January 3, 2025 • 35 mins
Have you ever had trouble keeping your New Year’s resolutions? That might have something to do with the science and psychology behind motivation. Ayelet Fishbach joins us on the show to talk about how to motivate yourself to set and achieve goals in the New Year. She's a professor at the University of Chicago who studies social psychology, management, and consumer behavior — and the author of the book “Get It Done: Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation."
Need some extra help? Download your FREE 2025 Action Plan at DanielleRobay.com and make this the year you go all in on YOU.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hey fam we are one week into the new year,
Happy twenty twenty five, and if you're already feeling overwhelmed
by those New Year's resolutions, then this is the show
for you. Today we're joined by author Isolette Fishback. She's
a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago,
and she wrote the book Get It Done, Surprising Lessons
from the Science of Motivation. So today she's going to
(00:25):
be breaking down that science for us, plus explaining what
the middle problem is and why it blocks momentum. And
she's sharing why the best kept secret to motivation might
just be a whole lot of joy.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
It's Friday, January third, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I can't believe I'm saying that.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm Danielle Robe, I'm Simone Boys and this is the
bright Side from Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we
gather together to share women's stories, laugh, learn and brighten
your day.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
See money, Happy New Year.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
We made it. We made it to twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I can't believe I live in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
It sounds futuristic, doesn't it?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Like what year were you born?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Nineteen eighty eight?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Okay, I was born in nineteen ninety one, and I
remember my cousin was born in like twenty thirteen, and
I thought, whoa, Yeah, kids are being born.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
In twenty twenty five. That's the future.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah. It happens every now and then while I'll be
out at a party or something and I'll meet someone
who was born in like the year two thousand something,
and I'm like, whoa, I have to go home now
that I feel so old.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Maybe it's a party you shouldn't be at.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's a sign from the universe that I need to
go home and be with my kids.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
It's true.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I'm so excited. I feel like we're living in the future.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
We really are.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
So to all of our besties out there, we hope
that your holidays brought you some magic, whatever that is
for you.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Maybe it's rest that you've been needing.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Maybe it's that dream trip you've been talking about for years.
Maybe it's just soaking up time and laughter with the
people you love most. Whatever it was, we're so glad
you're here, and we're really ready to start this new
trip together with you.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So let's make it a beautiful year. I love the
sound of that. Danielle Well, now that we're stepping into
the new year. I know there are a lot of
folks out there making resolutions, looking for that fresh start. Yeah,
so it feels like the perfect day to talk all
about motivation.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Oh yeah, I mean, here's the thing about the new year.
It feels like a fresh start. But then all of
a sudden, January third today comes along and it's overwhelming
and kind of daunting because there's all these things that
we're wanting to achieve and accomplish. And I think even
the word resolutions can feel daunting.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
That's why I don't use it.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
What do you use goals?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I like to set a word for the year, and
you do that too, Yeah, and so everything is filtered.
You call it an intention, called a word, but everything
is filtered through that word.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
For me, Yes, I do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I have this goal setting process and it's an amalgamation
of all of my favorite goal setting thinkers. So like
I take certain things from Mel certain things from Tony
Robbins where the they have the last name, all the
roll the Robins, I've taken things. Actually, there's a part
I took from Jen Atkin, the hairstylist. She always has
this question that she shares online that I love so
(03:12):
like there's it's an amalgamation of like six people's goal setting,
vision boarding, manifestation tool kit, whatever you want to call it,
and it's what has worked for me.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
One of those things is a word.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
But I put it together as a free download this
year for the very first time, so you can get
it on my website. Uh, it's just Danielle Robay dot
com and download it for free if you're feeling like
you're wanting to set yourself off right for the new year.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I love this.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I can't wait to try this worksheet. It's so great
to have an actionable resource.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I know, I'm just thinking, like, worksheet is such a
horrible word, Like it's we have to think.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Of the new one. No quiz is the term manifestation map.
Now now you're getting alienated. You Now I'm outside of
your demo toolkit too, klit. I'm here for a toolkit,
you know. I like to diy dy your life with
Danielle's toolkit dihy with Danielle. Well, all jokes aside. I
(04:10):
wanted to ask you something. I've noticed that I have
the best years whenever I start with a really joyful January. Wow.
Whenever I'm really intentional about being joyful and like gathering
with people who make me joyful from the start of
the year, I feel like it sets the tone.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
That's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm curious, like, what have you found really sets the
tone for the rest of your year.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, I'm a little bit spooked that you said joyful,
because joy is actually my word of the year. And
usually I have intense words, like last year it was
it started off as discipline and then I changed it
and it turned into worth, which are intense.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
This year is joy.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, so I don't I'm not superstitious, but I've had
New Years where I've like cried or I've been alone,
and whether that by choice or not, like it's it's
definitely not how I wanted.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
To spend the new year.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
And so now I'm trying, I try to be really
thoughtful about how I'm ringing in the new year, because
I do think it can set off how you're feeling.
And you know, it could ring in January one, and
if it wasn't great, you can still make January two awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
But I'm with you.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I think ringing it in with laughter or a little
adventure honestly, doing something that sort of plays into whatever
your word for the year is is kind of awesome.
Did you choose your word yet? The word that's really
on my mind this year is desire? Oh but not much.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Well no, Actually, my favorite smut book is coming out
this month, the next inflation of it. But that's not
why I'm saying desire. I'm saying desire because it's a
it's a sensation that we often ignore as women, and
I'm all about getting back in touch with it.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
That is so awesome. We're gonna have to offline about
how you're going to get into your desires some out.
I love this for you.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
How off do you want to off?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Girl?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Wait, what's your year?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
So your word of the year is joyful? So you
have to have a joyful January.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, we got to have a joyful January.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
For everybody out there who's thinks we're crazy, I'm telling you,
picking a.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Word is it.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Here's what I'll say. We all pick a word. We
have resolutions, goals, uh, whatever you want to call them.
But by the end of December, most of us are
burnt out, exhausted, tired. Those are the words. Okay, So
I heard Kat, who's the CEO of AG one, say
(06:47):
pick a feeling. How do you want to feel at
the end of the year, Because if you're not playing
into that throughout the year, it's just going to lead
to burnout and all the things we usually rely on.
