March 20, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of The Deal, Alex Rodriguez and Jason Kelly talk with the New York Yankees’ Assistant General Manager, Jean Afterman. Afterman explains how she helped change the game by helping to introduce Japanese players to the MLB, what she learned from legendary Yankees owner, George Steinbrenner, and the advice her mother gave her to start off every negotiation on the strongest foot.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi everyone, welcome to the deal. I'm your host, Jason
Kelly longside my partner Alex Rodriguez.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
All right, Alex, we're gonna talk some baseball.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I have to say, this has been a really fun
early twenty twenty five, you know, so to spring up
twenty twenty five. I feel like we're diving into baseball
in a really meaningful way, which kind of makes sense
since you played the game pretty well. But one of
the great things about the show is the access that
you bring to some people who might be a little
(00:41):
less known but are incredibly important. Gene Aferman is one
of those people, assistant general manager for the Yankees. Help
us understand before we get into the conversation who she is.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Well, first of all, what I think she's a person
that should be in the Hall of Fame. And I
say that because she's been assistant general manager to Brian
Cashman for over twenty plus years. And you know, give
credit to the late George Steinbernner for bringing in a
strong woman who's a lawyer, an incredible asset to the
(01:13):
New York Yankees. And this episode, Jason was special to
me because I'm so close to Jean and we've been
through so much highs and lows, and she was always
the voice of reason in that organization. And while she
never put up with any bs, she was always like
so transparent and so honest, And so you will hear
(01:33):
that in our episode.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Oh take no prisoners for sure.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
One of the interesting things about her, and one of
the really timely elements to this is back in the nineties,
she was really early on in identifying the potential for
the business of baseball in Japan. We now take that
pretty much for granted. We have a generational player that
we're all getting to watch in Shohyo Tani. She was
(01:57):
on that story law long long ago, and I feel
like given some of your experience as a player, some
of your more recent experience as a businessman, you appreciate
sort of this nexus of baseball in Japan.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
You were just there not too long ago, right, a
few months back.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
I was. I was there and it was my third
time in Japan, and it was the time that I
actually enjoyed it the most because I didn't have the
burden too having to go play and be focused on that.
But the two prior times Gene Afferman was on both trips.
One was a nineteen ninety six trip for Major League
Baseball All Star that we would go every other year,
and in that team we had Ky Ripken, we had
(02:36):
Barry Bonds and Roberto Allen. It was this phenomenal team
and a great experience. The second time we went back
was two thousand and four with the Yankees, and we
had a special sauce and that special sauce was Gene
Afferman because she was like our super Asian yet she
was kind of like lead counsel for us. And she
was also very close with Hideki Matsui, was very influential
from bringing he Deki Matsui to come to the Yankees,
(02:59):
who of course won the d VP when won the
Tighter in two thousand and nine against the Phillies. And
Gene Afferman was basically fun and center and she ran
point for basically both those trips, but especially for the
Yankees in two thousand and four when we opened against
the Race.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, and just incredible sort of what she's seen and
you know, some of what folks will hear that was
newer to me of course, or new to me, not
as new to you as some of the you know,
quite literal.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Inside baseball, what it's like inside.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I mean, truly the most iconic baseball franchise of all time,
led by the most iconic owner of all time, George Steinbrenner,
the Boss.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah, indeed. And you know, I had a really interesting
moment when my daughter Natasha, who was around you know,
call it seven years old, when she met Jean. She
was like, oh, that's nice. What does she do? And
I said, well, she works for the Yankees and she's
the assistant general manager of Brian Cashman. She goes, wait,
I'm confused, but she's a woman. Wow, And I said, no,
that's exactly right, Like you can do this one day too.
(03:58):
I mean, Gene Afferman is showing you and millions of
young ladies around the world that you two can do it.
So that's why I think someone like Gene Afferman is
not just that she's an executive. She was first an agent,
pivoted to being a top executive, one of the highest
top executives for the New York Yankees, and did it
flawlessly over two and a half three decades. And that's
(04:19):
why I feel that she has a place in Cooperstown.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Well, from your lips to Cooper's down's ears. We'll see
if that turns out to be true. And in the meantime,
I can say it is a highly enjoyable and pretty
insightful conversation coming up with Gene Afferman. So joining us
(04:44):
now is Gene Affman. She is the Yankees assistant general manager.
And I have to say, Gene, one of the real
benefits of working with Alex Rodriguez. There are many, but
one of them is he knows where the real power
is and that is the truth when it comes to you.
So I will start by asking you this, and I
(05:05):
asked this of all the folks who worked around the Yankees,
do you remember first meeting Alex Trader Guest?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Oh, I certainly do. I certainly do. And I didn't
mean to goffa.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
I wasn't goafawing at Alex because he does know where
all the power is.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
When I was defawing at you know that I'm the power.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
Actually, Alex, you and I met way back in the
last century. Was it ninety five or ninety six on
a plane across the Pacific.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Ocean too Japan?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Wow? Wow, Yes, I was, And.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
You were just a cult You were a wee baby.
You were sitting in back of me. I was Hideo
Nomo's guest.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
And do you remember it was the US Japan all.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Start, yeah, with the Ripken and Barry Bonds.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yes, was that your rookie season.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
It was right after my official rookie season in ninety six,
going to ninety seven. I believe so all the.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Like Piazza and Bonds and Ripken, they all were sitting.
It was a charter and they're all sitting in first
class and you had to sitting back with the schleppers
us when you were sitting writing back of me, I
think I was with Brian Gray, who was with it
major League Baseball. We had a great time. That was
an incredible trip. That's when I first met Alex Rodriguez.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
And so, Alex, what was your first impression of Gene?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
My first impression with Gene was was when I got
to the Yankees, and I knew of Gene of course before,
but I would I would say our friendship and our
professional relationship also started in two thousand and four when
I got there, and I quickly realized that every big
decision Gene would be right in the middle of it,
and whether it was like writing great documents. I mean
one of her head into gems is she's an amazing writer,
(06:37):
and she does most of the writing from the Yankees.
As I remember, she had a voice of reason. She
was always supportive, she wouldn't put up with any bs,
but she was always came from a loving place, and
anytime there was something important with the Yankees, I felt
like Jean was a voice of reason.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Well, my standard response to me, oh pshaw.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
So it's interesting that you mentioned Japan because incredibly timely
for what's going on in baseball right now.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
It was big back then.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
It has just blossomed into something that I'm maybe you
expected at the time, maybe you didn't, And maybe that's
where to start. You've seen this for a long time,
this connection between Major League Baseball and Japan, the sport
of baseball in Japan.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
What's the state of it now?
Speaker 5 (07:24):
Well, that's over thirty years ago. I keep thinking, you know,
way back in the last century. Over thirty years ago
was when Don Nomura, an incredible agent with whom I worked.
He's my comrade in arms, and we represented Hedeo Nomo together,
and then Alfonso Soriano and Hideki Rabu and we kind
of were sort of the steps along the way I
think to where we are now. And I know that
(07:46):
sounds arrogant, but those are my you know, my fighting days.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I love them. But you know.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Originally there was an agreement I think signed in nineteen
sixty seven. I think that effectively prohibited Japanese players from
coming to the United States. I mean players would go
over to Japan all the time, but no Japanese players.
Murkami came in the late sixties, but since then there
really hadn't been anybody. So Don and Ire began working
together because as a newly minted lawyer, when he told
(08:12):
me that there were no Japanese players allowed in the US,
I thought, well, that can't be legal.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So the way that.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
The Japanese rules and the US rules worked back then
was there were all these Swiss cheese holes in the
way they lined up, So we just like do what
we could to drive a mac truck through all those holes.
