um, all of that active rock that we
(50:23):
all kind of grew up on. Um. Yeah, as important
as a songwriting, just sonically like those two. It just
it's just like the perfect couple. The music, the lyrics,
the guitars, the big drum fills, yeah, the old big
rock fills. It's like arena rock meets country music meets
(50:44):
Hardy Hardy because there's there's nobody like them, and it
really works live. It's almost we almost think more about
the live show than we do streaming in in radio.
Come out and do that. He shot out from the ground.
I went to Morgan show and we had missed the
early part we got we missed Hardy, and it was
the whole disaster getting over there. But then we get
(51:06):
there and he shoots up from under the stage and
they do the song and I was like, oh, I
got damn song my song. So anyway, great job. You
don't need to hear me say a great job. But
there was the two Manserati's that you drove the one
and in your assistant drove beside you. Okay, you wanted
to switch halfway. I like that. Just congratulations, super excited
(51:28):
to finally meet you. I heard about you for so
long and just really cool. And I appreciate the time
you spent with me here today. Thanks for having me.
I really appreciate it. There is Joey moy So anyway,
I'll do that. I'll do the do the feature. Um
what I'll do is I'll drop nine bars and odd numbers,
winning for sure.
Host
Bobby Bones
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.