August 26, 2025 • 36 mins
Today we’re talking about what happens after everything falls apart—grief, growth, and giving women space to be messy, complicated, and real. Ashley Jordan is the author of this month’s Reese’s Book Club pick Once Upon a Time in Dollywood, a raw, funny, and emotionally honest novel about starting over when you least expect to. Ashley brings sharp wit and millennial swagger to this conversation, touching on identity, pop culture, and why women don’t need to be perfect to take center stage. She’s not here to smooth things over—she’s here to keep it real.
Jasmine Guillory - find her works HERE
An American Marriage, by Tayari Jones - find it HERE
A Love Song for Ricki Wilde by Tia Williams - find it HERE
Beloved by Toni Morrison - find it HERE
Color Purple by Alice Walker - find it HERE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danielle Robay (00:00):
Bookmarked by Reese's book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi,
I'm Danielle Robe and welcome to Bookmarked by Terese's book Club. Okay, so,
remember when we first met Ashley Jordan earlier this month,
author of our August pick Once Upon a Time in Dollywood.
(00:21):
We were instantly obsessed. Her humor was sharp and a
little twisted the way I like it. Her pop culture
recall was ten out of ten, and the way she
saw the world was thoughtful, layered, even surprising. And now
that we've all devoured her book, we can't wait to
get into all the juicy details. So here's a little refresher.
Ashley Jordan (00:47):
So my main character, Eve is fresh off of a
breakup and she is estranged from her parents as well,
and so she is going to Tennessee to Dollywood basically
to go to her grandmother's house. And supposedly she's there
to write. She wants she's a playwright and she wants
to write her next play. And she's going there. She's
pretending she's not having like a total life meltdown when
she is. And so her cover story gets kind of
(01:09):
complicated by the guy next door. His name is Jamie Gallagher,
and you know, he's this handsome, sunshiny single dad and
he really throws all her plans for a loop. She
wanted to be alone and he's like, no, you don't,
and so they kind of fall in like and then
they eventually fall in love. This is a romance, so
that's not a spoiler. And this is all much to
(01:29):
eat chagrin. I would call this a grumpy Shunshine pairing,
but she's the grumpy one. And basically what starts as
the fling really turns into something much deeper. And what
happens is they have a lot of baggage, they have
a lot of scars, and so they are emotionally exhausted
and kind of exhausting. But if they could just sort
of stop overthinking, they can figure out how to have
(01:51):
their happily ever after.
Danielle Robay (01:54):
So, whether you came for the Beyonce references, the Dolly sparkle,
or just to revel in the ful chaos of being human,
you're in the right place. Let's turn the page with
Ashley Jordan. Ashley, welcome back to the club.
Ashley Jordan (02:13):
Thank you so much for having me again.
Danielle Robay (02:15):
Honestly, I missed you. You were so much fun last
time we talked. I did ask you an impossible question
about Beyonce and Dolly, so I'm not going to do
that again to you. Thank you, But I do want
to know if this book was a Dolly song, which
would it be?
Ashley Jordan (02:31):
Oh okay, So I might be saying this because this
is probably my favorite Dolly song, But Little Sparrow, I
think is a gorgeous song. It is so haunting in
like a good way, but it's also about the pain
and the heartbreak and learning to fly above it. And
I think that it represents Dollywood and what's upon a
time in Dollywood in a really good way.
Danielle Robay (02:53):
It's also moody and intimate and authentic. The way that
you're writing.
Ashley Jordan (02:58):
Is that's such a nice compliment.
Danielle Robay (02:59):
It's true.
Ashley Jordan (03:00):
Thank you.
Danielle Robay (03:01):
The first thing I do when I open a book
is I turned to the dedication, and sometimes people skip
over it, but I feel as if a writer's dedication
is like their Oscars speech. Have you been thinking about
your book dedication for years?
Ashley Jordan (03:16):
No. I thought about my acknowledgments for a very long time,
like I wrote them before I ever had a book deal.
But the dedication just sort of came to me one
day and I was very happy. With it. It's sort
of like the introduction to the acknowledgment. So in a
way I had it had been, you know, ruminating, but yeah,
it was the acknowledgements. I was like, this has to
be perfect.
Danielle Robay (03:35):
I love that you wrote them years ahead of your book,
and that means you really didn't forget to thank anybody.
Ashley Jordan (03:39):
Well I hope not. I hope not to find out.
Danielle Robay (03:43):
Would you do me the great honor of reading your
dedication for me?
Ashley Jordan (03:46):
Oh? Yeah, sure. So it goes to all the black
girls and women mistaken for difficult when they just needed
to be seen, and to the village of black women
who not only raised me but lifted me. Mom Portland, Stephanie,
Brenda Wileine, Janet, Annie, Ruth, Lula Ruby, Jean Phyllis, Stephanie, Diane, Anita, Barbara,
(04:09):
Shirley Cinini, and miss Hattie. I love you.
Danielle Robay (04:13):
The I Love you is really powerful. Why did you
add that?
Ashley Jordan (04:16):
You know what? I think my mom told me to
add it. I believe that I was dedicating it to them,
and then she's like, I think you need a little
something extra there, just to you know, add a finer
point to it. And so I added that because it
is the love of this village of women who made
sure I made it to this point. So I thought
it's important to say, yeah, these are my Grandma Hazels,
(04:37):
and so thank you, I love you well.
Danielle Robay (04:40):
I think that your dedication almost sets the stage for
an important part of your main character, Eve, because she's
a little sharp edged and she's definitely hard to get
to know, and sometimes the decision she makes in the book,
you're shaking her, You really are. What is the trick
to writing a main character that we want to hug
(05:03):
and shake by the shoulders at the same time.
Ashley Jordan (05:06):
This is something I discussed a lot. It was my
agent and my editor because I remember when I first
started queering the book, a couple of agents were like, well,
she's unlikable, and I'm not really interested, And I'm like, well,
why can't she be unlikable. She's going through something harrowing.
She has a really difficult past, and I think it's
really important that we let women be unlikable, especially when
(05:26):
they have reason to But even if they don't have
reason to be, let's just be flawed and complicated and
being if we need to be. And still, you know,
she has those vulnerable parts of her that she eventually,
very eventually shows to Jamie, And I think that it
was important to start out showing that there's a reason
that she's like this. That was very important to my agent. Yeah,
(05:48):
just sort of letting readers understand what her journey is
and that she's not just like this because she wants
to be. She is really hurting and healing. The only
way out of this is through, but she has to
figure that out for herself.
Danielle Robay (06:01):
On page eighty two, you write like a flower trying
to blossom. I think that sort of sums it up,
the trying part. Yes, Is there anything you can point
to that really showcases how you let her be messy
without making us give up on her?
Ashley Jordan (06:17):
I think, or at least I hope that the opening
where she just sort of walks out on her fiance
in her parents and she says, you know, I'm running
for my life here. I hope that that really explains
what she's doing. She's not trying to be messy, but
it is messy to just kind of get up and leave,
but she needs to. She can't take this. It feels
like the walls are closing in on her, and I
(06:37):
think a lot of people can probably relate to that
moment where you just want to give up. A lot
of us can't. A lot of us don't have our
grandmother's house to run away to. Money doesn't work that way,
you know. But for her it was possible, and so
she did it and she became better for it. So
I hope that that made sense to readers.
Danielle Robay (06:54):
It made sense to me. I was looking on your
website and you really talk about being a proud Millenial,
which really made me laugh.
Ashley Jordan (07:03):
They try to make fun of us, but I don't care.
I am one and I love it.
Danielle Robay (07:07):
I am one too. Actually, is there anything quint essentially
millennial about Eve?
Ashley Jordan (07:13):
She loves a Disney movie, like she references Ariel and
all the Disney girls, and part of her couldn't really
embrace it because of all the things that happened when
she was a kid. But another part of her is like,
this is ingrained in me, and I believe I deserve
this fairy tale, so why don't I have it? So yeah,
she's definitely a Disney millennial, and that part of her
is definitely me.
Danielle Robay (07:32):
That's interesting. I believe I should have this fairy tale.
You know. Tell me if you think this is right.
Part of me feels like you get what you expect.
So I don't know if it's so bad to think that.
Ashley Jordan (07:44):
I totally agree. I think it's hard to parse because
sometimes you're like, am I asking for too much? Am
I being delusional? But also no, because you know, I
went through this journey and a lot of the things
that I said I wanted, like being a Reese's book
Club author, somehow is happening. So yes, you manifest your destiny.
I really do believe that, And so yes, wanting that
(08:05):
fairy tale even if you don't feel like you deserve it.
I think that's how you've ended up where she did.
Danielle Robay (08:10):
I'm going to get really woo woo on you. But
I was talking to someone the other day about beliefs
versus expectations, and I was thinking, maybe that was the
unlock to some of my issues with manifestation, because I
do think you get what you expect. You don't have
to believe you deserve it. You just have to expect it.