The first one was Nomo, and under the Yakyo kiyaku,
which is the Japanese rules, if a player voluntarily retires,
(08:40):
he can sign with a US club. So we voluntarily
retired Nomo and he came over here, and there really
wasn't that much of an uproar over it. The Japanese
Commissioner's office didn't really fight us, and the US Commissioner's
office didn't really fight us because nobody thought Japanese.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Players would have any success over here.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
So they thought, oh, well, Nomo will come over here,
there'll be a little distraction, and then he'll just go
right back to Japan. And then, of course Nomo was
phenomenal here, and so then, Alex, you know this, Once
there's success with either a Japanese pitcher or a Cuban pitcher,
the pendulum swings and everybody thinks that every single Japanese
player is going to be Nomo. So other players wanted
(09:21):
to come to the United States. And after Nomo, they
changed the rules so that you couldn't do that.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And the way you could do it under their rules
was Soriano, who Alex knew. Soriano could go.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
To salary arbitration lose his salary arbitration in Japan because
their rules at that time were like US rules from
the forties. The arbitration would be heard by the commissioner
and the two presidents of the league, and if the
player lost and didn't accept the salary that was offered,
they would voluntarily retire him as a punitive measure. It
(09:55):
was a punishment for not accepting the salary. So we
went to salary arbitration. We asked for a very reasonable amount.
Of course, we lost, and then we said not going
to accept the salary, and sure enough, boom, they voluntarily
retired him.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So that's how he came.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Over, So Jane, thinking about how integral and how closely
you worked with Hideki to get him over to New York.
Obviously an integral part of our championship team in two
thousand and nine he won the world title. What was
it specifically when you first met Hideki, probably back in
Japan that made you think that he had the talent
and he also had the maturity to play in New
(10:36):
York because you know it's different in New York, and
then basically the poise to do what he did. Was
there anything that stood out to you from his character?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Just did her out?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Briefly for those of us who aren't on a first
name basis, we're talking about Hitdeki Metsui.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Just for everyone out there, sorry.
Speaker 5 (10:51):
There also was Hideki Rabu, who was the start of
the posting system. But actually Matsui I didn't meet him,
but he is one of the reasons why I actually
got started in US Japanese baseball. When I was over
there on an unrelated case, Don took me to a
Yumiri Giants baseball game, and I think that was Matsui's
(11:12):
probably his rookie year, and there was I still remember
standing at the plate stick straight up alex As you remember,
the stick was always straight up and boom, And that's
where I said to Don, how come there aren't more
Japanese players playing here? And with Matsui, he waited the
ten years that they wait for free agency in Japan.
So I waited the ten years and the Yumiri Giants
(11:34):
were I mean, they say the Yankees of Japan huge,
absolutely huge, And Tokyo is just like New York. It's
a huge market, and the Yomurri Shimbun is the paper there.
They have the largest distribution in all of Asia. So
he was used to it. He was used to New York,
he was used to the pressure, he was used to
playing on a championship team, and he had he had
(11:57):
the skills. So I mean, the minute you saw him,
you just new and also I had heard that Babe
Ruth had been his favorite player, so I thought we
had a chance.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
You leaned into that.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Alex, what do you I mean, what do you remember
about Matsui? I mean, you know, as you say, that
was transformational. I mean, Mattsui is obviously transformative to the
baseball of the team, but I would think, and Alex,
I'll start with you, he's also transformative to the business
and the fan base and every like. It globalizes the
Yankees even more. Could you feel that as a player out?
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Oh, there's no question about it. Jason. Look, I mean
before I answer that, let me back up a little bit,
because for our listeners, baseball in Japan is huge. And
what I mean by huge is think about American football
here times five.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
It's almost like a monopoly in sports. It is a religion.
They take it very, very seriously. I was just there
a few months ago in Japan, and I could not
believe how much buzz there is Ronald Tani, the Yankees,
the Dodgers, the Cubs. Going there of course with the Cubs.
But Jason, answer your question about DECI I learned there
so much from him. He was so disciplined, absolutely like
(13:07):
so consistent with his personality. And then one thing that's
unusual for our listeners to know. He was more like
an American. He was really big. He was large, He
had big, big shoulders, he had strong hands. And usually
what we've come accustomed to Japanese players back in the
day was a little bit smaller middle endfielder, a little
bit more like each row right, each row, And here
comes to Deki Matu. He was favorite players, you know,
(13:30):
the great Babe Ruth and the rest is history. And
I'll tell you in two thousand and nine he was
so good. I'll never forget Gene. I never told you this.
Right before Game six, we're sitting in the training room,
about an hour before the game, Andy pettit's on the mound.
We need one more win to be World champions. And
I wasn't seeing the ball very well off Page Martinez.
(13:51):
And it's about an hour before the game, and I
have Jeene taping my ankles and he's taeping his ankles
Stevie Donald, he was taping his ankles or two trainers
with the Yankees, And I said, what's your game plan? Mantsoui,
And he says, I have a good game plan. I said,
I don't I don't see the ball very well off
Pedro Martinez. I said, how do you see it? He says,
I see it really, really large. And it was at
(14:14):
that moment that I changed my game plan to say,
Matsui's behind me, he sees the ball. Great, I don't
see the ball well, off Pedro. What I'm going to
do is I'm going to be as patient as possible
and try to pass the baton to the guy who
sees the ball really well. And sure enough, I think
I walked three times, score three runs, and twice from
Matsui on a home run in a double wow, and
(14:34):
the rest is history.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
Can I just say that, Alex, you played a pretty
big part in getting that two thousand and nine World Series,
So you know, I, just as you're saying he was
a big part of it, you are an extremely large
part of.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
That as well.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So thank you, and so Jane, this has been sort
of written about it and talked about obviously of late
with Joheotani tell us about what Japan means to the
global business of baseball, what it means to the Yankees.
It feels massively influential financially you would understand that better
(15:11):
than anyone, so so help us frame it.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
I think two things about Nomo.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
When he first came, remember that was just right after
the ninety four strike, when fans were disgusted with baseball.
They were disgusted with the owners, discussed with the players,
they wanted nothing to do with anything. And I really
feel that Nomo brought fans back into the ballpark. And
then the other thing is that I think that Nomo
actually made Major League Baseball international because before then, I know, Alex,
(15:39):
you were just a wee baby. You may not remember this,
but before then international there really wasn't any international. I mean,
obviously clubs were very active in the Dominican Republic, but
there really wasn't broadcasting and merchandising. And as Alex said,
baseball is huge in Japan, I mean absolutely huge. So
(15:59):
when he came to the Dodgers, I mean, oh my god,
the Dodgers were just I mean the amount of money
he was making for them, and for Major League Baseball International,
they just had to bring it in wheelbarrows. So they
are very supportive of their players. Initially not so much.
Initially they feel that when they come over here, they're
portraying the pump professional baseball and abandoning baseball there. But
(16:22):
once they come here, they have so much success. It's
like carrying the pride of Japan on their shoulders. And obviously,
you know, sponsorships come with that, broadcasting comes with that,
and then other young Japanese players.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
See this and dream of playing in the major leagues.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
And so it's expanded the market dramatically for broadcasting. And
I think it's great for the game. I mean, international
baseball is great for the game of baseball.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And what about for the Yankees. I mean, the Yankees
are a massive brand. They're one of the most valuable
teams on the planet in any sport. But how do
you take advantage of that? I mean, this is part
of your remit as I understand, is like understanding how
the Yankees brand and how the Yankee business can work
across Asia.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Right.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Well, I'm not in the sponsorship and marketing department, but
but you know, we had all kinds of ideas at
the time of how to exploit is.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Such a bad take advantage of.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Connotation, but the good side of exploit.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
We had all kinds of ideas of how to exploit
this you know we're going to do streaming right after
the game. The sheer demand for access to Matsui and
the Yankees was enormous. And in two thousand and four, Alex,
you were on that trip.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Ruh, Yes, yeah, we played the Rays, I believe.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Yes, we played the Rays to open the season in Japan,
and I mean the fans were crazy and they were
just crazy. They would drive up on the sidewalk, you know,
to get to our superstars and that was a great trip.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
So, Geen, I want to transition to the late George Steinbrenner,
which both you and I have an incredible admiration for him.
