July 11, 2023 • 31 mins
Dana is joined by the Tudor historian—and Joint Chief Curator of Historic Royal Palaces—Tracy Borman to discuss her latest book, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I, and how two of British history's most famous women created their own legacies.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hello. I am so delighted to be joined today by
the brilliant historian and author Tracy Borman. She's written so
many both novels and brilliant works of history, including Elizabeth's Women,
which I would say is like the seminal work on
the Court of Elizabeth I realizing now that might be
(00:31):
incorrect word choice, but has written brilliantly all about the tutors,
and her latest book is Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth, the first,
I believe, the first, if I'm correct, dual biography of
the two women.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Yes, which is extraordinary because they're two of the best
known women in history, and yet their stories have never
been told together. And I have wanted to ever since
writing Elizabeth's Women, actually because Anne Bolyn could only have
a chapter of that book, there were fifty other women
who I wrote about, and I always wanted to go
(01:04):
back because I found out enough to really intrigue me
and think, you know what, there's more of a story here.
So it's been an absolute joy, just very forensically looking
at their dual history.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I would love to get started with Anne Bolin, who
is one of the most popular figures in the popular
imagination of the Tudor court. I think for good reason.
Why do you think she is such an intriguing figure
for so many years?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, and wouldn't Henry the eighth have hated that that
we're still talking about her.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
More than the other five wives.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I think a lot has to do with the fact
that Anne seems to us actually strikingly modern. She was
a woman who wasn't content just to conform to the
stereotype of a Tudor woman, who was very much a
second class citizen, submissive to the men in her family.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Whereas Anne arrives like a rocket on.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
The English scene from France, and she's full of ideas
about female power and she wants to put them into effect.
So and I love the fact, as I think many
people do that you know, she stood up to Henry
the eighth and she gave as good as she got,
but ultimately it was it was sort of her undoing
that and of course her failure, as Henry saw it,
(02:25):
to give him a son. But of course, as well
as being modern, is also incredibly dramatic and ultimately tragic,
and I think that that holds a kind of timeless appeal.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I've seen people, historians sort of over the centuries, frame
her as a Protestant martyr, or a complete victim, or
a schemer, you know, with some nefarious aims. How would
do you characterize her?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Probably a combination of those things. I'm not one hundred
percent convinced that she was gunning for the throne from
the start, and that's why she held Henry at bay.
I think she probably wasn't at all sure about what
she was getting into. I think what she was sure
about was not just wanting to be a mistress, because
(03:13):
she'd seen how quickly Henry discarded those. Her own sister
Mary had been one of them, so she was holding
out for something more. But I don't really buy into
the idea that she was scheming from the start to
kind of ensnare Henry so that he would make her
his queen. I think perhaps that idea was more to
(03:36):
do with her family and her ambitious father and brother.
But for Anne, I think she's more of an enigma,
and that's only increased by the fact that we have
all of Henry's love letters to her. But none of
Anne's replies to him, So what was Anne feeling? I think,
(03:56):
whether you know, you do believe that she was scheming
for the throne. She was a very skilled political operator.
She was, I believe, a genuine religious reformer. She had
ideas that she really wanted to put into effect on
social reform as well as religious reform. So she was
so far ahead of her time, and I think she's
(04:17):
really to be admired for that.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
How much agency do you ascribe to Anne as opposed
to the powerful men in her life, her father, brother, uncle.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I think she had an unusual degree of agency, and
I think a comparison would be useful here with another
of the Six wives, Katherine Howard, who was also, like Anne,
accused and condemned for adultery, and in Catherine's case, I
think she was guilty. But then I think we've reappraised
Catherine in recent years rightly so, because how much agency
(04:51):
did she have in any of those relationships with the
men in her life? Her music tutor, She was just
thirteen when some kind of relationship happened there, So I
think Catherine didn't have a great deal of power over
her own destiny. But I think Anne much more so.
From her early years she was described as being very
(05:11):
toward or very clever and opinionated, and yeah, she had
big ideas and the vision to carry them through. And
she made Henry the eighth sit up and listen, and
you know she can do that, then she's got a
lot of agency.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I think, do you believe then that she was sort
of innocent of the adultery charges presented against her?
Speaker 4 (05:34):
One hundred percent?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I think if you look at the various charges, Anne
wasn't even in the same place as her accused lovers
on nearly all of them, and it just doesn't fit
with what we know of Anne Bolyn. Here is not
a woman who is lacking in self control. She's held
Henry at bay for seven years and it just doesn't
(05:58):
add up to me. I think her only, if you
can call it, that, is not giving Henry a son.
If she had, there's no way he'd have executed her,
or had the marriage and olds, she would have been
protected for life.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
It's one of those things where history could have veered
so so much based on just that one little accent
of genetics.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
It could and of course the irony is, as we've
been discussing, she has all of this sort of agency,
and she's got this great brain, but ultimately she's judged
by her body and her body's failure to produce that
male air, and really, in Henry's eyes, nothing else matters.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well, speaking of airs, the one child she does provide
is Elizabeth, who, of course Henry could have had no knowledge,
would have reigned in one of the most brilliant periods
for English history. What was your thought process in doing
this dual biography when Elizabeth never met her mother?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yeah, well, I mean Elizabeth was only in Anne's life
all the other way around, actually for two years and
eight months, so it was a very brief relationship. And
actually at the age of three months only, Elizabeth was
removed from Anne and, according to royal traditions, set up
in her own household. And even though Anne visited when
(07:24):
she could, those occasions were rare because the pressure was
on her to of course have a son, so she
was kept at court a lot of the time, but
it wasn't a case of out of sight, out of mind,
and sent regular gifts to Elizabeth. I think she inspired
Elizabeth's later love of fashion because she was always sending
these gorgeous made to measure dresses and velvet caps. But
(07:47):
the influence of Anne on Elizabeth was much more profound
than that. And I think Elizabeth was every bit, if
not more so, as intelligent as her mother. She grew
up curious about her, clearly, and she grew up to
be fascinated by Anne Berlin. And the more she found out,
I think the more Elizabeth got a sense that Anne
(08:09):
had been ill served by her father's justice, if you
can even call it that. I love that quote by
Anne on the scaffold when she said, you know, I
require any person, if they should meddle in my cause,
that they shall judge the best or words to that effect.