Ashley Jordan (08:29):
And I feel like women are conditioned not to expect things,
and so it's hard to do that. It's hard to
really feel like this is what I want, this is
what I expect but yes, I think that it's powerful
because then you put yourself in positions to get there.
Danielle Robay (08:46):
Part of the fun for me in reading the book
was that your character Eve also loves Beyonce, and last
time we talked, we talked about mad Men. There's a
reference to that there Housewives living single even always Sonny
in Philadelphia, which I loved when I was in college.
You also quote a Nini Leak's line, which I love.
Ashley Jordan (09:06):
Do you remember it's about the white refrigerator? Absolutely?
Danielle Robay (09:09):
Yep, exactly. So I know that you're obviously a big
fan of some of the shows that you cited. Did
any of the TV show characters that you've watched or
watched now influence the way you wrote Eve?
Ashley Jordan (09:22):
Yes, I would say she is definitely again because I am.
She is Molly Carter from Insecure for sure. So many
issues and also a little bit of Nora Durst from
The Leftovers.
Danielle Robay (09:35):
Wow, what's that corny line? So many issues like a
box of tissues? What did I just make up?
Ashley Jordan (09:42):
I say, she's got more issues than both.
Danielle Robay (09:44):
Oh, that's way better than what I just made up
in my brain. Okay, So on the surface, there are
a few similarities between you and Eve we talked about
them a little bit. You were both born in New York,
you both went to Spelman College, you're both writers. What
other parts of yourself did you infuse into Eve?
Ashley Jordan (10:05):
So I did not do this consciously, I don't think,
but I realized, especially as I was trying to get
the book published, like, oh, I definitely have posture syndrome,
and my anxiety has stopped me from doing a lot
of the things I want to do. So yeah, I
definitely imbued Eve with those qualities. Especially I kind of
worked through that with her, and like in edits and everything,
(10:25):
I understood her better as I was trying to get
this book published and when people started saying they liked
it and somebody was going to buy it, it was like,
when am I going to wake up from this because
it doesn't sound real and I'm just waiting for the
other shoe to drop and wake up or whatever. So yeah,
I definitely feel like those parts of Eve are especially me,
and I just kind of leaned into it after I
(10:45):
realized that's what I was doing.
Danielle Robay (10:47):
Did you have to draw any hard line between the two.
Ashley Jordan (10:50):
Of you, Not really. I don't have the same baggage
exactly that Eve has, especially from when she was a teenager.
So those were parts that I just sort of leaned into,
not really knowing and using my imagination more than anything.
But No, I wasn't like I have to stop because
she's too close to me. No, I was fine with that.
I enjoyed that. It was a little bit of catharsist
(11:11):
to say, hey, you're a mess too. Put it on
the page.
Danielle Robay (11:15):
Yeah, especially during the time that you wrote it, right
during the pandemic, and.
Ashley Jordan (11:20):
Oh my goodness, there was so much grief and sadness.
Jamie and Eve were like the vessels I needed to
say everything I wanted to.
Danielle Robay (11:27):
It's really interesting you use the word vessel because I
was thinking about the symbolism that the name Eve carries
the first woman, fresh starts, temptation, reinvention, even and the
first chapter you titled un Original Sin. Yes, why did
you choose Eve as the name for your protagonist for
(11:49):
those reasons?
Ashley Jordan (11:50):
Really? I mean, firstly because her parents are very religious, obviously,
and I just thought the name really made tense for
someone who was navigating what Eve was. She's dealing with
so much guilt, disdesired to sort of carve her own
path outside of what's been expected of her. The way
she walks away from her life is a bit of
a ball from grace in a way, but she's not
(12:10):
punished for it. I think in the end she receives
a reward for doing that. That's where they converge. But
I think that it was definitely a conscious decision to
choose that as her name and take her on that
journey that I did.
Danielle Robay (12:21):
I also noticed that Jamie has long hair and a
beard and is a carpenter. He is, why are you giggling?
Ashley Jordan (12:28):
I know where you're going. I don't know if I
took it out, but there was a reference to him
being like Jesus. But it was not conscious at all
when I was building the character. It just I mean,
he's not perfect, he has a lot of his own issues,
but he was perfect for Eve, I thought, And I
thought it was really important to give her that sort
of I mean, he's almost like a bit little figure
because he's her road to healing. And I think that,
(12:51):
you know, his gentleness with her and his grace with
her felt almost like pastoral in a way, and I
wanted that for her. I really wanted her to have
a soft space for her to land and so while
it wasn't a conscious biblical reference, it ended up being.
Danielle Robay (13:06):
Now I'm giggling because we're talking about how you're inspired
by mad Men and all these TV shows, you were
inspired by the Bible?
Ashley Jordan (13:13):
I was the Bible inspires so much, honestly, So, yes,
that makes sense.
Danielle Robay (13:18):
The first book ever, so your protagonist, our reluctant heroin,
is named Eve, and the inciting incident of the book
has to do with motherhood. It's a miscarriage, and that
was obviously a very intentional choice because that is the
inciting incident, that's what sets off the rest of the story.
(13:40):
Why was that your first plot point?
Ashley Jordan (13:43):
Again, this is me like inserting myself, and I think
a lot of women deal with this, especially once we
reach our thirties. Is what do we want our lives
to look like? Do we want motherhood? Do we believe
in you know, this idea of whatever society believes we
should be. Is that what we actually want? And so
as I struggle with it myself, and I think probably
all my books will delve into that in some way.
(14:04):
But I really wanted for her, having been through this
as a teenager and going through this now have to
delve into what does she actually want? Does she actually
want to be a mother? Or is she doing this
because she feels like it was taken from her? And
so I thought that was just one of many important
conversations about women in motherhood.
Danielle Robay (14:21):
What do I actually want? It's such a hard question, Yeah,
to actually answer.
Ashley Jordan (14:26):
What is society telling me I want? And what do
I actually want?
Danielle Robay (14:29):
I froze my eggs a few years ago. I never
knew if I wanted to be a mother. I didn't
have an answer one way or the other, and going
through that process for the first time, thought I'd be
really upset if this didn't work. I think I really
want this. Have you had a moment in your life,
whether it's motherhood or something separate, that really clarified what
(14:50):
you were wanting?
Ashley Jordan (14:52):
I think yes. And it's funny. I immediately thought of friends,
you know, when Rachel was like hiding her pregnancy and
realized is that pregnant? Like I really wanted this because
Eve he's trying to trick her, And yeah, I've had
that moment actually where it's like, you know, miscarriages are
very common, and so when that's happened, it's like, oh,
I did want this I wasn't sure before Now actually yeah,
(15:14):
that would have been nice, But now I'm just like,
maybe it wouldn't have been Like, look at the world.
I don't know, right, it's really hard to say. I
think at our core, a lot of us well, just
like the option and so many people, it's taken away
from and like with me, she wants it because it's
been taken from her. And so that whole exploration of
the idea of motherhood I think is super interesting because
(15:36):
you get such a small window to do it. It's
not like you can wait your whole life and say, Okay,
I'm ready now. It's like clock is ticking. Figure it out.
Danielle Robay (15:44):
Women have it hard and the clock is allowed. It's
so loud, so ashlely. When we talked at the beginning
of the month, you said you love to write breakups
and you love to write angst. Yes, And there's this
down Draper quote that you reference in your book. Actually,
he says, what is happiness? It's a moment before you
need more happiness.
Ashley Jordan (16:05):
That's such a good line.
Danielle Robay (16:06):
It is such a good line, but it feels like
a callback. Actually, did the title of your book Once
upon a Time in Dollywood because it's like this moment
in time before things fall apart for her where she
says it, yes, and so Dollywood is absolutely perfect. Yes,
And I felt like there was this juxtaposition or almost
like what's the term, like you were telling us something.
Ashley Jordan (16:27):
Mm hmm, a little bit of foreshadowing.
Danielle Robay (16:31):
For that's the word foreshadowing. Thank you to my English
teacher of sixth grade.
Ashley Jordan (16:36):
She's so proud.
Danielle Robay (16:37):
Oh my god.
Ashley Jordan (16:38):
I think it's just generally true. Like the reason it
resonates is because when are you ever satisfied? You know,
shout out to Hamilton. You have these moments where you're
very happy, and then all of a sudden it's like, well,
I'm not happy anymore. It was not like John Draper says,
it's a moment before you be more happiness when that
stuff happens. She's not through her journey yet, so she
(16:59):
very much. Oh you know what, at Dollywood, I was
almost happy. I was so close to it and I
didn't quite get there. And then you know, she has
to figure out that you have to make your own
happiness and it's not it can't be just a moment.
It has to be a state of mind.
Danielle Robay (17:11):
I think, Yeah, I'd never really thought about it just
being a moment, because we are constantly chasing that. Some
of this is really heavy stuff. Did you do anything
to take care of yourself while you were writing.
