UT's Bureay of Economic Geology Director, Podcast Host, and Professor---Dr Scott Tinker---joins Kym Bolado to talk about changes in the energy landscape and what we can look forward to.
Inside the Oil Patch. The Latest information on the Oil, Gas, and Natural Gas industry with your host, Kym Bolado. For more information visit https://shalemag.com/in-the-oil-patch-schedule/
Inside the Oil Patch. The Latest information on the Oil, Gas, and Natural Gas industry with your host, Kym Bolado. For more information visit https://shalemag.com/in-the-oil-patch-schedule/
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(00:00):
Welcome to in the Oil Patch,presented by Shale Magazine, broadcasting from the
Oil Filled Experts Studios. Oil FilledExperts where you get the right products right
now in the oil patches, wheretogether we explore topics that affect us all
in oil gas business and in yourcommunity. Every week, your host Kim
Bolado will visit with the movers andshakers in this fast paced industry. You'll
(00:21):
hear from industry experts, elected officials, and many more right here on in
the oil Patch. I'd like totell you about the latest issue of Shall
Magazine in which is featuring the Stateof Alaska's Willow Project. You might be
familiar with it. It took along time to get through permitting project that
Chronico Philips has invested a lot oftime in energy and it makes a great
article to read on why we needenergy reform to have a solid energy policy
(00:47):
is important. So I encourage youto go to shallmag dot com to look
at the article. It's up nowto look at the latest issue show magazine.
If you go to shalmag dot comyou can find the article and many
more. Doctor Tinker, you arethe director of the Bureau Economic Geology the
States Geologists of Texas and a professorholding the All Day in GAO Chair in
(01:07):
the Jackson School of Geoscience at theUniversity of Texas in Austin. With your
director, Harry Lynch, you coproduce an award winning documentary film called Switch
at Switch On, which has beenscreened in over fifty countries. And Doctor
Tinker, you are the creator andthe chairman of the board and founder of
a nonprofit called Switch Energy Alliance,whose educational materials appear in schools and boardrooms
(01:32):
globally. And you also are thehost of PBS's Energy Switch. It's an
energy and climate talk show appearing onover two hundred PBS stations nationwide, an
Earth Day featured weekly, and overone hundred and fifty public radio stations in
all fifty of the United States.And you have visited over sixty countries.
(01:53):
You have given a thousand keynote andinvitational lectures. You also have presented a
TEDx talk called the Dual Challenge Energyand Environment, as well as sitting on
numerous public company boards and science counsels. And you've appeared in numerous major media
outlets such as Forbes, Fortune,and Scientific American. Thank you for being
a guest on annual Patch Radio show. It's a pleasure to have you.
(02:15):
Thanks, Kim. It's good tobe here with you. I have followed
you through the years, doctor Tinker, and you have done some amazing things.
Sometimes I wonder how your family enterswith you being gone so much.
You are truly doing a planet agift by traveling and continue doing to lectures
or your show, which we're goingto get into that as well in the
(02:37):
show. But I want to startwith your work that you're currently doing in
the unconventional and oil and gas reserves. Tell us a little bit about what
you're doing specifically with the University ofTexas in Austin. Yeah. Sure,
Well, I run the Bureau EconomicGeology, which is the oldest research unit
ut you were one hundred and thirteenyears old. Now they've been eight directors,
so they can't get rid of us, Kim. But anyway, they
(03:00):
have information. They have really alot of information that spans back a long
time. Yeah. Yeah, I'vebeen studying the Earth for a long time.
The Bureau has all sorts of resources, both subsurface and surface. We've
been in the Shaw game a longtime and probably started one of the first
consortia in that or funded really actuallynot as consourcially by by the Slane Boundation
(03:21):
now in New York City looking atreserves and resources, and that's been following
the big showe basins around the countryand that very integrated team. We also
have a consortium looking at them microstructures called mud Rocks Consortium, and then
several other groups that have looked atthese kinds of unconventional reservoirs for a long
time. And so I don't dothe work. I'm just cheerly. I
(03:44):
love to learn and listen and helpand bring some money into it and keep
them busy, you know. It'sit's a great group. So we really
truly do, I think, understandas well as most what the subsurface looks
like there and what the production futurecould hold for shale in this country and
potentially other places in the world.And it's an interesting one. Most people
(04:04):
listening to the show are average Baypeople that get up, go to work,
come home, take care of theirfamilies, want to do a softball
game or a basketball game on theweekend. We are all understanding energies of
a very important topic. You havebeen an energy scientist for a very very
long time. And while our listenersmight think, while you're in the University
of Austin, and what does thathave to do with me, You've done
(04:27):
so much and that's why I wastalking earlier about how much how I wonder
sometimes if you even sleep. You'veaccomplished so much energy education, and I
just can't say enough thank you fordoing it, because there's such great uncertainty
if the professionals have a hard timeunderstanding where we're going with energy, and
I'm talking about energy companies, they'reCEOs, senior management, venture capitalist,
(04:53):
or people who are investing in theseprojects are governments. This is a global
discussion and it's complicated, but youhave done it. Seems like your life
work is to educate everyone from themost educated in this sector to of course
the most misunderstood of what is happeninghere with energy. But energy is vital,
It actually requires we have to haveit to flourish as human beings.
(05:15):
And the fact that we now havesomething that's called energy transition occurring. You
recently created a ted X talk specificallyon this topic, and I want you
to cover that because you titled itthe Dual Challenge the Energy and many people
are really struggling with what is happeninghere. You know, like I said,
they get up, they go towork, they come home. They
(05:35):
just want to raise their family andhave a job, and yet there are
so many questions that their children comehome and ask them or they don't have
the answer to. And your tX talk, let's talk about that.
Tell me about what you were hopingto accomplish in your talk. It was
a very great talk. And Iencourage our listeners to go and look you
up, Scott Teager. Yeah,there is energy does enderpin everything in our
(05:59):
life and we don't Most of usdon't know that, and there's no reason
we would. But I did adoctor SEUs monet our pets and our jets,
our homes and our phones, ourheaters and our beaters, and on
and on and on everything in ourlives. And the challenge then is there's
the demand for energy is so greatglobally. Now that's in the rich world.
It turns out only about one outof eight of us live in the
(06:23):
rich world. The other seven billionpeople don't, and they're in various stages
of energy poverty and economic poverty fromsevere And we made a film about that
called switch on global film all kindof transitioning up to it. And as
they continue to increase in population fromeight billion headed toward ten and demand more
(06:45):
energy to lift themselves from poverty,which is absolutely essential that happens in the
world. We see the demand forenergy going up, Kim, and that's
the great challenge is adding energy,additional energy and also protecting environment. That's
the great dual challenge. And Ithink what's happened is we've kind of painted
the environment into a corner a littlebit, all about climate change, and
(07:09):
that's what many young people in therich world learn about is climate change.
And fair enough, it's a majorglobal issue. It's not the only issue
in the environment, though. There'sour water in our land and our air,
which are all important. And infact, the water, land and
air are more important to those otherseven billion people because they are trying to
find some clean water to drink andsoil that's not polluted, and some air
(07:30):
to breathe so they don't die fromindoor smoke inhalation by cooking indoors with wood
and dung, which three billion peoplein the world still do, killing three
million people every year, as muchas COVID killed in twenty twenty every year
breathing smoke indoors as much as COVID. So these are some things that most
of us don't understand. In thewealthy world, we sit here and zoom
back and forth, and our energyis reliable and it's affordable in life's great,
(07:56):
but not for everybody. So that'sthe great dual challenge, and very
passionate about that lifting seeing the worldcome up economically. And the reason for
that isn't just because I'm such agreat person and such a humanitarian all these
things. It's because it will betterthe world. It will better the world
economically, and it all will betterthe world's environment. The cleanest environments in
(08:20):
the world are where it's rich thosewho can afford to clean it up,
and we have regulatory systems and we'renot living under extreme autocracies, and we
don't have corruption at the level thatsystems can't ferret it out. And so
this is the great advantage I thinkto think about is why it matters to
all of us, is because itwill be better for the world, the
(08:41):
world's humans, and better for theworld's environment for all of us to have
access to affordable energy and then liftourselves up economically. Well, we're going
to get in a little bit lateron in the show UTV show, we're
going to really start drilling down forour listeners. But thank you for opening
with that, because to me,that's the most important topic is that we
(09:03):
really do not understand energy and howit applies. Most listeners a lot of
times don't understand even where when theyturn on their lights, which and they
have lights, where it comes from. We need a lot of informed information
disseminating and a lot less in myopinion, scare tactics, and a lot
of them are from elected officials witha narrative. And I'm not saying I'm
(09:26):
getting into who I like and that'snot the show, but we really need
to be informed about what so wecan make better decisions when we go to
the voting pools and an effected official, do they have sound energy policies because
it's going to affect us and notjust us here in the next day,
but you mentioned the global problem.There are many countries our listeners do not
(09:48):
understand that don't even have access toclean drinking water, or their life expectancy
is cut short because and strictly becausethey're poor the sixty countries in my life
have been four and seeing probably themost severe wealth and the most severe poverty,
and not just dropped into an airport, but spend time in it.
