December 2, 2025 • 61 mins
We all know and love Zosia Mamet from Girls, where she played Shoshanna Shapiro. But now we have a whole new reason to be obsessed with her: Zosia’s searing new collection of personal essays, Does This Make Me Funny? This week, Danielle and Zosia are getting a little “woo-woo” with it all, talking about everything from loneliness to falling in love to the pain of loving what you’re meant to do.
BOOKS MENTIONED:
The Heir Apparent by Rebecca Armitage
The Princess Diaries by Meg Cabot
My Year of Rest and Relaxation by Ottessa Moshfegh
Does This Make Me Funny? By Zosia Mamet
My First Popsicle edited by Zosia Mamet
Gone Before Goodbye by Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben
Pippi Longstocking by Astrid Lindgren
Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen
Sweetbitter by Stephanie Danler
Stray: A Memoir by Stephanie Danler
Me Talk Pretty One Day by David Sedaris
The Heart’s Invisible Furies by John Boyne
The Saddle Club series by Bonnie Bryant
The Year of the Horses Courtney Maum
The Clean Plate: Eat, Reset, Heal by Gwyneth Paltrow
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Bookmarked by Reese's book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi,
I'm Danielle Robe and welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's book Club.
We have two great conversations this week, so in a
bit we're talking with Zasha Mammott, author and actor best
known for I Mean, Let's be honest, fan fave Girl's
character Shoshana Shapiro.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I love you so much, like the Ends of the
World in back so much. But sometimes I love you
the way that like I feel sorry for a monkey,
Like they're just they need so much help and they're
in such an ugly cage.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
But first, it's the first Tuesday of the month, so
you know what that means. It's time to introduce the
latest Reese's book Club pick, Reese Queen, take it away.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Happy holidays all you readers out there. Okay, I'm really
excited about the book club pick in December. It is
called The Air Appearance by Rebecca Armitage. It's full of
family drama, royal intrigue, and one woman deciding what she
wants her future to be. It's got incredibly high stakes
and an amazing love triangle in it.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I think you're going to love it.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It's the perfect book to cozy up with this month,
so please enjoy The Air Apparent by Rebecca Armitage.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Congratulations to Rebecca. There's so much that sounds enticing about
this month's read, but what really hooked me, guys, is
the real life parallels between Rebecca's fictional royal family and
the actual royals. She's a journalist who spent a lot
of her career covering the British monarchy, so she knows
her stuff. And before we dive into the Air Apparent
(01:35):
this month, it wouldn't be Reese's Book Club if we
couldn't give you a little behind the scenes scoop straight
from the author herself. Rebecca, Welcome to the club.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Thank you so much. It is the owner of my life.
I can't believe it.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Oh, it's so cool. And December twod is your pub day,
your very first one? Cue the confetti.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Woo.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
How are you celebrating Champagne both? What's happening?
Speaker 4 (02:01):
I think there's going to be a croissant breakfast, and
then I'm going to go to some bookstores and offer
to sign their copies, and then we're going to have
a launch party, and there's going to be sparkling wine.
And my father in law used to have a vineyards,
so we'll be cracking into his back catalog.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Okay, this is fabulous and so well planned out. Yeah,
of course, Okay. Something I really love about a Reese's
Book Club pick is that it is a total surprise
until it's released with that sticker on the cover. I
have to know who you called first. Who was the
first person you told about being a Reesa's Book Club pick?
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I told my husband in a sort of wordless, weird way,
because I got an email quite early in the morning
from my American publisher, Reagan Artha, and it was a
congratulations Reese Witherspooners picked your book. And I thought, no, no,
I'm hallucinating.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
That's not right.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
I've misread that email and it took I think I've
read it about five times, and I was like, no,
I must be wrong. I need an opinion. So I
went into my husband's office at home and just wordlessly
handed him the phone and he said, oh my god,
You've been chosen for Reese's Book Club. And until he
said that, I fully did not believe it.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
This is your first novel and you spent years telling
other people's stories as a journalist. Was there a passage
or a scene where you thought, this is it, this
is why I write.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Yes, it's going to sound kind of ghoulish, but there
isn't avalanche scene fairly early in the book, and at
that point I really did not have confidence that I
was going to be able to do this, Like every
day was really hard. But I got to that avalanche
scene and I'd done all this research, wats so many
YouTube clips of avalanches, And by the time I finished
(03:41):
that scene, I thought, I really like what I've just written.
I don't know if I'm going to finish this book,
but I feel really proud of this passage and it
just gave me enough boost to keep going.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And your social media rollout for this book is so good.
I saw that you posted a mood board sort of
like a montage on Instagram. So can you get a
little taste. If you're a fan of Blink, you'll love
this book.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
Yes, I would love to.
Speaker 6 (04:06):
So.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I think if you liked The Crown, you will like this.
If you liked Succession, there's a dash of succession in there.
If you like Taylor Jenkins read, I think you'll like
this book and there's just a tiny little sprinkling which
is everyone, and there's just the tiniest little dash of
the Princess Diaries as well. So that might sound like
(04:26):
a weird combination, but I promise it all makes sense
once you've devoured it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So, Rebecca, I love every book club, but in your
average book club, you don't get to chat with the
author before you dive into the book. So I have
you here, I'm about to dive in. What should I
keep in mind? What should we keep in mind as
we read along.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I want to know if you like Lexi because she's
a little bit complicated. You know, she's not the perfect heroine,
She's got some flaws, So I want to know if
you like her. Do they think Lexi made the right choice?
Because I've heard from people who you were really happy
with the ending, and I've heard from people who wish
she had done the opposite. So ask yourself what you
(05:06):
hope will happen, and then see how you feel at
the end. And I want to know what you think
about Inherited Power at the end. I think that's probably
the thorniest question, is did it change your view or
make you think differently about what happens when people are
given power instead of earning it.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Or taking it exactly. Yes, well, this is a very
royal book, so I have some fun royal questions for you.
Who's your favorite royal to interview?
Speaker 4 (05:35):
I've never interviewed it royal because they rarely put themselves forward,
But my dream royal would be Princess Anne.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Who's the best dressed Royal?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
I really don't think anyone's topped Princess Diana. I think
she remains all time.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Oh my god, the cool nineties jeans and the cowboy
boots and the T shirts the coolest.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Who's the most underrated royal? Ah?
Speaker 4 (06:00):
I look, I actually think Queen Camilla is underrated because
I think she comes with a lot of baggage. But
I think she, by all accounts, is the most fun
person to hang out with. And I think she's done
so much interesting charity work. She does sexual violence, so
she's really picked interesting causes that I think have pushed
the boundary. So I think she's actually a really cool woman.
But because of the legacy of the Diana Child's love triangle,
(06:23):
she's often dismissed. But I think there's an interesting.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Character there who's a royal that you'd want to have
a drink with.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
I'm going to go with Harry. I think he would
be fun, and I think he'd have good gossip, and
he just seems like he knows how to party.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
What's a royal scandal that you secretly cannot stop reading about?
Speaker 4 (06:43):
You know, I really don't think we've ever got past
the Diana Charles Camilla years. Like I think that that
is now a modern day fairytale. Really, Like you think
about the way everyone has an opinion and everyone remembers that,
and it's it's just so complicated because you see everyone's
point of view, Like you feel for Diana, this young
(07:05):
young woman, and you feel for Child's who was kind
of pushed into a marriage he didn't want and did
it out of duty instead of love. I just think
it's the most complicated epic love story that's ever been told.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Rebecca. I'm so excited to dive in, and I can't
wait to ask you a million questions in a few
weeks when you come back.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Okay, it's your turn to jump in, so grab the
air Apparent and read or listen with us all month long.
I'm going to be reading along with you, So as
you go, email me voice memos with all of your thoughts,
your questions, your hot takes. I particularly want to know
who you think the fictional characters are based on, So
send me a voice memo or an email at bookmark
(07:50):
at Reese's book club dot com, and at month's end
we'll sit down with Rebecca again and dig into all
the juicy details. Okay, we're gonna switch gears from put
together princess vibes to the messy woman genre. You know,
the kind of complex, flawed female characters who are navigating
(08:13):
chaotic lives and kind of making some terrible choices along
the way. Well, I'm thinking about Amy Dunn in Gone
Girl or the anonymous twenty something in My Year of
Rest and Relaxation. You kind of love them for their rebellion, right,
but you're also kind of screaming at them through the pages.
But what if the messy arc was part of our
own story? It definitely was for me, and I think
(08:35):
if you've been a twenty something in this world, it
probably was for you too. And Zasha Mammott's new collection
of essays Does This Make Me Funny? Might be a
new nonfiction addition to the messy woman canon, the essays
are super raw and vulnerable, taking us into bad relationships,
bad parties, body issues, awkward auditions, and creating her most
(08:58):
famous character, Shoshana from Girls and Sasha doesn't pull many punches.
It's endearing. She knows that you'll be screaming at her
younger self through the pages, and she even opens the
book acknowledging her NEPO baby status. So if you're looking
for a conversation that hits some girls nostalgia and takes
you to vulnerable, creative places with a side of literary lusciousness,
(09:22):
you're in the right place. Let's turn the page with
Zasha Mammott. Sasha, welcome to the club.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
to be here.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Your head was bobbing like it was a real club.
I was into it.
Speaker 7 (09:37):
I think I'm feeling the moves because I went to
like an aerobic dance class this morning where it felt
like I was in the club, and now it just
feels like I can't walk upstairs without crying.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
Because my like's hurt so much. Yeah, it's like that
specific area between where you're b and you're like the what.
Speaker 7 (10:02):
Is that your hamstrings? I guess meet when you like
do a workout that makes you remember that exists, you like,
you're like ooh oh no, oh no.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Well neither one of us understand science apparently. So I'm
so happy we're doing a book club podcast today. Yes,
I feel like we really have a lot to talk about.
I think our readers, including me, hold so much affection
for your characters. Showshanna included on Girls, and I opened
your book and I was thinking, Okay, this is an
(10:34):
essay collection, and you're kind of living out the dream
of Lena Dunham's character Hannah on the show. I kept thinking, like,
I am the voice of a generation? Does this book
make you the voice of our generation?
Speaker 7 (10:48):
Oh? My god? I mean I would never deign to
like give myself that Moniker, but I think it's just like,
you know, I'm the voice of like maybe a very
specific brand of like anxious millennial girl with specific childhood trauma.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
So you grew up in this very big theater family
and you just shared your first nonfiction book. This is
also in the essay realm. You've had a column for Glamour.
Nonfiction really pulls you in It seems did you pull
(11:32):
inspiration from anyone specifically?
Speaker 7 (11:35):
Even Babbitt's was a really big influence on me.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
What did you want to emulate about her?
Speaker 7 (11:42):
I really love that she has this ability to write
about herself in a way that never feels.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Arrogant or self centered, and she is able to.
Speaker 7 (12:00):
Just break your heart and make you laugh within the
same paragraph. And she always, to me, just feels like
she's just talking to you, Like her stories just read
to me like you're hanging out with a good friend.
I feel very similarly about David Sedaris, like there's just
(12:21):
something that's so unabashed about the way that they both write,
and I think they walk this really fine line of
oftentimes sharing these very dark things about themselves but never
making it feel like too much. I've just always really
admired that and been grateful for that, because their writing
(12:45):
feels so honest, but it doesn't feel like I don't
know what better adjective to you is other than abusive.