Ashley Jordan (17:25):
No, As I said, I was in school while I
was writing it, and it was really stressful. I mean,
and I didn't have to do it. I didn't have
to go to school either. I just decided I needed
a distraction. And I think that both of those things
were really great at keeping me away from the heaviness
of the pandemic. So they kind of were my safe
(17:46):
place my self care. It was hard to write sometimes,
and it was hard to do it at the same
time as having an assignment due but I think it
was really good for me and good for my state
of mind because I work in public health as well,
and so the pandemic was very hard and yeah, so
they were my escape routes from that and just sort
of detaching from the hard parts that were happening in
(18:08):
real life.
Danielle Robay (18:09):
Did you sleep No.
Ashley Jordan (18:13):
I don't remember sleeping. I know.
Danielle Robay (18:15):
Yeah, I just imagine you writing furiously with a mask on. Okay,
that's wild. I was so excited to learn that you
were actually a lit up fellow in twenty and twenty three. Yes,
now you're a Reese's Book Club pick. Yes, what did
(18:36):
you get from your lit Up experience?
Ashley Jordan (18:39):
Oh my goodness, so much? Mainly a book that could
be published. But I think the most important thing was
really the people that I met. I mean, my mentor
was Jasmine Guillery which still is crazy. One of those
things that I manifested because they asked me who do
you want your mentor to be? And I said, oh,
maybe this isn't going to happen, but maybe Bolu Mabolola
or Jasmine Guillory and they're like, okay, didn't say anything.
(19:02):
They're just like, okay, thanks for letting us know. And
the next thing I know, I got an email from Jasmine.
So manifesting works.
Danielle Robay (19:08):
Ashley, I call those magical emails. Oh god, yes, that's
so exciting.
Ashley Jordan (19:13):
It was. And on top of the mentorship, you know,
obviously there are five people in your cohort, and we
came away with like this really beautiful friendship where we
support each other constantly. I am so grateful that all
five of us got book deals were in the middle
of it, and we help each other through everything. And
on top of that, the other girls from the other
cohorts are amazing, and we're all kind of going through
this publishing thing together and learning, and it has just
(19:35):
been very important if you're going to enter publishing that
you have a village of supporters obviously your family and friends,
but also people who understand the publishing industry. So having
that is just been invaluable.
Danielle Robay (19:48):
That's so cool to hear. You know, the first time
I ever met Reese Witherspoon, I hugged her and I
thanked her and I said, you gave me a home
in Los Angeles because I had never felt community the
way I do getting to be at Hello Sunshine. Yeah,
that's what I'm hearing from you, is like it gave
(20:09):
you these people to be in it with. It's so underestimated.
Ashley Jordan (20:13):
Yes, you can't really know until you're in it that
publishing is such a lonely industry because nobody outside of
it really knows what's going on. They think that, you know,
if you publish a book, you just put it up
on Amazon or something.
Danielle Robay (20:25):
And writing's not a team sport.
Ashley Jordan (20:27):
It's not. It's very lonely. And so once you get
into this process where you get to make it like
a team effort, and you know, obviously my agent and
my editor are part of my village as well. But yeah,
those peers that I really understand what you're going through
and can give you advice and all that it is.
It's amazing.
Danielle Robay (20:43):
I had the opportunity to interview Jasmine at the very
first shine Away event two years ago. What I love
well amongst the many things I like about her, including
her books, she was an attorney before she became a writer,
and she makes it seem like it's possible for anybody
who has a story on their heart. Is there anything
(21:03):
in particular she said to you that made you feel
like your dream was possible?
Ashley Jordan (21:08):
It was pretty much exactly that. I mean. Like I said,
I wrote this during the pandemic, and I had queried
it and a little bit of success, but I wasn't
quite finding what I was looking for, and I wasn't
sure if this book had a place. And when I
got into lit up, obviously that bellied my confidence a lot.
And what Jazzma specifically said was it's great as is.
I was worried there weren't big enough steaks, or it
(21:30):
was just maybe too quiet, it wasn't hooky enough, or
anything like that. And she said, no, that's what it
should be. The confidence she gave me in my book
really allowed me to pursue publishing further because I really like,
right before I got into lit Up, I was like,
I'm just ready to give up. I'm tired of creating
this book. I'm tired of this book. I was just
ready to let it go. And then lit Up said,
because I applied the first year and didn't get in,
(21:51):
and so the second year they were like, hey, we
know you applied. If you still aren't agent, to feel
free to apply again. And I said, well, I've revised it,
so sure here take it. And I got in somehow,
So I don't.
Danielle Robay (22:04):
Sy I didn't realize that, Ashley, Yeah, this really was
faded for you.
Ashley Jordan (22:10):
I really feel like this. Yeah.
Danielle Robay (22:12):
The title lends itself to Dolly Parton obviously, And we
talked about Beyonce and on your website you say that
you love Lauren Hill, who's my favorite artist of all time?
Ashley Jordan (22:23):
How is this? She did that with one album, just
like and.
Danielle Robay (22:26):
She's still saying it.
Ashley Jordan (22:29):
She should be. It's a perfect album.
Danielle Robay (22:31):
When I write, I cannot even an email, I cannot
have any music on in the background. What's the role
of music when you're writing.
Ashley Jordan (22:39):
I can have music, I can't have music with lyrics,
so I usually just listen to like classical music or
the Succession soundtrack. But I think music is in general
just a very big inspiration. As I mentioned, I wrote
fan fiction for The Walking Dead, and probably the best
and worst idea I ever did was when Lemonade came out.
I created a fan fiction story using Lemonade as the
(23:02):
vehicle to write this crazy story about my favorite fictional couple.
And it's really why I'm here today because somebody from
BuzzFeed read it and she was like, you should really
try to pursue writing, and I'm like, oh bye. But
then I was like, you know what, maybe she's right,
So yeah, that's like my origin story. I think music
is like that. It just sort of inspired the words
the album. I was just talking to my mom about this.
(23:22):
Albums are very much like books, you know, the songs
are chapters. They tell a story. A really good album
is a really good story, So I think that I
use them in that way. They inspired me to write.
Danielle Robay (23:32):
Was there a particular song or songs in general that
you thought about when writing this story?
Ashley Jordan (23:38):
Then I don't think so I mean, if there were
a theme song for this book, it would be Crane's
in the Sky by Solange. When I was editing, I
listened to that a lot, and really the whole soundtrack.
I love my little soundtrack. But I don't think anything
in particular like inspired me to first write it. It
was just sort of, this is a story on my
heart and I want to get it out.
Danielle Robay (24:00):
You talk about this book starting as fan fiction. I
was thinking about how participatory fan fiction is, and it
really gets readers so excited, Like you don't see Reddit
threads about every book, but you do when it's fan fiction.
And Priya Parker wrote a piece about John Baptiste one time,
(24:24):
and she said that his performances are so engaging because
he doesn't perform. He requires participation. He's calling people in
all the time. And even though it started as fan fiction,
it's not anymore. When you look at the way you're
marketing this book, there's a lot of elements that are
(24:45):
still there. You're really calling people in. How did you
think about that?
Ashley Jordan (24:49):
That's really interesting. I didn't think about it in that way,
But I think that you're absolutely right that those bones
are there, because when you are writing fan fiction, you
are posting usually one chapter at a time and getting feedback.
And I have set my readers many times. With this book.
It was very different and much longer. It was like
two hundred thousand words. But yeah, I think that when
(25:10):
I was writing it, I wrote with those sort of
comments in mind, like Okay, don't do this because this
will piss them off, or they like this, Maybe keep
those threads there. But yeah, I think that when you're marketing,
you are also kind of thinking in the same way,
what do people respond to? What did fan fiction readers
respond to? When I was doing that, and so I
didn't realize I was doing that, but you're right. So
(25:32):
they are always in my mind. They're the reason I'm here.
Danielle Robay (25:34):
So when you're writing, are you asking yourself a question?
And I'll give you an example. When we're producing this show,
we constantly ask ourselves what is the audience getting out
of this? Is there something that you're asking yourself, not.
Ashley Jordan (25:47):
In the middle of like writing a chapter, but when
I'm you know, editing and rereading the book, because it's
really hard to keep in perspective that you've read this
eight hundred times. So I have to ask myself someone
who's never read that this book. Is it going to
be useful to them, good to them? Is this writing
going to resonate with them? Because at this point I
hate this book, not really, but yeah, I think when
(26:10):
you are in the throes of editing and reading your
book over and over and over again, you have to
ask yourself, Okay, if I'm a reader who's never read
your work before, what is this saying to them?
Danielle Robay (26:19):
Okay? So usually in every bookmarked conversation, I admit one
thing that I feel embarrassed to admit. Okay, and here's
my time. Are you ready?
Ashley Jordan (26:28):
I'm ready.
Danielle Robay (26:29):
I saw my very first Beyonce show this summer. I
saw Cowboy Carter.
Ashley Jordan (26:34):
You don't have to be embarrassed. That's an amazing first
Beyonce show. But also it's not easy, Like she goes
to stadiums, which are I hate, and you know they're expensive,
so nothing to be ashamed of. I'm very happy that
this was your first Beyonce experience.
