November 22, 2024 • 59 mins
Nicole Witt is an accomplished Nashville-based songwriter and artist, with cuts by George Strait, Lee Brice, Terri Clark, Rodney Atkins, and Ellie Holcomb, just to name a few. In episode 54, we talk to Nicole about how to keep songwriting unique, where her passion for songwriting came from, her band, The Six One Five Collective, and we get to hear an original worktape of a song she wrote with John Paul White (The Civil Wars) called “Kiss.”
Find Nicole Witt
Listen to Kiss
Artist And
Produced by Brandon Carswell
Special thanks to Nick Autry
Recorded live at Sound Stage Studios Nashville, TN
Film & Editing by Shaun Carswell
Episode intro music written by Brandon Carswell & produced by Micah Tawlks - "Back To Us" Worktapes show cover art designed by Harrison Hudson
**All songs used by permission**
Find Nicole Witt
Listen to Kiss
Artist And
Produced by Brandon Carswell
Special thanks to Nick Autry
Recorded live at Sound Stage Studios Nashville, TN
Film & Editing by Shaun Carswell
Episode intro music written by Brandon Carswell & produced by Micah Tawlks - "Back To Us" Worktapes show cover art designed by Harrison Hudson
**All songs used by permission**
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey everyone, Brandon here with the Work Tapes podcast. I
wanted to take a second and tell you about artist
and dot Org. If there's one thing I love about
writing in Nashville, it's the community it creates. But let's
face it, we all need each other, and artists are
not just artists anymore where songwriters, we're content creators, marketing managers,
(00:23):
booking agents, social media experts, and we're doing it all
at the same time, a lot of us are doing
it by ourselves. It can be discouraging and it can
burn you out really fast. Award winning veteran songwriters Crystal
Wells and a Cole Wit are building a community through
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(00:44):
helping artists of all backgrounds not only expand their mindset
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creative dreams. And they're doing this through a variety of
online and in person opportunities to connect and create within
a community. Visit artists and dot org to learn how
you can become a part of artist development, vision meetings,
(01:06):
writing prompts, annual songwriters retreats, coaching, and a whole lot
more so, whether you're a professional artist and you're feeling stuck,
or you're an up and coming artist and not sure
where to start, or you're just feeling overwhelmed by it all.
Visit artists and dot org and learn how you can
become part of a movement of people coming alive through
(01:26):
creativity and authentic connection. Artist and dot org let him
know Brandon from Work Tape, Simyah, Welcome to Work Tapes.
This is a podcast where we tear our songs. Why
(01:48):
was the song written, what's it about? What's the context
and emotion behind it? Where were you at the time,
what were you going through? How did certain minds come
to you? What's the inspiration? How long did it take
to write? I'm Brandon Carswell and I'm fascinated for songwriting
and how songs are built from the ground up. It's
(02:09):
easy to hear a full production song on the radio
and dismiss its origin story. I want to hear the
rough draft of the song for the Work Tapes. I
want to explore the very beginning, how songs that move
us and make us move are born.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
We could drive all day, get out of.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
This town, change a scene. Who is that's what we
really need?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
We could hold on to all right to the radio,
find a Way back when night one.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Maybe you miss your.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Jeez luck you me jeeves, lucky me jees mister lovel
tonight jeez like you men.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Welcome to Work Tapes everyone. My name is Brandon Carswell
and I'm joined today by my friend Nicole Witty. How's
it going good? Good?
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Actually?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Thanks for coming, Yeah, thank you. Since I started this podcast,
which was a couple of years ago, I wanted to
have you on. I can't remember how we met. Actually,
do you remember where we met?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Not certain? Maybe through Austin Moody, but.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Was definitely through Awesome, But I just don't the place.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Maybe like one of the recording sessions or something. Yeah,
oh potentially, Yes, it was in Barry Hill in the studio.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I forget the name of that studio now, gosh, now
I forget the name of the guy who owned it
to Prampton, Peter Frampton. Yes, yes, yes, we did.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
It was yeah, it was the Christmas thing I think, right, Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Is that a year or two ago? Yeah, so yeah,
that's where we met. And then I listened to your
music as you released stuff out and I was like,
I've got to have it on. You're a great songwriter, singer, artist,
all of that stuff. Do you want to tell our
listeners kind of just like a little bit of backstory,
who you are, where you come from, Sure, what you're
(04:47):
doing in this world, Sure you have it. How much
time you have all day?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
From Springfield, Missouri and have been you know, playing instruments
and doing music. So I was born basically just just
you know, went to school for it, major to music
and moved to Nashville and jumped in like day three,
(05:13):
like just started playing out like every single night and
soaking in all of the amazing songs and all that,
and realized very quickly that my songs were garbage and
I had a long long way to go to like
the bar. I knew where the bar was pretty quickly,
(05:34):
and and so yeah, just started writing every single day,
sometimes twice a day, and eventually got signed to EMI
Music Publishing, and then Curb after that, and then Universal
(05:54):
Brentwood Benson, which was my last like pub deal, and
then which eventually became Capital CMG. And then after that,
my my old band was signed to a record deal
with Keith Stiegel at Dreamline Entertainment and we did that
and so it's been it's been a long, very interesting,
(06:20):
cool road. And then now I have the six point
five Collective, which we tour a bunch and write a
bunch and a mentor a bunch, and I guess the
newest thing is I'm jumping into the management world.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So yeah, yeah, I have a.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
New artist that I love, and so that's cool. Yeah,
walking down the road, A walking down the road.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So that's fun. When you say you majored in music,
where did you go to school for that?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, so I started at Vandy. I was on a
violin scholarship, and I realized that it was very classical
and I was also going to have to practice about
fourteen hours a day, right, and didn't think that that
was my path.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So it wasn't It wasn't like music business.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
It was no.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
It was at that time, like I didn't know Belmont
even existed, or I probably would have gone there.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well, I think a lot of people don't know like
you can major to music, Like I didn't know that
when I was in high school.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, So I mean I just after that first year,
I knew I didn't want to like pursue like classical violin,
So I transferred back to my state school University of
Missouri and finished there, but more of a general music degree,
I suppose. And then, you know, just I had been
writing songs since like high school, I guess, and I knew,
(07:37):
I knew I really wanted to pursue that.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, so well let's go there, Like what brought you
into wanted to write songs? Were you like a little
kid or you a teenager?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
No? I was a teenager, and I really don't even
know why. I would practice for hours and hours. It
was kind of that like kind of weird dorky kid
that was like always practicing. And I just started writing
a song one day, and and that's how it started.
I was sixteen, you know, and I still writing songs.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Like you don't have anything that kind of triggered that
I don't.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I was guitar, piano, It was.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
On piano and my dad, so my grandparents, I never
met him. They were grassers in Missouri. They had a
traveling family band, and my dad was the baby of
you know, of that group. He never was like in
the in that group per se. But he went on
to be a square dancer on the Ozarjubilee Show, which
(08:36):
was the first like country music national televised show outside
of Nashville. And so there's music, you know, in my blood.
And my dad when I wrote that first song, he uh,
I don't know, I really don't even know why he
felt so compelled, but he took me down to a
(08:56):
studio in Springfield, Missouri and we recorded it, which I
don't know why my dad felt like we needed to
do that. I don't know why, you know, I have
no idea, like something I need to kind of ask him,
I guess. But so we recorded four or five songs
with a guy named Nick Sibley and great musician, great songwriter,
(09:18):
great all the things. But he gave me my start
in the studio and kind of taught me how to
how to do that. So yeah, and then you know,
moved to Nashville and just jumped in.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
But music in the blood, music in the family, for sure.
Were your parents writing songs?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
They weren't, so it kind of skipped a generation. My
dad started piano lessons. I was like six, and he
walked me down to her name was Missus Hubbard's house.
It was five five doors down and we started together.
And then he was working so much he couldn't like
really practice, but he introduced me to music, and then
(09:58):
the orchestra kind of came through my elementary school and
I was like, I think I want to play violin,
Like just came home with that, and my dad had
his dad's fiddle. That's the only thing he really kind
of has of his own father's and he was going
to put it in a glass case above our living
(10:18):
room couch, and I was like, Dad, I think I
want to play this, you know. And so that's still
the instrument that every single night.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
It is.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
So that's a pretty old How do you keep up
with that thing? Worked?
Speaker 4 (10:34):
You know?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
From time to time. I do have it worked on,
but it is it's one hundred and one years old,
and it sounds, you know, it's kind of like fine wine,
you know, really great instruments age really well if you
care for him.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So right, yeah, okay, I'm still wanting to tackle why
you wrote your first song.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
I don't really know. I don't really know.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
I mean, I just I just are you listening to
some some artists or some band and you were like
I want to do that?
Speaker 3 (11:04):
I don't. I don't remember that. I fell out, like
it just fell out and I just started.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I was like, oh, oh, well, this is kind of fun,
Like if you weren't writing poetry or anything like that,
I mean not.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Really, I don't really know, Okay, Like it literally just
came out one day. Yeah, and then I didn't stop.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Like, so you kept writing all throughout? And then was
there a point where you go, this is what I
want to do?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Yeah? I mean I think towards the latter part of
my college I was like, wait a minute, I I
think there is something to this, you know, but I
didn't really like know you could do that for a living,
Like I didn't know that was a real thing. And
then I started like investigating. And after my first year
in Vandy, I stayed in intern at Warner Brothers. And
(11:53):
I was down the tape room and I was like
a nerd. Every day I was down there, I was
like listening to all of these unbelievable songs before they
were cut. Yeah, and I could almost go, well, this
is a hit, this is a hit, this is a hit.
So then two or three years later, hearing some of
those that I thought was you know, they were hits?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Were there any artists you remember were gosh? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
I mean like you know, one song I can't really
remember the title, I may I was called The River
I can't remember, but it was in the catalog and
Colin Rake ended up cutting it. But yeah, I mean,
you know it was kind of like I kind of
came in like mid to really follow country music, probably
(12:38):
mid nineties, and then was signed then in Nashville two
thousand and one, so you know, probably six years after
I really started like jumping in and going Okay, whoa,
this is crazy cool?
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Were so were you chasing that at that time, like
before you got signed, that's what you wanted, that's what
you're going after.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Is that why you did the internship at Warner Brothers?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, I mean I was always curious about it, Like
I know, again, I didn't know that this career existed,
and once I started meeting some of the songwriters, they
were fascinating. They're fascinating people, yeah, I mean, all creatives are.
