June 26, 2024 • 25 mins
Dr. Aditi Nerurkar is a leading expert in stress management and resilience. She joins the show to give actionable advice on navigating stress and burnout, and finding joy amidst life's challenges. She lays out how stress impacts our bodies, the differences between healthy and unhealthy stress, and gives practical techniques like "stop, breathe, be" to manage stress in real time. Dr. Nerurkar shares insights from her book "The Five Resets: Rewire Your Brain and Body for Less Stress and More Resilience.”
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey bam, Hello sunshine. Today on the bright Side, it's
Wellness Wednesday, and we're talking stress with physician and public
health expert doctor Aditina Rucar. We're learning about how stress
shows up in our bodies and actual tools to help
manage it right in the moment. It's Wednesday, June twenty sixth.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm Danielle Robe and I'm Simone Voice, and this is
the bright side from Hello Sunshine, see money.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I came across the statistic that really shocked me. Tell me,
thirty four percent of Americans reported that their stress is
completely overwhelming on most days. So I imagine that a
majority of people deal with stress on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I know I do.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
But to think that over a quarter of the population
feels just completely overwhelmed by it daily, that's pretty concerning.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
It makes me wonder what more can we do to
control it and to treat it and to manage it.
I mean, I certainly have my days, but I'm at
the stage in my life, Danielle where my stress, in
my burnout isn't as much related to my career. It's
really my home life. It's like being a parent, you know,
it's managing a home it's all of those things.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
How about you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I totally get that. You know, I actually don't notice
that I'm stressed. I had a therapist tell me that
I don't notice that I'm anxious because I've just run anxious.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
My whole life.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I guess, but I don't like feel it in my body. Really,
I never considered myself a stressed out person. And then
I'll take a vacation and I wake up by the
beach or not having all the to do lists, and
I realize how stressed I actually am that I'm running
at such a high meter all the time.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Do you ever have that one hundred percent? Well, I
think a lot of the stress that's in our lives
is because we overschedule ourselves. I was recently researching happiness,
and the only way to allow room for spontaneity and
serendipity in our life, which creates more happiness is to
move away from overscheduling to allow room for flexibility and looseness.
(02:09):
I think that's kind of a way that we can
treat stress too.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I love that you said that because I actually interviewed
somebody on happiness and they said, it's not about trying
to get more time it's about making the time you
have rich.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
But we've got a lot of theories as always, Danielle,
there's no shortage of theories between us. But today it's
time to get answers, and we're going straight to doctor
Aditi Narukar for that. She's a physician at the Harvard
Medical School, a mental health expert who specializes in stress management, resilience,
and burnout, and she says she strives to leave people
feeling optimistic and empowered to make meaningful changes in their
(02:45):
lives by understanding stress and managing it. I think it
starts with making small, meaningful changes that have a lasting,
cumulative effect.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Doctor Narukar is the author of the Five Resets Rewire
Your Brain and Body for Less Stress and More Resilience.
In her book, she offers bite sized, yet actionable resets
to implement into our everyday lives.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Danielle, let's get right to it. I think we could
use some stress help right now, so we're going to
bring in doctor a Dt. Doctor a DT, welcome to
the bright Side.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
I am so happy to be here with both of you.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
We are so happy to have you, and you are
a leading expert in the study of stress and resilience.
So we have a ton of questions about how better
to identify and cope with stress. But before we get
into solutions, will you talk about stress from a physiological standpoint,
like what is happening in our bodies when we feel stressed.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
When you are feeling a sense of stress, your brain
is led by the amygdala. It is a small almond
shape structure deep in the brain, and its main purpose
is survival and self preservation. Your amygdalah turns on when
you feel a sense of stress because it is trying
to keep you safe. What's fascinating about the science is
(04:02):
that there are two kinds of stress, and not all
stress is created equal. You have the healthy, positive, good
kind of stress, and then you have the unhealthy negative stress.
So when you and I and everyone say, you know,
I'm having a stressful day, It's been a really hard
week and I'm so stressed, what we're talking about is
that bad kind of unhealthy stress. In scientific terms, it's
(04:23):
known as maladaptive stress. The healthy kind of stress is
known as adaptive stress. Healthy positive stress moves your life forward.
Examples are maybe rooting for your favorite sports team, falling
in love, getting a new house, or buying a new car, graduating,
all of these things, meeting your new best friend. All
of these things are positive, healthy things that happen in
(04:46):
your life, and they help move your life forward. Unhealthy
stress is what causes the problems, both mental and physical.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
The goal of life.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Is not to live a life with zero stress. It's
actually biologically impossible to do that. I live a life
with healthy, manageable stress that can serve you rather than
harve you.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I'm stuck on this idea of good stress. I don't
know that I understand it because I've always associated stress
with a negative connotation in my mind. So can you
elaborate on how we reframe how to think about stress.
Is it similar to cholesterol, where there's good stress and
bad stress.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
That's a great analogy. I love it.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
So when you and I, Simone, or you know, you're
talking to your friends, your colleagues, you're like, oh my god.