Danielle Robay (26:50):
Well, I got so lucky my friend Ali Love whose
peloton instructure took me. Oh yeah, and she can really dance,
so like I'm having fun with her. I'm having fun
watching and on the way home. We're talking about all
of the Beyonce shows and trying to rate them. It's
hard to do. Oh god, So I'm about to ask you,
(27:12):
as somebody who is the Beyonce fan, how would you
rank the tours? Okay, so you're embracing your slide. Really
is the most important question I've asked you.
Ashley Jordan (27:22):
It might be the most important question I've ever been asked.
I reserve the right to change my mind. This is
right now, in this moment these this will be my answer.
Oh my god. I think Renaissance is first because it
was right after the pandemic and it was a very
specific like concoction of joy and queerness, and just like
(27:42):
it was just right place, right time, amazing show. Like
you know, when she does the Renaissance section of Cowboy Carter,
the audience goes crazy because Renaissance was amazing. I think
Cowboy Carter information are right after that. Like I don't
like stadiums, but she puts on an amazing stadium show.
So the production just Leimonad is my favorite album right now,
(28:03):
so Formation is always going to be your way up
there for me. But Cowboy Carter was incredible. I've seen
it four times now, I'm sad it's over, but hopefully
it will come out on something she never gave us formation,
which I'm very upset about.
Danielle Robay (28:15):
I think you spent your entire book advance on Beyonce.
Ashley Jordan (28:18):
Tickets basically, but it was worth it.
Danielle Robay (28:22):
So millennial exactly.
Ashley Jordan (28:25):
I told you I was millennial. And then after that,
let's see. I think I just basically go backwards in
order because she just sort of evolved with every album,
So missus Carter, and then I am Beyonce experience, and
then dangerously, I hope I didn't miss anything. Don't come
at me be high.
Danielle Robay (28:43):
That was great. You have a two book deal, and
we've been talking a lot about manifesting. What are you manifesting?
What are you calling in next?
Ashley Jordan (28:53):
I would like to I don't know if it's going
to work out because I'm kind of having trouble with
what exactly the story is going to be, but I
would really love to write something about Eve's best friend
Maya and her fiance Chavon. We'll see. Me and my
publisher are like trying to figure it out right now,
and so we'll see what happens. If it's not this book,
then maybe some other book. Because I would like to
(29:13):
revisit them and revisit even Jamie through them, So I
think that would be great.
Danielle Robay (29:18):
What about them are particularly interesting to you right now?
Ashley Jordan (29:23):
Well, they have been together since college. I would like
to perhaps and maybe eliminate sort of way go back
through their history and see where they've been and how
they got to this place that they are now.
Danielle Robay (29:36):
That's cool. Okay, this is my final question, Ashley. I
love asking our guests what they've bookmarked this week. It
can be a weird fact, a fun quote, something you've
saved on Instagram, something you texted your best friend about.
What have you bookmarked this week?
Ashley Jordan (29:54):
I have books marked actually today the Black Romance Book Festival,
which is in Atlanta, which I app love. I told
you we have a good history of festivals and it
celebrates black romance, which we need to do more of.
So it'll be in Atlanta next year, and I'm waiting
impatiently because they sold out really fast last year, so
I'm waiting for those tickets to go on sale and
so i can attend, which I'm very excited about.
Danielle Robay (30:16):
So we're coming up on the end of our conversation,
which means it's time for speed read. So here's how
it works. We're putting sixty seconds on the clock and
we're going to see how many rapid fire literary questions
you can get through. Are you ready?
Ashley Jordan (30:31):
I'm okay?
Danielle Robay (30:32):
Three?
Ashley Jordan (30:33):
Two?
Danielle Robay (30:34):
What's one literary trope you would ban forever?
Ashley Jordan (30:38):
Please don't cancel me. But I do not like enemies
to lovers, like if I'm your enemy, we were not
falling along?
Danielle Robay (30:44):
That's a popular one.
Ashley Jordan (30:45):
I know. I'm sorry. I hate it.
Danielle Robay (30:47):
What's one that you'll defend with your life?
Ashley Jordan (30:49):
Grumpy Sunshine and forced Proximity.
Danielle Robay (30:51):
My parents are Grumpy Sunshine. I love. What's a book
you wish you'd written?
Ashley Jordan (30:57):
Ooh, that's such a good one. And America Marriage by
Tyrie Jones probably my favorite book of all time.
Danielle Robay (31:03):
What's your favorite book? To recommend that one? What's your
favorite book to gift?
Ashley Jordan (31:08):
A love song for Ricky Wilde? Bye Ta Williams. I
love that one. It's so good.
Danielle Robay (31:13):
Your book is on the shelf at a local bookstore
in Atlanta. Who are you shelved in Between?
Ashley Jordan (31:18):
I actually thought about this before because I was writing
something to her. But I feel like I would be
next to Abby Mnis because of our names, and I
hope I would be.
Danielle Robay (31:29):
It's like school roll call.
Ashley Jordan (31:30):
Yeah.
Danielle Robay (31:32):
What's your favorite Dolly song to cry to?
Ashley Jordan (31:34):
This is obviously Whitney made it first, but I will
always love you ball every time.
Danielle Robay (31:39):
Yes, favorite Beyonce song to dance too.
Ashley Jordan (31:44):
I'm gonna go with when Today, Tyrant.
Danielle Robay (31:46):
What's your favorite page to screen adaptation?
Ashley Jordan (31:48):
Oh, Pride and Prejudice two thousand pie.
Danielle Robay (31:54):
What's a book you wish you could read again for
the first time?
Ashley Jordan (31:58):
Beloved by Toni Morrison.
Danielle Robay (32:00):
Oh, I just finished that one a few weeks ago for.
Ashley Jordan (32:03):
The first time. M hm, oh, I'm jealous. Yeah, I
wish I could read that again for the first time.
Danielle Robay (32:07):
It was amazing. Okay, last one, What is a book
that shaped the way you see the world?
Ashley Jordan (32:13):
The color purple? I think that, Yeah, I see myself,
I see my mom, I see my grandmother in it.
It's yeah, that's definitely the one.
Danielle Robay (32:22):
Ashley. This was such a wonderful conversation. You are as
literary as you are fun. It was like so great
to talk pop culture and books with you. Thank you
so much for your time and just a huge congratulations.
I'm really excited for all your success.
Ashley Jordan (32:38):
Thank you so much. This was amazing. You made this
so easy, and I really appreciate it, and thank you
for the compliment. I really aprecipate that too.
Danielle Robay (32:48):
Before we go, we're bringing you something new, okay, a
little literary bonus just for bookmarked listeners. We're calling it
Turn Up the Story. Every month, we're teaming up with
the editor at Apple Books to spotlight one of their
favorite debut novels. These are fresh voices with unforgettable stories,
and they're handpicked with this audience in mind. This month,
(33:11):
their pick is The Hounding by Zena Be Purvis. The
Hounding is eerie in the best way, clever, Gothic, and
a little bit defiant. It follows five sisters living in
an eighteenth century village where conforming to social norms isn't
exactly their strong suit. But things take a turn when
rumors begin to swirl, accusations of supernatural power, whispers of
(33:34):
something darker, and suddenly the sisters are forced to confront
what's more dangerous the stories people tell about them or
the truths that they keep for themselves. This novel blends
atmosphere with social commentary, and Purvis has a style that'll
wrap you in a fog and keep you there if
you love Shirley Jackson or The Essex Serpent, or if
(33:55):
you just want something moody and brilliant to listen to,
you'll want to spend a little time with this one.
For a limited time, you can get the audiobook of
The Hounding for just nine dollars and ninety nine cents
only on Apple Books. And if you're curious about what
inspired Zenabepurvis to write this haunting debut, you'll find that too.
Head to Apple dot co slash Debut Listens to listen
(34:16):
in and while you're there, don't miss the full collection
of debut audio books that the Apple Books editors love,
all chosen with bookmarked listeners in mind. Happy listening, and
we'll see you next time. And if you want a
little bit more from us, come hang with us on socials.
We're at Reese's Book Club on Instagram serving up books,
(34:39):
vibes and behind the scenes magic. And I'm at Danielle
Robe Roba y come say hi and df me And
if you want to go nineties on us, call us. Okay,
our phone line is open, so call now at one
five zero one two nine, one three three seven nine.
That's one five oh one two nine three, three, seven nine,
(35:03):
share your literary hot takes, book recommendations, questions about the
monthly pick, or let us know what you think about
the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might
just hear yourself in our next episode, so don't be shy,
give us a ring, and of course, make sure to
follow Bookmarked by Reese's book Club on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your shows until then
(35:28):
via in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of
Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcast. It's executive produced by Reese
Witherspoon and me Danielle Robe. Production is by Acast Creative Studios.