And not that I'm pretending to understandwhat it's like. I always get to
(10:09):
leave, so they don't. Andand and that's you know, kids,
And we brought first solar to Guncupo, Colombia, an indigenous village of our
Waco people. Those kids will die, half of them before they're eighteen,
from diarrhea or a tooth infection,something that wouldn't kill us. And so
I do I have an axiom.You know, most people don't know how
(10:31):
gasoline is made, to where electricitycomes from, but they think they do.
And it's not our fault, butwe do need to begin to understand
these things at a level deeper thansound bites. And I'll say it this
way. It's not binary. There'sno clean energy, there's no dirty energy,
there's no good or bad. Theyare really believers and deniers. No,
no, this is this isn't thebuyinary set of problems. They're they're
(10:54):
complex but solvable, you know,not simple, but solvable. If we
deal with all the data and information, and that's why you're passionate about with
you and zem Well and passion.Yes, we both have it in the
way of wanting to educate and inform, but all too often we do see
that there's a lot of misinformation.And now we're at a point where we
(11:16):
have elected officials seeing we have toget off the grid or we face annihilation
for the masses. They don't understandthat. And we see and I don't
want to get too deep into thesee the doctor tinkle, but we see
if we're having suicide in children becausethey can't see a positive future, we've
lost the narrative here. We needto understand that energy isn't going anywhere.
(11:37):
We need all of the forms,not just a few selected because of what
we're projecting a population coming on boardin the future. Correct. And so
when we really start drilling down,let's get away from the scare tactics.
People like you really matter because you'rean energy scientist, you do care about
the planet, and you're here toeducate because that's your background. But on
a specific topic that most people havea bias because there's either money behind it
(12:03):
or there is something in it asopposed to just let's just try to get
to the truth and let's try totransition whatever that looks like. But it's
going to be a great discussion inthe future, but it's also going to
be one that isn't figured out overnight, and we really want I think my
goal is to try to educate themasses. If you're going to go and
vote, go vote. If you'regoing to have an opinion, at least
be a little bit informed, becausewhat you're doing does matter to you,
(12:26):
and it matters to society, andwe should consider all things before we get
into these deep discussions. If youdon't want to go into this field and
work anymore because it's dirty, actuallythat's not the case. There's many,
many, many educated people in oiland gas. It's not a dirty industry.
It's actually quite intelligent these people,and it actually is a great industry
(12:48):
to go into, and it isthe future. It's just evolving into something
that may not look the same asit is today. Like a quick break,
real quick, it's need to anall creative show, and we'll be
like that doctor Tinker. Before thebreak, Kim had wonder for little moments,
which I typically do. I justlet's just try to get to the
(13:09):
information as correct as it can beof what is the energy need? Where
are we going, how does thislook? And from people who probably know
a lot more than me the interviewer. And so I was talking to you
about we need to get more informed, and you were going to say something
and I'm sorry I had to takea station break. Go ahead, no
(13:30):
problem. Well yeah, yeah,I think, yeah, I think the
concepts that we're talking about here,the demand for energy and the access to
energy, are just fundamental to things. And we tend to get a little
bit caught up in a dialogue thatis US and Western europe centric, and
(13:52):
those represent maybe combine about seven percentof the world's population, and it's a
wealthy, wealthy part of the population. And so as you start to think
beyond that a little bit, there'sa whole different set of dialogues out there.
So most of the world doesn't hatethe oil and gas industry. In
fact, it creates good jobs forthem, and they see it as part
(14:13):
of their future because it is they'regoing to need that energy. And African
Nations spoke with one voice at Toptwenty seven in Egypt and said, we're
gonna use oil and gas to liftthis from property. You did and we
are, and that's okay. That'snot a negative thing. The crisis,
the existential crisis being presented from someof these things, is unfortunate. Some
(14:35):
kids have taken it literally. Wewon't exist in ten or twenty years as
humans, and this is not agood narrative. There's work to do,
but it's not existential. So again, the challenge becomes more than a black
and white dialogue. Either you hateoil and gas or you don't. That's
not the issue here. Oil andgas and coal or actually poor things for
(15:00):
the world and have been and willbe. We got to clean up the
emissions from them, help slow andhopefully level out climate change through atmospheric emissions.
We also got to make sure thatthey and other forms of energy protect
the water and the land and theair. When you look at optionality,
and they've written a lot about this, there aren't any options for energy that
(15:22):
are clean in the sense of whatwe think everything. I'm a geologist,
I don't mind things coming from theearth, but everything that goes into a
solar panel or a wind turbine ora battery is mined from the earth.
All the metals and all the rareof elements and things, and then we
manufacture those and unfortunately they wear outlike everything. Wind turbine blades were out,
(15:45):
and the motors were We're out.The solar panels get scratched and wear
out. The batteries were out,as we all know, and we dump
them in landfills. We're not reasonusing and recycling them. It's too expensive,
so we dumped it all in landfilland we do it again. So
when you do something like you mindand make and use and dump over and
over, it's not renewable. Sothis is a great, I think,
fallacy that we've continued to propagate.There's renewable energy, there isn't. There's
(16:10):
nothing that to collect the Earth's energy, whether it's the sun and the wind,
or waves and tides, or biomassor oil or gas or coal or
uranium, me thorium, whatever itis we're using to create energy, none
of it's renewable. So we gotto get our heads around that thought and
then and that's okay. It's notan end of the world thought. It's
one that says, each one hasimpacts. How are we going to clean
(16:32):
up those impacts as we scale themto meet the world's demand for energy,
and again it's very doable. That'sexcitingly doable. I would encourage young people
who are excited by this, whetherthey're in science and engineering, or policy
or law or business. There's somuch opportunity in this space. It's remarkable.
So get into it, you know, roll your sleeves up and become
part of the solution and you'll havea remarkable career. You know. I'm
(16:55):
glad you also said that because aswe start wherever this transition looks like,
and it's certainly going to be dynamic, there's a lot of things happening here,
a lot of moving parts. Butthere's also in your show Switch Energy
Alliance, which is your You createdthis nonprofit and your chairman of the board
and founder of it. It actuallyis part well. Energy Switch is part
(17:19):
of documentaries that you and your directorHarry Lynch co produced together, and that's
designed to go to schools and boardrooms globally to help inform and educate.
But you also have created something thatI'm very impressed with. You're the host
of the Energy Switch. It's anenergy and climate talk show appearing in over
two hundred stations. This is impressivebecause it's you know, very new speak
(17:42):
today. You break it down ina way we can understand. We don't
need another highly technical show that noone understands. And so comparing for the
show, I was able to listento the majority of your shows and I
impressed with First of all, it'stop quality, so kudos to you.
It's great. It also really hitswhere people need to hear. So I
(18:03):
want to drill down into a fewbecause it's not just that you also have
you're also on the radio as well. Let's start with a couple of what
created you to want to do theEnergy Switch Alliance. It's a nonprofit that
you Yeah, Harry is a brilliantguy, filmmaker, documented filmmaker across the
space. He's made things on mentalhealth and he has a Friday night on
(18:26):
PBS on classical music and all sortsof net called Now Hear This. I
met Harry fifteen years ago we startedmaking the first film Switch feature Link.
We went to eleven countries just toshow people what energy looks like in the
world, the pros and cons.It was really the first film on energy.
Transition if you will, came outin twenty twelve, and then we
got back together years later, Isaid, Harry, we missed half the
(18:48):
world. Let's go look at thosewho don't have much. And we made
Switch on our second feature, LeakFilm, and in doing that form of
a one C three called the SwitchEnergy Alliance. So that's the company,
if you will, into which allthis energy education sits mostly film based.
We have a platform for high schoolscalled SWITCH Classroom. It provides the energy
(19:11):
component of AP environmental sciences nationwide thatthose teachers who want to use it,
it's free to them and it's supplemental. We have a Teacher Advisory Council.
AP scores go up. It's CollegeBoard certified, but it's supplemental and free.
Wonderful stuff. We've got a filmand museums, etc. So a
lot of and things we do incampuses, a case competition for energy poverty
(19:33):
internationally, a lot of any thingsgoing on. But one of the areas
we wanted to try to access wasthe educated public who wants to learn a
little bit more right. And sothe PBS audience is an educated public,
for sure. They lean a littleleft in the aggregate. They're all over
the board and in the aggregate alittle left to center. That's fine.
So we created this talk show calledEnergy Switch. I'm the host of two
(19:56):
guests, and so there's an underlyingtheme. The two guests we invite don't
agree on everything, but they're veryhigh level people, and we talk about
We'll talk for an hour and ahalf and we edit it down to twenty
five minutes, so it's very digestible, and you hear civil dialogue. You
hear critical thinking and civil dialogue aroundbig issues of people, and all of
a sudden, the audience is saying, hey, there's not a believer in
(20:18):
denier here. These are real issues. And as host, I don't say
much unless I need to bring themback onto the range, and you know,
if we can get too far afieldwith data, but let those folks
visit it. And it's really powerfulwhen you start to see that kind of
discussion going on. Very good,doctor Tinker. Let's take a quick break,
because when we return from break,I want to drill down in two
(20:40):
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(21:00):
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us two ten two four oh sevenone eight eight Again that's two ten two
four h seventy one eighty eight andreacculus listening to an old patriot to show.