And to think that he bought this franchise for ten
point seven million dollars in nineteen seventy three, I believe
from ABC is wild. He did something that was not
so popular at the time, putting someone like yourself in
(18:23):
a very powerful position. And Susan Waldman, I mean incredible
for him to do that ahead of his time. What
have you learned? What did you learn from George Steinberner
and what lessons do you still apply that you have
today that you carry on?
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Oh wow, Well remember George and Brian Cashman, also Kim
ang was my predecessor's. So the only owner and general
manager in all of professional sports have not one, but
two female assistant general managers. And I always tell people,
and Alex, you probably probably say the same thing. Everything
good and everything bad. You ever heard about mister Steinberger,
It's all true. No, he was larger than life. He
(19:02):
was legendary. He was he should be in the Hall
of Fame, extraordinarily disciplined. You know, it was all about
the team. The players had to have everything. And I
think Alex, I don't know if you remember when it
was raining, he would get really pissed off at Robbie Kakuza,
the clubhouse manager, because you wanted every player to have
a little cloth to wipe their bat off with, and
(19:24):
if there was a rain delay, there should be mattresses
in the clubhouse. You know, it was all for the players.
I think he was the first owner to provide omelets,
you know, for Sunday brunch for all the players.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
But I think what I learned from him is always
be prepared. I mean we would go into meetings.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
And he had an unerring sense of what you didn't know,
so you'd go in prepared for the meeting and then
he'd ask you that one thing, that one thing that
you didn't know. But early on I learned that I
would say, I don't I don't know that. I don't
have the answer to that, but I will go and
get the answer and come back. Yeah, before I came
(20:04):
to the Yankees, i'd call him George. When I came
to the Yankees, I'd call him mister Steinbrenner. So he said,
whenever anybody's.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
But I never call him the boss because that's Bruce Springsteen.
I just want to make that.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
You know, a lot of the old timers at the Yankees,
you know we miss him.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
At the time, we didn't and Gene along the same lines,
I'll never forget in the World Series when he went
into the Shay Stadium and said this furniture is not
good enough and he literally had Robbie Gokuza change it.
Oh yeah, it was unbelievable. But one quick question on
what is the biggest difference. I think how has done
(20:40):
an extraordinary job with what he's doing today and the
resources spending and the commitment level, just like George. What
would you say is the difference between George versus How
For our listeners.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Well, part of it you hit on listening.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Hal is a rational, reasonable, smart man who it's kind
of ironic because if he doesn't know the answer or
the subject matter, he will learn it.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
He goes to the players, talks with.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
Them, asks their opinion, ask the opinion of everybody in
the organization. Hal is a I would say, a very
enlightened leader, whereas George was more slightly dictator ish.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
We love that.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Because you know what you were getting. Yeah, and it's generational.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
You know. Hal's a different kind of leader. He's a
I mean, George would be out of this would not
be his time period. Some of the things he said
and did, Oh my lord, there would be so many lawsuits, but.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Fair to say. And talked to us about Brian Cashman.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I mean, this is a partnership that you've been involved
in for you know, now multiple decades. He obviously has
a probably as high a profile, if not higher, than
just about anyone in the business of baseball, maybe even
across sports. He is extremely well known. Talk to us
about your partnership with him, And I know Alex sort
(22:04):
of witnessed it, but I'm curious how you see it.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
I had met.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
Brian when I was representing players and we got along.
We got along, and then when he asked me to
be his assistant general manager, I thought I'd be there
for a couple of years. My first contract was two
years plus a club option. I thought I'd be right
back in California after that. But Brian is remarkable. I mean,
people say, the hardest job, you know, is being the
general manager of the New York Yankees. And they asked him, like,
(22:30):
what's the hardest job you ever had or what's the
messiest job? And he said, well, you know, cleaning out
horse stalls in Kentucky is much messier than being the
general manager of the New York Yankees. But Alex, you
know this, I'm being a Yankee is different than being
any as a player, as you know, a coach as
a general manager, and he's had to, you know, put
(22:52):
together these teams for wow, twenty five thirty years, and
it's not always the money that's the thing. And even
if you do have a large paycheck, you've got to
spend it wisely and you have to have the depth
to be able to get through a season.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
And he's just remarkable.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
He's very even keeled, great sense that Alex knows this
great sense of humor, doesn't get flustered like Hal. He's
a big listener, gets the advice of everybody in the organization.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And I think that's why he's lasted so long. Is
it's that.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
And he also, you know it doesn't really have a
very big ego. Is also the key.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
It's it's really a team effort for him.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Yeah, Geene Brian Cashman has a lot of qualities. One
of them is very tough, and you have to be right.
You have to be thick skin to play in a
market like New York, where yeah, you may have a
lot of resources, but the scrutiny is brighter, the lights
are brighter, and the expectations are much higher. But in
two thousand and nine, I don't know if it was
May where we were maybe May June. We were kind
(23:50):
of a little bit of a funk and that team
didn't get in a lot of funks. But it was
early and we weren't playing well, and he flew into Atlanta.
We had a players only meeting with Cashman. I think
he was gonna scream at us. He didn't scream at us.
He was constructive. He said, guys, we got to get
better this that the other thing which I don't want
to share here. And from that day on we played
(24:12):
almost seven to fifty baseball and obviously went on to
win the world title. So for me, that was a
great sign of not only high level what you have
with what he has to do with George and how
on the finance side, but the personality and the eq
to go into a room of twenty five players and
tell us exactly how it is. I think that was
a big reason why we won the title in two
(24:34):
thousand and nine.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
I agree. I think you also hit on something. He
always says, you run towards a problem. You don't avoid it,
run towards it. And I always joke with him that
he doesn't really have a bedside manner with players. Sometimes
I refer to players as gardens that need tending. You know,
you have to have sometimes a light that's not him.
He knew will just and that probably in the meeting he's.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Just no bod right.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
He will sit down with the player, and every player
knows that I'm not.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Gonna lie to you, I'm not going to bolk at you.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
I'm going to I'm going to look you in the
eye I'm going to tell you the truth. And there
were so many times when George would tell him, you
go down there, you scream at those players, you've cut
the money, you whatever you need to do, and he would,
you know, not his head, and then he would go
he wouldn't do that, he would go down he'd have
a notebook conversation. I always worry whenever I do an
interview and people go, oh, how refreshing, You're so authentic.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I've just embarrassed my mother.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
And so Jean, Alex and I are always I think
one of the many things we share an interest in
is how people manage their careers. And you know, you
talked about how how Brian has done it? How have
you done it? You know, I mean having this long
of a tenure at a single organization, and listen, many
people would look and say, it's a dream job.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
It's a hard job.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
You're at the highest level at you know, one of
the most you know, dominant, historic, high expectation organizations in
the world. How have you managed it? And and how
do you how do you manage a career like that?
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Well? I I you know, and once again I'm not
I'm not saying this out of any arrogance. But I
always want little girls and little boys to see that
there are women in these positions in baseball, because if
you see it, then you can imagine yourself there.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So when I.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Represented players, I was told that I was the only
certified player agent, you know, certified by the MLBPA at
the time. And then I was the third woman assistant GM,
and for period of time I was the only one,
and then my very good friend Miquel Ferreira, my brother
I call her, became the assistant GM at the Red Sox.