And I think really Elizabeth spent her life meddling in
(08:32):
her mother's cause, and she did judge the best. She
came to the right conclusion that her mother had been terribly,
terribly wronged, and that was a wrong that Elizabeth wanted
to put right. So she was her mother's daughter through
and through.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
One thing that you can connect the lines between Elizabeth
and her mother are the ability that Elizabeth had throughout
her life, even though she famously never married, that you
can continue to entertain suitors to her advantage.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
She did.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Do you draw that line from her to her mother.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
I do absolutely, and that's something I really explore in
the book, in that both mother and daughter played the
game of courtly love, and they were both great flirts. Actually,
they loved mail company, and they love to keep themselves
just out of reach. But Elizabeth had learned from her
mother's example, and she'd learned that she needed to keep
(09:26):
the boundaries very strict, indeed, and allow.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
No room for doubt.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
There might be gossip, but it had to be unfounded gossip.
So Elizabeth was very strict in upholding the etiquette and
the morality of her court. It's no accident that Elizabeth's
court was described as being at once both gay, decent,
(09:53):
and superb. And that word decent was quite deliberate.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
You know.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
She might be this great flirt like her, but she
knew very well what had happened to her mother, and
she was going to draw those boundaries very very clearly.
So I do believe Elizabeth lived and died the Virgin Queen.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
As you know, several historians I think also like to
speculate about her relationship with her favorite Lord Darnley now
Flord to Jesus Dudley, pardon me, haven't had my coffee
an now, I know, but I think I'm with you
that it would be too much of a risk for
too high a position.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And I think a really telling piece of evidence came
in fifteen sixty two. So Elizabeth had been queen for
four years when she almost died. She contracted smallpox, one
of the most dangerous diseases of the age. And she
was at Hampton Court, where I work. This is not
just so that I can name drop working Hampton called
this little story.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
But she believed she.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Was on her deathbed, and she summoned her confessor priest,
and she avowed that nothing had ever passed between her
and Robert Dudley. And you know, cynical listeners might say, yeah, yeah,
it's easy to say those things, not in this god
fearing age where you wouldn't tell a lie on your
(11:16):
deathbed because you would think you were going to hell
for eternity.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
So you know, I do believe Elizabeth spoke the truth.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
And also you know, as she said, I will have
but one mistress here and no master. She had fought
for that throne, she had seen her mother's example. You
can't blame her for just not going there, really.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
And I also don't blame her. Childbirth was a very
scary prospect at that time. Even the thought of an
accident or even a pregnancy in marriage, would you're still
a risk?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Oh my goodness. I mean I would not have wanted
to have gone there myself. It must have been terrifying.
And there's no wonder there were all these weird and
wonderful rituals around her, all these superstitious kind of practices,
because people were just clutching at straws. What's going to
help me, you know when it comes to giving birth,
(12:10):
And Elizabeth was surrounded by these fairly negative examples. You know,
she would have learned about her mother's miscarriages for a start,
and then Jane Seymour, she died shortly after giving birth
to Elizabeth's baby brother. Her sister Mary had the phantom pregnancies,
and then you know, the list goes on and on.
(12:30):
There were many ill fated pregnancies and births in Elizabeth's life,
So I think genuinely she was terrified at the prospect
of giving birth, and she once became quite hysterical when
pushed on the matter of her marriage. So it ran deep,
it was more than just politics. Her decision not to marry.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Absolutely, you mentioned Elizabeth's love of fashion coming from Anne.
How else do you think Anne in ruined Elizabeth from
beyond the grave.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
So I think one of the biggest ways was in religion.
So Anne was, as I mentioned, a genuine reformer. This
is a woman who took risks for her faith. She
was secretly importing band religious texts before she became queen,
and she knew that she could get arrested for heresy.
(13:23):
But she really believed that the church needed to be reformed. Now,
she wasn't what we would call a Protestant, or at
least not then, because she wanted reform from within. So
it wasn't that she wanted to end the Catholic Church.
But these reformist ideas would later become Protestantism, and certainly
(13:43):
that's the religion that was made official by her daughter, Elizabeth.
So I think you can trace the line through of
Anne's religious influence on Elizabeth all the way almost from birth.
So Anne appointed her chaplain Matthew Park to visit Elizabeth
as an infant and preach to her, preach sermons to
(14:05):
this tiny princess and Elizabeth made Parker her first Archbishop
of Canterbury. So I think that just goes to show
the influence that Anne had.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Elizabeth, I think is rightfully celebrated as one of the
most famous and celebrated, you know, queens of England. But
what would you say her weakness as were I feel
like this has become quite a job interview.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
I know, let's think of a weakness that can be
turned into a strength. You know, Oh, I'm a perfectionist
to that thing. I think she probably was. She did
have incredible strengths and I always vote for Elizabeth as
our greatest ever monic in British history. But I think,
you know, it's hard to call it a weakness. But
(14:50):
perhaps there was a certain degree of hesitation procrastination sometimes
in Elizabeth. She was quite fearful about making decisions sometimes,
but quite often that was the right thing to do.
She didn't like to be pushed into decision making, and
often things became clearer while she waited. And what she
(15:11):
did very cleverly, you see, I'm turning into a positive here.
But what she did very cleverly was to play her
male courtiers at their own game and say, look, you know,
I'm just a woman. I can't make a decision. You're
going to have to wait, and that really brought her time.