I mean, it's just like the vision that they have
and the language that they use, and I mean I
(13:26):
just was like captivated, Like I literally was like a
kid in a candy store, Like it was so cool.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, so cool. Was there something about songwriting and songwriters
in that whole world that surprised you about how these
people were something you didn't expect.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, I mean I think for country music, you know
a lot of the cowboys and the good old boys,
and they were like freaking Hemingway, right, but they are
I'm like the middle of nowhere Kentucky, you know, and
they all moved to Nashville with this kind of this
(14:05):
crazy dreament like not knowing what the world they were
doing and not really knowing it was a career either.
But I was always just like blown away that these
were not just like I think I'm gonna write a song, No,
they were like this was like these were poets. They
were they use language different than Hemingway would, but they
(14:27):
were poets, like true poets.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
So you thought it was going to be like these
are more simple I say this kindly. You thought there's
going to be more simple minded creativity going on maybe,
and and.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
That is that was like on me until I realized
like the most simple songs of course, like the general
public are like, well, that's so easy to write. I
could totally do that. No, really you can't, Like that's
really like some of these guys just every single word
matters and and they know it and they're true poets.
(15:01):
And so I was absolutely like blown away when I
got here by by some of the people. I was
surrounded by just my peers, you know. It was so cool.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, because some of these guys, some of these people
will write, they're not just like a lot of co
writes will be like, what two hours long? An hour long?
But some serious writers are writing for ten hours. Oh yeah,
they're leaving and there's no break or a break, you
know whatever, and that's andy. They leave with something great.
(15:35):
Or they'll be twenty writers on one song yea, so
they can make it perfect. And that's kind of part
of the machine, I guess. But as you're coming up
chasing this and then you get signed right before that,
there's like probably a lot of creativity going on. You're
not totally second guessing everything you're writing. You're having fun.
(15:58):
Does the professionalism part of after you get a record
deal or publishing deal, does that stifle creativity at all
for you? Or did it?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
It didn't for me. It just it probably lit more
even more of a fire underneath me, like I just
because then I was like looking around going, oh my gosh,
how did how did I get you know, how did
I get here? And you know, I just again like
I knew kind of where the bar was, and I
(16:30):
I just I was going to get there like no
matter what, Like I was going to figure it out.
And I had a long way to come, like I
had a long I had a lot to learn about
just the craft.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Well, let's talk about what we were kind of discussing
before we hit record was learning and it may have
taken a while, I don't know, but learning how to
take other people's advice and kind of folding it and
keeping yourself yourself, like keeping you unique while adding in
(17:06):
or listening to someone else's advice and not taking their
advice and going, Okay, I'm going to do that one
hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
That was a tough one when I first moved to
town because of just the way I'm built. I you know,
I always think that other people's ideas are better than mine,
and so for probably you know, even ten years in
the business, I thought everybody's ideas were better than mine,
which so I would automatically just go, yeah, you're you're right,
(17:36):
let's let's let's do it this way. But I would also,
like I remember some rights that I would love to
have those back now because I would. I was kind
of I went in with these huge writers. I was
almost scared, like to like be myself and like really
kind of dive in and be be unafraid because if
(17:57):
you're in the writing room, you have to be super vulnerable,
because you have to be like, you're gonna throw ninety
nine things out that are garbage, but that one, yeah,
you know, that one could change everything for everybody in
the room and if you don't say it. So I
wouldn't say it, you know, I wouldn't say that one
(18:17):
thing because I was too afraid of the ninety nine
that we're gonna be just garbage.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
So I went like that for probably ten years and
then just started like undoing a lot of that, and
you know, so you know, people always ask me about
that and a mentor a lot of new songwriters, and
it's like, you really do need to stay true to yourself.
You really do need to also listen to what veterans
(18:43):
are telling you because they do know. But you can't
lose the kernel of the creativity because what they need
is the kernel of creativity. They don't have that they've
written like thousands and thousands of songs and the one
couple of lines, the way that you turn the phrase
(19:03):
or the way that you your melody is they don't
have that. You need to bring that to them. So,
you know, it's kind of a marriage a lot a
lot of times between figuring out like what you need
to bend on and what you need to you know.
So I think you know, the best way to go
about it is just kind of going in with grace
(19:23):
and kind of open handed, and then if something is
really like if you do need to speak up and go,
you know, hey, guys, this is I always say this
is probably not it. Yeah, I preface that. I say
that probably twenty five times in a co write because
I know it's probably not it, but I know it's
going to get.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Us where we're going, right, you know, stepping stone.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
It's stepping stones. And I didn't understand that like when
I first started.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
So what in that regard what keeps the song or
what keeps songwriting unique? So as your men's wearing other
writers now and you've just you've been in this game
for so long, it's easy to want to copy kind
of industry fads as a writer and go, well, I
could write a song similar to this big song that's
(20:10):
out now, maybe I could get it landed with somebody
else or do it myself. And I feel like, personally,
for me, that's a bit of a trap, and I
don't I not that it's a total sellout because I
get the thing, like, you want to make something that
(20:32):
people want, and they obviously want what is currently popular.
So how do you engage both of those things and
keep your writing super unique because at some point the
fad is going to change. Oh yeah, and maybe you're
the one. Yeah, you might be the one that there's
that idea that's like, well this is not this is
probably not it, but it could be if you just
(20:54):
go on out on a ledge and try it out.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
That is also that's a difficult line because I think again,
when I was first starting out, I was writing just
what I wanted to write, just what I thought might
be good. And even though like I want to go
back and rewrite some of those songs because the create
the creative kernel, the core of it is really great,
(21:22):
but because I didn't understand the craft of it, it's
not great. It's not going anywhere like it's it needs
to come about twenty more percent to like get in anywhere.
So what I did spend a ton of time doing
and still do to this day is I am going
back to my inner nerd, which I am a big
(21:44):
time nerd. I will listen to usually over Christmas when
I have a bunch of time off, I will listen
to the top one hundred hit songs and I like
take them apart. I go, what's the tempo? I go,
what coreds are they using? What is the content? What
are they what are the what are the similarities between
(22:05):
all these and what are the differences between these? So
I try to like analyze all of them, and there
is there is nine Like ninety percent of the songs
are kind of around these you know, these sort of
like ideas or this chord structure or this tempo. Like
(22:28):
it's crazy, but if you really start like tearing things apart,
you'll find like a bunch of similarities. So it's like
people people want what's different, but they also need to
have a home, Like they need to like have one
toe on the ground where they're like okay, you know,
or they're not going to listen to it. It needs
(22:49):
to still have something that our ears are going to be.
It needs to be still be. I use the word accessible.
Still has to be accessible, still needs to make everybody
like want to sing with it. So, you know, starting
with like a kernel that's kind of maybe out there,
and write it, take the editor out of the room,
(23:10):
write it, and then two weeks later, typically I go
back with my editor cap on, and I go, wait
a minute, Okay, these two lines are not right. This chord,
although I thought it was cool that day, it's too
out there, and I'll usually kind of like it's over here,
and I usually kind of take that song like write
about here then and try to center it up a
(23:32):
little bit, but it's it's a bit of a dance,
like it's really different, and it's so I just think,
you know, you can't do that for every song. So
you know, hear me, the the core of the song,
the kernel, the creative like genius. It has to be
(23:53):
song of the year to start with, like the idea
has to be or it has to be if the
idea is like some by to love, like we've heard
that a thousand times. Morgan Wallen just drops and I'm
like I'm probably not gonna like this, and I'm like,
dang it, Yeah, why do I like this Because the
chords are freaking interesting, the production's crazy. It's like there's
(24:16):
a vibe. It's a vibe, and so you can get
away with murder if the title is the same we've
heard a thousand times, it's still very different, you know,
especially for him to sing it, you know. So it
just I don't know, there's it's so complicated.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah it is, and there's not really a rule book
for it. There's there kind of is, but there's kind
of not like I get. I'm more fascinated personally with
the song just as a song without the production and
all this stuff, and what makes that song stand out? Yeah,
(24:54):
by itself, just you know, vocal, instrument, take whatever, Like
what is it about this that pushed it into a
really crazy different production? Or sometimes production can take one
of those songs and totally ruin it, just depending on
what it's got. So I like all of those points.
(25:19):
I was listening to the work tape you sent me
of the song we're going to talk about, and I
liked hearing your voice without the production on it, because
I was listening to the final version all morning this morning,
and then I listened to the work tape, and something
about the rawness of your voice and the crappy audio
(25:43):
on the guitar made it really interesting to me, which
is why I do this podcast. But sometimes I wish
artists would just release a guitar vocal record or something
where it's just like, hey, let's take all the commercialism
stuff out and let's just hear it just raw. Let's
(26:05):
just hear you like who you are without all the
knobs and you know, filters. That's part of songwriting that
I think gets a little bit lost for sure, Oh
my gosh, and wanting to chase like a dream or stardom.
So I think that I'm kind of getting back to
the point of all of those things are great when
(26:28):
you're writing for commercial or you're writing to get song
of the year or whatever you're trying to get to.
But do you have any songs that are quote unquote
weird songs that you wouldn't say are not like these
will never be a song of the year, like you know,
crazy distant universe maybe, but you love them.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Oh yeah, I mean tons of them, you know. Yeah,
And you know, every now and then one of those
weird songs gets through, you know, every now and then,
but probably my very first cut was one of those,
to be honest. It was a song called the Box
and I wrote it with Chris Wallen and we I
(27:14):
think I pitched the work tape to my pluger at
the time, and they're like, this is a little bit
out there, you know, and but we believe like it,
like in the song like crazy and uh so I
was like, you know what, I'm gonna demo this and
if they if they don't okay and they don't want
to pay for it, I'm wanna pay for it because
I believe in it. Chris felt the same. So Bobby Terry,
(27:38):
who is an amazing producer, ended up doing a demo
for us, and I remember bringing it back and playing
it and the guys were like, oh my gosh. So
that case, that production like really kicked it over the
edge and it ended up that was my very first cut.
