February 13, 2025 • 24 mins
Today on the show we chat with writer Ilana Kaplan, author of the book “Nora Ephron at the Movies.” In her book, Kaplan unpacks Nora’s unique universe and what made the films “When Harry Met Sally,” “Sleepless In Seattle,” “You’ve Got Mail,” and many more, so special and beloved. We break down Nora Ephron’s legacy, her signature wit, and why her spin on the romantic comedy genre is here to stay.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey mesties, Hello Sunshine. Today on the bright side, I'll
have what she's having. As our week of Love and
Relationships continue, we're celebrating the Queen of rom comms, Nora Efron.
Joining us is writer Alana Kaplin. She has a brand
new book, Nora Efron at the Movies, So we're going
to dig into Nora's cultural significance, her inspirations, and the
lasting impact that she's had on fans around the world.
(00:26):
It's Thursday, February thirteenth.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm Danielle Robe, I'm Simone Boyce, and this is the
bright side from Hello Sunshine, Danielle. Okay, when it comes
to Nora Efron, We've got When Harry met Sally, You've
got Male Sleepless in Seattle, Julia and Julia. I mean,
the list goes on. Okay, what comes to mind for
you when you think of Nora Efron, either books or movies.
(00:51):
Do you have a core memory?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
For sure?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
The first thing that comes to my mind is Harry
met Sally. It's just truly an iconic film. And I
say that because it has some of the best dialogue
in realm com history, and it was a film that
at the time explored the nuance of relationships like friendship
and timing and emotional honesty in a way that I
(01:13):
think if you watch that movie today, it resonates decades later,
And you can't say that about a lot of realm comms,
Like there's an expiration date on rom coms, because they
kind of capture love as it was seen and experienced
in a moment in time.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, well, that's so well said. I also think what
sets her films apart is the lore that has been
created around it. Like when I think of when Harry
mt Sally think of Katz's Deli and like going to
New York and actually physically getting to go see it.
I think of the Serendipity Cafe in New York City,
which is where they filmed a lot of You've Got Mail.
(01:48):
So it's fun that you can actually kind of still
live in and recreate these moments that we've all adored
on screen for years. That's such a good point.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
It's kind of like how you want to go see
the Cafe of the Friends cast, like it just meant
so much to the film or the TV show, and
you can't say that about a ton of movies. Totally
Nora's work has such an eternal quality, and I think
one of the reasons is that her films don't just
talk about finding love, or her work doesn't talk about
just finding love, but it's about figuring out who you
are on the way there too. So I want to
(02:17):
get into it all with our guest today joining us
as writer and journalist Alana Kaplan and for her new
book Nora Efron at the Movies, Alana dug into Nora's
cultural significance, her style, the way that Nora redefined love
and relationships for women.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Let's bring her in.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Okay, Alana Kathlin, Welcome to the bright Side.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
We are big Nora Efrin fans over here. Why are
you a Nora Efrin fan? Why did you want to
be entrenched in her universe?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
I think that you know.
Speaker 5 (02:50):
I grew up delusionally thinking that my life was going
to a rom com.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I wanted it to be a rom com.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
Rom Coms were such an inherent part of like who
I was. And You've Got Mail was the first Noraphron
movie ever saw. I used to watch TBS and TNT marathons.
They would do romcom marathons, and I absolutely fell in
love with the chemistry and the storytelling, and it felt
like a great fit for me, especially with my background.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
There's this great line in your book you write.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Whenever I watch any Nora Efren movie, I can't help
but think about how nobody did it like her and
no one can follow her. First of all, why can
no one follow her? And how did she do it
so differently? What was so revolutionary about her work?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Her work was.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
So singular because of her voice and her perspective, and
you know, not everyone can master funny, sharp writing and
fully fleshed out characters. There's an acidity to the way
that she writes. I was going to say, just like
in her essays, she really was able to write like
your funny best friend. You probably did it, know, Nora,
(04:01):
but it felt like you did every time you read it.
You know, I feel bad about my neck or any
of her other essays, especially about aging. I felt like
that felt really relatable to a lot of people. Before
Nora's work, a lot of female heroines were much more polished,
and when Noura wrote women, she wrote them with the
(04:22):
female gaze in mind, and I feel like she was
able to see women as messy, complex, high maintenance, at
times funny and you know, not virginal. And it really
changed the trajectory of how women are portrayed on screen.
