December 12, 2024 • 26 mins
Creator and star of “Suffs” Shaina Taub talks about bringing history to life with her Tony-Award-winning musical about the American Suffrage Movement. Shaina shares her journey to bring “Suffs” to the stage, how she ended up starring as Alice Paul, and her work with Sir Elton John on “The Devil Wears Prada” musical.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey Bessies, Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Today on the bright Side, Shana top, the creator of
the hit Broadway musical Suffs, is here to talk about
how the suffragist movement inspired her to bring history to life,
and of course, why these dazzling stories are more important
now than ever. It's Thursday, December twelfth. I'm Danielle Robe.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I'm Smoane Voice, and this is the bright Side
from Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together
to share women's stories, laugh, learn and brighten your day.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Siman, Today we're bringing Broadway to the bright Side.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Oh that is music to my ears. Can we always
have Broadway on the bright Side please? Shana tab is
our guest today and she wrote the music, lyrics, and
book for the Broadway musical Suffs. So talk about a
triple perhaps even quadruple threat now. Suffs follows the women's
suffrage movement through the ratification of the Nineteenth Amendment in
(01:00):
nineteen twenty and Shana's work earned her not one, but
two Tony Awards this year for Best Original Score and
Best Book of a Musical. She also originated the role
of Alice Paul. What are the leaders of the suffrage
movement in the United.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
States, and even though this musical is rooted in history,
the themes that Shana explores feel even more relevant today
than ever before, especially in the wake of such a
pivotal election. So Shana joins us from New York, where
she's still performing daily in Stuff. So don't be surprised
if you catch a little bit of that iconic traffic
noise in the background.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Shana's tabb Welcome to the bright Side.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Hi, thank you so much for having me, Hi, Hi, Hi.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I was just telling you we're big Stuffs fans over here,
so we're really excited to chat with you about your musical.
It follows the fight for the women's right to vote
in America, and I'm curious how the themes of the
musical resonate with you after coming off such a major election.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
You know, at Stuff's, we had a show on election night,
and we had a show the afternoon after. And the
theater is a place where people come to feel things
together out loud, a place where you're allowed to laugh
and cry in public with others, and I hope we've
been providing a place for people to do that and
(02:16):
it can give us some sense of hope that we're
going to make it to another day. We're going to
keep fighting, We're going to keep marching, We're going to
keep working for the things that we care about, no
matter what comes our way.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
It's also it really hones in on the importance of voting, obviously,
hence the name. Do you feel like the show has
contributed to the conversation around voting?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I hope.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
So we've had such amazing audiences for the last eight
months or however long we've been on Brobably. So far
on Brably, you get to meet people at the stage
door after the show, and I've met so many, especially
multi generational groups, and people have expressed feeling excited about
voting and feeling sort of a sense of joy around
it when they understand and how much went into securitying
(03:02):
that right. I don't know about you, but I didn't
grow up learning it in school, and I wish I
had had. Part of my wanting to adapt it into
a show was wishing I'd had this story as a kid,
because I know how much it might have inspired me
to get involved.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Well, I hear the idea for Stef's germinated from a
book called Jailed for Freedom, by Doris Stevens, who also
becomes a character in your show. And I hear that
you read that book when you were twenty five and
you were surprised that no one had adapted it into
a musical before. So take me into the mind of
Shannon Thabb. You get this book, at what point do
(03:38):
you realize you are the one who is called to
bring this story to the stage.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
Well, yes, the book was brought to me by Rachel Sussman,
who's my good friend and one of our lead producers.
And I stayed up all night reading it that night,
and when I turned the page and I saw there's
a photograph accompanied by Doors's writing of the Silent Sentinel
protests in nineteen seventeen. For those listening who don't know,
that was when American women picketed in a line outside
of the White House, silently holding signs saying how long
(04:07):
was women wait for liberty? And picketing for the vote
and pledging to stand there every day until the amendment
was passed. And this doesn't sound that radical an idea
now that this was the first time American citizens had
stood outside the White House in a protest for an issue,
and seeing that photo you saw like the mighty White
(04:28):
House looming in the background, and just very small, this
row of like eight or nine women with their signs.
It was clearly cold outside, and they had their jackets,
and that image just spoke to me, just the fact
that it was just a few of them and the
mighty halls of power looming behind them, and yet they
stood there and something about that felt so theatrical. I
was like, how is this not an iconic photo of
(04:50):
American history? And it excited me. I was like, Oh,
I think my knowledge about musical theater and my passion
for it, I think could hopefully help bring this to
a new j generation.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Okay, so how much time passes between that moment and
then when the curtain goes up first night of Stelfs.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
I mean that was in May twenty fourteen, and we
opened on Broadway this past April twenty twenty four so
it was a decade all together, so it took a lot.
I mean that first conversation between me and Rachel was
like over coffee, as twenty five year olds with no backing,
no money, no fancy anything. We were just starting our
careers and that kind of made its way into the show.
(05:32):
It was part of how I connected to these characters,
Alice Paul and Lucy Burns sitting in the basement of
an office in Washington, DC, with no funding, no nothing,
no real coalition, yet trying to plan this Women's March
on Washington in a couple months. Obviously, you know, like
trying to pass a constitutional amendment is you could say,
more important and more intense than trying to mount a
(05:52):
Broadway musical. And yet they were both extremely challenging endeavors
with a lot of setbacks. So I think to have
made it all this way, yeah, it took a lot.