Diamond Rio put it on their record and but you know,
(28:00):
the whole the whole premise of the song is living
outside the Box. Yeah, And so it's funny to me
that that was my first cut, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yes, yes, And what did that feel like? Was that
like did you feel more like you found like a
breakthrough moment then or when you got a deal.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I think both, Yeah, I think both. Yeah, they were
you know, just like your first one and then you're
the first time you get a single and you know,
and I heard that on the radio that that was big.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
But You've written with a ton of people, George Straight,
Lee Brice, Terry Clark, Rodney Atkins, and the list just
keeps going.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
I have been blessed, Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I want to ask you if you have a favorite
of those of who you've written with. But I don't
know if I just put you on the spot with
that oh or not.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
That's that's tough because.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Stories like sometimes co writes can fall apart or they
just become something else or whatever.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
I don't really have I mean, so George Straight, I
never got to write with him, He just ended up
cutting cutting that song. But I have written with Lee
Brice and Terry Clark. I mean, I think one of
the funniest stories to me is probably the Terry Clark
song because that was my first radio single. It was
(29:28):
she doesn't do very many ballads, you know, and it
was something that really hit her as called she didn't
have time and kind of about I think she found
herself in the story her mom. She's very close to
her mom, and so you know, she records it, they
release it, she releases it to radio, and then much
(29:50):
after we started writing again, became kind of more friends,
you know, and she told me, I will never forget
that that song. The core changes every time, and she
was like, oh my gosh, I could not remember the lyrics.
She was like, she was like so like irritated some
(30:11):
nights because she's like, why are there so many words
in that song? So I think that's pretty funny to
like hear from the artists that cut it, you know,
And and then you know, it's always a surprise to me.
You know, here's the work tape, then here's the demo,
and then how does the artist, yeah, envision the song
and how they cut it, and you know it's usually
(30:33):
quite different than you think, you know, which is cool,
you know.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, it's like the I remember when Johnny Cash put
out all of those American recordings of Rick Rubin and
there were so many covers on that, yeah, and it
introduced like a whole world of people to nine inch
Nails and whatever. But the the songs he was doing
sounded nothing like nothing. He made him, you know, his
(31:00):
own Yeah. And that's that's the trick the trickery of
being an artist and a writer, because what if those
writers were just like, no, that's not what I was
intending for this song.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
I mean, every now and then that probably happens, I'm.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Sure, you know, but but like if Trent Resider was like, nah,
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Not today.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Do you want to talk about kissing?
Speaker 3 (31:26):
I assume you're talking about the song talking about the
song kiss Yes, that song has that song had vibe
on it since the day we wrote it. So John
Paul White and I were both at EMI. That was
both our first deals, and we met there and you know,
(31:47):
kind of just kept up with each other through the years.
And after the EMI deal, I move on to Curb.
He you know, he ends up having huge success with
the Civil Wars all that well at some point, and
I can't really remember if he was already in the
middle of that. I can't remember timing of it all.
(32:08):
But me and Chris Burgeoness one day went down to
Muscle Shoals and we're gonna write with John Paul And
he was like, Hey, let's write at Fame, so he knew, reckon, great,
We're gonna go write and Fame, which was already awesome,
Like that place is like.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
In Fame's like it really for our listeners that don't know,
it's like a really historic, iconic history studio.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Iconic, I mean some of the the oh yeah, I
mean just just some of the most iconic artists have
recorded there. And so I would mean the walls are
talking like there is so much that happened in that studio.
And so to have an opportunity to write in Studio
(32:54):
A right where Aretha Franklin saying, and you know, I
just was like, oh my gosh, like there's you know,
it's just one of those days I will just never forget.
So we're writing right in the center of Studio A
and and I can't even really remember like how the
song got started, but I was on the there's a
(33:15):
grand piano in there. I'm on the grand John Paul
is on his guitar, Chris is in there, and we
write this song kiss, and you know, it's we felt
like we had something that was emotional and a lot
of people could relate to it. It's, you know, a
relationship story. And I think it's a lot of people
(33:39):
feel that just you know, your emotional connection with somebody
over time, you have to nurture that, and if you don't,
people kind of back out of things and they find
themselves just not not in love anymore, you know. So
we kind of wrote it from the pe active of like,
(34:01):
you know, kiss like you want me, like like you
you have to have me, you know, and so, or
kiss me goodbye, yeah, or kiss me goodbye, you know,
and and I think I think people, you know, can
relate to that. So anyway, we leave that day we
felt like we had something. We ended up demoing it
(34:22):
pretty pop, and I remember Eric Hurt, who's now at Empire,
was my plugger at the time. He's like, hey, I
got this guy. He's he's gonna be a great producer
for this. He was, he was the right producer. It
immediately goes on hold for Katy Perry. Carrie Underwood's looking
at it like I was like, oh my gosh, this
(34:44):
is amazing. Well, as we all know as writers, things
go on hold and off hold very easily, and so
it just it never got caught. And so now it's
it's COVID and I'm thinking, like I'm want to cut
a record. I am. I have not done this before.
(35:05):
This is dumb, and I have the time. No, I'd
cut so many demos. I had been signed to a
singles deal at Curb, and we had cut so many
songs in hopes of like releasing one of those, but
never had cut a project. And so I just remember,
you know, calling John Paul and UH just going, you know, hey,
(35:25):
I I would like to cut Kiss. It's just one
of my favorites, you know, And uh, do you think
you could maybe sing some bgvs? And he goes, you know, yeah,
but what like what if we do a duet? And
I was like, yes, that would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So you're pretty pretty seasoned in that.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Oh my gosh. So uh then we end up cutting
the record and what was so cool? So Gabe and
Giddy and Kleine cut that record and their geniuses and
they're also like good friends of mine, and they want
their purest and they want the best for the song.
So they're like, you know what, we can do the
vocals here, or we can drive down and sing the
(36:07):
vocals where y'all wrote it. And I was like, yes,
that's what we're doing. So we run down to Fame
and they throw up the wall. It right in the
center of studio a right where we where we wrote it,
and the wall had like a little window so I
could see John Paul through the wall. And they went
(36:29):
old school. They did not put us in a booth.
And I'm singing my part and then he sings his part. Nope,
we cut it three times or four times live live,
and n we were done, and.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Their post production or it was all done right now.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Not much, not much.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And that's fun.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
It was so fun. And you know, so I obviously
had been preparing for the song and to be cut,
and so I've been singing a bunch and but to
see my peer and my friend and obviously, I mean,
everyone knows him, he's he's an amazing artist, but to
see him in action and see how pro he really is,
(37:08):
and like we would do cut number one and I'm
seeing him over there with a pencil and he's probably
sitting there going, okay, I need to like she's singing
it this way, so I need to go up a
little bit here down like whatever. He is such a
freaking pro that it just it was like it was gold,
(37:29):
Like it was just gold immediately.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
You know, I wish he was on the I wish
he was singing on the work tape.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah, I mean, you know you can hear him. Yeah,
he's playing, you know, and you can hear him on
the work tape. But I don't. I don't think we
thought it was gonna be a duet. Like we had
not thought about it in that way.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
You know what's the timeline between Actually, how about this? Yeah,
let's listen to the work tape before we get out
of work tape territory. Just reform, right, yep.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
We could drive a night, get out of this town,
change the scenery if that's what we really need. We
could hold on time till I'm already up, find a way.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Back where tonight's were long.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Maybe I'm missed your lord, kids like you want me,
Curs like you need me, kiss me straight up to
heaven tonight, Kirs like you love me. Time you touch me,
Kus be with them everything.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
I have me s.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Ok me good?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Want to touch the her feel it boom baby, see
amount of naked.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
Field day Gus.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Maybe you won't you be my misk eving night.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
Let me drink every job.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Take me had.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
My nestor kis like you want mecus bagging me me,
kiss me straight up to heaven tonight, kiss like you
love me the time you touch me cuse be with them.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
Everything you have side, Oh kiss me good bye, made
me believe that there's.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
More on this side of between into me like.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
Kiss like you want me, kiss that you need me.
Kiss means straight up to heaven tonight, kiss thank you,
love men, time your church me.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Kiss be with everything you haveing.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Side were everything you have said?
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Oh kiss me good b.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
O kise. Okay, So what's the timeline between when you
wrote it and when you cut it?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I mean potentially ten years. I can't remember exactly and
I can't remember like yeah, I remember the day like
so clear, but I can't remember like a specific year
or any of that. But probably ten years you know
it sat there.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
So do you think that I feel like I know
the answer to this for me because I just don't care.
But do you think that cutting a song like that
that was so close and was getting on hold you
cutting it? Does that mess things up for that song
if you wanted to pitch it again, or does it
help it?
Speaker 3 (41:50):
I hope it helps it, Like I know you hear
all these stories that like songwriters and artists who wrote
songs that are not like exactly for them. Uh, they'll
cut it in hopes that like somebody hears it, and
sometimes they do, you know, And so I guess yeah,
I mean it's out there. So like Katy Perry, if you.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Want to, yeah, I mean I could. I can definitely.
When you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, that
makes sense because once you get to the hook, it's
like one hundred pop.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
Yeah. If it was done pop, it would be it
would slay and pop.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah. So yeah, it's really great. It's a great song,
and the work tape is like I said before, it's
fun because your voice is not like a strictly country
voice to me.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
M h.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
It's like I would actually love to hear your voice
like rock and roll.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Oh cool.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
I think that would be like you would kill it
because you've got your tone is just not it's not
country to me, but but it works on country of course.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Yeah. No, I think I think you're straight up yeah,
and I.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Would like to hear you do just acoustic guitar vocal
do something like that.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Yeah. I have add several people say that to me recently.
And also say they would like to hear me cut
a live record.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Yeah cool, because your voice has these interesting dynamic tones
to it and it's it's not like this one straight thing.
Yeah I could. That's the when I heard the work tape,
That's was my immediate thought, Like, get a nice warn Martin, Yeah,
and put your voice over it and you've got it. Okay,
(43:29):
all right, maybe a steal. I don't know, it might
need a steal. You can give me a production credit
like Brandon Gang always I what do you have going
on now? You're doing six to one five Collective, which
is I've known Mike Logan for a really long time.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Yeah, that guys like pure gold, one.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Of the best writers. I mean he went before he
well I know it was before right when he got
his first deal. We were hanging out a bunch and
we would go all of our friends would hang out
and Mike would They'd always get Mike to play a song.
All of us would play songs, but the only time
(44:10):
everyone would shut up was when he started playing. Yep.
He just like controls the room and it's not like
he's trying to it just it's because his song and
his tone. Everything sucks you in it does.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
He's he is one of the best out there for sure.
