February 26, 2025 • 33 mins
Dr. Nicole Pensak is on a mission to rebrand the mommy brain. As a clinical psychologist, author of “RATTLED: How To Calm New Mom Anxiety With The Power Of The Postpartum Brain,” and mother of two, Dr. Pensak knows how difficult the postpartum period can be. She joins Danielle and Simone to dive into the profound changes that occur during matrescence, and how to leverage them to your advantage.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today, on the bright side, we're
unlocking the secret superpowers of the mommy brain. You've heard
about the brain fog or over stimulation, but clinical psychologist
doctor Nicole Pensac is here to tell us why we
should be celebrating the cognitive benefits of the postpartum brain.
It's Wednesday, February twenty six. I'm Simone Boyce.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright side from
Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Okay, Danielle, you know how much I love cool vocabulary.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Right of course, I have a whole list of your
vocab written down in my notes.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Fad verdant comes to mind.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Verdant is a good one. I have a new favorite.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Word, Okay, give it to me.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And this word is so important because it's often hard
to describe just how vast and transformative the physical and
physiological changes are that come with motherhood. So there is
the term called matrescence, and it literally means the physiological
changes that happen in our brain, happened in our bodies everything,
(01:08):
and encapsulates this huge life shift into motherhood goodness. And
that's exactly what doctor Nicole Pensack talks about in her book,
it's called Rattled, and honestly, it is one of these
books that I'm keeping in my arsenal whenever I have
a friend who is about to give birth, because I
just think it's essential reading for anyone who's about to
(01:28):
enter into that life stage.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
And doctor Nicole Pensick is a clinical psychologist, and she's
someone who's both studied the postpartum experience and gone through
it herself. She's a mom. And you went through at
some moment. What was that period of time post earth
like for you? Well, for me, it varied so much
between the two kids. I think the first time I
(01:51):
went through postpartum, I was filled with this like euphoria
and bliss and I really just wanted to soak up
every moment. I think the second time, and the research
reflects this, postpartum hit me a lot harder and I
really wasn't prepared for that. I had heard about postpartum,
(02:13):
but it's almost it's so hard to recognize it in
yourself because you kind of you minimize your own experience
and you're like.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Oh, no, this wouldn't happen to me. Of course it
would happen to someone else, but this isn't. There's no
way this is actually happening to me, And it's actually
taken me years of reflection to look back and realize, Yeah,
I think that was my experience. I think I was
dealing with postpartum depression.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
What were you feeling?
Speaker 1 (02:38):
There is a heightened sense of depression that I experienced
in the first two weeks after giving birth to my
second child, so much so that I called a suicide
hotline because I didn't know who to talk to. I
was in a time of crisis and I just needed
to speak to a mental health professional immediately. So that's
(03:01):
like the extreme side of it. That extreme crisis situation
eventually faded away, and I think what it evolved into
was this very low grade postpartum depression. And so when
I say that, I it was hard for me to
recognize it in myself. I think I wasn't ready to
(03:23):
accept that. Postpartum depression can manifest in a lot of
different ways. You know, it can be those extreme feelings
of self harm, or it can be this kind of latent,
insidious depression that lingers.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I'm so sorry to hear that. That's that's incredible crisis, you.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Know, I think the conversation around postpartum depression has really
evolved and expanded in recent years, and I'm happy that
we are at a place where we feel like we
can talk about these things. But it's so complicated and layered.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yes, there are the moments of crisis, which I experienced
at times in my own journey, but there's also this
other side of the postpartum brain that I think is
worthy of celebration, Like my capacity for thought, my capacity
(04:22):
for tasks expanded in miraculous ways when I became a parent,
and those are things that I still take with me
and carry with me into my life outside of my home.
And that's what doctor Niki Pensac's book Rattled is all about.
I mean, she's all about rebranding the mommy brain and
reminding us that there are so many cognitive benefits to
(04:45):
celebrate here.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Today's episode is definitely one you'll want to share with
a mother in your life, but it's not limited to
biological mothers. I think it's great for caregivers LGBTQ parents.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
A lot of people can reap the benefits of this episode.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Go ahead and bring her in, doctor Nicki Panzac. Welcome
to the bright Side.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
Thanks for having me welcome.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
This is not the first time that we've met you.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
We got to meet you at Shinaway last year, and
I really loved connecting with you.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
You had such a bright spirit.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
It was so fun to be there and be at
your live recording and participate. I mean it was just
fantastic and the whole event was just amazing.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
So so inspiring, right, and like I felt so hyped up.
I did.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Yeah, I did as well, and just connected with so
many fabulous women like you two, and just excited to
be here.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Well, you gave us both a copy of your book
at Shinawa. I have it right here. It's called Rattled,
How to Calm New mom Anxiety with the Power of
the Postpartum Brain. And I read the book and I
just really appreciated the positive spin, like the rebrand of
the postpartum brain, because we've been we've been told how
negative it is and oh, you got to prepare for
how much your brain is going to change in such
(05:53):
a negative way. But you brought so much positivity to it.
And we're going to get into that, but first, let's
talk about your background a little bit. So, Nikki, you're
a clinical psychologist who specializes in treating postpartum. You were
trained at Yale and Harvard certified and perinatal mental health.
So your resume says that you should have been one
hundred percent prepared for everything that comes with motherhood. But
(06:15):
the reality is so much different, right, Like what surprised
you the most about that transition into motherhood that you
could have never prepared for?
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Oh? I mean so many things, but I think my
story really began, you know, as all great stories begin,
on the floor crying in my closet, and I was
It was a real, you know, doctor becomes patient moment
where I was diagnosing myself in real time and calling
my doctor in tears, telling my doctor, I'm ready for
(06:45):
I need postpartum treatment. And that was just an incredibly
humbling moment for me where I felt like, if I
have all the resources at my fingertips, you know what's
going on out there. You know, I wasn't immune, and
so I got treatment very quickly because I did what
I instruct my patients to do, right. I set up
(07:06):
my proactive postpart of mental health care team and they
were ready to go so that I was able to
get treated very quickly. And then I went from really
rock bottom to thriving in a short period of time,
And as an academic researcher, I went back to the science.
I really wanted to understand how did I go from
rock bottom to this place of feeling better than ever
motivated in the world's worst circumstances. So COVID was going
(07:29):
on at the time as well, and I really uncovered
a story that's not being told but that everyone needs
to hear.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, we're going to get more into your personal story
in a little bit, but I want to talk about
what's going on in our brains during this critical time,
because you write that the peripartum phase and transition to
motherhood is the single greatest amount of neurobiological change a
mother can go through in the shortest period of time.
That's so huge. So what's happening to our brains during
(07:59):
this period and how does that affect us?
Speaker 4 (08:01):
So when a woman becomes a mother, your brain, your body,
your relationships, your psyche, everything changes in a short amount
of time. Your brain basically creates new neural networks, fine tunes,
and primes itself for taking care of a baby. And
so what mothers don't realize is that it's a complete
(08:24):
overhaul of your brain and things are running more efficiently,
but it sort of takes time to get there. So
Yale has now named this a neurocognitive developmental phase called matrescence.