So that word joy that I'm choosing, I want to
feel joyful. December twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, can I change mine? Please? I want to change
my I still like the idea of centering desire for
me personally this year, but I'm going to be thinking
about what is the feeling version of that yes? What
is the yes feeling that rebel? You'll stop trying to
bring this into the gutter. This is an upstanding, wholesome
family show, Okay, But you know what's really interesting is
(07:27):
last year my word was open. Ooh, last year my
word was open. And I am telling you it was
like a prophecy because my whole entire heart life world
blew open, exploded open last year. Wow.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, And you were open to new opportunities, new people,
new experiences.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
You really were open.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And I chose the word open on such a deeply
personal level, having nothing to do with career at all. Yeah,
just like me as a human being wanting to remain open.
And it's just really powerful that these words can become
reality for us.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
And I think one of the words that comes up
a lot around New Year's is motivation. So today we're
going to be talking to someone who's been studying the
science of motivation.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
For you, how do we get to our goals?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Science?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Give me the science we gotta stay motivated.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
So she's both a researcher and an author, and she
has the research back tools to help us set the
right goals and tee us up for that lasting success.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, we're talking about isle At Fishback. She is an
expert on motivation and decision making, y'all. Her groundbreaking research
earns her the Society of Experimental Social Psychology's Best Dissertation Award,
and she's currently a professor at the University of Chicago
where she studies all of this, including social psychology and
consumer behavior.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Her book Get It Done.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation is an incredible
resource for anyone who considers themselves goal oriented.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I think we should bring her in. I let Fishback,
Welcome to the bright Side.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Thank you so much. For having me pleasure to be
here today.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
We're so grateful that you're sharing your time with us.
Simone and I are both excited to talk about motivation.
For you, that is your area of research, the science
of motivation. So before we get into all of the
science terms, I'm wondering how this became your area of expertise.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Kind of by accident. How everything or mostly everything happens
in life. Right, So, I was a quadiate student in
the nineties at Television University, and I was curious about motivation.
The only problem was that I was studying social psychology
(09:45):
and it wasn't quite a popular topic back then. And
so I somehow converse my PhD advisor that we should
study self control. And I really wanted to understand self
control andvation because I was graduated soon trying to figure
out things, and I realized that I really need to
(10:07):
motivate myself somehow. Then you know, that was early two thousand,
so I can say now that I've been doing it
for many, many years and never found a reason to
move to the next thing.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
It's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
I share your interest in motivation, and I'm so excited
to talk to you today because I think it's something
that you can really demystify for us. But you said
something that I had to follow up on, which is
that you started out studying self control, which led you
into motivation. What have you learned about the connection between
the two topics.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
So self control is the kind of internal conflict where
you know you should be doing something, but you are
very tempted to do something else. Motivation is so much
more than self control. It's setting a goal, it's getting
excited about your goals, is being intrinsically motivated. So there
(11:02):
is a lot more to motivation. You can think of
self control a bitaus as a dark side, is overcoming
this part of yourself that you don't want to go there.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
So when I think about motivation, the word that comes
to my mind is discipline. But you've written extensively about
the idea that motivation is not about being strong, it's
about being wise. So what about that distinction is important
to understand how we become motivated.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
So we as a field, we started understanding motivation originally
is something that some people had and some people did
not have. Kay And so the early research, going back
to the marshmallow test, really try to understand who does
it and who does not? Okay, who's the key that
(11:53):
conceits in front of a marshmallow and not id it?
Predicting that it will go up to be success? So
very much what you call discipline. Later on research evolved
into much more of a strength model. The metaphor was
a muscle, and some people presumably have this strong muscle
(12:14):
and they can stay on task. Others are weaker and
they will give up. As it turned out, there is
a limited evidence that some people just have better will
power than others. Where I believe we search is moving
is more toward that some people just have better strategies.
(12:35):
Many people learn through life how to get themselves from
one place to another, so we can learn how to
motivate ourselves. And as with anything else that involves learning,
we can do it more quickly if we pay attention.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Is it a one size fits all thing or do
different things motivate different people?
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Different things motivate different people on more than one level.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
One thing is that different people have different goals. What
you want to achieve in your life is different than
what anybody else wants to achieve in their life. It's
really is a personal journey. But there are many basic
strategies that you just open the menu, there will be
(13:21):
something for you.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So I want to get into some of the tools
that you've outlined in your work, and I want to
pinpoint something that you said about creating motivation. You write
that quote you should change your circumstances or change the
way you think about your circumstances. I've heard people use
this framework when talking about body image. But you can
(13:44):
change your body, or you can change the way you
view your body. That's obviously a very catchy refrain. But
what does the science say about the role of circumstances
in effective motivation.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
We respond to our situation. We are social animals. We
live in groups. I respond to what is around me. Now,
you can sometimes change the situation. You want to change
your body, well, you can change the food that is
around you. You can make active lifestyle more of a possibility.
(14:21):
You can also change the way you frame these things.
So you want to be healthier and you also want
to be successful at work. Okay, you can think about
how these might help each other instead of how they
are conflicting. We recently found that mothers more than fathers,
(14:45):
tend to perceive a conflict between work and their family goals.
What's going on here? Well, we probably learned from society
that as mothers we need to spend time with our children.
So when we are at walk, this takes time away
for children. Hence we are failing them. Where is Dad's
(15:06):
learned from society that they need to financially support your children,
and when they are at work they are doing exactly that.
So good, no conflict. Now, conflict can feel bad. Conflict
can lead to poor mental health. And so we say, well,
why don't you change the way you think about these goals? Okay,
(15:29):
why don't you realize that being at walk actually supports
your family? Also as a mother, maybe you our role
model and just understanding that you have control on how
you frame your goals, your progress. The relationship between things
means that you can change your motivation.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
What do you think the difference is between intention and motivation?
And I think a good example of this is I
have the best intentions to get up early and get
some exercise, and then my alarm goes off and I'm thinking,
maybe I should just sleep a bit more.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
Intention is the first part. Okay, so you want something
which is great you had a plan, it's not enough.
It just starts.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
Now we can ask, well, you have the intention, but
are their barriers?
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (16:25):
For example, when did you go to sleep last night?
You don't have to answer that you need a full
night sleep?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
So the intention is not going to translate into action
if there was no advanced planning that should allow that.
