November 7, 2023 • 37 mins
Princess Margaret, Queen Elizabeth II's younger sister, was one of the most famous and glamorous women of the 20th century. But her life was lived in view of, and in response to, the tabloid scandals that threatened to undo her.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
and Mild from Aaron Mankie Listener discretion advised. In Prince
(00:23):
Harry's memoir Spare, he writes, I was twenty the first
time I heard the story of what Pa allegedly said
to Mummy the day of my birth. Wonderful. Now you've
given me an air and a spare. My work is
done a joke, presumably end quote. The label spare defined
(00:46):
pretty much all of the now estranged Prince Harry's royal
life and a good chunk of his self perception. It
is the title of his memoir, after all. Said memoir
recount many times when Harry fell more like a spare
to his brother will than his own person, like how
Charles and William were not allowed to fly on the
(01:08):
same plane in case one of them died, but no
one cared what plane he Harry was on. In Harry's understanding,
his role was to be a distraction in service to
his brother and maybe one day provide a kidney or
other such spare parts. There were two particular groups, however,
(01:30):
that cared a whole lot about what Prince Harry was
doing as he got older. A large demographic of heterosexual women,
and more importantly here the British press. Harry believes the
tabloids singled him out to elevate the opinion of the
other royals. By comparison the quote public sacrifice of the spare,
(01:55):
as Harry refers to it, there is perhaps no one
who understood those public sacrifices of the spare and the
nature of the press better than Harry's great aunt, Princess Margaret.
What could make the press even more vulturous than going
after the easy pickings of the spare? Going after a
(02:17):
spare who was also a woman when my sister and
I were growing up, Margaret would reflect later in life,
she was made out to be the goody goody one
that wasn't interesting, so the press tried to say I
was wicked as hell. It didn't always work end quote.
That reputation would follow Margaret for her entire life, commenting
(02:42):
on and eventually also informing the person. She became daughter
of King George the sixth, younger sister and only sibling
of the future Queen Elizabeth the IOND. Princess Margaret was
bound to become a celebrity. Her destiny was further sured
by her socialite lifestyle and often objectively messy romantic life.
(03:07):
She remains known as the rebel Princess, the Black Sheep,
and an icon in her own right. A twenty seventeen
biography was sold with the description she made John Lennon
blush and Marlon Brando clam up. She cold shouldered Princess
Diana and humiliated Elizabeth Taylor. Andy Warhol photographed her. Jack
(03:32):
Nicholson offered her cocaine. Gorvidal revered her. John Falls hoped
to keep her as his sex slave. No matter where
those anecdotes fall on the scale of truth, it cannot
be denied that Princess Margaret was a fixture in the
heart of twentieth century culture. Beyond the press and the glitz. However,
(03:57):
was a woman coping with the nature of fi her
own personal struggles, and yes, of course, these strange and
unnatural pressures of being a royal and being a spare.
I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is noble blood. Margaret was
(04:19):
born on August twenty first, nineteen thirty, at Glamis Castle
in Scotland, her mother's ancestral home. Margaret's family actually delayed
to register her birth until October second, though, as Margaret
would have been number thirteen on the local registry and
superstition cautioned them to wait for another baby to be
(04:41):
born in the village. Wonder what happened to that child.
Margaret's parents were then known as the Duke and Duchess
of York, making her Princess Margaret Rose of York. Her mother,
Lady Elizabeth Bow's Lion, came from a long line of
Scottish peers of the Realm, while her father, Albert Frederick
(05:02):
Arthur George, was the second son of King George the Fifth,
himself the spare after his older brother David, and as
fate would have it, he was a spare that would
actually be required in service. But back before all of that,
the Duke was determined to make sure his two daughters
(05:23):
looked back fondly on their quote early years as a
golden age end quote as opposed to his own bleak
memories of childhood. And while this meant they were raised
with much love, the princesses did not receive much in
the way of an education. Margaret and Elizabeth's mother believed
(05:44):
her daughters needed only to be educated as quote nicely
behaved young ladies. As the journalist Randolph Churchill once described,
this meant that the girls would draw, dance, and appreciate music,
as well as maintain proper manners and feminine grace. When
their grandmother, Queen Mary, insisted on the importance of a
(06:08):
broader education, the girl's mother dismissed the idea. I don't
know what she meant, she apparently said, after all, I
and my sisters only had governesses, and we all married, well,
one of us very well. As an adult, Margaret would
come to resent her mother for this. The princess's governess
(06:32):
was a twenty four year old scotswoman named Mary Crawford,
dubbed Crawfee by the young then Princess Elizabeth. Much of
the information that we have about the young Princess's childhoods
comes from Crawfee herself, but more on that in a bit.
We know that Margaret was an imaginative child. She would
(06:53):
be quick to place the blame for wrongdoings on an
imaginary friend cousin Halifax. The The imagination wasn't always cute
to Crawfey, though, who painted a picture of Margaret as
yes imaginative, talented, and witty but also naughty, untidy, and
strong willed. An old story goes that when Margaret was
(07:17):
dressed up as an angel to attend a fancy dress party,
her mother exclaimed, you don't look very angelic, Margaret. That's
all right, equipped the princess, I'll be a holy terror.
Many of these anecdotes come from Crawford's nineteen fifty book
The Little Princesses, published only a few short years after
(07:40):
her nineteen forty seven retirement upon the marriage of Elizabeth.
The book was a commercial success, but as you might imagine,
it felt like a betrayal to the royal family, who
did not consent to its publication, nor did they approve
of their characterizations. By this time, the public had plenty
(08:01):
of established opinions on Margaret, but her portrayal in the
book as a child who was spoiled and jealous of
her quote priggish older sister only sought to confirm the
public perceptions of the woman they thought they knew. Put
in perhaps gentler terms, the girl's father once described Elizabeth
(08:24):
as his pride and Margaret as his joy. Crawfey likely
didn't have her sights set on a tell all when
she first took the job because who would care all
that much about a tell all about the daughters of
a duke. But as we know, history took a different path.
(08:45):
For those who haven't seen the Crown or are generally
unfamiliar with twentieth century English royal history, it can be
briefly summarized like this. David, the Prince of Wales's future
King of England, fell madly in love with a twice
divorced American woman named Wallace Simpson. The royal family was
(09:06):
incredibly wary of that romance, believing her to be a
wicked seductress, and as head of the Church of England,
an institution that did not recognize divorce, she would never
make a suitable wife for a monarch. King George the
Fifth died and David ascended to the throne as Edward
the eighth. Edward did not care much about his new duties.