(04:45):
And also, you know how we talk about sexuality in
rom coms.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
It sounds like from what you're saying too, that up
until Nora's work, rom coms were a little bit more
trite or they fit into this very particular mold, and
she just had a very different of writing.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think that to this day, when
you hear people talk about Nora Efron, they often will
immediately speak about the writing. And when Harry met Sally,
just how clever it was. Just the familiarity between the characters,
and so many other directors and screenwriters wanted to be
(05:21):
like Nora Efron, like John Turtletab who made While You
Were Sleeping, wanted to make his Nora Fron movie. And
you see allusions to Richard Curtis's work and taking cues
from her, And I think it's interesting to see how
much she's impacted the genre.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
So Alano, when the opportunity to write this book presented itself,
it's called Nora Efron at the Movies. Where did you
start with your research. Who did you talk to?
Speaker 5 (05:46):
The first thing I did was watch all of her movies.
I hadn't seen all of her movies. I've seen a
lot of the ones you've probably heard of. And then
I saw someone you might not have. But I didn't
know she had a hand in certain projects. I didn't
know that Mixed Nuts existed and she was a part
of it. I didn't know about Silkwood at that time.
(06:06):
I didn't realize that she wrote that with Alice Arlin.
I wanted to get a sense of how her career
trajectory changed, how her voice changed, how she transitioned from genres,
and you know, like when she kind of wanted to
not be boxed in as a rom com queen versus
(06:28):
trying to venture into other genres. I bought every book
that Nora had ever written. I read every essay she's
ever written, every article she's written. I think it was
interesting to kind of separate the topic she covered, you know,
(06:48):
aging or fashion or food, and how much heart went
into those pieces and how much of her we got
to know through those pieces. Additionally, she was also a playwright,
so I read those plays, and you know, I think
the most fascinating part about it is just learning why
(07:10):
she was so interested in making certain plays and they
stood the test of time, or like how her fixations
became plays. Her topic choices were always really interesting, and
I wanted to explore that.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
The other part of the research came.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
I emailed and reached out to as many people as
you can possibly think of, main characters, sporting characters, collaborators, friends,
everybody in Castcrow. Did you talk to Meg Ryan? Not
for a lack of trying, I didn't. It's funny is
I was actually assigned a profile in Meg Ryan while
(07:45):
I was writing the book, and she didn't end up
wanting to do it.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
It was for like the Washington.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Post, Alana, I'm so interested in your personal journey as
you were writing this bookook because at the beginning of
our conversation you mentioned that you kind of had this
idea in your mind of how your life would go
based on Nora Efron stories and movies. So what was
happening in your life at the time that you were
(08:15):
writing this book, and how did you reconcile the life
you thought you were going to have with the life
that you're living now, and how did you filter that
through the lens of Nora Ephron's work.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
That's a great question.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
So I got engaged in twenty twenty, like about a
month and a half into the pandemic, and my husband
and I were planning our wedding through a big chunk
of me writing this book. I actually think my draft
was my first full draft, was due before my wedding,
if not like a couple months later. I don't remember
(08:50):
the timeline, but I remember I was like rushing to
finish that and also planning my wedding, and it was
just constant.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
It was chaotic.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
I always fantasized about my wedding and I wanted it
to be this like magical day. And I was like, okay,
like when is the magic gonna happen? Because I feel
like I'm losing my mind. And what's funny is the
week of our wedding we were like so stressed out.
(09:19):
We even like argued like a day before because the
place cards went missing and we went on like a
four hour hunt throughout the hotel for them. And then
as I was walking down the aisle, I felt like
I was like watching myself from Afar. I felt like
I was in a movie. As I was walking on
aisle like I started out as a music writer, so
I was very specific about like the music choices and
(09:42):
just everything about it. It was perfect and romantic. It
was not how I thought it would go, but it
was everything I ever imagined.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
You got your rom calm wedding.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
I did get my rom calm wedding.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
And it doesn't mean it wasn't hard before and it
hasn't been hard after. But this is all to say
that I don't think Nora Efron's movies are not full
of their challenges. It's not as straightforward as the rom
comms that came before her. There are always obstacles, so
there can be a happy ending, but there can also
(10:14):
be obstacles before and after. And I think that my
experience getting married and planning the wedding echoed that sentiment.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
I want to dig deeper on that because that is
a pillar of the Nora Efrin rom com She had
this female character, often played by Meg Ryan, that was
a heroine, meaning she had a hero's journey, there were obstacles.
Were there any other characteristics that stand out to you
as a quintessential Nora Efrin character a female lead?
Speaker 5 (10:48):
To be precise, I always feel like their career driven
and they're not just vying for the male attention. I
think that they don't want to settle really well rounded,
and that's what made them feel like they were still aspirational,
like you still wanted to kind of have this maybe
(11:11):
you wanted like this friendship turn romance like when Harry
met Sally. It also felt attainable too, So it was aspirational,
but it was attainable watching these characters develop.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
We've got to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back with Alana Caplin. And we're back with journalist
and author Alana Kaplin. You were talking about your wedding
and the obstacles that inevitably come up with such a
big event, as thinking about rom coms and how we
(11:48):
we know how it's going to end for most of them,
ninety nine percent of them, but we don't know what's
going to happen along the way necessarily. And Nora had
this superpower when it comes to depict the act of
falling in love. What do you if you had to
pinpoint it, what do you think her signature is in
that respect?