(21:25):
My guest today is doctor Scott Tinker, Professor, University of Texas in
Austin. Doctor Tinker, your showEnergy Switch, weren't mean introduced it into
this way? You had part onein two on the discussion of more nuclear
power. Nuclear power is not reallytalked about a lot as an option.
In many ways. We hear newerbeing such a solar win and more sexier.
(21:48):
Is hydrogen coming on if you willthe topics. But good old nuclear
power has been around for quite sometime, and when people think about nuclear
power they kind of get a reallybad quick image of Chernobyl or Fukushima,
right, But that's not really thecase. So I want you to set
up your show that you had withtwo guests who came across a kind of
(22:11):
dueling, and to me it gota little interesting with Michael Schellenberger, who's
been a guest on the show.But let's start with your two guests.
Let's start with that and start withthe topic at first. Was your point?
What was you what were you tryingto accomplish on the show. So
Argian, Markajanni and Michael Schellenberger cameon, and we wanted to have an
(22:34):
open dialogue at a high level aboutnuclear and the pros and cons. You
know, do we need more ornot globally And that's the context we usually
ask a simple question like that,which sets up the show we have.
Subsequently, season two has come out. Now we've just filmed season three.
We do more on nuclear and differentways. But they were are Jon is
(22:55):
a physicist, he's a very smartguy and understands nuclear power and nuclear weapons.
Yeah yeah, yeah, but hewas kind of against nuclear and that
was the great irony. Michael Sellienbergerwas pro nuclear and Michael is a very
smart guy to a journalist and agood friend, and he's written books and
things and etc. So yeah,they had a wonderful discussion. I think
(23:18):
our June's in the end of theday, biggest concern was just timeframes.
Can you can you build it fastenough? Can you scale it? Are
we gonna are we gonna? Isgonna be allowed to happen? Even and
and Michael was arguing to carry forwardwith the current technologies, light water reactors,
the larger ones, gigawatt scale,so they weren't needn't you know.
(23:41):
There were some testy parts in there, but they didn't overall disagree completely.
Neither one was saying nuclear is goingto kill the world. They were just
really more practical about can you addressclimate change without nuclear? Probably not,
But you can't build nuclear fast enough. So why I go down the nuclear
path? Well, you can buildsome and some places. China is building
(24:04):
a lot of nuclear right now andmaybe India is going to follow, and
that's very different from the US.So we have to go again, Kim,
to our global perspective about these thingsand not yet too parochial. So
it's a great show. The pointhere, though, I think, is
we try to model civil dialogue,and yes, we can disagree and disagree
over data and economics and physics andother kinds of things. But we don't
(24:27):
start calling one another names or cancelingone another off of whole platforms because we
disagree, you know. And thisis the I think, this is what
our political leaders and our young peoplein our in our faculty and others need
to really again begin to encourage,is civil dialogue and critical thinking around these
issues. And we don't have toagree on everything. It doesn't mean you're
(24:49):
good and I'm bad, you know, or I'm right and you're wrong.
Usually there's combinations of all those things. And you know, it's a discussion,
that's real, that's so right.Has the discussion has really gotten to
a fever pitch, if you will, that is just not doing anyone any
good. When we come back frombreak, I want to drill down a
little bit more because I want youto explain to the listeners why nuclear is
(25:11):
so popular according to Michael Schellenberger,and what seems to be the problem.
I think again, when most peoplethink about nuclear, they really just kind
of get a quick snapshot of Chernobyland they turn away from it. But
there are some good reasons to lookat nuclear, and I want to talk
about the future of nuclear as well. Let's take a sure Frank, you're
an old count trader show, We'llbe right back. Are you a business
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your one stop shop for growing yourbusiness. Pick up the phone today and
call two ten, two four ohseven one eight eight again two ten,
two four h seventy one eighty eight. We're back. You're listening to an
old patent radio show, Doctor Tinker. Before the break, we were talking
(27:29):
about your show specifically, and oneof the shows you had was discussing nuclear
power. You had part one,part two. But I want to back
up just a little bit because alot of listeners when they hear nuclear power,
I think they cringe. I thinkthey are afraid of it. I
don't think they're very familiar with it. Is this a solution for the future
because nuclear doesn't provide any real waste? So what is the problem with nuclear
(27:52):
in the way of wasting the mean, I mean error admissions and things.
Is it's more promising, But yetit seems to be a lot more scarier
for people when you break that downfor us that we understand why nuclear power
could be a solution to energy transitionin the future. Yeah, nuclear suffers
from an image problem for sure,nuclear and you think, oh, no
(28:12):
radioactivity, etc. And that's veryprevalent in Europe still. Now the promising
thing here is young people today.I'm old, I was trained to be
scared of nuclear power, are nuclearenergy, But young people today have not
been trained that way, and they'vebeen trained to be scared of climate change,
but they're not scared of nuclear Soand that's good. What nuclear power,
(28:37):
Let's separate it from nuclear weapons.Okay, nuclear weapons are a different
technology and require different weapons grade radioactivestuff plutonium that's really high level. So
nuclear power uses just the heat generatedfrom a radioactive reaction to boil water and
make steam and turn a generator,you know, and and create electricity and
(29:02):
make power. Same thing that burningcoal or burning gas or it's just heat.
Different source of heat, boil water, make steam during a driven run
a generator. Now, nuclear electricityactually on a per kilowat hour basis,
has been the safest of all formsof electric generation. Period far and away.
Actually it's the safest on a kilowatthour basis very dense, which means
(29:25):
that reactor is running ninety seven percentof the time. The source of heat
is very dense, so doesn't takemuch urin even to make a whole lot
of heat compared to other things includingnatural gas and coal and certainly the solar
and wind, which is very lowdensity, so a big advantage there no
emissions at the site, you dohave the radioactive waste that is produced,
(29:48):
and you've got to manage that well. More modern reactors are using a lot
of the heat and that waste beforethey finally take it off for ultimate disposal,
and and you got a man it'sthat, but it's not weapons great.
So if you're passionate about climate changeand its impacts, you also better
be pretty passionate pro nuclear because thatis the scalable source of non emissions energy
(30:15):
that can go globally today, andright now they're mostly big kim gigawatt that's
a thousand megawatts. That's a lot. A big wind turban is about two
megawatts, so this would be athousand of those, and the wind only
gets captured about a third of thetime. That's called a capacity factor,
(30:36):
where nuclear's almost one hundred percent,So thousands of turbans wind turbans to be
one nuclear reactor. They just kindof think of that scale. But there's
also smaller modular reactors, so we'vehad them forever on aircraft carriers and submarines.
Those are nuclear powered vessels that goaround the ocean. They float and
move. Smaller ones could be deployedtoday in local areas fifty megawatt that kind
(31:00):
of scale. The ones that areprevalent new scale and terra power, and
there are others, but those arekind of the two leaders. They propose
to bury them in the earth,so in a canister no bigger than this
room really in many ways a littlebit bigger and down in the earth and
very well protected, so you coulddistribute them. You could start to see
them in Africa and Latin American partsof the world that don't have much energy
(31:23):
today as a very stable source ofenergy and complementing solar and wind. I
think what I'd like to communicate hereis nuclear has a very strong role to
play. It's not the only role, but we've got to stop demonizing one
and competing it against another. Thesethings, they all have roles to play,
they all have pros and cons andchallenges. Nothing's perfect. But let's
(31:45):
work on the complementary aspects of them, and I think we'll get a lot
farther to the listener who is saying, Okay, so, doctor Tinker,
you told me, you said thatnuclear power is a solution. We're not
talking about mass destruction weapon and wewere talking about energy sources and there are
some solutions out there in your opinion, are we moving in this direction versus
(32:09):
others you know? Are okay?So yeah, we being the world again,
not Europe except for France and maybePoland and Romania, maybe a couple
other Eastern European and the US ispretty slow on it. But the world
is China is building fifty new reactorstoday, of course, and have another
(32:30):
These are big ones, another hundredon the books. We're starting to see
movement in other big, high population, low income nations like India, Bangladesh
and others that are starting to talkabout nuclear as part of their portfolio for
affordable, low emissions to no emissionsdense energy. So the world is moving
(32:50):
this way. Needs to The USand Western Europe need to kind of get
going to keep up, otherwise weget left behind. Why do you think
this is slow walking here in theUnited States as far as us looking at
it. Is there a specific reasonwhy you feel that we're just not really
moving towards it. Well, it'sa big technological process, and some people
(33:13):
don't like big industrial technology complexes.They're just scared of those. Some have
been again they're scared of nuclear,the word nuclear and nuclear waste. What
do we do with it? Howdo we manage it? So that's very
real. Some of it's just proliferatingpropaganda. You know, you can use
whatever word you want. Misinformation,disinformation, you bad information, all wrong.