(09:31):
In fact, he mostly seemed to care about his wicked
seductress divorcee girlfriend, who incidentally only became twice divorced after
she officially left her second husband, which she hadn't earlier.
The royal family, realizing that the king actually intended to
marry her, lost their collective minds, so Edward abdicated to
(09:56):
Mary Simpson and his younger brother ascended as George the
sixth To Margaret, King, Edward was simply Uncle David in
the days before Wallace Simpson. His public persona was more
in line with how people would come to see Margaret
as a royal socialite, unconcerned with the rigidity and discipline
(10:21):
his family and the position required. It was always Margaret's father,
like her sister Elizabeth, who fell more in line with
what was expected of a monarch. When Margaret's father unexpectedly
became king, Margaret was suddenly second in line to inherit
the throne, and the family moved into Buckingham Palace. Unlike
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the rest of her family, Margaret did not undertake public
or official duties in those early years. Instead, she spent
much of her time as a child and teen learning
the piano and practicing show tunes, which she would perform
for guests. The dowager Queen Mary apparently used to describe
her granddaughter in French as ispege or mischievous, giving her
(11:10):
an early reputation among those in the know as an
enfhand tibe. Margaret's first big moment in the public eye
was in February nineteen forty seven, at age sixteen, when
all four members of the royal family embarked on a
three month tour of South Africa. Margaret's role on the
(11:31):
trip was, apparently, quote a relatively thankless one. For Beside
her sister, heir to the throne, she Margaret cut a
less prominent figure in the eyes of the public. Yet
throughout the daily round of civic ceremonies, that pretty and
highly personable young princess held her own. That's a quote
(11:53):
from Peter Townsend, the King's equery and for the purposes
of this trip, Margaret its chaperone. It's a fairly accurate
assessment from a man who will come back to play
a much bigger role in the story soon. The press's
focus at the time was Elizabeth, who turned twenty one
(12:14):
during the trip and who made her first major speech,
but stories were already beginning to circulate about the enfantibe's
eye rolls towards officials. Shortly after the family's returned to England,
the engagement between Princess Elizabeth and Prince Philip was announced,
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even though the couple had privately gotten engaged before the
trip even began. At the same time, it was agreed
upon that Margaret had been a success in South Africa
and would begin to take on more public duties, including
some that formerly had belonged to her older sister. She
would launch ships, attend gala performances, inspect guards, visit charitable institutions,
(13:01):
tour hospitals, you name it. This was the true beginning
of Margaret's tabloid life. As she stepped out more and more,
the press began to recognize something in her that they
didn't quite see in her dutiful older sister star quality.
(13:21):
She was pretty, glamorous, charismatic and single. When Christian Dyore
launched his first collection in late nineteen forty seven and
established the new look of cinched waists and full skirts
for women's fashion, Margaret was one of the first public
figures to adopt it, disregarding government disapproval of the extravagant style.
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When Margaret arrived at an event for her parents' anniversary
in this new style and a pair of very high heels,
it said that her example was followed by ten million
British women. The press fixated on her every detail. She
had a twenty three inch waist and a thirty four
inch bust and vivid blue eyes. They knew all her
(14:10):
favorite haunts, the four hundred Club, than the Cafe de
Perry and Mirabelle, and they knew all the friends that
she met there, a group they would come to call
the Margaret Set, mostly composed of the children of politicians
or peers of the realm. They all had fantastic rich
people names like Sas Douglas, Lady Caroline Montague, Douglas Scott,
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and Sonny Blandford. Margaret and her friends were portrayed as
glamorous socialites but also spoiled party animals, in other words,
the press's two favorite things one can be at nineteen,
Margaret was seen smoking for the first time out of
a long ivory cigarette holder after dinner in a West
(14:57):
End restaurant, which incited backlash and started a trend. At
the same time, those who saw her in a negative
light were only reinforced by the nineteen fifties publication of
Crawfey's book, which characterized Margaret not only as a trouble
making child, but a spoiled young adult who made a
(15:17):
joke of everything She is. Britain's number one item for
public scrutiny, read an American headline from around the same time.
People are more interested in her than in the House
of Commons or the dollar crisis. Despite being known as
young and rebellious, Margaret did take her royal status very seriously.
(15:40):
To her friends, she was ma'am and her father was
only to be referred to as His Majesty the King.
I feel sorry for her. A party guest apparently once said,
she hasn't the faintest idea of what anyone is like,
referring to the way that everyone would change when she
stepped into a room. But it seemed that was the
(16:02):
way Margaret wanted it. She was a notorious stickler for
detail in her royal inspections, and the singer Peggy Lee
remembered that when she performed at the Pagale, freshly ironed
sheets had to be laid over the kitchen floor of
the club because they heard Princess Margaret would be arriving
(16:23):
by a back entrance. In the spring of nineteen forty nine,
Margaret made an official visit to Italy, where she was
mobbed everywhere she went like a film star. Crowds were
eager to get a glimpse at Labella Margarita, a maid
was paid by the press to find out what was
in her hotel room, and a blurry photograph of Margaret
(16:45):
in a pale bathing suit made its way into newspapers
and magazines, sparking rumors that she was bathing nude. Rumors
surrounding this Italian trip would reach new heights with the
release of a little film called Roman Holiday a few
years later, in which Audrey Hepburn played a princess touring
Italy who escapes her royal duties and ends up meeting
(17:09):
and falling in love with an American journalist played by
Margaret's favorite actor, Gregory Peck. By that time, there was
an obvious parallel in the minds of the public Princess
Margaret and Peter Townsend told You if he'd be back.
On June fourteenth, nineteen fifty three, the tabloid The People
(17:33):
became the first to break news of the relationship between
the princess and her chaperone, with the headline they must
deny it now, advising that it is high time for
the British public to be made aware of the fact
that scandalous rumors about the Princess Margaret are racing around
the world. Two months later, the film Roman Holiday was released,
(17:57):
and the public interest surrounding the real couple was so
intense that Paramount was apparently made to record an extra
scene to establish that Audrey Hepburn's character was not a
member of the British royal family. According to the actress,
the parallel was milked for all it was worth. But
whether or not screenwriters had heard rumors of the real
(18:19):
life affair or Paramount just got incredibly lucky, we'll never know. Townsend,
for his part, was not present for the real life
Italian trip. Some background on him. Townsend was a captain
in the Royal Air Force and a decorated World War
II hero. When the King wanted someone from the Royal
(18:42):
Air Force to represent at court, Townsend was recommended to
him to serve as a temporary equerry, which quickly became
a permanent position as the King became fond of him.