Speaker 5 (12:07):
I think because there's so much tension along the way,
there's she you know, there's the battle of the sexes
element that she plays in. She was a huge like
pride and prejudiced and Jane Austen fan. So it's fun
to see those little elements shine through, like particularly and
like You've Got Mail, And after all of the bickering
(12:28):
and the opinionated female characters have their moment, they get
a happy ending on their terms.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I think, out of all of the movie the Nora movies,
I loved, When Harry Met Sally is the penultimate. To me,
Like I think about realm comms today and I think
so many of them came from that film.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
I totally agree with you. I mean, I feel like
that movie is the blueprint for so many other rom coms.
If you look at like Leslie Hedlin Sleeping with other
people like that movie looks, it looks like its own
version of When Harry Met Sally. Visually, I think a
couple of years ago, JABOOKI Young White Start in Love
(13:12):
a New York and that was like a more like
a digital like love in the digital era story that
was definitely very influenced by When Harry Met Sally. There
are tons of directors and writers who have referenced that movie.
You know, into all the boys I've loved before. For instance,
(13:33):
like the epistolary storytelling element like that to me is
very Nora. I mean more Sleepless in Seattle, but like
it's I think, if I'm remembering this correctly, Jenny Hahn
actually moved. There's an article where Jenny han said she
moved to New York to work in a bookstore and
like hope to fall in love because of Nora Afron.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
She was really such a force.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
She was a journalist, she was a screenwriter, a novelist,
a pretty or a director, and she really achieved so
much at a time when it was much harder for
women to hold any of those titles, let alone rite
for the screen. What do you think made her so
successful across so many industries.
Speaker 5 (14:13):
I mean, I think that it helped that she grew
up with having screenwriter parents and kind of being immersed
in the industry to some degree from a young age.
You know, her voice was just really versatile. Like as
someone who's a journalist or writer myself, I struggle with
writing about myself. I think that it's really a skill
(14:37):
for people to be able to do that, do it
well and be able to like storytell at the same time,
and she had a knack for doing that in all forms.
I think that her journalism career is what helped her
really like find the confidence to work in film, and
(14:57):
you know, like her screen writing gave her the launching
pad to be able to eventually direct. So I think
it's interesting that she really kept challenging herself.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
If we think of her as a character in her
own story, as a female heroine who faced obstacles, what
sticks out to you.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
I think the rejection is not as straightforward in terms
of career. I think she faced a lot of rejection
when it came to having critical misfires. Like while her
rom coms were really successful, she struggled when it came
to making some of the more the black comedies or
the slapstick films. It's hard when you've been so successful
(15:43):
at something to not be pigeonholed.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Did she try to make those types of films?
Speaker 5 (15:48):
Yeah, so, I mean brutally honest, Like Lucky Numbers is
one of the worst movies I've ever seen, Like it's
very forgettable. I remember when it came out because it
was I think it was like two thousand when it
came out.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
And I I thought it was going to be really good.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
I remember I hadn't watched in years, and I watched
it for the writing of this book, and it's like,
maybe it's not as bad as I remember. And because
it has like John Travolta, Lisa Koter, Michael Moore's in it,
there's a lot of people in this movie and it
is just very unwatchable. And there's been article since, like
from the screenwriter that I just think she wasn't like
(16:24):
the right fit for this kind of movie, and like
that said, like I have to admire that she wanted
to try these things or had the opportunity to, because
I don't think everyone gets the opportunity to try these things.
It gets the budget to try these things in Hollywood,
especially women or women of color.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And men are given permission to fail, but women aren't
at the box office exactly.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
And then from a personal standpoint, I feel like Heartburn,
her autobiographical novel, is all about Rejection, which is an
incredible movie too, starring Meryl Streep and Jack Nicholson, but
it's about the dissolution of her marriage and how her
husband not named Carl Bernstein in the book, but Carl
(17:08):
Bernstein cheated on her, but it's a breakup rom com
film to me. To me, it's an honorary member of
the rom com trio because at the end she gets
a happy ending, but she's starting over on her own
and as a single mom, and I think the ending
is really beautiful. So I feel like, you know, she
(17:28):
handled rejection in a way that I feel like a
lot of people admire, Like, if this man cheated on
you, you wrote an entire novel and then autobiographical novel, and
then you also wrote a movie that he would need
to see everywhere by a movie that starred two of
Hollywood's biggest actors.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Did Nora think of her work as feminist.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
I think she did.
