Robert E. Lee on Leadership: author Harry W. Crocker III

Harry W. Crocker III author of the new book Robert E. Lee on Leadership shares the lessons that can be learned by the study General Lee. Crocker’s historical perspective also unearths profound facts and nuance that made both Lee, Grant, Lincoln any many other leaders of that time the men who shaped America for 160+ years.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
This is Viewpoint Alabama on the AlabamaRadio Network, a show where we talk
about the people, the places,and the things making news in and around
our state. I'm your host,John Mounts, and this week I'm honored
to be talking with Harry W.Crocker the third as he cuts through the
vitriol and shows why Robert E.Lee. Yes, General Robert E.
Lee is a formidable and shining exampleto modern day leaders. And I know

(00:27):
what you're thinking, John, Look, it's the South and all, but
come on, Robert E. Lee. He's a bad guy. Besides,
he lost the war, but there'sstill a lot to be learned from him
when it comes to leadership. Harrymakes a case in his new book,
Robert E. Lee On Leadership.He's a businessman, strategist, General Robert
E. Lee's leadership and it's relevanttoday. Harry, Welcome to Viewpoint.

(00:48):
Thanks so glad to be here.Absolutely so. I was recently reading Bill
O'Reilly's book Killing Lee Lincoln. It'snot about Robert E. Lee, but
it doesn't focus on him, butit does paint a fascinating picture of him,
and I kind of wanted to learnmore. So if I were to
hop in doc Brown's DeLorean and headover to the campus of West Point.
How would I recognize Robert E.Lee? Back then, Roberty Lee,

(01:08):
even from his earliest days, wasknown as a man of high character.
He answered, of high character thrustupon him. He grew up in a
celebrated family, but sort of straightenedcircumstances his father and it was known as
light horse Harry Lee. He hadserved under George Washington in Revolutionary War,
but after the war was sort ofa near duel and left the family poor

(01:33):
and died when Lee was young.Lee took care of his mother as actually
as he was growing up, andhe went to West Point and had no
demerits there, which is a remarkableachievement, and went on to become an
engineer, and the engineering court ofthe Army was reserved for the best students,
the top of the class when becameengineers, and he worked as an

(01:57):
engineer, but engineers also came tobe used were something else, which was
scouting and during the Mexican War,and Lee was most often used by General
Winfield Scott, who was known asthe best educated soldier in the army as
a scout, and he was aremarkable scout finding ways to get at the
enemy that everyone else thought were impossible. There were these impassable lava flows and

(02:21):
whatnot, and he found ways aroundthem because engineers were good not just a
construction but at reading the land.He later became that as Lee later became
superintendent at West Point. And then, of course the great climactic moment of
his life comes when the Civil Warhappens. Now, in a little bit
of background here is that Lee wasinteresting enough opposed to secession. He says,

(02:47):
I want He wanted no other flagthan the stars and stripes. He
wanted no other anthem but Hail Columbia. And he was also opposed to slavery.
He thought slavery was evil, buthe believed and this is a crucial
thing of a part of Lee whichis shot through his entire character. He
thought was part of what it meantto be an American was that you Americans

(03:09):
don't deal with each other through force. And that's coming from a military officer,
but through persuasion. An officer leadsthe troops by example, and in
our political discourse each other, weshould persuade each other morally using, in
his mind, using Christian moral persuasion. That's how he thought slavery should be

(03:32):
ended over time, by convincing peoplewho were who had a right to their
own conscience, that they had toend this institution, not to do it
by force. When the war isabout to break out, the states of
the lower South pull out first.It's like Alabama in my own Mississippi.
And then the states of the upperSouth don't pull out immediately, but they

(03:54):
pull out after Lincoln orders them toraise truths to subjugate their fellows southern states.
They say, we won't do this. And this becomes Lee's position when
when Virginia decides to succede, hefeels he's obliged to follow his state.
He's offered command of the un army, and he says, and this is

(04:15):
my paraphrasing, but it's virtually ofthe right quote. He turns it down,
and he says, you know,for all my love for the Union,
I cannot consent to turn my swordagainst my home, my family,
my native state. Save in defenseof Virginia. I will turn my sword
on none. And he added inhis separate communication, he said, again

(04:36):
I'm quoting from member here, Buta union that can only be held together
by swords and bayonets has no charmfor me. And interestingly enough, he
was such a believer, a sincerebeliever in conscience, individual conscience, that
he did not tell his sons.In reality, they all follow him out
with the Confederacy. But he believedthat people should follow their own moral conscience.