The intention needs to fit with everything else that you
schedule for the day. We are constantly over scheduling and
then give up and say there is no way I
(16:51):
can fit into my day all these plans. So again,
the intention is just not enough.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
Let's start there.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
It has to be like a realistic expectation for yourself.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
You're saying realistic, but a bit of simistic.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
If you walk hard and no huge surprises, you will
be able to achieve it.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Well, I'm curious how this translates into this season because
everybody's buzzing about resolutions and setting fresh goals for the
year ahead around this time, and in your book you
talk about goals as powerful tools. How do we make
sure that we're aiming for goals that truly align with
who we are?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yees?
Speaker 5 (17:31):
So a new year is when people set the resolutions.
We now have thousands of people with whom we've followed
up over the course of a year to see who's
going to stick to the resolutions, what kind of resolutions
tend to walk. To answer your question about setting the
(17:51):
right resolution, this needs to be a resolution that is
intrinsically motivating. That is something that you are looking forward
to doing, and not something you wish you had already conflicted,
something you wish you had already done. If you are
participanting in our experiment, we are going to ask you
(18:12):
in January, what are your resolutions?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
But as it turned out, was predicts.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Whether people will stick to these resolutions is only how
excited they feel when they do this, how much they
enjoy pursuing them, how much they want to be the
person who is doing it importance, how much you wish
you already had it done. Predicts absolutely nothing in our
(18:39):
way of very large data.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
That's interesting. So if I give you an example. Last year,
my goal was to get into the best shape that
I've ever been in physically, and there were a lot
of times where I didn't want to show up to
the gym. But my word for the year was disciplined,
and so it was more important to me to keep
my word to myself than it was actually get to
the gym.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
So I went great.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So you're saying, that's the part that you like, that's
the joy, that's.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
The joy, And the way you framed it is that
you wanted to be the person who goes to the gym.
So it was not just by the end of the year.
I want to look back and say, oh, I am
in a great shape. You wanted to do the work.
You were eager to be doing this. Now, how much
(19:29):
did you like the gym? How much fun was it
to be there or was it horrible?
Speaker 1 (19:34):
No, it was actually really fun.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
So this is the enjoyment part, because you could have
done the same thing but set some kind of exercise
or routine that wouldn't fit with you, that would make
you ache and I don't know, be too hot, too cold,
too board, and that this kind of a solution would
(19:56):
be something that people would report stopping around February or much.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I love the idea that the reason we complete goals
is because they're joyful or fun.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I would have never thought of that.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
Yeah, yes, this is because we usually set them thinking
that this is good in the long run. Not something
that will be immediately enjoyable. It's good in the long run.
As humans, we can really think ahead, right, We can
think like dozens of years ahead and plan for the
long run, but we still care a lot about the
(20:32):
immediate experience. And if something doesn't feel good, that's not
going to walk out.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So, just to recap Professor freshback, you're saying that of
the patients that you reviewed who said a new year's resolution,
the ones who kept them are the ones who are
able to maintain a level of excitement throughout the goal timeframe.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
Yes, and we call this intrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation is
the motivation that comes from doing It is something that
you get because you want to engage in the action itself.
And we contrast this with ex treinsic motivation, which is
what you get from completing the goal. The extent to
(21:16):
which people find these intrinsic motivators in their long term goals.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
They will be able to stick with them.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
So to give you an example, we went a study
in which we invited high school students to bring intrinsic
motivation to doing math. Okay, we actually help them. Okay,
we bought color pencils, we put music in the classroom.
We even got some snacks.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Okay. The teachers did not like us very much.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
Okay, but the students who are very engaged in doing math, okay,
we just made it into something that is more interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
That is fun.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
Maybe it's not on the level of the most fun
thing in the world.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
But it feels good. It feels good to do that.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
And this is where you can get people to engage.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
We've got to take a short break, but we'll be
right back with io lot fishback and we're back with
iolt fishback. Okay. So we've established that excitement, feeling, that
(22:27):
visceral sense of excitement is really essential for motivation. Is
there a way to manufacture excitement when it doesn't come organically?
Is there a shortcut to this?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (22:39):
Yeah, they fake it till you make it.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Not quite, But.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Many times you need to recognize that excitement will not
happen immediately.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
So I say that people are going to persist on
something that they don't change it. They motivate to do
that feels good, However, men, because will not feel good
when you start doing this. And so if I can
stay with that, gym exercise for a moment. If you
start a new routine, most likely your body is going
(23:12):
to respond with oh no, what are you doing to me?
And it will take the good five ten times before
it will feel good. This is not just a physiological thing.
We when studies with improved students, the classes were run
by the Second City, which is an improve club here
(23:34):
in the city of Chicago. When people start improved, and
I don't know if you ever try that, it feels
very awkward. Okay, when your guy tells you, you know,
take the stage and just act and everybody is looking
at you, I don't know about you.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
I want to just disappear. It doesn't feel good.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
And given that it will take time to feel good
and to become truly true motivating, you need to let
yourself feel uncomfortable before it starts feeling comfortable. And so
the intervention that we ran is we told people, you
know what you just started. Your goal right now is
to feel uncomfortable. Okay, it's kind of the opposite of
(24:17):
what I said before. I said, you will stick to
it if it feels good, if you're excited, But if
you're just starting heavy, your goal is feeling uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
Until you get there.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
I want to build on that journey of motivation. Maybe
the gym example is just a good one to go
off of because it's so tangible. We feel motivated at
the beginning. You see everybody at the gym in January,
maybe a little bit in February. And then there's the struggle.
You talk about it as the middle problem.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Yet it's hard to maintain goals over time.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
It's for many of us.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
We start with a lot of enthusiasm. If the goal
has a clear end date, then often enthusiasm increases.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Kay, I know.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
I sometimes give you example of making the last purchase.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
On a loyalty program.
Speaker 5 (25:11):
You will make it, Okay, you will get this reward
whatever that is. Gay finishing that, the last chapter of
a book, you will finish it. You want to know
what happens. It's in the middle when we see motivation declining.