Speaker 5 (17:56):
I do think that the thing about Nora's work is,
while there are feminist elements to it, especially you know,
in the way that she talked about sexuality, the orgasm
scene and when Harry met Sally, the independence that a
lot of her female heroines had, there are a lot
of blind spots when you're looking at her work. There
are a few people of color in her films. I
(18:16):
think she was an expert at white feminism. I don't
think that it was intersectional and I think that her
work is very necessary for the genre, but there are
other people who I think she was progressive at the time,
but I think a lot of people. There are several
screenwriters and directors now who are pushing the narrative forward
(18:39):
and making it more inclusive.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I'm curious where you feel Norah's voice in your life now?
What is her relevance in your life now?
Speaker 5 (18:51):
Uh, this kind of sounds like silly, but I've been
really distraught because I have like necklines right.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Now, I'm touching my own neck.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
No, Like I don't know if it's from technak or
just because I'm like getting older and thirty five, So
I keep thinking about her.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
I feel bad about my neck.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
I feel like the aging essays tend to hit a
little bit harder as you get older. That's kind of
where I've been thinking about her lately.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
I mean, I always.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Find comfort in her rom coms, always in the fall
and winter. That's like when I come back to her.
So that's kind of where I'm I am with her.
I definitely I've been immersed in Nora world for a
while now, so I feel like I've been, you know,
like easing back into it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I think that's a great answer.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
It's time for another short break, but don't go anywhere.
We'll be right back to our conversation with journalist and
author Alana Kaplin.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
And we're back with Alana Kaplin.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Okay, we have a quick game to send us out. Lana,
all right, we are gonna play Shag Mary Kill Love
It but applied to the Nora Ephron cinematic universe. Okay,
so here are your choices. When Harry met Sally, You've
Got Mail and Sleepless in Seattle, which movie are you
marrying You've Got Mail? That's the one you want to
(20:22):
spend eternity with?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
I do.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
It's my favorite. It's my favorite Nora movie.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Okay, why tell us why?
Speaker 5 (20:28):
I mean really, despite the fact that Joe Fox is
putting Kathleen Kelly out of business, Tom Hanks and his
chemistry and that with Megrine is like unparalleled. The end
when he delivers this apology and essentially in a proposal
and he asks her like why she won't forgive him,
(20:51):
and he's like, oh, how I wish she would. I
get chills every time that line comes on. I have
watched that movie for twenty plus years of my life
and it still happens.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
I like, I just.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Melt, Okay, which movie is a perfect one night stand?
You're like, Okay, I've seen it once. I don't know
that I need to see it again and again.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
Okay, So when Harry Matt Sally one night Stand, I
mean also because it's just like obviously, like right, feels
fitting for when Harry Matt Sally, I think I just
generally don't like Harry.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
And he's quite chauvinistic.
Speaker 5 (21:30):
But again, I love that movie, like the characters, Marie's incredible, Like,
there's so much about that movie I love. I just
am You've got male girl at heart.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
So Sleepless in Seattle is that's the one getting the acts?
Speaker 4 (21:44):
It is?
Speaker 5 (21:45):
There are aspects of Sleepless and Seattle that I enjoy,
and the concept I like.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
I don't like how Meg and Tom aren't.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
Really ever in the film together aside from the or
like they're only in the film together for like two
and one is the end. I also feel like it's
a bit stockersh the whole concept. It's not my favorite
of the rom com trio. That said, I do enjoy
it when it's on and there's like a lot of
beautiful elements to it.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's funny when you rewatch the movies from our childhood
and you're like, that doesn't that doesn't quite track for me,
that doesn't quite add up.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I kind of like that Rita Wilson and Tom Hanks
are in the film together. It's not the film that
they met on, but it's fun to see real life
relationships on screen and especially in hindsight.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Yeah, and I will say, like, I think one of
the best, one of the best, if not the best
moment of the film is Rita Wilson doing her like
teary monologue retelling of an affair show Remember, is just
amazing cinema.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
It's also interesting to me how Norah utilizes technology of
the time as part of her storytelling, often like this
was radio, obviously email. Like, I do think she was
very of the moment in her storytelling.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Yeah, I feel like she sometimes was ahead of her
time or a little bit more on the pulse than
other people who were like maybe denying that like email
was going to take over. I wonder how she'd feel,
I mean, I wonder how she'd feel about other aspects
of technology now.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
But alas I.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Know if she was alive, we might get a movie
about texting her, dating apps, dating apps, texting AI.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well, Alana, thank you so much for coming on the
bright Side, and congratulations on your book Naura Efron at
the Movies.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Thank you so much for having me, and thank you
for doing this today.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Thanks Alana.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Alana Kaplan is a journalist and author of the book
Nora Efron at the Movies.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're back to popping
off with our bright Side be see and very own
showrunner Tim Paalazola. Join the conversation using hashtag the bright
Side and connect with us on social media at Hello
Sunshine on Instagram and at the bright Side Pod on
TikTok oh, and feel free to tag us at Simone
Boyce and at Danielle Robe.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.