(05:01):
I remember, as historians have noted, Lee is like the epitome of
the Southern gentleman, the Virginian gentleman. In fact, a famous historian from
Princeton said he was like the epitomeof the gentlemanly Virginia class had done so
much to make this country. Butwhat Lee thought distinguished a gentleman, among

(05:24):
other things, was the forbearing useof power or advantage. So you know,
the strong should not lord it overthe week, the super intelligence should
not lord it over those less intellectuallygifted. That was the mark of a
gentleman. And that was something elsethat he did throughout his career. Theodore

(05:44):
Roosevelt, who whose father was oldenough to have been he was draft age
during the Civil War. He wasin the North. Theodo was maild there
was from the South. And hesaid in a public speech he said,
as Americans again I'm paraphrasing from memoryhere as Americans, we have rights.
We have a great right to takepride in the in the honor and glory

(06:06):
that was won by the boys inBlue as much as by the honor and
glory won by the boys in gray, because both fought for the right as
they saw the right. And itis stunning to me that that consensus has
been overturned by something that strikes meis sort of like a it's bad history,

(06:27):
it's cartoonish history, it's sort ofcritical rasary history, which is strikes
him is absurd. Harry, ifyou could, I'd like you to compare
and contrast him with another West Pointgraduate, Ulysses, says Grant, who
was younger than Lee when they facedoff in the Civil War. But how
were these two men different beyond theywere just fighting on two separate sides of
the war. They were very different, but they were they were both great

(06:49):
men in their own way. Lee, Well, they all interacted in a
big way. And here let mestart with a sort of at the end,
which is that you know, oneof the climate the great ending moment
of the Civil War is Appomatics,where Lee surrenders to Grant, now,

(07:13):
Grant says, initially he was overjoyed. He was joyous that at last the
Confederacy was going to surrender. Leewas going to surrender. But then Lee
comes into his presence, and heis filled with melancholy and sadness. And
this is these are like his ownwords for seeing such a noble general and

(07:33):
a people who had fought so hard, even though he believed their cause was
unjust and wrong. They fought sohard and so well. To see them
reduced to this, you know,stay of having a surrender was saddened even
Grant. So you have the RobbieLeague dressed immaculately in his great uniform with
a red sash and polished boots,and you have Grant, the mud spattered

(07:57):
in his early old boots, acceptinghis surrender. But Lee would never let
anyone say a bad word about Grantin his presence after the war. He
was grateful that Grant's terms, whichwere expressed in two hundred words, roughly
speaking, his terms for the forthere Stretch surrender, were so in Lee's

(08:20):
mind generous. You know, theyboth of them had fought in the Mexican
War. Interestingly, Grant thought theMexican war was also an unjust war.
He was supposed to that. Leedid not have such qualms, though Lee
was also appalled and very deeply markedby the civilians suffering he saw in the

(08:41):
Mexican War. Throughout the Civil War, he made a tremendous point of trying
to spare civilians the worst of thewar, which was in contrast the Union
strategy, which was total war,I mean, including not just Sherman's march
through to Atlanta and make make Georgiahowell, make the South howel in the

(09:07):
famous phrase, but also of coursein Virginia with Sheridan burning and pillaging the
bread basket of the Confederacy in theShindow Valley. They mean, it was
a Union war aim to wage waragainst the South and intervent the South and
feeding itself. And they blockaded soimportans of course, if Lee didn't do
that. When Lee went into Maryland, which was a slave state but which

(09:28):
was held by the Federals and undermilitary occupation under Marshall Law, actually and
they'd suppressed you know, things likehadeas corpus and some other civil rights we
take for granted. Lee said,you know, your ancient freedoms have been
restored. But if you're going tocome join your fellow Southern States, you
need to do it voluntarily, followyour own conscience. You will not be
compelled by my army. Marmy willalso not raid you for supplies or food,