Now there are other women assistant gms. But I was
(26:36):
lucky to be at the right place at the right time.
So starting in Japanese baseball was just I just happened
to be there. And I was lucky to work with
Dona Mora. I was lucky to work with Gene Orza Alex.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
You remember Jean.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
He's just an incredible He was the general counsel of
the of the PA and just an incredible smart man,
and he kind of took us under his wing. So
lucky to work with and for Brian Cashman and George Steinbrenner.
So part of it is part of it's me, but
part of it's also working with people who can recognize
(27:08):
your talent or what you can do, and who allow
you to to be your most skilled. It's like, Alex,
It's like it's like where you where you're most.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Comfortable in the batting order. You just you know, you want.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
People have to give you the opportunity to do your
best stuff. And I was lucky that I had people
giving me the opportunity to do.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
My best stuff.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Geene, I want to I want to press you on
one element and almost based on what you said earlier
in the conversation, press you and maybe even correct you. Sorry,
you know, because you said, you know you're at the
right place at the right time with the Japanese baseball piece.
But based on what you said earlier, it sounds like
that was an opportunity that could be identified by other people.
But then you did it, and that does seem to
(27:53):
be a difference. You know that you said, Okay, we're
going to identify these loopholes and then we're going to
figure out what they are going to take advantage of them,
and then when they move, we're going to try to
So I mean, I dare say I feel like maybe
you're not giving yourself enough credit for I mean, that
was pioneering and revolutionary at the time and really changed
the game, right, I'm not.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Using any false modesty. I mean I was also lucky
that I worked with players Nomo and sorran Oni Rabu
who really like they put their lives on the line.
They could have been out of baseball pumping gas, you know,
just their careers could have been over, and they trusted
Don and I and I mean, I love the challenge.
The challenge was amazing, and we really felt that we
(28:34):
were doing something important and it was our version of
baseball civil rights, you know, and it was really exciting.
And I was probably I wasn't that young, but I
was probably you know, I just had the blinders on
and I just felt we're doing the right thing and
we can't fail.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
But I still think I've just been really lucky, really mucky.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Jane, You've been really lucky, but you've been really really
good and you're great at your job. I guess I
have a two part question for you. One, as a
young woman in the world of sports, there weren't a
lot of women in the world of sports. A lot
of times, many times you were the only woman in
the room, which is incredible. But I guess, did you
ever have any imposter syndrome? And what do you think
(29:16):
is your superpower?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I still have imposter syndrome. I still have imposter syndrome.
As a matter of fact, memory is.
Speaker 5 (29:23):
Such a funny thing, you know, it's probably the most
unreliable thing we have.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
So in order to prepare for this podcast, I actually
went back and.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
Reviewed reviewed everything that I'd done, and I looked up
the rules and the posting system and all that, you know,
because I figured people are going to listen and go, wow,
she doesn't know what the she's talking about. But I
did have imposter syndrome a lot. I didn't as a
player representative, and I always enjoyed working with players, never
(29:50):
had any you know, discrimination from players on the club side.
A little bit more maybe, but I was constantly, you know,
carrying around the basic Agreement and the Major League rules
with me and you know, flipping through it on whenever
I could. And if you are the only one in
the room, and sometimes I probably said things, you know,
(30:12):
just to shock people.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
And what is your super power? I know you're trying
to avoid, Oh, my superpower?
Speaker 5 (30:17):
I guess my superpower is over the years, and as
a player, you have to do this. I developed a
thicker and thicker and thicker skin, and I think, I
hope one of my superpowers is.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
That I care so damn much. I just care about
my job.
Speaker 5 (30:32):
I'm doing well every single day, and I live in
fear and dread even now, thirty something years later, that
on any.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Given day, well, Jeane, you're not. You're doing a terrible
job of talking about your super power. So I'll do
it for you. O God, you do not no, honestly,
like we were together for you know, parts of fifteen years,
maybe a little bit more. And I watched your career.
I studied your career through thick and thin. You're always
fair and you're always honest, and in many ways you
(31:04):
have been a role model to me because you always
handled yourself in such a regal manner. And I come
from a single mother, and watching you, I can just
see my mother up there and be the only woman
in the room. I just think is an extraordinary thing.
And I know, I know there there'll be hundreds, if
not thousands of young women that will look at you
(31:24):
as a role model and will study your career.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
Alex, thank you so much. That's a really lovely thing
to say. I'm going to need a recording of this.
I'm gonna play it every morning, Good morning before I
start my day.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Your affirmation. All right, So we're gonna move to our
lightning round. This is just five questions. We're gonna do
it real quick. Alex now bounced back and forth and
(31:55):
just you know, say whatever jumps into your mind.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
All right, you ready?
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Oh god, Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
What's the best piece of advice you've ever received on
deal making or business?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
No substitute for the written word.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
What's your dream deal making partner?
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Well, Brian Cashman, what's the most nervous you've ever been?
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I can't say now right now.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
The most nervous I've ever been? You know what the
first time I walked into court when I was litigating.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
What's your hype song before a big meeting or negotiation?
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Dammit, dammit.
Speaker 5 (32:25):
It's an Australian band and I can never think of
the name. But it's an Australian band. It's an Australian band.
I can't think of the name though.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yeah, how does it go? Sing it?
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (32:35):
I can't behind it.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I do have a I mean I have a quote.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I have a quote, that's my right that.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
I have two quotes that I always say, and they're
from Lady Macbeth, who's.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Not really a role model for anybody. But one is
that if you screw your courage.
Speaker 5 (32:52):
To the sticking post, you can't fail. And the other,
which actually isn't from Lady Macbeth, but I used to
tell myself turn your blood to ice.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And your blood to ice. Turn your blood to ice,
and then walk in. My mother taught me something.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
She said, whenever you walk into a meeting, you have
to tell yourself, you know these affirmations, I'm smart, I'm this,
I'm that, and then your last your last word to
yourself is and I have a secret.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
So if you walk in and I have a secret,
everybody just is like, what is what is going on there?
What is happening there?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
WHOA that is really good?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
I have a secret.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
That's really good.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
All right?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
So what's your advice for someone listening who wants a
career like yours, which is unmatched?
Speaker 1 (33:38):
You know what? And then, once again I hope this
doesn't sound sappy.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
Education, education, education, and put the blinders on, do the work,
do it well.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Don't let anybody tell you you can't do it, and
just you know, move forward. You can do anything if
you use your mind.
Speaker 5 (33:55):
And I realized that that may be disingenuous because a
lot of people don't have an opportunity for an education,
and a lot of people don't have, you know, opportunities
come their way. But I would say that that even
if you're not going to get paid, which I wasn't
paid early in my baseball career, whatever you can do,
if a job comes your way, take it and then
make yourself indispensable.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
That's really good.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Well, I have to say there have been a lot
of text flying back and forth between me and Alex
in anticipation of this one, Gene, and you really delivered
and then some so thank you so much for spending
some time with us.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
It was a real treat to see the two of
you chop it up.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
Thank you, Gene.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I'm so honored that you asked me. I'm so honored,
and Alex. It's great to be working together again, the
same team again.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
I know.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
I'm so happy. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Thanks a lot, gentlemen, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
The Deal is hosted by Alex Rodriguez and me Jason
Kelly This episode was made by Annamasarekus, Stacey Wong, and
Lizzie Phillip. Amy Keene is our editor. Music is made
by Blake Maples. Our executive producers are Kelly Leferrier, Ashley Hoenig,
and Brenda Nonham. Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.