Like you know, sometimes you read someone's story and you're
just like, I don't even know how to metabolize this
because it's so oh, it's so much, and I knew
I didn't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
That's interesting because how do you, as a writer avoid that?
Because I think you did avoid that, and you share
some things that I think could fall into the realm
of feeling really hard to metabolize. There's definitely trauma with
a capital T in there, not a lower casey. How
(13:30):
did you avoid that?
Speaker 7 (13:34):
I really just tried to tell a story, like something
that was very much a driving force for me when
writing this book.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
When I started to feel.
Speaker 7 (13:46):
Unworthy or overwhelmed by how intimate I was getting, I
steal this thing from my husband. Whenever people ask him
like why he is an actor, He's like, well, the
whole reason that we are storytellers, that like storytelling exists
is to help people feel less alone.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
I would just think about telling.
Speaker 7 (14:09):
It in a way that would maybe help someone feel
seen or give them something to like latch onto. Anytime
it got too dark, I was like, oh, well, that
won't be helpful. I don't think that will be helpful
for someone. I don't think that that will be like additive.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
I like having a prism or a structure or a
lens whenever I dive into a project, and so I
can like ask myself questions based on does this serve,
x Y and Z. It sounds like you did that.
Would you ever dive into fiction?
Speaker 5 (14:44):
I don't know. Fiction is hard.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
It seems so hard.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
It seems so hard.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
It's how we don't know how authors like plot it
all out.
Speaker 7 (14:55):
I don't know how they do it. I just read
Reese and Harlan's book. I devoured it. I read it
in like a day and a half, and I just
I love to read thrillers, especially when I'm working, because
I need something that's really going to pull me in
because my brain's so overwhelmed by words to begin with.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
But I'm always just like, how how did you do?
How did you do that?
Speaker 7 (15:22):
Like it's just it's so crazy to me the way, specifically,
like thriller writers will weave these stories and these twists
and these crazy pop points. I don't know if my
brain has the ability to do that.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I feel the same way. I also devoured the book.
I was so mad. I started kind of late at
like nine or ten PM, and I ended up did
the same album until two am. And yeah, then I
interviewed Harlan and Reese, and Harlan was like, yeah, that's
that's what we were going for yeah, totally.
Speaker 5 (15:53):
I couldn't put it down. I was just like, I
have to know.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
So you open up in your book book with a
rundown of your family tree, and I knew that you
had an artistic family. I did not realize that you
stood on artistic legacy the way you did, both from
your mom and your dad. What was the decision to
open with the nepo baby confession, especially when that's such
(16:18):
a hot button term nowadays.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
It was actually my husband's idea.
Speaker 7 (16:24):
I was sort of anxiety dumping to him one night
about all of my fears about the book and what
the reception might be and what people might say, and
he was like, well, what if you just beat them
to the punch, Like what if you just say it
first and then you kind of control the narrative to
a certain extent.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
And I was like, yeah, a really good idea. I'm
gonna tape that one.
Speaker 7 (16:48):
And I liked the idea that, yeah, if I put
it out on the table, like if I literally started
the book with it, then I was kind of like
calling myself out first.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
When I read it, I thought, oh, this is interesting
because the term nepo baby, we all look at it
and think, Oh, these people have so much privilege, and
yet you made it clear that it comes with a
whole other set of pain and problems that we probably
(17:22):
don't understand. You wrote something that really hit me. You
said sometimes you felt like you were left on the
doorstep as a baby. What did you mean by that?
Speaker 7 (17:31):
It's funny, It's like I come from these artists, and
I obviously feel a kinship to them in that way,
but I just sort of always felt like an outsider.
Like even within my family, I just always sort of
felt like like I just didn't really fit, and so
(17:57):
I just often wondered if I was like the milkman's
child or something.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
There was like this through line of really deep seated
loneliness in your book.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 7 (18:10):
I think that feeling of otherness was this thing that
just that I've had, like since I can remember. I
do come from this sort of intense family of very
specific humans with you know, specific large personalities. I was
(18:30):
very much the one as a kid who was like
I wasn't like getting in there. The first time my
husband came to dinner at my dad's house, he was like,
it's like the Hunger Games of wit. It's like you,
it's it's the dinner table is literally and I was like, yeah,
it's always been like that. But but I'm I've never
(18:52):
been someone who wants to like get in the ring.
I'm always just kind of sitting back and observing. And
so I think, yeah, that kind of permeated a lot
of my upbringing, and it's one of the reasons that
I was so obsessed with reading, because books were really
some of my best friends. They were like those characters,
(19:15):
those authors, those words were they were the things that
I interacted with the most.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I had a light bulb go off when I read
your book, because in a similar and different way, I
have felt deep seated loneliness growing up, and there would
be no reason for it, Like I didn't grow up
with artists who lived interior lives. You could never pinpoint why.
(19:47):
I just had always felt it. And one time I
was talking to a therapist and I was thinking about
breaking up with someone, and she said, well, what's the fear,
And I said, well, I'll be alone. I'll be in
my bed staring at the ceiling with the lights off,
just so alone. And the therapist was sort of a
(20:09):
witch in a good way, and she goes, huh. That's
so interesting because you have dedicated your entire career to connection,
which is the opposite of loneliness. And you said you
felt belonging when you started working, and I was like,
oh wow. And I'll be honest when I went into
(20:31):
your book because you're so funny, thinking I was going
to laugh, and I did. There were parts that were
very funny, but my heart really hurt for the little
version of you. Do you feel like the people that
have read this book so far have connected with that
feeling of loneliness? Is there a chapter or a moment
(20:53):
that is being reflected back to you?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Not necessarily.
Speaker 7 (21:01):
That's so interesting that your therapist said that to you,
And it's fascinating right because it's like, I think the
same goes for acting or directing. This need to find
connection and community and to like meet on this very
specific playing field of art and like how close that
(21:25):
can make you feel to someone so quickly. I don't
think that there's necessarily one chapter in particular that people
are like that that one, but I think it was
something that was important for me to imbue the book
with because it was such an overarching experience for so
(21:46):
much of my life, and like even when I started working,
it still kind of followed me, like Lena when we
first started shooting Season one, because I wasn't like particularularly
close with my family in the way that like everyone
else was, and I moved to New York by myself,
and I didn't have a good high school experience, so
(22:09):
I didn't have like super close high school friends, like
I didn't really have a support system. She used to
call me Pippy long Stocking when I would tell them
stories about my childhood. She like, it's like you raised yourself,
It's like you were a forest child.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
And I was like, I mean not know. And so
I think as I started to.
Speaker 7 (22:36):
Hunt down that support system, I was so to your
point of like being afraid to break up with someone.
It's like when you experience true, true loneliness and then
you come across someone or something that could potentially quell that,
you're almost like afraid to touch it because you're like,
(22:58):
but if I touch it and then it goes away,
what will I do? I will cease to exist. And
it almost feels easier to just be like I'm just
not going to touch it, Like I just don't want
to know how good it feels on the other side.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Absolutely, that's so well said.
Speaker 7 (23:18):
I really just wanted to try to express that as
like intimately as I could in the book, to also
be like, you're not alone in feeling alone and that loneliness.
There is an antidote to it. You just have to
trust that there is, and you have to find it
(23:40):
or be open to it finding you.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Do you feel like you do not feel as lonely anymore?
Speaker 5 (23:48):
Yeah? Very much. Not so. I mean, my husband was
like a heap was a huge part of that. When
I realized I was in love with him.
Speaker 7 (23:59):
I remember day it happened, and we were doing this
play together and it was a Saturday, so we had
a matinee and a night show and we would like
go take a nap in between. I remember we were
laying in my bed in my first apartment in New
York and I suddenly was like, oh no, I'm in
love with him. And I started hysterically crying, and he
was like, what is wrong?
Speaker 5 (24:19):
What is wrong with you? It's like a said lovely
Saturday afternoon.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
But it was because I realized once I said those
words out loud, I couldn't take them back, and once
I admitted that, I was like, that makes me so
vulnerable because what.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
If he leaves?
Speaker 7 (24:40):
Yeah, And I think it took me a very long
time to trust that he wasn't going to leave, and
I started to trust that it was it was okay.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
But I don't know. Have you watched.
Speaker 7 (24:58):
Platonic, that show with Rose Byrne and Seth Rogen. It's great,
it's so funny, but there's this there's this running joke
in the latest season with one of the other characters
as this podcast, and her tagline is don't ask, don't get,
which I think is it sounds kind of silly at first,
(25:18):
but it's so true. It's like, don't ask, don't get.
That was a big learning curve for me. I was like, oh, yeah,
if you are sort of like in a corner just observing,
being quiet, people maybe don't know that you need help,
or that you're sad, or you're lonely, or you're looking
for connection. So you have to ask for it and
(25:39):
then then you like open up the doors to getting it.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
But if you don't ask for it, you can't get it.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Every week I ask our guests what they've bookmarked, so
it can be a song, a quote, a poem, something
that you texted your friend, something that you saved on Instagram. Zasha,
have you bookmarked this week?
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Oh my god? Wait, actually, hold on.
Speaker 7 (26:06):
I was having lunch right before this with my manager
and we were you know how people tag stuff on
the streets, like the sidewalks of New York all the time.
We were walking back from lunch and she stopped and
like grabbed my arm and pointed down to the sidewalk
and I took a photo of it, and it just
(26:29):
says someone in chalk wrote still a kid with dreams.
And I was like, I love that so much because
it's true, true, And I thought that was a really good.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
Reminder.
Speaker 7 (26:48):
I thought that was a really good reminder to be like, Yeah,
I mean, I feel like often at the end of
the day, we're all just still kids with dreams.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
At the end of the book, you write. Having written
a book is great, but the writing itself is torture,
which I think is funny. I want a window into
your process here. When you start these essays, do you
start with a specific feeling or a specific scene or moment,
like what's the seed for you?
Speaker 5 (27:19):
It depends.
Speaker 7 (27:20):
At times, it was a feeling like this very specific
sensation that I wanted to try to convey.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
And then there were other ones that there were.
Speaker 7 (27:34):
Memories or stories that came to me, but I was like,
that's the scene that will start it. Like the one
I wrote about that really horrible relationship that I had.
I had like a flashback of the headboard with the
bullet hole in it, and I was like, Yeah, that's
it's got to start somewhere.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Around there draws people in so quickly.
Speaker 7 (27:56):
Oftentimes there are just these very very specific, like divots
in a memory that I think are either like the
most joyous, the most traumatic, the most potent, And I
just think that often a story wants to be told
(28:19):
from that jumping off point. My dad used to say
this thing to me all the time growing up, when
we would watch movies together, you have to burn the
first reel.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
I forget how long reel.
Speaker 7 (28:30):
Is, but I think it's like five minutes maybe, And
he was always like, go back and watch the first
five to ten minutes of that movie.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
You don't need it start a scene already in it.
Speaker 7 (28:44):
Naturally, when we go to tell stories, we'll often circle
back to something from the beginning, but we'll start a
little down the road like organically, because that's often the
point where things start to get juicy, and that was
just where the stories wanted to start from a lot
(29:05):
of the time in my brain.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
That's such a great writing tip. Thank you for sharing
that with us. For sure, I'm wondering how you're trusting
your memories because some of these stories involve other people.