I think she wasn't particularly nice to her ladies, some
(15:32):
of her ladies, and I think that's another way in
which she took after her mother, because Anne Boleyn had
been quite cruel to some of her ladies and in
particular to her stepdaughter, the Princess Mary. And Elizabeth could
be quite vicious towards her ladies. You sense a bitterness
creeping in as her reign goes on and Elizabeth has
(15:55):
sacrificed her personal desires for her country, and when she
sees her lady is not doing the same, I think
she does get quite jealous, particularly when they start to
go after Elizabeth's own favorites, like Robert Dudley or the
Earl of Essex.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Then she really doesn't like that.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And there's one occasion when Elizabeth actually stabs one of
her ladies in the back of the hand with a
fork because she hasn't quite got it right when serving
Elizabeth at one of her meals. And I think Elizabeth
was in such a fury, so she could be Yeah,
she could be very, very vicious, just like Anne.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
You know, I always find it a little strange because
these are such powerful women, Elizabeth in particular. Obviously, people
sometimes I just think throw the word feminist, which always
struck me as a little anachronistic.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
What do you think it's so anachronistic. And Elizabeth herself,
even if the term had been around and she'd understood it,
she would never have recognized herself as a feminist because
actually she and I think to a lesser extent, Anne
saw herself as an.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Exception to the rule.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
It wasn't that she was championing equal rights for women.
She believed, you know, that women should have that place
of you know, inferiority in society. But she thought that
she was the exception that proved the rule. But when
you look at her speeches, she's almost poking fun at
her sex and saying, you know, well, don't compliment me
(17:24):
on my ability to speak many languages.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
You can't, you know, it's no wonder that a woman
can talk so much.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And she's always kind of coming out with things like
this that actually a slightly critical or very critical of
the female sex. But she has great confidence in herself,
and I think the same was true of Anne. You
can't really say that either woman was really trying to
change women's lot in society. Probably when we're talking of feminism,
(17:53):
somebody who deserves that title more is the fourteenth century
writer Christine de Pisa, and Anne Bolynn was introduced to
Christine's works while she was in France, and Christine is
much more about Hey, you know, women are as intelligent
as men, if not more so. They deserve equality in society.
(18:14):
Neither Anne nor Elizabeth were really saying that.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I don't think, you know, Elizabeth is one of those
historical figures. I feel like in the United States, it's
like Abraham Lincoln, the figure that's written about constantly. Was
there a new story or aspect of Elizabeth's personality that
you think people haven't talked enough about.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yeah, well, I think just her whole relationship with her
mother has not been explored enough until now, and I'm
pleased it hadn't because it gave me the chance to
do so. But I think you do see a more
tender side to Elizabeth and a more vulnerable side as
well when you look at her relationship with her mother.
On the tender side, she surrounds herself from mementos of
(19:00):
her late mother quite discreet ones because she knows Anne
is still controversial. And probably the most discreet memento is
that famous Locket ring. It's known as the Checkers ring
because it's named after our Prime Minister's country house, Checkers,
where the ring is now housed, and it opens up
to reveal a portrait of Anne Boleyn almost certainly, and
(19:24):
the other portrait is of Elizabeth. But when it's closed,
it just looks like a ring with Elizabeth's initials on it.
So that was quite a private memento. But also there
is the vulnerability, and I think Elizabeth, as well as
suffering from a terror of childbirth of marriage, she was
(19:45):
also because of that childhood trauma of losing her mother.
She was prone to fainting fits, and she had lots
of stomach complaints, and she was often gripped by an
inexplicable dress, and I think her childhood experiences had a
lot to do with that, and also the fact that
she tended to cling very tightly to those around her,
(20:10):
and in particular the women at court. If they got
close to her, they were almost like replacement mother figures.
And I think it's thanks to losing Anne at such
a young and quite vulnerable age. Really, you can see
Elizabeth just being quite intense with her relationships. And I'm
thinking of the likes of Blanche Parry, her childhood nurse,
(20:33):
and Katasky, her governess. They served Elizabeth for the rest
of their lives, and Elizabeth kept them so close and
was devastated when they died.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Because obviously she would have had a very tense relationship
with her order half sister Mary as well, even though
she did and obviously in the end give her the
next in line to the throne, annoying her, But what
was that relationship like. Obviously, because Anne had been so
to the young Mary.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Exactly, so Mary had every reason to despise Elizabeth. And
I think it's actually to Mary's credit that she felt
sorry for Elizabeth when Anne had been executed and Henry
didn't want to know Elizabeth. Mary is actually speaking up
for her younger sister, trying to get her father to
look kindly on Elizabeth. And actually it's not a one
(21:22):
dimensional relationship. You might think these two sisters are going
to hate each other from the start, they're the daughters
of rival mothers, but they don't. And this affection grows
up between them. Of course, Mary is much older, so
again she's almost like a maternal figure to her little
sister when Elizabeth is growing up. But what sets them
(21:44):
on a collision course is religion, because of course Mary
is very definitely Catholic and Elizabeth is Protestant. And when
Mary's queen, Elizabeth increasingly is seen as a threat, a
rival to the throne. And that's when it goes horribly wrong.
And that's when Elizabeth has a very disturbing echo of
(22:05):
her mother's fate, when she finds herself a prisoner in
the Tower of London under suspicion of rebelling against her
sister Mary.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
And I was going to say, I love the fact.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
That's perhaps the wrong phrase, but that you know, it's
a bit of psychological torture. Mary and her counsel keep
Elizabeth in the tower until the nineteenth of May fifteen
fifty four, so the nineteenth of May being the anniversary
of Anne's execution. They just want to ramp up the
terror a bit and make Elizabeth think you're going to
(22:40):
go the same way as your mother.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yes, oh my god, I would have been I would
have had a heart attack it's like, you don't even
need to execute her.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
She's yeah, She's just there.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
And Elizabeth, many years later, recalls that, and she recalls
her terror still and said that she thought about asking
Mary for the sword in the same way as her
mother had. So it was going through Elizabeth's mind over
and over. I'm going to be executed just like my mother.