Additional support from Rachel Carnivale and Elena sos Angeles. Thanks
(35:14):
so much for listening to the deal. If you have
a minute, subscribe, rate and review our show. It'll help
other listeners find us. I'm Jason Kelly. See you next week.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi everyone, welcome to the deal. I'm your host, Jason
Kelly longside my partner Alex Rodriguez.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
All right, Alex, we're gonna talk some baseball.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I have to say, this has been a really fun
early twenty twenty five, you know, so to spring up
twenty twenty five. I feel like we're diving into baseball
in a really meaningful way, which kind of makes sense
since you played the game pretty well. But one of
the great things about the show is the access that
you bring to some people who might be a little
(00:41):
less known but are incredibly important. Gene Aferman is one
of those people, assistant general manager for the Yankees. Help
us understand before we get into the conversation who she is.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Well, first of all, what I think she's a person
that should be in the Hall of Fame. And I
say that because she's been assistant general manager to Brian
Cashman for over twenty plus years. And you know, give
credit to the late George Steinbernner for bringing in a
strong woman who's a lawyer, an incredible asset to the
(01:13):
New York Yankees. And this episode, Jason was special to
me because I'm so close to Jean and we've been
through so much highs and lows, and she was always
the voice of reason in that organization. And while she
never put up with any bs, she was always like
so transparent and so honest, And so you will hear
(01:33):
that in our episode.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Oh take no prisoners for sure.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
One of the interesting things about her, and one of
the really timely elements to this is back in the nineties,
she was really early on in identifying the potential for
the business of baseball in Japan. We now take that
pretty much for granted. We have a generational player that
we're all getting to watch in Shohyo Tani. She was
(01:57):
on that story law long long ago, and I feel
like given some of your experience as a player, some
of your more recent experience as a businessman, you appreciate
sort of this nexus of baseball in Japan.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
You were just there not too long ago, right, a
few months back.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
I was. I was there and it was my third
time in Japan, and it was the time that I
actually enjoyed it the most because I didn't have the
burden too having to go play and be focused on that.
But the two prior times Gene Afferman was on both trips.
One was a nineteen ninety six trip for Major League
Baseball All Star that we would go every other year,
and in that team we had Ky Ripken, we had
(02:36):
Barry Bonds and Roberto Allen. It was this phenomenal team
and a great experience. The second time we went back
was two thousand and four with the Yankees, and we
had a special sauce and that special sauce was Gene
Afferman because she was like our super Asian yet she
was kind of like lead counsel for us. And she
was also very close with Hideki Matsui, was very influential
from bringing he Deki Matsui to come to the Yankees,
(02:59):
who of course won the d VP when won the
Tighter in two thousand and nine against the Phillies. And
Gene Afferman was basically fun and center and she ran
point for basically both those trips, but especially for the
Yankees in two thousand and four when we opened against
the Race.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, and just incredible sort of what she's seen and
you know, some of what folks will hear that was
newer to me of course, or new to me, not
as new to you as some of the you know,
quite literal.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Inside baseball, what it's like inside.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I mean, truly the most iconic baseball franchise of all time,
led by the most iconic owner of all time, George Steinbrenner,
the Boss.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah, indeed. And you know, I had a really interesting
moment when my daughter Natasha, who was around you know,
call it seven years old, when she met Jean. She
was like, oh, that's nice. What does she do? And
I said, well, she works for the Yankees and she's
the assistant general manager of Brian Cashman. She goes, wait,
I'm confused, but she's a woman. Wow, And I said, no,
that's exactly right, Like you can do this one day too.
(03:58):
I mean, Gene Afferman is showing you and millions of
young ladies around the world that you two can do it.
So that's why I think someone like Gene Afferman is
not just that she's an executive. She was first an agent,
pivoted to being a top executive, one of the highest
top executives for the New York Yankees, and did it
flawlessly over two and a half three decades. And that's
(04:19):
why I feel that she has a place in Cooperstown.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Well, from your lips to Cooper's down's ears. We'll see
if that turns out to be true. And in the meantime,
I can say it is a highly enjoyable and pretty
insightful conversation coming up with Gene Afferman. So joining us
(04:44):
now is Gene Affman. She is the Yankees assistant general manager.
And I have to say, Gene, one of the real
benefits of working with Alex Rodriguez. There are many, but
one of them is he knows where the real power
is and that is the truth when it comes to you.
So I will start by asking you this, and I
(05:05):
asked this of all the folks who worked around the Yankees,
do you remember first meeting Alex Trader Guest?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Oh, I certainly do. I certainly do. And I didn't
mean to goffa.
Speaker 5 (05:14):
I wasn't goafawing at Alex because he does know where
all the power is.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
When I was defawing at you know that I'm the power.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
Actually, Alex, you and I met way back in the
last century. Was it ninety five or ninety six on
a plane across the Pacific.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Ocean too Japan?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Wow? Wow, Yes, I was, And.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
You were just a cult You were a wee baby.
You were sitting in back of me. I was Hideo
Nomo's guest.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
And do you remember it was the US Japan all.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Start, yeah, with the Ripken and Barry Bonds.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yes, was that your rookie season.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
It was right after my official rookie season in ninety six,
going to ninety seven. I believe so all the.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Like Piazza and Bonds and Ripken, they all were sitting.
It was a charter and they're all sitting in first
class and you had to sitting back with the schleppers
us when you were sitting writing back of me, I
think I was with Brian Gray, who was with it
major League Baseball. We had a great time. That was
an incredible trip. That's when I first met Alex Rodriguez.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
And so, Alex, what was your first impression of Gene?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
My first impression with Gene was was when I got
to the Yankees, and I knew of Gene of course before,
but I would I would say our friendship and our
professional relationship also started in two thousand and four when
I got there, and I quickly realized that every big
decision Gene would be right in the middle of it,
and whether it was like writing great documents. I mean
one of her head into gems is she's an amazing writer,
(06:37):
and she does most of the writing from the Yankees.
As I remember, she had a voice of reason. She
was always supportive, she wouldn't put up with any bs,
but she was always came from a loving place, and
anytime there was something important with the Yankees, I felt
like Jean was a voice of reason.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Well, my standard response to me, oh pshaw.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
So it's interesting that you mentioned Japan because incredibly timely
for what's going on in baseball right now.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
It was big back then.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
It has just blossomed into something that I'm maybe you
expected at the time, maybe you didn't, And maybe that's
where to start. You've seen this for a long time,
this connection between Major League Baseball and Japan, the sport
of baseball in Japan.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
What's the state of it now?
Speaker 5 (07:24):
Well, that's over thirty years ago. I keep thinking, you know,
way back in the last century. Over thirty years ago
was when Don Nomura, an incredible agent with whom I worked.
He's my comrade in arms, and we represented Hedeo Nomo together,
and then Alfonso Soriano and Hideki Rabu and we kind
of were sort of the steps along the way I
think to where we are now. And I know that
(07:46):
sounds arrogant, but those are my you know, my fighting days.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I love them. But you know.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Originally there was an agreement I think signed in nineteen
sixty seven. I think that effectively prohibited Japanese players from
coming to the United States. I mean players would go
over to Japan all the time, but no Japanese players.
Murkami came in the late sixties, but since then there
really hadn't been anybody. So Don and Ire began working
together because as a newly minted lawyer, when he told
(08:12):
me that there were no Japanese players allowed in the US,
I thought, well, that can't be legal.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So the way that.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
The Japanese rules and the US rules worked back then
was there were all these Swiss cheese holes in the
way they lined up, So we just like do what
we could to drive a mac truck through all those holes.