Are you calling them and asking them how they remember
things because some of these are from a while ago?
Speaker 5 (29:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (29:27):
No, For the most part, I wrote about people I
didn't like particularly, so I wouldn't say we have like
a great continuing relationship, so I didn't call to check
in with them, so good Like.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
People ask me a lot if I kept journals.
Speaker 7 (29:50):
Because the stories are oftentimes from a very long time ago.
But I think I realized when I I was writing
a lot of these essays that many of these experiences
were like pretty deeply traumatic ones or just formatively upsetting.
(30:12):
I guess they were like kind of fossilized in my brain.
And I think it's because I really put them away
after they happened.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
Like, what is the thing they say about memory?
Speaker 7 (30:24):
Every time you remember, you remember the memory of the memory.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
So the more you.
Speaker 7 (30:29):
Remember something it continues to dilute in your mind because
it becomes like that far removed from itself. And I
think I really had not remembered these things very much
throughout my life because I didn't want.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
To carry them.
Speaker 7 (30:48):
Yeah, and then they kind of were like mummified almost,
So they felt very potent and very vivid in my mind.
And I made sure when I was writing to create
caveats around things or moments within the stories I was
telling that got murky. I would try to say, like,
(31:11):
this part isn't as clear to me, or like I
don't remember this specific moment, but I remember before and after.
I tried to like out myself as a potentially unreliable narrator.
But yeah, everything felt very clear and colorful to me.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
I kind of love that you don't tie everything up
in this neat bow either, Like you do share what
you've learned, and you're healing and you're evolving, but you're
very clear eyed and honest about it all, and you
say that it's still hard. So I closed your book
and I thought, Okay, is this messy woman or is
(31:56):
this complicated girl? And I landed on this is complicated
girl more so, so tell me if you think I'm
right or wrong on that. But my question to you
is that I think writers, and I'm learning this more
and more to be true from this podcast, is that
writers often write books or characters or themes that they'd
(32:19):
wish they'd had in early iterations of themselves. Did you
write this collection or an essay, even in particular for
young Zasha.
Speaker 7 (32:31):
That's really interesting. I hadn't actually thought about that. That
makes a lot of sense. I'm sure my therapist would
have something to say about that. But I do think
so much of what I wrote that was like revealing
about things I had struggled with, or the dark parts
(32:53):
or the ugly parts of me.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
I wrote for.
Speaker 7 (32:59):
Maybe a iteration of who I was when I was struggling,
thinking like, if this book existed from someone else when
I was young, it would have helped this sound self
congratulatory and I don't mean it this way, but like
it would have helped.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
Me to hear something so.
Speaker 7 (33:24):
Revealing and raw yeah from someone else, and just to
literally be like, oh, wow, I'm not the only one
going through this.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Is there an essay that you would tell your eleven
year old self, like read this one first, or skip
this one.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
My god.
Speaker 7 (33:43):
I mean, I don't know if this book is appropriate
for eleven even year olds.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
That's fair, that's really fair.
Speaker 7 (33:51):
I don't know why this popped into my head the
other day, but I I was cooking dinner and I
had this memory of the first time I ever.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
Felt skinny.
Speaker 7 (34:08):
I was in a dressing room in Abercrombie and Fitch
trying on jeans, and I remember.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Needing so millennial.
Speaker 5 (34:18):
It's so millennial.
Speaker 7 (34:19):
I mean, I probably haven't been in one sense. I
was twelve, and I remember needing a smaller size and
I remember just feeling this like surge of relief and power.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
It was like it was like my whole body lit.
It's sort of like what falling in love felt like.
I was just like, oh my god, this feels it
was like a dopamine hit.
Speaker 7 (34:51):
And I just had this flash of that moment and
I hadn't thought about it in so long, and I
was thinking about how young I was, Like I meet
twelve year olds now and I'm just like, oh, my god.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
You were a child. And I think.
Speaker 7 (35:11):
If I had had someone who could talk to me
intelligently and from experience during that time period on the
level that I was at because I think a lot
of what I struggled with was like having a lot
of adults talk to me in like recovery language as
(35:32):
opposed to just like talking to me, and it just
felt like no one understood what I was going through.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
I wrote a chapter.
Speaker 7 (35:45):
About going on a road trip with my husband and
the lack of mirrors and how it literally felt.
Speaker 5 (35:52):
Like a detox. Maybe I would give eleven year old
me that chapter.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
We had Alison Williams on the podcast a few episodes ago,
and I was like, in real life, are you a
Marnie a show Sha?
Speaker 5 (36:13):
Hannah?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Who are you? And she was like, I feel like
I'm a Marnie Rising, which I thought was so funny.
So are you a showsh in real life?
Speaker 6 (36:27):
For you?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
So Arnie Rising? Hannah?
Speaker 5 (36:29):
Arnie? Am I a Arnie Rising?
Speaker 7 (36:31):
I mean I am kind of type A in many ways,
Like sometimes when I get on a cleaning kick, my
husband has to stop me and be like, don't throw
everything away in the drawer in my office, because some
of those things are actually important. I was talking to
one of my dearest childhood friends the other day who
(36:52):
I've been friends with since eighth grade, and we were
talking about this actually because she read the show essay.
She was like, it's so interesting to me that you
say you're so different from her.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
She's like, she's kind of eighth grade you.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Oh wow.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
And I was like wait what and she was like yeah,
you know, like think about yourself in eighth grade.
Speaker 7 (37:18):
And I really sat with that for a while because
I've been living with this narrative of like we are
intrinsic opposites. I sort of thought maybe that she was
like a past life version of me that was like
burned at the stake during the Salem witch Trials, Like
that's where my mind went.
Speaker 5 (37:37):
And she was like, no, she's just you in eighth grade.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
It's so much more regular, so.
Speaker 7 (37:44):
Much more regular. Obviously not not where I go. I
just have to make it more elaborate.
Speaker 5 (37:51):
Than that in my mind.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
But it's because you're a true writer.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Maybe maybe I am more of a show than I
think or thought. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I always love showsh, so I'm happy to hear that
you do, right too?
Speaker 5 (38:07):
You do? Yes, I mean I love her so much.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
That's so sweet. Yeah, you wrote that Zasha went offline
to make space for showsh to take over for that
period of time. I am really curious if you're open
to sharing what going offline meant, Like, how did you
make room for her? Did you feel like you actually
left yourself in a way for a little bit.
Speaker 5 (38:33):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 7 (38:36):
I've always sort of been that person that will stare
off into space, Like I just did this movie with
Annie Murphy, and she would sometimes I'd come to and
she would be like, where'd you go, Like like just
straight up in my She'd be like, what planet were
you on? I'm like, I actually have no idea, just
like the veil comes down and I don't know where
(38:57):
I go. Some iteration of that happened pretty much every
time I'm working, Like I go a little bit into
a fugue state and sort of come.
Speaker 5 (39:06):
To and they call cut because I think I don't know.
It's like.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
We're like wired as act or at least I am
to sort of like be as present as possible. So
it feels a little like jumping into a pool, and
that time between action and cut is like the moment
you're under the water before you emerge if you dive
off a high diving board. And I think with her,
(39:39):
it just felt like a more potent version of that.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
This makes so much sense because I read that you
like to read for escapism. Yeah, and so you are
literally jumping timelines like you are going your deep diving. Yeah.
Is it true that Pride and Prejudice is one of
those books for you?
Speaker 6 (40:00):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (40:00):
Yeah, Pride and Prejudice is like I read it during
a period of time in my life that was really rough.
I read it right after that breakup that I wrote
about where I just felt very like not a part
of the living world, you know, when you're so heartbroken
and you sort of just feel like.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
You're fuzzy, like your feet aren't touching the ground. It
almost felt like I was.
Speaker 7 (40:29):
Living life kind of like down a hallway a little bit,
and like the world was like this door that was
open down here, and I could hear it, and I
could see it, and I could smell it, but I
couldn't like get to it. And there was something about
reading that book that felt both so other than anything
(40:52):
I ever had or would experience, obviously, and yet so
relatable on so many levels that it brought me back
to life a little bit.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
It's very cool. I saw online a few weeks ago
somebody say that if you really want to become a
great reader. Read your favorite author's favorite authors, And I thought,
oh my god, duh, why haven't I thought about that?
Speaker 5 (41:20):
That's so good. That's so good.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
So I'm curious. I know you mentioned David Sedaris at
the beginning, but I am curious, as an author, what
are you reading that has changed the way you approach
your own artistic practice, whether it's your writing, you're acting, like,
what books have really shaped you?
Speaker 7 (41:41):
M I love Sadaris, I love Eve Babbitt's I really
love Stephanie Dandler's writing. She wrote Sweet Bitter, she wrote Stray.
I remember talking to her about writing and how I
was like, I just I don't really know what my
(42:01):
way in is and she was like, it can be
whatever you want it to be. And I was like,
but aren't the rules And she was like, there are
no rules, like they are what you make them. And
reading her writing with that in mind felt very freeing
in the way that like reading Babbits, reading Sedaris felt
(42:27):
I wouldn't even deign to emulate him. But John Boyne
is I just finished his latest book, The Elements. He
wrote like one of my favorite books of all time,
with the Hearts in Visible theories, and he just has
this ability to like just rip your heart out of
your chest in the most exquisite, beautiful way. And the
(42:52):
characters that he writes are just so like fully formed,
so three dimensionals, so deeply human in this way that I.
Speaker 5 (43:03):
Was literally on the plane finishing his book.
Speaker 7 (43:05):
The other day and I was just like, oh my God,
like out loud at one of his sentences.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
I was just like, how do you do that?
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Are you and your husband the type of people that
are on vacation reading in silence together or do you?
Are you like you're reading alone in your every day
and vacation is where you know you'll do something else.
Speaker 5 (43:26):
Oh no, I'm reading on vacation too, Like I love
a beat read.
Speaker 7 (43:31):
He he is a reader, but I'm very much a
shoot from the hip, like.
Speaker 5 (43:36):
Consume it as quickly as I can person. And he's
a real ruminator.
Speaker 7 (43:44):
He'll often read books very slowly because he really wants
to make sure he's like metabolizing.
Speaker 5 (43:50):
What he's taking in. And that's just not That's not
how I roll me neither.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
I have a shoot from the hip quest. I try
and ask like one unhinged question every episode. My unhinged
question for you is that I reading your work found
out that you were a horse girl. Yeah, and within
the horse girl canon, which is now vast on Instagram,
on TikTok in the book world, who are your favorite
(44:20):
books or characters?
Speaker 5 (44:22):
Mmmmm, oh my god, that's so hard.
Speaker 7 (44:26):
Obviously, I was like obsessed with Black Beauty when I
was little.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
I read all of the Saddle Club books growing up.
Speaker 7 (44:36):
I wouldn't necessarily recommend those to readers now unless you
have a small child. Yeah, they're not like great literature,
but I loved them. Oh, there's an amazing book that
I think is both a horse girl book and also
(44:59):
just like a a human and specifically woman book, like
just like what it is to be alive and be
a woman, or be a human and have a hard
time with the living, breathing world.
Speaker 5 (45:12):
It's called The Year of.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
The Horse by this I've heard of this, Courtney.