(09:52):
and if they do, I willpunish them. But about so they
were, though, I will saythat both very dutiful men. After the
war. They were both forces forreconciliation. And they were both forces for
reconciliation while not betraying their own principles. So in Lee's case, Lee would

(10:16):
not I'll alterrate Lee's vision by killingyou. A story which is that there's
a man named like CAMRA's first namewas mister Humphries. Mister Humphries was telling
Lee that he was working so veryhard and so very busy. He was
trying to make up for all thetime he had lost serving in the Confederate

(10:37):
Army during the war, and Leeupbraided him, saying, mister Humphries,
whatever you do, whatever you achieve, the days, the hours, the
weeks, the years you spend inthe Confederate Army will in retrospect be the
most productive days, hours, months, weeks, year as you ever spent

(10:58):
your life. Because you followed yourduty word set effect. Lee became an
educated after the war and worked veryhard to reconcile North and South and rebuilt
his region. Grant, after thewar, of course, becomes presidents,
and Grant is both a force forreconciliation, but also you know, when
bad things cropped up, like theKukux Klan, he was intended putting that

(11:18):
down. Grant was also something he'snot often given credit for, both the
most pro Indian member of his administration, at least not mean He's administration,
but in in the Union Army thoseofficers that became high ranking officials after the
war. Something thinking of phil Sheridanand Sherman both had no time for Indians,
and Grant was actually quite sympathetic tothe indians plight. So both men

(11:41):
Lee and Grant were great figures inwar and out of war. Harrett,
your book, it's about motivation andI and Lee's ability to motivate. And
this is critical because when you lookat the two sides, the North and
the South, the North was somuch better. They had better breast,
they had better weapons, they hadbetter back lines, railed all that kind

(12:05):
of stuff. Every the cards werekind of stacked against the South in a
lot of ways. Yet even towardsthe end, when the chips were down,
General Lee was able to lead hismen, motivate men, men who
hadn't eaten in days sometimes and stillcontinued the fight. How does a leader
motivate even in situations like that?Yeah, it was It was character.

(12:26):
I mean I think it was ShelbyFoote, same as historian so Word historian
who said that at the ends thatyou know in northern Virginia, that's Lee's
army is getting worn down, ascaught in the siege at Petersburg, that
the soldiers fought less for a causethan they did for him, the pride
they took in him, seeing himright along their lines. And I think
that's true. I mean, Leewas. He was just someone that everyone

(12:52):
who ever met him, for themost part, I'm sure they were exceptions,
but people who met him thought,this is a remarkable man. And
I will give you another quote ora story again. This is a man
named Field Marshal Viscount Wolseley Jarnett WolseleyKarnet Wolseley was head of the British Army

(13:13):
under Queen Victoria, and he actuallyhad met Lee, and he said,
and again I'm pergrasing, but hesaid, of all the great men it's
been my fortune to meet in mylife. To give my high ranking military
position, I have to say thatthe only one who ever struck me as
being cast in a grander mold andmade of a finer medal than other men

(13:35):
was Robert D. Lee. Andthen, of course after the war you
have men like Winston Churchill who saythat not only as Lee a great general,
but he was one of the noblestAmericans that ever lived. And Churchill
was part of a great I'd liketo think of them as the great triumvirate
of World War two. Allied leadersto include Dwight Eisenhower and George Marshall of

(14:01):
the Marshall Plan fame General George Marshall. They all were people who idolized Roberty
Lee. George Marshall went to VMI, which was a school where Stonemall Jackson
taught, which is directly across thelawn. You can walk from five minutes
from one school the other, butfrom what is now Washington Lee University,

(14:22):
where Robert Lee was president after thewar. Eisenhower famously kept a picture of
portrait of Lee in his in theOval Office, the Bye House, when
as president, so Lee's inspiration andraising an army for the South from you