She's kept in the same apartments that Anne Boleyn had
(23:08):
spent her final days. Could it have been more terrifying
for her? It's just extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And from Mary's perspective, I mean, people hate the other
woman who split up your parents marriage today, it must
have been horrific for young Mary growing up seeing a
ter I mean she must have hated Anne Boleyn.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Oh, she despised Anne Berlin absolutely and she You're absolutely right.
She had good reason to. And Anne was pretty despicable
towards Mary. I think because Anne felt insecure and she
felt Mary was a bit of a threat. She knew
that people looked to Mary as the rightful heir to
the throne and to her mother, Catherine is the true queen.
(23:48):
So that had a lot to do with Anne's treatment
of Mary. And yeah, Mary would never well she eventually
had to recognize her father's marriage and her own status
as illegitimate.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
But yeah, she put up a good fight to avoid that.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I want to shift gears slightly. You've written this brilliant
book that I absolutely love that I consult constantly called
Crown Incepter, which basically synthesizes. For those who haven't read it,
you should seek it out wherever you can find it.
The history of every British monarch, from William the Conqueror
to Elizabeth. The fact that you fit it all in
(24:28):
and made it a compelling page turner really is just extraordinary.
But I want to ask, out of all of the monarchs,
who do you think is the most underrated?
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
That is a good question, And do you know what,
I'm so pleased I wrote that book because I am
mainly at tuwed a historian. I have written about other periods,
but that really introduced me to new characters and new periods.
Underrated I would say, I mean one of those that
I've overlooked a lot is Henry the First. I think
(24:59):
out of say anything about Henry the First, but he
was the youngest son of William the Conqueror. He was
really the father of modern government. He introduced a lot
of the institutions and the systems of modern government. He
has the dubious claim of fathering more illegitimate children.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Than any other monarch. So there you go. So, Henry
the verse is one.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
But I would say probably my top underrated bonic is
James the Second. Now he was the one. He was
the brother of Charles the Second. He succeeded him, and
he only reigned for a very short time. And then
the so called Glorious Revolution was when basically Parliament invited
somebody else to take the throne because they couldn't stand James.
(25:43):
And ever since he's been portrayed as this disastrous, tyrannical
monarch who was very intolerant, who was going to insist
that everybody be a Catholic like him.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
It was so far from the truth.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Really, it was a tiny minority in Parliament who didn't
like having a Catholic monarch wanted to get rid of him.
But otherwise James was very popular and he was also
very tolerant. He might have been a Catholic, but he
believed in freedom of worship for all. Now I fell
into the trap of believing that he was a bad thing,
and jolly good that we got rid of him.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
But now I've researched him in more depth.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
I think poor old James actually, and no wonder the
Jacobites kept trying to bring back James and his descendants.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
I think I'd have been one of them. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
My understanding is that they got upset because he married
a Catholic woman too, So yeah, we can tolerate one.
But if you're having Catholic babies exactly disaster.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Yeah, and then she has a son and it's like,
oh no, we've got a long line of Catholics, let's
get rid.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
It's just brilliant how well you're able to cover so
much history and for noble blood for podcast listeners, and
do correct me if I'm wrong. Henry the First was
the one who lost his son in the way Ship disaster.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Correct, So we've covered that on the podcast, So for
listeners who want to put that in contact, sometimes you
get all the Henry is mixed up in your head.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Oh, it's so easily done.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
There are quite that The earlier Henry's I'm a bit
shaky honor or was before Crown and CEP. When we
get to Henry the Seventh I'm okay.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
You have a position as one of the joint Chief
curators of historic Royal Palaces.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
What does that entail? So I mean this is a
dream job really.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
I can't pretend otherwise, because basically the curators are the
historians for the palaces, and that we look after six palaces,
including the Tower of London and Hampton Court and Kensington Palace,
so these quite iconic London palaces. As chief curators, so
Lucy Worseley and we manage the team of curators and
(27:52):
our role really is to research the history of the palaces,
the people within them, and to communicate that history as
well through doing television work or writing content for our website.
Increasingly we're doing things like podcasts that kind of thing.
So we get to research and talk about history all
(28:13):
day long. So it doesn't get much better than that,
really in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
And I want to let you go shortly because I
know it's very late in England. But because you've researched
so much of the history of the English monarchy, I'm
curious what would you say today would make a good monarch,
because I think the role of a good monarch has
shifted over English history, but I would love to know
(28:38):
your take on that and what you think would make
and continues to make a good monarch.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Well, this is going to sound like I asked you
to ask me this question because I've just finished this
theater tour in England called How to Be a Good Monarch.
That was the whole show. It was a show to
coincide with the coronation, and basically it was me sharing
some slightly humorous top tips for current and future monarchs.
(29:05):
And I would say there are a number of strategies
for success, like you need to put on a good show,
you need to be good at managing your pr But
I would say, and this is something that our late
queen embodied very much, you can forgive a lot if
a monarch does his.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Or her duty.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
So if you prove to be very hard working to
uphold all of your duties, don't overstep the mark in
any way.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Just work hard.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
And that's something absolutely Elizabeth I did. And so I
would say duty comes before everything. You can make mistakes,
you might not be all that popular, but if you
do your duty, people respect you for it and you
tend to find you know, the monarchy remains pretty stable
(29:56):
if you've got a dutiful monarch on the throne.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, that's wonderful. Tracy Borman, thank you so much for
joining us listeners. You should pick up a copy of
her book, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth, the first available now.
Truly one of my favorite historians writing today. I can't
think of anyone who communicates history so conversationally and accessibly,
especially to lay people without multiple graduate degrees.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and
Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is created and hosted
by me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by
Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zuick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman.