Speaker 5 (45:17):
Mom, and it's exceptional.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
It's I've heard of this. A lot of people love
this book.
Speaker 7 (45:24):
It's really really beautiful. I highly recommend it.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Thank you for that. Speaking of living breathing hard time,
you said that show business is like a toxic boyfriend,
And yeah, I think for a lot of people being
an artist and making a living. Being an artist feels
like such a dream. And you are an artist, you
are married to an artist, you are from a big
(45:50):
family of artists, and you're breathing so heavily as I'm
asking this question. So what I am true curious about
from your perspective is what makes you? What makes you
breathe heavily? Why? Why is it like a toxic boyfriend?
What do we not understand?
Speaker 7 (46:11):
So I equated recently being an artist specifically. I mean,
I think being an artist period, but I think being
an artist in Hollywood.
Speaker 5 (46:23):
Also right to having an illness that you're born with, Like.
Speaker 7 (46:35):
It's it's not something that you chose, and it's not
something that.
Speaker 5 (46:41):
You can get rid of. So your life.
Speaker 7 (46:47):
Becomes about figuring out how to manage it as like
comfortably as possible. And there are times when that's easier
in times when that's harder.
Speaker 5 (47:01):
But I think there is never.
Speaker 7 (47:08):
Another walk of life. I mean, I guess maybe there is.
I'm open to debate on this, but I don't think
that there exists another walk of life where the necessity
to give all of yourself is so closely in relationship
(47:30):
with the potential for like true and utter rejection, and
also so much bs like being an artist is such
a romantic endeavor and the business of art is so
(47:59):
without romance, And those two things are constantly in conflict
with one another.
Speaker 5 (48:07):
And it is a very.
Speaker 7 (48:11):
Challenging existence because you are basically like living a dichotomy.
It's like those things that people have on their desks
with the balls, you know, It's like you pull one
ball and it hits the balls and the other ball.
It's like there's this constant push pull of yes, like
(48:32):
where is my boundary? Where do my morals lie?
Speaker 6 (48:35):
Like?
Speaker 7 (48:35):
What am I willing to do to create art? Do
I even like creating art anymore? If this is what
I have to do to create it, yes, I love it.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
But wait, what is that? What is it?
Speaker 7 (48:46):
You know? It's just like and I think the goalpost
is constantly moving, the rules are constantly changing or just
sort of don't exist. And it's a very complicated existence
that I think people see as a very straightforward one.
(49:07):
It's not an easy life. I would never choose another
one ever. I would do it again ten thousand times.
But it shows you, it shows it shows me, and
it comes the highs will never be higher, and the
lows are like.
Speaker 5 (49:30):
Devastating, they are bone.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Crushing because it's personal.
Speaker 7 (49:36):
It's so personal, and it's so It's also like, I
think something that people who aren't artists don't necessarily understand.
I'm sure conceptually they do, but like on a cellular level,
is that part of.
Speaker 5 (49:51):
Being an artist.
Speaker 7 (49:54):
Requires an audience, and so like there's this compulsion, there's.
Speaker 5 (50:04):
This like need.
Speaker 7 (50:05):
I think that we feel as artists to express and
share of our art, which we can do.
Speaker 5 (50:12):
But the back half of.
Speaker 7 (50:17):
That holistic experience involves people consuming what we've created. And
so I think the hardest part and part of why
so many artists are so lonely is because without success,
which is part of the reason I was like all
day long, I'd push that button.
Speaker 5 (50:35):
It's like.
Speaker 7 (50:38):
The circle of being an artist isn't closed. If you're
creating your art in a vacuum and no one is
hiring you, listening to your music, reading your books, looking
at your paintings, watching you dance, whatever form of art
you're expressing, if someone isn't consuming it, it sort of
doesn't feel whole. And I think that's the part that
(51:02):
is so hard and is so heartbreaking and makes this
life a really challenging one.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
I think that was one of the best explanations I've heard.
I loved when you said that it is making artists
full of romance in the business is so without romance.
I think that cuts to the core of it. The
title of your book is a questions does this make
me funny? Question? Mark? And I love the epilogue of
(51:29):
your book. It sort of shares that it's like your
attempt to answer that question. In my opinion, no, does
that not resonate?
Speaker 7 (51:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (51:39):
No, no, for sure, what is the question that you're
hoping readers walk away asking themselves.
Speaker 5 (51:48):
Oh, that's like a question.
Speaker 7 (51:50):
So you mentioned talking in therapy, so I'm assuming do
you know what it's like to be in therapy? And
sometimes I don't know if you've experienced this, but sometimes
I find the most powerful sessions are often the ones
where you go in and you're like, I don't really
(52:10):
have anything to talk about today, like maybe I don't
really want to do that, I don't have it, I'm fine,
this week was actually good. And I feel like sometimes
those are the ones where you uncover something and you're like,
oh my god, and.
Speaker 5 (52:29):
I think I have consumed.
Speaker 7 (52:35):
Things before where I went in with like no expectations
or no real idea that they would evoke anything like
particular in me, and they have somehow like.
Speaker 5 (52:52):
Lit a match on.
Speaker 7 (52:53):
Something and a flame is ignited, and I'm like, oh,
my goodness, I didn't even realize I needed to look
at that, or I needed to think about that, or.
Speaker 5 (53:02):
I felt that way.
Speaker 7 (53:04):
I hope that in the same way, if this makes sense,
readers walk away from this book with the question that
most needs asking.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
I really like that because everybody's going to take something
different from it. It's interesting to me, Zasha that your
books like it really shares a lot of pain. But
talking to you today, you're a very hopeful person.
Speaker 7 (53:32):
That's not that's thank you for saying that. That makes
me feel good. I think because I've had a lot
of trauma and I've experienced a lot of pain in
my life, I always try to kind of look at
those experiences under the microscope and be like, Okay, well,
like I guess to sound a little woo woo, it's like,
(53:52):
what what.
Speaker 5 (53:53):
Was that here to teach me?
Speaker 6 (53:55):
Like?
Speaker 5 (53:55):
What can I take from that?
Speaker 7 (53:56):
How can I how can I make that pain and
trauma not pointless, because otherwise it's just too sad.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
I was at one point when I was in a
sad place in my life, someone said to me, huh,
don't waste your suffering.
Speaker 5 (54:17):
Oh oh my god. That just gave me goose bumps.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Yes, yeah, and it's that right. Yeah, like you're cracked
open at this moment. What can you take from it?
Speaker 5 (54:30):
Mmmm?
Speaker 1 (54:31):
So yeah, I feel I think that was resonant in
your book. You have not wasted one bit of suffering.
Speaker 5 (54:40):
I'm happy you think that. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Okay. The last thing is called speed read, and we're
gonna see how many rapid fire literary questions you can
get through. I feel like you're gonna be really good
at this game.
Speaker 5 (54:51):
Oh my god, no, I'm scared.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
Now you're gonna be great. Okay, okay.
Speaker 7 (54:58):
Three?
Speaker 6 (54:58):
Two?
Speaker 1 (54:59):
What's one literary trope you would ban forever?
Speaker 5 (55:03):
Oh my god? And enemies to lovers?
Speaker 1 (55:08):
What's one that you'll defend with your life?
Speaker 5 (55:10):
Ooh, the hero's journey?
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Yes, that's so you just a kid with a dream. Okay.
What's at the top of your TVR pile?
Speaker 5 (55:18):
Uh?
Speaker 7 (55:18):
A brand new thriller called End of Story? Because I
need something quick and fun.
Speaker 1 (55:24):
What's at the top of show She's tbr pile.
Speaker 5 (55:26):
Oh my god, that's such a good question. What's the
latest book that Gwyneth Paltrow wrote?
Speaker 1 (55:34):
Oh, whichever one?
Speaker 5 (55:35):
Whichever one?
Speaker 1 (55:36):
That is great. Call. What's your favorite messy woman, complicated
girl character.
Speaker 5 (55:42):
Whoa like in literature? Yeah, She's come undone.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
A book you'd love to adapt for the screen.
Speaker 7 (55:51):
Oh, oh my god, that one's so tough. I mean
probably Sex and Rage by Eve Babbitts.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
What's the first book you stayed up all night to finish?
Speaker 5 (56:03):
I think a Little Princess.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
And lastly, what's the book that you gift most often?
Speaker 7 (56:09):
Ooh, potentially one of John Boyne's books. Probably Heard Some
Visible Furies. I also gift Dave Egger's Heroes of the
Frontier a lot, which is another one of my favorites.
Speaker 5 (56:25):
I probably gift Eve Babbitts a lot.
Speaker 7 (56:28):
And then I also love to give John Darien's Sticker
Book to people because it's like, it's like Stickers but
adult version.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
I haven't heard of that. That's so cute.
Speaker 5 (56:38):
Oh it's really great.
Speaker 1 (56:41):
Okay, thank you for that, Sasha, You are truly a
joy to talk to. Thank you for your time.
Speaker 5 (56:46):
Thank you, this was so fun.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Okay, friends, before we wrap today's episode, I'm bringing back
our monthly comfort segment from Cotton, called the book Nook.
It's where we explore the rituals that make reading feel
just right. And as you know, Cotton is at the
heart of so many of life's everyday comforts. Whether that's
(57:11):
your favorite cozy sweater, a worn and scarf, or the
sheets you just slip into after a long day. Cotton
helps us feel grounded and at ease, which makes it
the perfect companion for a good book wherever you read it.
So let's hear from another book Mark listener sharing their
ideal reading setup.
Speaker 5 (57:30):
Hi.
Speaker 6 (57:31):
My name is Sarah and I'm from Dallas, Texas, and
my ideal reading setup is on a patio at my
favorite coffee shop. I like being outside in good weather,
maybe the early morning. I don't wake up early often,
but when I do, it just feels so peaceful. Probably
(57:51):
getting an iced oat cappuccino, maybe a little pastry. And
while I'm being transported to this world through my book,
I can also kind of take breaks and people watch
and get a sense of my fellow coffee shop folk.
Speaker 1 (58:12):
Sarah, I love this. There's something so special about those
rare quiet mornings, you know, the light just starting to shift,
the first sip of coffee, a book in hand. I
can picture you wrapped up in a soft cotton cardigan,
feeling that gentle breeze as the world wakes up around you.
And I love how your ritual balances escape and connection.
You're in another world through your story, but still part
(58:34):
of the hum of the city. It's such a perfect
example of how comfort can be both cozy and alive,
grounded in the simple textures of everyday life. So, my friends,
keep your ideal reading setups coming. What are you wearing?
What's around you? Are you reading by sunlight or lamplight,
under a cotton throw or your coziest fall sweater. Take
(58:55):
me right into your perfect reading ritual. Leave me a
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or tell me this Where do you get lost in
a book? What textures surround you? Soft sheets, a cozy throw,
maybe your favorite cotton hoodie. Send your story to bookmarked
at Reese's book Club dot com. And thanks to Cotton
(59:16):
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comfort and style can go hand in hand. Don't forget
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on Instagram, serving up books, vibes and behind the scenes
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(01:00:01):
Share your literary hot takes, your book recommendations, oh please
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in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of Hello
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and me Danielle Robe. Production is by ACAST Creative Studios.
Our producers are Matty Foley, Brittany Martinez, and Sarah Schleid.