If you and Danielle are having a tough week. On
the bright side, you have a lot of interviews and
many things happening, You're like, wow, this is a really
stressful week. We use the word stress, we throw it
around in everyday language, and it's actually maladaptive stress that
we're talking about, but the good kind of stress. The
(05:48):
reason good stress even exists for the brain in the
body is because your brain needs time and space to
adapt to a change, even if it's something positive. That
is why change is considered a stress to the brain.
Even positive change is energy.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
A way to think of stress. When you were telling
me about all those positive changes, I was thinking about
like energetic momentum.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Yeah, So you know, in physics especially, there is that
potential energy and kinetic energy.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Right, potential energy.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Is still and stagnant, and then kinetic energy is energy
in motion. And your brain doesn't know the difference between
being excited or being fearful. And so what you can
do when you're thinking about the energy of you know,
new changes in your life or new events in your life.
When you feel that sense of fear, the energy of fear,
(06:43):
you can transform it into the energy of excitement by
just reframing that conversation.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
In your head. But it has to be within a
certain bounds.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Meaning, if that stress is this runaway train that's just
going on and on, it's hard to feel a sense
of excitement, right because you are so overwhelmed with your
stress your brain and your body because the mind body connection,
that amygdala is like volume twenty, and so you want
to get that amygdalah back to volume five and hopefully
off all together so that it feels that that healthy
(07:15):
stress that you have can feel productive and beneficial to
your life and it can help you thrive rather than
just merely being in survival mode.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I want to talk about the mind body connection a
little more because we talked about where stress lives in
the body, But how do you recognize it in your body?
Because I think it could be confused maybe with anxiety.
Do you feel it in your gut? How do you
know when you're stressed out?
Speaker 4 (07:41):
That is the million dollar question, because there are truly
one million flavors of stress and everyone has a different manifestation.
I like to say that it's the canary in the
coal mine, and we all have a canary song. And
you know, historically coal miners going down into the minds,
they would bring a canary with them, and the canary
(08:04):
a bird would sing and the minute the air got bad,
the singing would stop, and then they would say, oh
wait a second, it's time to get out of the
coal mines. And we all have a canary song, you know.
For me, I was a stress patient before I became
an expert in stress, and my canary song was a
stampede of wild horses. It felt like my chesty palpitations.
(08:26):
For other people, their canary song could be headaches or dizziness, fatigue,
abdominal pain, feeling anxious or irritable, a sense of hypervigilance,
being quick to anger head to toe. There are so
many things that your body can do in terms of
signs and symptoms. Of course, the first is to always
talk to your doctor to see what the cause of
(08:47):
your whatever sign is. And then often if there is
no cause, we say it's a diagnosis of exclusion. That's
what we say stress is. And surprisingly, sixty to eighty
percent of all doctors' visits here in the US have
a stress related component. Even though only three percent of
doctors counsel their patients for stress.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
That's a huge percentage.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
We're taking a quick break, but when we come back,
doctor Narukar tells us how we can rewire our brain
to experience less stress, and we're back with doctor Narukar. Okay, doctor,
(09:32):
it is very clear to me that some people exhibit
high stress and some people are just really care free.
Are there one, two, or three things that you think
the average person can do to lower their stress levels.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Of the many things that you could do, you can
do something called stop Breathe B. It's a three second exercise.
It can help reset your stress and help to rewire
your brain and body over time. That's what you want
to do, and we can do it together. You stop
whatever you're doing, you breathe, Take a deep breath in
and out, and you be so you think about your
(10:05):
body if you are standing up, or maybe you're doing dishes,
or in the morning when you're getting your kids ready
for school, or right before you know you click join zoom.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
That's a great time.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
To do it because you want to practice stop breathe
B the three second reset right before a mundane, repetitive task.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
The more mundane the better.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Something that you're about to start that's going to bring
a cascade and flood of stress and negative emotions. And
so stop breathebe can work because it taps into your
mind body connection. It gets you out of that what
if thinking future doom and gloom the amygdala, and back
to what is in the here and now. It grounds
(10:50):
you in the present moment. And if you practice stop
Breathe B throughout the day. I used to practice at
twenty thirty times throughout the day at different moments, it
can help decrease your sense of anxiety and overwhelm that
feeling of hypervigilance anxiousness, and in time tap into your
mind body connection.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
So the more that we practice these stress relieving techniques
like stop Breathe B, the easier it becomes to regulate
stress in the body and mind.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
There is this term called neuroplasticity. It's a very long,
fancy medical word. It simply means that your brain is
a muscle. So just like you would train a bicep,
you would do you know, ten bicep curls, and you'd fatigue,
and then the next day maybe you would do twenty,
and over time you can get stronger with your muscles,
(11:38):
your biceps. Your brain can do the same thing. And
so as you keep practicing stop Breathe B and all
the other techniques that you do to rewire your brain
for less stress, what happens over time is that that
information in your brain goes from like a one lane
dirt road into this like eight Lane Highway.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I came across this survey from twenty twenty one that
really struck me. It was surveyed fifteen hundred workers and
found that more than half of them felt burned out
from their jobs. Women have reported higher levels of burnout
than men, and as of twenty twenty one, that gap
had more than doubled. Is there a difference between stress
(12:15):
and burnout?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
You can think of it this way.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Stress is a short term thing, right, Like, ideally you
have stress, it's something that happens and you come back
to baseline, and burnout is what happens when that baseline
is never reached. It's just this ongoing stress. So that's
what increases your risk of burnout. The fascinating thing about
burnout over the past several years is that the definition
(12:40):
has really changed. So back in twenty nineteen is when
it was finally recognized by the WHO as an occupational
phenomenon and it was recognized as like a real clinical syndrome.