The show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and
(30:52):
rima il Kahli, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive
producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hello. I am so delighted to be joined today by
the brilliant historian and author Tracy Borman. She's written so
many both novels and brilliant works of history, including Elizabeth's Women,
which I would say is like the seminal work on
the Court of Elizabeth I realizing now that might be
(00:31):
incorrect word choice, but has written brilliantly all about the tutors,
and her latest book is Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth, the first,
I believe, the first, if I'm correct, dual biography of
the two women.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Yes, which is extraordinary because they're two of the best
known women in history, and yet their stories have never
been told together. And I have wanted to ever since
writing Elizabeth's Women, actually because Anne Bolyn could only have
a chapter of that book, there were fifty other women
who I wrote about, and I always wanted to go
(01:04):
back because I found out enough to really intrigue me
and think, you know what, there's more of a story here.
So it's been an absolute joy, just very forensically looking
at their dual history.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I would love to get started with Anne Bolin, who
is one of the most popular figures in the popular
imagination of the Tudor court. I think for good reason.
Why do you think she is such an intriguing figure
for so many years?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, and wouldn't Henry the eighth have hated that that
we're still talking about her.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
More than the other five wives.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I think a lot has to do with the fact
that Anne seems to us actually strikingly modern. She was
a woman who wasn't content just to conform to the
stereotype of a Tudor woman, who was very much a
second class citizen, submissive to the men in her family.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Whereas Anne arrives like a rocket on.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
The English scene from France, and she's full of ideas
about female power and she wants to put them into effect.
So and I love the fact, as I think many
people do that you know, she stood up to Henry
the eighth and she gave as good as she got,
but ultimately it was it was sort of her undoing
that and of course her failure, as Henry saw it,
(02:25):
to give him a son. But of course, as well
as being modern, is also incredibly dramatic and ultimately tragic,
and I think that that holds a kind of timeless appeal.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I've seen people, historians sort of over the centuries, frame
her as a Protestant martyr, or a complete victim, or
a schemer, you know, with some nefarious aims. How would
do you characterize her?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Probably a combination of those things. I'm not one hundred
percent convinced that she was gunning for the throne from
the start, and that's why she held Henry at bay.
I think she probably wasn't at all sure about what
she was getting into. I think what she was sure
about was not just wanting to be a mistress, because
(03:13):
she'd seen how quickly Henry discarded those. Her own sister
Mary had been one of them, so she was holding
out for something more. But I don't really buy into
the idea that she was scheming from the start to
kind of ensnare Henry so that he would make her
his queen. I think perhaps that idea was more to
(03:36):
do with her family and her ambitious father and brother.
But for Anne, I think she's more of an enigma,
and that's only increased by the fact that we have
all of Henry's love letters to her. But none of
Anne's replies to him, So what was Anne feeling? I think,
(03:56):
whether you know, you do believe that she was scheming
for the throne. She was a very skilled political operator.
She was, I believe, a genuine religious reformer. She had
ideas that she really wanted to put into effect on
social reform as well as religious reform. So she was
so far ahead of her time, and I think she's
(04:17):
really to be admired for that.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
How much agency do you ascribe to Anne as opposed
to the powerful men in her life, her father, brother, uncle.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I think she had an unusual degree of agency, and
I think a comparison would be useful here with another
of the Six wives, Katherine Howard, who was also, like Anne,
accused and condemned for adultery, and in Catherine's case, I
think she was guilty. But then I think we've reappraised
Catherine in recent years rightly so, because how much agency
(04:51):
did she have in any of those relationships with the
men in her life? Her music tutor, She was just
thirteen when some kind of relationship happened there, So I
think Catherine didn't have a great deal of power over
her own destiny. But I think Anne much more so.
From her early years she was described as being very
(05:11):
toward or very clever and opinionated, and yeah, she had
big ideas and the vision to carry them through. And
she made Henry the eighth sit up and listen, and
you know she can do that, then she's got a
lot of agency.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I think, do you believe then that she was sort
of innocent of the adultery charges presented against her?
Speaker 4 (05:34):
One hundred percent?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I think if you look at the various charges, Anne
wasn't even in the same place as her accused lovers
on nearly all of them, and it just doesn't fit
with what we know of Anne Bolyn. Here is not
a woman who is lacking in self control. She's held
Henry at bay for seven years and it just doesn't
(05:58):
add up to me. I think her only, if you
can call it, that, is not giving Henry a son.
If she had, there's no way he'd have executed her,
or had the marriage and olds, she would have been
protected for life.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
It's one of those things where history could have veered
so so much based on just that one little accent
of genetics.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
It could and of course the irony is, as we've
been discussing, she has all of this sort of agency,
and she's got this great brain, but ultimately she's judged
by her body and her body's failure to produce that
male air, and really, in Henry's eyes, nothing else matters.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well, speaking of airs, the one child she does provide
is Elizabeth, who, of course Henry could have had no knowledge,
would have reigned in one of the most brilliant periods
for English history. What was your thought process in doing
this dual biography when Elizabeth never met her mother?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yeah, well, I mean Elizabeth was only in Anne's life
all the other way around, actually for two years and
eight months, so it was a very brief relationship. And
actually at the age of three months only, Elizabeth was
removed from Anne and, according to royal traditions, set up
in her own household. And even though Anne visited when
(07:24):
she could, those occasions were rare because the pressure was
on her to of course have a son, so she
was kept at court a lot of the time, but
it wasn't a case of out of sight, out of mind,
and sent regular gifts to Elizabeth. I think she inspired
Elizabeth's later love of fashion because she was always sending
these gorgeous made to measure dresses and velvet caps. But
(07:47):
the influence of Anne on Elizabeth was much more profound
than that. And I think Elizabeth was every bit, if
not more so, as intelligent as her mother. She grew
up curious about her, clearly, and she grew up to
be fascinated by Anne Berlin. And the more she found out,
I think the more Elizabeth got a sense that Anne
(08:09):
had been ill served by her father's justice, if you
can even call it that. I love that quote by
Anne on the scaffold when she said, you know, I
require any person, if they should meddle in my cause,
that they shall judge the best or words to that effect.