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(01:00:46):
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Bookmarked by Reese's book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi,
I'm Danielle Robe and welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's book Club.
We have two great conversations this week, so in a
bit we're talking with Zasha Mammott, author and actor best
known for I Mean, Let's be honest, fan fave Girl's
character Shoshana Shapiro.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I love you so much, like the Ends of the
World in back so much. But sometimes I love you
the way that like I feel sorry for a monkey,
Like they're just they need so much help and they're
in such an ugly cage.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
But first, it's the first Tuesday of the month, so
you know what that means. It's time to introduce the
latest Reese's book Club pick, Reese Queen, take it away.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Happy holidays all you readers out there. Okay, I'm really
excited about the book club pick in December. It is
called The Air Appearance by Rebecca Armitage. It's full of
family drama, royal intrigue, and one woman deciding what she
wants her future to be. It's got incredibly high stakes
and an amazing love triangle in it.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I think you're going to love it.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It's the perfect book to cozy up with this month,
so please enjoy The Air Apparent by Rebecca Armitage.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Congratulations to Rebecca. There's so much that sounds enticing about
this month's read, but what really hooked me, guys, is
the real life parallels between Rebecca's fictional royal family and
the actual royals. She's a journalist who spent a lot
of her career covering the British monarchy, so she knows
her stuff. And before we dive into the Air Apparent
(01:35):
this month, it wouldn't be Reese's Book Club if we
couldn't give you a little behind the scenes scoop straight
from the author herself. Rebecca, Welcome to the club.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Thank you so much. It is the owner of my life.
I can't believe it.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Oh, it's so cool. And December twod is your pub day,
your very first one? Cue the confetti.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Woo.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
How are you celebrating Champagne both? What's happening?
Speaker 4 (02:01):
I think there's going to be a croissant breakfast, and
then I'm going to go to some bookstores and offer
to sign their copies, and then we're going to have
a launch party, and there's going to be sparkling wine.
And my father in law used to have a vineyards,
so we'll be cracking into his back catalog.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Okay, this is fabulous and so well planned out. Yeah,
of course, Okay. Something I really love about a Reese's
Book Club pick is that it is a total surprise
until it's released with that sticker on the cover. I
have to know who you called first. Who was the
first person you told about being a Reesa's Book Club pick?
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I told my husband in a sort of wordless, weird way,
because I got an email quite early in the morning
from my American publisher, Reagan Artha, and it was a
congratulations Reese Witherspooners picked your book. And I thought, no, no,
I'm hallucinating.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
That's not right.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
I've misread that email and it took I think I've
read it about five times, and I was like, no,
I must be wrong. I need an opinion. So I
went into my husband's office at home and just wordlessly
handed him the phone and he said, oh my god,
You've been chosen for Reese's Book Club. And until he
said that, I fully did not believe it.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
This is your first novel and you spent years telling
other people's stories as a journalist. Was there a passage
or a scene where you thought, this is it, this
is why I write.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Yes, it's going to sound kind of ghoulish, but there
isn't avalanche scene fairly early in the book, and at
that point I really did not have confidence that I
was going to be able to do this, Like every
day was really hard. But I got to that avalanche
scene and I'd done all this research, wats so many
YouTube clips of avalanches, And by the time I finished
(03:41):
that scene, I thought, I really like what I've just written.
I don't know if I'm going to finish this book,
but I feel really proud of this passage and it
just gave me enough boost to keep going.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And your social media rollout for this book is so good.
I saw that you posted a mood board sort of
like a montage on Instagram. So can you get a
little taste. If you're a fan of Blink, you'll love
this book.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
Yes, I would love to.
Speaker 6 (04:06):
So.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I think if you liked The Crown, you will like this.
If you liked Succession, there's a dash of succession in there.
If you like Taylor Jenkins read, I think you'll like
this book and there's just a tiny little sprinkling which
is everyone, and there's just the tiniest little dash of
the Princess Diaries as well. So that might sound like
(04:26):
a weird combination, but I promise it all makes sense
once you've devoured it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So, Rebecca, I love every book club, but in your
average book club, you don't get to chat with the
author before you dive into the book. So I have
you here, I'm about to dive in. What should I
keep in mind? What should we keep in mind as
we read along.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I want to know if you like Lexi because she's
a little bit complicated. You know, she's not the perfect heroine,
She's got some flaws, So I want to know if
you like her. Do they think Lexi made the right choice?
Because I've heard from people who you were really happy
with the ending, and I've heard from people who wish
she had done the opposite. So ask yourself what you
(05:06):
hope will happen, and then see how you feel at
the end. And I want to know what you think
about Inherited Power at the end. I think that's probably
the thorniest question, is did it change your view or
make you think differently about what happens when people are
given power instead of earning it.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Or taking it exactly. Yes, well, this is a very
royal book, so I have some fun royal questions for you.
Who's your favorite royal to interview?
Speaker 4 (05:35):
I've never interviewed it royal because they rarely put themselves forward,
But my dream royal would be Princess Anne.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Who's the best dressed Royal?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
I really don't think anyone's topped Princess Diana. I think
she remains all time.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Oh my god, the cool nineties jeans and the cowboy
boots and the T shirts the coolest.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Who's the most underrated royal? Ah?
Speaker 4 (06:00):
I look, I actually think Queen Camilla is underrated because
I think she comes with a lot of baggage. But
I think she, by all accounts, is the most fun
person to hang out with. And I think she's done
so much interesting charity work. She does sexual violence, so
she's really picked interesting causes that I think have pushed
the boundary. So I think she's actually a really cool woman.
But because of the legacy of the Diana Child's love triangle,
(06:23):
she's often dismissed. But I think there's an interesting.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Character there who's a royal that you'd want to have
a drink with.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
I'm going to go with Harry. I think he would
be fun, and I think he'd have good gossip, and
he just seems like he knows how to party.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
What's a royal scandal that you secretly cannot stop reading about?
Speaker 4 (06:43):
You know, I really don't think we've ever got past
the Diana Charles Camilla years. Like I think that that
is now a modern day fairytale. Really, Like you think
about the way everyone has an opinion and everyone remembers that,
and it's it's just so complicated because you see everyone's
point of view, Like you feel for Diana, this young
(07:05):
young woman, and you feel for Child's who was kind
of pushed into a marriage he didn't want and did
it out of duty instead of love. I just think
it's the most complicated epic love story that's ever been told.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Rebecca. I'm so excited to dive in, and I can't
wait to ask you a million questions in a few
weeks when you come back.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Okay, it's your turn to jump in, so grab the
air Apparent and read or listen with us all month long.
I'm going to be reading along with you, So as
you go, email me voice memos with all of your thoughts,
your questions, your hot takes. I particularly want to know
who you think the fictional characters are based on, So
send me a voice memo or an email at bookmark
(07:50):
at Reese's book club dot com, and at month's end
we'll sit down with Rebecca again and dig into all
the juicy details. Okay, we're gonna switch gears from put
together princess vibes to the messy woman genre. You know,
the kind of complex, flawed female characters who are navigating
(08:13):
chaotic lives and kind of making some terrible choices along
the way. Well, I'm thinking about Amy Dunn in Gone
Girl or the anonymous twenty something in My Year of
Rest and Relaxation. You kind of love them for their rebellion, right,
but you're also kind of screaming at them through the pages.
But what if the messy arc was part of our
own story? It definitely was for me, and I think
(08:35):
if you've been a twenty something in this world, it
probably was for you too. And Zasha Mammott's new collection
of essays Does This Make Me Funny? Might be a
new nonfiction addition to the messy woman canon, the essays
are super raw and vulnerable, taking us into bad relationships,
bad parties, body issues, awkward auditions, and creating her most
(08:58):
famous character, Shoshana from Girls and Sasha doesn't pull many punches.
It's endearing. She knows that you'll be screaming at her
younger self through the pages, and she even opens the
book acknowledging her NEPO baby status. So if you're looking
for a conversation that hits some girls nostalgia and takes
you to vulnerable, creative places with a side of literary lusciousness,
(09:22):
you're in the right place. Let's turn the page with
Zasha Mammott. Sasha, welcome to the club.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
to be here.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Your head was bobbing like it was a real club.
I was into it.
Speaker 7 (09:37):
I think I'm feeling the moves because I went to
like an aerobic dance class this morning where it felt
like I was in the club, and now it just
feels like I can't walk upstairs without crying.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
Because my like's hurt so much. Yeah, it's like that
specific area between where you're b and you're like the what.
Speaker 7 (10:02):
Is that your hamstrings? I guess meet when you like
do a workout that makes you remember that exists, you like,
you're like ooh oh no, oh no.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Well neither one of us understand science apparently. So I'm
so happy we're doing a book club podcast today. Yes,
I feel like we really have a lot to talk about.
I think our readers, including me, hold so much affection
for your characters. Showshanna included on Girls, and I opened
your book and I was thinking, Okay, this is an
(10:34):
essay collection, and you're kind of living out the dream
of Lena Dunham's character Hannah on the show. I kept thinking, like,
I am the voice of a generation? Does this book
make you the voice of our generation?
Speaker 7 (10:48):
Oh? My god? I mean I would never deign to
like give myself that Moniker, but I think it's just like,
you know, I'm the voice of like maybe a very
specific brand of like anxious millennial girl with specific childhood trauma.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
So you grew up in this very big theater family
and you just shared your first nonfiction book. This is
also in the essay realm. You've had a column for Glamour.
Nonfiction really pulls you in It seems did you pull
(11:32):
inspiration from anyone specifically?
Speaker 7 (11:35):
Even Babbitt's was a really big influence on me.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
What did you want to emulate about her?
Speaker 7 (11:42):
I really love that she has this ability to write
about herself in a way that never feels.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Arrogant or self centered, and she is able to.
Speaker 7 (12:00):
Just break your heart and make you laugh within the
same paragraph. And she always, to me, just feels like
she's just talking to you, Like her stories just read
to me like you're hanging out with a good friend.
I feel very similarly about David Sedaris, like there's just
(12:21):
something that's so unabashed about the way that they both write,
and I think they walk this really fine line of
oftentimes sharing these very dark things about themselves but never
making it feel like too much. I've just always really
admired that and been grateful for that, because their writing
(12:45):
feels so honest, but it doesn't feel like I don't
know what better adjective to you is other than abusive.
Like you know, sometimes you read someone's story and you're
just like, I don't even know how to metabolize this
because it's so oh, it's so much, and I knew
I didn't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
That's interesting because how do you, as a writer avoid that?
Because I think you did avoid that, and you share
some things that I think could fall into the realm
of feeling really hard to metabolize. There's definitely trauma with
a capital T in there, not a lower casey. How
(13:30):
did you avoid that?
Speaker 7 (13:34):
I really just tried to tell a story, like something
that was very much a driving force for me when
writing this book.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
When I started to feel.
Speaker 7 (13:46):
Unworthy or overwhelmed by how intimate I was getting, I
steal this thing from my husband. Whenever people ask him
like why he is an actor, He's like, well, the
whole reason that we are storytellers, that like storytelling exists
is to help people feel less alone.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
I would just think about telling.
Speaker 7 (14:09):
It in a way that would maybe help someone feel
seen or give them something to like latch onto. Anytime
it got too dark, I was like, oh, well, that
won't be helpful. I don't think that will be helpful
for someone. I don't think that that will be like additive.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
I like having a prism or a structure or a
lens whenever I dive into a project, and so I
can like ask myself questions based on does this serve,
x Y and Z. It sounds like you did that.