And this is because it's hard to feel like you
make pogess okay that your first week.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Wow, I already did my first week.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
Okay last week, I'm just like one week from finishing
this program. In the middle, I went to the gym
and I didn't really feel like that move the needle
there is not much feeling of pogwess, and without pogus,
it is very hard to stay more with.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
So let's talk about restrictive goals like cutting back on
alcohol dry January. That's a very popular trend. What are
the best ways to overcome temptation when the goal is
actually limiting something that we're used to doing.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
Yeah, so these are very difficult goals. It's going to
be a hard first because it's not intrinsic. Okay, it
is never its own end okay, and end by itself gay,
it's something that you take off your plate. Okay, you
don't do, and it's less exciting. And second, monitoring success
(26:35):
on these goals requires that you bring the forbidding thought
or the forbidding object back to your mind. Basically, how
do you know that you are not drinking alcohol?
Speaker 4 (26:47):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (26:47):
You ask yourself? Have I been drinking alcohol? And now
you think about it?
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (26:53):
With a romantic relationship, that's a classic okay, like how
do you know that you are no longer thinking about
your ex?
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Ask yourself? Have I been thinking about my ex recently? Well?
Now you do okay. And so by that.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Process of monitoring these goals, you keep bringing to mind
what you are trying not to do. So we're talking
about avoidance goes there are very hard to pursue. They're
not very motivating. A few solutions try to replace it
with something okay, So it's not about not doing that thing,
(27:28):
it's about doing another thing okay. And if you can
do the replacement, you are going to be more excited.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
You're going to feel better about that goal.
Speaker 5 (27:40):
Another strategy is to think about these causes temporary because
they tend to feel urgent.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
That is, if I tell you that you.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
Should stop doing something, you usually believe that you should
stop doing it today. If I say that you should
stop drinking alcohol, you take it as how about right now?
So this is good. It seem elgent. And to the
extent that we can just think about thisy just like started.
(28:09):
They just like see where it takes you, okay. The
goal is not to do it for or not to
do it for the rest of your life. Is just
to be able not to do it for a little bit,
for some time and then get better control over whatever
it is.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
What do you think about replacing it with something else?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
Yes, that's the best avoidance goals with that food often
tend to fail for the reason that they bring to
mind the food that you're trying to avoid, and so
we often recommand replacement.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
It's not about not.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
Eating the cake. It's about eating the berries. It's not
about not drinking this, it's about drinking that.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
It's time for another short break.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
But we'll be right back with our conversation about motivation
with Islet Fishback, and we're back with Iolette Fishback. I
had a mentor who taught me something that actually has
worked for me. But I'm curious what you think and
(29:16):
if there's any research behind it. He says, he calls
it I do not So he says, I do not
eat sugar, I do not drink soda. I do not
hang up the phone on anybody. And he has a
list of things he does not do. I'm curious what
you think about it.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Is it exciting for this mentor?
Speaker 3 (29:41):
I guess maybe to say I do not eat sugar
makes him feel in control or disciplined.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
I'm not sure exactly exactly.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
So this is where I'm going, right So, like.
Speaker 5 (29:51):
If if you feel in contrall, if you feel good
about all that these do not.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
I'm sure the line between.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
A long list of do not and feeling a little
bit ocd about it. And you know, just going through
all these goals without passion nor excitement is blurry to me.
So I want people to post your clothes that make
them feel good. One thing that we did discover in
(30:25):
our studies is that people have those strategies and they
often walk. So if someone tells me that something walks
for them, go for it.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
That is so amazing.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Here's my question for you.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
There are different things that work for different people. How
can you determine?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
What is your advice for helping us all find that spark?
What should we be paying attention to in our lives
to find out what really motivates us?
Speaker 5 (30:51):
I say there are four areas that you should explore.
Have you set the right goal?
Speaker 1 (30:58):
They?
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Are you monitoring progress correctly? Can you tell me where
you are on that particular goal? What about other goals?
How this thing fits with everything else? And number four,
do you have social support? Other people around you that
are with you, that are helping you, that are willing
(31:19):
to support you when you're unhappy with your progress? Ask that, say,
you look around you, what are the other people at
the gym do?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Here?
Speaker 5 (31:29):
What my family thinks about me going to the gym
and what everybody else is doing. In particular, for these
individual goals where it seems like we can do it
by ourselves, we realize that we don't do anything by ourselves.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
If others are.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
Not around us, they are in our head, and it's
important that they.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Are supportive that they care.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
I don't think that they actually monitor what you did,
but you need to believe that it's important for them
that you do well. If your mom doesn't believe that
you can do it, it makes it much harder.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
This conversation has been so eye opening. I've always loved
the topic of motivation, and if our besties want more,
they can read it in your book, which is called
Get It Done. Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation.
We would be remiss if we didn't ask you, what's
motivating you this year in twenty twenty five. Is there
a word, or an intention or a prayer that you've
(32:32):
set to kickstart your own personal motivation?
Speaker 4 (32:35):
So is many many things that I would like.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
To do in twenty twenty five, but this morning I
was thinking, the one thing that I really want to
figure out is how to think about strategies to create
greater How many between goals? How do we get people
to understand that the various goals that you have in
your life complete you and compliment each other. They don't
(33:03):
create a conflict necessarily, they create har money. Hopefully in
a year I will be able to say something more
than a sentence about.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
That, Professor Fishback, thank you so much for joining us
on the bright Side.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
Thank you for having me, and no good luck to
you and everyone else with their goals in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Hmmm, that's such a nice wish. Thank you, Professor Fishback.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
I Let Fishback is a professor of behavioral science at
the University of Chicago and the author.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Of the book Get It Done.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
That's it for today's show. On Monday, we're tapping into
the incredible power of mentorship with Dolores Morton, the CEO
of the mentorship nonprofit Step Up.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The bright
Side is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts,
and it is exactecutive produced by Reese Witherspoon.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Production by Arcana Audio. Our producers are Jessica Wank, Krista Ripple,
and Amy Padula. Our senior producers It's I Kintania and
our engineer is PJ. Shahamat.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Arcana's executive producers are Francis Harlowe and Abby Ruzka.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Arcana's head of production is Matt Schultz.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Natalie Tulluck and Maureen Polo are the executive producers for
Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Julia Weaver is the supervising producer, and Ali Perry is
the executive producer.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
For iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Tim Palazzola is our showrunner. This week's episodes were recorded
by Graham Gibson and Joel Morales.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Our theme song is by Anna Stump and Hamilton lighthauser.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Special thanks to Connell Byrne and Will Pearson.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I'm Simone Boyce. You can find me at Simone Boyce
on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
And I'm Danielle Robey on Instagram and TikTok. That's ro
Ba y We'll.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
See you Monday. Y'all. Keep looking on the bright side.
Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hey fam we are one week into the new year,
Happy twenty twenty five, and if you're already feeling overwhelmed
by those New Year's resolutions, then this is the show
for you. Today we're joined by author Isolette Fishback. She's
a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago,
and she wrote the book Get It Done, Surprising Lessons
from the Science of Motivation. So today she's going to
(00:25):
be breaking down that science for us, plus explaining what
the middle problem is and why it blocks momentum. And
she's sharing why the best kept secret to motivation might
just be a whole lot of joy.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
It's Friday, January third, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I can't believe I'm saying that.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm Danielle Robe, I'm Simone Boys and this is the
bright Side from Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we
gather together to share women's stories, laugh, learn and brighten
your day.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
See money, Happy New Year.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
We made it. We made it to twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I can't believe I live in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
It sounds futuristic, doesn't it?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Like what year were you born?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Nineteen eighty eight?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Okay, I was born in nineteen ninety one, and I
remember my cousin was born in like twenty thirteen, and
I thought, whoa, Yeah, kids are being born.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
In twenty twenty five. That's the future.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah. It happens every now and then while I'll be
out at a party or something and I'll meet someone
who was born in like the year two thousand something,
and I'm like, whoa, I have to go home now
that I feel so old.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Maybe it's a party you shouldn't be at.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's a sign from the universe that I need to
go home and be with my kids.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
It's true.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I'm so excited. I feel like we're living in the future.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
We really are.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
So to all of our besties out there, we hope
that your holidays brought you some magic, whatever that is
for you.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Maybe it's rest that you've been needing.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Maybe it's that dream trip you've been talking about for years.
Maybe it's just soaking up time and laughter with the
people you love most. Whatever it was, we're so glad
you're here, and we're really ready to start this new
trip together with you.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So let's make it a beautiful year. I love the
sound of that. Danielle Well, now that we're stepping into
the new year. I know there are a lot of
folks out there making resolutions, looking for that fresh start. Yeah,
so it feels like the perfect day to talk all
about motivation.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Oh yeah, I mean, here's the thing about the new year.
It feels like a fresh start. But then all of
a sudden, January third today comes along and it's overwhelming
and kind of daunting because there's all these things that
we're wanting to achieve and accomplish. And I think even
the word resolutions can feel daunting.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
That's why I don't use it.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
What do you use goals?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I like to set a word for the year, and
you do that too, Yeah, and so everything is filtered.
You call it an intention, called a word, but everything
is filtered through that word.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
For me, Yes, I do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I have this goal setting process and it's an amalgamation
of all of my favorite goal setting thinkers. So like
I take certain things from Mel certain things from Tony
Robbins where the they have the last name, all the
roll the Robins, I've taken things. Actually, there's a part
I took from Jen Atkin, the hairstylist. She always has
this question that she shares online that I love so
(03:12):
like there's it's an amalgamation of like six people's goal setting,
vision boarding, manifestation tool kit, whatever you want to call it,
and it's what has worked for me.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
One of those things is a word.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
But I put it together as a free download this
year for the very first time, so you can get
it on my website. Uh, it's just Danielle Robay dot
com and download it for free if you're feeling like
you're wanting to set yourself off right for the new year.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I love this.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I can't wait to try this worksheet. It's so great
to have an actionable resource.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I know, I'm just thinking, like, worksheet is such a
horrible word, Like it's we have to think.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Of the new one. No quiz is the term manifestation map.
Now now you're getting alienated. You Now I'm outside of
your demo toolkit too, klit. I'm here for a toolkit,
you know. I like to diy dy your life with
Danielle's toolkit dihy with Danielle. Well, all jokes aside. I
(04:10):
wanted to ask you something. I've noticed that I have
the best years whenever I start with a really joyful January. Wow.
Whenever I'm really intentional about being joyful and like gathering
with people who make me joyful from the start of
the year, I feel like it sets the tone.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
That's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm curious, like, what have you found really sets the
tone for the rest of your year.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, I'm a little bit spooked that you said joyful,
because joy is actually my word of the year. And
usually I have intense words, like last year it was
it started off as discipline and then I changed it
and it turned into worth, which are intense.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
This year is joy.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, so I don't I'm not superstitious, but I've had
New Years where I've like cried or I've been alone,
and whether that by choice or not, like it's it's
definitely not how I wanted.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
To spend the new year.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
And so now I'm trying, I try to be really
thoughtful about how I'm ringing in the new year, because
I do think it can set off how you're feeling.
And you know, it could ring in January one, and
if it wasn't great, you can still make January two awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
But I'm with you.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I think ringing it in with laughter or a little
adventure honestly, doing something that sort of plays into whatever
your word for the year is is kind of awesome.
Did you choose your word yet? The word that's really
on my mind this year is desire? Oh but not much.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Well no, Actually, my favorite smut book is coming out
this month, the next inflation of it. But that's not
why I'm saying desire. I'm saying desire because it's a
it's a sensation that we often ignore as women, and
I'm all about getting back in touch with it.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
That is so awesome. We're gonna have to offline about
how you're going to get into your desires some out.
I love this for you.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
How off do you want to off?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Girl?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Wait, what's your year?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
So your word of the year is joyful? So you
have to have a joyful January.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, we got to have a joyful January.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
For everybody out there who's thinks we're crazy, I'm telling you,
picking a.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Word is it.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Here's what I'll say. We all pick a word. We
have resolutions, goals, uh, whatever you want to call them.
But by the end of December, most of us are
burnt out, exhausted, tired. Those are the words. Okay, So
I heard Kat, who's the CEO of AG one, say
(06:47):
pick a feeling. How do you want to feel at
the end of the year, Because if you're not playing
into that throughout the year, it's just going to lead
to burnout and all the things we usually rely on.