(33:38):
Yeah, there's a lot of supportstill for some groups that are anti
nuclear. Now that's it. It'sinteresting. Some of the bigger NGOs are
actually pro nuclear. The ones thatare truly passionate about addressing emissions and climate
change are pro nuclear. So it'screating these interesting groups that are working together.
I'll be fascinating to see how thatplays out. But it's a lot
(34:00):
further along than it was ten,five, ten, even fifteen years ago.
That range. It's really coming intothe limelight now as part of the
solution. Well, hopefully as welook at energy reform and trying to get
something past, so energy companies asa whole can make decisions in the creature
(34:20):
that might be a little more solidthan what they are right now. If
it's past, maybe this might bea solution for us as well. We
have one last segment of the showwhen we return from break, and I
want to really drill down into thegeo political scene. You had to show
it on Energy Switch as well thattalked about this, and I want to
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(36:14):
You're listening to a little Petrego show. My guest today is doctor Scott
Tinker, Doctor Tinker. Before thebreak, we were talking about your TV
series that is airing on a lotof markets and PPS and kudus to them
for taking this topic on. AndI do want to acknowledge you said it
typically tends to be a little leftleaning their viewership, whereas talk radio is
a little more right leaning. Idon't probably get nearly as many emails path
to emails as you probably do.But that being said, I love your
(36:37):
series Energy Switch. Everyone should goand get informed. You're on your third,
you're on your second series. Youkeeped your third from what I'm hearing,
so it's great. This needs tocontinue and hopefully more stations pick you
up and see the benefit of educatingand informing the masses. And I'm not
just talking about the United States,because this is a global discussion, if
you will, but I want totalk about one that's labeled one of your
series, your Energy Switch series onthe new gu Flit of Energy. Daniel
(37:00):
Jurgen is the vice chair of SMPGlobal. We have them on the show,
not him specifically, one of histeam last week and I've interviewed him
personally. Well, you also intervieweddoctor Ernest Moonies. I was I found
that show very interesting as well,because this whole discussion is changing, and
it really changes by who gets electedinto different countries here in the United States.
(37:20):
So I want you to kind ofgo over what did you pull out
from that show? What was themost important things pertaining to the geopolitical landscape
Evie will with different countries. Italmost seems as though countries have kind of
gotten into a competitive state deviewill insome ways when we talk about energy and
some are you coming into solar andwin and that's their favorite and they're going
to stick with it. Others areinvestigating different things. So what is the
(37:42):
geopolitical landscape look like? Yeah,it's politics, so it's all over the
board. Dan Jurgen is a goodfriend, so as are any money is
there. They've been good friends along time, very smart people and have
seen the world. So you see, I think the fundamental piece here is
unchanged, but more vocal now.Energy security drives every political leader in the
world secure energy for its nation forvarious reasons. Some do well with it
(38:05):
and others use it as a weapon, but it drives. Climate change has
been very front and center. Butthe minute Ukraine happened and mister Putin went
in there. All the sudden,energy security was on everyone's lips again from
Europe, so went for example,in Germany, when Russia cut off the
natural gas pipeline, Germany went backto coal. So coal became more important
than climate in Germany because they neededto secure electricity generation. So this is
(38:28):
this is a fundamental geopolitical driver.The other one that's very important, and
I write about a rote A pieceand fortune last fall, energy optionality.
It's really important to have a portfolioof energy options if you can, within
your toolkit, because no single energydoes at all. And if we start
to eliminate options politically, let's saywe cut off gas hookups or we mandate
(38:50):
electric vehicles, only all of asudden you've eliminated these other options and markets
respond very poorly. They always haveand they always will because there's nothing perfect,
and so we an ev is goodfor some things, but not for
all things. Gas hookups are greatfor some things, but not for all
things. Electricity is useful as well. So optionality and this is Scott talking
someone was in that show, butbroader than that is so critical in the
(39:13):
energy world. And I think ourpolitical leaders tend to get lost with that
as they push their favorite thing downto their voters who are demanding it,
and as we talked about earlier,voters demand it, but it doesn't mean
they understand what they're asking for.You know, they have a concept,
but it doesn't mean they understand allthe ramifications of that. And we're all
smart people. I don't talk downto any human being on this show or
anywhere else. We all get it. It's just that we don't understand all
(39:35):
the complex relationships because it's really soa good and a good intention has these
unintended consequences later and we go,oops, how did that happen? So
you gotta start to thinking out front. Well, and another thing though on
the show and how it was youplayed out, is so we saw what
happened with Europe and they're really kindof digging into solar and win. How
(40:00):
do you feel the United States inour leadership and where we're heading towards?
Are we on the right path?Because I want to switch gears and talk
about electric vehicles and e because weare on a path of net zero.
There's a lot up on the tablecontaining but I don't see the how we
get there. YEA infrastructure and Idon't see us being able to do that,
but I could be wrong. Nowzero is a it's a big challenge.
(40:22):
It's kind of these neat words andthe goal, but I think it
sets up systems that may have badconsequences. A net fifty maybe your net
thirty. Why net zero? Justreducing emissions would be a good overarching and
it's interesting. So I like netzero poverty myself. I'd like to lift
the world out of poverty. Andif we do that, we'll have a
better chance of going towards net zeromissions because fewer people will be burning dumb
(40:43):
and hay inside their homes. IfI come back here, we each of
our US states are kind of likeEuropean countries. California, Texas, New
York, Florida are as big asEuropean countries, so a federal policy here
is a very different thing. Somestates have gone far down the road of
mans California, cutting off gas andmandating EVSE. Others are keeping broader portfolios.
(41:05):
And the interesting thing about all thatkim is is there are only eleven
states in the country the US.Eleven United States that produce more energy than
they consume. Thirty nine states areconsumers, and they're replying on everybody else
to send them their electricity and theirfuels and their stuff. So it's easier
to be so called green when youask everybody else to make your stuff.
(41:27):
But that doesn't work for the climate, and it really doesn't work for the
environment. We all have to beginto acknowledge that this has impacts and just
because it's over there doesn't mean it'snot impacting the environment. And that's a
very important concept. I think wedo get it. I think we do
understand that. Well, if wehave one world that we live on,
live in, and if Russia isblowing and going over here or any other
(41:51):
countries, I shouldn't just called outa country. What difference does it make.
We all live on one planet.If we have this problem, we
need to come up with a solution. And then it just makes everybody throw
up their hands and say, well, wait a minute, do we even
have a problem. Obviously we wantto be greener, we want to be
environmentalists. Obviously we want to tryto do things differently and better. But
some countries are coming along, somecountries aren't, and we're one of them.
(42:15):
That is I think taking a leadingstand on that we want to be
part of whatever energy solutions wait forus in the future. Do you feel
I'm not trying to put you onthe spot, but I just want for
you to tell me. Do youthink that we have a real sustainable energy
plan currently? I mean, alot of you said you're going to have
an upcoming show talking about electric vehicles, and again, I think it's great,
(42:38):
and I think a few privileged peoplewill be able to drive these,
But I don't know how we getthe masses of the black words. Tell
me, are we are? We? Almost there? No? No,
Well, specific dvs are pros andcons. You know, the smaller vehicles
electrify them. That's fine, youdon't have to drive that far. And
the fuel a week, which isa battery, isn't as much proportionately,
as the vehicles get bigger and moreand more, the weight becomes the battery,
(43:00):
and so you're pulling around the batteryand batteries are not efficient fuel.
The motor is very efficient, theelectric motor, but the battery itself is
not deficient. You've got a cellphone, you know how often you charge
it? So, yeah, thesethings require a tremendous amount of earth materials,
heavyweight, and so as you getinto bigger vehicles, combustion engines still
are good fuel cells, hydrogen,compressed natural gas, etc. Optionality different
(43:23):
options. So when our government startsto federal land states say you can only
do this, is when they've kindof lost the thread. They've lost the
thread, and you know, it'sstarting to pander to a voter base on
all sides. By the way,this isn't one political aisle or the other.
Then the government needs to keep openthese options and then allow markets to
compete to do these things. TheUS it's it's our energy policy is and
(43:46):
then people talk about it, butwho would write it, you know which
side? And are they going toimpose it on states and states? Texas
is different from Washington State, Floridais different from New York, etc.
So I don't think it's as badas people say, as long we don't
try to impose pick winners, ifyou will, energy winners in different sectors
transportation, residential, commercial, industrial, don't pick winners to set these broader
(44:10):
targets. Affordable, reliable, lowemissions, don't hurt the water, the
land, of the air. Ifyou can do these things, we're moving
in a good direction. Then letthe markets compete and bring us at scale
the kinds of things we need there. Well, Doctor Tinker, I want
to thank you for joining me todayon a new Old Patch radio show.
The links to your Energy Switch show, along with all of the stuff that
you've done. Your Techex talk willalso be on there as well. I
(44:34):
do encourage our listeners to look youup. You have a lot of great
information, break it down very easy. If they want to get informed,
you got to start by clicking outa button, folks and listening to what
doctor tinkers, some of his lecturesand some of his shows. Thank you
again for joining me on today's innOld Patch radio show. It's been my
pleasure. Thanks for doing it.In the oil Patch is where together we
explore topics that affect us all inoil gas business and in your community.