It finally gave a name to something that many workers
were feeling. But over the past several years, what burnout
looks like in the face of burn has really changed.
(13:00):
So when you think about classical symptoms of burnout, you
think of someone who's apathetic or disengage, not very motivated, lethargic.
So in one most recent study, sixty percent of people
with burnout had an inability to disconnect from work as
their main feature. But increasingly, it's burnout is becoming difficult
to identify in yourself and others, simply because what burnout
(13:24):
looks like has really changed.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Women have reported higher levels of burnout than men for years.
Some of the reasons I've heard are that women are
more likely to be heads of single parent families, more
likely to take on unpaid labor, less likely to be
promoted than men, so there's financial stress. Do women biologically,
physiologically experience burnout different than men?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
I will say that there is nothing inherently different in
a woman's biology and a men's biology in terms of
stress and burnout. However, we are socialized to experience burnout
and stress differently, many of us women. We really abide
by this resilience myth that if you are feeling burnt out,
(14:09):
you must not be that resilient, which is a complete
myth because we know that even amongst the most resilient people,
thirty percent still experience burnout. So resilience is protective, but
it's not enough to prevent burnout. And the second thing
that many women and people in general, but particularly women
face is this idea of toxic resilience, which is, you've
(14:32):
heard of toxic positivity, but toxic resilience is a manifestation
of hustle culture is pushing past boundaries, productivity at all costs,
and inability to say no. And true resilience leans into
this idea of self compassion and giving yourself grace. Toxic
resilience doesn't. What does toxic resilience look like? Just look
(14:54):
around you know, you can take on that extra deadline.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
You're resilient.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Or you can manage take care of your kids and
working at full speed. You're resilient. You don't need my help,
You're resilient. These are messages of toxic resilience, and so
we really need to reframe the conversation not just about
stress and good stress and bad stress, but also resilience,
like what is true resilience? What is toxic resilience? And
especially when it comes to women, we are so prone
(15:20):
sidally because of infrastructure, to really get so down on ourselves,
but in fact you are resilient humans, individuals and women.
We are resilient. It's the systems that are burning us out.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
I have interviewed a few people on burnout, mostly because
I always thought that it was sort of like a
false term. I kind of put it in the box
of gen Z kids who were overly emotional or weak.
And then I experienced it myself. And I hate to
admit that I had to experience it to believe it,
(15:57):
but I did for this, and I realized that the
antidote to burnout is not rest, it's actually joy and connection.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Yeah, I mean you need a complete overhaul, right, Like
so often people say, oh, like you're burnt out. I
mean that's what happened with me when I was going
through my stress struggle.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
My doctor.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
I went to see my doctor. She did the full
work up and said, oh, you're just really stressed. You're
probably burnt out. Just try to relax more. So, you know,
I did all of those things. I watched movies, retail therapy,
hung out with friends, spend time with family.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Bought a nice leather jacket.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Yeah, you know, I was like, oh, this is relaxing, right,
But nothing was working, and so what really shifted for
me is when I understood the science of what happens
to the brain and the body with stress and burnout
and how you can actively change. So the antidote to
burnout is yes, joy and purpose. But when you are
(16:57):
feeling that sense of burnout, like when you are running
on complete fumes, if you say to that person, as
I have, you know many of my patients, right, just
find some joy and purpose. It feels very difficult because
it feels like that's the top of the mountain and
I'm so not there right now. Instead, you know, try
(17:17):
to focus on your sleep. So really protect your sleep.
Think of it as the vital resource it is. Fill
up that tank a little bit. You know you're running
on fumes. Get out and walk for five minutes a day.
You don't have to run a marathon, you don't even
have to walk for an hour, just five minutes of
moving your body. Nourish yourself, stay hydrated.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Do these small.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Things, you know, stay off of social media if you can,
or create some digital boundaries, and over time you will
fill up that tank and then you can find your
joy and purpose and really find a way out. But
so often when people are feeling burnt out and really
in that state of despair, they feel a greater sense
(17:57):
of burden when you know, when we like, oh, just
find something that brings you joy, because at that time,
that experience of burnout feels so joyless and they don't
even know where to turn.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Often, we got to take a short break, but don't
go anywhere, because when we come back, doctor Narukar is
revealing the scientific benefits behind touching grass.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
And we're back. So we have some specific scenarios that
we'd love your perspective and advice on the first one
is something I've felt at past jobs. I'm not going
to name names, but the Sunday scaries are real, and
that feeling of dread that comes ahead of starting a
new week. How can we ward off that noise and
not let it take over the weekend or even feel
stressed out before we go to bed.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
So the Sunday scaries are real and I've felt those.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
The reason you feel the Sunday scaries is because anxiety
is a future focused emotion. It's all the one ifs, right,
like what if this happens, what if that happens, What
if this happens? It's doom and gloom thinking, and like
we talked about earlier in our conversation, it's about shifting
away from what if and back to what is. One
very simple technique that you can do is have something
(19:15):
to look forward to and plan out on a Monday.