And I think really Elizabeth spent her life meddling in
(08:32):
her mother's cause, and she did judge the best. She
came to the right conclusion that her mother had been terribly,
terribly wronged, and that was a wrong that Elizabeth wanted
to put right. So she was her mother's daughter through
and through.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
One thing that you can connect the lines between Elizabeth
and her mother are the ability that Elizabeth had throughout
her life, even though she famously never married, that you
can continue to entertain suitors to her advantage.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
She did.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Do you draw that line from her to her mother.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
I do absolutely, and that's something I really explore in
the book, in that both mother and daughter played the
game of courtly love, and they were both great flirts. Actually,
they loved mail company, and they love to keep themselves
just out of reach. But Elizabeth had learned from her
mother's example, and she'd learned that she needed to keep
(09:26):
the boundaries very strict, indeed, and allow.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
No room for doubt.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
There might be gossip, but it had to be unfounded gossip.
So Elizabeth was very strict in upholding the etiquette and
the morality of her court. It's no accident that Elizabeth's
court was described as being at once both gay, decent,
(09:53):
and superb. And that word decent was quite deliberate.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
You know.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
She might be this great flirt like her, but she
knew very well what had happened to her mother, and
she was going to draw those boundaries very very clearly.
So I do believe Elizabeth lived and died the Virgin Queen.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
As you know, several historians I think also like to
speculate about her relationship with her favorite Lord Darnley now
Flord to Jesus Dudley, pardon me, haven't had my coffee
an now, I know, but I think I'm with you
that it would be too much of a risk for
too high a position.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And I think a really telling piece of evidence came
in fifteen sixty two. So Elizabeth had been queen for
four years when she almost died. She contracted smallpox, one
of the most dangerous diseases of the age. And she
was at Hampton Court, where I work. This is not
just so that I can name drop working Hampton called
this little story.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
But she believed she.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Was on her deathbed, and she summoned her confessor priest,
and she avowed that nothing had ever passed between her
and Robert Dudley. And you know, cynical listeners might say, yeah, yeah,
it's easy to say those things, not in this god
fearing age where you wouldn't tell a lie on your
(11:16):
deathbed because you would think you were going to hell
for eternity.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
So you know, I do believe Elizabeth spoke the truth.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
And also you know, as she said, I will have
but one mistress here and no master. She had fought
for that throne, she had seen her mother's example. You
can't blame her for just not going there, really.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
And I also don't blame her. Childbirth was a very
scary prospect at that time. Even the thought of an
accident or even a pregnancy in marriage, would you're still
a risk?
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Oh my goodness. I mean I would not have wanted
to have gone there myself. It must have been terrifying.
And there's no wonder there were all these weird and
wonderful rituals around her, all these superstitious kind of practices,
because people were just clutching at straws. What's going to
help me, you know when it comes to giving birth,
(12:10):
And Elizabeth was surrounded by these fairly negative examples. You know,
she would have learned about her mother's miscarriages for a start,
and then Jane Seymour, she died shortly after giving birth
to Elizabeth's baby brother. Her sister Mary had the phantom pregnancies,
and then you know, the list goes on and on.
(12:30):
There were many ill fated pregnancies and births in Elizabeth's life,
So I think genuinely she was terrified at the prospect
of giving birth, and she once became quite hysterical when
pushed on the matter of her marriage. So it ran deep,
it was more than just politics. Her decision not to marry.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Absolutely, you mentioned Elizabeth's love of fashion coming from Anne.
How else do you think Anne in ruined Elizabeth from
beyond the grave.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
So I think one of the biggest ways was in religion.
So Anne was, as I mentioned, a genuine reformer. This
is a woman who took risks for her faith. She
was secretly importing band religious texts before she became queen,
and she knew that she could get arrested for heresy.
(13:23):
But she really believed that the church needed to be reformed. Now,
she wasn't what we would call a Protestant, or at
least not then, because she wanted reform from within. So
it wasn't that she wanted to end the Catholic Church.
But these reformist ideas would later become Protestantism, and certainly
(13:43):
that's the religion that was made official by her daughter, Elizabeth.
So I think you can trace the line through of
Anne's religious influence on Elizabeth all the way almost from birth.
So Anne appointed her chaplain Matthew Park to visit Elizabeth
as an infant and preach to her, preach sermons to
(14:05):
this tiny princess and Elizabeth made Parker her first Archbishop
of Canterbury. So I think that just goes to show
the influence that Anne had.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Elizabeth, I think is rightfully celebrated as one of the
most famous and celebrated, you know, queens of England. But
what would you say her weakness as were I feel
like this has become quite a job interview.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
I know, let's think of a weakness that can be
turned into a strength. You know, Oh, I'm a perfectionist
to that thing. I think she probably was. She did
have incredible strengths and I always vote for Elizabeth as
our greatest ever monic in British history. But I think,
you know, it's hard to call it a weakness. But
(14:50):
perhaps there was a certain degree of hesitation procrastination sometimes
in Elizabeth. She was quite fearful about making decisions sometimes,
but quite often that was the right thing to do.
She didn't like to be pushed into decision making, and
often things became clearer while she waited. And what she
(15:11):
did very cleverly, you see, I'm turning into a positive here.
But what she did very cleverly was to play her
male courtiers at their own game and say, look, you know,
I'm just a woman. I can't make a decision. You're
going to have to wait, and that really brought her time.