(14:43):
know, virtually nothing, and thenand sustaining that army, which, as
you say, it was continually outnumbered, ill supplied et et victory after victory
after victory against the odds, verydaring maneuvers. And then actually even part
of his career raising a college fromnothing, when he took over Washington College

(15:05):
in the devastation after Civil War,which something like a quarter of the I
guess you could call draft age popularwhite population of the South was dead,
two thirds of the Southern economy,roughly speaking, was destroyed. He takes
over Washington College, has four professorsand forty students. The state of Virginia

(15:26):
is under martial law. Lee haslost his citizenship, He's lost everything.
His house is now a cemetery,his home, all his property, land
and money is taken from him.And yet in the five years you're meating
to him, he takes us,you know, the remnants of a college
and turns it in short and shortorder into what becomes Washington University right after

(15:48):
his death, and he takes itsexisting classical curriculum and adds things like commerce
and engineering and all these things.He thinks the law, he thinks of
the South needs to build itself.And as one of his biographers, gun
and Charles Brayson Flood said, ifif you just were to judge Lee by
his work as an educator, hewould rank in the top rank of American

(16:12):
educators in all history. So whateverLee turned his hand to, and he
was trained, and you know,stmuscles have a professional soldier, he was
a notable success. And it seemswhat're you arguing is that Lee was a
strong man, but his strength wasalmost through I guess his strength was through

(16:33):
persuasion, and he was able toconvince people to do things. It wasn't
a matter of putting a gun tosomebody's head or raising a sword over them
and say you will do this.These people were genuinely motivated to follow him
and do as he wished, Andso he could accomplish these things even in
the situation like you said with theuniversity, where I would imagine it's tough
to invest or convince investors to putmoney into what could be considered a failing

(16:56):
venture, yet it ultimately was successful. Yes, No, indeed, and
he did, I mean for thisschool and his prestige. Lee actually turned
that offer down initially because he toldthe school, look, I could be
tried for treason right now. JeffersonDavis, President Confederacy, is in prison
in the North, and Jefferson Davisstand in prison for two years, was

(17:18):
ever tried, finally released. ButLee was not a citizen. He was
you know, could have been triedfor treason. That was a threat over
his head. And yet his prestigewas always so great in the South certainly
that yes, he could bring investorsto the school, he could bring students
to the schools, he could bringprofessors to the school. But I will
say too that Lee not only wasgreat at persuading people, he was great

(17:40):
so many as a soldier. Ifyou think of his management as a soldier,
he was great at figuring out whowas good and who wasn't. And
if an officer was bad, heeither transferred him or got rid of him
somehow. And he had a preferencefor the professionals. If you look at

(18:00):
the the men who are most associatedas Lee's lieutenants, most of them are
professional soldiers who went to West Point. But he knew he had to make
because if the high cash of rates, he knew he had to make do
also with gifted amateurs, and hewas very good at spotting those and rewarding
them with command and leading them andteaching them. And he didn't see any

(18:22):
point in dressing people down unless theyreally violated their duty. Duty was the
thing for him. You know,if we do, if you do your
best, cam parahis rebels. Ifif you do your best, then you
have in your conscience, has noreason to rebuke you. So I mean,
if he had an officer, evenhis best officers sometimes let him down.
Stonewall Jackson was late and early inthe war at the Seven Days Battles

(18:48):
outside of Richmond, and Lee wroteup to him and said, General,
I expected you sooner. That wasa form of a Lee rebuke. You
know the problem with Lee, hewas too damn nice. It's interesting you
bring up Stonewall Jackson because I wantto ask about him, because a leader
is sometimes it's easy for them tolead weaker men, men who are willing
to be lorded over. But somebodylikes Stonewall Jackson. He was the kind

(19:11):
of guy who was who was whowas very brash, very out there.
He was, He was a warrior, and Lee was able to lead a
man like him direct his talents.How do leaders go about motivating not rather
than the unmotivated, Like I mentionedbefore, people who were super motivated,
and I guess directing their passion toget down what you want to do.