He was twenty nine when he was hired, and accomplished
in his military career, but failing from a middle class background,
(19:02):
which made him something of an outsider at court. He
was also notably married, but fourteen year old Margaret is
still said to have quickly developed a crush. The story
goes she told friends she fell in love with him
when she was sixteen on the South African tour, but
to the public, both Margaret and Townshend had claimed there
(19:25):
were no inklings of romance until after he and his
wife separated in nineteen fifty one, and the couple confessed
their love to each other only after his divorce was
granted in nineteen fifty two on the grounds of his
wife's adultery. The relationship carried on privately for about a year,
(19:45):
with those in the nose stressing about its possibilities and
hoping it to be a brief affair. That was until
their accidental public debut at Elizabeth's coronation in June nineteen
fifty three, following the death of their father the year before. There,
photographers caught a glimpse of Margaret brushing a bit of
(20:09):
lint off Townsend's uniform, which was perceived as too intimate
and tender not to be romantic in nature. The secret
was out the next day in papers across the continent
and in America, but the British press actually held off
covering the story as long as they could to remain
(20:30):
in the Palace's favor, as they had done earlier during
the time of Edward and Wallace Simpson. When the People
was finally first to cover the story twelve days later,
they used an old trick to get around the issue
of loyalty by expressing mock outrage at these rumors on
(20:51):
Margaret's behalf. It is quite unthinkable that a royal princess,
third in line of succession to the throne should even
content and plate a marriage with a man who has
been through the divorce courts. Behind the scenes, Margaret and
Townsend had been thinking about marriage, but Elizabeth had advised
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them to wait a year, most likely secretly hoping the
relationship would fizzle out, but not wanting to disappoint her
beloved sister. There was also the matter of the Royal
Marriages Act of seventeen seventy two, which meant that until
Margaret was twenty five, she would need Elizabeth's consent to
marry someone of her choice. Once the relationship got the
(21:36):
public's attention, it became a matter not just of royal
gossip but a matter of government, and with both the
government and the Crown opposed to the match, it was
recommended that Townsend be sent away for some time. He
was effectively exiled to Brussels without Margaret's knowledge. But what
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did the public really think of the relationship. At the
time of Townsend's exile, the Daily Mirror polled its readers
asking them should they marry? Sixty seven thousand, nine hundred
and seven Mirror readers voted yes, only two thousand, two
hundred and thirty five said no. With the floodgates open,
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every paper in the country soon had an opinion on
the marriage, with some arguing that Margaret was setting a
poor example in her potential willingness to defy the Church,
while others considered the church's opinion outdated and supported the
couple as a romance, defying all odds. Others simply considered
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it a matter of personal choice. Michael Foot, a future
Labor Party leader, wrote in The Tribune, this intolerable piece
of interference with a girl's private life is all part
of the absurd myth about the Royal family which has
been so sedulously built up by interested parties in recent years.
(23:03):
He argued that the laws of England allowed for divorce
and the royal family was just as subject to those
laws as anyone else behind the scenes. Despite Townsend's forced exit,
those close to the couple would say in the following
years that they were still very much in love and
spoke constantly. This discourse continued for another two years and
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reached a climax around Margaret's twenty fifth birthday, which was
the year she would no longer need the monarch's consent
to marry. Come on, Margaret, read the Daily Mail's front
page two days before her birthday. She could end the hubbub.
Will she please make up her mind? In October nineteen
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fifty five, only a few months after her birthday, Margaret's
and Townsend officially reunited. But it wasn't a private affair.
Quote The restraint which had until now characterized the British
press in its coverage of the royal persons disappeared forever,
writes biographer THEO. Aronson. The final crisis of the world's
(24:11):
greatest royal romance was played out in the most merciless
of spotlights. En The estate where the two stayed together
was surrounded day and night, complete with airplanes circling above,
and the press would not relent, even in spite of
the Queen's Secretary's please for privacy. Despite the public fervor
(24:35):
in favor of the romance, the government did not relent
its stance against the marriage. They declared that if the
princess insisted on marrying Townshend, then a bill would be
placed in front of Parliament stripping her of all of
her rights, privileges, and income. She would also have to
be married in a civil ceremony and be forced to
(24:58):
live out of the country for the first few years. Ultimately,
despite her, by all accounts, genuine love for Townsend, it
was not the life she wanted. In his memoirs, Townsend wrote, quote,
it was too much to ask of her, too much
for her to give. We would have been left with
nothing but our devotion to face the world. Finally making
(25:23):
a decision, he said, liberated them after several tumultuous years. Quote,
at last we could talk without that crushing weight of
world opinion, the sympathy, the criticism, the pity, and the anger,
all the mass of emotion which had weighed so heavily
on our minds end. Quote. Of those many opinions, Margaret
(25:47):
allegedly later told friends, they were so against us it
almost made me change my mind and marry him after all.
Years later, friends and Townsend came to similar conclusions. Margaret
was simply not ready to be a housewife and a
stepmother to two sons at age twenty five. In the
(26:10):
wake of the Townshend affair, you can imagine the press
only wanted more and more of Margaret. One daily Mirror
headline simply asked, is she sad? Yes? Probably. Margaret coped
with the aftermath by leading a more active social life
than ever, reviving the pre engagement socialite days of the
(26:33):
Margaret set with an even greater emphasis on her love
of live theater and entertainment, though it never quieted down.
The next major frenzy of press to reach Townshend Heights
would come not with her marriage to but her divorce
from Anthony Armstrong Jones. The couple first met in nineteen
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fifty eight at a dinner party, and Margaret was drawn
to the man with footholds in both the aristocratic and
artistic worlds. His father was a barrister, his mother a socialite.
In his youth, he found he was not particularly skilled
at school or sports, but he had a unique passion
(27:17):
for photography and had by the point of their meeting
built a career as a celebrated theatrical and portrait photographer.