Our producers are Matty Foley, Brittany Martinez, Sarah Schleid, and
Darby Masters. Our production assistant is Avery Loftis. Jenny Kaplan
(35:51):
and Emily Rudder are the executive producers for a Cast
Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive
producers for Hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa Kristin Perla, Kelly Turner
and Ashley Rappaport are associate producers for Reese's book Club.
Ali Perry and Lauren Hansen are the executive producers for
iHeart Podcasts, and Tim Palazola is our showrunner.
Bookmarked by Reese's book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi,
I'm Danielle Robe and welcome to Bookmarked by Terese's book Club. Okay, so,
remember when we first met Ashley Jordan earlier this month,
author of our August pick Once Upon a Time in Dollywood.
(00:21):
We were instantly obsessed. Her humor was sharp and a
little twisted the way I like it. Her pop culture
recall was ten out of ten, and the way she
saw the world was thoughtful, layered, even surprising. And now
that we've all devoured her book, we can't wait to
get into all the juicy details. So here's a little refresher.
Ashley Jordan (00:47):
So my main character, Eve is fresh off of a
breakup and she is estranged from her parents as well,
and so she is going to Tennessee to Dollywood basically
to go to her grandmother's house. And supposedly she's there
to write. She wants she's a playwright and she wants
to write her next play. And she's going there. She's
pretending she's not having like a total life meltdown when
she is. And so her cover story gets kind of
(01:09):
complicated by the guy next door. His name is Jamie Gallagher,
and you know, he's this handsome, sunshiny single dad and
he really throws all her plans for a loop. She
wanted to be alone and he's like, no, you don't,
and so they kind of fall in like and then
they eventually fall in love. This is a romance, so
that's not a spoiler. And this is all much to
(01:29):
eat chagrin. I would call this a grumpy Shunshine pairing,
but she's the grumpy one. And basically what starts as
the fling really turns into something much deeper. And what
happens is they have a lot of baggage, they have
a lot of scars, and so they are emotionally exhausted
and kind of exhausting. But if they could just sort
of stop overthinking, they can figure out how to have
(01:51):
their happily ever after.
Danielle Robay (01:54):
So, whether you came for the Beyonce references, the Dolly sparkle,
or just to revel in the ful chaos of being human,
you're in the right place. Let's turn the page with
Ashley Jordan. Ashley, welcome back to the club.
Ashley Jordan (02:13):
Thank you so much for having me again.
Danielle Robay (02:15):
Honestly, I missed you. You were so much fun last
time we talked. I did ask you an impossible question
about Beyonce and Dolly, so I'm not going to do
that again to you. Thank you, But I do want
to know if this book was a Dolly song, which
would it be?
Ashley Jordan (02:31):
Oh okay, So I might be saying this because this
is probably my favorite Dolly song, But Little Sparrow, I
think is a gorgeous song. It is so haunting in
like a good way, but it's also about the pain
and the heartbreak and learning to fly above it. And
I think that it represents Dollywood and what's upon a
time in Dollywood in a really good way.
Danielle Robay (02:53):
It's also moody and intimate and authentic. The way that
you're writing.
Ashley Jordan (02:58):
Is that's such a nice compliment.
Danielle Robay (02:59):
It's true.
Ashley Jordan (03:00):
Thank you.
Danielle Robay (03:01):
The first thing I do when I open a book
is I turned to the dedication, and sometimes people skip
over it, but I feel as if a writer's dedication
is like their Oscars speech. Have you been thinking about
your book dedication for years?
Ashley Jordan (03:16):
No. I thought about my acknowledgments for a very long time,
like I wrote them before I ever had a book deal.
But the dedication just sort of came to me one
day and I was very happy. With it. It's sort
of like the introduction to the acknowledgment. So in a
way I had it had been, you know, ruminating, but yeah,
it was the acknowledgements. I was like, this has to
be perfect.
Danielle Robay (03:35):
I love that you wrote them years ahead of your book,
and that means you really didn't forget to thank anybody.
Ashley Jordan (03:39):
Well I hope not. I hope not to find out.
Danielle Robay (03:43):
Would you do me the great honor of reading your
dedication for me?
Ashley Jordan (03:46):
Oh? Yeah, sure. So it goes to all the black
girls and women mistaken for difficult when they just needed
to be seen, and to the village of black women
who not only raised me but lifted me. Mom Portland, Stephanie,
Brenda Wileine, Janet, Annie, Ruth, Lula Ruby, Jean Phyllis, Stephanie, Diane, Anita, Barbara,
(04:09):
Shirley Cinini, and miss Hattie. I love you.
Danielle Robay (04:13):
The I Love you is really powerful. Why did you
add that?
Ashley Jordan (04:16):
You know what? I think my mom told me to
add it. I believe that I was dedicating it to them,
and then she's like, I think you need a little
something extra there, just to you know, add a finer
point to it. And so I added that because it
is the love of this village of women who made
sure I made it to this point. So I thought
it's important to say, yeah, these are my Grandma Hazels,
(04:37):
and so thank you, I love you well.
Danielle Robay (04:40):
I think that your dedication almost sets the stage for
an important part of your main character, Eve, because she's
a little sharp edged and she's definitely hard to get
to know, and sometimes the decision she makes in the book,
you're shaking her, You really are. What is the trick
to writing a main character that we want to hug
(05:03):
and shake by the shoulders at the same time.
Ashley Jordan (05:06):
This is something I discussed a lot. It was my
agent and my editor because I remember when I first
started queering the book, a couple of agents were like, well,
she's unlikable, and I'm not really interested, And I'm like, well,
why can't she be unlikable. She's going through something harrowing.
She has a really difficult past, and I think it's
really important that we let women be unlikable, especially when
(05:26):
they have reason to But even if they don't have
reason to be, let's just be flawed and complicated and
being if we need to be. And still, you know,
she has those vulnerable parts of her that she eventually,
very eventually shows to Jamie, And I think that it
was important to start out showing that there's a reason
that she's like this. That was very important to my agent. Yeah,
(05:48):
just sort of letting readers understand what her journey is
and that she's not just like this because she wants
to be. She is really hurting and healing. The only
way out of this is through, but she has to
figure that out for herself.
Danielle Robay (06:01):
On page eighty two, you write like a flower trying
to blossom. I think that sort of sums it up,
the trying part. Yes, Is there anything you can point
to that really showcases how you let her be messy
without making us give up on her?
Ashley Jordan (06:17):
I think, or at least I hope that the opening
where she just sort of walks out on her fiance
in her parents and she says, you know, I'm running
for my life here. I hope that that really explains
what she's doing. She's not trying to be messy, but
it is messy to just kind of get up and leave,
but she needs to. She can't take this. It feels
like the walls are closing in on her, and I
(06:37):
think a lot of people can probably relate to that
moment where you just want to give up. A lot
of us can't. A lot of us don't have our
grandmother's house to run away to. Money doesn't work that way,
you know. But for her it was possible, and so
she did it and she became better for it. So
I hope that that made sense to readers.
Danielle Robay (06:54):
It made sense to me. I was looking on your
website and you really talk about being a proud Millenial,
which really made me laugh.
Ashley Jordan (07:03):
They try to make fun of us, but I don't care.
I am one and I love it.
Danielle Robay (07:07):
I am one too. Actually, is there anything quint essentially
millennial about Eve?
Ashley Jordan (07:13):
She loves a Disney movie, like she references Ariel and
all the Disney girls, and part of her couldn't really
embrace it because of all the things that happened when
she was a kid. But another part of her is like,
this is ingrained in me, and I believe I deserve
this fairy tale, so why don't I have it? So yeah,
she's definitely a Disney millennial, and that part of her
is definitely me.
Danielle Robay (07:32):
That's interesting. I believe I should have this fairy tale.
You know. Tell me if you think this is right.
Part of me feels like you get what you expect.
So I don't know if it's so bad to think that.
Ashley Jordan (07:44):
I totally agree. I think it's hard to parse because
sometimes you're like, am I asking for too much? Am
I being delusional? But also no, because you know, I
went through this journey and a lot of the things
that I said I wanted, like being a Reese's book
Club author, somehow is happening. So yes, you manifest your destiny.
I really do believe that, And so yes, wanting that
(08:05):
fairy tale even if you don't feel like you deserve it.
I think that's how you've ended up where she did.
Danielle Robay (08:10):
I'm going to get really woo woo on you. But
I was talking to someone the other day about beliefs
versus expectations, and I was thinking, maybe that was the
unlock to some of my issues with manifestation, because I
do think you get what you expect. You don't have
to believe you deserve it. You just have to expect it.
Ashley Jordan (08:29):
And I feel like women are conditioned not to expect things,
and so it's hard to do that. It's hard to
really feel like this is what I want, this is
what I expect but yes, I think that it's powerful
because then you put yourself in positions to get there.
Danielle Robay (08:46):
Part of the fun for me in reading the book
was that your character Eve also loves Beyonce, and last
time we talked, we talked about mad Men. There's a
reference to that there Housewives living single even always Sonny
in Philadelphia, which I loved when I was in college.