It took a lot of time.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
It's amazing that you worked on this musical for ten years.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
That's a long time.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
I'm just so impressed that you had the grit to
endure such a long journey.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
What kept you going.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Really my collaborations, our director, and our lead actors were
with us this entire time. Especially, I have to shout
out Jen Kalela, who plays Carrie chat mccatt and Nicki
m James, who so beautifully portrays Io b Wells. They
were in it through thick and through thin, through up
and through down, through a pandemic, through everything else. And
(06:36):
the fact that these artists I admire up to were
willing to put their faith and support in this project
every step of the way gave me that confidence. Was
really like our group, our sisterhood, stayed strong through all
of those storms, so that when I was feeling doubtful,
which was many times. And that's why I often tell
writers coming up who asked me for advice, I'm like
(06:59):
may friends, with the doubt, It's going to be there.
There's no way to get rid of it. You just
have to learn to tolerate it and not let have
it be strong enough to make you quit.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So not all musicals that our period pieces become breakthrough
shows the way Stef's has. I of course think of
Hamilton too, like both shows brought history to life in
a way that made people feel something, made us all
so engaged and want to watch. And you know, history
is taught in the past tense as a sequence of events,
(07:32):
but I think part of your job as a playwright
is to make us feel the emotion of it all
and not even think of it.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
As a sequence of events.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, how do you even go about transforming historical events
that you're reading? That can be kind of dry sometimes
and yeah, turn it into this emotional journey that feels
alive and relevant for audiences today.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
He makes such a good point. That was my central
challenge this entire decade of work was trying to prioritize
the humanity over the history. Let history be the backdrop.
And one of the hardest parts with the suffrage story
is audiences by and large are not coming in with
any kind of historical shorthand they don't come really knowing
these ones, whereas maybe if you see a story about
the founding fathers or about some other eras, most audiences
(08:17):
are coming in with some knowledge of that. But I
felt this sense of responsibility that I'm introducing audiences to
these characters. So is this constant process of distillation of
what is the least amount of information I can give
an audience so that they can follow the story, but
then go home and learn the rest on Wikipedia? But
how can I get them by the hearts? And it
(08:38):
really was about who are these women when no one
is watching? What is their inner life? Something amazing a
musical can do, specifically musical not another form. Is a
lot of times song can go into the inner thoughts
of the character. The other characters go away and we
are alone, and we get this door into their emotional
lives that sometimes the other characters even get. And that
(09:01):
is this like emotional contract with the audience. So for me,
as passionate I was about the history, put that aside
and think what was Alice Paul thinking about at two
am when she couldn't sleep? What was I to thinking
about at two am? The thing that she couldn't admit
to herself, to her friend, Those things that make an
audience member go oh, I recognize myself in her or
my friend in her. That then you root for them
(09:24):
and it hopefully humanizes them. So for me, as a
constant process, how can I get at the emotional live
lives of the characters that the history books want to
give me?
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Don't go anywhere.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
We have to take a short break, but we'll be
write back with Shana tab And we're back with writer,
composer and performer Shana Tab. I don't know where you
wrote this, but I have this image of you working
(09:56):
in a New York coffee shop, just something very literary.
During this whole process, did you have any unexpected inspiration
for your music or your storytelling?
Speaker 4 (10:06):
There are so many but one that comes to mind.
One of my mentors is the amazing Janine to Story,
who I just think is like a legend titan of
American musical theater. In composing, and she saw reading and
kind of talk to me about this concern I have
about the emotional lives, and she said, why do we
never talk about Alice Paul's decision not to marry or
(10:27):
have children? And I was like, Janine, it's not a
show about that. It's a show about work in a friendship.
Not everything has to be about the relationships and the romance.
And she's like, no, no, no, you don't have to add
a character. I'm not saying she has to have like
a boyfriend or husband and girlfriend or whatever else. But
if I'm not in her head when she's thinking about
those things the way every human woman does, she won't
(10:49):
feel like a real person. To me.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
And that just kind of hit me like a ton
of bricks of Oh yeah, Like I think I've been
denying her a piece of her humanity, which is even
for those but just speaking for myself who are ambitious,
passionate about our work, fiercely independent, not wanting to be
defined by the choice or not to marry or be
a mother. That's a struggle I just described is part
(11:16):
of her commandity as well, and however she felt about it.
So then I wrote this song that's now in the
show that I sing every night as the character called
worth It, where she's questioning, She's like, is the work
worth it? Is denying myself these things worth it? What
are those questions? You know? So that really unlocked a
side of the character that I think I needed to hear.
You know, Alice is in nineteen thirteen having those questions,
(11:37):
and now in twenty twenty four, when I enjoy many
more rights in a lot of ways than she did,
I'm also having those questions right of how can I
bounce my work if I were to become a mother,
how would that work? And so that really like unlocked
a side of her for me.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And what's worth it? That's really powerful.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, it's clear that collaboration is such a huge part
of your process, and I've really enjoyed hearing the esteem
with which you talk about your colleagues that you've worked
on this project with. One of those colleagues is Linn
Manuel Miranda. He called you the future of musical theater
casual compliment from Lynn, and I read that he was
(12:14):
also a resource or a mentor that you leaned on
as you created stuffs. What will you remember most about
that collaboration.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Lynn is so wonderful. He's such a great friend and
just has been so so supportive every step of the way.
I can't thank him enough. He's one of the only
people in the world who understands what it's like to
be inside your own musical and contend with wrestling history
onto the stage. And he's been so generous and awesome.