The couple were able to keep their courtship a secret
from the press, and the announcement of their engagement in
February nineteen sixty came as a surprise. It was framed
(27:38):
as a second chance at happiness after being denied her
marriage to Townsend, and the public finally got their reverse
Cinderella story of a commoner marrying a princess. Not everyone
was thrilled with Antony's relatively humble background. As The Times
put it, there was quote no recent press for the
(28:00):
marriage of one so near the throne, outside the ranks
of international royalty and the British peerage end quote. Their
wedding was the first royal wedding to be televised, as
was fitting for the modern princess and her quote simple
wedding dress was designed by Norman Hartnell, and it was
(28:23):
considered a statement of Margaret's individuality. As a wedding present,
a friend gifted Margaret a plot of land on his
private Caribbean island Moustique, which would become infamously associated with
Margaret years later. To the public. The couple, now known
as the Snowdens after Antony's appointment as the Earl of Snowden,
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were favorites, seen as living a sheikh bohemian lifestyle while
the rest of the royal family was stuck in the
Victorian era. They were both interested in fashion and adopted
the maud look, which only led to the couple being
more photographed. They ran in celebrity circles. Margaret befriended Drag
(29:07):
Queen's playwrights. Musicians John Lennon knew the couple as priceless.
Margarine and Bonnie armstrove behind the scenes and two children later.
The marriage was rocky, with Armstrong Jones realizing a bit
too late that he was not fit for a life
of royal engagements, and he yearned to reignite the career
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he had been forced to leave behind. Both husband and
wife began to engage in extramarital affairs. By the end
of nineteen sixty six, Margaret was smoking and drinking excessively
to cope with the fracturing relationship. As early as nineteen
sixty seven, the press began to share whispers that there
(29:53):
was trouble in Paradise. A well known royal gossip writer
once admitted to the author, Aim Andrew Duncan, that he
was making up stories about the Snowdens to sell to
foreign magazines. Of course I exaggerate, he claimed, What are
they going to do? Sue me? The instability for the
(30:13):
couple continued four years, but came to a head in
nineteen seventy six when Margaret was photographed swimming on her
private island with a man seventeen years her junior. He
was Roddy Llewellyn, a young landscape gardener and aristocrat. They
had met three years earlier, when she was forty three
(30:34):
and he was twenty five, and he was invited to
lunch with the princess and mutual friends. The two apparently
got on well immediately, and Margaret, having been through so
much emotional turmoil in recent years, was excited at the
prospect of starting something new with the younger man. However,
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soon after it began, the affair proved to be too
much for Luella, who had his own history of mental
health struggles. He fled abroad seeking an escape from it,
but eventually came back to check into the care of
a psychiatrist. Margaret, for her part, was devastated by his
departure and took too many sleeping pills. I was so
(31:19):
exhausted because of everything. She later reflected that all I
wanted to do was sleep. Margaret and Roddy were able
to reconcile after both of their healths had improved, and
they resumed what Margaret called their loving friendship. They visited
Margaret's house on Mustique together, where they were photographed by
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a photographer who had snuck onto the island posing as
a tourist. Margaret, Roddy, and a couple staying with them
all had gone swimming together, but when the photos were published,
they were cropped to make it look like Margaret and
the young man were alone. They appeared on the front
page of News of the World, and the royal family
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was rocked with the scandal they hadn't seen since the
days of Townsend. The press hounded her toy boy, while
politicians took to calling Margaret a royal parasite and a
fluozy who wasted taxpayer money vacationing with younger men. It
was also apparently the final nail in the coffin of
(32:28):
the Snowden marriage, an excuse to finally seek divorce. Of course,
it's now seen as an ironic twist that Margaret's first
major scandal began with a divorce and her second major
scandal ended with one more quote unquote. Serious newspapers took
(32:50):
to blaming the divorce on the gossip rags. Almost since
the day of their marriage, the press, fed by bitchy
society gossip, took a prairie and intrusive interest in their
private life. Noted The Times as Philip Howard, upon the
royal split the princess, he said, was fair game quote
(33:11):
for our national hypocrisy masquerading as morality. The earlier assertion
that the British press forever changed with the Townshend affair
was accurate and representative of the kind of invasiveness royal
women like Princess Diana, Sarah Ferguson and Megan Markle would
(33:31):
one day face. In nineteen seventy eight, shortly after the
divorce was finalized, Margaret fell ill. While she continued to
be involved in the arts and charity works, she struggled
greatly with her health for the remainder of her life
due to her chronic smoking and drinking. Her last public
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appearances were at the one hundred and first birthday celebration
of her mother and the one hundredth birthday celebration of
her aunt Alice. Margaret died at age seventy one from
complications after a stroke. Later in life, Margaret herself reflected
on what she felt her role in the public I
(34:15):
was quote in my own humble way. I've always tried
to take some of the burden off of my sister.
She can't do it all, you know, and I leap
at the opportunity to help. Sometimes it can be very
formal and boring. But I've got a reflex against that now.
It's very much up to one not to be bored.
(34:47):
That's the story of Princess Margaret's public life. But keep
listening after a brief sponsor break to hear about one
particularly juicy alleged dalliance. Throughout her lifetime, Margaret was linked
(35:10):
to far more men than I had time to mention today,
but some were so iconic that they deserve special mention.