I think she wasn't particularly nice to her ladies, some
(15:32):
of her ladies, and I think that's another way in
which she took after her mother, because Anne Boleyn had
been quite cruel to some of her ladies and in
particular to her stepdaughter, the Princess Mary. And Elizabeth could
be quite vicious towards her ladies. You sense a bitterness
creeping in as her reign goes on and Elizabeth has
(15:55):
sacrificed her personal desires for her country, and when she
sees her lady is not doing the same, I think
she does get quite jealous, particularly when they start to
go after Elizabeth's own favorites, like Robert Dudley or the
Earl of Essex.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Then she really doesn't like that.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And there's one occasion when Elizabeth actually stabs one of
her ladies in the back of the hand with a
fork because she hasn't quite got it right when serving
Elizabeth at one of her meals. And I think Elizabeth
was in such a fury, so she could be Yeah,
she could be very, very vicious, just like Anne.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
You know, I always find it a little strange because
these are such powerful women, Elizabeth in particular. Obviously, people
sometimes I just think throw the word feminist, which always
struck me as a little anachronistic.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
What do you think it's so anachronistic. And Elizabeth herself,
even if the term had been around and she'd understood it,
she would never have recognized herself as a feminist because
actually she and I think to a lesser extent, Anne
saw herself as an.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Exception to the rule.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
It wasn't that she was championing equal rights for women.
She believed, you know, that women should have that place
of you know, inferiority in society. But she thought that
she was the exception that proved the rule. But when
you look at her speeches, she's almost poking fun at
her sex and saying, you know, well, don't compliment me
(17:24):
on my ability to speak many languages.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
You can't, you know, it's no wonder that a woman
can talk so much.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And she's always kind of coming out with things like
this that actually a slightly critical or very critical of
the female sex. But she has great confidence in herself,
and I think the same was true of Anne. You
can't really say that either woman was really trying to
change women's lot in society. Probably when we're talking of feminism,
(17:53):
somebody who deserves that title more is the fourteenth century
writer Christine de Pisa, and Anne Bolynn was introduced to
Christine's works while she was in France, and Christine is
much more about Hey, you know, women are as intelligent
as men, if not more so. They deserve equality in society.
(18:14):
Neither Anne nor Elizabeth were really saying that.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I don't think, you know, Elizabeth is one of those
historical figures. I feel like in the United States, it's
like Abraham Lincoln, the figure that's written about constantly. Was
there a new story or aspect of Elizabeth's personality that
you think people haven't talked enough about.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yeah, well, I think just her whole relationship with her
mother has not been explored enough until now, and I'm
pleased it hadn't because it gave me the chance to
do so. But I think you do see a more
tender side to Elizabeth and a more vulnerable side as
well when you look at her relationship with her mother.
On the tender side, she surrounds herself from mementos of
(19:00):
her late mother quite discreet ones because she knows Anne
is still controversial. And probably the most discreet memento is
that famous Locket ring. It's known as the Checkers ring
because it's named after our Prime Minister's country house, Checkers,
where the ring is now housed, and it opens up
to reveal a portrait of Anne Boleyn almost certainly, and
(19:24):
the other portrait is of Elizabeth. But when it's closed,
it just looks like a ring with Elizabeth's initials on it.
So that was quite a private memento. But also there
is the vulnerability, and I think Elizabeth, as well as
suffering from a terror of childbirth of marriage, she was
(19:45):
also because of that childhood trauma of losing her mother.
She was prone to fainting fits, and she had lots
of stomach complaints, and she was often gripped by an
inexplicable dress, and I think her childhood experiences had a
lot to do with that, and also the fact that
she tended to cling very tightly to those around her,
(20:10):
and in particular the women at court. If they got
close to her, they were almost like replacement mother figures.
And I think it's thanks to losing Anne at such
a young and quite vulnerable age. Really, you can see
Elizabeth just being quite intense with her relationships. And I'm
thinking of the likes of Blanche Parry, her childhood nurse,
(20:33):
and Katasky, her governess. They served Elizabeth for the rest
of their lives, and Elizabeth kept them so close and
was devastated when they died.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Because obviously she would have had a very tense relationship
with her order half sister Mary as well, even though
she did and obviously in the end give her the
next in line to the throne, annoying her, But what
was that relationship like. Obviously, because Anne had been so
to the young Mary.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Exactly, so Mary had every reason to despise Elizabeth. And
I think it's actually to Mary's credit that she felt
sorry for Elizabeth when Anne had been executed and Henry
didn't want to know Elizabeth. Mary is actually speaking up
for her younger sister, trying to get her father to
look kindly on Elizabeth. And actually it's not a one
(21:22):
dimensional relationship. You might think these two sisters are going
to hate each other from the start, they're the daughters
of rival mothers, but they don't. And this affection grows
up between them. Of course, Mary is much older, so
again she's almost like a maternal figure to her little
sister when Elizabeth is growing up. But what sets them
(21:44):
on a collision course is religion, because of course Mary
is very definitely Catholic and Elizabeth is Protestant. And when
Mary's queen, Elizabeth increasingly is seen as a threat, a
rival to the throne. And that's when it goes horribly wrong.
And that's when Elizabeth has a very disturbing echo of
(22:05):
her mother's fate, when she finds herself a prisoner in
the Tower of London under suspicion of rebelling against her
sister Mary.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
And I was going to say, I love the fact.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
That's perhaps the wrong phrase, but that you know, it's
a bit of psychological torture. Mary and her counsel keep
Elizabeth in the tower until the nineteenth of May fifteen
fifty four, so the nineteenth of May being the anniversary
of Anne's execution. They just want to ramp up the
terror a bit and make Elizabeth think you're going to
(22:40):
go the same way as your mother.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yes, oh my god, I would have been I would
have had a heart attack it's like, you don't even
need to execute her.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
She's yeah, She's just there.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
And Elizabeth, many years later, recalls that, and she recalls
her terror still and said that she thought about asking
Mary for the sword in the same way as her
mother had. So it was going through Elizabeth's mind over
and over. I'm going to be executed just like my mother.