(44:58):
Every week, your host Kim Blatovisit with the movers and shakers in this
fast paced industry. You'll hear fromindustry experts, elected officials, and many
more right here on in the oilPatch
Welcome to in the Oil Patch,presented by Shale Magazine, broadcasting from the
Oil Filled Experts Studios. Oil FilledExperts where you get the right products right
now in the oil patches, wheretogether we explore topics that affect us all
in oil gas business and in yourcommunity. Every week, your host Kim
Bolado will visit with the movers andshakers in this fast paced industry. You'll
(00:21):
hear from industry experts, elected officials, and many more right here on in
the oil Patch. I'd like totell you about the latest issue of Shall
Magazine in which is featuring the Stateof Alaska's Willow Project. You might be
familiar with it. It took along time to get through permitting project that
Chronico Philips has invested a lot oftime in energy and it makes a great
article to read on why we needenergy reform to have a solid energy policy
(00:47):
is important. So I encourage youto go to shallmag dot com to look
at the article. It's up nowto look at the latest issue show magazine.
If you go to shalmag dot comyou can find the article and many
more. Doctor Tinker, you arethe director of the Bureau Economic Geology the
States Geologists of Texas and a professorholding the All Day in GAO Chair in
(01:07):
the Jackson School of Geoscience at theUniversity of Texas in Austin. With your
director, Harry Lynch, you coproduce an award winning documentary film called Switch
at Switch On, which has beenscreened in over fifty countries. And Doctor
Tinker, you are the creator andthe chairman of the board and founder of
a nonprofit called Switch Energy Alliance,whose educational materials appear in schools and boardrooms
(01:32):
globally. And you also are thehost of PBS's Energy Switch. It's an
energy and climate talk show appearing onover two hundred PBS stations nationwide, an
Earth Day featured weekly, and overone hundred and fifty public radio stations in
all fifty of the United States.And you have visited over sixty countries.
(01:53):
You have given a thousand keynote andinvitational lectures. You also have presented a
TEDx talk called the Dual Challenge Energyand Environment, as well as sitting on
numerous public company boards and science counsels. And you've appeared in numerous major media
outlets such as Forbes, Fortune,and Scientific American. Thank you for being
a guest on annual Patch Radio show. It's a pleasure to have you.
(02:15):
Thanks, Kim. It's good tobe here with you. I have followed
you through the years, doctor Tinker, and you have done some amazing things.
Sometimes I wonder how your family enterswith you being gone so much.
You are truly doing a planet agift by traveling and continue doing to lectures
or your show, which we're goingto get into that as well in the
(02:37):
show. But I want to startwith your work that you're currently doing in
the unconventional and oil and gas reserves. Tell us a little bit about what
you're doing specifically with the University ofTexas in Austin. Yeah. Sure,
Well, I run the Bureau EconomicGeology, which is the oldest research unit
ut you were one hundred and thirteenyears old. Now they've been eight directors,
so they can't get rid of us, Kim. But anyway, they
(03:00):
have information. They have really alot of information that spans back a long
time. Yeah. Yeah, I'vebeen studying the Earth for a long time.
The Bureau has all sorts of resources, both subsurface and surface. We've
been in the Shaw game a longtime and probably started one of the first
consortia in that or funded really actuallynot as consourcially by by the Slane Boundation
(03:21):
now in New York City looking atreserves and resources, and that's been following
the big showe basins around the countryand that very integrated team. We also
have a consortium looking at them microstructures called mud Rocks Consortium, and then
several other groups that have looked atthese kinds of unconventional reservoirs for a long
time. And so I don't dothe work. I'm just cheerly. I
(03:44):
love to learn and listen and helpand bring some money into it and keep
them busy, you know. It'sit's a great group. So we really
truly do, I think, understandas well as most what the subsurface looks
like there and what the production futurecould hold for shale in this country and
potentially other places in the world.And it's an interesting one. Most people
(04:04):
listening to the show are average Baypeople that get up, go to work,
come home, take care of theirfamilies, want to do a softball
game or a basketball game on theweekend. We are all understanding energies of
a very important topic. You havebeen an energy scientist for a very very
long time. And while our listenersmight think, while you're in the University
of Austin, and what does thathave to do with me, You've done
(04:27):
so much and that's why I wastalking earlier about how much how I wonder
sometimes if you even sleep. You'veaccomplished so much energy education, and I
just can't say enough thank you fordoing it, because there's such great uncertainty
if the professionals have a hard timeunderstanding where we're going with energy, and
I'm talking about energy companies, they'reCEOs, senior management, venture capitalist,
(04:53):
or people who are investing in theseprojects are governments. This is a global
discussion and it's complicated, but youhave done it. Seems like your life
work is to educate everyone from themost educated in this sector to of course
the most misunderstood of what is happeninghere with energy. But energy is vital,
It actually requires we have to haveit to flourish as human beings.
(05:15):
And the fact that we now havesomething that's called energy transition occurring. You
recently created a ted X talk specificallyon this topic, and I want you
to cover that because you titled itthe Dual Challenge the Energy and many people
are really struggling with what is happeninghere. You know, like I said,
they get up, they go towork, they come home. They
(05:35):
just want to raise their family andhave a job, and yet there are
so many questions that their children comehome and ask them or they don't have
the answer to. And your tX talk, let's talk about that.
Tell me about what you were hopingto accomplish in your talk. It was
a very great talk. And Iencourage our listeners to go and look you
up, Scott Teager. Yeah,there is energy does enderpin everything in our
(05:59):
life and we don't Most of usdon't know that, and there's no reason
we would. But I did adoctor SEUs monet our pets and our jets,
our homes and our phones, ourheaters and our beaters, and on
and on and on everything in ourlives. And the challenge then is there's
the demand for energy is so greatglobally. Now that's in the rich world.
It turns out only about one outof eight of us live in the
(06:23):
rich world. The other seven billionpeople don't, and they're in various stages
of energy poverty and economic poverty fromsevere And we made a film about that
called switch on global film all kindof transitioning up to it. And as
they continue to increase in population fromeight billion headed toward ten and demand more
(06:45):
energy to lift themselves from poverty,which is absolutely essential that happens in the
world. We see the demand forenergy going up, Kim, and that's
the great challenge is adding energy,additional energy and also protecting environment. That's
the great dual challenge. And Ithink what's happened is we've kind of painted
the environment into a corner a littlebit, all about climate change, and
(07:09):
that's what many young people in therich world learn about is climate change.
And fair enough, it's a majorglobal issue. It's not the only issue
in the environment, though. There'sour water in our land and our air,
which are all important. And infact, the water, land and
air are more important to those otherseven billion people because they are trying to
find some clean water to drink andsoil that's not polluted, and some air
(07:30):
to breathe so they don't die fromindoor smoke inhalation by cooking indoors with wood
and dung, which three billion peoplein the world still do, killing three
million people every year, as muchas COVID killed in twenty twenty every year
breathing smoke indoors as much as COVID. So these are some things that most
of us don't understand. In thewealthy world, we sit here and zoom
back and forth, and our energyis reliable and it's affordable in life's great,
(07:56):
but not for everybody. So that'sthe great dual challenge, and very
passionate about that lifting seeing the worldcome up economically. And the reason for
that isn't just because I'm such agreat person and such a humanitarian all these
things. It's because it will betterthe world. It will better the world
economically, and it all will betterthe world's environment. The cleanest environments in
(08:20):
the world are where it's rich thosewho can afford to clean it up,
and we have regulatory systems and we'renot living under extreme autocracies, and we
don't have corruption at the level thatsystems can't ferret it out. And so
this is the great advantage I thinkto think about is why it matters to
all of us, is because itwill be better for the world, the
(08:41):
world's humans, and better for theworld's environment for all of us to have
access to affordable energy and then liftourselves up economically. Well, we're going
to get in a little bit lateron in the show UTV show, we're
going to really start drilling down forour listeners. But thank you for opening
with that, because to me,that's the most important topic is that we
(09:03):
really do not understand energy and howit applies. Most listeners a lot of
times don't understand even where when theyturn on their lights, which and they
have lights, where it comes from. We need a lot of informed information
disseminating and a lot less in myopinion, scare tactics, and a lot
of them are from elected officials witha narrative. And I'm not saying I'm
(09:26):
getting into who I like and that'snot the show, but we really need
to be informed about what so wecan make better decisions when we go to
the voting pools and an effected official, do they have sound energy policies because
it's going to affect us and notjust us here in the next day,
but you mentioned the global problem.There are many countries our listeners do not
(09:48):
understand that don't even have access toclean drinking water, or their life expectancy
is cut short because and strictly becausethey're poor the sixty countries in my life
have been four and seeing probably themost severe wealth and the most severe poverty,
and not just dropped into an airport, but spend time in it.