You also quote a Nini Leak's line, which I love.
Ashley Jordan (09:06):
Do you remember it's about the white refrigerator? Absolutely?
Danielle Robay (09:09):
Yep, exactly. So I know that you're obviously a big
fan of some of the shows that you cited. Did
any of the TV show characters that you've watched or
watched now influence the way you wrote Eve?
Ashley Jordan (09:22):
Yes, I would say she is definitely again because I am.
She is Molly Carter from Insecure for sure. So many
issues and also a little bit of Nora Durst from
The Leftovers.
Danielle Robay (09:35):
Wow, what's that corny line? So many issues like a
box of tissues? What did I just make up?
Ashley Jordan (09:42):
I say, she's got more issues than both.
Danielle Robay (09:44):
Oh, that's way better than what I just made up
in my brain. Okay, So on the surface, there are
a few similarities between you and Eve we talked about
them a little bit. You were both born in New York,
you both went to Spelman College, you're both writers. What
other parts of yourself did you infuse into Eve?
Ashley Jordan (10:05):
So I did not do this consciously, I don't think,
but I realized, especially as I was trying to get
the book published, like, oh, I definitely have posture syndrome,
and my anxiety has stopped me from doing a lot
of the things I want to do. So yeah, I
definitely imbued Eve with those qualities. Especially I kind of
worked through that with her, and like in edits and everything,
(10:25):
I understood her better as I was trying to get
this book published and when people started saying they liked
it and somebody was going to buy it, it was like,
when am I going to wake up from this because
it doesn't sound real and I'm just waiting for the
other shoe to drop and wake up or whatever. So yeah,
I definitely feel like those parts of Eve are especially me,
and I just kind of leaned into it after I
(10:45):
realized that's what I was doing.
Danielle Robay (10:47):
Did you have to draw any hard line between the two.
Ashley Jordan (10:50):
Of you, Not really. I don't have the same baggage
exactly that Eve has, especially from when she was a teenager.
So those were parts that I just sort of leaned into,
not really knowing and using my imagination more than anything.
But No, I wasn't like I have to stop because
she's too close to me. No, I was fine with that.
I enjoyed that. It was a little bit of catharsist
(11:11):
to say, hey, you're a mess too. Put it on
the page.
Danielle Robay (11:15):
Yeah, especially during the time that you wrote it, right
during the pandemic, and.
Ashley Jordan (11:20):
Oh my goodness, there was so much grief and sadness.
Jamie and Eve were like the vessels I needed to
say everything I wanted to.
Danielle Robay (11:27):
It's really interesting you use the word vessel because I
was thinking about the symbolism that the name Eve carries
the first woman, fresh starts, temptation, reinvention, even and the
first chapter you titled un Original Sin. Yes, why did
you choose Eve as the name for your protagonist for
(11:49):
those reasons?
Ashley Jordan (11:50):
Really? I mean, firstly because her parents are very religious, obviously,
and I just thought the name really made tense for
someone who was navigating what Eve was. She's dealing with
so much guilt, disdesired to sort of carve her own
path outside of what's been expected of her. The way
she walks away from her life is a bit of
a ball from grace in a way, but she's not
(12:10):
punished for it. I think in the end she receives
a reward for doing that. That's where they converge. But
I think that it was definitely a conscious decision to
choose that as her name and take her on that
journey that I did.
Danielle Robay (12:21):
I also noticed that Jamie has long hair and a
beard and is a carpenter. He is, why are you giggling?
Ashley Jordan (12:28):
I know where you're going. I don't know if I
took it out, but there was a reference to him
being like Jesus. But it was not conscious at all
when I was building the character. It just I mean,
he's not perfect, he has a lot of his own issues,
but he was perfect for Eve, I thought, And I
thought it was really important to give her that sort
of I mean, he's almost like a bit little figure
because he's her road to healing. And I think that,
(12:51):
you know, his gentleness with her and his grace with
her felt almost like pastoral in a way, and I
wanted that for her. I really wanted her to have
a soft space for her to land and so while
it wasn't a conscious biblical reference, it ended up being.
Danielle Robay (13:06):
Now I'm giggling because we're talking about how you're inspired
by mad Men and all these TV shows, you were
inspired by the Bible?
Ashley Jordan (13:13):
I was the Bible inspires so much, honestly, So, yes,
that makes sense.
Danielle Robay (13:18):
The first book ever, so your protagonist, our reluctant heroin,
is named Eve, and the inciting incident of the book
has to do with motherhood. It's a miscarriage, and that
was obviously a very intentional choice because that is the
inciting incident, that's what sets off the rest of the story.
(13:40):
Why was that your first plot point?
Ashley Jordan (13:43):
Again, this is me like inserting myself, and I think
a lot of women deal with this, especially once we
reach our thirties. Is what do we want our lives
to look like? Do we want motherhood? Do we believe
in you know, this idea of whatever society believes we
should be. Is that what we actually want? And so
as I struggle with it myself, and I think probably
all my books will delve into that in some way.
(14:04):
But I really wanted for her, having been through this
as a teenager and going through this now have to
delve into what does she actually want? Does she actually
want to be a mother? Or is she doing this
because she feels like it was taken from her? And
so I thought that was just one of many important
conversations about women in motherhood.
Danielle Robay (14:21):
What do I actually want? It's such a hard question, Yeah,
to actually answer.
Ashley Jordan (14:26):
What is society telling me I want? And what do
I actually want?
Danielle Robay (14:29):
I froze my eggs a few years ago. I never
knew if I wanted to be a mother. I didn't
have an answer one way or the other, and going
through that process for the first time, thought I'd be
really upset if this didn't work. I think I really
want this. Have you had a moment in your life,
whether it's motherhood or something separate, that really clarified what
(14:50):
you were wanting?
Ashley Jordan (14:52):
I think yes. And it's funny. I immediately thought of friends,
you know, when Rachel was like hiding her pregnancy and
realized is that pregnant? Like I really wanted this because
Eve he's trying to trick her, And yeah, I've had
that moment actually where it's like, you know, miscarriages are
very common, and so when that's happened, it's like, oh,
I did want this I wasn't sure before Now actually yeah,
(15:14):
that would have been nice, But now I'm just like,
maybe it wouldn't have been Like, look at the world.
I don't know, right, it's really hard to say. I
think at our core, a lot of us well, just
like the option and so many people, it's taken away
from and like with me, she wants it because it's
been taken from her. And so that whole exploration of
the idea of motherhood I think is super interesting because
(15:36):
you get such a small window to do it. It's
not like you can wait your whole life and say, Okay,
I'm ready now. It's like clock is ticking. Figure it out.
Danielle Robay (15:44):
Women have it hard and the clock is allowed. It's
so loud, so ashlely. When we talked at the beginning
of the month, you said you love to write breakups
and you love to write angst. Yes, And there's this
down Draper quote that you reference in your book. Actually,
he says, what is happiness? It's a moment before you
need more happiness.
Ashley Jordan (16:05):
That's such a good line.
Danielle Robay (16:06):
It is such a good line, but it feels like
a callback. Actually, did the title of your book Once
upon a Time in Dollywood because it's like this moment
in time before things fall apart for her where she
says it, yes, and so Dollywood is absolutely perfect. Yes,
And I felt like there was this juxtaposition or almost
like what's the term, like you were telling us something.
Ashley Jordan (16:27):
Mm hmm, a little bit of foreshadowing.
Danielle Robay (16:31):
For that's the word foreshadowing. Thank you to my English
teacher of sixth grade.
Ashley Jordan (16:36):
She's so proud.
Danielle Robay (16:37):
Oh my god.
Ashley Jordan (16:38):
I think it's just generally true. Like the reason it
resonates is because when are you ever satisfied? You know,
shout out to Hamilton. You have these moments where you're
very happy, and then all of a sudden it's like, well,
I'm not happy anymore. It was not like John Draper says,
it's a moment before you be more happiness when that
stuff happens. She's not through her journey yet, so she
(16:59):
very much. Oh you know what, at Dollywood, I was
almost happy. I was so close to it and I
didn't quite get there. And then you know, she has
to figure out that you have to make your own
happiness and it's not it can't be just a moment.
It has to be a state of mind.
Danielle Robay (17:11):
I think, Yeah, I'd never really thought about it just
being a moment, because we are constantly chasing that. Some
of this is really heavy stuff. Did you do anything
to take care of yourself while you were writing.
Ashley Jordan (17:25):
No, As I said, I was in school while I
was writing it, and it was really stressful. I mean,
and I didn't have to do it. I didn't have
to go to school either. I just decided I needed
a distraction. And I think that both of those things
were really great at keeping me away from the heaviness
of the pandemic. So they kind of were my safe
(17:46):
place my self care. It was hard to write sometimes,
and it was hard to do it at the same
time as having an assignment due but I think it
was really good for me and good for my state
of mind because I work in public health as well,
and so the pandemic was very hard and yeah, so
they were my escape routes from that and just sort
of detaching from the hard parts that were happening in
(18:08):
real life.