The rumor mill has long alleged that Llewellyn wasn't the
only man Margaret courted in Mustique. Mick Jagger visited the
island on Margaret's invitation and evidently enjoyed it. So much
(35:30):
that he eventually built a home there. The two met
at a birthday party in the early nineteen seventies, and
while the wording may be different, all sources note that
Margaret's dress was low cut when she made her first
introduction to the singer. They spent the night chatting, and
a source from a Jagger biography alleges that after that
(35:53):
they spoke on the phone constantly, and Margaret invited him
to social events any other women. She found him sexy
and exciting. If you saw them together dancing the way
she'd put her hand on his knee and giggle at
his stories like a schoolgirl, you'd have thought there was
something going on. Neither Margaret nor Mick Jagger have ever
(36:18):
spoken about a relationship, but it said they remained friends
until Margaret's death. Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio
(36:42):
and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankee. Noble Blood is
created and hosted by me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing
and researching by Hannah Johnston, hannah's Wick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender,
and Lori Goodman. The show is edited and produced by
Noemi Griffin and rima Il Kahali with supervising producer Josh
(37:06):
Thain and executive producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
and Mild from Aaron Mankie Listener discretion advised. In Prince
(00:23):
Harry's memoir Spare, he writes, I was twenty the first
time I heard the story of what Pa allegedly said
to Mummy the day of my birth. Wonderful. Now you've
given me an air and a spare. My work is
done a joke, presumably end quote. The label spare defined
(00:46):
pretty much all of the now estranged Prince Harry's royal
life and a good chunk of his self perception. It
is the title of his memoir, after all. Said memoir
recount many times when Harry fell more like a spare
to his brother will than his own person, like how
Charles and William were not allowed to fly on the
(01:08):
same plane in case one of them died, but no
one cared what plane he Harry was on. In Harry's understanding,
his role was to be a distraction in service to
his brother and maybe one day provide a kidney or
other such spare parts. There were two particular groups, however,
(01:30):
that cared a whole lot about what Prince Harry was
doing as he got older. A large demographic of heterosexual women,
and more importantly here the British press. Harry believes the
tabloids singled him out to elevate the opinion of the
other royals. By comparison the quote public sacrifice of the spare,
(01:55):
as Harry refers to it, there is perhaps no one
who understood those public sacrifices of the spare and the
nature of the press better than Harry's great aunt, Princess Margaret.
What could make the press even more vulturous than going
after the easy pickings of the spare? Going after a
(02:17):
spare who was also a woman when my sister and
I were growing up, Margaret would reflect later in life,
she was made out to be the goody goody one
that wasn't interesting, so the press tried to say I
was wicked as hell. It didn't always work end quote.
That reputation would follow Margaret for her entire life, commenting
(02:42):
on and eventually also informing the person. She became daughter
of King George the sixth, younger sister and only sibling
of the future Queen Elizabeth the IOND. Princess Margaret was
bound to become a celebrity. Her destiny was further sured
by her socialite lifestyle and often objectively messy romantic life.
(03:07):
She remains known as the rebel Princess, the Black Sheep,
and an icon in her own right. A twenty seventeen
biography was sold with the description she made John Lennon
blush and Marlon Brando clam up. She cold shouldered Princess
Diana and humiliated Elizabeth Taylor. Andy Warhol photographed her. Jack
(03:32):
Nicholson offered her cocaine. Gorvidal revered her. John Falls hoped
to keep her as his sex slave. No matter where
those anecdotes fall on the scale of truth, it cannot
be denied that Princess Margaret was a fixture in the
heart of twentieth century culture. Beyond the press and the glitz. However,
(03:57):
was a woman coping with the nature of fi her
own personal struggles, and yes, of course, these strange and
unnatural pressures of being a royal and being a spare.
I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is noble blood. Margaret was
(04:19):
born on August twenty first, nineteen thirty, at Glamis Castle
in Scotland, her mother's ancestral home. Margaret's family actually delayed
to register her birth until October second, though, as Margaret
would have been number thirteen on the local registry and
superstition cautioned them to wait for another baby to be
(04:41):
born in the village. Wonder what happened to that child.
Margaret's parents were then known as the Duke and Duchess
of York, making her Princess Margaret Rose of York. Her mother,
Lady Elizabeth Bow's Lion, came from a long line of
Scottish peers of the Realm, while her father, Albert Frederick
(05:02):
Arthur George, was the second son of King George the Fifth,
himself the spare after his older brother David, and as
fate would have it, he was a spare that would
actually be required in service. But back before all of that,
the Duke was determined to make sure his two daughters
(05:23):
looked back fondly on their quote early years as a
golden age end quote as opposed to his own bleak
memories of childhood. And while this meant they were raised
with much love, the princesses did not receive much in
the way of an education. Margaret and Elizabeth's mother believed
(05:44):
her daughters needed only to be educated as quote nicely
behaved young ladies. As the journalist Randolph Churchill once described,
this meant that the girls would draw, dance, and appreciate music,
as well as maintain proper manners and feminine grace. When
their grandmother, Queen Mary, insisted on the importance of a
(06:08):
broader education, the girl's mother dismissed the idea. I don't
know what she meant, she apparently said, after all, I
and my sisters only had governesses, and we all married, well,
one of us very well. As an adult, Margaret would
come to resent her mother for this. The princess's governess
(06:32):
was a twenty four year old scotswoman named Mary Crawford,
dubbed Crawfee by the young then Princess Elizabeth. Much of
the information that we have about the young Princess's childhoods
comes from Crawfee herself, but more on that in a bit.
We know that Margaret was an imaginative child. She would
(06:53):
be quick to place the blame for wrongdoings on an
imaginary friend cousin Halifax. The The imagination wasn't always cute
to Crawfey, though, who painted a picture of Margaret as
yes imaginative, talented, and witty but also naughty, untidy, and
strong willed. An old story goes that when Margaret was
(07:17):
dressed up as an angel to attend a fancy dress party,
her mother exclaimed, you don't look very angelic, Margaret. That's
all right, equipped the princess, I'll be a holy terror.
Many of these anecdotes come from Crawford's nineteen fifty book
The Little Princesses, published only a few short years after
(07:40):
her nineteen forty seven retirement upon the marriage of Elizabeth.
The book was a commercial success, but as you might imagine,
it felt like a betrayal to the royal family, who
did not consent to its publication, nor did they approve
of their characterizations. By this time, the public had plenty
(08:01):
of established opinions on Margaret, but her portrayal in the
book as a child who was spoiled and jealous of
her quote priggish older sister only sought to confirm the
public perceptions of the woman they thought they knew. Put
in perhaps gentler terms, the girl's father once described Elizabeth
(08:24):
as his pride and Margaret as his joy. Crawfey likely
didn't have her sights set on a tell all when
she first took the job because who would care all
that much about a tell all about the daughters of
a duke. But as we know, history took a different path.
(08:45):
For those who haven't seen the Crown or are generally
unfamiliar with twentieth century English royal history, it can be
briefly summarized like this. David, the Prince of Wales's future
King of England, fell madly in love with a twice
divorced American woman named Wallace Simpson. The royal family was
(09:06):
incredibly wary of that romance, believing her to be a
wicked seductress, and as head of the Church of England,
an institution that did not recognize divorce, she would never
make a suitable wife for a monarch. King George the
Fifth died and David ascended to the throne as Edward
the eighth. Edward did not care much about his new duties.