And when you go through this phase, it's not just
like the mommy brain stigma, right, feeling foggy and forgetful.
That's a very small part of this, but really your
(08:45):
brain is on a path to brilliance. And what we
want to do is set up mothers for success, right,
so that they can sort of surf this tide of neuroplasticity.
So it's growing new neural networks and shedding useless ones printing.
So it's basically like Marie condoing the mind to give
moms a leg up and caregiving. That's the best way
(09:06):
I can say it. Honestly, That analogy is so good.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
How is our brain reorganizing and evolving itself to better
support a new baby.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
So it's fine tuning and priming itself for new learning.
And basically, when you think about it, you when you
become a mom, there's so much new learning, and so
this is where it gets into mothers get you know,
feel defeated and like a failure if they don't know
how to do something. But it's like, wait, you've never
done this before, and so you're building a new neural network.
(09:36):
I give the example of like when you're changing a diaper, right,
you've never done that before, but now you're learning, Okay,
what diaper works best? What does coverage for blowouts? How
tight should it go? Oh, there's a rash, I got
a diaper cream, And like you're basically building a whole
neural network around this very simple task. But it's not
simple at all. So imagine a million of those you
(09:58):
know going on and you're just building neural networks in
your brain.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Does that explain like I've heard the phrase mommy brain
or like brain fog? Does that explain some of that?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Yeah, so mommy brain really gets a bad rap and
it needs a rebrand. Right, So we think of mommy brain,
we think of the subjective experience of feeling foggy and forgetful.
It's the lapse in memory, and that subjective feeling is
very real. So I want to validate that you are
actually feeling that way and that's happening. But the thing
is is that when you look at the research, there's
(10:33):
very weak support for any differences in actual memory functioning
when you look at mothers compared to non mothers. Right, So,
and now we're seeing some studies that actually show some
cognitive boosts and mothers that are actually better at visual
memory and problem solving and efficiency and empathy, and so
having the subjective experience of mommy brain, the fogginess and
forgetfulness is actually just due to the increased mental load
(10:56):
and lack of sleep.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
So that's why you're feeling that way.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Okay, I know you just said it, but I have
to ask because it's like it's hard for me to understand.
So there are cognitive benefits that are happening in our
brains during this MATRESCNS period, but when I'm living it,
it doesn't feel that way. I just feel like a
hot mess.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Why why is that?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Because it's a complete overhaul of everything, your psyche, your brain,
your identity, your emotions. You have all these new experiences
and your brain needs time to catch up, and that's
why they call it an adaptation. So physically, you become
a mother overnight, but the actual psychological process takes longer,
and so we need to validate that even though you
(11:41):
feel this way, it's actually just on a path to
brilliance and you're developing new skills. You're rising to every
relentless challenge twenty four to seven because you don't have
a choice, mom, you know, and your kids are just
throwing things out you left and right, and you're just
figuring it out. Right, Yeah, you're figuring out how to
soothe them in the middle of the night. Right, a
baby crying? Is it going to be a bounce or
(12:02):
a rock? Are they hungry?
Speaker 5 (12:04):
Is it colic?
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Is it gas?
Speaker 5 (12:06):
Is the mixed formula to concentrated? I mean these are
a lot. You know. Motherhood is more cerebral than ever.
We're like constantly problem solving. And as you're doing that,
because you've.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Never done it before, your brain is developing at an
exponential rate and actually in a prime state of neuroplasticity.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
This means that it's primed for learning.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
So if you think about it in adolescence, those teen
experiences are like etched in our brains, right because there's
so much neuroplasticity going on, and so the same is
true for motherhood, right, And it's so like, what do
we want to etch in our brains. We want to
etch the skills that we're going to need to take
care of our baby. And as we're taking care of
our baby, our baby is teaching us how to take
(12:47):
care of them. And so we're learning. Our brain's evolving right,
and it's becoming better than ever, However, there are so
many landmines that get in the way. So one in
five mothers experience postpartum birth trauma. In becoming a mother
is its own normative trauma because it assaults every system
of your body in a very quick period of time.
And so I really think that society is not prepared
(13:10):
for mothers. And it's funny because I mean it's not funny,
but really the most unprepared are actual mothers, and we
can do so much better. We need to educate them
on the power that they have under the hood, what
they're working with, and that it takes time, and to
validate how challenging it is, but that it is evolving
and that they're doing it right. Right, This is how
(13:30):
it goes. Baby bonding takes longer than you think. Months actually,
but our social media feeds they show us pictures of
like we're supposed to love our baby overnight. Right, It's
just this majestic feeling, and I think we get moments
of bliss, but it's kind of hard to feel blissful
when you have spit up in your hair and you're
(13:51):
running on no sleep.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
It's unrequited that in that early stage. You know, as
you were talking, my brain was drawing parallels between the
dis comfort of the MATRESSNS period psychologically with imposter syndrome,
because now the way I view imposter syndrome. And it's funny,
we talked about this at that panel at shine Away
(14:13):
when we first met. I view it as a gap
in my skill set and where I think I want
to be. And there's a period where you know, I'm
accepting a new opportunity and I'm learning new skills. But
that period is still uncomfortable because I feel a bit
out of my depths. But at the same time, there
(14:33):
is brilliance brewing and I am working towards a better
version of myself. And it almost sounds like that's like
what the brain is going through exactly.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
I mean, neuroplasticity happens all the time, right, and so
therapy can change the brain. Life experiences can change the
brain exercise trauma, you know, So we have that to
work with. And as you're rising to every new challenge,
like what you're saying, you're building that neural network. You're
building lots of neural networks around this new experience and
you're learning and growing and the development is really like
(15:05):
an upward spiral, and so you're taking advantage of that
and moving forward and you're coming to each new situation
with more expertise, more coping skills, more neural power behind it.
That will just continue to propel you forward, even though
at times you probably hit the same emotions where it's
like you're having that feeling of imposter syndrome, right, but
(15:26):
you're actually not moving backwards. You're not back to that
beginner stage. You're moving forward.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
We have to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back with doctor Nicole Pensack. And we're back with
doctor Nicole Pensack.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
So how long does matrescence last? And you mentioned this
word before, but I'm just going to say the definition
that you have written in your book for Clarity, you
call matressens the process of becoming a mother, the physical, psychological,
and emotional changes you go through after the birth. Of
your child, which is largely unexported in the medical community.
How long does that period last?
Speaker 4 (16:11):
I mean, I think it goes on for a very
long time, but I would say the height of the
neuroplastic changes occur within the.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
First two years.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Got it.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
But as you know, we as a field in research
don't have a lot of data studying pregnant women and mothers.