Would you ever dive into fiction?
Speaker 5 (14:44):
I don't know. Fiction is hard.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
It seems so hard.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
It seems so hard.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
It's how we don't know how authors like plot it
all out.
Speaker 7 (14:55):
I don't know how they do it. I just read
Reese and Harlan's book. I devoured it. I read it
in like a day and a half, and I just
I love to read thrillers, especially when I'm working, because
I need something that's really going to pull me in
because my brain's so overwhelmed by words to begin with.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
But I'm always just like, how how did you do?
How did you do that?
Speaker 7 (15:22):
Like it's just it's so crazy to me the way, specifically,
like thriller writers will weave these stories and these twists
and these crazy pop points. I don't know if my
brain has the ability to do that.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I feel the same way. I also devoured the book.
I was so mad. I started kind of late at
like nine or ten PM, and I ended up did
the same album until two am. And yeah, then I
interviewed Harlan and Reese, and Harlan was like, yeah, that's
that's what we were going for yeah, totally.
Speaker 5 (15:53):
I couldn't put it down. I was just like, I
have to know.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
So you open up in your book book with a
rundown of your family tree, and I knew that you
had an artistic family. I did not realize that you
stood on artistic legacy the way you did, both from
your mom and your dad. What was the decision to
open with the nepo baby confession, especially when that's such
(16:18):
a hot button term nowadays.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
It was actually my husband's idea.
Speaker 7 (16:24):
I was sort of anxiety dumping to him one night
about all of my fears about the book and what
the reception might be and what people might say, and
he was like, well, what if you just beat them
to the punch, Like what if you just say it
first and then you kind of control the narrative to
a certain extent.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
And I was like, yeah, a really good idea. I'm
gonna tape that one.
Speaker 7 (16:48):
And I liked the idea that, yeah, if I put
it out on the table, like if I literally started
the book with it, then I was kind of like
calling myself out first.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
When I read it, I thought, oh, this is interesting
because the term nepo baby, we all look at it
and think, Oh, these people have so much privilege, and
yet you made it clear that it comes with a
whole other set of pain and problems that we probably
(17:22):
don't understand. You wrote something that really hit me. You
said sometimes you felt like you were left on the
doorstep as a baby. What did you mean by that?
Speaker 7 (17:31):
It's funny, It's like I come from these artists, and
I obviously feel a kinship to them in that way,
but I just sort of always felt like an outsider.
Like even within my family, I just always sort of
felt like like I just didn't really fit, and so
(17:57):
I just often wondered if I was like the milkman's
child or something.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
There was like this through line of really deep seated
loneliness in your book.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 7 (18:10):
I think that feeling of otherness was this thing that
just that I've had, like since I can remember. I
do come from this sort of intense family of very
specific humans with you know, specific large personalities. I was
(18:30):
very much the one as a kid who was like
I wasn't like getting in there. The first time my
husband came to dinner at my dad's house, he was like,
it's like the Hunger Games of wit. It's like you,
it's it's the dinner table is literally and I was like, yeah,
it's always been like that. But but I'm I've never
(18:52):
been someone who wants to like get in the ring.
I'm always just kind of sitting back and observing. And
so I think, yeah, that kind of permeated a lot
of my upbringing, and it's one of the reasons that
I was so obsessed with reading, because books were really
some of my best friends. They were like those characters,
(19:15):
those authors, those words were they were the things that
I interacted with the most.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I had a light bulb go off when I read
your book, because in a similar and different way, I
have felt deep seated loneliness growing up, and there would
be no reason for it, Like I didn't grow up
with artists who lived interior lives. You could never pinpoint why.
(19:47):
I just had always felt it. And one time I
was talking to a therapist and I was thinking about
breaking up with someone, and she said, well, what's the fear,
And I said, well, I'll be alone. I'll be in
my bed staring at the ceiling with the lights off,
just so alone. And the therapist was sort of a
(20:09):
witch in a good way, and she goes, huh. That's
so interesting because you have dedicated your entire career to connection,
which is the opposite of loneliness. And you said you
felt belonging when you started working, and I was like,
oh wow. And I'll be honest when I went into
(20:31):
your book because you're so funny, thinking I was going
to laugh, and I did. There were parts that were
very funny, but my heart really hurt for the little
version of you. Do you feel like the people that
have read this book so far have connected with that
feeling of loneliness? Is there a chapter or a moment
(20:53):
that is being reflected back to you?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Not necessarily.
Speaker 7 (21:01):
That's so interesting that your therapist said that to you,
And it's fascinating right because it's like, I think the
same goes for acting or directing. This need to find
connection and community and to like meet on this very
specific playing field of art and like how close that
(21:25):
can make you feel to someone so quickly. I don't
think that there's necessarily one chapter in particular that people
are like that that one, but I think it was
something that was important for me to imbue the book
with because it was such an overarching experience for so
(21:46):
much of my life, and like even when I started working,
it still kind of followed me, like Lena when we
first started shooting Season one, because I wasn't like particularularly
close with my family in the way that like everyone
else was, and I moved to New York by myself,
and I didn't have a good high school experience, so
(22:09):
I didn't have like super close high school friends, like
I didn't really have a support system. She used to
call me Pippy long Stocking when I would tell them
stories about my childhood. She like, it's like you raised yourself,
It's like you were a forest child.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
And I was like, I mean not know. And so
I think as I started to.
Speaker 7 (22:36):
Hunt down that support system, I was so to your
point of like being afraid to break up with someone.
It's like when you experience true, true loneliness and then
you come across someone or something that could potentially quell that,
you're almost like afraid to touch it because you're like,
(22:58):
but if I touch it and then it goes away,
what will I do? I will cease to exist. And
it almost feels easier to just be like I'm just
not going to touch it, Like I just don't want
to know how good it feels on the other side.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Absolutely, that's so well said.
Speaker 7 (23:18):
I really just wanted to try to express that as
like intimately as I could in the book, to also
be like, you're not alone in feeling alone and that loneliness.
There is an antidote to it. You just have to
trust that there is, and you have to find it
(23:40):
or be open to it finding you.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Do you feel like you do not feel as lonely anymore?
Speaker 5 (23:48):
Yeah? Very much. Not so. I mean, my husband was
like a heap was a huge part of that. When
I realized I was in love with him.
Speaker 7 (23:59):
I remember day it happened, and we were doing this
play together and it was a Saturday, so we had
a matinee and a night show and we would like
go take a nap in between. I remember we were
laying in my bed in my first apartment in New
York and I suddenly was like, oh no, I'm in
love with him. And I started hysterically crying, and he
was like, what is wrong?
Speaker 5 (24:19):
What is wrong with you? It's like a said lovely
Saturday afternoon.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
But it was because I realized once I said those
words out loud, I couldn't take them back, and once
I admitted that, I was like, that makes me so
vulnerable because what.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
If he leaves?
Speaker 7 (24:40):
Yeah, And I think it took me a very long
time to trust that he wasn't going to leave, and
I started to trust that it was it was okay.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
But I don't know. Have you watched.
Speaker 7 (24:58):
Platonic, that show with Rose Byrne and Seth Rogen. It's great,
it's so funny, but there's this there's this running joke
in the latest season with one of the other characters
as this podcast, and her tagline is don't ask, don't get,
which I think is it sounds kind of silly at first,
(25:18):
but it's so true. It's like, don't ask, don't get.
That was a big learning curve for me. I was like, oh, yeah,
if you are sort of like in a corner just observing,
being quiet, people maybe don't know that you need help,
or that you're sad, or you're lonely, or you're looking
for connection. So you have to ask for it and
(25:39):
then then you like open up the doors to getting it.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
But if you don't ask for it, you can't get it.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Every week I ask our guests what they've bookmarked, so
it can be a song, a quote, a poem, something
that you texted your friend, something that you saved on Instagram. Zasha,
have you bookmarked this week?
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Oh my god? Wait, actually, hold on.
Speaker 7 (26:06):
I was having lunch right before this with my manager
and we were you know how people tag stuff on
the streets, like the sidewalks of New York all the time.
We were walking back from lunch and she stopped and
like grabbed my arm and pointed down to the sidewalk
and I took a photo of it, and it just
(26:29):
says someone in chalk wrote still a kid with dreams.
And I was like, I love that so much because
it's true, true, And I thought that was a really good.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
Reminder.
Speaker 7 (26:48):
I thought that was a really good reminder to be like, Yeah,
I mean, I feel like often at the end of
the day, we're all just still kids with dreams.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
At the end of the book, you write. Having written
a book is great, but the writing itself is torture,
which I think is funny. I want a window into
your process here. When you start these essays, do you
start with a specific feeling or a specific scene or moment,
like what's the seed for you?
Speaker 5 (27:19):
It depends.
Speaker 7 (27:20):
At times, it was a feeling like this very specific
sensation that I wanted to try to convey.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
And then there were other ones that there were.
Speaker 7 (27:34):
Memories or stories that came to me, but I was like,
that's the scene that will start it. Like the one
I wrote about that really horrible relationship that I had.
I had like a flashback of the headboard with the
bullet hole in it, and I was like, Yeah, that's
it's got to start somewhere.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Around there draws people in so quickly.
Speaker 7 (27:56):
Oftentimes there are just these very very specific, like divots
in a memory that I think are either like the
most joyous, the most traumatic, the most potent, And I
just think that often a story wants to be told
(28:19):
from that jumping off point. My dad used to say
this thing to me all the time growing up, when
we would watch movies together, you have to burn the
first reel.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
I forget how long reel.
Speaker 7 (28:30):
Is, but I think it's like five minutes maybe, And
he was always like, go back and watch the first
five to ten minutes of that movie.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
You don't need it start a scene already in it.
Speaker 7 (28:44):
Naturally, when we go to tell stories, we'll often circle
back to something from the beginning, but we'll start a
little down the road like organically, because that's often the
point where things start to get juicy, and that was
just where the stories wanted to start from a lot
(29:05):
of the time in my brain.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
That's such a great writing tip. Thank you for sharing
that with us. For sure, I'm wondering how you're trusting
your memories because some of these stories involve other people.
Are you calling them and asking them how they remember
things because some of these are from a while ago?
Speaker 5 (29:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (29:27):
No, For the most part, I wrote about people I
didn't like particularly, so I wouldn't say we have like
a great continuing relationship, so I didn't call to check
in with them, so good Like.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
People ask me a lot if I kept journals.
Speaker 7 (29:50):
Because the stories are oftentimes from a very long time ago.
But I think I realized when I I was writing
a lot of these essays that many of these experiences
were like pretty deeply traumatic ones or just formatively upsetting.
(30:12):
I guess they were like kind of fossilized in my brain.
And I think it's because I really put them away
after they happened.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
Like, what is the thing they say about memory?
Speaker 7 (30:24):
Every time you remember, you remember the memory of the memory.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
So the more you.
Speaker 7 (30:29):
Remember something it continues to dilute in your mind because
it becomes like that far removed from itself. And I
think I really had not remembered these things very much
throughout my life because I didn't want.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
To carry them.
Speaker 7 (30:48):
Yeah, and then they kind of were like mummified almost,
So they felt very potent and very vivid in my mind.