Danielle Robay (18:09):
Did you sleep No.
Ashley Jordan (18:13):
I don't remember sleeping. I know.
Danielle Robay (18:15):
Yeah, I just imagine you writing furiously with a mask on. Okay,
that's wild. I was so excited to learn that you
were actually a lit up fellow in twenty and twenty three. Yes,
now you're a Reese's Book Club pick. Yes, what did
(18:36):
you get from your lit Up experience?
Ashley Jordan (18:39):
Oh my goodness, so much? Mainly a book that could
be published. But I think the most important thing was
really the people that I met. I mean, my mentor
was Jasmine Guillery which still is crazy. One of those
things that I manifested because they asked me who do
you want your mentor to be? And I said, oh,
maybe this isn't going to happen, but maybe Bolu Mabolola
or Jasmine Guillory and they're like, okay, didn't say anything.
(19:02):
They're just like, okay, thanks for letting us know. And
the next thing I know, I got an email from Jasmine.
So manifesting works.
Danielle Robay (19:08):
Ashley, I call those magical emails. Oh god, yes, that's
so exciting.
Ashley Jordan (19:13):
It was. And on top of the mentorship, you know,
obviously there are five people in your cohort, and we
came away with like this really beautiful friendship where we
support each other constantly. I am so grateful that all
five of us got book deals were in the middle
of it, and we help each other through everything. And
on top of that, the other girls from the other
cohorts are amazing, and we're all kind of going through
this publishing thing together and learning, and it has just
(19:35):
been very important if you're going to enter publishing that
you have a village of supporters obviously your family and friends,
but also people who understand the publishing industry. So having
that is just been invaluable.
Danielle Robay (19:48):
That's so cool to hear. You know, the first time
I ever met Reese Witherspoon, I hugged her and I
thanked her and I said, you gave me a home
in Los Angeles because I had never felt community the
way I do getting to be at Hello Sunshine. Yeah,
that's what I'm hearing from you, is like it gave
(20:09):
you these people to be in it with. It's so underestimated.
Ashley Jordan (20:13):
Yes, you can't really know until you're in it that
publishing is such a lonely industry because nobody outside of
it really knows what's going on. They think that, you know,
if you publish a book, you just put it up
on Amazon or something.
Danielle Robay (20:25):
And writing's not a team sport.
Ashley Jordan (20:27):
It's not. It's very lonely. And so once you get
into this process where you get to make it like
a team effort, and you know, obviously my agent and
my editor are part of my village as well. But yeah,
those peers that I really understand what you're going through
and can give you advice and all that it is.
It's amazing.
Danielle Robay (20:43):
I had the opportunity to interview Jasmine at the very
first shine Away event two years ago. What I love
well amongst the many things I like about her, including
her books, she was an attorney before she became a writer,
and she makes it seem like it's possible for anybody
who has a story on their heart. Is there anything
(21:03):
in particular she said to you that made you feel
like your dream was possible?
Ashley Jordan (21:08):
It was pretty much exactly that. I mean. Like I said,
I wrote this during the pandemic, and I had queried
it and a little bit of success, but I wasn't
quite finding what I was looking for, and I wasn't
sure if this book had a place. And when I
got into lit up, obviously that bellied my confidence a lot.
And what Jazzma specifically said was it's great as is.
I was worried there weren't big enough steaks, or it
(21:30):
was just maybe too quiet, it wasn't hooky enough, or
anything like that. And she said, no, that's what it
should be. The confidence she gave me in my book
really allowed me to pursue publishing further because I really like,
right before I got into lit Up, I was like,
I'm just ready to give up. I'm tired of creating
this book. I'm tired of this book. I was just
ready to let it go. And then lit Up said,
because I applied the first year and didn't get in,
(21:51):
and so the second year they were like, hey, we
know you applied. If you still aren't agent, to feel
free to apply again. And I said, well, I've revised it,
so sure here take it. And I got in somehow,
So I don't.
Danielle Robay (22:04):
Sy I didn't realize that, Ashley, Yeah, this really was
faded for you.
Ashley Jordan (22:10):
I really feel like this. Yeah.
Danielle Robay (22:12):
The title lends itself to Dolly Parton obviously, And we
talked about Beyonce and on your website you say that
you love Lauren Hill, who's my favorite artist of all time?
Ashley Jordan (22:23):
How is this? She did that with one album, just
like and.
Danielle Robay (22:26):
She's still saying it.
Ashley Jordan (22:29):
She should be. It's a perfect album.
Danielle Robay (22:31):
When I write, I cannot even an email, I cannot
have any music on in the background. What's the role
of music when you're writing.
Ashley Jordan (22:39):
I can have music, I can't have music with lyrics,
so I usually just listen to like classical music or
the Succession soundtrack. But I think music is in general
just a very big inspiration. As I mentioned, I wrote
fan fiction for The Walking Dead, and probably the best
and worst idea I ever did was when Lemonade came out.
I created a fan fiction story using Lemonade as the
(23:02):
vehicle to write this crazy story about my favorite fictional couple.
And it's really why I'm here today because somebody from
BuzzFeed read it and she was like, you should really
try to pursue writing, and I'm like, oh bye. But
then I was like, you know what, maybe she's right,
So yeah, that's like my origin story. I think music
is like that. It just sort of inspired the words
the album. I was just talking to my mom about this.
(23:22):
Albums are very much like books, you know, the songs
are chapters. They tell a story. A really good album
is a really good story, So I think that I
use them in that way. They inspired me to write.
Danielle Robay (23:32):
Was there a particular song or songs in general that
you thought about when writing this story?
Ashley Jordan (23:38):
Then I don't think so I mean, if there were
a theme song for this book, it would be Crane's
in the Sky by Solange. When I was editing, I
listened to that a lot, and really the whole soundtrack.
I love my little soundtrack. But I don't think anything
in particular like inspired me to first write it. It
was just sort of, this is a story on my
heart and I want to get it out.
Danielle Robay (24:00):
You talk about this book starting as fan fiction. I
was thinking about how participatory fan fiction is, and it
really gets readers so excited, Like you don't see Reddit
threads about every book, but you do when it's fan fiction.
And Priya Parker wrote a piece about John Baptiste one time,
(24:24):
and she said that his performances are so engaging because
he doesn't perform. He requires participation. He's calling people in
all the time. And even though it started as fan fiction,
it's not anymore. When you look at the way you're
marketing this book, there's a lot of elements that are
(24:45):
still there. You're really calling people in. How did you
think about that?
Ashley Jordan (24:49):
That's really interesting. I didn't think about it in that way,
But I think that you're absolutely right that those bones
are there, because when you are writing fan fiction, you
are posting usually one chapter at a time and getting feedback.
And I have set my readers many times. With this book.
It was very different and much longer. It was like
two hundred thousand words. But yeah, I think that when
(25:10):
I was writing it, I wrote with those sort of
comments in mind, like Okay, don't do this because this
will piss them off, or they like this, Maybe keep
those threads there. But yeah, I think that when you're marketing,
you are also kind of thinking in the same way,
what do people respond to? What did fan fiction readers
respond to? When I was doing that, and so I
didn't realize I was doing that, but you're right. So
(25:32):
they are always in my mind. They're the reason I'm here.
Danielle Robay (25:34):
So when you're writing, are you asking yourself a question?
And I'll give you an example. When we're producing this show,
we constantly ask ourselves what is the audience getting out
of this? Is there something that you're asking yourself, not.
Ashley Jordan (25:47):
In the middle of like writing a chapter, but when
I'm you know, editing and rereading the book, because it's
really hard to keep in perspective that you've read this
eight hundred times. So I have to ask myself someone
who's never read that this book. Is it going to
be useful to them, good to them? Is this writing
going to resonate with them? Because at this point I
hate this book, not really, but yeah, I think when
(26:10):
you are in the throes of editing and reading your
book over and over and over again, you have to
ask yourself, Okay, if I'm a reader who's never read
your work before, what is this saying to them?
Danielle Robay (26:19):
Okay? So usually in every bookmarked conversation, I admit one
thing that I feel embarrassed to admit. Okay, and here's
my time. Are you ready?
Ashley Jordan (26:28):
I'm ready.
Danielle Robay (26:29):
I saw my very first Beyonce show this summer. I
saw Cowboy Carter.
Ashley Jordan (26:34):
You don't have to be embarrassed. That's an amazing first
Beyonce show. But also it's not easy, Like she goes
to stadiums, which are I hate, and you know they're expensive,
so nothing to be ashamed of. I'm very happy that
this was your first Beyonce experience.
Danielle Robay (26:50):
Well, I got so lucky my friend Ali Love whose
peloton instructure took me. Oh yeah, and she can really dance,
so like I'm having fun with her. I'm having fun
watching and on the way home. We're talking about all
of the Beyonce shows and trying to rate them. It's
hard to do. Oh god, So I'm about to ask you,
(27:12):
as somebody who is the Beyonce fan, how would you
rank the tours? Okay, so you're embracing your slide. Really
is the most important question I've asked you.