You know, only four percent of research funding goes to
women's health studies. And I think we'll do better and
understand more about it, but really the longest term follow
up we have for mothers is two years, right, So
that's what we say when we think of like how
(16:40):
long does it last or long term effects. But I'll
tell you I have a five and seven year old.
I'm still going through matrescin. Okay, I was going through
it last week when I was when my son woke
up in the middle of the night and he had
an allergy, and I was trying to figure out what
it was and doing the mental calculations and giving him
medicine and trying to make him feel better and soothe him.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
So it just keeps going.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
They keep knowing how difficult postpartum can be. What do
you think new moms can do to prepare themselves for
this period.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
So in order to do the most amount of good
for the greatest amount of people, I always recommend setting
yourself up with a proactive postpartum mental health care team.
That means a therapist and prescriber that specialize in postpartum
mental health. And the reason being is that you have
your team waiting for you. You establish care with them,
(17:30):
so you know who you want to work with, you
know who you can trust, and even if you don't
need them, they're there for you. They understand your personal
risk factors that we know there are some for postpartum,
but even if you have no risk factors, you're still
at risk forgetting postpartum. And so what happens is mothers,
you know, no one thinks they're going to get postpartum.
I certainly was one of them, and having that team
(17:53):
on standby allowed me to not have to scramble last
minute to find a doctor, wait three months to get
an appointment, or you know, figure out who I want
to work with, or you know, trial and error that stuff.
And when you're in the heat or in the thick
of postpartum, you can't problem solve. And so I think
we would catch a lot more women if we had
that mental health care team in place, even if you
(18:14):
don't need it, because not to mention you're going through
so much. So even if you're not having a postpartum
crisis or postpartum mental health symptoms, you're still going through
this normative trauma, this huge adjustment, this huge developmental phase.
It's nice to have a thought partner to sort of
think about these things, not to mention all of the
new emotional experiences that you're having, like mom rage, mom shame,
(18:34):
mom guilt right in truth, absolutely intrusive thoughts.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
Ninety percent people have them.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Back to work, transitions, marital changes, division of labor.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
I mean, there's just so much going on.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
And so I actually think the postpartum period is an
opportune time to go to therapy because your brain is
primed for new learning. So it's new learning for your
baby and how to take care of your baby. Like
your brain biologically is working with you, know, for you
to help you take care of your baby, but it's
working against you to take care of yourself, right, because
that's not biologically advantageous. Right, you have to keep that
(19:11):
baby alive, and that's very important. I'm saying. Let's you know,
we have a saying in neuroscience, it's like neurin's a
fire together, wire together. So if you're learning how to
take care of your baby, let's also get in there
some strategies and skills to take care of yourself. And
I do believe that my treatment went that much further.
(19:31):
This was another part of where I felt like I
was thriving because I was in a prime state of
new learning.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
My brain was like a sponge.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
That's such good advice to get the mental health team
in place beforehand. No one told me that I would
have hugely benefited from that.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah, I've actually never heard anybody say.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
That, right, I haven't either, Danielle.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
Honestly, that's the I mean, if nothing else, that's my mission,
right to get to catch more mothers because so many
mothers are silently suffering, and we know that one in
five experience postpartum. We have a maternal mental health crisis,
but we know in the field that it's such an
underrepresentation of what's actually going on because mothers are afraid
(20:10):
of reporting their symptoms for fear that they'll be viewed
as unfit right, or that they're doing it wrong or
something's wrong with them. They just think they're failing, and
it's like, really, your brain is just going through an
immense overhaul that while these neuroplastic changes are happening, you're
with every heightened neuroplastic phase, you're also much more vulnerable
(20:30):
to experience the risks that come along, and so your
brain is actually more vulnerable to experience postpartum. Right, it's
nothing that you did, so I want to validate that.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Where do you land on medication?
Speaker 4 (20:43):
I think it can be life saving if you need it. Absolutely,
was that part of your treatment plan. It was, you know,
being an expert in doing therapy day and day out.
I kind of knew what level I was at, and
therapy worked with my first baby, Right, it was sort
of a mild postpartum experience. It's a mild post part
(21:07):
of most day. And then with the second one, I
was actually in crisis and I was like, you know what,
I need medication. I knew enough to know that I
had kind of reached that threshold and I wasn't sleeping
for five days, so I didn't know that was actually
physically possible, but my brain I could not shut off
because it was the height of COVID and my son
was in the NICU for five weeks, and then two
weeks later we were on lockdown. My husband is a physician,
(21:30):
and so he was getting text from overseas, and so
I was just terrified and mentally planning how I was
going to keep everyone alive in the house, including myself.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Does postpartum depression get worse the more babies you have?
It can?
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Yeah, you're at a higher risk each subsequent pregnancy, but
also pregnancies can be different, so it's not guaranteed, but
I would say that there's a slightly higher risk.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I experienced that, my friend. Yeah, my first one was
pretty mild. I was able to make it through that
like baby blues period, but the second one, I was
in crisis mode.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
How early on was that for you when you experience
the crisis days? Days, okay, a week and then it
just didn't stop.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
It It did subside, okay after So baby blues is
this period of acute hormonal change and distress within like
the first what two to four weeks after?
Speaker 5 (22:24):
No?
Speaker 4 (22:24):
No, no, no, absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
So what is the timeframe days?
Speaker 4 (22:31):
If you have symptoms two weeks out or longer. That's postpartum.
That's postpartum, got it.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
So so baby blues is just from birth till two weeks.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Yes, I would say even like the first week, right,
it really happens like in three days god after, and
then it lasts for several days. If it's lasting more
than a week or two, you're entering postpartum.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I felt like mine did subside. It
peaked during that period, during that baby blues period, but
then it did subside and it perhaps evolved into just
like this low grade postpartum depression. Got it.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Yeah, that happens too.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Well. There's a lot of hormonal changes that happen, like
you said, and we see two upticks in postpartum. The
first is right after the baby's born if you don't breastfeed,
because it's really a sharp drop in And I don't
know if this was your plan or not, but or
what happened for you, but it's usually an uptick right
after the baby's born if you don't breastfeed, and then
also another uptick when you wean from breastfeeding. So that's
(23:33):
why it's good to have a post part of mental
health provider that knows what they're looking at, and can
also time the follow up appointments at vulnerable times depending
on what's going on developmental phase wise with the baby,
but also for you know, the mom and breastfeeding.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, I really appreciated this part in your book when
you address distorted thoughts and the times at which we
are more susceptible to those, and you write that it's
easy to think distorted thoughts when we're depressed to anxious
or not feeling at home in our bodies. What are
some of the most common cognitive distortions that you've come
across with mothers in your work.
Speaker 5 (24:11):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
I mean, I hear all the time, you know, I'm failing,
I'm not cut out to be a mother. This isn't
for me. It's you know, I'm no good at this.
So it's a lot of black and white thinking. I
hear a lot of you know, my brain is mush,
I'm not functioning well. Meanwhile, you're functioning really well. You're
just functioning differently, and we kind of have to reframe that.