She's kept in the same apartments that Anne Boleyn had
(23:08):
spent her final days. Could it have been more terrifying
for her? It's just extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And from Mary's perspective, I mean, people hate the other
woman who split up your parents marriage today, it must
have been horrific for young Mary growing up seeing a
ter I mean she must have hated Anne Boleyn.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Oh, she despised Anne Berlin absolutely and she You're absolutely right.
She had good reason to. And Anne was pretty despicable
towards Mary. I think because Anne felt insecure and she
felt Mary was a bit of a threat. She knew
that people looked to Mary as the rightful heir to
the throne and to her mother, Catherine is the true queen.
(23:48):
So that had a lot to do with Anne's treatment
of Mary. And yeah, Mary would never well she eventually
had to recognize her father's marriage and her own status
as illegitimate.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
But yeah, she put up a good fight to avoid that.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I want to shift gears slightly. You've written this brilliant
book that I absolutely love that I consult constantly called
Crown Incepter, which basically synthesizes. For those who haven't read it,
you should seek it out wherever you can find it.
The history of every British monarch, from William the Conqueror
to Elizabeth. The fact that you fit it all in
(24:28):
and made it a compelling page turner really is just extraordinary.
But I want to ask, out of all of the monarchs,
who do you think is the most underrated?
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
That is a good question, And do you know what,
I'm so pleased I wrote that book because I am
mainly at tuwed a historian. I have written about other periods,
but that really introduced me to new characters and new periods.
Underrated I would say, I mean one of those that
I've overlooked a lot is Henry the First. I think
(24:59):
out of say anything about Henry the First, but he
was the youngest son of William the Conqueror. He was
really the father of modern government. He introduced a lot
of the institutions and the systems of modern government. He
has the dubious claim of fathering more illegitimate children.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Than any other monarch. So there you go. So, Henry
the verse is one.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
But I would say probably my top underrated bonic is
James the Second. Now he was the one. He was
the brother of Charles the Second. He succeeded him, and
he only reigned for a very short time. And then
the so called Glorious Revolution was when basically Parliament invited
somebody else to take the throne because they couldn't stand James.
(25:43):
And ever since he's been portrayed as this disastrous, tyrannical
monarch who was very intolerant, who was going to insist
that everybody be a Catholic like him.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
It was so far from the truth.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Really, it was a tiny minority in Parliament who didn't
like having a Catholic monarch wanted to get rid of him.
But otherwise James was very popular and he was also
very tolerant. He might have been a Catholic, but he
believed in freedom of worship for all. Now I fell
into the trap of believing that he was a bad thing,
and jolly good that we got rid of him.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
But now I've researched him in more depth.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
I think poor old James actually, and no wonder the
Jacobites kept trying to bring back James and his descendants.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
I think I'd have been one of them. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
My understanding is that they got upset because he married
a Catholic woman too, So yeah, we can tolerate one.
But if you're having Catholic babies exactly disaster.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Yeah, and then she has a son and it's like,
oh no, we've got a long line of Catholics, let's
get rid.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
It's just brilliant how well you're able to cover so
much history and for noble blood for podcast listeners, and
do correct me if I'm wrong. Henry the First was
the one who lost his son in the way Ship disaster.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Correct, So we've covered that on the podcast, So for
listeners who want to put that in contact, sometimes you
get all the Henry is mixed up in your head.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Oh, it's so easily done.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
There are quite that The earlier Henry's I'm a bit
shaky honor or was before Crown and CEP. When we
get to Henry the Seventh I'm okay.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
You have a position as one of the joint Chief
curators of historic Royal Palaces.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
What does that entail? So I mean this is a
dream job really.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
I can't pretend otherwise, because basically the curators are the
historians for the palaces, and that we look after six palaces,
including the Tower of London and Hampton Court and Kensington Palace,
so these quite iconic London palaces. As chief curators, so
Lucy Worseley and we manage the team of curators and
(27:52):
our role really is to research the history of the palaces,
the people within them, and to communicate that history as
well through doing television work or writing content for our website.
Increasingly we're doing things like podcasts that kind of thing.
So we get to research and talk about history all
(28:13):
day long. So it doesn't get much better than that,
really in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
And I want to let you go shortly because I
know it's very late in England. But because you've researched
so much of the history of the English monarchy, I'm
curious what would you say today would make a good monarch,
because I think the role of a good monarch has
shifted over English history, but I would love to know
(28:38):
your take on that and what you think would make
and continues to make a good monarch.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Well, this is going to sound like I asked you
to ask me this question because I've just finished this
theater tour in England called How to Be a Good Monarch.
That was the whole show. It was a show to
coincide with the coronation, and basically it was me sharing
some slightly humorous top tips for current and future monarchs.
(29:05):
And I would say there are a number of strategies
for success, like you need to put on a good show,
you need to be good at managing your pr But
I would say, and this is something that our late
queen embodied very much, you can forgive a lot if
a monarch does his.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Or her duty.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
So if you prove to be very hard working to
uphold all of your duties, don't overstep the mark in
any way.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Just work hard.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
And that's something absolutely Elizabeth I did. And so I
would say duty comes before everything. You can make mistakes,
you might not be all that popular, but if you
do your duty, people respect you for it and you
tend to find you know, the monarchy remains pretty stable
(29:56):
if you've got a dutiful monarch on the throne.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, that's wonderful. Tracy Borman, thank you so much for
joining us listeners. You should pick up a copy of
her book, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth, the first available now.
Truly one of my favorite historians writing today. I can't
think of anyone who communicates history so conversationally and accessibly,
especially to lay people without multiple graduate degrees.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and
Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is created and hosted
by me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by
Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zuick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman.
The show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and
(30:52):
rima il Kahli, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive
producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Dana Schwartz
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