Ashley Jordan (27:22):
It might be the most important question I've ever been asked.
I reserve the right to change my mind. This is
right now, in this moment these this will be my answer.
Oh my god. I think Renaissance is first because it
was right after the pandemic and it was a very
specific like concoction of joy and queerness, and just like
(27:42):
it was just right place, right time, amazing show. Like
you know, when she does the Renaissance section of Cowboy Carter,
the audience goes crazy because Renaissance was amazing. I think
Cowboy Carter information are right after that. Like I don't
like stadiums, but she puts on an amazing stadium show.
So the production just Leimonad is my favorite album right now,
(28:03):
so Formation is always going to be your way up
there for me. But Cowboy Carter was incredible. I've seen
it four times now, I'm sad it's over, but hopefully
it will come out on something she never gave us formation,
which I'm very upset about.
Danielle Robay (28:15):
I think you spent your entire book advance on Beyonce.
Ashley Jordan (28:18):
Tickets basically, but it was worth it.
Danielle Robay (28:22):
So millennial exactly.
Ashley Jordan (28:25):
I told you I was millennial. And then after that,
let's see. I think I just basically go backwards in
order because she just sort of evolved with every album,
So missus Carter, and then I am Beyonce experience, and
then dangerously, I hope I didn't miss anything. Don't come
at me be high.
Danielle Robay (28:43):
That was great. You have a two book deal, and
we've been talking a lot about manifesting. What are you manifesting?
What are you calling in next?
Ashley Jordan (28:53):
I would like to I don't know if it's going
to work out because I'm kind of having trouble with
what exactly the story is going to be, but I
would really love to write something about Eve's best friend
Maya and her fiance Chavon. We'll see. Me and my
publisher are like trying to figure it out right now,
and so we'll see what happens. If it's not this book,
then maybe some other book. Because I would like to
(29:13):
revisit them and revisit even Jamie through them, So I
think that would be great.
Danielle Robay (29:18):
What about them are particularly interesting to you right now?
Ashley Jordan (29:23):
Well, they have been together since college. I would like
to perhaps and maybe eliminate sort of way go back
through their history and see where they've been and how
they got to this place that they are now.
Danielle Robay (29:36):
That's cool. Okay, this is my final question, Ashley. I
love asking our guests what they've bookmarked this week. It
can be a weird fact, a fun quote, something you've
saved on Instagram, something you texted your best friend about.
What have you bookmarked this week?
Ashley Jordan (29:54):
I have books marked actually today the Black Romance Book Festival,
which is in Atlanta, which I app love. I told
you we have a good history of festivals and it
celebrates black romance, which we need to do more of.
So it'll be in Atlanta next year, and I'm waiting
impatiently because they sold out really fast last year, so
I'm waiting for those tickets to go on sale and
so i can attend, which I'm very excited about.
Danielle Robay (30:16):
So we're coming up on the end of our conversation,
which means it's time for speed read. So here's how
it works. We're putting sixty seconds on the clock and
we're going to see how many rapid fire literary questions
you can get through. Are you ready?
Ashley Jordan (30:31):
I'm okay?
Danielle Robay (30:32):
Three?
Ashley Jordan (30:33):
Two?
Danielle Robay (30:34):
What's one literary trope you would ban forever?
Ashley Jordan (30:38):
Please don't cancel me. But I do not like enemies
to lovers, like if I'm your enemy, we were not
falling along?
Danielle Robay (30:44):
That's a popular one.
Ashley Jordan (30:45):
I know. I'm sorry. I hate it.
Danielle Robay (30:47):
What's one that you'll defend with your life?
Ashley Jordan (30:49):
Grumpy Sunshine and forced Proximity.
Danielle Robay (30:51):
My parents are Grumpy Sunshine. I love. What's a book
you wish you'd written?
Ashley Jordan (30:57):
Ooh, that's such a good one. And America Marriage by
Tyrie Jones probably my favorite book of all time.
Danielle Robay (31:03):
What's your favorite book? To recommend that one? What's your
favorite book to gift?
Ashley Jordan (31:08):
A love song for Ricky Wilde? Bye Ta Williams. I
love that one. It's so good.
Danielle Robay (31:13):
Your book is on the shelf at a local bookstore
in Atlanta. Who are you shelved in Between?
Ashley Jordan (31:18):
I actually thought about this before because I was writing
something to her. But I feel like I would be
next to Abby Mnis because of our names, and I
hope I would be.
Danielle Robay (31:29):
It's like school roll call.
Ashley Jordan (31:30):
Yeah.
Danielle Robay (31:32):
What's your favorite Dolly song to cry to?
Ashley Jordan (31:34):
This is obviously Whitney made it first, but I will
always love you ball every time.
Danielle Robay (31:39):
Yes, favorite Beyonce song to dance too.
Ashley Jordan (31:44):
I'm gonna go with when Today, Tyrant.
Danielle Robay (31:46):
What's your favorite page to screen adaptation?
Ashley Jordan (31:48):
Oh, Pride and Prejudice two thousand pie.
Danielle Robay (31:54):
What's a book you wish you could read again for
the first time?
Ashley Jordan (31:58):
Beloved by Toni Morrison.
Danielle Robay (32:00):
Oh, I just finished that one a few weeks ago for.
Ashley Jordan (32:03):
The first time. M hm, oh, I'm jealous. Yeah, I
wish I could read that again for the first time.
Danielle Robay (32:07):
It was amazing. Okay, last one, What is a book
that shaped the way you see the world?
Ashley Jordan (32:13):
The color purple? I think that, Yeah, I see myself,
I see my mom, I see my grandmother in it.
It's yeah, that's definitely the one.
Danielle Robay (32:22):
Ashley. This was such a wonderful conversation. You are as
literary as you are fun. It was like so great
to talk pop culture and books with you. Thank you
so much for your time and just a huge congratulations.
I'm really excited for all your success.
Ashley Jordan (32:38):
Thank you so much. This was amazing. You made this
so easy, and I really appreciate it, and thank you
for the compliment. I really aprecipate that too.
Danielle Robay (32:48):
Before we go, we're bringing you something new, okay, a
little literary bonus just for bookmarked listeners. We're calling it
Turn Up the Story. Every month, we're teaming up with
the editor at Apple Books to spotlight one of their
favorite debut novels. These are fresh voices with unforgettable stories,
and they're handpicked with this audience in mind. This month,
(33:11):
their pick is The Hounding by Zena Be Purvis. The
Hounding is eerie in the best way, clever, Gothic, and
a little bit defiant. It follows five sisters living in
an eighteenth century village where conforming to social norms isn't
exactly their strong suit. But things take a turn when
rumors begin to swirl, accusations of supernatural power, whispers of
(33:34):
something darker, and suddenly the sisters are forced to confront
what's more dangerous the stories people tell about them or
the truths that they keep for themselves. This novel blends
atmosphere with social commentary, and Purvis has a style that'll
wrap you in a fog and keep you there if
you love Shirley Jackson or The Essex Serpent, or if
(33:55):
you just want something moody and brilliant to listen to,
you'll want to spend a little time with this one.
For a limited time, you can get the audiobook of
The Hounding for just nine dollars and ninety nine cents
only on Apple Books. And if you're curious about what
inspired Zenabepurvis to write this haunting debut, you'll find that too.
Head to Apple dot co slash Debut Listens to listen
(34:16):
in and while you're there, don't miss the full collection
of debut audio books that the Apple Books editors love,
all chosen with bookmarked listeners in mind. Happy listening, and
we'll see you next time. And if you want a
little bit more from us, come hang with us on socials.
We're at Reese's Book Club on Instagram serving up books,
(34:39):
vibes and behind the scenes magic. And I'm at Danielle
Robe Roba y come say hi and df me And
if you want to go nineties on us, call us. Okay,
our phone line is open, so call now at one
five zero one two nine, one three three seven nine.
That's one five oh one two nine three, three, seven nine,
(35:03):
share your literary hot takes, book recommendations, questions about the
monthly pick, or let us know what you think about
the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might
just hear yourself in our next episode, so don't be shy,
give us a ring, and of course, make sure to
follow Bookmarked by Reese's book Club on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your shows until then
(35:28):
via in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of
Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcast. It's executive produced by Reese
Witherspoon and me Danielle Robe. Production is by Acast Creative Studios.
Our producers are Matty Foley, Brittany Martinez, Sarah Schleid, and
Darby Masters. Our production assistant is Avery Loftis. Jenny Kaplan
(35:51):
and Emily Rudder are the executive producers for a Cast
Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive
producers for Hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa Kristin Perla, Kelly Turner
and Ashley Rappaport are associate producers for Reese's book Club.
Ali Perry and Lauren Hansen are the executive producers for
iHeart Podcasts, and Tim Palazola is our showrunner.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.