The first one was Nomo, and under the Yakyo kiyaku,
which is the Japanese rules, if a player voluntarily retires,
(08:40):
he can sign with a US club. So we voluntarily
retired Nomo and he came over here, and there really
wasn't that much of an uproar over it. The Japanese
Commissioner's office didn't really fight us, and the US Commissioner's
office didn't really fight us because nobody thought Japanese.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Players would have any success over here.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
So they thought, oh, well, Nomo will come over here,
there'll be a little distraction, and then he'll just go
right back to Japan. And then, of course Nomo was
phenomenal here, and so then, Alex, you know this, Once
there's success with either a Japanese pitcher or a Cuban pitcher,
the pendulum swings and everybody thinks that every single Japanese
player is going to be Nomo. So other players wanted
(09:21):
to come to the United States. And after Nomo, they
changed the rules so that you couldn't do that.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
And the way you could do it under their rules
was Soriano, who Alex knew. Soriano could go.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
To salary arbitration lose his salary arbitration in Japan because
their rules at that time were like US rules from
the forties. The arbitration would be heard by the commissioner
and the two presidents of the league, and if the
player lost and didn't accept the salary that was offered,
they would voluntarily retire him as a punitive measure. It
(09:55):
was a punishment for not accepting the salary. So we
went to salary arbitration. We asked for a very reasonable amount.
Of course, we lost, and then we said not going
to accept the salary, and sure enough, boom, they voluntarily
retired him.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So that's how he came.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
Over, So Jane, thinking about how integral and how closely
you worked with Hideki to get him over to New York.
Obviously an integral part of our championship team in two
thousand and nine he won the world title. What was
it specifically when you first met Hideki, probably back in
Japan that made you think that he had the talent
and he also had the maturity to play in New
(10:36):
York because you know it's different in New York, and
then basically the poise to do what he did. Was
there anything that stood out to you from his character?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Just did her out?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Briefly for those of us who aren't on a first
name basis, we're talking about Hitdeki Metsui.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Just for everyone out there, sorry.
Speaker 5 (10:51):
There also was Hideki Rabu, who was the start of
the posting system. But actually Matsui I didn't meet him,
but he is one of the reasons why I actually
got started in US Japanese baseball. When I was over
there on an unrelated case, Don took me to a
Yumiri Giants baseball game, and I think that was Matsui's
(11:12):
probably his rookie year, and there was I still remember
standing at the plate stick straight up alex As you remember,
the stick was always straight up and boom, And that's
where I said to Don, how come there aren't more
Japanese players playing here? And with Matsui, he waited the
ten years that they wait for free agency in Japan.
So I waited the ten years and the Yumiri Giants
(11:34):
were I mean, they say the Yankees of Japan huge,
absolutely huge, And Tokyo is just like New York. It's
a huge market, and the Yomurri Shimbun is the paper there.
They have the largest distribution in all of Asia. So
he was used to it. He was used to New York,
he was used to the pressure, he was used to
playing on a championship team, and he had he had
(11:57):
the skills. So I mean, the minute you saw him,
you just new and also I had heard that Babe
Ruth had been his favorite player, so I thought we
had a chance.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
You leaned into that.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Alex, what do you I mean, what do you remember
about Matsui? I mean, you know, as you say, that
was transformational. I mean, Mattsui is obviously transformative to the
baseball of the team, but I would think, and Alex,
I'll start with you, he's also transformative to the business
and the fan base and every like. It globalizes the
Yankees even more. Could you feel that as a player out?
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Oh, there's no question about it. Jason. Look, I mean
before I answer that, let me back up a little bit,
because for our listeners, baseball in Japan is huge. And
what I mean by huge is think about American football
here times five.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
It's almost like a monopoly in sports. It is a religion.
They take it very, very seriously. I was just there
a few months ago in Japan, and I could not
believe how much buzz there is Ronald Tani, the Yankees,
the Dodgers, the Cubs. Going there of course with the Cubs.
But Jason, answer your question about DECI I learned there
so much from him. He was so disciplined, absolutely like
(13:07):
so consistent with his personality. And then one thing that's
unusual for our listeners to know. He was more like
an American. He was really big. He was large, He
had big, big shoulders, he had strong hands. And usually
what we've come accustomed to Japanese players back in the
day was a little bit smaller middle endfielder, a little
bit more like each row right, each row, And here
comes to Deki Matu. He was favorite players, you know,
(13:30):
the great Babe Ruth and the rest is history. And
I'll tell you in two thousand and nine he was
so good. I'll never forget Gene. I never told you this.
Right before Game six, we're sitting in the training room,
about an hour before the game, Andy pettit's on the mound.
We need one more win to be World champions. And
I wasn't seeing the ball very well off Page Martinez.
(13:51):
And it's about an hour before the game, and I
have Jeene taping my ankles and he's taeping his ankles
Stevie Donald, he was taping his ankles or two trainers
with the Yankees, And I said, what's your game plan? Mantsoui,
And he says, I have a good game plan. I said,
I don't I don't see the ball very well off
Pedro Martinez. I said, how do you see it? He says,
I see it really, really large. And it was at
(14:14):
that moment that I changed my game plan to say,
Matsui's behind me, he sees the ball. Great, I don't
see the ball well, off Pedro. What I'm going to
do is I'm going to be as patient as possible
and try to pass the baton to the guy who
sees the ball really well. And sure enough, I think
I walked three times, score three runs, and twice from
Matsui on a home run in a double wow, and
(14:34):
the rest is history.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
Can I just say that, Alex, you played a pretty
big part in getting that two thousand and nine World Series,
So you know, I, just as you're saying he was
a big part of it, you are an extremely large
part of.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
That as well.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So thank you, and so Jane, this has been sort
of written about it and talked about obviously of late
with Joheotani tell us about what Japan means to the
global business of baseball, what it means to the Yankees.
It feels massively influential financially you would understand that better
(15:11):
than anyone, so so help us frame it.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
I think two things about Nomo.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
When he first came, remember that was just right after
the ninety four strike, when fans were disgusted with baseball.
They were disgusted with the owners, discussed with the players,
they wanted nothing to do with anything. And I really
feel that Nomo brought fans back into the ballpark. And
then the other thing is that I think that Nomo
actually made Major League Baseball international because before then, I know, Alex,
(15:39):
you were just a wee baby. You may not remember this,
but before then international there really wasn't any international. I mean,
obviously clubs were very active in the Dominican Republic, but
there really wasn't broadcasting and merchandising. And as Alex said,
baseball is huge in Japan, I mean absolutely huge. So
(15:59):
when he came to the Dodgers, I mean, oh my god,
the Dodgers were just I mean the amount of money
he was making for them, and for Major League Baseball International,
they just had to bring it in wheelbarrows. So they
are very supportive of their players. Initially not so much.
Initially they feel that when they come over here, they're
portraying the pump professional baseball and abandoning baseball there. But
(16:22):
once they come here, they have so much success. It's
like carrying the pride of Japan on their shoulders. And obviously,
you know, sponsorships come with that, broadcasting comes with that,
and then other young Japanese players.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
See this and dream of playing in the major leagues.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
And so it's expanded the market dramatically for broadcasting. And
I think it's great for the game. I mean, international
baseball is great for the game of baseball.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And what about for the Yankees. I mean, the Yankees
are a massive brand. They're one of the most valuable
teams on the planet in any sport. But how do
you take advantage of that? I mean, this is part
of your remit as I understand, is like understanding how
the Yankees brand and how the Yankee business can work
across Asia.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Right.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Well, I'm not in the sponsorship and marketing department, but
but you know, we had all kinds of ideas at
the time of how to exploit is.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Such a bad take advantage of.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Connotation, but the good side of exploit.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
We had all kinds of ideas of how to exploit
this you know we're going to do streaming right after
the game. The sheer demand for access to Matsui and
the Yankees was enormous. And in two thousand and four, Alex,
you were on that trip.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Ruh, Yes, yeah, we played the Rays, I believe.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Yes, we played the Rays to open the season in Japan,
and I mean the fans were crazy and they were
just crazy. They would drive up on the sidewalk, you know,
to get to our superstars and that was a great trip.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
So, Geen, I want to transition to the late George Steinbrenner,
which both you and I have an incredible admiration for him.