When the six one five Collective was still in infancy,
my best friend Krista Wells knew that I had a
you know, kind of a writing pass with Michael, and
she was like, Hey, I don't mean to get in
your business, but I think you got to call Micha
(44:45):
Logan and I was like, gosh, you know, it's been
like eight years since I've talked to him. I don't
know if he's going to want to do like a band.
And she's like, nah, I just have this feeling, just
call him, and so he was. He was my first
call nice and it kind of went from there. But yeah,
these these guys are all like pro all like solo artists,
(45:06):
all have had either number one records or huge cuts
or you know, Michael has just a crazy amount of
like TV shows, commercials, like I mean that guy's like
sink Sink guy. So they all have like huge careers,
and then when we come together, it's very much like
(45:28):
Little Big Town or Fleetwood Mac And the six to
one to five Collective is starting to grow for sure,
like people are definitely seeing it as a band. I
think now and so every single year, our amount of
shows and really amount of everything is doubling. And so
(45:49):
this is year three. We just celebrated year three, and yeah,
so there's a lot of really great things coming in
twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
So yeah, it's very cool. I like the I kind
of miss some of the bands that have really tight
harmonies me too. It's not I'm not saying it's not
done anymore. Maybe I just I'm not looking hard enough
or something. But you guys have it and nail it.
(46:19):
Thank you. Everyone's super great. So you're you're diving into
management and what else?
Speaker 4 (46:29):
You know?
Speaker 3 (46:30):
I guess the management thing. I've I've been kind of
managing the six one five collective since the beginning, kind
of do the advancing and about half of the booking,
and so I really and then I've been doing a
lot of mentoring. Me and Chris Wells have something called artists,
and so we mentor and we have been mentoring songwriters
(46:52):
and artists of all kinds for about ten years now.
And so I think all those worlds kind of colliding.
And since I've been indie artists for so long, I
kind of just started kind of going, well, wait a minute,
I kind of do know about touring. I kind of
do know about licensing. I kind of do know about march.
(47:12):
You're kind to do like, and I started kind of
taking a little bit of an inventory and then what
I love to do and I love to help people,
you know, and so the management thing, I've been scared
to do it and kind of started doing some artist
development last year and found an artist that I love
and yeah, so I'm jumping in. We'll see cool.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
And what's the artists and stuff you're doing. What does
that look like if an artist wants to get involved
with your songwriter.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
Yeah, so they can find us on artist and dot org. Online,
they can find us on Instagram, artist dot and. But
we do like two or three songwriting retreats or online
things or in person like Nashville things per year. And
then Christa does a lot of like resilience, find your voice,
(48:09):
things that are not necessarily like creative, but things that
creatives need to be successful. Because we started taking inventory
and like a lot of the reasons that songwriters quit
or artists quit are reasons that we feel like if
(48:30):
someone can help them work through a couple of issues
that are kind of surrounding even like confidence, you know,
just easy confidence building exercises. And Chris is such a
beautiful soul and also a great coach. She's been doing
(48:50):
it her whole life. I think she's so good at that.
And so the two of us together, we I don't know,
we just I guess we just both have a heart
for like we just want to bring the next generation up,
you know, and try to pass on what we know,
and then sometimes they teach us and then thank god, you.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Know, I like this, I'm interested in it. So do
you have artists that come in you kind of I mean,
are you vetting these people that are you listening to
their music? Is it like something where you need to
be here or you need to you know, purchase this
package or whatever it is, and you can come and
(49:32):
we'll listen to your stuff and we'll give you advice
and we'll champion you or whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
It's all of it. So we have kind of beginnersate intermediates,
and you know, people that are kind of doing it
I would say, like for a living and then and
really all interest levels, because some people that we work
with they don't want to do it for a living, right,
but they also realize that they left, you know whatever
(49:57):
ten years ago, they left a huge which part of
them on the table when they became a doctor or
you know. So we actually work with a bunch of
different different people in different parts of their lives, I guess.
And so I think for some of the songwriting retreats, yeah,
we have we vet like, uh, if it's an intermediate level, yes,
(50:20):
you have to send songs in and you're kind of
accepted to go to the retreat because and not really
for anything, but we want everyone that's at the retreat
to kind of be at a similar level.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Yeah, you don't want it to be a joke, right,
and so.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
We don't want someone that is doing it for a
living to write with beginners, although sometimes that's amazing if
everyone is coming to their traveling to a retreat that
they've paid for. We want everyone to be at the
same level. So there's a beginning, intermediate, more advanced levels.
So we try to try to vet in that way,
I suppose. But we have free things where it's come
(50:58):
to be a part of this community. Christida's meetups, like
she's doing something with Drew Small in a week or
two where he is like a social media guy and
he helps people like build their platforms.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Oh that's smart and it's free. Because I hate doing that.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
Anybody can come.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I feel like a lot of artists hate doing that.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
Oh my gosh, it's like and then there's.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
Burnout, and then you feel like, well, if I'm not
doing it, then there's no point to even do this
at all.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
Yes, So the only thing I can say to that
is everybody hates doing it. I don't. Okay, there might
be five percent of people that love doing it and
they should be doing it for a living probably, but
everybody hates doing it. So let's start there. And so
I am a huge I have become a huge stickler
(51:45):
because I think I've seen too many of my friends
who are masterful songwriters and artists spend their life writing
their life's work. They finally do it, they finally record it,
finally spend all the money, and then it sits there
because they don't market it. And so I'm like, either
(52:07):
you have two choices. Either you have to pay someone
to do it for you. Awesome if you have those funds,
or you raise those funds. I would do it that
way personally if you're not good at it. But I
have trained my own brain, and I'm still not good
at it. Like I'm kind of garbage can novice. I'm
(52:27):
not good. I have friends that are like really good
at it. But Sarah Darling, who's she's better than labels,
She's great.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
But I.
Speaker 3 (52:38):
I've trained myself to go. Okay, even though you hate this,
move your brain. You have just spent your life. You know,
you're a ton of money and time making this album
or whatever it is. Like you're a visual artist. You
have to go market it. Figure out a way how
(52:59):
to trick your brain and make this a creative and
denver too, Like, sit down, make yourself a little planned
for the year, try and stick to it, and then
make it creative. Go go find a buddy to shoot
some pictures and videos. Make it as creative as you want.
Have fun with it, you know, I mean, like one
(53:20):
of our six to one five pictures, we just we
just shut out in the desert and literally me and
Siara Darling are we just it looks like we just
came from like burning man. Like I'm wearing like a
feather skirt. I would never wear a feather skirt probably,
but I'm like, you know what, why not? Why not?
I want to make this fun. Yeah, I'm gonna wear
(53:41):
a feather skirt. This is weird.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (53:43):
Content's weird, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
We talk about it all the time, me and my brother,
because it's like people don't really care. They just want
something to eat.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
Yeah, you know, I look like an ostrich if I'm.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
Over there scrolling. I don't care what it looks like.
If it engages me, that's what I want.
Speaker 3 (54:01):
If you see it, you're gonna be like, yeah, kind
of weird, kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
That doesn't mean you can you have to be lazy
about it or like, you know, you don't want to
put in the work to make it look good or fun.
But I do agree like people, I'm one of them
that overthinks that overthinks I'm posting and all of that, Like,
am I being too egocentric?
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Am I that it's so hard?
Speaker 2 (54:23):
You know?
Speaker 1 (54:24):
All of that stuff?
Speaker 3 (54:25):
Yeah, because you know, there is a line, you know.
But I think at the end of the day, and
this is I guess how I operate. Most of the time,
I have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, most I
am literally walking in the dark. Yeah, but I'm like, well,
if I don't move forward, then.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, is you're walking though.
Speaker 3 (54:48):
You know, and it's scary because like half the time
it's not the right thing, you know, or it's it's garbage.
But the other half the time, like I'm like, well, okay,
that was probably good that I forward and started doing something.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Yeah. So because what if you didn't. What if you
had the six to one to five collective idea and
you yeah, I told yourself it was Dominoe and you know,
Mike Clogan's not going to come be in it or whatever. Yeah,
I mean all those and then you sold it on
yourself and didn't do it.
Speaker 3 (55:16):
Yep, and uh And I think all those guys would say,
you know, we're having kind of the time of our
lives because no one is really overthinking anything. Yeah, and
I think that's why people are kind of like catching on.
Like I almost well, probably eighty percent of the places
we played this year, I've already asked this back for
(55:37):
next year, right, and so we're like, all right, great,
this is let's roll, you know, going.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yeah, that's awesome. So well, first of all, thanks for
being here. Do you have plans on making more music?
For you, like a record I do.
Speaker 3 (55:55):
I mean, I have one more I'm going to release,
uh probably the top of the year that's ready to go.
And then you know, so I'm constantly we're we're going
to be really releasing a lot for six to one
five Collective next year. So if I release, it'll be
kind of like in windows.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
Do you think it's easier to be like in a
group or band than do your own.
Speaker 3 (56:19):
I do, because One, it's it's a lot more fun
we one Mike Logan is so freaking funny, Aaron Goodman,
Jeremy Spray, our Drummerremy They're they're hysterical. So like, oh
my gosh, I mean, you get those guys in a
room you're not you are barely singing or note like
(56:40):
I'm laughing more that I'm singing. And so one, it's
just so fun. Two like everybody has a chance to
sort of shine. And then you kind of like can
sit back and have a cocktail, you know what I'm saying,
Like it's just the show is not on you. It
doesn't like if you're sick, great three of us are
going to carry it like it's okay, Like you're having
(57:03):
a bad day. Great, somebody somebody can step up, you know,
and we literally change our setless kind of if somebody, hey,
I want to do this song tonight. Okay, awesome, great.
You know, like they're just is not we don't really
like have very many rules and so it's it's just
very authentic.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I love that. Yeah, I think that's cool. I think
I would have had more questions around the fact that
you had never put out your own stuff before. I
didn't realize that. So that's fun. I'm glad you're doing that. Yeah, congratulations,
thank you. Thank It's only been what four years of
you doing that?
Speaker 3 (57:41):
Yeah, only four I mean, yeah, so well I think
you should keep doing it. Well, thank you. I think
I will, Like I think I want to do music
till I dropped dead because you have to. Why not?
Speaker 4 (57:54):
You have to?
Speaker 1 (57:54):
You know, it's a gift. It's like it's like hiding
some valuable jewel. You know. Yeah, I'm not doing it.