And he also started in our early reading and gave
(12:44):
me a great note about letting some music do the work,
letting a song really breathe and be a song. I
think in my quest, as we were talking about before,
to like get history in, I could like stuff it
too full and not let a song just like breathe
and have its own moment for the ear to react
(13:08):
and recover. You know, it's about sort of balancing how
much sung dialogue there is versus how many songs there are.
You know, a song that we all recognize, you can
get on board and you hear the hook and there's
some repetition. And he was really helpful and sort of
just highlighting for me, really like let your songs shine.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Not only did you collaborate with Lynn on this project,
Hillary Clinton is a producer for Seffs as well. And
you've mentioned that the evolution of Suff's felt so tied
to Hillary's presidential campaign, which I thought was interesting. And
even in just thinking about how long it took to
bring suffs out of your head and onto the stage,
there were so many historical and political events that took
(13:49):
place in that time, so it makes sense that the
creative process would be a bit fluid. So what was
it exactly about her campaign that shaped the development of Seffs.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Well, My first writer's andcy to work on this was
late October through late November twenty sixteen, and the weeks
leading up to the election fanus I was like, oh,
you know, we're on this brink of this historic moment
for a woman in office, and then of course when
that didn't come to pass, it sort of felt like
it underscored my sense of urgency for wanting to tell
this story. And of course here we are now eight
(14:20):
years later in that same moment. But what's inspired me
so much about Secretary Clinton and having the privilege and
honor getting to know her is she still speaks out
for what she believed. Her head is held high and
her arms are outstretched, and she is resilient. And that resilience,
to me is inspiring. And part of what I'm hoping
Stuffs can can offer is that we can get knocked down,
(14:42):
but we will still continue. It can sound like a cliche,
but it's because it's true.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
I think what you said is so resonant. So you
play the role of Alice Paul When you wrote the show,
did you have the intention of playing her?
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Always knew I wanted to be in it because I'm
a performer. I pretty much always perform in my work,
and early on, I thought I would be the character
of Doris Stevens, who wrote the book that you mentioned
that originally inspired me because she's sort of I sort
of think of her as like the intern of the movement.
She's like the young one and she's the writer and
she documents it. And my group of girlfriends, I've often
been like the youngest one, and I just sort of
(15:21):
idolized all of my closest friends, So that felt like
it it was my spot, But then it turned out
as I wrote, Alice was the hardest nut to crack,
just emotionally. As I talked about before, it was hard
to figure her out, and so I kind of realized, like,
I think the only way I'm going to really truly
figure her out is if I staid that to your
shoes myself.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Well, in thinking about the idea of not leaving breadcrumbs.
When I try and learn about the suffrage movement, there's
some conflicting stories, and for as much as there is written,
there's actually not that much written compared to other moments
in history. Alice Paul was not really a househole name.
She was the leader of the National Women's Party, and
(16:03):
her impact was really profound.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
I'm curious how.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
You chose her and some of these other figures that
you really wanted to ground in the action of the musical.
How did you choose which women you were going to highlight.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Yeah, it was hard because there's so much out there
that hasn't been told, and I feel so passionate about
all of it, and this whole ten years has been
making my peace with the fact that it's just a
two and a half hour musical and I can't get everything.
I had a quote on the front page of my
scrip from Susan B.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Anthony.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
That kind of unlocked the show dramatically for me. And
the quote was there never was a young woman yet
who did not think if only she had management of
the work from the start, the cause would have been
carried long ago. I felt just so when I was young,
and there was something to me and that of her
of being like every generation has that, you know, every
(16:55):
young ambitious one comes along and thinks she's going to
fix it all. And I used to feel that way
when I was young, and I was like, oh, yes, okay,
what if I make the conflict in this show intergenerational
between the women, because I think early on I was like,
I think the trap of this dramatically as a writer
might be to be like, okay, if the seffs or
the protagonist, and the antagonist is like the president or
(17:18):
the press or the men. And I did not want
the show to be a pat liberal exercise, and it
appealed to me to make the conflict in the show
almost like a cautionary tale against progressive inviting, which you know,
I'll let's hopefully speak for itself. But so it excited
me to think of Okay, what if my central dramatic
conflict is between like a younger more radical stuff and
(17:40):
an older more moderate stuff, and how they share a
goal but differ on how to achieve the goal. And
Alice Paul and Carrie Chapman Katt really perfectly exemplify the
idea of that thesis to me. So once I kind
of located that conflict in those two, I built around
it from there.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
We're taking a quick break. We'll be back with more
from Shana Tobb. Stay with us.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
We're back with more of our conversation with the Tony
Award winning Shana Tobb. Another one of the activists that's
featured in Seffs is Ida b Wells, who I think,
for me, for anybody who's a journalist, particularly women female journalist,
Ida b Wells is a huge personal hero of mine
and Ida's great granddaughter Michelle Duster, who is a historian
(18:32):
and a steward of her ancestors legacy. She came to
see Suffs. Tell me about this moment. Did you get
to meet her, spend time with her? What was that conversation?
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Like? It was so epic when Michelle Duster came, we
were all so excited she was there backstage. We were like,
oh my god, Oh my god, her great granddaughter's here,
because we all have such Admirationiper, as you said, how
she's been a steward of her legacy and an author
and activist in her own right, and you know, felt
some nerves. And then she came back to stage after
and she was wearing her suffrage and she just embraced us,
(19:02):
and we had this beautiful conversation and she embraced Nicki
and seemed to be so excited about what we were doing,
which just meant the world. I mean, that's in the show.