So do something that brings you a lot of joy, yeah,
and then again plan something later on in the week.
When you have that sense of looking forward to it.
You know, there's lots of reasons why you have Sunday scaries,
and it ebbs and flows. If it's happening once in
a while you're feeling that sense of Sunday scaries, that's okay.
But if it is happening for months and months and
(19:36):
months at a time and debilitating, then it's time to
take a closer look into what's happening and what's causing
you to have those Sunday scaries for Monday.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Doctor Narkar, I was listening to talk about toxic resilience
and I was like, wow, that is such a profound
term and that is so smart to talk about it
and want to encourage people to avoid it. And resilience
is a part of my reality as a parent. I
have no choice but to be resilient because there are
so many stressors that are sent my way as a
(20:08):
mom of two active little boys. So what's your advice
on navigating parental burnout? How can we extend self compassion
when we're walking through that.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
I love this question because I have to coach myself
every single day, simon, because I too as a working mother.
You know, we're so hard on ourselves. First and foremost,
give yourself lots of grace. Self compassion is just not
a nice to have. When we change our self talk
and that inner critic it has a direct effect on
(20:40):
your omigdala dials down the volume of your amygdala, and
so really leaning into that sense of grace and self
compassion is really really important. Of course, we know based
on the science and also just our lived experience as
parents that having a sense of community is so important.
Loneliness to parenting is a real issue. Loneliness is at
(21:03):
epidemic proportions all throughout America and the world. Frankly, but
you know, for parents, especially especially when you have young kids,
making sure that you have a tribe so you're not
going through it alone. And finally, to really normalize and
validate the difficult experience that all of us are having,
whether we be parents or if we aren't parents or
(21:24):
parents to fur babies. You know, we're all caregivers in
some capacity and understanding that caregiving as an act, it's
a beautiful thing, but it also takes a lot of
out of you. And when you're running on fumes, it's
just very difficult normalizing and validating the difficult experience of
whether it be stress or burnout or parental burnout or
whatever it is you're experiencing. When you can do that,
(21:48):
you can show up for yourself and for others in
a much deeper way.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Okay, So Simona and I have been known to use
the phrase touch grass on this podcast, which to us
means like go take a break, but also it means
grounding yourself, coming down to earth, and we've heard you
talk about grounding now in this podcast. Obviously nature is
so good for our mental health. Are there scientific benefits
(22:13):
to touching grass? Oh?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
I love when people on social media like as the
clap back, they're like, go touch some grass, dude. It
always makes me laugh too. I find it so hysterical.
So there's a Japanese custom called forest bathing. And it's
a beautiful concept. It simply means that you go into nature,
and not specifically grass per se, but just like a
(22:38):
area with lush nature, with lots of green and trees,
and you just bathe yourself in the forest. I have
not studied the science deeply, but I can tell you
what happens to you from the brain standpoint. You feel
a sense of awe and you feel a sense of
connection you tap into. Danielle, you alluded to this purpose
(22:58):
and meaning. There are two kinds of happiness. There is
he done happiness. He Donic happiness is like getting that
new bag or the new shoes, or taking a trip,
or you know, buying a new car, easy things that
we look at as oh, that person must be so
happy they have all of these things in their life.
(23:19):
But there is another kind of happiness, you dimonic happiness.
You dimonic happiness is not like the thrill and the
joy and all of that that he done happiness is You.
Dimonic happiness is about contentment, purpose, meaning. And so when
you're in the forest, when you're on nature, when you
(23:40):
look at the ocean, when you look at tall mountains,
you feel that deep sense of purpose and meaning that
sense of belonging, and in fact, your brain and your
body know the difference. In one study, he done happiness
was compared to you diaimonic happiness, and your cells know
the difference, and your DNA knows the difference between the two,
(24:02):
and he donnic happiness didn't have the same benefits as
you daimonic happiness. And so really doing things, you know, unplugging,
being out in nature, like you say, touch grass, doing
things that are all inspiring that make you feel a
sense of connection and that feeling of you dimonic happiness, contentment, purpose, meaning,
(24:25):
that is what's so therapeutic, and that's why going out
in nature feels so so good.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I'm adding a new word to my lexicon. It's you
demonic happiness. Me dimonic happiness? Is you dimonic happiness?
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I love it?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Doctor Narukar, thank you so much for sharing your expertise
here with us. On the bright side, we really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Thank you so much, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Guys. Doctor Adit Narukar is an internal medicine physician at
Harvard and a stress, resilience and public health expert. That's
it for today's show. Tomorrow, we've got sisters and best
selling authors Amber Ruffin and Lacey Lamar. They're here on
(25:08):
the bright Side to talk comedy, family, and so much more.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
I'm simone Voice. You can find me at simone Voice
on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
That's ro b A.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Y see you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.