Speaker 3 (58:03):
I would say, I'm gonna be like the weird eighty
year old lady you know, with the gray hair, like singing,
probably singing at the community center. It's gonna be weird.
It's gonna be super weird.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
It's gonna be weird with your feather skirt and your
eighty I probably will, why not? Nicole Wits Thank you, Stadu.
(58:37):
Work Tapes is produced by me Brandon Carswell. Special thanks
to Nicole Witt. For more information on Nicole, visit nicole
Witt dot com to find out more about artist, and
visit artistan dot org. This episode was recorded at Soundstage
Studios in Nashville, Tennessee. Special thanks to Nick Austrey and
(59:01):
Black River Entertainment. Video and editing by Sean Carswell. And
don't forget to like and subscribe to Work Tapes Wherever
you're listening ull lean into me like
Hey everyone, Brandon here with the Work Tapes podcast. I
wanted to take a second and tell you about artist
and dot Org. If there's one thing I love about
writing in Nashville, it's the community it creates. But let's
face it, we all need each other, and artists are
not just artists anymore where songwriters, we're content creators, marketing managers,
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booking agents, social media experts, and we're doing it all
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it by ourselves. It can be discouraging and it can
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writing prompts, annual songwriters retreats, coaching, and a whole lot
more so, whether you're a professional artist and you're feeling stuck,
or you're an up and coming artist and not sure
where to start, or you're just feeling overwhelmed by it all.
Visit artists and dot org and learn how you can
become part of a movement of people coming alive through
(01:26):
creativity and authentic connection. Artist and dot org let him
know Brandon from Work Tape, Simyah, Welcome to Work Tapes.
This is a podcast where we tear our songs. Why
(01:48):
was the song written, what's it about? What's the context
and emotion behind it? Where were you at the time,
what were you going through? How did certain minds come
to you? What's the inspiration? How long did it take
to write? I'm Brandon Carswell and I'm fascinated for songwriting
and how songs are built from the ground up. It's
(02:09):
easy to hear a full production song on the radio
and dismiss its origin story. I want to hear the
rough draft of the song for the Work Tapes. I
want to explore the very beginning, how songs that move
us and make us move are born.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
We could drive all day, get out of.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
This town, change a scene. Who is that's what we
really need?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
We could hold on to all right to the radio,
find a Way back when night one.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Maybe you miss your.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Jeez luck you me jeeves, lucky me jees mister lovel
tonight jeez like you men.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Welcome to Work Tapes everyone. My name is Brandon Carswell
and I'm joined today by my friend Nicole Witty. How's
it going good? Good?
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Actually?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Thanks for coming, Yeah, thank you. Since I started this podcast,
which was a couple of years ago, I wanted to
have you on. I can't remember how we met. Actually,
do you remember where we met?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Not certain? Maybe through Austin Moody, but.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Was definitely through Awesome, But I just don't the place.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Maybe like one of the recording sessions or something. Yeah,
oh potentially, Yes, it was in Barry Hill in the studio.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I forget the name of that studio now, gosh, now
I forget the name of the guy who owned it
to Prampton, Peter Frampton. Yes, yes, yes, we did.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
It was yeah, it was the Christmas thing I think, right, Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Is that a year or two ago? Yeah, so yeah,
that's where we met. And then I listened to your
music as you released stuff out and I was like,
I've got to have it on. You're a great songwriter, singer, artist,
all of that stuff. Do you want to tell our
listeners kind of just like a little bit of backstory,
who you are, where you come from, Sure, what you're
(04:47):
doing in this world, Sure you have it. How much
time you have all day?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
From Springfield, Missouri and have been you know, playing instruments
and doing music. So I was born basically just just
you know, went to school for it, major to music
and moved to Nashville and jumped in like day three,
(05:13):
like just started playing out like every single night and
soaking in all of the amazing songs and all that,
and realized very quickly that my songs were garbage and
I had a long long way to go to like
the bar. I knew where the bar was pretty quickly,
(05:34):
and and so yeah, just started writing every single day,
sometimes twice a day, and eventually got signed to EMI
Music Publishing, and then Curb after that, and then Universal
(05:54):
Brentwood Benson, which was my last like pub deal, and
then which eventually became Capital CMG. And then after that,
my my old band was signed to a record deal
with Keith Stiegel at Dreamline Entertainment and we did that
and so it's been it's been a long, very interesting,
(06:20):
cool road. And then now I have the six point
five Collective, which we tour a bunch and write a
bunch and a mentor a bunch, and I guess the
newest thing is I'm jumping into the management world.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So yeah, yeah, I have a.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
New artist that I love, and so that's cool. Yeah,
walking down the road, A walking down the road.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So that's fun. When you say you majored in music,
where did you go to school for that?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, so I started at Vandy. I was on a
violin scholarship, and I realized that it was very classical
and I was also going to have to practice about
fourteen hours a day, right, and didn't think that that
was my path.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So it wasn't It wasn't like music business.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
It was no.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
It was at that time, like I didn't know Belmont
even existed, or I probably would have gone there.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well, I think a lot of people don't know like
you can major to music, Like I didn't know that
when I was in high school.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, So I mean I just after that first year,
I knew I didn't want to like pursue like classical violin,
So I transferred back to my state school University of
Missouri and finished there, but more of a general music degree,
I suppose. And then, you know, just I had been
writing songs since like high school, I guess, and I knew,
(07:37):
I knew I really wanted to pursue that.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, so well let's go there, Like what brought you
into wanted to write songs? Were you like a little
kid or you a teenager?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
No? I was a teenager, and I really don't even
know why. I would practice for hours and hours. It
was kind of that like kind of weird dorky kid
that was like always practicing. And I just started writing
a song one day, and and that's how it started.
I was sixteen, you know, and I still writing songs.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Like you don't have anything that kind of triggered that
I don't.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I was guitar, piano, It was.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
On piano and my dad, so my grandparents, I never
met him. They were grassers in Missouri. They had a
traveling family band, and my dad was the baby of
you know, of that group. He never was like in
the in that group per se. But he went on
to be a square dancer on the Ozarjubilee Show, which
(08:36):
was the first like country music national televised show outside
of Nashville. And so there's music, you know, in my blood.
And my dad when I wrote that first song, he uh,
I don't know, I really don't even know why he
felt so compelled, but he took me down to a
(08:56):
studio in Springfield, Missouri and we recorded it, which I
don't know why my dad felt like we needed to
do that. I don't know why, you know, I have
no idea, like something I need to kind of ask him,
I guess. But so we recorded four or five songs
with a guy named Nick Sibley and great musician, great songwriter,
(09:18):
great all the things. But he gave me my start
in the studio and kind of taught me how to
how to do that. So yeah, and then you know,
moved to Nashville and just jumped in.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
But music in the blood, music in the family, for sure.
Were your parents writing songs?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
They weren't, so it kind of skipped a generation. My
dad started piano lessons. I was like six, and he
walked me down to her name was Missus Hubbard's house.
It was five five doors down and we started together.
And then he was working so much he couldn't like
really practice, but he introduced me to music, and then
(09:58):
the orchestra kind of came through my elementary school and
I was like, I think I want to play violin,
Like just came home with that, and my dad had
his dad's fiddle. That's the only thing he really kind
of has of his own father's and he was going
to put it in a glass case above our living
(10:18):
room couch, and I was like, Dad, I think I
want to play this, you know. And so that's still
the instrument that every single night.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
It is.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
So that's a pretty old How do you keep up
with that thing? Worked?
Speaker 4 (10:34):
You know?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
From time to time. I do have it worked on,
but it is it's one hundred and one years old,
and it sounds, you know, it's kind of like fine wine,
you know, really great instruments age really well if you
care for him.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So right, yeah, okay, I'm still wanting to tackle why
you wrote your first song.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
I don't really know. I don't really know.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
I mean, I just I just are you listening to
some some artists or some band and you were like
I want to do that?
Speaker 3 (11:04):
I don't. I don't remember that. I fell out, like
it just fell out and I just started.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I was like, oh, oh, well, this is kind of fun,
Like if you weren't writing poetry or anything like that,
I mean not.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Really, I don't really know, Okay, Like it literally just
came out one day. Yeah, and then I didn't stop.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Like, so you kept writing all throughout? And then was
there a point where you go, this is what I
want to do?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Yeah? I mean I think towards the latter part of
my college I was like, wait a minute, I I
think there is something to this, you know, but I
didn't really like know you could do that for a living,
Like I didn't know that was a real thing. And
then I started like investigating. And after my first year
in Vandy, I stayed in intern at Warner Brothers. And
(11:53):
I was down the tape room and I was like
a nerd. Every day I was down there, I was
like listening to all of these unbelievable songs before they
were cut. Yeah, and I could almost go, well, this
is a hit, this is a hit, this is a hit.
So then two or three years later, hearing some of
those that I thought was you know, they were hits?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Were there any artists you remember were gosh? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
I mean like you know, one song I can't really
remember the title, I may I was called The River
I can't remember, but it was in the catalog and
Colin Rake ended up cutting it. But yeah, I mean,
you know it was kind of like I kind of
came in like mid to really follow country music, probably
(12:38):
mid nineties, and then was signed then in Nashville two
thousand and one, so you know, probably six years after
I really started like jumping in and going Okay, whoa,
this is crazy cool?
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Were so were you chasing that at that time, like
before you got signed, that's what you wanted, that's what
you're going after.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Is that why you did the internship at Warner Brothers?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, I mean I was always curious about it, Like
I know, again, I didn't know that this career existed,
and once I started meeting some of the songwriters, they
were fascinating. They're fascinating people, yeah, I mean, all creatives are.
I mean, it's just like the vision that they have
and the language that they use, and I mean I
(13:26):
just was like captivated, Like I literally was like a
kid in a candy store, Like it was so cool.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, so cool. Was there something about songwriting and songwriters
in that whole world that surprised you about how these
people were something you didn't expect.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, I mean I think for country music, you know
a lot of the cowboys and the good old boys,
and they were like freaking Hemingway, right, but they are
I'm like the middle of nowhere Kentucky, you know, and
they all moved to Nashville with this kind of this
(14:05):
crazy dreament like not knowing what the world they were
doing and not really knowing it was a career either.