We have these lyrics of I want my great granddaughter
to know I was here, and she was, you know,
one of the only living links to these women. A
lot of these women, to our conversation earlier, didn't have kids.
(19:22):
Alice Paul didn't have kids, Doris Stevens didn't have kids.
Lucy Burns, Ida and Mary Church Cheryl, who is another
incredible suffraget who we've portrayed in the show, both had
children and were balancing not only in the movement but
motherhood and marriage. And so then to have Michelle there
as an actual descendant and to get to kind of
commune with her was by far. I mean, We've had
(19:45):
a lot of special moments, and it was right up
there as the most special.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Shana, I know you've got the Tony Awards now, I
know you're busier onto other projects. Do you ever stop
to think, like, we did it, you did it. That
is the fact that Michelle Duster came to see the
show and that you wrote that lyric into the show.
Like what a full circle moment, Like you did it?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Did these women justice?
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Oh man? I mean one of my favorite feelings is
just like hard work paying off and just all I
feel so proud of the way as a group, truly,
and it's not like I was a part of it,
and my collaborators and team members like just kept going
and our last production we ended up losing a lot
of the performances to COVID, just so many stepbacks, and
(20:35):
that we've gotten to have this beautiful year on Broadway
with so many special moments and special guests coming to
see us, and the audiences and the Tony words. I
mean that it has been so so so gratifying. Yeah,
and will help me to sort of return to the
piano the next time to know that like it can
it can pay off eventually.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, you made history and that's no small thing.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
And you also have this most impressive range because after
creating stuffs, you are also collaborating with Sir Elton John
on the Devilwares Product musical which is playing in London
right now. So I read that Sir Elton wrote the music,
you wrote the lyrics. I have so many questions about
this process, especially when you're creating the lyrics from such
(21:24):
a beloved script.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
What is the formula for that?
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Well, one of the many amazing things about Elton is
he has pretty much always in his fifty plus your career,
worked with the lyrics first and worked with lyricists. And
so for me, as a lyricist and composer, I'm usually
writing both and sometimes at the same time. And so
it was a really fun challenge to be like, Okay,
you just have to write lyrics on lyric sheet and
(21:48):
not touch the piano at all, and think about how
can I set this lyric up on the page in
a way that it's going I'm going to put it
in front of this rock legend that hopefully will spring
off the page for him.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
And then was there one Devilwaar's protest scene that you
were most excited to see come to life in musical form.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Yeah, I mean there's so many, but one, I think
the thing that I'm most passionate about and proud of
that album that I wrote. I knew I wanted to
write a song from the perspective of Nigel, the Stanley
Tucci character, So we wrote this song called Scene that's
all about how like the fashion magazine made him feel
seen as a kid, and especially as a young gay kid,
(22:28):
and how he wants to pass that on to another
young queer child who might pick up a fashion magazine
and feel represented. And there was something because for me
it was tough for a while to connect to the
fashion world is not so much my world. But I
was like, oh, when I heard that in the movie,
I was like, that's how I felt about cast albums
growing up, a Broadway cast album. So I was trying
(22:50):
to find sort of like a deeper emotional core there,
and I'm really glad that we ended up fitting out
the show.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
You mentioned that it would be an absolute dream for
SETH to be formed in schools and local theaters across
the country, and with its focus on powerful and significant
figures in women's history. Curious what impact you hope this
story could have on young women as they begin to
find their voices politically.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Yeah, it's always been my dream of stuffs that kids
will grow up doing it in high schools, because that's
how I kind of found myself and found my voice
as a kid. I hope that a new generation grows
up playing Alice and Lucy and Ida, and that in
doing so sort of step into their power and their confidence.
And my hope was to contribute some roles to the
canon that are complicated that both allow a girl to
(23:40):
play her confidence and her power, but also her doubts
and her fears and her mistakes and her hubris and
everything in between, and just asking the questions of how
does change get made and who gets to decide, and
that they can their understanding of democracy and our participation
in it could even be somewhat formed by the show.
That could be my greatest home.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, Shana, you're talking to two theater kids. Yes, so
we know exactly what you're talking about. And I actually
had to play one of the men and guys and
dolls because there wasn't enough female roles. Yeah, never really
enough female roles and definitely not enough complicated female roles.
So I really hope this is performed in theaters and
(24:23):
schools across the country too.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Yeah, can please please get Stuffs instead of Princess and the.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
P Oh my gosh No. I'm so excited for it
to be done in schools. And even though we had
to cast all women and non binary folks here in
on Broadway, I hope that all genders perform, and I
would really be excited for boys to be in Stuffs too,
and that I included this character. Dudley Malone, who was
in the Wilson administration, ultimately very publicly quit the Wilson
(24:48):
administration become a pro bono lawyer for the Stuffs because
it was important to me to show like we need
good men in this fight. Yes do, and they're important
as well.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Well.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Said, thank you so much for sharing your time with.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Thank you so much. It's so being so great to
talk to you. Thanks for everything you do to champion
women's stories.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
It's awesome.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Shana.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Shana Tobb is the creator of Suff's It's on Broadway
through January fifth, and if you happen to be in London,
her collaboration with Elton John on The Devilwar's produc Musical
is now open in the West End.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
That's it for today's show.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Tomorrow, we're popping off with the mother and son duo
co hosts of the podcast.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Hold On I'm Calling My Mom, Paul and Barb Roysden.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram
and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok Oh, and
feel free to tag us at Simone Boyce and at
Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.