So that word joy that I'm choosing, I want to
feel joyful. December twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, can I change mine? Please? I want to change
my I still like the idea of centering desire for
me personally this year, but I'm going to be thinking
about what is the feeling version of that yes? What
is the yes feeling that rebel? You'll stop trying to
bring this into the gutter. This is an upstanding, wholesome
family show, Okay, But you know what's really interesting is
(07:27):
last year my word was open. Ooh, last year my
word was open. And I am telling you it was
like a prophecy because my whole entire heart life world
blew open, exploded open last year. Wow.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, And you were open to new opportunities, new people,
new experiences.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
You really were open.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And I chose the word open on such a deeply
personal level, having nothing to do with career at all. Yeah,
just like me as a human being wanting to remain open.
And it's just really powerful that these words can become
reality for us.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
And I think one of the words that comes up
a lot around New Year's is motivation. So today we're
going to be talking to someone who's been studying the
science of motivation.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
For you, how do we get to our goals?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Science?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Give me the science we gotta stay motivated.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
So she's both a researcher and an author, and she
has the research back tools to help us set the
right goals and tee us up for that lasting success.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, we're talking about isle At Fishback. She is an
expert on motivation and decision making, y'all. Her groundbreaking research
earns her the Society of Experimental Social Psychology's Best Dissertation Award,
and she's currently a professor at the University of Chicago
where she studies all of this, including social psychology and
consumer behavior.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Her book Get It Done.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation is an incredible
resource for anyone who considers themselves goal oriented.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I think we should bring her in. I let Fishback,
Welcome to the bright Side.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Thank you so much. For having me pleasure to be
here today.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
We're so grateful that you're sharing your time with us.
Simone and I are both excited to talk about motivation.
For you, that is your area of research, the science
of motivation. So before we get into all of the
science terms, I'm wondering how this became your area of expertise.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Kind of by accident. How everything or mostly everything happens
in life. Right, So, I was a quadiate student in
the nineties at Television University, and I was curious about motivation.
The only problem was that I was studying social psychology
(09:45):
and it wasn't quite a popular topic back then. And
so I somehow converse my PhD advisor that we should
study self control. And I really wanted to understand self
control andvation because I was graduated soon trying to figure
out things, and I realized that I really need to
(10:07):
motivate myself somehow. Then you know, that was early two thousand,
so I can say now that I've been doing it
for many, many years and never found a reason to
move to the next thing.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
It's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
I share your interest in motivation, and I'm so excited
to talk to you today because I think it's something
that you can really demystify for us. But you said
something that I had to follow up on, which is
that you started out studying self control, which led you
into motivation. What have you learned about the connection between
the two topics.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
So self control is the kind of internal conflict where
you know you should be doing something, but you are
very tempted to do something else. Motivation is so much
more than self control. It's setting a goal, it's getting
excited about your goals, is being intrinsically motivated. So there
(11:02):
is a lot more to motivation. You can think of
self control a bitaus as a dark side, is overcoming
this part of yourself that you don't want to go there.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
So when I think about motivation, the word that comes
to my mind is discipline. But you've written extensively about
the idea that motivation is not about being strong, it's
about being wise. So what about that distinction is important
to understand how we become motivated.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
So we as a field, we started understanding motivation originally
is something that some people had and some people did
not have. Kay And so the early research, going back
to the marshmallow test, really try to understand who does
it and who does not? Okay, who's the key that
(11:53):
conceits in front of a marshmallow and not id it?
Predicting that it will go up to be success? So
very much what you call discipline. Later on research evolved
into much more of a strength model. The metaphor was
a muscle, and some people presumably have this strong muscle
(12:14):
and they can stay on task. Others are weaker and
they will give up. As it turned out, there is
a limited evidence that some people just have better will
power than others. Where I believe we search is moving
is more toward that some people just have better strategies.
(12:35):
Many people learn through life how to get themselves from
one place to another, so we can learn how to
motivate ourselves. And as with anything else that involves learning,
we can do it more quickly if we pay attention.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Is it a one size fits all thing or do
different things motivate different people?
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Absolutely?
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Different things motivate different people on more than one level.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
One thing is that different people have different goals. What
you want to achieve in your life is different than
what anybody else wants to achieve in their life. It's
really is a personal journey. But there are many basic
strategies that you just open the menu, there will be
(13:21):
something for you.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So I want to get into some of the tools
that you've outlined in your work, and I want to
pinpoint something that you said about creating motivation. You write
that quote you should change your circumstances or change the
way you think about your circumstances. I've heard people use
this framework when talking about body image. But you can
(13:44):
change your body, or you can change the way you
view your body. That's obviously a very catchy refrain. But
what does the science say about the role of circumstances
in effective motivation.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
We respond to our situation. We are social animals. We
live in groups. I respond to what is around me. Now,
you can sometimes change the situation. You want to change
your body, well, you can change the food that is
around you. You can make active lifestyle more of a possibility.
(14:21):
You can also change the way you frame these things.
So you want to be healthier and you also want
to be successful at work. Okay, you can think about
how these might help each other instead of how they
are conflicting. We recently found that mothers more than fathers,
(14:45):
tend to perceive a conflict between work and their family goals.
What's going on here? Well, we probably learned from society
that as mothers we need to spend time with our children.
So when we are at walk, this takes time away
for children. Hence we are failing them. Where is Dad's
(15:06):
learned from society that they need to financially support your children,
and when they are at work they are doing exactly that.
So good, no conflict. Now, conflict can feel bad. Conflict
can lead to poor mental health. And so we say, well,
why don't you change the way you think about these goals? Okay,
(15:29):
why don't you realize that being at walk actually supports
your family? Also as a mother, maybe you our role
model and just understanding that you have control on how
you frame your goals, your progress. The relationship between things
means that you can change your motivation.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
What do you think the difference is between intention and motivation?
And I think a good example of this is I
have the best intentions to get up early and get
some exercise, and then my alarm goes off and I'm thinking,
maybe I should just sleep a bit more.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
Intention is the first part. Okay, so you want something
which is great you had a plan, it's not enough.
It just starts.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
Now we can ask, well, you have the intention, but
are their barriers?
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (16:25):
For example, when did you go to sleep last night?
You don't have to answer that you need a full
night sleep?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
So the intention is not going to translate into action
if there was no advanced planning that should allow that.