But I was always just like blown away that these
were not just like I think I'm gonna write a song, No,
they were like this was like these were poets. They
were they use language different than Hemingway would, but they
(14:27):
were poets, like true poets.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
So you thought it was going to be like these
are more simple I say this kindly. You thought there's
going to be more simple minded creativity going on maybe,
and and.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
That is that was like on me until I realized
like the most simple songs of course, like the general
public are like, well, that's so easy to write. I
could totally do that. No, really you can't, Like that's
really like some of these guys just every single word
matters and and they know it and they're true poets.
(15:01):
And so I was absolutely like blown away when I
got here by by some of the people. I was
surrounded by just my peers, you know. It was so cool.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, because some of these guys, some of these people
will write, they're not just like a lot of co
writes will be like, what two hours long? An hour long?
But some serious writers are writing for ten hours. Oh yeah,
they're leaving and there's no break or a break, you
know whatever, and that's andy. They leave with something great.
(15:35):
Or they'll be twenty writers on one song yea, so
they can make it perfect. And that's kind of part
of the machine, I guess. But as you're coming up
chasing this and then you get signed right before that,
there's like probably a lot of creativity going on. You're
not totally second guessing everything you're writing. You're having fun.
(15:58):
Does the professionalism part of after you get a record
deal or publishing deal, does that stifle creativity at all
for you? Or did it?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
It didn't for me. It just it probably lit more
even more of a fire underneath me, like I just
because then I was like looking around going, oh my gosh,
how did how did I get you know, how did
I get here? And you know, I just again like
I knew kind of where the bar was, and I
(16:30):
I just I was going to get there like no
matter what, Like I was going to figure it out.
And I had a long way to come, like I
had a long I had a lot to learn about
just the craft.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Well, let's talk about what we were kind of discussing
before we hit record was learning and it may have
taken a while, I don't know, but learning how to
take other people's advice and kind of folding it and
keeping yourself yourself, like keeping you unique while adding in
(17:06):
or listening to someone else's advice and not taking their
advice and going, Okay, I'm going to do that one
hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
That was a tough one when I first moved to
town because of just the way I'm built. I you know,
I always think that other people's ideas are better than mine,
and so for probably you know, even ten years in
the business, I thought everybody's ideas were better than mine,
which so I would automatically just go, yeah, you're you're right,
(17:36):
let's let's let's do it this way. But I would also,
like I remember some rights that I would love to
have those back now because I would. I was kind
of I went in with these huge writers. I was
almost scared, like to like be myself and like really
kind of dive in and be be unafraid because if
(17:57):
you're in the writing room, you have to be super vulnerable,
because you have to be like, you're gonna throw ninety
nine things out that are garbage, but that one, yeah,
you know, that one could change everything for everybody in
the room and if you don't say it. So I
wouldn't say it, you know, I wouldn't say that one
(18:17):
thing because I was too afraid of the ninety nine
that we're gonna be just garbage.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
So I went like that for probably ten years and
then just started like undoing a lot of that, and
you know, so you know, people always ask me about
that and a mentor a lot of new songwriters, and
it's like, you really do need to stay true to yourself.
You really do need to also listen to what veterans
(18:43):
are telling you because they do know. But you can't
lose the kernel of the creativity because what they need
is the kernel of creativity. They don't have that they've
written like thousands and thousands of songs and the one
couple of lines, the way that you turn the phrase
(19:03):
or the way that you your melody is they don't
have that. You need to bring that to them. So,
you know, it's kind of a marriage a lot a
lot of times between figuring out like what you need
to bend on and what you need to you know.
So I think you know, the best way to go
about it is just kind of going in with grace
(19:23):
and kind of open handed, and then if something is
really like if you do need to speak up and go,
you know, hey, guys, this is I always say this
is probably not it. Yeah, I preface that. I say
that probably twenty five times in a co write because
I know it's probably not it, but I know it's
going to get.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Us where we're going, right, you know, stepping stone.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
It's stepping stones. And I didn't understand that like when
I first started.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
So what in that regard what keeps the song or
what keeps songwriting unique? So as your men's wearing other
writers now and you've just you've been in this game
for so long, it's easy to want to copy kind
of industry fads as a writer and go, well, I
could write a song similar to this big song that's
(20:10):
out now, maybe I could get it landed with somebody
else or do it myself. And I feel like, personally,
for me, that's a bit of a trap, and I
don't I not that it's a total sellout because I
get the thing, like, you want to make something that
(20:32):
people want, and they obviously want what is currently popular.
So how do you engage both of those things and
keep your writing super unique because at some point the
fad is going to change. Oh yeah, and maybe you're
the one. Yeah, you might be the one that there's
that idea that's like, well this is not this is
probably not it, but it could be if you just
(20:54):
go on out on a ledge and try it out.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
That is also that's a difficult line because I think again,
when I was first starting out, I was writing just
what I wanted to write, just what I thought might
be good. And even though like I want to go
back and rewrite some of those songs because the create
the creative kernel, the core of it is really great,
(21:22):
but because I didn't understand the craft of it, it's
not great. It's not going anywhere like it's it needs
to come about twenty more percent to like get in anywhere.
So what I did spend a ton of time doing
and still do to this day is I am going
back to my inner nerd, which I am a big
(21:44):
time nerd. I will listen to usually over Christmas when
I have a bunch of time off, I will listen
to the top one hundred hit songs and I like
take them apart. I go, what's the tempo? I go,
what coreds are they using? What is the content? What
are they what are the what are the similarities between
(22:05):
all these and what are the differences between these? So
I try to like analyze all of them, and there
is there is nine Like ninety percent of the songs
are kind of around these you know, these sort of
like ideas or this chord structure or this tempo. Like
(22:28):
it's crazy, but if you really start like tearing things apart,
you'll find like a bunch of similarities. So it's like
people people want what's different, but they also need to
have a home, Like they need to like have one
toe on the ground where they're like okay, you know,
or they're not going to listen to it. It needs
(22:49):
to still have something that our ears are going to be.
It needs to be still be. I use the word accessible.
Still has to be accessible, still needs to make everybody
like want to sing with it. So, you know, starting
with like a kernel that's kind of maybe out there,
and write it, take the editor out of the room,
(23:10):
write it, and then two weeks later, typically I go
back with my editor cap on, and I go, wait
a minute, Okay, these two lines are not right. This chord,
although I thought it was cool that day, it's too
out there, and I'll usually kind of like it's over here,
and I usually kind of take that song like write
about here then and try to center it up a
(23:32):
little bit, but it's it's a bit of a dance,
like it's really different, and it's so I just think,
you know, you can't do that for every song. So
you know, hear me, the the core of the song,
the kernel, the creative like genius. It has to be
(23:53):
song of the year to start with, like the idea
has to be or it has to be if the
idea is like some by to love, like we've heard
that a thousand times. Morgan Wallen just drops and I'm
like I'm probably not gonna like this, and I'm like,
dang it, Yeah, why do I like this Because the
chords are freaking interesting, the production's crazy. It's like there's
(24:16):
a vibe. It's a vibe, and so you can get
away with murder if the title is the same we've
heard a thousand times, it's still very different, you know,
especially for him to sing it, you know. So it
just I don't know, there's it's so complicated.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah it is, and there's not really a rule book
for it. There's there kind of is, but there's kind
of not like I get. I'm more fascinated personally with
the song just as a song without the production and
all this stuff, and what makes that song stand out? Yeah,
(24:54):
by itself, just you know, vocal, instrument, take whatever, Like
what is it about this that pushed it into a
really crazy different production? Or sometimes production can take one
of those songs and totally ruin it, just depending on
what it's got. So I like all of those points.
(25:19):
I was listening to the work tape you sent me
of the song we're going to talk about, and I
liked hearing your voice without the production on it, because
I was listening to the final version all morning this morning,
and then I listened to the work tape, and something
about the rawness of your voice and the crappy audio
(25:43):
on the guitar made it really interesting to me, which
is why I do this podcast. But sometimes I wish
artists would just release a guitar vocal record or something
where it's just like, hey, let's take all the commercialism
stuff out and let's just hear it just raw. Let's
(26:05):
just hear you like who you are without all the
knobs and you know, filters. That's part of songwriting that
I think gets a little bit lost for sure, Oh
my gosh, and wanting to chase like a dream or stardom.
So I think that I'm kind of getting back to
the point of all of those things are great when
(26:28):
you're writing for commercial or you're writing to get song
of the year or whatever you're trying to get to.
But do you have any songs that are quote unquote
weird songs that you wouldn't say are not like these
will never be a song of the year, like you know,
crazy distant universe maybe, but you love them.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Oh yeah, I mean tons of them, you know. Yeah,
And you know, every now and then one of those
weird songs gets through, you know, every now and then,
but probably my very first cut was one of those,
to be honest. It was a song called the Box
and I wrote it with Chris Wallen and we I
(27:14):
think I pitched the work tape to my pluger at
the time, and they're like, this is a little bit
out there, you know, and but we believe like it,
like in the song like crazy and uh so I
was like, you know what, I'm gonna demo this and
if they if they don't okay and they don't want
to pay for it, I'm wanna pay for it because
I believe in it. Chris felt the same. So Bobby Terry,
(27:38):
who is an amazing producer, ended up doing a demo
for us, and I remember bringing it back and playing
it and the guys were like, oh my gosh. So
that case, that production like really kicked it over the
edge and it ended up that was my very first cut.
Diamond Rio put it on their record and but you know,
(28:00):
the whole the whole premise of the song is living
outside the Box. Yeah, And so it's funny to me
that that was my first cut, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yes, yes, And what did that feel like? Was that
like did you feel more like you found like a
breakthrough moment then or when you got a deal.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I think both, Yeah, I think both. Yeah, they were
you know, just like your first one and then you're
the first time you get a single and you know,
and I heard that on the radio that that was big.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
But You've written with a ton of people, George Straight,
Lee Brice, Terry Clark, Rodney Atkins, and the list just
keeps going.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
I have been blessed, Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I want to ask you if you have a favorite
of those of who you've written with. But I don't
know if I just put you on the spot with
that oh or not.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
That's that's tough because.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Stories like sometimes co writes can fall apart or they
just become something else or whatever.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
I don't really have I mean, so George Straight, I
never got to write with him, He just ended up
cutting cutting that song. But I have written with Lee
Brice and Terry Clark. I mean, I think one of
the funniest stories to me is probably the Terry Clark
song because that was my first radio single. It was
(29:28):
she doesn't do very many ballads, you know, and it
was something that really hit her as called she didn't
have time and kind of about I think she found
herself in the story her mom. She's very close to
her mom, and so you know, she records it, they
release it, she releases it to radio, and then much
(29:50):
after we started writing again, became kind of more friends,
you know, and she told me, I will never forget
that that song. The core changes every time, and she
was like, oh my gosh, I could not remember the lyrics.