(24:36):
But I think, you know, anxiety and depression and postpartum
can really distort our perception of things, and so there's
the black and white thinking, the all are nothing, the perfect,
the failure, feeling down on yourself. That really just so
many women are suffering with that, and especially I have
to say women that are very high functioning, they actually
(24:58):
are more vulnerable to experience postpartum anxiety because they're the
women that are like CEOs in their personal life, like
they're in charge, you know, they've they've got everything set right,
and so they fall harder in the postpart and period
because they're like, wait a minute, I'm a beginner. I'm
not comfortable being a beginner. You have to get comfortable
(25:18):
with being a beginner at motherhood. You'd never done it before,
and when you have another kid, you haven't done it
with two kids, so it's like constantly knocking you back
and you're like, wait a minute, Like when am I
going to feel the competence that I feel in every
other facet of my life?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, it's time for another short break, but don't go anywhere.
We'll be right back to wellness Wednesday with doctor Nicole Pensack.
And we're back with doctor Nicole Pensack. Well, what I
found empowering about your writing is that you offer solutions,
(25:56):
particularly about actions that we can take to really take
advantage of the neuroplasticity of this stage. So, what are
some examples of self directed neural plasticity. What are ways
to stimulate the new neural pathways.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
So I think one of the most important ways, and
sort of at baseline, is, you know, get postpart and
mental health treatment right. So we want this process to
go right if you have postpartum you know, So that's
just like the tip of the iceberg. In general, you know,
exercise and sleep and taking care of yourself, that's all
going to promote neuroplasticity. These are good things for your brain.
More specifically, when I talk about self directed neuroplasticity again,
(26:36):
I'm talking about the neurons that fire together, wire together.
And so when you're learning to take care of your baby,
you're learning also how to take care of yourself.
Speaker 5 (26:44):
And I talk.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
About the power of positive emotions through the broaden and
build theory. So I use this actually with mom guilt.
So I get a lot of moms come to me
with mom guilt and I help them kind of double
down on that mom guilt. So mom guilt says, you know,
I shouldn't go out and enjoy this dinner with the girls. Right,
(27:07):
I'm going to check the baby monitor. I should be home.
I feel bad leaving the baby. But if you do that,
you're not getting the benefits of the positive emotional experiences
that you would get when you're at dinner with your girlfriends, right,
and the replenishment you're refilling the tank.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
This is good for you.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
The best predictor of childhood mental health is actually maternal
mental health. So I wouldn't help my patient basically lean
into that moment right and get into the present, Like,
put your phone away. How do we make this bigger
for you? How do we enhance your senses? Do you
need to order your favorite dessert, your drink, You have
to have something that you want to talk about that's
(27:44):
really fun. But we need to get you into the
moment so you're actually getting the positive emotional experiences that
are going to help these neuroplastic changes move along. Right,
And I talk about mom flow, So you're probably familiar
with just the general concept of flow.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Right.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
When you're immersed in an activity, it's a transcendent state
and you lose your time, right, you're just kind of
immersed in it. And back when I was, you know,
working in academia, I would enjoy hours at a time,
you know, writing being uninterrupted, right, And then when I
became a mom, I mean everything's interrupted and I missed flow,
right because I was like really rewarding, you know, I
felt really creative, like bursts of energy and just like
(28:21):
being immersed in the task, like it's very healing. And
so I had to teach myself how to get into
mom flow. I call it mom flow. Just teaching myself
how to get into flow more quickly, you know, like
in a half hour, in short bursts.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
And it takes practice.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
But really, these positive emotional experiences are what's going to
bring you, not just to survive, but to thrive. Right.
And so when I have patients I work with them,
I want them to feel better than ever. Right.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
Post part of mental health care is like just the
tip of the iceberg. Right, there's so much more.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
That's why I really want to educate mothers and society
and you know, partners that this is a profound developmental phase.
Speaker 5 (28:58):
There's it's a missed opportunity here.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
It's brilliant in the making, but we need to nurture it,
we need to help it go right.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
That short burst of creativity or energy that you call
mom flow is so awesome. I feel like even non
moms can prepare and try to learn how to do that.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
It feels so efficient to me.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Nikki, thank you for saying that. I mean, that was
very intentional in the book. I tried to make this
book really life advice, right. So even though it says,
you know, harness the power of the postpartum brain, it's
really for moms, dads, partners, you know. I get contacted
from you know, grandmothers that are like, I wish I
(29:39):
had this book, but actually it's just good life skills, right,
And so that was really intentional to make it general
enough so that everyone could benefit, because I do believe
everyone needs to understand and it's you know, backed by science,
and I bring in a lot of cognitive behavioral therapeutic
techniques that are evidence based. This is our gold standard
treatment for things like anxiety depression management and really just
(30:03):
good strategies to have one hand.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Well, speaking of everybody, something I found so interesting was
that some of these brain changes can occur in fathers
and non biological caregivers.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Also. That is so fascinating. How does that happen, that's right.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
So what happens is there's a great researcher in New York,
Ruth Feldman, and she identified the caregiver network in the brain.
And so what happens for fathers and non biological caregivers
is that it's a top down approach where they're learning
and actually better at social learning. So fathers are better
at social learning with their kids because they're learning how
(30:40):
to take care of their kids through experience, right where mothers.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
They get more of a biological push.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
And so it's a bottom up approach, right, So you
get the biological basis, the hormone changes and everything, but
fathers and non biological caregivers get this as well. And actually,
the more immersed you are in taking care of the
baby or the children, the more neuroplastic changes that you have.
So it really does change your brain. And this is
why I'm talking about like neuroplastic changes can happen just
(31:08):
from experiences as well. It just so occurs that mothers
have this developmental phase where it's just like, you know,
an overflow of neuroplasticity.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Well, to wrap up this incredibly insightful conversation, Nikki, you've
said that mommy brain needs a rebrand, so you have
the floor. What is your vision for the mommy brain rebrand?
Is there a new name that you think it deserves.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Well, you know, I'm trying to get mothers to you know,
when they do something fabulous, right, like when they figure
out how to soothe their baby, when they problem solve
in a way that makes them feel powerful, when they
nail that first back to work meeting, when they you know,
are able to get their toddler and baby out the
door at the same time and make that appointment on time.
(31:52):
That like they turn to themselves and they're like, that's
my mom brain. Like, my mom brain is helping me
do that. Like when they have successes, that's their mom brain.
That's the brilliance of it. And it's not just this
derogatory stigma of the fogginess and forgetfulness. I think that
that it gets a bad rap and it's like, no,
you're when you're doing brilliant things, like that's your mom brain.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Maybe it should be mom brilliance. I love it.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
I like that, Doctor Nikki, thank you so much for
joining us.
Speaker 5 (32:20):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Doctor Nicole Pensac is a clinical psychologist and the author
of rattlet How to Calm New mom Anxiety with the
Power of the Postpartum Brain.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we've got another edition
of shelf Life. We're joined by author Alegra Goodman to
talk about her new novel, Isla, which is the February
pick for Reese's Book Club.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram
and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok Oh, and
feel free to tag us at Simone Voice and at
Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.
Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today, on the bright side, we're
unlocking the secret superpowers of the mommy brain. You've heard
about the brain fog or over stimulation, but clinical psychologist
doctor Nicole Pensac is here to tell us why we
should be celebrating the cognitive benefits of the postpartum brain.
It's Wednesday, February twenty six. I'm Simone Boyce.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright side from
Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Okay, Danielle, you know how much I love cool vocabulary.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Right of course, I have a whole list of your
vocab written down in my notes.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Fad verdant comes to mind.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Verdant is a good one. I have a new favorite.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Word, Okay, give it to me.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And this word is so important because it's often hard
to describe just how vast and transformative the physical and
physiological changes are that come with motherhood. So there is
the term called matrescence, and it literally means the physiological
changes that happen in our brain, happened in our bodies everything,
(01:08):
and encapsulates this huge life shift into motherhood goodness. And
that's exactly what doctor Nicole Pensack talks about in her book,
it's called Rattled, and honestly, it is one of these
books that I'm keeping in my arsenal whenever I have
a friend who is about to give birth, because I
just think it's essential reading for anyone who's about to
(01:28):
enter into that life stage.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
And doctor Nicole Pensick is a clinical psychologist, and she's
someone who's both studied the postpartum experience and gone through
it herself. She's a mom. And you went through at
some moment. What was that period of time post earth
like for you? Well, for me, it varied so much
between the two kids. I think the first time I
(01:51):
went through postpartum, I was filled with this like euphoria
and bliss and I really just wanted to soak up
every moment. I think the second time, and the research
reflects this, postpartum hit me a lot harder and I
really wasn't prepared for that. I had heard about postpartum,
(02:13):
but it's almost it's so hard to recognize it in
yourself because you kind of you minimize your own experience
and you're like.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Oh, no, this wouldn't happen to me. Of course it
would happen to someone else, but this isn't. There's no
way this is actually happening to me, And it's actually
taken me years of reflection to look back and realize, Yeah,
I think that was my experience. I think I was
dealing with postpartum depression.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
What were you feeling?
Speaker 1 (02:38):
There is a heightened sense of depression that I experienced
in the first two weeks after giving birth to my
second child, so much so that I called a suicide
hotline because I didn't know who to talk to. I
was in a time of crisis and I just needed
to speak to a mental health professional immediately. So that's
(03:01):
like the extreme side of it. That extreme crisis situation
eventually faded away, and I think what it evolved into
was this very low grade postpartum depression. And so when
I say that, I it was hard for me to
recognize it in myself. I think I wasn't ready to
(03:23):
accept that. Postpartum depression can manifest in a lot of
different ways. You know, it can be those extreme feelings
of self harm, or it can be this kind of latent,
insidious depression that lingers.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I'm so sorry to hear that. That's that's incredible crisis, you.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Know, I think the conversation around postpartum depression has really
evolved and expanded in recent years, and I'm happy that
we are at a place where we feel like we
can talk about these things. But it's so complicated and layered.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yes, there are the moments of crisis, which I experienced
at times in my own journey, but there's also this
other side of the postpartum brain that I think is
worthy of celebration, Like my capacity for thought, my capacity
(04:22):
for tasks expanded in miraculous ways when I became a parent,
and those are things that I still take with me
and carry with me into my life outside of my home.
And that's what doctor Niki Pensac's book Rattled is all about.
I mean, she's all about rebranding the mommy brain and
reminding us that there are so many cognitive benefits to
(04:45):
celebrate here.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Today's episode is definitely one you'll want to share with
a mother in your life, but it's not limited to
biological mothers. I think it's great for caregivers LGBTQ parents.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
A lot of people can reap the benefits of this episode.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Go ahead and bring her in, doctor Nicki Panzac. Welcome
to the bright Side.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
Thanks for having me welcome.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
This is not the first time that we've met you.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
We got to meet you at Shinaway last year, and
I really loved connecting with you.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
You had such a bright spirit.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
It was so fun to be there and be at
your live recording and participate. I mean it was just
fantastic and the whole event was just amazing.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
So so inspiring, right, and like I felt so hyped up.
I did.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Yeah, I did as well, and just connected with so
many fabulous women like you two, and just excited to
be here.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Well, you gave us both a copy of your book
at Shinawa. I have it right here. It's called Rattled,
How to Calm New mom Anxiety with the Power of
the Postpartum Brain. And I read the book and I
just really appreciated the positive spin, like the rebrand of
the postpartum brain, because we've been we've been told how
negative it is and oh, you got to prepare for
how much your brain is going to change in such
(05:53):
a negative way. But you brought so much positivity to it.
And we're going to get into that, but first, let's
talk about your background a little bit. So, Nikki, you're
a clinical psychologist who specializes in treating postpartum. You were
trained at Yale and Harvard certified and perinatal mental health.
So your resume says that you should have been one
hundred percent prepared for everything that comes with motherhood. But
(06:15):
the reality is so much different, right, Like what surprised
you the most about that transition into motherhood that you
could have never prepared for?
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Oh? I mean so many things, but I think my
story really began, you know, as all great stories begin,
on the floor crying in my closet, and I was
It was a real, you know, doctor becomes patient moment
where I was diagnosing myself in real time and calling
my doctor in tears, telling my doctor, I'm ready for
(06:45):
I need postpartum treatment. And that was just an incredibly
humbling moment for me where I felt like, if I
have all the resources at my fingertips, you know what's
going on out there. You know, I wasn't immune, and
so I got treatment very quickly because I did what
I instruct my patients to do, right. I set up
(07:06):
my proactive postpart of mental health care team and they
were ready to go so that I was able to
get treated very quickly. And then I went from really
rock bottom to thriving in a short period of time,
And as an academic researcher, I went back to the science.
I really wanted to understand how did I go from
rock bottom to this place of feeling better than ever
motivated in the world's worst circumstances. So COVID was going
(07:29):
on at the time as well, and I really uncovered
a story that's not being told but that everyone needs
to hear.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, we're going to get more into your personal story
in a little bit, but I want to talk about
what's going on in our brains during this critical time,
because you write that the peripartum phase and transition to
motherhood is the single greatest amount of neurobiological change a
mother can go through in the shortest period of time.
That's so huge. So what's happening to our brains during
(07:59):
this period and how does that affect us?
Speaker 4 (08:01):
So when a woman becomes a mother, your brain, your body,
your relationships, your psyche, everything changes in a short amount
of time. Your brain basically creates new neural networks, fine tunes,
and primes itself for taking care of a baby. And
so what mothers don't realize is that it's a complete
(08:24):
overhaul of your brain and things are running more efficiently,
but it sort of takes time to get there. So
Yale has now named this a neurocognitive developmental phase called matrescence.
And when you go through this phase, it's not just
like the mommy brain stigma, right, feeling foggy and forgetful.