Hey Bessies, Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Today on the bright Side, Shana top, the creator of
the hit Broadway musical Suffs, is here to talk about
how the suffragist movement inspired her to bring history to life,
and of course, why these dazzling stories are more important
now than ever. It's Thursday, December twelfth. I'm Danielle Robe.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I'm Smoane Voice, and this is the bright Side
from Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together
to share women's stories, laugh, learn and brighten your day.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Siman, Today we're bringing Broadway to the bright Side.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Oh that is music to my ears. Can we always
have Broadway on the bright Side please? Shana tab is
our guest today and she wrote the music, lyrics, and
book for the Broadway musical Suffs. So talk about a
triple perhaps even quadruple threat now. Suffs follows the women's
suffrage movement through the ratification of the Nineteenth Amendment in
(01:00):
nineteen twenty and Shana's work earned her not one, but
two Tony Awards this year for Best Original Score and
Best Book of a Musical. She also originated the role
of Alice Paul. What are the leaders of the suffrage
movement in the United.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
States, and even though this musical is rooted in history,
the themes that Shana explores feel even more relevant today
than ever before, especially in the wake of such a
pivotal election. So Shana joins us from New York, where
she's still performing daily in Stuff. So don't be surprised
if you catch a little bit of that iconic traffic
noise in the background.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Shana's tabb Welcome to the bright Side.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Hi, thank you so much for having me, Hi, Hi, Hi.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I was just telling you we're big Stuffs fans over here,
so we're really excited to chat with you about your musical.
It follows the fight for the women's right to vote
in America, and I'm curious how the themes of the
musical resonate with you after coming off such a major election.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
You know, at Stuff's, we had a show on election night,
and we had a show the afternoon after. And the
theater is a place where people come to feel things
together out loud, a place where you're allowed to laugh
and cry in public with others, and I hope we've
been providing a place for people to do that and
(02:16):
it can give us some sense of hope that we're
going to make it to another day. We're going to
keep fighting, We're going to keep marching, We're going to
keep working for the things that we care about, no
matter what comes our way.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
It's also it really hones in on the importance of voting, obviously,
hence the name. Do you feel like the show has
contributed to the conversation around voting?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I hope.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
So we've had such amazing audiences for the last eight
months or however long we've been on Brobably. So far
on Brably, you get to meet people at the stage
door after the show, and I've met so many, especially
multi generational groups, and people have expressed feeling excited about
voting and feeling sort of a sense of joy around
it when they understand and how much went into securitying
(03:02):
that right. I don't know about you, but I didn't
grow up learning it in school, and I wish I
had had. Part of my wanting to adapt it into
a show was wishing I'd had this story as a kid,
because I know how much it might have inspired me
to get involved.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Well, I hear the idea for Stef's germinated from a
book called Jailed for Freedom, by Doris Stevens, who also
becomes a character in your show. And I hear that
you read that book when you were twenty five and
you were surprised that no one had adapted it into
a musical before. So take me into the mind of
Shannon Thabb. You get this book, at what point do
(03:38):
you realize you are the one who is called to
bring this story to the stage.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
Well, yes, the book was brought to me by Rachel Sussman,
who's my good friend and one of our lead producers.
And I stayed up all night reading it that night,
and when I turned the page and I saw there's
a photograph accompanied by Doors's writing of the Silent Sentinel
protests in nineteen seventeen. For those listening who don't know,
that was when American women picketed in a line outside
of the White House, silently holding signs saying how long
(04:07):
was women wait for liberty? And picketing for the vote
and pledging to stand there every day until the amendment
was passed. And this doesn't sound that radical an idea
now that this was the first time American citizens had
stood outside the White House in a protest for an issue,
and seeing that photo you saw like the mighty White
(04:28):
House looming in the background, and just very small, this
row of like eight or nine women with their signs.
It was clearly cold outside, and they had their jackets,
and that image just spoke to me, just the fact
that it was just a few of them and the
mighty halls of power looming behind them, and yet they
stood there and something about that felt so theatrical. I
was like, how is this not an iconic photo of
(04:50):
American history? And it excited me. I was like, Oh,
I think my knowledge about musical theater and my passion
for it, I think could hopefully help bring this to
a new j generation.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Okay, so how much time passes between that moment and
then when the curtain goes up first night of Stelfs.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
I mean that was in May twenty fourteen, and we
opened on Broadway this past April twenty twenty four so
it was a decade all together, so it took a lot.
I mean that first conversation between me and Rachel was
like over coffee, as twenty five year olds with no backing,
no money, no fancy anything. We were just starting our
careers and that kind of made its way into the show.
(05:32):
It was part of how I connected to these characters,
Alice Paul and Lucy Burns sitting in the basement of
an office in Washington, DC, with no funding, no nothing,
no real coalition, yet trying to plan this Women's March
on Washington in a couple months. Obviously, you know, like
trying to pass a constitutional amendment is you could say,
more important and more intense than trying to mount a
(05:52):
Broadway musical. And yet they were both extremely challenging endeavors
with a lot of setbacks. So I think to have
made it all this way, yeah, it took a lot.