Hey bam, Hello sunshine. Today on the bright Side, it's
Wellness Wednesday, and we're talking stress with physician and public
health expert doctor Aditina Rucar. We're learning about how stress
shows up in our bodies and actual tools to help
manage it right in the moment. It's Wednesday, June twenty sixth.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm Danielle Robe and I'm Simone Voice, and this is
the bright side from Hello Sunshine, see money.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I came across the statistic that really shocked me. Tell me,
thirty four percent of Americans reported that their stress is
completely overwhelming on most days. So I imagine that a
majority of people deal with stress on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I know I do.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
But to think that over a quarter of the population
feels just completely overwhelmed by it daily, that's pretty concerning.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
It makes me wonder what more can we do to
control it and to treat it and to manage it.
I mean, I certainly have my days, but I'm at
the stage in my life, Danielle where my stress, in
my burnout isn't as much related to my career. It's
really my home life. It's like being a parent, you know,
it's managing a home it's all of those things.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
How about you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I totally get that. You know, I actually don't notice
that I'm stressed. I had a therapist tell me that
I don't notice that I'm anxious because I've just run anxious.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
My whole life.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I guess, but I don't like feel it in my body. Really,
I never considered myself a stressed out person. And then
I'll take a vacation and I wake up by the
beach or not having all the to do lists, and
I realize how stressed I actually am that I'm running
at such a high meter all the time.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Do you ever have that one hundred percent? Well, I
think a lot of the stress that's in our lives
is because we overschedule ourselves. I was recently researching happiness,
and the only way to allow room for spontaneity and
serendipity in our life, which creates more happiness is to
move away from overscheduling to allow room for flexibility and looseness.
(02:09):
I think that's kind of a way that we can
treat stress too.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I love that you said that because I actually interviewed
somebody on happiness and they said, it's not about trying
to get more time it's about making the time you
have rich.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
But we've got a lot of theories as always, Danielle,
there's no shortage of theories between us. But today it's
time to get answers, and we're going straight to doctor
Aditi Narukar for that. She's a physician at the Harvard
Medical School, a mental health expert who specializes in stress management, resilience,
and burnout, and she says she strives to leave people
feeling optimistic and empowered to make meaningful changes in their
(02:45):
lives by understanding stress and managing it. I think it
starts with making small, meaningful changes that have a lasting,
cumulative effect.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Doctor Narukar is the author of the Five Resets Rewire
Your Brain and Body for Less Stress and More Resilience.
In her book, she offers bite sized, yet actionable resets
to implement into our everyday lives.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Danielle, let's get right to it. I think we could
use some stress help right now, so we're going to
bring in doctor a Dt. Doctor a DT, welcome to
the bright Side.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
I am so happy to be here with both of you.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
We are so happy to have you, and you are
a leading expert in the study of stress and resilience.
So we have a ton of questions about how better
to identify and cope with stress. But before we get
into solutions, will you talk about stress from a physiological standpoint,
like what is happening in our bodies when we feel stressed.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
When you are feeling a sense of stress, your brain
is led by the amygdala. It is a small almond
shape structure deep in the brain, and its main purpose
is survival and self preservation. Your amygdalah turns on when
you feel a sense of stress because it is trying
to keep you safe. What's fascinating about the science is
(04:02):
that there are two kinds of stress, and not all
stress is created equal. You have the healthy, positive, good
kind of stress, and then you have the unhealthy negative stress.
So when you and I and everyone say, you know,
I'm having a stressful day, It's been a really hard
week and I'm so stressed, what we're talking about is
that bad kind of unhealthy stress. In scientific terms, it's
(04:23):
known as maladaptive stress. The healthy kind of stress is
known as adaptive stress. Healthy positive stress moves your life forward.
Examples are maybe rooting for your favorite sports team, falling
in love, getting a new house, or buying a new car, graduating,
all of these things, meeting your new best friend. All
of these things are positive, healthy things that happen in
(04:46):
your life, and they help move your life forward. Unhealthy
stress is what causes the problems, both mental and physical.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
The goal of life.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Is not to live a life with zero stress. It's
actually biologically impossible to do that. I live a life
with healthy, manageable stress that can serve you rather than
harve you.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I'm stuck on this idea of good stress. I don't
know that I understand it because I've always associated stress
with a negative connotation in my mind. So can you
elaborate on how we reframe how to think about stress.
Is it similar to cholesterol, where there's good stress and
bad stress.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
That's a great analogy. I love it.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
So when you and I, Simone, or you know, you're
talking to your friends, your colleagues, you're like, oh my god.
If you and Danielle are having a tough week. On
the bright side, you have a lot of interviews and
many things happening, You're like, wow, this is a really
stressful week. We use the word stress, we throw it
around in everyday language, and it's actually maladaptive stress that
we're talking about, but the good kind of stress. The
(05:48):
reason good stress even exists for the brain in the
body is because your brain needs time and space to
adapt to a change, even if it's something positive. That
is why change is considered a stress to the brain.