And not that I'm pretending to understandwhat it's like. I always get to
(10:09):
leave, so they don't. Andand and that's you know, kids,
And we brought first solar to Guncupo, Colombia, an indigenous village of our
Waco people. Those kids will die, half of them before they're eighteen,
from diarrhea or a tooth infection,something that wouldn't kill us. And so
I do I have an axiom.You know, most people don't know how
(10:31):
gasoline is made, to where electricitycomes from, but they think they do.
And it's not our fault, butwe do need to begin to understand
these things at a level deeper thansound bites. And I'll say it this
way. It's not binary. There'sno clean energy, there's no dirty energy,
there's no good or bad. Theyare really believers and deniers. No,
no, this is this isn't thebuyinary set of problems. They're they're
(10:54):
complex but solvable, you know,not simple, but solvable. If we
deal with all the data and information, and that's why you're passionate about with
you and zem Well and passion.Yes, we both have it in the
way of wanting to educate and inform, but all too often we do see
that there's a lot of misinformation.And now we're at a point where we
(11:16):
have elected officials seeing we have toget off the grid or we face annihilation
for the masses. They don't understandthat. And we see and I don't
want to get too deep into thesee the doctor tinkle, but we see
if we're having suicide in children becausethey can't see a positive future, we've
lost the narrative here. We needto understand that energy isn't going anywhere.
(11:37):
We need all of the forms,not just a few selected because of what
we're projecting a population coming on boardin the future. Correct. And so
when we really start drilling down,let's get away from the scare tactics.
People like you really matter because you'rean energy scientist, you do care about
the planet, and you're here toeducate because that's your background. But on
a specific topic that most people havea bias because there's either money behind it
(12:03):
or there is something in it asopposed to just let's just try to get
to the truth and let's try totransition whatever that looks like. But it's
going to be a great discussion inthe future, but it's also going to
be one that isn't figured out overnight, and we really want I think my
goal is to try to educate themasses. If you're going to go and
vote, go vote. If you'regoing to have an opinion, at least
be a little bit informed, becausewhat you're doing does matter to you,
(12:26):
and it matters to society, andwe should consider all things before we get
into these deep discussions. If youdon't want to go into this field and
work anymore because it's dirty, actuallythat's not the case. There's many,
many, many educated people in oiland gas. It's not a dirty industry.
It's actually quite intelligent these people,and it actually is a great industry
(12:48):
to go into, and it isthe future. It's just evolving into something
that may not look the same asit is today. Like a quick break,
real quick, it's need to anall creative show, and we'll be
like that doctor Tinker. Before thebreak, Kim had wonder for little moments,
which I typically do. I justlet's just try to get to the
(13:09):
information as correct as it can beof what is the energy need? Where
are we going, how does thislook? And from people who probably know
a lot more than me the interviewer. And so I was talking to you
about we need to get more informed, and you were going to say something
and I'm sorry I had to takea station break. Go ahead, no
(13:30):
problem. Well yeah, yeah,I think, yeah, I think the
concepts that we're talking about here,the demand for energy and the access to
energy, are just fundamental to things. And we tend to get a little
bit caught up in a dialogue thatis US and Western europe centric, and
(13:52):
those represent maybe combine about seven percentof the world's population, and it's a
wealthy, wealthy part of the population. And so as you start to think
beyond that a little bit, there'sa whole different set of dialogues out there.
So most of the world doesn't hatethe oil and gas industry. In
fact, it creates good jobs forthem, and they see it as part
(14:13):
of their future because it is they'regoing to need that energy. And African
Nations spoke with one voice at Toptwenty seven in Egypt and said, we're
gonna use oil and gas to liftthis from property. You did and we
are, and that's okay. That'snot a negative thing. The crisis,
the existential crisis being presented from someof these things, is unfortunate. Some
(14:35):
kids have taken it literally. Wewon't exist in ten or twenty years as
humans, and this is not agood narrative. There's work to do,
but it's not existential. So again, the challenge becomes more than a black
and white dialogue. Either you hateoil and gas or you don't. That's
not the issue here. Oil andgas and coal or actually poor things for
(15:00):
the world and have been and willbe. We got to clean up the
emissions from them, help slow andhopefully level out climate change through atmospheric emissions.
We also got to make sure thatthey and other forms of energy protect
the water and the land and theair. When you look at optionality,
and they've written a lot about this, there aren't any options for energy that
(15:22):
are clean in the sense of whatwe think everything. I'm a geologist,
I don't mind things coming from theearth, but everything that goes into a
solar panel or a wind turbine ora battery is mined from the earth.
All the metals and all the rareof elements and things, and then we
manufacture those and unfortunately they wear outlike everything. Wind turbine blades were out,
(15:45):
and the motors were We're out.The solar panels get scratched and wear
out. The batteries were out,as we all know, and we dump
them in landfills. We're not reasonusing and recycling them. It's too expensive,
so we dumped it all in landfilland we do it again. So
when you do something like you mindand make and use and dump over and
over, it's not renewable. Sothis is a great, I think,
fallacy that we've continued to propagate.There's renewable energy, there isn't. There's
(16:10):
nothing that to collect the Earth's energy, whether it's the sun and the wind,
or waves and tides, or biomassor oil or gas or coal or
uranium, me thorium, whatever itis we're using to create energy, none
of it's renewable. So we gotto get our heads around that thought and
then and that's okay. It's notan end of the world thought. It's
one that says, each one hasimpacts. How are we going to clean
(16:32):
up those impacts as we scale themto meet the world's demand for energy,
and again it's very doable. That'sexcitingly doable. I would encourage young people
who are excited by this, whetherthey're in science and engineering, or policy
or law or business. There's somuch opportunity in this space. It's remarkable.
So get into it, you know, roll your sleeves up and become
part of the solution and you'll havea remarkable career. You know. I'm
(16:55):
glad you also said that because aswe start wherever this transition looks like,
and it's certainly going to be dynamic, there's a lot of things happening here,
a lot of moving parts. Butthere's also in your show Switch Energy
Alliance, which is your You createdthis nonprofit and your chairman of the board
and founder of it. It actuallyis part well. Energy Switch is part
(17:19):
of documentaries that you and your directorHarry Lynch co produced together, and that's
designed to go to schools and boardrooms globally to help inform and educate.
But you also have created something thatI'm very impressed with. You're the host
of the Energy Switch. It's anenergy and climate talk show appearing in over
two hundred stations. This is impressivebecause it's you know, very new speak
(17:42):
today. You break it down ina way we can understand. We don't
need another highly technical show that noone understands. And so comparing for the
show, I was able to listento the majority of your shows and I
impressed with First of all, it'stop quality, so kudos to you.
It's great. It also really hitswhere people need to hear. So I
(18:03):
want to drill down into a fewbecause it's not just that you also have
you're also on the radio as well. Let's start with a couple of what
created you to want to do theEnergy Switch Alliance. It's a nonprofit that
you Yeah, Harry is a brilliantguy, filmmaker, documented filmmaker across the
space. He's made things on mentalhealth and he has a Friday night on
(18:26):
PBS on classical music and all sortsof net called Now Hear This. I
met Harry fifteen years ago we startedmaking the first film Switch feature Link.
We went to eleven countries just toshow people what energy looks like in the
world, the pros and cons.It was really the first film on energy.
Transition if you will, came outin twenty twelve, and then we
got back together years later, Isaid, Harry, we missed half the
(18:48):
world. Let's go look at thosewho don't have much. And we made
Switch on our second feature, LeakFilm, and in doing that form of
a one C three called the SwitchEnergy Alliance. So that's the company,
if you will, into which allthis energy education sits mostly film based.
We have a platform for high schoolscalled SWITCH Classroom. It provides the energy
(19:11):
component of AP environmental sciences nationwide thatthose teachers who want to use it,
it's free to them and it's supplemental. We have a Teacher Advisory Council.
AP scores go up. It's CollegeBoard certified, but it's supplemental and free.
Wonderful stuff. We've got a filmand museums, etc. So a
lot of and things we do incampuses, a case competition for energy poverty
(19:33):
internationally, a lot of any thingsgoing on. But one of the areas
we wanted to try to access wasthe educated public who wants to learn a
little bit more right. And sothe PBS audience is an educated public,
for sure. They lean a littleleft in the aggregate. They're all over
the board and in the aggregate alittle left to center. That's fine.
So we created this talk show calledEnergy Switch. I'm the host of two
(19:56):
guests, and so there's an underlyingtheme. The two guests we invite don't
agree on everything, but they're veryhigh level people, and we talk about
We'll talk for an hour and ahalf and we edit it down to twenty
five minutes, so it's very digestible, and you hear civil dialogue. You
hear critical thinking and civil dialogue aroundbig issues of people, and all of
a sudden, the audience is saying, hey, there's not a believer in
(20:18):
denier here. These are real issues. And as host, I don't say
much unless I need to bring themback onto the range, and you know,
if we can get too far afieldwith data, but let those folks
visit it. And it's really powerfulwhen you start to see that kind of
discussion going on. Very good,doctor Tinker. Let's take a quick break,
because when we return from break,I want to drill down in two
(20:40):
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us two ten two four oh sevenone eight eight Again that's two ten two
four h seventy one eighty eight andreacculus listening to an old patriot to show.