And I made sure when I was writing to create
caveats around things or moments within the stories I was
telling that got murky. I would try to say, like,
(31:11):
this part isn't as clear to me, or like I
don't remember this specific moment, but I remember before and after.
I tried to like out myself as a potentially unreliable narrator.
But yeah, everything felt very clear and colorful to me.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
I kind of love that you don't tie everything up
in this neat bow either, Like you do share what
you've learned, and you're healing and you're evolving, but you're
very clear eyed and honest about it all, and you
say that it's still hard. So I closed your book
and I thought, Okay, is this messy woman or is
(31:56):
this complicated girl? And I landed on this is complicated
girl more so, so tell me if you think I'm
right or wrong on that. But my question to you
is that I think writers, and I'm learning this more
and more to be true from this podcast, is that
writers often write books or characters or themes that they'd
(32:19):
wish they'd had in early iterations of themselves. Did you
write this collection or an essay, even in particular for
young Zasha.
Speaker 7 (32:31):
That's really interesting. I hadn't actually thought about that. That
makes a lot of sense. I'm sure my therapist would
have something to say about that. But I do think
so much of what I wrote that was like revealing
about things I had struggled with, or the dark parts
(32:53):
or the ugly parts of me.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
I wrote for.
Speaker 7 (32:59):
Maybe a iteration of who I was when I was struggling,
thinking like, if this book existed from someone else when
I was young, it would have helped this sound self
congratulatory and I don't mean it this way, but like
it would have helped.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
Me to hear something so.
Speaker 7 (33:24):
Revealing and raw yeah from someone else, and just to
literally be like, oh, wow, I'm not the only one
going through this.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Is there an essay that you would tell your eleven
year old self, like read this one first, or skip
this one.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
My god.
Speaker 7 (33:43):
I mean, I don't know if this book is appropriate
for eleven even year olds.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
That's fair, that's really fair.
Speaker 7 (33:51):
I don't know why this popped into my head the
other day, but I I was cooking dinner and I
had this memory of the first time I ever.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
Felt skinny.
Speaker 7 (34:08):
I was in a dressing room in Abercrombie and Fitch
trying on jeans, and I remember.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Needing so millennial.
Speaker 5 (34:18):
It's so millennial.
Speaker 7 (34:19):
I mean, I probably haven't been in one sense. I
was twelve, and I remember needing a smaller size and
I remember just feeling this like surge of relief and power.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
It was like it was like my whole body lit.
It's sort of like what falling in love felt like.
I was just like, oh my god, this feels it
was like a dopamine hit.
Speaker 7 (34:51):
And I just had this flash of that moment and
I hadn't thought about it in so long, and I
was thinking about how young I was, Like I meet
twelve year olds now and I'm just like, oh, my god.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
You were a child. And I think.
Speaker 7 (35:11):
If I had had someone who could talk to me
intelligently and from experience during that time period on the
level that I was at because I think a lot
of what I struggled with was like having a lot
of adults talk to me in like recovery language as
(35:32):
opposed to just like talking to me, and it just
felt like no one understood what I was going through.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
I wrote a chapter.
Speaker 7 (35:45):
About going on a road trip with my husband and
the lack of mirrors and how it literally felt.
Speaker 5 (35:52):
Like a detox. Maybe I would give eleven year old
me that chapter.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
We had Alison Williams on the podcast a few episodes ago,
and I was like, in real life, are you a
Marnie a show Sha?
Speaker 5 (36:13):
Hannah?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Who are you? And she was like, I feel like
I'm a Marnie Rising, which I thought was so funny.
So are you a showsh in real life?
Speaker 6 (36:27):
For you?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
So Arnie Rising? Hannah?
Speaker 5 (36:29):
Arnie? Am I a Arnie Rising?
Speaker 7 (36:31):
I mean I am kind of type A in many ways,
Like sometimes when I get on a cleaning kick, my
husband has to stop me and be like, don't throw
everything away in the drawer in my office, because some
of those things are actually important. I was talking to
one of my dearest childhood friends the other day who
(36:52):
I've been friends with since eighth grade, and we were
talking about this actually because she read the show essay.
She was like, it's so interesting to me that you
say you're so different from her.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
She's like, she's kind of eighth grade you.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Oh wow.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
And I was like wait what and she was like yeah,
you know, like think about yourself in eighth grade.
Speaker 7 (37:18):
And I really sat with that for a while because
I've been living with this narrative of like we are
intrinsic opposites. I sort of thought maybe that she was
like a past life version of me that was like
burned at the stake during the Salem witch Trials, Like
that's where my mind went.
Speaker 5 (37:37):
And she was like, no, she's just you in eighth grade.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
It's so much more regular, so.
Speaker 7 (37:44):
Much more regular. Obviously not not where I go. I
just have to make it more elaborate.
Speaker 5 (37:51):
Than that in my mind.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
But it's because you're a true writer.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Maybe maybe I am more of a show than I
think or thought. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I always love showsh, so I'm happy to hear that
you do, right too?
Speaker 5 (38:07):
You do? Yes, I mean I love her so much.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
That's so sweet. Yeah, you wrote that Zasha went offline
to make space for showsh to take over for that
period of time. I am really curious if you're open
to sharing what going offline meant, Like, how did you
make room for her? Did you feel like you actually
left yourself in a way for a little bit.
Speaker 5 (38:33):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 7 (38:36):
I've always sort of been that person that will stare
off into space, Like I just did this movie with
Annie Murphy, and she would sometimes I'd come to and
she would be like, where'd you go, Like like just
straight up in my She'd be like, what planet were
you on? I'm like, I actually have no idea, just
like the veil comes down and I don't know where
(38:57):
I go. Some iteration of that happened pretty much every
time I'm working, Like I go a little bit into
a fugue state and sort of come.
Speaker 5 (39:06):
To and they call cut because I think I don't know.
It's like.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
We're like wired as act or at least I am
to sort of like be as present as possible. So
it feels a little like jumping into a pool, and
that time between action and cut is like the moment
you're under the water before you emerge if you dive
off a high diving board. And I think with her,
(39:39):
it just felt like a more potent version of that.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
This makes so much sense because I read that you
like to read for escapism. Yeah, and so you are
literally jumping timelines like you are going your deep diving. Yeah.
Is it true that Pride and Prejudice is one of
those books for you?
Speaker 6 (40:00):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (40:00):
Yeah, Pride and Prejudice is like I read it during
a period of time in my life that was really rough.
I read it right after that breakup that I wrote
about where I just felt very like not a part
of the living world, you know, when you're so heartbroken
and you sort of just feel like.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
You're fuzzy, like your feet aren't touching the ground. It
almost felt like I was.
Speaker 7 (40:29):
Living life kind of like down a hallway a little bit,
and like the world was like this door that was
open down here, and I could hear it, and I
could see it, and I could smell it, but I
couldn't like get to it. And there was something about
reading that book that felt both so other than anything
(40:52):
I ever had or would experience, obviously, and yet so
relatable on so many levels that it brought me back
to life a little bit.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
It's very cool. I saw online a few weeks ago
somebody say that if you really want to become a
great reader. Read your favorite author's favorite authors, And I thought,
oh my god, duh, why haven't I thought about that?
Speaker 5 (41:20):
That's so good. That's so good.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
So I'm curious. I know you mentioned David Sedaris at
the beginning, but I am curious, as an author, what
are you reading that has changed the way you approach
your own artistic practice, whether it's your writing, you're acting, like,
what books have really shaped you?
Speaker 7 (41:41):
M I love Sadaris, I love Eve Babbitt's I really
love Stephanie Dandler's writing. She wrote Sweet Bitter, she wrote Stray.
I remember talking to her about writing and how I
was like, I just I don't really know what my
(42:01):
way in is and she was like, it can be
whatever you want it to be. And I was like,
but aren't the rules And she was like, there are
no rules, like they are what you make them. And
reading her writing with that in mind felt very freeing
in the way that like reading Babbits, reading Sedaris felt
(42:27):
I wouldn't even deign to emulate him. But John Boyne
is I just finished his latest book, The Elements. He
wrote like one of my favorite books of all time,
with the Hearts in Visible theories, and he just has
this ability to like just rip your heart out of
your chest in the most exquisite, beautiful way. And the
(42:52):
characters that he writes are just so like fully formed,
so three dimensionals, so deeply human in this way that I.
Speaker 5 (43:03):
Was literally on the plane finishing his book.
Speaker 7 (43:05):
The other day and I was just like, oh my God,
like out loud at one of his sentences.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
I was just like, how do you do that?
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Are you and your husband the type of people that
are on vacation reading in silence together or do you?
Are you like you're reading alone in your every day
and vacation is where you know you'll do something else.
Speaker 5 (43:26):
Oh no, I'm reading on vacation too, Like I love
a beat read.
Speaker 7 (43:31):
He he is a reader, but I'm very much a
shoot from the hip, like.
Speaker 5 (43:36):
Consume it as quickly as I can person. And he's
a real ruminator.
Speaker 7 (43:44):
He'll often read books very slowly because he really wants
to make sure he's like metabolizing.
Speaker 5 (43:50):
What he's taking in. And that's just not That's not
how I roll me neither.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
I have a shoot from the hip quest. I try
and ask like one unhinged question every episode. My unhinged
question for you is that I reading your work found
out that you were a horse girl. Yeah, and within
the horse girl canon, which is now vast on Instagram,
on TikTok in the book world, who are your favorite
(44:20):
books or characters?
Speaker 5 (44:22):
Mmmmm, oh my god, that's so hard.
Speaker 7 (44:26):
Obviously, I was like obsessed with Black Beauty when I
was little.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
I read all of the Saddle Club books growing up.
Speaker 7 (44:36):
I wouldn't necessarily recommend those to readers now unless you
have a small child. Yeah, they're not like great literature,
but I loved them. Oh, there's an amazing book that
I think is both a horse girl book and also
(44:59):
just like a a human and specifically woman book, like
just like what it is to be alive and be
a woman, or be a human and have a hard
time with the living, breathing world.
Speaker 5 (45:12):
It's called The Year of.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
The Horse by this I've heard of this, Courtney.
Speaker 5 (45:17):
Mom, and it's exceptional.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
It's I've heard of this. A lot of people love
this book.
Speaker 7 (45:24):
It's really really beautiful. I highly recommend it.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Thank you for that. Speaking of living breathing hard time,
you said that show business is like a toxic boyfriend,
And yeah, I think for a lot of people being
an artist and making a living. Being an artist feels
like such a dream. And you are an artist, you
are married to an artist, you are from a big
(45:50):
family of artists, and you're breathing so heavily as I'm
asking this question. So what I am true curious about
from your perspective is what makes you? What makes you
breathe heavily? Why? Why is it like a toxic boyfriend?
What do we not understand?
Speaker 7 (46:11):
So I equated recently being an artist specifically. I mean,
I think being an artist period, but I think being
an artist in Hollywood.
Speaker 5 (46:23):
Also right to having an illness that you're born with, Like.
Speaker 7 (46:35):
It's it's not something that you chose, and it's not
something that.
Speaker 5 (46:41):
You can get rid of. So your life.
Speaker 7 (46:47):
Becomes about figuring out how to manage it as like
comfortably as possible. And there are times when that's easier
in times when that's harder.