Even positive change is energy.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
A way to think of stress. When you were telling
me about all those positive changes, I was thinking about
like energetic momentum.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Yeah, So you know, in physics especially, there is that
potential energy and kinetic energy.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Right, potential energy.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Is still and stagnant, and then kinetic energy is energy
in motion. And your brain doesn't know the difference between
being excited or being fearful. And so what you can
do when you're thinking about the energy of you know,
new changes in your life or new events in your life.
When you feel that sense of fear, the energy of fear,
(06:43):
you can transform it into the energy of excitement by
just reframing that conversation.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
In your head. But it has to be within a
certain bounds.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Meaning, if that stress is this runaway train that's just
going on and on, it's hard to feel a sense
of excitement, right because you are so overwhelmed with your
stress your brain and your body because the mind body connection,
that amygdala is like volume twenty, and so you want
to get that amygdalah back to volume five and hopefully
off all together so that it feels that that healthy
(07:15):
stress that you have can feel productive and beneficial to
your life and it can help you thrive rather than
just merely being in survival mode.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I want to talk about the mind body connection a
little more because we talked about where stress lives in
the body, But how do you recognize it in your body?
Because I think it could be confused maybe with anxiety.
Do you feel it in your gut? How do you
know when you're stressed out?
Speaker 4 (07:41):
That is the million dollar question, because there are truly
one million flavors of stress and everyone has a different manifestation.
I like to say that it's the canary in the
coal mine, and we all have a canary song. And
you know, historically coal miners going down into the minds,
they would bring a canary with them, and the canary
(08:04):
a bird would sing and the minute the air got bad,
the singing would stop, and then they would say, oh
wait a second, it's time to get out of the
coal mines. And we all have a canary song, you know.
For me, I was a stress patient before I became
an expert in stress, and my canary song was a
stampede of wild horses. It felt like my chesty palpitations.
(08:26):
For other people, their canary song could be headaches or dizziness, fatigue,
abdominal pain, feeling anxious or irritable, a sense of hypervigilance,
being quick to anger head to toe. There are so
many things that your body can do in terms of
signs and symptoms. Of course, the first is to always
talk to your doctor to see what the cause of
(08:47):
your whatever sign is. And then often if there is
no cause, we say it's a diagnosis of exclusion. That's
what we say stress is. And surprisingly, sixty to eighty
percent of all doctors' visits here in the US have
a stress related component. Even though only three percent of
doctors counsel their patients for stress.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
That's a huge percentage.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
We're taking a quick break, but when we come back,
doctor Narukar tells us how we can rewire our brain
to experience less stress, and we're back with doctor Narukar. Okay, doctor,
(09:32):
it is very clear to me that some people exhibit
high stress and some people are just really care free.
Are there one, two, or three things that you think
the average person can do to lower their stress levels.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Of the many things that you could do, you can
do something called stop Breathe B. It's a three second exercise.
It can help reset your stress and help to rewire
your brain and body over time. That's what you want
to do, and we can do it together. You stop
whatever you're doing, you breathe, Take a deep breath in
and out, and you be so you think about your
(10:05):
body if you are standing up, or maybe you're doing dishes,
or in the morning when you're getting your kids ready
for school, or right before you know you click join zoom.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
That's a great time.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
To do it because you want to practice stop breathe
B the three second reset right before a mundane, repetitive task.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
The more mundane the better.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Something that you're about to start that's going to bring
a cascade and flood of stress and negative emotions. And
so stop breathebe can work because it taps into your
mind body connection. It gets you out of that what
if thinking future doom and gloom the amygdala, and back
to what is in the here and now. It grounds
(10:50):
you in the present moment. And if you practice stop
Breathe B throughout the day. I used to practice at
twenty thirty times throughout the day at different moments, it
can help decrease your sense of anxiety and overwhelm that
feeling of hypervigilance anxiousness, and in time tap into your
mind body connection.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
So the more that we practice these stress relieving techniques
like stop Breathe B, the easier it becomes to regulate
stress in the body and mind.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
There is this term called neuroplasticity. It's a very long,
fancy medical word. It simply means that your brain is
a muscle. So just like you would train a bicep,
you would do you know, ten bicep curls, and you'd fatigue,
and then the next day maybe you would do twenty,
and over time you can get stronger with your muscles,
(11:38):
your biceps. Your brain can do the same thing. And
so as you keep practicing stop Breathe B and all
the other techniques that you do to rewire your brain
for less stress, what happens over time is that that
information in your brain goes from like a one lane
dirt road into this like eight Lane Highway.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I came across this survey from twenty twenty one that
really struck me. It was surveyed fifteen hundred workers and
found that more than half of them felt burned out
from their jobs. Women have reported higher levels of burnout
than men, and as of twenty twenty one, that gap
had more than doubled. Is there a difference between stress
(12:15):
and burnout?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
You can think of it this way.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Stress is a short term thing, right, Like, ideally you
have stress, it's something that happens and you come back
to baseline, and burnout is what happens when that baseline
is never reached. It's just this ongoing stress. So that's
what increases your risk of burnout. The fascinating thing about
burnout over the past several years is that the definition
(12:40):
has really changed. So back in twenty nineteen is when
it was finally recognized by the WHO as an occupational
phenomenon and it was recognized as like a real clinical syndrome.