(21:25):
My guest today is doctor Scott Tinker, Professor, University of Texas in
Austin. Doctor Tinker, your showEnergy Switch, weren't mean introduced it into
this way? You had part onein two on the discussion of more nuclear
power. Nuclear power is not reallytalked about a lot as an option.
In many ways. We hear newerbeing such a solar win and more sexier.
(21:48):
Is hydrogen coming on if you willthe topics. But good old nuclear
power has been around for quite sometime, and when people think about nuclear
power they kind of get a reallybad quick image of Chernobyl or Fukushima,
right, But that's not really thecase. So I want you to set
up your show that you had withtwo guests who came across a kind of
(22:11):
dueling, and to me it gota little interesting with Michael Schellenberger, who's
been a guest on the show.But let's start with your two guests.
Let's start with that and start withthe topic at first. Was your point?
What was you what were you tryingto accomplish on the show. So
Argian, Markajanni and Michael Schellenberger cameon, and we wanted to have an
(22:34):
open dialogue at a high level aboutnuclear and the pros and cons. You
know, do we need more ornot globally And that's the context we usually
ask a simple question like that,which sets up the show we have.
Subsequently, season two has come out. Now we've just filmed season three.
We do more on nuclear and differentways. But they were are Jon is
(22:55):
a physicist, he's a very smartguy and understands nuclear power and nuclear weapons.
Yeah yeah, yeah, but hewas kind of against nuclear and that
was the great irony. Michael Sellienbergerwas pro nuclear and Michael is a very
smart guy to a journalist and agood friend, and he's written books and
things and etc. So yeah,they had a wonderful discussion. I think
(23:18):
our June's in the end of theday, biggest concern was just timeframes.
Can you can you build it fastenough? Can you scale it? Are
we gonna are we gonna? Isgonna be allowed to happen? Even and
and Michael was arguing to carry forwardwith the current technologies, light water reactors,
the larger ones, gigawatt scale,so they weren't needn't you know.
(23:41):
There were some testy parts in there, but they didn't overall disagree completely.
Neither one was saying nuclear is goingto kill the world. They were just
really more practical about can you addressclimate change without nuclear? Probably not,
But you can't build nuclear fast enough. So why I go down the nuclear
path? Well, you can buildsome and some places. China is building
(24:04):
a lot of nuclear right now andmaybe India is going to follow, and
that's very different from the US.So we have to go again, Kim,
to our global perspective about these thingsand not yet too parochial. So
it's a great show. The pointhere, though, I think, is
we try to model civil dialogue,and yes, we can disagree and disagree
over data and economics and physics andother kinds of things. But we don't
(24:27):
start calling one another names or cancelingone another off of whole platforms because we
disagree, you know. And thisis the I think, this is what
our political leaders and our young peoplein our in our faculty and others need
to really again begin to encourage,is civil dialogue and critical thinking around these
issues. And we don't have toagree on everything. It doesn't mean you're
(24:49):
good and I'm bad, you know, or I'm right and you're wrong.
Usually there's combinations of all those things. And you know, it's a discussion,
that's real, that's so right.Has the discussion has really gotten to
a fever pitch, if you will, that is just not doing anyone any
good. When we come back frombreak, I want to drill down a
little bit more because I want youto explain to the listeners why nuclear is
(25:11):
so popular according to Michael Schellenberger,and what seems to be the problem.
I think again, when most peoplethink about nuclear, they really just kind
of get a quick snapshot of Chernobyland they turn away from it. But
there are some good reasons to lookat nuclear, and I want to talk
about the future of nuclear as well. Let's take a sure Frank, you're
an old count trader show, We'llbe right back. Are you a business
(25:33):
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your one stop shop for growing yourbusiness. Pick up the phone today and
call two ten, two four ohseven one eight eight again two ten,
two four h seventy one eighty eight. We're back. You're listening to an
old patent radio show, Doctor Tinker. Before the break, we were talking
(27:29):
about your show specifically, and oneof the shows you had was discussing nuclear
power. You had part one,part two. But I want to back
up just a little bit because alot of listeners when they hear nuclear power,
I think they cringe. I thinkthey are afraid of it. I
don't think they're very familiar with it. Is this a solution for the future
because nuclear doesn't provide any real waste? So what is the problem with nuclear
(27:52):
in the way of wasting the mean, I mean error admissions and things.
Is it's more promising, But yetit seems to be a lot more scarier
for people when you break that downfor us that we understand why nuclear power
could be a solution to energy transitionin the future. Yeah, nuclear suffers
from an image problem for sure,nuclear and you think, oh, no
(28:12):
radioactivity, etc. And that's veryprevalent in Europe still. Now the promising
thing here is young people today.I'm old, I was trained to be
scared of nuclear power, are nuclearenergy, But young people today have not
been trained that way, and they'vebeen trained to be scared of climate change,
but they're not scared of nuclear Soand that's good. What nuclear power,
(28:37):
Let's separate it from nuclear weapons.Okay, nuclear weapons are a different
technology and require different weapons grade radioactivestuff plutonium that's really high level. So
nuclear power uses just the heat generatedfrom a radioactive reaction to boil water and
make steam and turn a generator,you know, and and create electricity and
(29:02):
make power. Same thing that burningcoal or burning gas or it's just heat.
Different source of heat, boil water, make steam during a driven run
a generator. Now, nuclear electricityactually on a per kilowat hour basis,
has been the safest of all formsof electric generation. Period far and away.
Actually it's the safest on a kilowatthour basis very dense, which means
(29:25):
that reactor is running ninety seven percentof the time. The source of heat
is very dense, so doesn't takemuch urin even to make a whole lot
of heat compared to other things includingnatural gas and coal and certainly the solar
and wind, which is very lowdensity, so a big advantage there no
emissions at the site, you dohave the radioactive waste that is produced,
(29:48):
and you've got to manage that well. More modern reactors are using a lot
of the heat and that waste beforethey finally take it off for ultimate disposal,
and and you got a man it'sthat, but it's not weapons great.
So if you're passionate about climate changeand its impacts, you also better
be pretty passionate pro nuclear because thatis the scalable source of non emissions energy
(30:15):
that can go globally today, andright now they're mostly big kim gigawatt that's
a thousand megawatts. That's a lot. A big wind turban is about two
megawatts, so this would be athousand of those, and the wind only
gets captured about a third of thetime. That's called a capacity factor,
(30:36):
where nuclear's almost one hundred percent,So thousands of turbans wind turbans to be
one nuclear reactor. They just kindof think of that scale. But there's
also smaller modular reactors, so we'vehad them forever on aircraft carriers and submarines.
Those are nuclear powered vessels that goaround the ocean. They float and
move. Smaller ones could be deployedtoday in local areas fifty megawatt that kind
(31:00):
of scale. The ones that areprevalent new scale and terra power, and
there are others, but those arekind of the two leaders. They propose
to bury them in the earth,so in a canister no bigger than this
room really in many ways a littlebit bigger and down in the earth and
very well protected, so you coulddistribute them. You could start to see
them in Africa and Latin American partsof the world that don't have much energy
(31:23):
today as a very stable source ofenergy and complementing solar and wind. I
think what I'd like to communicate hereis nuclear has a very strong role to
play. It's not the only role, but we've got to stop demonizing one
and competing it against another. Thesethings, they all have roles to play,
they all have pros and cons andchallenges. Nothing's perfect. But let's
(31:45):
work on the complementary aspects of them, and I think we'll get a lot
farther to the listener who is saying, Okay, so, doctor Tinker,
you told me, you said thatnuclear power is a solution. We're not
talking about mass destruction weapon and wewere talking about energy sources and there are
some solutions out there in your opinion, are we moving in this direction versus
(32:09):
others you know? Are okay?So yeah, we being the world again,
not Europe except for France and maybePoland and Romania, maybe a couple
other Eastern European and the US ispretty slow on it. But the world
is China is building fifty new reactorstoday, of course, and have another
(32:30):
These are big ones, another hundredon the books. We're starting to see
movement in other big, high population, low income nations like India, Bangladesh
and others that are starting to talkabout nuclear as part of their portfolio for
affordable, low emissions to no emissionsdense energy. So the world is moving
(32:50):
this way. Needs to The USand Western Europe need to kind of get
going to keep up, otherwise weget left behind. Why do you think
this is slow walking here in theUnited States as far as us looking at
it. Is there a specific reasonwhy you feel that we're just not really
moving towards it. Well, it'sa big technological process, and some people
(33:13):
don't like big industrial technology complexes.They're just scared of those. Some have
been again they're scared of nuclear,the word nuclear and nuclear waste. What
do we do with it? Howdo we manage it? So that's very
real. Some of it's just proliferatingpropaganda. You know, you can use
whatever word you want. Misinformation,disinformation, you bad information, all wrong.
(33:38):
Yeah, there's a lot of supportstill for some groups that are anti
nuclear. Now that's it. It'sinteresting. Some of the bigger NGOs are
actually pro nuclear. The ones thatare truly passionate about addressing emissions and climate
change are pro nuclear. So it'screating these interesting groups that are working together.