That's a very small part of this, but really your
(08:45):
brain is on a path to brilliance. And what we
want to do is set up mothers for success, right,
so that they can sort of surf this tide of neuroplasticity.
So it's growing new neural networks and shedding useless ones printing.
So it's basically like Marie condoing the mind to give
moms a leg up and caregiving. That's the best way
(09:06):
I can say it. Honestly, That analogy is so good.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
How is our brain reorganizing and evolving itself to better
support a new baby.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
So it's fine tuning and priming itself for new learning.
And basically, when you think about it, you when you
become a mom, there's so much new learning, and so
this is where it gets into mothers get you know,
feel defeated and like a failure if they don't know
how to do something. But it's like, wait, you've never
done this before, and so you're building a new neural network.
(09:36):
I give the example of like when you're changing a diaper, right,
you've never done that before, but now you're learning, Okay,
what diaper works best? What does coverage for blowouts? How
tight should it go? Oh, there's a rash, I got
a diaper cream, And like you're basically building a whole
neural network around this very simple task. But it's not
simple at all. So imagine a million of those you
(09:58):
know going on and you're just building neural networks in
your brain.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Does that explain like I've heard the phrase mommy brain
or like brain fog? Does that explain some of that?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Yeah, so mommy brain really gets a bad rap and
it needs a rebrand. Right, So we think of mommy brain,
we think of the subjective experience of feeling foggy and forgetful.
It's the lapse in memory, and that subjective feeling is
very real. So I want to validate that you are
actually feeling that way and that's happening. But the thing
is is that when you look at the research, there's
(10:33):
very weak support for any differences in actual memory functioning
when you look at mothers compared to non mothers. Right, So,
and now we're seeing some studies that actually show some
cognitive boosts and mothers that are actually better at visual
memory and problem solving and efficiency and empathy, and so
having the subjective experience of mommy brain, the fogginess and
forgetfulness is actually just due to the increased mental load
(10:56):
and lack of sleep.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
So that's why you're feeling that way.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Okay, I know you just said it, but I have
to ask because it's like it's hard for me to understand.
So there are cognitive benefits that are happening in our
brains during this MATRESCNS period, but when I'm living it,
it doesn't feel that way. I just feel like a
hot mess.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Why why is that?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Because it's a complete overhaul of everything, your psyche, your brain,
your identity, your emotions. You have all these new experiences
and your brain needs time to catch up, and that's
why they call it an adaptation. So physically, you become
a mother overnight, but the actual psychological process takes longer,
and so we need to validate that even though you
(11:41):
feel this way, it's actually just on a path to
brilliance and you're developing new skills. You're rising to every
relentless challenge twenty four to seven because you don't have
a choice, mom, you know, and your kids are just
throwing things out you left and right, and you're just
figuring it out. Right, Yeah, you're figuring out how to
soothe them in the middle of the night. Right, a
baby crying? Is it going to be a bounce or
(12:02):
a rock? Are they hungry?
Speaker 5 (12:04):
Is it colic?
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Is it gas?
Speaker 5 (12:06):
Is the mixed formula to concentrated? I mean these are
a lot. You know. Motherhood is more cerebral than ever.
We're like constantly problem solving. And as you're doing that,
because you've.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Never done it before, your brain is developing at an
exponential rate and actually in a prime state of neuroplasticity.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
This means that it's primed for learning.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
So if you think about it in adolescence, those teen
experiences are like etched in our brains, right because there's
so much neuroplasticity going on, and so the same is
true for motherhood, right, And it's so like, what do
we want to etch in our brains. We want to
etch the skills that we're going to need to take
care of our baby. And as we're taking care of
our baby, our baby is teaching us how to take
(12:47):
care of them. And so we're learning. Our brain's evolving right,
and it's becoming better than ever, However, there are so
many landmines that get in the way. So one in
five mothers experience postpartum birth trauma. In becoming a mother
is its own normative trauma because it assaults every system
of your body in a very quick period of time.
And so I really think that society is not prepared
(13:10):
for mothers. And it's funny because I mean it's not funny,
but really the most unprepared are actual mothers, and we
can do so much better. We need to educate them
on the power that they have under the hood, what
they're working with, and that it takes time, and to
validate how challenging it is, but that it is evolving
and that they're doing it right. Right, This is how
(13:30):
it goes. Baby bonding takes longer than you think. Months actually,
but our social media feeds they show us pictures of
like we're supposed to love our baby overnight. Right, It's
just this majestic feeling, and I think we get moments
of bliss, but it's kind of hard to feel blissful
when you have spit up in your hair and you're
(13:51):
running on no sleep.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
It's unrequited that in that early stage. You know, as
you were talking, my brain was drawing parallels between the
dis comfort of the MATRESSNS period psychologically with imposter syndrome,
because now the way I view imposter syndrome. And it's funny,
we talked about this at that panel at shine Away
(14:13):
when we first met. I view it as a gap
in my skill set and where I think I want
to be. And there's a period where you know, I'm
accepting a new opportunity and I'm learning new skills. But
that period is still uncomfortable because I feel a bit
out of my depths. But at the same time, there
(14:33):
is brilliance brewing and I am working towards a better
version of myself. And it almost sounds like that's like
what the brain is going through exactly.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
I mean, neuroplasticity happens all the time, right, and so
therapy can change the brain. Life experiences can change the
brain exercise trauma, you know, So we have that to
work with. And as you're rising to every new challenge,
like what you're saying, you're building that neural network. You're
building lots of neural networks around this new experience and
you're learning and growing and the development is really like
(15:05):
an upward spiral, and so you're taking advantage of that
and moving forward and you're coming to each new situation
with more expertise, more coping skills, more neural power behind it.
That will just continue to propel you forward, even though
at times you probably hit the same emotions where it's
like you're having that feeling of imposter syndrome, right, but
(15:26):
you're actually not moving backwards. You're not back to that
beginner stage. You're moving forward.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
We have to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back with doctor Nicole Pensack. And we're back with
doctor Nicole Pensack.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
So how long does matrescence last? And you mentioned this
word before, but I'm just going to say the definition
that you have written in your book for Clarity, you
call matressens the process of becoming a mother, the physical, psychological,
and emotional changes you go through after the birth. Of
your child, which is largely unexported in the medical community.
How long does that period last?
Speaker 4 (16:11):
I mean, I think it goes on for a very
long time, but I would say the height of the
neuroplastic changes occur within the.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
First two years.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Got it.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
But as you know, we as a field in research
don't have a lot of data studying pregnant women and mothers.
You know, only four percent of research funding goes to
women's health studies. And I think we'll do better and
understand more about it, but really the longest term follow
up we have for mothers is two years, right, So
that's what we say when we think of like how
(16:40):
long does it last or long term effects. But I'll
tell you I have a five and seven year old.