It finally gave a name to something that many workers
were feeling. But over the past several years, what burnout
looks like in the face of burn has really changed.
(13:00):
So when you think about classical symptoms of burnout, you
think of someone who's apathetic or disengage, not very motivated, lethargic.
So in one most recent study, sixty percent of people
with burnout had an inability to disconnect from work as
their main feature. But increasingly, it's burnout is becoming difficult
to identify in yourself and others, simply because what burnout
(13:24):
looks like has really changed.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Women have reported higher levels of burnout than men for years.
Some of the reasons I've heard are that women are
more likely to be heads of single parent families, more
likely to take on unpaid labor, less likely to be
promoted than men, so there's financial stress. Do women biologically,
physiologically experience burnout different than men?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
I will say that there is nothing inherently different in
a woman's biology and a men's biology in terms of
stress and burnout. However, we are socialized to experience burnout
and stress differently, many of us women. We really abide
by this resilience myth that if you are feeling burnt out,
(14:09):
you must not be that resilient, which is a complete
myth because we know that even amongst the most resilient people,
thirty percent still experience burnout. So resilience is protective, but
it's not enough to prevent burnout. And the second thing
that many women and people in general, but particularly women
face is this idea of toxic resilience, which is, you've
(14:32):
heard of toxic positivity, but toxic resilience is a manifestation
of hustle culture is pushing past boundaries, productivity at all costs,
and inability to say no. And true resilience leans into
this idea of self compassion and giving yourself grace. Toxic
resilience doesn't. What does toxic resilience look like? Just look
(14:54):
around you know, you can take on that extra deadline.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
You're resilient.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Or you can manage take care of your kids and
working at full speed. You're resilient. You don't need my help,
You're resilient. These are messages of toxic resilience, and so
we really need to reframe the conversation not just about
stress and good stress and bad stress, but also resilience,
like what is true resilience? What is toxic resilience? And
especially when it comes to women, we are so prone
(15:20):
sidally because of infrastructure, to really get so down on ourselves,
but in fact you are resilient humans, individuals and women.
We are resilient. It's the systems that are burning us out.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
I have interviewed a few people on burnout, mostly because
I always thought that it was sort of like a
false term. I kind of put it in the box
of gen Z kids who were overly emotional or weak.
And then I experienced it myself. And I hate to
admit that I had to experience it to believe it,
(15:57):
but I did for this, and I realized that the
antidote to burnout is not rest, it's actually joy and connection.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Yeah, I mean you need a complete overhaul, right, Like
so often people say, oh, like you're burnt out. I
mean that's what happened with me when I was going
through my stress struggle.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
My doctor.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
I went to see my doctor. She did the full
work up and said, oh, you're just really stressed. You're
probably burnt out. Just try to relax more. So, you know,
I did all of those things. I watched movies, retail therapy,
hung out with friends, spend time with family.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Bought a nice leather jacket.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Yeah, you know, I was like, oh, this is relaxing, right,
But nothing was working, and so what really shifted for
me is when I understood the science of what happens
to the brain and the body with stress and burnout
and how you can actively change. So the antidote to
burnout is yes, joy and purpose. But when you are
(16:57):
feeling that sense of burnout, like when you are running
on complete fumes, if you say to that person, as
I have, you know many of my patients, right, just
find some joy and purpose. It feels very difficult because
it feels like that's the top of the mountain and
I'm so not there right now. Instead, you know, try
(17:17):
to focus on your sleep. So really protect your sleep.
Think of it as the vital resource it is. Fill
up that tank a little bit. You know you're running
on fumes. Get out and walk for five minutes a day.
You don't have to run a marathon, you don't even
have to walk for an hour, just five minutes of
moving your body. Nourish yourself, stay hydrated.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Do these small.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Things, you know, stay off of social media if you can,
or create some digital boundaries, and over time you will
fill up that tank and then you can find your
joy and purpose and really find a way out. But
so often when people are feeling burnt out and really
in that state of despair, they feel a greater sense
(17:57):
of burden when you know, when we like, oh, just
find something that brings you joy, because at that time,
that experience of burnout feels so joyless and they don't
even know where to turn.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Often, we got to take a short break, but don't
go anywhere, because when we come back, doctor Narukar is
revealing the scientific benefits behind touching grass.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
And we're back. So we have some specific scenarios that
we'd love your perspective and advice on the first one
is something I've felt at past jobs. I'm not going
to name names, but the Sunday scaries are real, and
that feeling of dread that comes ahead of starting a
new week. How can we ward off that noise and
not let it take over the weekend or even feel
stressed out before we go to bed.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
So the Sunday scaries are real and I've felt those.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
The reason you feel the Sunday scaries is because anxiety
is a future focused emotion. It's all the one ifs, right,
like what if this happens, what if that happens, What
if this happens? It's doom and gloom thinking, and like
we talked about earlier in our conversation, it's about shifting
away from what if and back to what is. One
very simple technique that you can do is have something
(19:15):
to look forward to and plan out on a Monday.