The intention needs to fit with everything else that you
schedule for the day. We are constantly over scheduling and
then give up and say there is no way I
(16:51):
can fit into my day all these plans. So again,
the intention is just not enough.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
Let's start there.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
It has to be like a realistic expectation for yourself.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
You're saying realistic, but a bit of simistic.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
If you walk hard and no huge surprises, you will
be able to achieve it.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Well, I'm curious how this translates into this season because
everybody's buzzing about resolutions and setting fresh goals for the
year ahead around this time, and in your book you
talk about goals as powerful tools. How do we make
sure that we're aiming for goals that truly align with
who we are?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yees?
Speaker 5 (17:31):
So a new year is when people set the resolutions.
We now have thousands of people with whom we've followed
up over the course of a year to see who's
going to stick to the resolutions, what kind of resolutions
tend to walk. To answer your question about setting the
(17:51):
right resolution, this needs to be a resolution that is
intrinsically motivating. That is something that you are looking forward
to doing, and not something you wish you had already conflicted,
something you wish you had already done. If you are
participanting in our experiment, we are going to ask you
(18:12):
in January, what are your resolutions?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
But as it turned out, was predicts.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Whether people will stick to these resolutions is only how
excited they feel when they do this, how much they
enjoy pursuing them, how much they want to be the
person who is doing it importance, how much you wish
you already had it done. Predicts absolutely nothing in our
(18:39):
way of very large data.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
That's interesting. So if I give you an example. Last year,
my goal was to get into the best shape that
I've ever been in physically, and there were a lot
of times where I didn't want to show up to
the gym. But my word for the year was disciplined,
and so it was more important to me to keep
my word to myself than it was actually get to
the gym.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
So I went great.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So you're saying, that's the part that you like, that's
the joy, that's.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
The joy, And the way you framed it is that
you wanted to be the person who goes to the gym.
So it was not just by the end of the year.
I want to look back and say, oh, I am
in a great shape. You wanted to do the work.
You were eager to be doing this. Now, how much
(19:29):
did you like the gym? How much fun was it
to be there or was it horrible?
Speaker 1 (19:34):
No, it was actually really fun.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
So this is the enjoyment part, because you could have
done the same thing but set some kind of exercise
or routine that wouldn't fit with you, that would make
you ache and I don't know, be too hot, too cold,
too board, and that this kind of a solution would
(19:56):
be something that people would report stopping around February or much.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I love the idea that the reason we complete goals
is because they're joyful or fun.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I would have never thought of that.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
Yeah, yes, this is because we usually set them thinking
that this is good in the long run. Not something
that will be immediately enjoyable. It's good in the long run.
As humans, we can really think ahead, right, We can
think like dozens of years ahead and plan for the
long run, but we still care a lot about the
(20:32):
immediate experience. And if something doesn't feel good, that's not
going to walk out.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So, just to recap Professor freshback, you're saying that of
the patients that you reviewed who said a new year's resolution,
the ones who kept them are the ones who are
able to maintain a level of excitement throughout the goal timeframe.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
Yes, and we call this intrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation is
the motivation that comes from doing It is something that
you get because you want to engage in the action itself.
And we contrast this with ex treinsic motivation, which is
what you get from completing the goal. The extent to
(21:16):
which people find these intrinsic motivators in their long term goals.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
They will be able to stick with them.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
So to give you an example, we went a study
in which we invited high school students to bring intrinsic
motivation to doing math. Okay, we actually help them. Okay,
we bought color pencils, we put music in the classroom.
We even got some snacks.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Okay. The teachers did not like us very much.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
Okay, but the students who are very engaged in doing math, okay,
we just made it into something that is more interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
That is fun.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
Maybe it's not on the level of the most fun
thing in the world.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
But it feels good. It feels good to do that.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
And this is where you can get people to engage.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
We've got to take a short break, but we'll be
right back with io lot fishback and we're back with
iolt fishback. Okay. So we've established that excitement, feeling, that
(22:27):
visceral sense of excitement is really essential for motivation. Is
there a way to manufacture excitement when it doesn't come organically?
Is there a shortcut to this?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (22:39):
Yeah, they fake it till you make it.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Not quite, But.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Many times you need to recognize that excitement will not
happen immediately.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
So I say that people are going to persist on
something that they don't change it. They motivate to do
that feels good, However, men, because will not feel good
when you start doing this. And so if I can
stay with that, gym exercise for a moment. If you
start a new routine, most likely your body is going
(23:12):
to respond with oh no, what are you doing to me?
And it will take the good five ten times before
it will feel good. This is not just a physiological thing.
We when studies with improved students, the classes were run
by the Second City, which is an improve club here
(23:34):
in the city of Chicago. When people start improved, and
I don't know if you ever try that, it feels
very awkward. Okay, when your guy tells you, you know,
take the stage and just act and everybody is looking
at you, I don't know about you.
Speaker 4 (23:51):
I want to just disappear. It doesn't feel good.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
And given that it will take time to feel good
and to become truly true motivating, you need to let
yourself feel uncomfortable before it starts feeling comfortable. And so
the intervention that we ran is we told people, you
know what you just started. Your goal right now is
to feel uncomfortable. Okay, it's kind of the opposite of
(24:17):
what I said before. I said, you will stick to
it if it feels good, if you're excited, But if
you're just starting heavy, your goal is feeling uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
Until you get there.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
I want to build on that journey of motivation. Maybe
the gym example is just a good one to go
off of because it's so tangible. We feel motivated at
the beginning. You see everybody at the gym in January,
maybe a little bit in February. And then there's the struggle.
You talk about it as the middle problem.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Yet it's hard to maintain goals over time.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
It's for many of us.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
We start with a lot of enthusiasm. If the goal
has a clear end date, then often enthusiasm increases.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Kay, I know.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
I sometimes give you example of making the last purchase.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
On a loyalty program.
Speaker 5 (25:11):
You will make it, Okay, you will get this reward
whatever that is. Gay finishing that, the last chapter of
a book, you will finish it. You want to know
what happens. It's in the middle when we see motivation declining.
And this is because it's hard to feel like you
make pogess okay that your first week.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Wow, I already did my first week.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
Okay last week, I'm just like one week from finishing
this program. In the middle, I went to the gym
and I didn't really feel like that move the needle
there is not much feeling of pogwess, and without pogus,
it is very hard to stay more with.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
So let's talk about restrictive goals like cutting back on
alcohol dry January. That's a very popular trend. What are
the best ways to overcome temptation when the goal is
actually limiting something that we're used to doing.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
Yeah, so these are very difficult goals. It's going to
be a hard first because it's not intrinsic. Okay, it
is never its own end okay, and end by itself gay,
it's something that you take off your plate. Okay, you
don't do, and it's less exciting. And second, monitoring success
(26:35):
on these goals requires that you bring the forbidding thought
or the forbidding object back to your mind. Basically, how
do you know that you are not drinking alcohol?