She was like, she was like so like irritated some
(30:11):
nights because she's like, why are there so many words
in that song? So I think that's pretty funny to
like hear from the artists that cut it, you know,
And and then you know, it's always a surprise to me.
You know, here's the work tape, then here's the demo,
and then how does the artist, yeah, envision the song
and how they cut it, and you know it's usually
(30:33):
quite different than you think, you know, which is cool,
you know.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, it's like the I remember when Johnny Cash put
out all of those American recordings of Rick Rubin and
there were so many covers on that, yeah, and it
introduced like a whole world of people to nine inch
Nails and whatever. But the the songs he was doing
sounded nothing like nothing. He made him, you know, his
(31:00):
own Yeah. And that's that's the trick the trickery of
being an artist and a writer, because what if those
writers were just like, no, that's not what I was
intending for this song.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
I mean, every now and then that probably happens, I'm.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Sure, you know, but but like if Trent Resider was like, nah,
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Not today.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Do you want to talk about kissing?
Speaker 3 (31:26):
I assume you're talking about the song talking about the
song kiss Yes, that song has that song had vibe
on it since the day we wrote it. So John
Paul White and I were both at EMI. That was
both our first deals, and we met there and you know,
(31:47):
kind of just kept up with each other through the years.
And after the EMI deal, I move on to Curb.
He you know, he ends up having huge success with
the Civil Wars all that well at some point, and
I can't really remember if he was already in the
middle of that. I can't remember timing of it all.
(32:08):
But me and Chris Burgeoness one day went down to
Muscle Shoals and we're gonna write with John Paul And
he was like, Hey, let's write at Fame, so he knew, reckon, great,
We're gonna go write and Fame, which was already awesome,
Like that place is like.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
In Fame's like it really for our listeners that don't know,
it's like a really historic, iconic history studio.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Iconic, I mean some of the the oh yeah, I
mean just just some of the most iconic artists have
recorded there. And so I would mean the walls are
talking like there is so much that happened in that studio.
And so to have an opportunity to write in Studio
(32:54):
A right where Aretha Franklin saying, and you know, I
just was like, oh my gosh, like there's you know,
it's just one of those days I will just never forget.
So we're writing right in the center of Studio A
and and I can't even really remember like how the
song got started, but I was on the there's a
(33:15):
grand piano in there. I'm on the grand John Paul
is on his guitar, Chris is in there, and we
write this song kiss, and you know, it's we felt
like we had something that was emotional and a lot
of people could relate to it. It's, you know, a
relationship story. And I think it's a lot of people
(33:39):
feel that just you know, your emotional connection with somebody
over time, you have to nurture that, and if you don't,
people kind of back out of things and they find
themselves just not not in love anymore, you know. So
we kind of wrote it from the pe active of like,
(34:01):
you know, kiss like you want me, like like you
you have to have me, you know, and so, or
kiss me goodbye, yeah, or kiss me goodbye, you know,
and and I think I think people, you know, can
relate to that. So anyway, we leave that day we
felt like we had something. We ended up demoing it
(34:22):
pretty pop, and I remember Eric Hurt, who's now at Empire,
was my plugger at the time. He's like, hey, I
got this guy. He's he's gonna be a great producer
for this. He was, he was the right producer. It
immediately goes on hold for Katy Perry. Carrie Underwood's looking
at it like I was like, oh my gosh, this
(34:44):
is amazing. Well, as we all know as writers, things
go on hold and off hold very easily, and so
it just it never got caught. And so now it's
it's COVID and I'm thinking, like I'm want to cut
a record. I am. I have not done this before.
(35:05):
This is dumb, and I have the time. No, I'd
cut so many demos. I had been signed to a
singles deal at Curb, and we had cut so many
songs in hopes of like releasing one of those, but
never had cut a project. And so I just remember,
you know, calling John Paul and UH just going, you know, hey,
(35:25):
I I would like to cut Kiss. It's just one
of my favorites, you know, And uh, do you think
you could maybe sing some bgvs? And he goes, you know, yeah,
but what like what if we do a duet? And
I was like, yes, that would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So you're pretty pretty seasoned in that.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Oh my gosh. So uh then we end up cutting
the record and what was so cool? So Gabe and
Giddy and Kleine cut that record and their geniuses and
they're also like good friends of mine, and they want
their purest and they want the best for the song.
So they're like, you know what, we can do the
vocals here, or we can drive down and sing the
(36:07):
vocals where y'all wrote it. And I was like, yes,
that's what we're doing. So we run down to Fame
and they throw up the wall. It right in the
center of studio a right where we where we wrote it,
and the wall had like a little window so I
could see John Paul through the wall. And they went
(36:29):
old school. They did not put us in a booth.
And I'm singing my part and then he sings his part. Nope,
we cut it three times or four times live live,
and n we were done, and.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Their post production or it was all done right now.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Not much, not much.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And that's fun.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
It was so fun. And you know, so I obviously
had been preparing for the song and to be cut,
and so I've been singing a bunch and but to
see my peer and my friend and obviously, I mean,
everyone knows him, he's he's an amazing artist, but to
see him in action and see how pro he really is,
(37:08):
and like we would do cut number one and I'm
seeing him over there with a pencil and he's probably
sitting there going, okay, I need to like she's singing
it this way, so I need to go up a
little bit here down like whatever. He is such a
freaking pro that it just it was like it was gold,
(37:29):
Like it was just gold immediately.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
You know, I wish he was on the I wish
he was singing on the work tape.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah, I mean, you know you can hear him. Yeah,
he's playing, you know, and you can hear him on
the work tape. But I don't. I don't think we
thought it was gonna be a duet. Like we had
not thought about it in that way.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
You know what's the timeline between Actually, how about this? Yeah,
let's listen to the work tape before we get out
of work tape territory. Just reform, right, yep.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
We could drive a night, get out of this town,
change the scenery if that's what we really need. We
could hold on time till I'm already up, find a way.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Back where tonight's were long.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Maybe I'm missed your lord, kids like you want me,
Curs like you need me, kiss me straight up to
heaven tonight, Kirs like you love me. Time you touch me,
Kus be with them everything.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
I have me s.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Ok me good?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Want to touch the her feel it boom baby, see
amount of naked.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
Field day Gus.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Maybe you won't you be my misk eving night.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
Let me drink every job.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Take me had.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
My nestor kis like you want mecus bagging me me,
kiss me straight up to heaven tonight, kiss like you
love me the time you touch me cuse be with them.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
Everything you have side, Oh kiss me good bye, made
me believe that there's.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
More on this side of between into me like.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
Kiss like you want me, kiss that you need me.
Kiss means straight up to heaven tonight, kiss thank you,
love men, time your church me.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Kiss be with everything you haveing.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Side were everything you have said?
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Oh kiss me good b.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
O kise. Okay, So what's the timeline between when you
wrote it and when you cut it?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I mean potentially ten years. I can't remember exactly and
I can't remember like yeah, I remember the day like
so clear, but I can't remember like a specific year
or any of that. But probably ten years you know
it sat there.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
So do you think that I feel like I know
the answer to this for me because I just don't care.
But do you think that cutting a song like that
that was so close and was getting on hold you
cutting it? Does that mess things up for that song
if you wanted to pitch it again, or does it
help it?
Speaker 3 (41:50):
I hope it helps it, Like I know you hear
all these stories that like songwriters and artists who wrote
songs that are not like exactly for them. Uh, they'll
cut it in hopes that like somebody hears it, and
sometimes they do, you know, And so I guess yeah,
I mean it's out there. So like Katy Perry, if you.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Want to, yeah, I mean I could. I can definitely.
When you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, that
makes sense because once you get to the hook, it's
like one hundred pop.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
Yeah. If it was done pop, it would be it
would slay and pop.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah. So yeah, it's really great. It's a great song,
and the work tape is like I said before, it's
fun because your voice is not like a strictly country
voice to me.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
M h.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
It's like I would actually love to hear your voice
like rock and roll.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Oh cool.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
I think that would be like you would kill it
because you've got your tone is just not it's not
country to me, but but it works on country of course.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Yeah. No, I think I think you're straight up yeah,
and I.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Would like to hear you do just acoustic guitar vocal
do something like that.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Yeah. I have add several people say that to me recently.
And also say they would like to hear me cut
a live record.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Yeah cool, because your voice has these interesting dynamic tones
to it and it's it's not like this one straight thing.
Yeah I could. That's the when I heard the work tape,
That's was my immediate thought, Like, get a nice warn Martin, Yeah,
and put your voice over it and you've got it. Okay,
(43:29):
all right, maybe a steal. I don't know, it might
need a steal. You can give me a production credit
like Brandon Gang always I what do you have going
on now? You're doing six to one five Collective, which
is I've known Mike Logan for a really long time.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Yeah, that guys like pure gold, one.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Of the best writers. I mean he went before he
well I know it was before right when he got
his first deal. We were hanging out a bunch and
we would go all of our friends would hang out
and Mike would They'd always get Mike to play a song.
All of us would play songs, but the only time
(44:10):
everyone would shut up was when he started playing. Yep.
He just like controls the room and it's not like
he's trying to it just it's because his song and
his tone. Everything sucks you in it does.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
He's he is one of the best out there for sure.
When the six one five Collective was still in infancy,
my best friend Krista Wells knew that I had a
you know, kind of a writing pass with Michael, and
she was like, Hey, I don't mean to get in
your business, but I think you got to call Micha
(44:45):
Logan and I was like, gosh, you know, it's been
like eight years since I've talked to him. I don't
know if he's going to want to do like a band.
And she's like, nah, I just have this feeling, just
call him, and so he was. He was my first
call nice and it kind of went from there. But yeah,
these these guys are all like pro all like solo artists,
(45:06):
all have had either number one records or huge cuts
or you know, Michael has just a crazy amount of
like TV shows, commercials, like I mean that guy's like
sink Sink guy. So they all have like huge careers,
and then when we come together, it's very much like
(45:28):
Little Big Town or Fleetwood Mac And the six to
one to five Collective is starting to grow for sure,
like people are definitely seeing it as a band. I
think now and so every single year, our amount of
shows and really amount of everything is doubling. And so
(45:49):
this is year three. We just celebrated year three, and yeah,
so there's a lot of really great things coming in
twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
So yeah, it's very cool. I like the I kind
of miss some of the bands that have really tight
harmonies me too. It's not I'm not saying it's not
done anymore. Maybe I just I'm not looking hard enough
or something. But you guys have it and nail it.