Hey mesties, Hello Sunshine. Today on the bright side, I'll
have what she's having. As our week of Love and
Relationships continue, we're celebrating the Queen of rom comms, Nora Efron.
Joining us is writer Alana Kaplin. She has a brand
new book, Nora Efron at the Movies, So we're going
to dig into Nora's cultural significance, her inspirations, and the
lasting impact that she's had on fans around the world.
(00:26):
It's Thursday, February thirteenth.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm Danielle Robe, I'm Simone Boyce, and this is the
bright side from Hello Sunshine, Danielle. Okay, when it comes
to Nora Efron, We've got When Harry met Sally, You've
got Male Sleepless in Seattle, Julia and Julia. I mean,
the list goes on. Okay, what comes to mind for
you when you think of Nora Efron, either books or movies.
(00:51):
Do you have a core memory?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
For sure?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
The first thing that comes to my mind is Harry
met Sally. It's just truly an iconic film. And I
say that because it has some of the best dialogue
in realm com history, and it was a film that
at the time explored the nuance of relationships like friendship
and timing and emotional honesty in a way that I
(01:13):
think if you watch that movie today, it resonates decades later,
And you can't say that about a lot of realm comms,
Like there's an expiration date on rom coms, because they
kind of capture love as it was seen and experienced
in a moment in time.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, well, that's so well said. I also think what
sets her films apart is the lore that has been
created around it. Like when I think of when Harry
mt Sally think of Katz's Deli and like going to
New York and actually physically getting to go see it.
I think of the Serendipity Cafe in New York City,
which is where they filmed a lot of You've Got Mail.
(01:48):
So it's fun that you can actually kind of still
live in and recreate these moments that we've all adored
on screen for years. That's such a good point.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
It's kind of like how you want to go see
the Cafe of the Friends cast, like it just meant
so much to the film or the TV show, and
you can't say that about a ton of movies. Totally
Nora's work has such an eternal quality, and I think
one of the reasons is that her films don't just
talk about finding love, or her work doesn't talk about
just finding love, but it's about figuring out who you
are on the way there too. So I want to
(02:17):
get into it all with our guest today joining us
as writer and journalist Alana Kaplan and for her new
book Nora Efron at the Movies, Alana dug into Nora's
cultural significance, her style, the way that Nora redefined love
and relationships for women.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Let's bring her in.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Okay, Alana Kathlin, Welcome to the bright Side.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
We are big Nora Efrin fans over here. Why are
you a Nora Efrin fan? Why did you want to
be entrenched in her universe?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
I think that you know.
Speaker 5 (02:50):
I grew up delusionally thinking that my life was going
to a rom com.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I wanted it to be a rom com.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
Rom Coms were such an inherent part of like who
I was. And You've Got Mail was the first Noraphron
movie ever saw. I used to watch TBS and TNT marathons.
They would do romcom marathons, and I absolutely fell in
love with the chemistry and the storytelling, and it felt
like a great fit for me, especially with my background.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
There's this great line in your book you write.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Whenever I watch any Nora Efren movie, I can't help
but think about how nobody did it like her and
no one can follow her. First of all, why can
no one follow her? And how did she do it
so differently? What was so revolutionary about her work?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Her work was.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
So singular because of her voice and her perspective, and
you know, not everyone can master funny, sharp writing and
fully fleshed out characters. There's an acidity to the way
that she writes. I was going to say, just like
in her essays, she really was able to write like
your funny best friend. You probably did it, know, Nora,
(04:01):
but it felt like you did every time you read it.
You know, I feel bad about my neck or any
of her other essays, especially about aging. I felt like
that felt really relatable to a lot of people. Before
Nora's work, a lot of female heroines were much more polished,
and when Noura wrote women, she wrote them with the
(04:22):
female gaze in mind, and I feel like she was
able to see women as messy, complex, high maintenance, at
times funny and you know, not virginal. And it really
changed the trajectory of how women are portrayed on screen.
(04:45):
And also, you know how we talk about sexuality in
rom coms.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
It sounds like from what you're saying too, that up
until Nora's work, rom coms were a little bit more
trite or they fit into this very particular mold, and
she just had a very different of writing.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think that to this day, when
you hear people talk about Nora Efron, they often will
immediately speak about the writing. And when Harry met Sally,
just how clever it was. Just the familiarity between the characters,
and so many other directors and screenwriters wanted to be
(05:21):
like Nora Efron, like John Turtletab who made While You
Were Sleeping, wanted to make his Nora Fron movie. And
you see allusions to Richard Curtis's work and taking cues
from her, And I think it's interesting to see how
much she's impacted the genre.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
So Alano, when the opportunity to write this book presented itself,
it's called Nora Efron at the Movies. Where did you
start with your research. Who did you talk to?