(09:31):
In fact, he mostly seemed to care about his wicked
seductress divorcee girlfriend, who incidentally only became twice divorced after
she officially left her second husband, which she hadn't earlier.
The royal family, realizing that the king actually intended to
marry her, lost their collective minds, so Edward abdicated to
(09:56):
Mary Simpson and his younger brother ascended as George the
sixth To Margaret, King, Edward was simply Uncle David in
the days before Wallace Simpson. His public persona was more
in line with how people would come to see Margaret
as a royal socialite, unconcerned with the rigidity and discipline
(10:21):
his family and the position required. It was always Margaret's father,
like her sister Elizabeth, who fell more in line with
what was expected of a monarch. When Margaret's father unexpectedly
became king, Margaret was suddenly second in line to inherit
the throne, and the family moved into Buckingham Palace. Unlike
(10:46):
the rest of her family, Margaret did not undertake public
or official duties in those early years. Instead, she spent
much of her time as a child and teen learning
the piano and practicing show tunes, which she would perform
for guests. The dowager Queen Mary apparently used to describe
her granddaughter in French as ispege or mischievous, giving her
(11:10):
an early reputation among those in the know as an
enfhand tibe. Margaret's first big moment in the public eye
was in February nineteen forty seven, at age sixteen, when
all four members of the royal family embarked on a
three month tour of South Africa. Margaret's role on the
(11:31):
trip was, apparently, quote a relatively thankless one. For Beside
her sister, heir to the throne, she Margaret cut a
less prominent figure in the eyes of the public. Yet
throughout the daily round of civic ceremonies, that pretty and
highly personable young princess held her own. That's a quote
(11:53):
from Peter Townsend, the King's equery and for the purposes
of this trip, Margaret its chaperone. It's a fairly accurate
assessment from a man who will come back to play
a much bigger role in the story soon. The press's
focus at the time was Elizabeth, who turned twenty one
(12:14):
during the trip and who made her first major speech,
but stories were already beginning to circulate about the enfantibe's
eye rolls towards officials. Shortly after the family's returned to England,
the engagement between Princess Elizabeth and Prince Philip was announced,
(12:35):
even though the couple had privately gotten engaged before the
trip even began. At the same time, it was agreed
upon that Margaret had been a success in South Africa
and would begin to take on more public duties, including
some that formerly had belonged to her older sister. She
would launch ships, attend gala performances, inspect guards, visit charitable institutions,
(13:01):
tour hospitals, you name it. This was the true beginning
of Margaret's tabloid life. As she stepped out more and more,
the press began to recognize something in her that they
didn't quite see in her dutiful older sister star quality.
(13:21):
She was pretty, glamorous, charismatic and single. When Christian Dyore
launched his first collection in late nineteen forty seven and
established the new look of cinched waists and full skirts
for women's fashion, Margaret was one of the first public
figures to adopt it, disregarding government disapproval of the extravagant style.
(13:46):
When Margaret arrived at an event for her parents' anniversary
in this new style and a pair of very high heels,
it said that her example was followed by ten million
British women. The press fixated on her every detail. She
had a twenty three inch waist and a thirty four
inch bust and vivid blue eyes. They knew all her
(14:10):
favorite haunts, the four hundred Club, than the Cafe de
Perry and Mirabelle, and they knew all the friends that
she met there, a group they would come to call
the Margaret Set, mostly composed of the children of politicians
or peers of the realm. They all had fantastic rich
people names like Sas Douglas, Lady Caroline Montague, Douglas Scott,
(14:34):
and Sonny Blandford. Margaret and her friends were portrayed as
glamorous socialites but also spoiled party animals, in other words,
the press's two favorite things one can be at nineteen,
Margaret was seen smoking for the first time out of
a long ivory cigarette holder after dinner in a West
(14:57):
End restaurant, which incited backlash and started a trend. At
the same time, those who saw her in a negative
light were only reinforced by the nineteen fifties publication of
Crawfey's book, which characterized Margaret not only as a trouble
making child, but a spoiled young adult who made a
(15:17):
joke of everything She is. Britain's number one item for
public scrutiny, read an American headline from around the same time.
People are more interested in her than in the House
of Commons or the dollar crisis. Despite being known as
young and rebellious, Margaret did take her royal status very seriously.
(15:40):
To her friends, she was ma'am and her father was
only to be referred to as His Majesty the King.
I feel sorry for her. A party guest apparently once said,
she hasn't the faintest idea of what anyone is like,
referring to the way that everyone would change when she
stepped into a room. But it seemed that was the
(16:02):
way Margaret wanted it. She was a notorious stickler for
detail in her royal inspections, and the singer Peggy Lee
remembered that when she performed at the Pagale, freshly ironed
sheets had to be laid over the kitchen floor of
the club because they heard Princess Margaret would be arriving
(16:23):
by a back entrance. In the spring of nineteen forty nine,
Margaret made an official visit to Italy, where she was
mobbed everywhere she went like a film star. Crowds were
eager to get a glimpse at Labella Margarita, a maid
was paid by the press to find out what was
in her hotel room, and a blurry photograph of Margaret
(16:45):
in a pale bathing suit made its way into newspapers
and magazines, sparking rumors that she was bathing nude. Rumors
surrounding this Italian trip would reach new heights with the
release of a little film called Roman Holiday a few
years later, in which Audrey Hepburn played a princess touring
Italy who escapes her royal duties and ends up meeting
(17:09):
and falling in love with an American journalist played by
Margaret's favorite actor, Gregory Peck. By that time, there was
an obvious parallel in the minds of the public Princess
Margaret and Peter Townsend told You if he'd be back.
On June fourteenth, nineteen fifty three, the tabloid The People
(17:33):
became the first to break news of the relationship between
the princess and her chaperone, with the headline they must
deny it now, advising that it is high time for
the British public to be made aware of the fact
that scandalous rumors about the Princess Margaret are racing around
the world. Two months later, the film Roman Holiday was released,
(17:57):
and the public interest surrounding the real couple was so
intense that Paramount was apparently made to record an extra
scene to establish that Audrey Hepburn's character was not a
member of the British royal family. According to the actress,
the parallel was milked for all it was worth. But
whether or not screenwriters had heard rumors of the real
(18:19):
life affair or Paramount just got incredibly lucky, we'll never know. Townsend,
for his part, was not present for the real life
Italian trip. Some background on him. Townsend was a captain
in the Royal Air Force and a decorated World War
II hero. When the King wanted someone from the Royal
(18:42):
Air Force to represent at court, Townsend was recommended to
him to serve as a temporary equerry, which quickly became
a permanent position as the King became fond of him.