(46:19):
Thank you. Everyone's super great. So you're you're diving into
management and what else?
Speaker 4 (46:29):
You know?
Speaker 3 (46:30):
I guess the management thing. I've I've been kind of
managing the six one five collective since the beginning, kind
of do the advancing and about half of the booking,
and so I really and then I've been doing a
lot of mentoring. Me and Chris Wells have something called artists,
and so we mentor and we have been mentoring songwriters
(46:52):
and artists of all kinds for about ten years now.
And so I think all those worlds kind of colliding.
And since I've been indie artists for so long, I
kind of just started kind of going, well, wait a minute,
I kind of do know about touring. I kind of
do know about licensing. I kind of do know about march.
(47:12):
You're kind to do like, and I started kind of
taking a little bit of an inventory and then what
I love to do and I love to help people,
you know, and so the management thing, I've been scared
to do it and kind of started doing some artist
development last year and found an artist that I love
and yeah, so I'm jumping in. We'll see cool.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
And what's the artists and stuff you're doing. What does
that look like if an artist wants to get involved
with your songwriter.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
Yeah, so they can find us on artist and dot org. Online,
they can find us on Instagram, artist dot and. But
we do like two or three songwriting retreats or online
things or in person like Nashville things per year. And
then Christa does a lot of like resilience, find your voice,
(48:09):
things that are not necessarily like creative, but things that
creatives need to be successful. Because we started taking inventory
and like a lot of the reasons that songwriters quit
or artists quit are reasons that we feel like if
(48:30):
someone can help them work through a couple of issues
that are kind of surrounding even like confidence, you know,
just easy confidence building exercises. And Chris is such a
beautiful soul and also a great coach. She's been doing
(48:50):
it her whole life. I think she's so good at that.
And so the two of us together, we I don't know,
we just I guess we just both have a heart
for like we just want to bring the next generation up,
you know, and try to pass on what we know,
and then sometimes they teach us and then thank god, you.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Know, I like this, I'm interested in it. So do
you have artists that come in you kind of I mean,
are you vetting these people that are you listening to
their music? Is it like something where you need to
be here or you need to you know, purchase this
package or whatever it is, and you can come and
(49:32):
we'll listen to your stuff and we'll give you advice
and we'll champion you or whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
It's all of it. So we have kind of beginnersate intermediates,
and you know, people that are kind of doing it
I would say, like for a living and then and
really all interest levels, because some people that we work
with they don't want to do it for a living, right,
but they also realize that they left, you know whatever
(49:57):
ten years ago, they left a huge which part of
them on the table when they became a doctor or
you know. So we actually work with a bunch of
different different people in different parts of their lives, I guess.
And so I think for some of the songwriting retreats, yeah,
we have we vet like, uh, if it's an intermediate level, yes,
(50:20):
you have to send songs in and you're kind of
accepted to go to the retreat because and not really
for anything, but we want everyone that's at the retreat
to kind of be at a similar level.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Yeah, you don't want it to be a joke, right,
and so.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
We don't want someone that is doing it for a
living to write with beginners, although sometimes that's amazing if
everyone is coming to their traveling to a retreat that
they've paid for. We want everyone to be at the
same level. So there's a beginning, intermediate, more advanced levels.
So we try to try to vet in that way,
I suppose. But we have free things where it's come
(50:58):
to be a part of this community. Christida's meetups, like
she's doing something with Drew Small in a week or
two where he is like a social media guy and
he helps people like build their platforms.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Oh that's smart and it's free. Because I hate doing that.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
Anybody can come.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I feel like a lot of artists hate doing that.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
Oh my gosh, it's like and then there's.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
Burnout, and then you feel like, well, if I'm not
doing it, then there's no point to even do this
at all.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
Yes, So the only thing I can say to that
is everybody hates doing it. I don't. Okay, there might
be five percent of people that love doing it and
they should be doing it for a living probably, but
everybody hates doing it. So let's start there. And so
I am a huge I have become a huge stickler
(51:45):
because I think I've seen too many of my friends
who are masterful songwriters and artists spend their life writing
their life's work. They finally do it, they finally record it,
finally spend all the money, and then it sits there
because they don't market it. And so I'm like, either
(52:07):
you have two choices. Either you have to pay someone
to do it for you. Awesome if you have those funds,
or you raise those funds. I would do it that
way personally if you're not good at it. But I
have trained my own brain, and I'm still not good
at it. Like I'm kind of garbage can novice. I'm
(52:27):
not good. I have friends that are like really good
at it. But Sarah Darling, who's she's better than labels,
She's great.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
But I.
Speaker 3 (52:38):
I've trained myself to go. Okay, even though you hate this,
move your brain. You have just spent your life. You know,
you're a ton of money and time making this album
or whatever it is. Like you're a visual artist. You
have to go market it. Figure out a way how
(52:59):
to trick your brain and make this a creative and
denver too, Like, sit down, make yourself a little planned
for the year, try and stick to it, and then
make it creative. Go go find a buddy to shoot
some pictures and videos. Make it as creative as you want.
Have fun with it, you know, I mean, like one
(53:20):
of our six to one five pictures, we just we
just shut out in the desert and literally me and
Siara Darling are we just it looks like we just
came from like burning man. Like I'm wearing like a
feather skirt. I would never wear a feather skirt probably,
but I'm like, you know what, why not? Why not?
I want to make this fun. Yeah, I'm gonna wear
(53:41):
a feather skirt. This is weird.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (53:43):
Content's weird, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
We talk about it all the time, me and my brother,
because it's like people don't really care. They just want
something to eat.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
Yeah, you know, I look like an ostrich if I'm.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
Over there scrolling. I don't care what it looks like.
If it engages me, that's what I want.
Speaker 3 (54:01):
If you see it, you're gonna be like, yeah, kind
of weird, kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
That doesn't mean you can you have to be lazy
about it or like, you know, you don't want to
put in the work to make it look good or fun.
But I do agree like people, I'm one of them
that overthinks that overthinks I'm posting and all of that, Like,
am I being too egocentric?
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Am I that it's so hard?
Speaker 2 (54:23):
You know?
Speaker 1 (54:24):
All of that stuff?
Speaker 3 (54:25):
Yeah, because you know, there is a line, you know.
But I think at the end of the day, and
this is I guess how I operate. Most of the time,
I have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, most I
am literally walking in the dark. Yeah, but I'm like, well,
if I don't move forward, then.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, is you're walking though.
Speaker 3 (54:48):
You know, and it's scary because like half the time
it's not the right thing, you know, or it's it's garbage.
But the other half the time, like I'm like, well, okay,
that was probably good that I forward and started doing something.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Yeah. So because what if you didn't. What if you
had the six to one to five collective idea and
you yeah, I told yourself it was Dominoe and you know,
Mike Clogan's not going to come be in it or whatever. Yeah,
I mean all those and then you sold it on
yourself and didn't do it.
Speaker 3 (55:16):
Yep, and uh And I think all those guys would say,
you know, we're having kind of the time of our
lives because no one is really overthinking anything. Yeah, and
I think that's why people are kind of like catching on.
Like I almost well, probably eighty percent of the places
we played this year, I've already asked this back for
(55:37):
next year, right, and so we're like, all right, great,
this is let's roll, you know, going.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yeah, that's awesome. So well, first of all, thanks for
being here. Do you have plans on making more music?
For you, like a record I do.
Speaker 3 (55:55):
I mean, I have one more I'm going to release,
uh probably the top of the year that's ready to go.
And then you know, so I'm constantly we're we're going
to be really releasing a lot for six to one
five Collective next year. So if I release, it'll be
kind of like in windows.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
Do you think it's easier to be like in a
group or band than do your own.
Speaker 3 (56:19):
I do, because One, it's it's a lot more fun
we one Mike Logan is so freaking funny, Aaron Goodman,
Jeremy Spray, our Drummerremy They're they're hysterical. So like, oh
my gosh, I mean, you get those guys in a
room you're not you are barely singing or note like
(56:40):
I'm laughing more that I'm singing. And so one, it's
just so fun. Two like everybody has a chance to
sort of shine. And then you kind of like can
sit back and have a cocktail, you know what I'm saying,
Like it's just the show is not on you. It
doesn't like if you're sick, great three of us are
going to carry it like it's okay, Like you're having
(57:03):
a bad day. Great, somebody somebody can step up, you know,
and we literally change our setless kind of if somebody, hey,
I want to do this song tonight. Okay, awesome, great.
You know, like they're just is not we don't really
like have very many rules and so it's it's just
very authentic.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I love that. Yeah, I think that's cool. I think
I would have had more questions around the fact that
you had never put out your own stuff before. I
didn't realize that. So that's fun. I'm glad you're doing that. Yeah, congratulations,
thank you. Thank It's only been what four years of
you doing that?
Speaker 3 (57:41):
Yeah, only four I mean, yeah, so well I think
you should keep doing it. Well, thank you. I think
I will, Like I think I want to do music
till I dropped dead because you have to. Why not?
Speaker 4 (57:54):
You have to?
Speaker 1 (57:54):
You know, it's a gift. It's like it's like hiding
some valuable jewel. You know. Yeah, I'm not doing it.
Speaker 3 (58:03):
I would say, I'm gonna be like the weird eighty
year old lady you know, with the gray hair, like singing,
probably singing at the community center. It's gonna be weird.
It's gonna be super weird.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
It's gonna be weird with your feather skirt and your
eighty I probably will, why not? Nicole Wits Thank you, Stadu.
(58:37):
Work Tapes is produced by me Brandon Carswell. Special thanks
to Nicole Witt. For more information on Nicole, visit nicole
Witt dot com to find out more about artist, and
visit artistan dot org. This episode was recorded at Soundstage
Studios in Nashville, Tennessee. Special thanks to Nick Austrey and
(59:01):
Black River Entertainment. Video and editing by Sean Carswell. And
don't forget to like and subscribe to Work Tapes Wherever
you're listening ull lean into me like
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.