I'm still going through matrescin. Okay, I was going through
it last week when I was when my son woke
up in the middle of the night and he had
an allergy, and I was trying to figure out what
it was and doing the mental calculations and giving him
medicine and trying to make him feel better and soothe him.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
So it just keeps going.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
They keep knowing how difficult postpartum can be. What do
you think new moms can do to prepare themselves for
this period.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
So in order to do the most amount of good
for the greatest amount of people, I always recommend setting
yourself up with a proactive postpartum mental health care team.
That means a therapist and prescriber that specialize in postpartum
mental health. And the reason being is that you have
your team waiting for you. You establish care with them,
(17:30):
so you know who you want to work with, you
know who you can trust, and even if you don't
need them, they're there for you. They understand your personal
risk factors that we know there are some for postpartum,
but even if you have no risk factors, you're still
at risk forgetting postpartum. And so what happens is mothers,
you know, no one thinks they're going to get postpartum.
I certainly was one of them, and having that team
(17:53):
on standby allowed me to not have to scramble last
minute to find a doctor, wait three months to get
an appointment, or you know, figure out who I want
to work with, or you know, trial and error that stuff.
And when you're in the heat or in the thick
of postpartum, you can't problem solve. And so I think
we would catch a lot more women if we had
that mental health care team in place, even if you
(18:14):
don't need it, because not to mention you're going through
so much. So even if you're not having a postpartum
crisis or postpartum mental health symptoms, you're still going through
this normative trauma, this huge adjustment, this huge developmental phase.
It's nice to have a thought partner to sort of
think about these things, not to mention all of the
new emotional experiences that you're having, like mom rage, mom shame,
(18:34):
mom guilt right in truth, absolutely intrusive thoughts.
Speaker 5 (18:38):
Ninety percent people have them.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Back to work, transitions, marital changes, division of labor.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
I mean, there's just so much going on.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
And so I actually think the postpartum period is an
opportune time to go to therapy because your brain is
primed for new learning. So it's new learning for your
baby and how to take care of your baby. Like
your brain biologically is working with you, know, for you
to help you take care of your baby, but it's
working against you to take care of yourself, right, because
that's not biologically advantageous. Right, you have to keep that
(19:11):
baby alive, and that's very important. I'm saying. Let's you know,
we have a saying in neuroscience, it's like neurin's a
fire together, wire together. So if you're learning how to
take care of your baby, let's also get in there
some strategies and skills to take care of yourself. And
I do believe that my treatment went that much further.
(19:31):
This was another part of where I felt like I
was thriving because I was in a prime state of
new learning.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
My brain was like a sponge.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
That's such good advice to get the mental health team
in place beforehand. No one told me that I would
have hugely benefited from that.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah, I've actually never heard anybody say.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
That, right, I haven't either, Danielle.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
Honestly, that's the I mean, if nothing else, that's my mission,
right to get to catch more mothers because so many
mothers are silently suffering, and we know that one in
five experience postpartum. We have a maternal mental health crisis,
but we know in the field that it's such an
underrepresentation of what's actually going on because mothers are afraid
(20:10):
of reporting their symptoms for fear that they'll be viewed
as unfit right, or that they're doing it wrong or
something's wrong with them. They just think they're failing, and
it's like, really, your brain is just going through an
immense overhaul that while these neuroplastic changes are happening, you're
with every heightened neuroplastic phase, you're also much more vulnerable
(20:30):
to experience the risks that come along, and so your
brain is actually more vulnerable to experience postpartum. Right, it's
nothing that you did, so I want to validate that.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Where do you land on medication?
Speaker 4 (20:43):
I think it can be life saving if you need it. Absolutely,
was that part of your treatment plan. It was, you know,
being an expert in doing therapy day and day out.
I kind of knew what level I was at, and
therapy worked with my first baby, Right, it was sort
of a mild postpartum experience. It's a mild post part
(21:07):
of most day. And then with the second one, I
was actually in crisis and I was like, you know what,
I need medication. I knew enough to know that I
had kind of reached that threshold and I wasn't sleeping
for five days, so I didn't know that was actually
physically possible, but my brain I could not shut off
because it was the height of COVID and my son
was in the NICU for five weeks, and then two
weeks later we were on lockdown. My husband is a physician,
(21:30):
and so he was getting text from overseas, and so
I was just terrified and mentally planning how I was
going to keep everyone alive in the house, including myself.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Does postpartum depression get worse the more babies you have?
It can?
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Yeah, you're at a higher risk each subsequent pregnancy, but
also pregnancies can be different, so it's not guaranteed, but
I would say that there's a slightly higher risk.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I experienced that, my friend. Yeah, my first one was
pretty mild. I was able to make it through that
like baby blues period, but the second one, I was
in crisis mode.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
How early on was that for you when you experience
the crisis days? Days, okay, a week and then it
just didn't stop.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
It It did subside, okay after So baby blues is
this period of acute hormonal change and distress within like
the first what two to four weeks after?
Speaker 5 (22:24):
No?
Speaker 4 (22:24):
No, no, no, absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
So what is the timeframe days?
Speaker 4 (22:31):
If you have symptoms two weeks out or longer. That's postpartum.
That's postpartum, got it.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
So so baby blues is just from birth till two weeks.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Yes, I would say even like the first week, right,
it really happens like in three days god after, and
then it lasts for several days. If it's lasting more
than a week or two, you're entering postpartum.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I felt like mine did subside. It
peaked during that period, during that baby blues period, but
then it did subside and it perhaps evolved into just
like this low grade postpartum depression. Got it.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Yeah, that happens too.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Well. There's a lot of hormonal changes that happen, like
you said, and we see two upticks in postpartum. The
first is right after the baby's born if you don't breastfeed,
because it's really a sharp drop in And I don't
know if this was your plan or not, but or
what happened for you, but it's usually an uptick right
after the baby's born if you don't breastfeed, and then
also another uptick when you wean from breastfeeding. So that's
(23:33):
why it's good to have a post part of mental
health provider that knows what they're looking at, and can
also time the follow up appointments at vulnerable times depending
on what's going on developmental phase wise with the baby,
but also for you know, the mom and breastfeeding.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, I really appreciated this part in your book when
you address distorted thoughts and the times at which we
are more susceptible to those, and you write that it's
easy to think distorted thoughts when we're depressed to anxious
or not feeling at home in our bodies. What are
some of the most common cognitive distortions that you've come
across with mothers in your work.
Speaker 5 (24:11):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
I mean, I hear all the time, you know, I'm failing,
I'm not cut out to be a mother. This isn't
for me. It's you know, I'm no good at this.
So it's a lot of black and white thinking. I
hear a lot of you know, my brain is mush,
I'm not functioning well. Meanwhile, you're functioning really well. You're
just functioning differently, and we kind of have to reframe that.