It took a lot of time.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
It's amazing that you worked on this musical for ten years.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
That's a long time.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
I'm just so impressed that you had the grit to
endure such a long journey.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
What kept you going.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Really my collaborations, our director, and our lead actors were
with us this entire time. Especially, I have to shout
out Jen Kalela, who plays Carrie chat mccatt and Nicki
m James, who so beautifully portrays Io b Wells. They
were in it through thick and through thin, through up
and through down, through a pandemic, through everything else. And
(06:36):
the fact that these artists I admire up to were
willing to put their faith and support in this project
every step of the way gave me that confidence. Was
really like our group, our sisterhood, stayed strong through all
of those storms, so that when I was feeling doubtful,
which was many times. And that's why I often tell
writers coming up who asked me for advice, I'm like
(06:59):
may friends, with the doubt, It's going to be there.
There's no way to get rid of it. You just
have to learn to tolerate it and not let have
it be strong enough to make you quit.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So not all musicals that our period pieces become breakthrough
shows the way Stef's has. I of course think of
Hamilton too, like both shows brought history to life in
a way that made people feel something, made us all
so engaged and want to watch. And you know, history
is taught in the past tense as a sequence of events,
(07:32):
but I think part of your job as a playwright
is to make us feel the emotion of it all
and not even think of it.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
As a sequence of events.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, how do you even go about transforming historical events
that you're reading? That can be kind of dry sometimes
and yeah, turn it into this emotional journey that feels
alive and relevant for audiences today.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
He makes such a good point. That was my central
challenge this entire decade of work was trying to prioritize
the humanity over the history. Let history be the backdrop.
And one of the hardest parts with the suffrage story
is audiences by and large are not coming in with
any kind of historical shorthand they don't come really knowing
these ones, whereas maybe if you see a story about
the founding fathers or about some other eras, most audiences
(08:17):
are coming in with some knowledge of that. But I
felt this sense of responsibility that I'm introducing audiences to
these characters. So is this constant process of distillation of
what is the least amount of information I can give
an audience so that they can follow the story, but
then go home and learn the rest on Wikipedia? But
how can I get them by the hearts? And it
(08:38):
really was about who are these women when no one
is watching? What is their inner life? Something amazing a
musical can do, specifically musical not another form. Is a
lot of times song can go into the inner thoughts
of the character. The other characters go away and we
are alone, and we get this door into their emotional
lives that sometimes the other characters even get. And that
(09:01):
is this like emotional contract with the audience. So for me,
as passionate I was about the history, put that aside
and think what was Alice Paul thinking about at two
am when she couldn't sleep? What was I to thinking
about at two am? The thing that she couldn't admit
to herself, to her friend, Those things that make an
audience member go oh, I recognize myself in her or
my friend in her. That then you root for them
(09:24):
and it hopefully humanizes them. So for me, as a
constant process, how can I get at the emotional live
lives of the characters that the history books want to
give me?
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Don't go anywhere.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
We have to take a short break, but we'll be
write back with Shana tab And we're back with writer,
composer and performer Shana Tab. I don't know where you
wrote this, but I have this image of you working
(09:56):
in a New York coffee shop, just something very literary.
During this whole process, did you have any unexpected inspiration
for your music or your storytelling?
Speaker 4 (10:06):
There are so many but one that comes to mind.
One of my mentors is the amazing Janine to Story,
who I just think is like a legend titan of
American musical theater. In composing, and she saw reading and
kind of talk to me about this concern I have
about the emotional lives, and she said, why do we
never talk about Alice Paul's decision not to marry or
(10:27):
have children? And I was like, Janine, it's not a
show about that. It's a show about work in a friendship.
Not everything has to be about the relationships and the romance.
And she's like, no, no, no, you don't have to add
a character. I'm not saying she has to have like
a boyfriend or husband and girlfriend or whatever else. But
if I'm not in her head when she's thinking about
those things the way every human woman does, she won't
(10:49):
feel like a real person. To me.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
And that just kind of hit me like a ton
of bricks of Oh yeah, Like I think I've been
denying her a piece of her humanity, which is even
for those but just speaking for myself who are ambitious,
passionate about our work, fiercely independent, not wanting to be
defined by the choice or not to marry or be
a mother. That's a struggle I just described is part
(11:16):
of her commandity as well, and however she felt about it.
So then I wrote this song that's now in the
show that I sing every night as the character called
worth It, where she's questioning, She's like, is the work
worth it? Is denying myself these things worth it? What
are those questions? You know? So that really unlocked a
side of the character that I think I needed to hear.
You know, Alice is in nineteen thirteen having those questions,
(11:37):
and now in twenty twenty four, when I enjoy many
more rights in a lot of ways than she did,
I'm also having those questions right of how can I
bounce my work if I were to become a mother,
how would that work? And so that really like unlocked
a side of her for me.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And what's worth it? That's really powerful.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, it's clear that collaboration is such a huge part
of your process, and I've really enjoyed hearing the esteem
with which you talk about your colleagues that you've worked
on this project with. One of those colleagues is Linn
Manuel Miranda. He called you the future of musical theater
casual compliment from Lynn, and I read that he was
(12:14):
also a resource or a mentor that you leaned on
as you created stuffs. What will you remember most about
that collaboration.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Lynn is so wonderful. He's such a great friend and
just has been so so supportive every step of the way.
I can't thank him enough. He's one of the only
people in the world who understands what it's like to
be inside your own musical and contend with wrestling history
onto the stage. And he's been so generous and awesome.