(19:33):
Yes, that's a that's a verygood point. And it's also a point
of just relevant. I guess it'salways relevant. Was particularly relevant in these
circumstances because the South was a veryprideful place. A lot of his officers
were extremely prideful men people at theperiod and it's extremely prideful, but the
South was particularly All these guys werehuge individualists. They weren't to states rights

(19:59):
man. There ind individual rights men. And yes, someone like Stonewall Jackson
was a man who, in mostcircumstances you would not think of being a
man you could manage easily. However, Lee had certain advantages here with Stonewall
Jackson. One is that Lee recognizedthat Stonewall Jackson was actually very much of

(20:23):
a mind with his own. Bothbelieved that the South could not sustain a
long war, and so they hadto rely on extreme daring, and extreme
daring there wasn't reckless, but wasdaring with some chance of success. And
the success was both drive him bythe courage of their men, but so

(20:45):
tactical brilliance of Lee and Stonewall Jackson. And so they were of the same
mind. And this will like Leelike to do. He liked to find
men who shared his strategic vision.He would lay out the broad strategy,
but he never micromanaged his people.He found men he could trust, and
he would turn them loose. Mightbe an exaggeration, but he wanted them

(21:10):
to take advantage of battlefield situations.And he knew he could trust Stonewall Jackson
to be the aggressive commander that hewanted that he would, he would seize
those advantages. He also recognized thatpeople had different strengths, so Stonewall Jackson
was a great guy at pulling offthese marches and countermarches and surpris decks.

(21:32):
If he wanted a big ball togo is charging to the woods, or
to hold a position tenaciously, althoughyou have Longstreet, and he recognized that
Long Street to slow, He's notgoing to get there quickly, but when
he gets there, he's going tohit hard. So he could trust Long
Street for that, but he usedpeople in their proper roles. He used
Jeff Stewart, another great individualist,dramatic character, as his scout, and

(21:57):
Jeff Stewart let him down times withhis chivalric ways or his swashbuckling ways like
a Gettysburg. But for the mostpart he could trust Jeff Stewart. You
could turn them loose, and JeffStewart could do his big johnts around the
Union Army and come back with goodintelligence. And there are many other officers.

(22:18):
Ap Hill is an underappreciated but greatofficer of leaves. He recognized that
they're not just units. This isthis isn't something you can easily transfer.
The business people are not just unitsthat old thing about politics. Personnel makes
policy. He absolutely believed that.He believed that everyone was an individual.

(22:38):
They have individual talents, weak weaknesses, strengths, and you had to recognize
them and take advantage of them whenyou could. When they had good talents
to abuse and if they were ifthey were not dutiful men, if they
were irresponsible means they couldn't manage thepeople, if they didn't put others before
themselves, they were bounced out andhe could be for all his gentleness,

(23:02):
he could be a strictestci clarion too, to make sure that, which of
course is extremely important an army whenyou're using force. And maybe a great
example of that in illustrations that wouldbe just before the war and Harper's Ferry.
This illustrates both his discriminating use offorce in his concern for civilian casualties.

(23:22):
Harper's Ferry, John Brown hopes tocause a slave insurrection. He has
hostages captured at the armory there,and Lee is tasked to get him to
go arrest him with a small detachmentof marines. Actually Jeff Stewart is with
him at this incident, and Leehas the Marines go in with their muskets

(23:44):
unloaded for this very reason. Theyknocked down the door with an ax and
they come in with bayonets because hebecause there's a soldier's duty to of course
doing get the bad guy, butnot to risk civilian casualties. Harry,
if I may ask, you know, all things Confederate in this day and

(24:04):
ager are hated, And I guessmaybe that's the reason why people have such
a negative view towards General Robert E. Lee. I mean, I've heard
stories where people have tried to desecratethe grave of his horse traveler. They're
trying to carve him off of stonemountain. Why is he so reviled?
And was he a good man?He was a great man. And again

(24:26):
I can in my book I said, many people recognize it at the time
and afterwards. And if you wereto ask me, I'm sixty two years
old. What has changed most inmy sixty two years are changing views of
the Civil War which have changed dramaticallyfor the ahistorical antihistorical. They are completely