(24:36):
But I think, you know, anxiety and depression and postpartum
can really distort our perception of things, and so there's
the black and white thinking, the all are nothing, the perfect,
the failure, feeling down on yourself. That really just so
many women are suffering with that, and especially I have
to say women that are very high functioning, they actually
(24:58):
are more vulnerable to experience postpartum anxiety because they're the
women that are like CEOs in their personal life, like
they're in charge, you know, they've they've got everything set right,
and so they fall harder in the postpart and period
because they're like, wait a minute, I'm a beginner. I'm
not comfortable being a beginner. You have to get comfortable
(25:18):
with being a beginner at motherhood. You'd never done it before,
and when you have another kid, you haven't done it
with two kids, so it's like constantly knocking you back
and you're like, wait a minute, Like when am I
going to feel the competence that I feel in every
other facet of my life?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, it's time for another short break, but don't go anywhere.
We'll be right back to wellness Wednesday with doctor Nicole Pensack.
And we're back with doctor Nicole Pensack. Well, what I
found empowering about your writing is that you offer solutions,
(25:56):
particularly about actions that we can take to really take
advantage of the neuroplasticity of this stage. So, what are
some examples of self directed neural plasticity. What are ways
to stimulate the new neural pathways.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
So I think one of the most important ways, and
sort of at baseline, is, you know, get postpart and
mental health treatment right. So we want this process to
go right if you have postpartum you know, So that's
just like the tip of the iceberg. In general, you know,
exercise and sleep and taking care of yourself, that's all
going to promote neuroplasticity. These are good things for your brain.
More specifically, when I talk about self directed neuroplasticity again,
(26:36):
I'm talking about the neurons that fire together, wire together.
And so when you're learning to take care of your baby,
you're learning also how to take care of yourself.
Speaker 5 (26:44):
And I talk.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
About the power of positive emotions through the broaden and
build theory. So I use this actually with mom guilt.
So I get a lot of moms come to me
with mom guilt and I help them kind of double
down on that mom guilt. So mom guilt says, you know,
I shouldn't go out and enjoy this dinner with the girls. Right,
(27:07):
I'm going to check the baby monitor. I should be home.
I feel bad leaving the baby. But if you do that,
you're not getting the benefits of the positive emotional experiences
that you would get when you're at dinner with your girlfriends, right,
and the replenishment you're refilling the tank.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
This is good for you.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
The best predictor of childhood mental health is actually maternal
mental health. So I wouldn't help my patient basically lean
into that moment right and get into the present, Like,
put your phone away. How do we make this bigger
for you? How do we enhance your senses? Do you
need to order your favorite dessert, your drink, You have
to have something that you want to talk about that's
(27:44):
really fun. But we need to get you into the
moment so you're actually getting the positive emotional experiences that
are going to help these neuroplastic changes move along. Right,
And I talk about mom flow, So you're probably familiar
with just the general concept of flow.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Right.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
When you're immersed in an activity, it's a transcendent state
and you lose your time, right, you're just kind of
immersed in it. And back when I was, you know,
working in academia, I would enjoy hours at a time,
you know, writing being uninterrupted, right, And then when I
became a mom, I mean everything's interrupted and I missed flow,
right because I was like really rewarding, you know, I
felt really creative, like bursts of energy and just like
(28:21):
being immersed in the task, like it's very healing. And
so I had to teach myself how to get into
mom flow. I call it mom flow. Just teaching myself
how to get into flow more quickly, you know, like
in a half hour, in short bursts.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
And it takes practice.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
But really, these positive emotional experiences are what's going to
bring you, not just to survive, but to thrive. Right.
And so when I have patients I work with them,
I want them to feel better than ever. Right.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
Post part of mental health care is like just the
tip of the iceberg. Right, there's so much more.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
That's why I really want to educate mothers and society
and you know, partners that this is a profound developmental phase.
Speaker 5 (28:58):
There's it's a missed opportunity here.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
It's brilliant in the making, but we need to nurture it,
we need to help it go right.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
That short burst of creativity or energy that you call
mom flow is so awesome. I feel like even non
moms can prepare and try to learn how to do that.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
It feels so efficient to me.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
Nikki, thank you for saying that. I mean, that was
very intentional in the book. I tried to make this
book really life advice, right. So even though it says,
you know, harness the power of the postpartum brain, it's
really for moms, dads, partners, you know. I get contacted
from you know, grandmothers that are like, I wish I
(29:39):
had this book, but actually it's just good life skills, right,
And so that was really intentional to make it general
enough so that everyone could benefit, because I do believe
everyone needs to understand and it's you know, backed by science,
and I bring in a lot of cognitive behavioral therapeutic
techniques that are evidence based. This is our gold standard
treatment for things like anxiety depression management and really just
(30:03):
good strategies to have one hand.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Well, speaking of everybody, something I found so interesting was
that some of these brain changes can occur in fathers
and non biological caregivers.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Also. That is so fascinating. How does that happen, that's right.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
So what happens is there's a great researcher in New York,
Ruth Feldman, and she identified the caregiver network in the brain.
And so what happens for fathers and non biological caregivers
is that it's a top down approach where they're learning
and actually better at social learning. So fathers are better
at social learning with their kids because they're learning how
(30:40):
to take care of their kids through experience, right where mothers.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
They get more of a biological push.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
And so it's a bottom up approach, right, So you
get the biological basis, the hormone changes and everything, but
fathers and non biological caregivers get this as well. And actually,
the more immersed you are in taking care of the
baby or the children, the more neuroplastic changes that you have.
So it really does change your brain. And this is
why I'm talking about like neuroplastic changes can happen just
(31:08):
from experiences as well. It just so occurs that mothers
have this developmental phase where it's just like, you know,
an overflow of neuroplasticity.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Well, to wrap up this incredibly insightful conversation, Nikki, you've
said that mommy brain needs a rebrand, so you have
the floor. What is your vision for the mommy brain rebrand?
Is there a new name that you think it deserves.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Well, you know, I'm trying to get mothers to you know,
when they do something fabulous, right, like when they figure
out how to soothe their baby, when they problem solve
in a way that makes them feel powerful, when they
nail that first back to work meeting, when they you know,
are able to get their toddler and baby out the
door at the same time and make that appointment on time.
(31:52):
That like they turn to themselves and they're like, that's
my mom brain. Like, my mom brain is helping me
do that. Like when they have successes, that's their mom brain.
That's the brilliance of it. And it's not just this
derogatory stigma of the fogginess and forgetfulness. I think that
that it gets a bad rap and it's like, no,
you're when you're doing brilliant things, like that's your mom brain.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Maybe it should be mom brilliance. I love it.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
I like that, Doctor Nikki, thank you so much for
joining us.
Speaker 5 (32:20):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Doctor Nicole Pensac is a clinical psychologist and the author
of rattlet How to Calm New mom Anxiety with the
Power of the Postpartum Brain.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we've got another edition
of shelf Life. We're joined by author Alegra Goodman to
talk about her new novel, Isla, which is the February
pick for Reese's Book Club.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram
and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok Oh, and
feel free to tag us at Simone Voice and at
Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.
Hosts And Creators
Simone Boyce
Danielle Robay
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