And he also started in our early reading and gave
(12:44):
me a great note about letting some music do the work,
letting a song really breathe and be a song. I
think in my quest, as we were talking about before,
to like get history in, I could like stuff it
too full and not let a song just like breathe
and have its own moment for the ear to react
(13:08):
and recover. You know, it's about sort of balancing how
much sung dialogue there is versus how many songs there are.
You know, a song that we all recognize, you can
get on board and you hear the hook and there's
some repetition. And he was really helpful and sort of
just highlighting for me, really like let your songs shine.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Not only did you collaborate with Lynn on this project,
Hillary Clinton is a producer for Seffs as well. And
you've mentioned that the evolution of Suff's felt so tied
to Hillary's presidential campaign, which I thought was interesting. And
even in just thinking about how long it took to
bring suffs out of your head and onto the stage,
there were so many historical and political events that took
(13:49):
place in that time, so it makes sense that the
creative process would be a bit fluid. So what was
it exactly about her campaign that shaped the development of Seffs.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Well, My first writer's andcy to work on this was
late October through late November twenty sixteen, and the weeks
leading up to the election fanus I was like, oh,
you know, we're on this brink of this historic moment
for a woman in office, and then of course when
that didn't come to pass, it sort of felt like
it underscored my sense of urgency for wanting to tell
this story. And of course here we are now eight
(14:20):
years later in that same moment. But what's inspired me
so much about Secretary Clinton and having the privilege and
honor getting to know her is she still speaks out
for what she believed. Her head is held high and
her arms are outstretched, and she is resilient. And that resilience,
to me is inspiring. And part of what I'm hoping
Stuffs can can offer is that we can get knocked down,
(14:42):
but we will still continue. It can sound like a cliche,
but it's because it's true.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
I think what you said is so resonant. So you
play the role of Alice Paul When you wrote the show,
did you have the intention of playing her?
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Always knew I wanted to be in it because I'm
a performer. I pretty much always perform in my work,
and early on, I thought I would be the character
of Doris Stevens, who wrote the book that you mentioned
that originally inspired me because she's sort of I sort
of think of her as like the intern of the movement.
She's like the young one and she's the writer and
she documents it. And my group of girlfriends, I've often
been like the youngest one, and I just sort of
(15:21):
idolized all of my closest friends, So that felt like
it it was my spot, But then it turned out
as I wrote, Alice was the hardest nut to crack,
just emotionally. As I talked about before, it was hard
to figure her out, and so I kind of realized, like,
I think the only way I'm going to really truly
figure her out is if I staid that to your
shoes myself.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Well, in thinking about the idea of not leaving breadcrumbs.
When I try and learn about the suffrage movement, there's
some conflicting stories, and for as much as there is written,
there's actually not that much written compared to other moments
in history. Alice Paul was not really a househole name.
She was the leader of the National Women's Party, and
(16:03):
her impact was really profound.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
I'm curious how.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
You chose her and some of these other figures that
you really wanted to ground in the action of the musical.
How did you choose which women you were going to highlight.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Yeah, it was hard because there's so much out there
that hasn't been told, and I feel so passionate about
all of it, and this whole ten years has been
making my peace with the fact that it's just a
two and a half hour musical and I can't get everything.
I had a quote on the front page of my
scrip from Susan B.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Anthony.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
That kind of unlocked the show dramatically for me. And
the quote was there never was a young woman yet
who did not think if only she had management of
the work from the start, the cause would have been
carried long ago. I felt just so when I was young,
and there was something to me and that of her
of being like every generation has that, you know, every
(16:55):
young ambitious one comes along and thinks she's going to
fix it all. And I used to feel that way
when I was young, and I was like, oh, yes, okay,
what if I make the conflict in this show intergenerational
between the women, because I think early on I was like,
I think the trap of this dramatically as a writer
might be to be like, okay, if the seffs or
the protagonist, and the antagonist is like the president or
(17:18):
the press or the men. And I did not want
the show to be a pat liberal exercise, and it
appealed to me to make the conflict in the show
almost like a cautionary tale against progressive inviting, which you know,
I'll let's hopefully speak for itself. But so it excited
me to think of Okay, what if my central dramatic
conflict is between like a younger more radical stuff and
(17:40):
an older more moderate stuff, and how they share a
goal but differ on how to achieve the goal. And
Alice Paul and Carrie Chapman Katt really perfectly exemplify the
idea of that thesis to me. So once I kind
of located that conflict in those two, I built around
it from there.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
We're taking a quick break. We'll be back with more
from Shana Tobb. Stay with us.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
We're back with more of our conversation with the Tony
Award winning Shana Tobb. Another one of the activists that's
featured in Seffs is Ida b Wells, who I think,
for me, for anybody who's a journalist, particularly women female journalist,
Ida b Wells is a huge personal hero of mine
and Ida's great granddaughter Michelle Duster, who is a historian
(18:32):
and a steward of her ancestors legacy. She came to
see Suffs. Tell me about this moment. Did you get
to meet her, spend time with her? What was that conversation?
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Like? It was so epic when Michelle Duster came, we
were all so excited she was there backstage. We were like,
oh my god, Oh my god, her great granddaughter's here,
because we all have such Admirationiper, as you said, how
she's been a steward of her legacy and an author
and activist in her own right, and you know, felt
some nerves. And then she came back to stage after
and she was wearing her suffrage and she just embraced us,
(19:02):
and we had this beautiful conversation and she embraced Nicki
and seemed to be so excited about what we were doing,
which just meant the world. I mean, that's in the show.