So do something that brings you a lot of joy, yeah,
and then again plan something later on in the week.
When you have that sense of looking forward to it.
You know, there's lots of reasons why you have Sunday scaries,
and it ebbs and flows. If it's happening once in
a while you're feeling that sense of Sunday scaries, that's okay.
But if it is happening for months and months and
(19:36):
months at a time and debilitating, then it's time to
take a closer look into what's happening and what's causing
you to have those Sunday scaries for Monday.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Doctor Narkar, I was listening to talk about toxic resilience
and I was like, wow, that is such a profound
term and that is so smart to talk about it
and want to encourage people to avoid it. And resilience
is a part of my reality as a parent. I
have no choice but to be resilient because there are
so many stressors that are sent my way as a
(20:08):
mom of two active little boys. So what's your advice
on navigating parental burnout? How can we extend self compassion
when we're walking through that.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
I love this question because I have to coach myself
every single day, simon, because I too as a working mother.
You know, we're so hard on ourselves. First and foremost,
give yourself lots of grace. Self compassion is just not
a nice to have. When we change our self talk
and that inner critic it has a direct effect on
(20:40):
your omigdala dials down the volume of your amygdala, and
so really leaning into that sense of grace and self
compassion is really really important. Of course, we know based
on the science and also just our lived experience as
parents that having a sense of community is so important.
Loneliness to parenting is a real issue. Loneliness is at
(21:03):
epidemic proportions all throughout America and the world. Frankly, but
you know, for parents, especially especially when you have young kids,
making sure that you have a tribe so you're not
going through it alone. And finally, to really normalize and
validate the difficult experience that all of us are having,
whether we be parents or if we aren't parents or
(21:24):
parents to fur babies. You know, we're all caregivers in
some capacity and understanding that caregiving as an act, it's
a beautiful thing, but it also takes a lot of
out of you. And when you're running on fumes, it's
just very difficult normalizing and validating the difficult experience of
whether it be stress or burnout or parental burnout or
whatever it is you're experiencing. When you can do that,
(21:48):
you can show up for yourself and for others in
a much deeper way.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Okay, So Simona and I have been known to use
the phrase touch grass on this podcast, which to us
means like go take a break, but also it means
grounding yourself, coming down to earth, and we've heard you
talk about grounding now in this podcast. Obviously nature is
so good for our mental health. Are there scientific benefits
(22:13):
to touching grass? Oh?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
I love when people on social media like as the
clap back, they're like, go touch some grass, dude. It
always makes me laugh too. I find it so hysterical.
So there's a Japanese custom called forest bathing. And it's
a beautiful concept. It simply means that you go into nature,
and not specifically grass per se, but just like a
(22:38):
area with lush nature, with lots of green and trees,
and you just bathe yourself in the forest. I have
not studied the science deeply, but I can tell you
what happens to you from the brain standpoint. You feel
a sense of awe and you feel a sense of
connection you tap into. Danielle, you alluded to this purpose
(22:58):
and meaning. There are two kinds of happiness. There is
he done happiness. He Donic happiness is like getting that
new bag or the new shoes, or taking a trip,
or you know, buying a new car, easy things that
we look at as oh, that person must be so
happy they have all of these things in their life.
(23:19):
But there is another kind of happiness, you dimonic happiness.
You dimonic happiness is not like the thrill and the
joy and all of that that he done happiness is You.
Dimonic happiness is about contentment, purpose, meaning. And so when
you're in the forest, when you're on nature, when you
(23:40):
look at the ocean, when you look at tall mountains,
you feel that deep sense of purpose and meaning that
sense of belonging, and in fact, your brain and your
body know the difference. In one study, he done happiness
was compared to you diaimonic happiness, and your cells know
the difference, and your DNA knows the difference between the two,
(24:02):
and he donnic happiness didn't have the same benefits as
you daimonic happiness. And so really doing things, you know, unplugging,
being out in nature, like you say, touch grass, doing
things that are all inspiring that make you feel a
sense of connection and that feeling of you dimonic happiness, contentment, purpose, meaning,
(24:25):
that is what's so therapeutic, and that's why going out
in nature feels so so good.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I'm adding a new word to my lexicon. It's you
demonic happiness. Me dimonic happiness? Is you dimonic happiness?
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I love it?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Doctor Narukar, thank you so much for sharing your expertise
here with us. On the bright side, we really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Thank you so much, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Guys. Doctor Adit Narukar is an internal medicine physician at
Harvard and a stress, resilience and public health expert. That's
it for today's show. Tomorrow, we've got sisters and best
selling authors Amber Ruffin and Lacey Lamar. They're here on
(25:08):
the bright Side to talk comedy, family, and so much more.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
I'm simone Voice. You can find me at simone Voice
on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
That's ro b A.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Y see you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.
Hosts And Creators
Simone Boyce
Danielle Robay
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