Speaker 5 (05:46):
The first thing I did was watch all of her movies.
I hadn't seen all of her movies. I've seen a
lot of the ones you've probably heard of. And then
I saw someone you might not have. But I didn't
know she had a hand in certain projects. I didn't
know that Mixed Nuts existed and she was a part
of it. I didn't know about Silkwood at that time.
(06:06):
I didn't realize that she wrote that with Alice Arlin.
I wanted to get a sense of how her career
trajectory changed, how her voice changed, how she transitioned from genres,
and you know, like when she kind of wanted to
not be boxed in as a rom com queen versus
(06:28):
trying to venture into other genres. I bought every book
that Nora had ever written. I read every essay she's
ever written, every article she's written. I think it was
interesting to kind of separate the topic she covered, you know,
(06:48):
aging or fashion or food, and how much heart went
into those pieces and how much of her we got
to know through those pieces. Additionally, she was also a playwright,
so I read those plays, and you know, I think
the most fascinating part about it is just learning why
(07:10):
she was so interested in making certain plays and they
stood the test of time, or like how her fixations
became plays. Her topic choices were always really interesting, and
I wanted to explore that.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
The other part of the research came.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
I emailed and reached out to as many people as
you can possibly think of, main characters, sporting characters, collaborators, friends,
everybody in Castcrow. Did you talk to Meg Ryan? Not
for a lack of trying, I didn't. It's funny is
I was actually assigned a profile in Meg Ryan while
(07:45):
I was writing the book, and she didn't end up
wanting to do it.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
It was for like the Washington.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Post, Alana, I'm so interested in your personal journey as
you were writing this bookook because at the beginning of
our conversation you mentioned that you kind of had this
idea in your mind of how your life would go
based on Nora Efron stories and movies. So what was
happening in your life at the time that you were
(08:15):
writing this book, and how did you reconcile the life
you thought you were going to have with the life
that you're living now, and how did you filter that
through the lens of Nora Ephron's work.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
That's a great question.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
So I got engaged in twenty twenty, like about a
month and a half into the pandemic, and my husband
and I were planning our wedding through a big chunk
of me writing this book. I actually think my draft
was my first full draft, was due before my wedding,
if not like a couple months later. I don't remember
(08:50):
the timeline, but I remember I was like rushing to
finish that and also planning my wedding, and it was
just constant.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
It was chaotic.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
I always fantasized about my wedding and I wanted it
to be this like magical day. And I was like, okay,
like when is the magic gonna happen? Because I feel
like I'm losing my mind. And what's funny is the
week of our wedding we were like so stressed out.
(09:19):
We even like argued like a day before because the
place cards went missing and we went on like a
four hour hunt throughout the hotel for them. And then
as I was walking down the aisle, I felt like
I was like watching myself from Afar. I felt like
I was in a movie. As I was walking on
aisle like I started out as a music writer, so
I was very specific about like the music choices and
(09:42):
just everything about it. It was perfect and romantic. It
was not how I thought it would go, but it
was everything I ever imagined.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
You got your rom calm wedding.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
I did get my rom calm wedding.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
And it doesn't mean it wasn't hard before and it
hasn't been hard after. But this is all to say
that I don't think Nora Efron's movies are not full
of their challenges. It's not as straightforward as the rom
comms that came before her. There are always obstacles, so
there can be a happy ending, but there can also
(10:14):
be obstacles before and after. And I think that my
experience getting married and planning the wedding echoed that sentiment.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
I want to dig deeper on that because that is
a pillar of the Nora Efrin rom com She had
this female character, often played by Meg Ryan, that was
a heroine, meaning she had a hero's journey, there were obstacles.
Were there any other characteristics that stand out to you
as a quintessential Nora Efrin character a female lead?
Speaker 5 (10:48):
To be precise, I always feel like their career driven
and they're not just vying for the male attention. I
think that they don't want to settle really well rounded,
and that's what made them feel like they were still aspirational,
like you still wanted to kind of have this maybe
(11:11):
you wanted like this friendship turn romance like when Harry
met Sally. It also felt attainable too, So it was aspirational,
but it was attainable watching these characters develop.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
We've got to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back with Alana Caplin. And we're back with journalist
and author Alana Kaplin. You were talking about your wedding
and the obstacles that inevitably come up with such a
big event, as thinking about rom coms and how we
(11:48):
we know how it's going to end for most of them,
ninety nine percent of them, but we don't know what's
going to happen along the way necessarily. And Nora had
this superpower when it comes to depict the act of
falling in love. What do you if you had to
pinpoint it, what do you think her signature is in
that respect?