And to think that he bought this franchise for ten
point seven million dollars in nineteen seventy three, I believe
from ABC is wild. He did something that was not
so popular at the time, putting someone like yourself in
(18:23):
a very powerful position. And Susan Waldman, I mean incredible
for him to do that ahead of his time. What
have you learned? What did you learn from George Steinberner
and what lessons do you still apply that you have
today that you carry on?
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Oh wow, Well remember George and Brian Cashman, also Kim
ang was my predecessor's. So the only owner and general
manager in all of professional sports have not one, but
two female assistant general managers. And I always tell people,
and Alex, you probably probably say the same thing. Everything
good and everything bad. You ever heard about mister Steinberger,
It's all true. No, he was larger than life. He
(19:02):
was legendary. He was he should be in the Hall
of Fame, extraordinarily disciplined. You know, it was all about
the team. The players had to have everything. And I
think Alex, I don't know if you remember when it
was raining, he would get really pissed off at Robbie Kakuza,
the clubhouse manager, because you wanted every player to have
a little cloth to wipe their bat off with, and
(19:24):
if there was a rain delay, there should be mattresses
in the clubhouse. You know, it was all for the players.
I think he was the first owner to provide omelets,
you know, for Sunday brunch for all the players.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
But I think what I learned from him is always
be prepared. I mean we would go into meetings.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
And he had an unerring sense of what you didn't know,
so you'd go in prepared for the meeting and then
he'd ask you that one thing, that one thing that
you didn't know. But early on I learned that I
would say, I don't I don't know that. I don't
have the answer to that, but I will go and
get the answer and come back. Yeah, before I came
(20:04):
to the Yankees, i'd call him George. When I came
to the Yankees, I'd call him mister Steinbrenner. So he said,
whenever anybody's.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
But I never call him the boss because that's Bruce Springsteen.
I just want to make that.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
You know, a lot of the old timers at the Yankees,
you know we miss him.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
At the time, we didn't and Gene along the same lines,
I'll never forget in the World Series when he went
into the Shay Stadium and said this furniture is not
good enough and he literally had Robbie Gokuza change it.
Oh yeah, it was unbelievable. But one quick question on
what is the biggest difference. I think how has done
(20:40):
an extraordinary job with what he's doing today and the
resources spending and the commitment level, just like George. What
would you say is the difference between George versus How
For our listeners.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Well, part of it you hit on listening.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Hal is a rational, reasonable, smart man who it's kind
of ironic because if he doesn't know the answer or
the subject matter, he will learn it.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
He goes to the players, talks with.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
Them, asks their opinion, ask the opinion of everybody in
the organization. Hal is a I would say, a very
enlightened leader, whereas George was more slightly dictator ish.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
We love that.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Because you know what you were getting. Yeah, and it's generational.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
You know. Hal's a different kind of leader. He's a
I mean, George would be out of this would not
be his time period. Some of the things he said
and did, Oh my lord, there would be so many lawsuits, but.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Fair to say. And talked to us about Brian Cashman.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I mean, this is a partnership that you've been involved
in for you know, now multiple decades. He obviously has
a probably as high a profile, if not higher, than
just about anyone in the business of baseball, maybe even
across sports. He is extremely well known. Talk to us
about your partnership with him, And I know Alex sort
(22:04):
of witnessed it, but I'm curious how you see it.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
I had met.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
Brian when I was representing players and we got along.
We got along, and then when he asked me to
be his assistant general manager, I thought I'd be there
for a couple of years. My first contract was two
years plus a club option. I thought I'd be right
back in California after that. But Brian is remarkable. I mean,
people say, the hardest job, you know, is being the
general manager of the New York Yankees. And they asked him, like,
(22:30):
what's the hardest job you ever had or what's the
messiest job? And he said, well, you know, cleaning out
horse stalls in Kentucky is much messier than being the
general manager of the New York Yankees. But Alex, you
know this, I'm being a Yankee is different than being
any as a player, as you know, a coach as
a general manager, and he's had to, you know, put
(22:52):
together these teams for wow, twenty five thirty years, and
it's not always the money that's the thing. And even
if you do have a large paycheck, you've got to
spend it wisely and you have to have the depth
to be able to get through a season.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
And he's just remarkable.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
He's very even keeled, great sense that Alex knows this
great sense of humor, doesn't get flustered like Hal. He's
a big listener, gets the advice of everybody in the organization.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And I think that's why he's lasted so long. Is
it's that.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
And he also, you know it doesn't really have a
very big ego. Is also the key.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
It's it's really a team effort for him.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Yeah, Geene Brian Cashman has a lot of qualities. One
of them is very tough, and you have to be right.
You have to be thick skin to play in a
market like New York, where yeah, you may have a
lot of resources, but the scrutiny is brighter, the lights
are brighter, and the expectations are much higher. But in
two thousand and nine, I don't know if it was
May where we were maybe May June. We were kind
(23:50):
of a little bit of a funk and that team
didn't get in a lot of funks. But it was
early and we weren't playing well, and he flew into Atlanta.
We had a players only meeting with Cashman. I think
he was gonna scream at us. He didn't scream at us.
He was constructive. He said, guys, we got to get
better this that the other thing which I don't want
to share here. And from that day on we played
(24:12):
almost seven to fifty baseball and obviously went on to
win the world title. So for me, that was a
great sign of not only high level what you have
with what he has to do with George and how
on the finance side, but the personality and the eq
to go into a room of twenty five players and
tell us exactly how it is. I think that was
a big reason why we won the title in two
(24:34):
thousand and nine.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
I agree. I think you also hit on something. He
always says, you run towards a problem. You don't avoid it,
run towards it. And I always joke with him that
he doesn't really have a bedside manner with players. Sometimes
I refer to players as gardens that need tending. You know,
you have to have sometimes a light that's not him.
He knew will just and that probably in the meeting he's.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Just no bod right.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
He will sit down with the player, and every player
knows that I'm not.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Gonna lie to you, I'm not going to bolk at you.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
I'm going to I'm going to look you in the
eye I'm going to tell you the truth. And there
were so many times when George would tell him, you
go down there, you scream at those players, you've cut
the money, you whatever you need to do, and he would,
you know, not his head, and then he would go
he wouldn't do that, he would go down he'd have
a notebook conversation. I always worry whenever I do an
interview and people go, oh, how refreshing, You're so authentic.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I've just embarrassed my mother.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
And so Jean, Alex and I are always I think
one of the many things we share an interest in
is how people manage their careers. And you know, you
talked about how how Brian has done it? How have
you done it? You know, I mean having this long
of a tenure at a single organization, and listen, many
people would look and say, it's a dream job.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
It's a hard job.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
You're at the highest level at you know, one of
the most you know, dominant, historic, high expectation organizations in
the world. How have you managed it? And and how
do you how do you manage a career like that?
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Well? I I you know, and once again I'm not
I'm not saying this out of any arrogance. But I
always want little girls and little boys to see that
there are women in these positions in baseball, because if
you see it, then you can imagine yourself there.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So when I.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Represented players, I was told that I was the only
certified player agent, you know, certified by the MLBPA at
the time. And then I was the third woman assistant GM,
and for period of time I was the only one,
and then my very good friend Miquel Ferreira, my brother
I call her, became the assistant GM at the Red Sox.