We have these lyrics of I want my great granddaughter
to know I was here, and she was, you know,
one of the only living links to these women. A
lot of these women, to our conversation earlier, didn't have kids.
(19:22):
Alice Paul didn't have kids, Doris Stevens didn't have kids.
Lucy Burns, Ida and Mary Church Cheryl, who is another
incredible suffraget who we've portrayed in the show, both had
children and were balancing not only in the movement but
motherhood and marriage. And so then to have Michelle there
as an actual descendant and to get to kind of
commune with her was by far. I mean, We've had
(19:45):
a lot of special moments, and it was right up
there as the most special.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Shana, I know you've got the Tony Awards now, I
know you're busier onto other projects. Do you ever stop
to think, like, we did it, you did it. That
is the fact that Michelle Duster came to see the
show and that you wrote that lyric into the show.
Like what a full circle moment, Like you did it?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Did these women justice?
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Oh man? I mean one of my favorite feelings is
just like hard work paying off and just all I
feel so proud of the way as a group, truly,
and it's not like I was a part of it,
and my collaborators and team members like just kept going
and our last production we ended up losing a lot
of the performances to COVID, just so many stepbacks, and
(20:35):
that we've gotten to have this beautiful year on Broadway
with so many special moments and special guests coming to
see us, and the audiences and the Tony words. I
mean that it has been so so so gratifying. Yeah,
and will help me to sort of return to the
piano the next time to know that like it can
it can pay off eventually.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, you made history and that's no small thing.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
And you also have this most impressive range because after
creating stuffs, you are also collaborating with Sir Elton John
on the Devilwares Product musical which is playing in London
right now. So I read that Sir Elton wrote the music,
you wrote the lyrics. I have so many questions about
this process, especially when you're creating the lyrics from such
(21:24):
a beloved script.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
What is the formula for that?
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Well, one of the many amazing things about Elton is
he has pretty much always in his fifty plus your career,
worked with the lyrics first and worked with lyricists. And
so for me, as a lyricist and composer, I'm usually
writing both and sometimes at the same time. And so
it was a really fun challenge to be like, Okay,
you just have to write lyrics on lyric sheet and
(21:48):
not touch the piano at all, and think about how
can I set this lyric up on the page in
a way that it's going I'm going to put it
in front of this rock legend that hopefully will spring
off the page for him.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
And then was there one Devilwaar's protest scene that you
were most excited to see come to life in musical form.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Yeah, I mean there's so many, but one, I think
the thing that I'm most passionate about and proud of
that album that I wrote. I knew I wanted to
write a song from the perspective of Nigel, the Stanley
Tucci character, So we wrote this song called Scene that's
all about how like the fashion magazine made him feel
seen as a kid, and especially as a young gay kid,
(22:28):
and how he wants to pass that on to another
young queer child who might pick up a fashion magazine
and feel represented. And there was something because for me
it was tough for a while to connect to the
fashion world is not so much my world. But I
was like, oh, when I heard that in the movie,
I was like, that's how I felt about cast albums
growing up, a Broadway cast album. So I was trying
(22:50):
to find sort of like a deeper emotional core there,
and I'm really glad that we ended up fitting out
the show.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
You mentioned that it would be an absolute dream for
SETH to be formed in schools and local theaters across
the country, and with its focus on powerful and significant
figures in women's history. Curious what impact you hope this
story could have on young women as they begin to
find their voices politically.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Yeah, it's always been my dream of stuffs that kids
will grow up doing it in high schools, because that's
how I kind of found myself and found my voice
as a kid. I hope that a new generation grows
up playing Alice and Lucy and Ida, and that in
doing so sort of step into their power and their confidence.
And my hope was to contribute some roles to the
canon that are complicated that both allow a girl to
(23:40):
play her confidence and her power, but also her doubts
and her fears and her mistakes and her hubris and
everything in between, and just asking the questions of how
does change get made and who gets to decide, and
that they can their understanding of democracy and our participation
in it could even be somewhat formed by the show.
That could be my greatest home.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, Shana, you're talking to two theater kids. Yes, so
we know exactly what you're talking about. And I actually
had to play one of the men and guys and
dolls because there wasn't enough female roles. Yeah, never really
enough female roles and definitely not enough complicated female roles.
So I really hope this is performed in theaters and
(24:23):
schools across the country too.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Yeah, can please please get Stuffs instead of Princess and the.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
P Oh my gosh No. I'm so excited for it
to be done in schools. And even though we had
to cast all women and non binary folks here in
on Broadway, I hope that all genders perform, and I
would really be excited for boys to be in Stuffs too,
and that I included this character. Dudley Malone, who was
in the Wilson administration, ultimately very publicly quit the Wilson
(24:48):
administration become a pro bono lawyer for the Stuffs because
it was important to me to show like we need
good men in this fight. Yes do, and they're important
as well.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Well.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Said, thank you so much for sharing your time with.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Thank you so much. It's so being so great to
talk to you. Thanks for everything you do to champion
women's stories.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
It's awesome.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Shana.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Shana Tobb is the creator of Suff's It's on Broadway
through January fifth, and if you happen to be in London,
her collaboration with Elton John on The Devilwar's produc Musical
is now open in the West End.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
That's it for today's show.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Tomorrow, we're popping off with the mother and son duo
co hosts of the podcast.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Hold On I'm Calling My Mom, Paul and Barb Roysden.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram
and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok Oh, and
feel free to tag us at Simone Boyce and at
Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.
Hosts And Creators
Simone Boyce
Danielle Robay
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!