Speaker 5 (47:01):
But I think there is never.
Speaker 7 (47:08):
Another walk of life. I mean, I guess maybe there is.
I'm open to debate on this, but I don't think
that there exists another walk of life where the necessity
to give all of yourself is so closely in relationship
(47:30):
with the potential for like true and utter rejection, and
also so much bs like being an artist is such
a romantic endeavor and the business of art is so
(47:59):
without romance, And those two things are constantly in conflict
with one another.
Speaker 5 (48:07):
And it is a very.
Speaker 7 (48:11):
Challenging existence because you are basically like living a dichotomy.
It's like those things that people have on their desks
with the balls, you know, It's like you pull one
ball and it hits the balls and the other ball.
It's like there's this constant push pull of yes, like
(48:32):
where is my boundary? Where do my morals lie?
Speaker 6 (48:35):
Like?
Speaker 7 (48:35):
What am I willing to do to create art? Do
I even like creating art anymore? If this is what
I have to do to create it, yes, I love it.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
But wait, what is that? What is it?
Speaker 7 (48:46):
You know? It's just like and I think the goalpost
is constantly moving, the rules are constantly changing or just
sort of don't exist. And it's a very complicated existence
that I think people see as a very straightforward one.
(49:07):
It's not an easy life. I would never choose another
one ever. I would do it again ten thousand times.
But it shows you, it shows it shows me, and
it comes the highs will never be higher, and the
lows are like.
Speaker 5 (49:30):
Devastating, they are bone.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Crushing because it's personal.
Speaker 7 (49:36):
It's so personal, and it's so It's also like, I
think something that people who aren't artists don't necessarily understand.
I'm sure conceptually they do, but like on a cellular level,
is that part of.
Speaker 5 (49:51):
Being an artist.
Speaker 7 (49:54):
Requires an audience, and so like there's this compulsion, there's.
Speaker 5 (50:04):
This like need.
Speaker 7 (50:05):
I think that we feel as artists to express and
share of our art, which we can do.
Speaker 5 (50:12):
But the back half of.
Speaker 7 (50:17):
That holistic experience involves people consuming what we've created. And
so I think the hardest part and part of why
so many artists are so lonely is because without success,
which is part of the reason I was like all
day long, I'd push that button.
Speaker 5 (50:35):
It's like.
Speaker 7 (50:38):
The circle of being an artist isn't closed. If you're
creating your art in a vacuum and no one is
hiring you, listening to your music, reading your books, looking
at your paintings, watching you dance, whatever form of art
you're expressing, if someone isn't consuming it, it sort of
doesn't feel whole. And I think that's the part that
(51:02):
is so hard and is so heartbreaking and makes this
life a really challenging one.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
I think that was one of the best explanations I've heard.
I loved when you said that it is making artists
full of romance in the business is so without romance.
I think that cuts to the core of it. The
title of your book is a questions does this make
me funny? Question? Mark? And I love the epilogue of
(51:29):
your book. It sort of shares that it's like your
attempt to answer that question. In my opinion, no, does
that not resonate?
Speaker 7 (51:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (51:39):
No, no, for sure, what is the question that you're
hoping readers walk away asking themselves.
Speaker 5 (51:48):
Oh, that's like a question.
Speaker 7 (51:50):
So you mentioned talking in therapy, so I'm assuming do
you know what it's like to be in therapy? And
sometimes I don't know if you've experienced this, but sometimes
I find the most powerful sessions are often the ones
where you go in and you're like, I don't really
(52:10):
have anything to talk about today, like maybe I don't
really want to do that, I don't have it, I'm fine,
this week was actually good. And I feel like sometimes
those are the ones where you uncover something and you're like,
oh my god, and.
Speaker 5 (52:29):
I think I have consumed.
Speaker 7 (52:35):
Things before where I went in with like no expectations
or no real idea that they would evoke anything like
particular in me, and they have somehow like.
Speaker 5 (52:52):
Lit a match on.
Speaker 7 (52:53):
Something and a flame is ignited, and I'm like, oh,
my goodness, I didn't even realize I needed to look
at that, or I needed to think about that, or.
Speaker 5 (53:02):
I felt that way.
Speaker 7 (53:04):
I hope that in the same way, if this makes sense,
readers walk away from this book with the question that
most needs asking.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
I really like that because everybody's going to take something
different from it. It's interesting to me, Zasha that your
books like it really shares a lot of pain. But
talking to you today, you're a very hopeful person.
Speaker 7 (53:32):
That's not that's thank you for saying that. That makes
me feel good. I think because I've had a lot
of trauma and I've experienced a lot of pain in
my life, I always try to kind of look at
those experiences under the microscope and be like, Okay, well,
like I guess to sound a little woo woo, it's like,
(53:52):
what what.
Speaker 5 (53:53):
Was that here to teach me?
Speaker 6 (53:55):
Like?
Speaker 5 (53:55):
What can I take from that?
Speaker 7 (53:56):
How can I how can I make that pain and
trauma not pointless, because otherwise it's just too sad.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
I was at one point when I was in a
sad place in my life, someone said to me, huh,
don't waste your suffering.
Speaker 5 (54:17):
Oh oh my god. That just gave me goose bumps.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Yes, yeah, and it's that right. Yeah, like you're cracked
open at this moment. What can you take from it?
Speaker 5 (54:30):
Mmmm?
Speaker 1 (54:31):
So yeah, I feel I think that was resonant in
your book. You have not wasted one bit of suffering.
Speaker 5 (54:40):
I'm happy you think that. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Okay. The last thing is called speed read, and we're
gonna see how many rapid fire literary questions you can
get through. I feel like you're gonna be really good
at this game.
Speaker 5 (54:51):
Oh my god, no, I'm scared.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
Now you're gonna be great. Okay, okay.
Speaker 7 (54:58):
Three?
Speaker 6 (54:58):
Two?
Speaker 1 (54:59):
What's one literary trope you would ban forever?
Speaker 5 (55:03):
Oh my god? And enemies to lovers?
Speaker 1 (55:08):
What's one that you'll defend with your life?
Speaker 5 (55:10):
Ooh, the hero's journey?
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Yes, that's so you just a kid with a dream. Okay.
What's at the top of your TVR pile?
Speaker 5 (55:18):
Uh?
Speaker 7 (55:18):
A brand new thriller called End of Story? Because I
need something quick and fun.
Speaker 1 (55:24):
What's at the top of show She's tbr pile.
Speaker 5 (55:26):
Oh my god, that's such a good question. What's the
latest book that Gwyneth Paltrow wrote?
Speaker 1 (55:34):
Oh, whichever one?
Speaker 5 (55:35):
Whichever one?
Speaker 1 (55:36):
That is great. Call. What's your favorite messy woman, complicated
girl character.
Speaker 5 (55:42):
Whoa like in literature? Yeah, She's come undone.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
A book you'd love to adapt for the screen.
Speaker 7 (55:51):
Oh, oh my god, that one's so tough. I mean
probably Sex and Rage by Eve Babbitts.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
What's the first book you stayed up all night to finish?
Speaker 5 (56:03):
I think a Little Princess.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
And lastly, what's the book that you gift most often?
Speaker 7 (56:09):
Ooh, potentially one of John Boyne's books. Probably Heard Some
Visible Furies. I also gift Dave Egger's Heroes of the
Frontier a lot, which is another one of my favorites.
Speaker 5 (56:25):
I probably gift Eve Babbitts a lot.
Speaker 7 (56:28):
And then I also love to give John Darien's Sticker
Book to people because it's like, it's like Stickers but
adult version.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
I haven't heard of that. That's so cute.
Speaker 5 (56:38):
Oh it's really great.
Speaker 1 (56:41):
Okay, thank you for that, Sasha, You are truly a
joy to talk to. Thank you for your time.
Speaker 5 (56:46):
Thank you, this was so fun.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Okay, friends, before we wrap today's episode, I'm bringing back
our monthly comfort segment from Cotton, called the book Nook.
It's where we explore the rituals that make reading feel
just right. And as you know, Cotton is at the
heart of so many of life's everyday comforts. Whether that's
(57:11):
your favorite cozy sweater, a worn and scarf, or the
sheets you just slip into after a long day. Cotton
helps us feel grounded and at ease, which makes it
the perfect companion for a good book wherever you read it.
So let's hear from another book Mark listener sharing their
ideal reading setup.
Speaker 5 (57:30):
Hi.
Speaker 6 (57:31):
My name is Sarah and I'm from Dallas, Texas, and
my ideal reading setup is on a patio at my
favorite coffee shop. I like being outside in good weather,
maybe the early morning. I don't wake up early often,
but when I do, it just feels so peaceful. Probably
(57:51):
getting an iced oat cappuccino, maybe a little pastry. And
while I'm being transported to this world through my book,
I can also kind of take breaks and people watch
and get a sense of my fellow coffee shop folk.
Speaker 1 (58:12):
Sarah, I love this. There's something so special about those
rare quiet mornings, you know, the light just starting to shift,
the first sip of coffee, a book in hand. I
can picture you wrapped up in a soft cotton cardigan,
feeling that gentle breeze as the world wakes up around you.
And I love how your ritual balances escape and connection.
You're in another world through your story, but still part
(58:34):
of the hum of the city. It's such a perfect
example of how comfort can be both cozy and alive,
grounded in the simple textures of everyday life. So, my friends,
keep your ideal reading setups coming. What are you wearing?
What's around you? Are you reading by sunlight or lamplight,
under a cotton throw or your coziest fall sweater. Take
(58:55):
me right into your perfect reading ritual. Leave me a
voicemail at five zero one, two, one, three, three seven nine,
or tell me this Where do you get lost in
a book? What textures surround you? Soft sheets, a cozy throw,
maybe your favorite cotton hoodie. Send your story to bookmarked
at Reese's book Club dot com. And thanks to Cotton
(59:16):
for bringing this segment to life and reminding us that
comfort and style can go hand in hand. Don't forget
to check the tag for cotton. And if you want
to learn more, head to the fabric of OurLives dot com.
If you want a little bit more from us, come
hang with us on socials. We're at Reese's book Club
(59:39):
on Instagram, serving up books, vibes and behind the scenes
magic And I'm Danielle Robe rob a y Come say
hi and DM me And if you want to go
nineties on us, you can call us. Okay, so our
phone line is open, So call us now at five
zero one two nine one three three seven nine. That's
five zero one two nine one three three seven nine.
(01:00:01):
Share your literary hot takes, your book recommendations, oh please
share those, and questions about the monthly pick, or just
let us know what you think about the episode you
just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself
in our next episode, so don't be shy. Give us
a ring, and of course, make sure to follow Bookmarked
by Reese's book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(01:00:22):
or wherever you get your shows. Until then, see you
in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of Hello
Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. It's executive produced by Reese Witherspoon
and me Danielle Robe. Production is by ACAST Creative Studios.
Our producers are Matty Foley, Brittany Martinez, and Sarah Schleid.
Our production assistant is Avery Loftis, Jenny Kaplan and Emily
(01:00:46):
Rudder are the executive producers for Acast Creative Studios. Maureene
Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for Hello Sunshine.
Olga Kaminwha, Sarah Kernerman, Kristin Perla and Ashley Rappaport are
associate producers for Recae book Club. Ali Perry and Lauren
Hanson are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts.
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