I'll be fascinating to see how thatplays out. But it's a lot
(34:00):
further along than it was ten,five, ten, even fifteen years ago.
That range. It's really coming intothe limelight now as part of the
solution. Well, hopefully as welook at energy reform and trying to get
something past, so energy companies asa whole can make decisions in the creature
(34:20):
that might be a little more solidthan what they are right now. If
it's past, maybe this might bea solution for us as well. We
have one last segment of the showwhen we return from break, and I
want to really drill down into thegeo political scene. You had to show
it on Energy Switch as well thattalked about this, and I want to
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(36:14):
You're listening to a little Petrego show. My guest today is doctor Scott
Tinker, Doctor Tinker. Before thebreak, we were talking about your TV
series that is airing on a lotof markets and PPS and kudus to them
for taking this topic on. AndI do want to acknowledge you said it
typically tends to be a little leftleaning their viewership, whereas talk radio is
a little more right leaning. Idon't probably get nearly as many emails path
to emails as you probably do.But that being said, I love your
(36:37):
series Energy Switch. Everyone should goand get informed. You're on your third,
you're on your second series. Youkeeped your third from what I'm hearing,
so it's great. This needs tocontinue and hopefully more stations pick you
up and see the benefit of educatingand informing the masses. And I'm not
just talking about the United States,because this is a global discussion, if
you will, but I want totalk about one that's labeled one of your
series, your Energy Switch series onthe new gu Flit of Energy. Daniel
(37:00):
Jurgen is the vice chair of SMPGlobal. We have them on the show,
not him specifically, one of histeam last week and I've interviewed him
personally. Well, you also intervieweddoctor Ernest Moonies. I was I found
that show very interesting as well,because this whole discussion is changing, and
it really changes by who gets electedinto different countries here in the United States.
(37:20):
So I want you to kind ofgo over what did you pull out
from that show? What was themost important things pertaining to the geopolitical landscape
Evie will with different countries. Italmost seems as though countries have kind of
gotten into a competitive state deviewill insome ways when we talk about energy and
some are you coming into solar andwin and that's their favorite and they're going
to stick with it. Others areinvestigating different things. So what is the
(37:42):
geopolitical landscape look like? Yeah,it's politics, so it's all over the
board. Dan Jurgen is a goodfriend, so as are any money is
there. They've been good friends along time, very smart people and have
seen the world. So you see, I think the fundamental piece here is
unchanged, but more vocal now.Energy security drives every political leader in the
world secure energy for its nation forvarious reasons. Some do well with it
(38:05):
and others use it as a weapon, but it drives. Climate change has
been very front and center. Butthe minute Ukraine happened and mister Putin went
in there. All the sudden,energy security was on everyone's lips again from
Europe, so went for example,in Germany, when Russia cut off the
natural gas pipeline, Germany went backto coal. So coal became more important
than climate in Germany because they neededto secure electricity generation. So this is
(38:28):
this is a fundamental geopolitical driver.The other one that's very important, and
I write about a rote A pieceand fortune last fall, energy optionality.
It's really important to have a portfolioof energy options if you can, within
your toolkit, because no single energydoes at all. And if we start
to eliminate options politically, let's saywe cut off gas hookups or we mandate
(38:50):
electric vehicles, only all of asudden you've eliminated these other options and markets
respond very poorly. They always haveand they always will because there's nothing perfect,
and so we an ev is goodfor some things, but not for
all things. Gas hookups are greatfor some things, but not for all
things. Electricity is useful as well. So optionality and this is Scott talking
someone was in that show, butbroader than that is so critical in the
(39:13):
energy world. And I think ourpolitical leaders tend to get lost with that
as they push their favorite thing downto their voters who are demanding it,
and as we talked about earlier,voters demand it, but it doesn't mean
they understand what they're asking for.You know, they have a concept,
but it doesn't mean they understand allthe ramifications of that. And we're all
smart people. I don't talk downto any human being on this show or
anywhere else. We all get it. It's just that we don't understand all
(39:35):
the complex relationships because it's really soa good and a good intention has these
unintended consequences later and we go,oops, how did that happen? So
you gotta start to thinking out front. Well, and another thing though on
the show and how it was youplayed out, is so we saw what
happened with Europe and they're really kindof digging into solar and win. How
(40:00):
do you feel the United States inour leadership and where we're heading towards?
Are we on the right path?Because I want to switch gears and talk
about electric vehicles and e because weare on a path of net zero.
There's a lot up on the tablecontaining but I don't see the how we
get there. YEA infrastructure and Idon't see us being able to do that,
but I could be wrong. Nowzero is a it's a big challenge.
(40:22):
It's kind of these neat words andthe goal, but I think it
sets up systems that may have badconsequences. A net fifty maybe your net
thirty. Why net zero? Justreducing emissions would be a good overarching and
it's interesting. So I like netzero poverty myself. I'd like to lift
the world out of poverty. Andif we do that, we'll have a
better chance of going towards net zeromissions because fewer people will be burning dumb
(40:43):
and hay inside their homes. IfI come back here, we each of
our US states are kind of likeEuropean countries. California, Texas, New
York, Florida are as big asEuropean countries, so a federal policy here
is a very different thing. Somestates have gone far down the road of
mans California, cutting off gas andmandating EVSE. Others are keeping broader portfolios.
(41:05):
And the interesting thing about all thatkim is is there are only eleven
states in the country the US.Eleven United States that produce more energy than
they consume. Thirty nine states areconsumers, and they're replying on everybody else
to send them their electricity and theirfuels and their stuff. So it's easier
to be so called green when youask everybody else to make your stuff.
(41:27):
But that doesn't work for the climate, and it really doesn't work for the
environment. We all have to beginto acknowledge that this has impacts and just
because it's over there doesn't mean it'snot impacting the environment. And that's a
very important concept. I think wedo get it. I think we do
understand that. Well, if wehave one world that we live on,
live in, and if Russia isblowing and going over here or any other
(41:51):
countries, I shouldn't just called outa country. What difference does it make.
We all live on one planet.If we have this problem, we
need to come up with a solution. And then it just makes everybody throw
up their hands and say, well, wait a minute, do we even
have a problem. Obviously we wantto be greener, we want to be
environmentalists. Obviously we want to tryto do things differently and better. But
some countries are coming along, somecountries aren't, and we're one of them.
(42:15):
That is I think taking a leadingstand on that we want to be
part of whatever energy solutions wait forus in the future. Do you feel
I'm not trying to put you onthe spot, but I just want for
you to tell me. Do youthink that we have a real sustainable energy
plan currently? I mean, alot of you said you're going to have
an upcoming show talking about electric vehicles, and again, I think it's great,
(42:38):
and I think a few privileged peoplewill be able to drive these,
But I don't know how we getthe masses of the black words. Tell
me, are we are? We? Almost there? No? No,
Well, specific dvs are pros andcons. You know, the smaller vehicles
electrify them. That's fine, youdon't have to drive that far. And
the fuel a week, which isa battery, isn't as much proportionately,
as the vehicles get bigger and moreand more, the weight becomes the battery,
(43:00):
and so you're pulling around the batteryand batteries are not efficient fuel.
The motor is very efficient, theelectric motor, but the battery itself is
not deficient. You've got a cellphone, you know how often you charge
it? So, yeah, thesethings require a tremendous amount of earth materials,
heavyweight, and so as you getinto bigger vehicles, combustion engines still
are good fuel cells, hydrogen,compressed natural gas, etc. Optionality different
(43:23):
options. So when our government startsto federal land states say you can only
do this, is when they've kindof lost the thread. They've lost the
thread, and you know, it'sstarting to pander to a voter base on
all sides. By the way,this isn't one political aisle or the other.
Then the government needs to keep openthese options and then allow markets to
compete to do these things. TheUS it's it's our energy policy is and
(43:46):
then people talk about it, butwho would write it, you know which
side? And are they going toimpose it on states and states? Texas
is different from Washington State, Floridais different from New York, etc.
So I don't think it's as badas people say, as long we don't
try to impose pick winners, ifyou will, energy winners in different sectors
transportation, residential, commercial, industrial, don't pick winners to set these broader
(44:10):
targets. Affordable, reliable, lowemissions, don't hurt the water, the
land, of the air. Ifyou can do these things, we're moving
in a good direction. Then letthe markets compete and bring us at scale
the kinds of things we need there. Well, Doctor Tinker, I want
to thank you for joining me todayon a new Old Patch radio show.
The links to your Energy Switch show, along with all of the stuff that
you've done. Your Techex talk willalso be on there as well. I
(44:34):
do encourage our listeners to look youup. You have a lot of great
information, break it down very easy. If they want to get informed,
you got to start by clicking outa button, folks and listening to what
doctor tinkers, some of his lecturesand some of his shows. Thank you
again for joining me on today's innOld Patch radio show. It's been my
pleasure. Thanks for doing it.In the oil Patch is where together we
explore topics that affect us all inoil gas business and in your community.
(44:58):
Every week, your host Kim Blatovisit with the movers and shakers in this
fast paced industry. You'll hear fromindustry experts, elected officials, and many
more right here on in the oilPatch
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