He was twenty nine when he was hired, and accomplished
in his military career, but failing from a middle class background,
(19:02):
which made him something of an outsider at court. He
was also notably married, but fourteen year old Margaret is
still said to have quickly developed a crush. The story
goes she told friends she fell in love with him
when she was sixteen on the South African tour, but
to the public, both Margaret and Townshend had claimed there
(19:25):
were no inklings of romance until after he and his
wife separated in nineteen fifty one, and the couple confessed
their love to each other only after his divorce was
granted in nineteen fifty two on the grounds of his
wife's adultery. The relationship carried on privately for about a year,
(19:45):
with those in the nose stressing about its possibilities and
hoping it to be a brief affair. That was until
their accidental public debut at Elizabeth's coronation in June nineteen
fifty three, following the death of their father the year before. There,
photographers caught a glimpse of Margaret brushing a bit of
(20:09):
lint off Townsend's uniform, which was perceived as too intimate
and tender not to be romantic in nature. The secret
was out the next day in papers across the continent
and in America, but the British press actually held off
covering the story as long as they could to remain
(20:30):
in the Palace's favor, as they had done earlier during
the time of Edward and Wallace Simpson. When the People
was finally first to cover the story twelve days later,
they used an old trick to get around the issue
of loyalty by expressing mock outrage at these rumors on
(20:51):
Margaret's behalf. It is quite unthinkable that a royal princess,
third in line of succession to the throne should even
content and plate a marriage with a man who has
been through the divorce courts. Behind the scenes, Margaret and
Townsend had been thinking about marriage, but Elizabeth had advised
(21:11):
them to wait a year, most likely secretly hoping the
relationship would fizzle out, but not wanting to disappoint her
beloved sister. There was also the matter of the Royal
Marriages Act of seventeen seventy two, which meant that until
Margaret was twenty five, she would need Elizabeth's consent to
marry someone of her choice. Once the relationship got the
(21:36):
public's attention, it became a matter not just of royal
gossip but a matter of government, and with both the
government and the Crown opposed to the match, it was
recommended that Townsend be sent away for some time. He
was effectively exiled to Brussels without Margaret's knowledge. But what
(21:57):
did the public really think of the relationship. At the
time of Townsend's exile, the Daily Mirror polled its readers
asking them should they marry? Sixty seven thousand, nine hundred
and seven Mirror readers voted yes, only two thousand, two
hundred and thirty five said no. With the floodgates open,
(22:20):
every paper in the country soon had an opinion on
the marriage, with some arguing that Margaret was setting a
poor example in her potential willingness to defy the Church,
while others considered the church's opinion outdated and supported the
couple as a romance, defying all odds. Others simply considered
(22:42):
it a matter of personal choice. Michael Foot, a future
Labor Party leader, wrote in The Tribune, this intolerable piece
of interference with a girl's private life is all part
of the absurd myth about the Royal family which has
been so sedulously built up by interested parties in recent years.
(23:03):
He argued that the laws of England allowed for divorce
and the royal family was just as subject to those
laws as anyone else behind the scenes. Despite Townsend's forced exit,
those close to the couple would say in the following
years that they were still very much in love and
spoke constantly. This discourse continued for another two years and
(23:27):
reached a climax around Margaret's twenty fifth birthday, which was
the year she would no longer need the monarch's consent
to marry. Come on, Margaret, read the Daily Mail's front
page two days before her birthday. She could end the hubbub.
Will she please make up her mind? In October nineteen
(23:47):
fifty five, only a few months after her birthday, Margaret's
and Townsend officially reunited. But it wasn't a private affair.
Quote The restraint which had until now characterized the British
press in its coverage of the royal persons disappeared forever,
writes biographer THEO. Aronson. The final crisis of the world's
(24:11):
greatest royal romance was played out in the most merciless
of spotlights. En The estate where the two stayed together
was surrounded day and night, complete with airplanes circling above,
and the press would not relent, even in spite of
the Queen's Secretary's please for privacy. Despite the public fervor
(24:35):
in favor of the romance, the government did not relent
its stance against the marriage. They declared that if the
princess insisted on marrying Townshend, then a bill would be
placed in front of Parliament stripping her of all of
her rights, privileges, and income. She would also have to
be married in a civil ceremony and be forced to
(24:58):
live out of the country for the first few years. Ultimately,
despite her, by all accounts, genuine love for Townsend, it
was not the life she wanted. In his memoirs, Townsend wrote, quote,
it was too much to ask of her, too much
for her to give. We would have been left with
nothing but our devotion to face the world. Finally making
(25:23):
a decision, he said, liberated them after several tumultuous years. Quote,
at last we could talk without that crushing weight of
world opinion, the sympathy, the criticism, the pity, and the anger,
all the mass of emotion which had weighed so heavily
on our minds end. Quote. Of those many opinions, Margaret
(25:47):
allegedly later told friends, they were so against us it
almost made me change my mind and marry him after all.
Years later, friends and Townsend came to similar conclusions. Margaret
was simply not ready to be a housewife and a
stepmother to two sons at age twenty five. In the
(26:10):
wake of the Townshend affair, you can imagine the press
only wanted more and more of Margaret. One daily Mirror
headline simply asked, is she sad? Yes? Probably. Margaret coped
with the aftermath by leading a more active social life
than ever, reviving the pre engagement socialite days of the
(26:33):
Margaret set with an even greater emphasis on her love
of live theater and entertainment, though it never quieted down.
The next major frenzy of press to reach Townshend Heights
would come not with her marriage to but her divorce
from Anthony Armstrong Jones. The couple first met in nineteen
(26:56):
fifty eight at a dinner party, and Margaret was drawn
to the man with footholds in both the aristocratic and
artistic worlds. His father was a barrister, his mother a socialite.
In his youth, he found he was not particularly skilled
at school or sports, but he had a unique passion
(27:17):
for photography and had by the point of their meeting
built a career as a celebrated theatrical and portrait photographer.