Speaker 4 (26:47):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (26:47):
You ask yourself? Have I been drinking alcohol? And now
you think about it?
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (26:53):
With a romantic relationship, that's a classic okay, like how
do you know that you are no longer thinking about
your ex?
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Ask yourself? Have I been thinking about my ex recently? Well?
Now you do okay. And so by that.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Process of monitoring these goals, you keep bringing to mind
what you are trying not to do. So we're talking
about avoidance goes there are very hard to pursue. They're
not very motivating. A few solutions try to replace it
with something okay, So it's not about not doing that thing,
(27:28):
it's about doing another thing okay. And if you can
do the replacement, you are going to be more excited.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
You're going to feel better about that goal.
Speaker 5 (27:40):
Another strategy is to think about these causes temporary because
they tend to feel urgent.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
That is, if I tell you that you.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
Should stop doing something, you usually believe that you should
stop doing it today. If I say that you should
stop drinking alcohol, you take it as how about right now?
So this is good. It seem elgent. And to the
extent that we can just think about thisy just like started.
(28:09):
They just like see where it takes you, okay. The
goal is not to do it for or not to
do it for the rest of your life. Is just
to be able not to do it for a little bit,
for some time and then get better control over whatever
it is.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
What do you think about replacing it with something else?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
Yes, that's the best avoidance goals with that food often
tend to fail for the reason that they bring to
mind the food that you're trying to avoid, and so
we often recommand replacement.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
It's not about not.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
Eating the cake. It's about eating the berries. It's not
about not drinking this, it's about drinking that.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
It's time for another short break.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
But we'll be right back with our conversation about motivation
with Islet Fishback, and we're back with Iolette Fishback. I
had a mentor who taught me something that actually has
worked for me. But I'm curious what you think and
(29:16):
if there's any research behind it. He says, he calls
it I do not So he says, I do not
eat sugar, I do not drink soda. I do not
hang up the phone on anybody. And he has a
list of things he does not do. I'm curious what
you think about it.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Is it exciting for this mentor?
Speaker 3 (29:41):
I guess maybe to say I do not eat sugar
makes him feel in control or disciplined.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
I'm not sure exactly exactly.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
So this is where I'm going, right So, like.
Speaker 5 (29:51):
If if you feel in contrall, if you feel good
about all that these do not.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
I'm sure the line between.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
A long list of do not and feeling a little
bit ocd about it. And you know, just going through
all these goals without passion nor excitement is blurry to me.
So I want people to post your clothes that make
them feel good. One thing that we did discover in
(30:25):
our studies is that people have those strategies and they
often walk. So if someone tells me that something walks
for them, go for it.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
That is so amazing.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Here's my question for you.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
There are different things that work for different people. How
can you determine?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
What is your advice for helping us all find that spark?
What should we be paying attention to in our lives
to find out what really motivates us?
Speaker 5 (30:51):
I say there are four areas that you should explore.
Have you set the right goal?
Speaker 1 (30:58):
They?
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Are you monitoring progress correctly? Can you tell me where
you are on that particular goal? What about other goals?
How this thing fits with everything else? And number four,
do you have social support? Other people around you that
are with you, that are helping you, that are willing
(31:19):
to support you when you're unhappy with your progress? Ask that, say,
you look around you, what are the other people at
the gym do?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Here?
Speaker 5 (31:29):
What my family thinks about me going to the gym
and what everybody else is doing. In particular, for these
individual goals where it seems like we can do it
by ourselves, we realize that we don't do anything by ourselves.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
If others are.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
Not around us, they are in our head, and it's
important that they.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Are supportive that they care.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
I don't think that they actually monitor what you did,
but you need to believe that it's important for them
that you do well. If your mom doesn't believe that
you can do it, it makes it much harder.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
This conversation has been so eye opening. I've always loved
the topic of motivation, and if our besties want more,
they can read it in your book, which is called
Get It Done. Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation.
We would be remiss if we didn't ask you, what's
motivating you this year in twenty twenty five. Is there
a word, or an intention or a prayer that you've
(32:32):
set to kickstart your own personal motivation?
Speaker 4 (32:35):
So is many many things that I would like.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
To do in twenty twenty five, but this morning I
was thinking, the one thing that I really want to
figure out is how to think about strategies to create
greater How many between goals? How do we get people
to understand that the various goals that you have in
your life complete you and compliment each other. They don't
(33:03):
create a conflict necessarily, they create har money. Hopefully in
a year I will be able to say something more
than a sentence about.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
That, Professor Fishback, thank you so much for joining us
on the bright Side.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
Thank you for having me, and no good luck to
you and everyone else with their goals in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Hmmm, that's such a nice wish. Thank you, Professor Fishback.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
I Let Fishback is a professor of behavioral science at
the University of Chicago and the author.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Of the book Get It Done.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
That's it for today's show. On Monday, we're tapping into
the incredible power of mentorship with Dolores Morton, the CEO
of the mentorship nonprofit Step Up.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The bright
Side is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts,
and it is exactecutive produced by Reese Witherspoon.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Production by Arcana Audio. Our producers are Jessica Wank, Krista Ripple,
and Amy Padula. Our senior producers It's I Kintania and
our engineer is PJ. Shahamat.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Arcana's executive producers are Francis Harlowe and Abby Ruzka.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Arcana's head of production is Matt Schultz.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Natalie Tulluck and Maureen Polo are the executive producers for
Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Julia Weaver is the supervising producer, and Ali Perry is
the executive producer.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
For iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Tim Palazzola is our showrunner. This week's episodes were recorded
by Graham Gibson and Joel Morales.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Our theme song is by Anna Stump and Hamilton lighthauser.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Special thanks to Connell Byrne and Will Pearson.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I'm Simone Boyce. You can find me at Simone Boyce
on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
And I'm Danielle Robey on Instagram and TikTok. That's ro
Ba y We'll.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
See you Monday. Y'all. Keep looking on the bright side.
Host
Simone Boyce
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