Speaker 5 (12:07):
I think because there's so much tension along the way,
there's she you know, there's the battle of the sexes
element that she plays in. She was a huge like
pride and prejudiced and Jane Austen fan. So it's fun
to see those little elements shine through, like particularly and
like You've Got Mail, And after all of the bickering
(12:28):
and the opinionated female characters have their moment, they get
a happy ending on their terms.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I think, out of all of the movie the Nora movies,
I loved, When Harry Met Sally is the penultimate. To me,
Like I think about realm comms today and I think
so many of them came from that film.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
I totally agree with you. I mean, I feel like
that movie is the blueprint for so many other rom coms.
If you look at like Leslie Hedlin Sleeping with other
people like that movie looks, it looks like its own
version of When Harry Met Sally. Visually, I think a
couple of years ago, JABOOKI Young White Start in Love
(13:12):
a New York and that was like a more like
a digital like love in the digital era story that
was definitely very influenced by When Harry Met Sally. There
are tons of directors and writers who have referenced that movie.
You know, into all the boys I've loved before. For instance,
(13:33):
like the epistolary storytelling element like that to me is
very Nora. I mean more Sleepless in Seattle, but like
it's I think, if I'm remembering this correctly, Jenny Hahn
actually moved. There's an article where Jenny han said she
moved to New York to work in a bookstore and
like hope to fall in love because of Nora Afron.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
She was really such a force.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
She was a journalist, she was a screenwriter, a novelist,
a pretty or a director, and she really achieved so
much at a time when it was much harder for
women to hold any of those titles, let alone rite
for the screen. What do you think made her so
successful across so many industries.
Speaker 5 (14:13):
I mean, I think that it helped that she grew
up with having screenwriter parents and kind of being immersed
in the industry to some degree from a young age.
You know, her voice was just really versatile. Like as
someone who's a journalist or writer myself, I struggle with
writing about myself. I think that it's really a skill
(14:37):
for people to be able to do that, do it
well and be able to like storytell at the same time,
and she had a knack for doing that in all forms.
I think that her journalism career is what helped her
really like find the confidence to work in film, and
(14:57):
you know, like her screen writing gave her the launching
pad to be able to eventually direct. So I think
it's interesting that she really kept challenging herself.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
If we think of her as a character in her
own story, as a female heroine who faced obstacles, what
sticks out to you.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
I think the rejection is not as straightforward in terms
of career. I think she faced a lot of rejection
when it came to having critical misfires. Like while her
rom coms were really successful, she struggled when it came
to making some of the more the black comedies or
the slapstick films. It's hard when you've been so successful
(15:43):
at something to not be pigeonholed.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Did she try to make those types of films?
Speaker 5 (15:48):
Yeah, so, I mean brutally honest, Like Lucky Numbers is
one of the worst movies I've ever seen, Like it's
very forgettable. I remember when it came out because it
was I think it was like two thousand when it
came out.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
And I I thought it was going to be really good.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
I remember I hadn't watched in years, and I watched
it for the writing of this book, and it's like,
maybe it's not as bad as I remember. And because
it has like John Travolta, Lisa Koter, Michael Moore's in it,
there's a lot of people in this movie and it
is just very unwatchable. And there's been article since, like
from the screenwriter that I just think she wasn't like
(16:24):
the right fit for this kind of movie, and like
that said, like I have to admire that she wanted
to try these things or had the opportunity to, because
I don't think everyone gets the opportunity to try these things.
It gets the budget to try these things in Hollywood,
especially women or women of color.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And men are given permission to fail, but women aren't
at the box office exactly.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
And then from a personal standpoint, I feel like Heartburn,
her autobiographical novel, is all about Rejection, which is an
incredible movie too, starring Meryl Streep and Jack Nicholson, but
it's about the dissolution of her marriage and how her
husband not named Carl Bernstein in the book, but Carl
(17:08):
Bernstein cheated on her, but it's a breakup rom com
film to me. To me, it's an honorary member of
the rom com trio because at the end she gets
a happy ending, but she's starting over on her own
and as a single mom, and I think the ending
is really beautiful. So I feel like, you know, she
(17:28):
handled rejection in a way that I feel like a
lot of people admire, Like, if this man cheated on
you, you wrote an entire novel and then autobiographical novel, and
then you also wrote a movie that he would need
to see everywhere by a movie that starred two of
Hollywood's biggest actors.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Did Nora think of her work as feminist.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
I think she did.