(24:47):
propagandistic now in a way that previousgenerations of Americans would have been gone.
What the heck? It was nota left right thing in the past.
When Lee's citizenship was belatedly restored tohim and Steen seventy five, it was
with the vast majority of members ofCongress voting in favor, both Democratic Republican.
Yeah, this is fairly. Thisis a recent revolution in the way

(25:11):
we think about it. And itis to my mind, transparently because I
think about these things a lot,but transparently motivated by ill intentions. There
is no reason, I mean,as lightly as possible, people who knock
down statues as a rule are notgood people. Vandals as a rule are

(25:36):
not good people. And people whothink that, you know, these mystic
chords of memory as Lincoln called them, should be snipped, are not good
people. The only people who wantto destroy your history are people who want
to rewrite your history, and theywant to rewrite your history to their own
bad ends. And that's what's happening. And unfortunately, too many, I

(25:56):
think people who who don't recognize thesort of again critical race theory, I
guess you could go a Marxist attackon American history. They went along with
this because they feel guilty about slaveryor civil rights and say, okay,
well, the Confederates can go notrecognizing that. Well, when they go,
guess what Lee was in Virginia sincethe seventeenth century. He married in

(26:18):
the George Washington's family. Oh god, guess what. George Washington's slave owner.
He's bad. Right. Every foundergoes down, even even Abraham Lincoln
goes down because with the Homestead Act, oh, he was pushing Indians off
their land, or you could getits endless. When you start when you
start becoming so so narrow minded,so narrow minded, and tendentiously political like

(26:44):
this, you politicize everything again,it's sort of a Marxist way. That's
not No one is doing that becausethey're good historians, or because they care
about their country, or because theywant to get at the truth. They're
selling you something. There's people talkabout. You know, the the pro
Southern view was being a myth.Well it's a myth. It's a myth

(27:07):
that was started like immediately after thewar. These people are making these same
sorts of arguments, the lost causeof arguments that wasn't so much the myth.
The myth is what is happening nowgone with the wind, which one
feels surprised by the way, asa novel is a great historical novel,
that's not a myth. This stuffis a myths, and that's what's so
heinous. You see these empty pedalstills, We see these graffiti. You

(27:29):
see yes traveler's gravestone being dug up. People who are grave robbers like that
are not good people, you know. The others that there's there used to
be a marker out in I thinkit was in Hollywood as a cemetery in
Hollywood, Holy California, and itwas something I have to think sort of
you know, charming, I meanheartwarming away because it said something like this

(27:52):
mark was resurrected to all the Confederatesoldiers who came here after the war and
died seeing the Pacific Ocean. Itwas not there's nothing, no bad intent
in that, and that was torndown. I mean, that's sort of
it's self evidently driven by hatred andhatred that that wants to poison the well

(28:15):
of American history. I think itis so heinous, and I think in
the end it is, it willbe. It is. It's already proving
itself so destructive, destructive, notjust of these monuments that went up,
which you know there's still I guessothers under throw im. Not just poort
Old Traveler, but it was aConfederate monument at Arlington Cemetery, which was

(28:37):
put there, by the way byPresident McKinley, a Union solid was the
one who authorized that. Is alsostrange to me that the actual people who
fought the war could extend hands overas it or the Mason Dixon line and
shake hands and not be so incrediblyvindictive and hateful as people today. And

(29:00):
when you have that sort of reaction, I think as well. That too,
I think betrays the fact these peopleare not historical literate. These people
have a have a hateful political agendathat is crowding out real American history and
they're doing it, unfortunately, reallysuccessfully. And Harry, I think that's
the point is these people they're soupset of what they believe to be ignorance,

(29:21):
yet they are the ignorant. Authorh W. Crocker in your book,
and I guess I should say newbooks. My new book is new
in paperback, Robert E. Leeon Leadership is now available. Thank you
so much for joining me this weekon Viewpoint Alabama. Great, my great
pleasure. Thank you, thank you. You've been listening to Viewpoint Alabama,
a public affairs program from the AlabamaRadio Network. The opinions expressed on Viewpoint

(29:42):
Alabama are not necessarily those of thestaff, management, or advertisers of this station.