The couple were able to keep their courtship a secret
from the press, and the announcement of their engagement in
February nineteen sixty came as a surprise. It was framed
(27:38):
as a second chance at happiness after being denied her
marriage to Townsend, and the public finally got their reverse
Cinderella story of a commoner marrying a princess. Not everyone
was thrilled with Antony's relatively humble background. As The Times
put it, there was quote no recent press for the
(28:00):
marriage of one so near the throne, outside the ranks
of international royalty and the British peerage end quote. Their
wedding was the first royal wedding to be televised, as
was fitting for the modern princess and her quote simple
wedding dress was designed by Norman Hartnell, and it was
(28:23):
considered a statement of Margaret's individuality. As a wedding present,
a friend gifted Margaret a plot of land on his
private Caribbean island Moustique, which would become infamously associated with
Margaret years later. To the public. The couple, now known
as the Snowdens after Antony's appointment as the Earl of Snowden,
(28:46):
were favorites, seen as living a sheikh bohemian lifestyle while
the rest of the royal family was stuck in the
Victorian era. They were both interested in fashion and adopted
the maud look, which only led to the couple being
more photographed. They ran in celebrity circles. Margaret befriended Drag
(29:07):
Queen's playwrights. Musicians John Lennon knew the couple as priceless.
Margarine and Bonnie armstrove behind the scenes and two children later.
The marriage was rocky, with Armstrong Jones realizing a bit
too late that he was not fit for a life
of royal engagements, and he yearned to reignite the career
(29:30):
he had been forced to leave behind. Both husband and
wife began to engage in extramarital affairs. By the end
of nineteen sixty six, Margaret was smoking and drinking excessively
to cope with the fracturing relationship. As early as nineteen
sixty seven, the press began to share whispers that there
(29:53):
was trouble in Paradise. A well known royal gossip writer
once admitted to the author, Aim Andrew Duncan, that he
was making up stories about the Snowdens to sell to
foreign magazines. Of course I exaggerate, he claimed, What are
they going to do? Sue me? The instability for the
(30:13):
couple continued four years, but came to a head in
nineteen seventy six when Margaret was photographed swimming on her
private island with a man seventeen years her junior. He
was Roddy Llewellyn, a young landscape gardener and aristocrat. They
had met three years earlier, when she was forty three
(30:34):
and he was twenty five, and he was invited to
lunch with the princess and mutual friends. The two apparently
got on well immediately, and Margaret, having been through so
much emotional turmoil in recent years, was excited at the
prospect of starting something new with the younger man. However,
(30:56):
soon after it began, the affair proved to be too
much for Luella, who had his own history of mental
health struggles. He fled abroad seeking an escape from it,
but eventually came back to check into the care of
a psychiatrist. Margaret, for her part, was devastated by his
departure and took too many sleeping pills. I was so
(31:19):
exhausted because of everything. She later reflected that all I
wanted to do was sleep. Margaret and Roddy were able
to reconcile after both of their healths had improved, and
they resumed what Margaret called their loving friendship. They visited
Margaret's house on Mustique together, where they were photographed by
(31:41):
a photographer who had snuck onto the island posing as
a tourist. Margaret, Roddy, and a couple staying with them
all had gone swimming together, but when the photos were published,
they were cropped to make it look like Margaret and
the young man were alone. They appeared on the front
page of News of the World, and the royal family
(32:04):
was rocked with the scandal they hadn't seen since the
days of Townsend. The press hounded her toy boy, while
politicians took to calling Margaret a royal parasite and a
fluozy who wasted taxpayer money vacationing with younger men. It
was also apparently the final nail in the coffin of
(32:28):
the Snowden marriage, an excuse to finally seek divorce. Of course,
it's now seen as an ironic twist that Margaret's first
major scandal began with a divorce and her second major
scandal ended with one more quote unquote. Serious newspapers took
(32:50):
to blaming the divorce on the gossip rags. Almost since
the day of their marriage, the press, fed by bitchy
society gossip, took a prairie and intrusive interest in their
private life. Noted The Times as Philip Howard, upon the
royal split the princess, he said, was fair game quote
(33:11):
for our national hypocrisy masquerading as morality. The earlier assertion
that the British press forever changed with the Townshend affair
was accurate and representative of the kind of invasiveness royal
women like Princess Diana, Sarah Ferguson and Megan Markle would
(33:31):
one day face. In nineteen seventy eight, shortly after the
divorce was finalized, Margaret fell ill. While she continued to
be involved in the arts and charity works, she struggled
greatly with her health for the remainder of her life
due to her chronic smoking and drinking. Her last public
(33:54):
appearances were at the one hundred and first birthday celebration
of her mother and the one hundredth birthday celebration of
her aunt Alice. Margaret died at age seventy one from
complications after a stroke. Later in life, Margaret herself reflected
on what she felt her role in the public I
(34:15):
was quote in my own humble way. I've always tried
to take some of the burden off of my sister.
She can't do it all, you know, and I leap
at the opportunity to help. Sometimes it can be very
formal and boring. But I've got a reflex against that now.
It's very much up to one not to be bored.
(34:47):
That's the story of Princess Margaret's public life. But keep
listening after a brief sponsor break to hear about one
particularly juicy alleged dalliance. Throughout her lifetime, Margaret was linked
(35:10):
to far more men than I had time to mention today,
but some were so iconic that they deserve special mention.
The rumor mill has long alleged that Llewellyn wasn't the
only man Margaret courted in Mustique. Mick Jagger visited the
island on Margaret's invitation and evidently enjoyed it. So much
(35:30):
that he eventually built a home there. The two met
at a birthday party in the early nineteen seventies, and
while the wording may be different, all sources note that
Margaret's dress was low cut when she made her first
introduction to the singer. They spent the night chatting, and
a source from a Jagger biography alleges that after that
(35:53):
they spoke on the phone constantly, and Margaret invited him
to social events any other women. She found him sexy
and exciting. If you saw them together dancing the way
she'd put her hand on his knee and giggle at
his stories like a schoolgirl, you'd have thought there was
something going on. Neither Margaret nor Mick Jagger have ever
(36:18):
spoken about a relationship, but it said they remained friends
until Margaret's death. Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio
(36:42):
and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankee. Noble Blood is
created and hosted by me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing
and researching by Hannah Johnston, hannah's Wick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender,
and Lori Goodman. The show is edited and produced by
Noemi Griffin and rima Il Kahali with supervising producer Josh
(37:06):
Thain and executive producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Dana Schwartz
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