Now there are other women assistant gms. But I was
(26:36):
lucky to be at the right place at the right time.
So starting in Japanese baseball was just I just happened
to be there. And I was lucky to work with
Dona Mora. I was lucky to work with Gene Orza Alex.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
You remember Jean.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
He's just an incredible He was the general counsel of
the of the PA and just an incredible smart man,
and he kind of took us under his wing. So
lucky to work with and for Brian Cashman and George Steinbrenner.
So part of it is part of it's me, but
part of it's also working with people who can recognize
(27:08):
your talent or what you can do, and who allow
you to to be your most skilled. It's like, Alex,
It's like it's like where you where you're most.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Comfortable in the batting order. You just you know, you want.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
People have to give you the opportunity to do your
best stuff. And I was lucky that I had people
giving me the opportunity to do.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
My best stuff.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Geene, I want to I want to press you on
one element and almost based on what you said earlier
in the conversation, press you and maybe even correct you. Sorry,
you know, because you said, you know you're at the
right place at the right time with the Japanese baseball piece.
But based on what you said earlier, it sounds like
that was an opportunity that could be identified by other people.
But then you did it, and that does seem to
(27:53):
be a difference. You know that you said, Okay, we're
going to identify these loopholes and then we're going to
figure out what they are going to take advantage of them,
and then when they move, we're going to try to
So I mean, I dare say I feel like maybe
you're not giving yourself enough credit for I mean, that
was pioneering and revolutionary at the time and really changed
the game, right, I'm not.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Using any false modesty. I mean I was also lucky
that I worked with players Nomo and sorran Oni Rabu
who really like they put their lives on the line.
They could have been out of baseball pumping gas, you know,
just their careers could have been over, and they trusted
Don and I and I mean, I love the challenge.
The challenge was amazing, and we really felt that we
(28:34):
were doing something important and it was our version of
baseball civil rights, you know, and it was really exciting.
And I was probably I wasn't that young, but I
was probably you know, I just had the blinders on
and I just felt we're doing the right thing and
we can't fail.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
But I still think I've just been really lucky, really mucky.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Jane, You've been really lucky, but you've been really really
good and you're great at your job. I guess I
have a two part question for you. One, as a
young woman in the world of sports, there weren't a
lot of women in the world of sports. A lot
of times, many times you were the only woman in
the room, which is incredible. But I guess, did you
ever have any imposter syndrome? And what do you think
(29:16):
is your superpower?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I still have imposter syndrome. I still have imposter syndrome.
As a matter of fact, memory is.
Speaker 5 (29:23):
Such a funny thing, you know, it's probably the most
unreliable thing we have.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
So in order to prepare for this podcast, I actually
went back and.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
Reviewed reviewed everything that I'd done, and I looked up
the rules and the posting system and all that, you know,
because I figured people are going to listen and go, wow,
she doesn't know what the she's talking about. But I
did have imposter syndrome a lot. I didn't as a
player representative, and I always enjoyed working with players, never
(29:50):
had any you know, discrimination from players on the club side.
A little bit more maybe, but I was constantly, you know,
carrying around the basic Agreement and the Major League rules
with me and you know, flipping through it on whenever
I could. And if you are the only one in
the room, and sometimes I probably said things, you know,
(30:12):
just to shock people.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
And what is your super power? I know you're trying
to avoid, Oh, my superpower?
Speaker 5 (30:17):
I guess my superpower is over the years, and as
a player, you have to do this. I developed a
thicker and thicker and thicker skin, and I think, I
hope one of my superpowers is.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
That I care so damn much. I just care about
my job.
Speaker 5 (30:32):
I'm doing well every single day, and I live in
fear and dread even now, thirty something years later, that
on any.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Given day, well, Jeane, you're not. You're doing a terrible
job of talking about your super power. So I'll do
it for you. O God, you do not no, honestly,
like we were together for you know, parts of fifteen years,
maybe a little bit more. And I watched your career.
I studied your career through thick and thin. You're always
fair and you're always honest, and in many ways you
(31:04):
have been a role model to me because you always
handled yourself in such a regal manner. And I come
from a single mother, and watching you, I can just
see my mother up there and be the only woman
in the room. I just think is an extraordinary thing.
And I know, I know there there'll be hundreds, if
not thousands of young women that will look at you
(31:24):
as a role model and will study your career.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
Alex, thank you so much. That's a really lovely thing
to say. I'm going to need a recording of this.
I'm gonna play it every morning, Good morning before I
start my day.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Your affirmation. All right, So we're gonna move to our
lightning round. This is just five questions. We're gonna do
it real quick. Alex now bounced back and forth and
(31:55):
just you know, say whatever jumps into your mind.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
All right, you ready?
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Oh god, Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
What's the best piece of advice you've ever received on
deal making or business?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
No substitute for the written word.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
What's your dream deal making partner?
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Well, Brian Cashman, what's the most nervous you've ever been?
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I can't say now right now.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
The most nervous I've ever been? You know what the
first time I walked into court when I was litigating.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
What's your hype song before a big meeting or negotiation?
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Dammit, dammit.
Speaker 5 (32:25):
It's an Australian band and I can never think of
the name. But it's an Australian band. It's an Australian band.
I can't think of the name though.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yeah, how does it go? Sing it?
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (32:35):
I can't behind it.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I do have a I mean I have a quote.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I have a quote, that's my right that.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
I have two quotes that I always say, and they're
from Lady Macbeth, who's.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Not really a role model for anybody. But one is
that if you screw your courage.
Speaker 5 (32:52):
To the sticking post, you can't fail. And the other,
which actually isn't from Lady Macbeth, but I used to
tell myself turn your blood to ice.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And your blood to ice. Turn your blood to ice,
and then walk in. My mother taught me something.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
She said, whenever you walk into a meeting, you have
to tell yourself, you know these affirmations, I'm smart, I'm this,
I'm that, and then your last your last word to
yourself is and I have a secret.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
So if you walk in and I have a secret,
everybody just is like, what is what is going on there?
What is happening there?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
WHOA that is really good?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
I have a secret.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
That's really good.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
All right?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
So what's your advice for someone listening who wants a
career like yours, which is unmatched?
Speaker 1 (33:38):
You know what? And then, once again I hope this
doesn't sound sappy.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
Education, education, education, and put the blinders on, do the work,
do it well.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Don't let anybody tell you you can't do it, and
just you know, move forward. You can do anything if
you use your mind.
Speaker 5 (33:55):
And I realized that that may be disingenuous because a
lot of people don't have an opportunity for an education,
and a lot of people don't have, you know, opportunities
come their way. But I would say that that even
if you're not going to get paid, which I wasn't
paid early in my baseball career, whatever you can do,
if a job comes your way, take it and then
make yourself indispensable.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
That's really good.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Well, I have to say there have been a lot
of text flying back and forth between me and Alex
in anticipation of this one, Gene, and you really delivered
and then some so thank you so much for spending
some time with us.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
It was a real treat to see the two of
you chop it up.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
Thank you, Gene.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I'm so honored that you asked me. I'm so honored,
and Alex. It's great to be working together again, the
same team again.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
I know.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
I'm so happy. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Thanks a lot, gentlemen, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
The Deal is hosted by Alex Rodriguez and me Jason
Kelly This episode was made by Annamasarekus, Stacey Wong, and
Lizzie Phillip. Amy Keene is our editor. Music is made
by Blake Maples. Our executive producers are Kelly Leferrier, Ashley Hoenig,
and Brenda Nonham. Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.
Additional support from Rachel Carnivale and Elena sos Angeles. Thanks
(35:14):
so much for listening to the deal. If you have
a minute, subscribe, rate and review our show. It'll help
other listeners find us. I'm Jason Kelly. See you next week.
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