Speaker 5 (17:56):
I do think that the thing about Nora's work is,
while there are feminist elements to it, especially you know,
in the way that she talked about sexuality, the orgasm
scene and when Harry met Sally, the independence that a
lot of her female heroines had, there are a lot
of blind spots when you're looking at her work. There
are a few people of color in her films. I
(18:16):
think she was an expert at white feminism. I don't
think that it was intersectional and I think that her
work is very necessary for the genre, but there are
other people who I think she was progressive at the time,
but I think a lot of people. There are several
screenwriters and directors now who are pushing the narrative forward
(18:39):
and making it more inclusive.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I'm curious where you feel Norah's voice in your life now?
What is her relevance in your life now?
Speaker 5 (18:51):
Uh, this kind of sounds like silly, but I've been
really distraught because I have like necklines right.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Now, I'm touching my own neck.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
No, Like I don't know if it's from technak or
just because I'm like getting older and thirty five, So
I keep thinking about her.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
I feel bad about my neck.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
I feel like the aging essays tend to hit a
little bit harder as you get older. That's kind of
where I've been thinking about her lately.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
I mean, I always.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Find comfort in her rom coms, always in the fall
and winter. That's like when I come back to her.
So that's kind of where I'm I am with her.
I definitely I've been immersed in Nora world for a
while now, so I feel like I've been, you know,
like easing back into it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I think that's a great answer.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
It's time for another short break, but don't go anywhere.
We'll be right back to our conversation with journalist and
author Alana Kaplin.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
And we're back with Alana Kaplin.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Okay, we have a quick game to send us out. Lana,
all right, we are gonna play Shag Mary Kill Love
It but applied to the Nora Ephron cinematic universe. Okay,
so here are your choices. When Harry met Sally, You've
Got Mail and Sleepless in Seattle, which movie are you
marrying You've Got Mail? That's the one you want to
(20:22):
spend eternity with?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
I do.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
It's my favorite. It's my favorite Nora movie.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Okay, why tell us why?
Speaker 5 (20:28):
I mean really, despite the fact that Joe Fox is
putting Kathleen Kelly out of business, Tom Hanks and his
chemistry and that with Megrine is like unparalleled. The end
when he delivers this apology and essentially in a proposal
and he asks her like why she won't forgive him,
(20:51):
and he's like, oh, how I wish she would. I
get chills every time that line comes on. I have
watched that movie for twenty plus years of my life
and it still happens.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
I like, I just.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Melt, Okay, which movie is a perfect one night stand?
You're like, Okay, I've seen it once. I don't know
that I need to see it again and again.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
Okay, So when Harry Matt Sally one night Stand, I
mean also because it's just like obviously, like right, feels
fitting for when Harry Matt Sally, I think I just
generally don't like Harry.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
And he's quite chauvinistic.
Speaker 5 (21:30):
But again, I love that movie, like the characters, Marie's incredible, Like,
there's so much about that movie I love. I just
am You've got male girl at heart.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
So Sleepless in Seattle is that's the one getting the acts?
Speaker 4 (21:44):
It is?
Speaker 5 (21:45):
There are aspects of Sleepless and Seattle that I enjoy,
and the concept I like.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
I don't like how Meg and Tom aren't.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
Really ever in the film together aside from the or
like they're only in the film together for like two
and one is the end. I also feel like it's
a bit stockersh the whole concept. It's not my favorite
of the rom com trio. That said, I do enjoy
it when it's on and there's like a lot of
beautiful elements to it.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's funny when you rewatch the movies from our childhood
and you're like, that doesn't that doesn't quite track for me,
that doesn't quite add up.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I kind of like that Rita Wilson and Tom Hanks
are in the film together. It's not the film that
they met on, but it's fun to see real life
relationships on screen and especially in hindsight.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Yeah, and I will say, like, I think one of
the best, one of the best, if not the best
moment of the film is Rita Wilson doing her like
teary monologue retelling of an affair show Remember, is just
amazing cinema.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
It's also interesting to me how Norah utilizes technology of
the time as part of her storytelling, often like this
was radio, obviously email. Like, I do think she was
very of the moment in her storytelling.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Yeah, I feel like she sometimes was ahead of her
time or a little bit more on the pulse than
other people who were like maybe denying that like email
was going to take over. I wonder how she'd feel,
I mean, I wonder how she'd feel about other aspects
of technology now.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
But alas I.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Know if she was alive, we might get a movie
about texting her, dating apps, dating apps, texting AI.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well, Alana, thank you so much for coming on the
bright Side, and congratulations on your book Naura Efron at
the Movies.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Thank you so much for having me, and thank you
for doing this today.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Thanks Alana.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Alana Kaplan is a journalist and author of the book
Nora Efron at the Movies.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're back to popping
off with our bright Side be see and very own
showrunner Tim Paalazola. Join the conversation using hashtag the bright
Side and connect with us on social media at Hello
Sunshine on Instagram and at the bright Side Pod on
TikTok oh, and feel free to tag us at Simone
Boyce and at Danielle Robe.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.
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Simone Boyce
Danielle Robay
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