December 21, 2024 • 62 mins
Leeland Mooring is a Texas-based singer, songwriter, and multi-instrumentalist with seven albums, four GRAMMY® nominations, and eight GMA Dove Award® nominations. LEELAND have become one of the most significant and standout voices in a new generation of worship music. In part 2 of this interview we we are joined by Jack Mooring who is an author, pastor and co-founder of the band Leeland. We discuss biblical worship writing vs emotive writing, modern vs. puritan worship songs, The Power Team, a word on Christmas music from Brother Terry and we listen to the worktape of Leeland’s song “Still Mighty”.
Find Leeland
Listen to "Still Mighty"
Find Jack Mooring
Read Jack's book, "Portrait Of God"
Produced by Brandon Carswell
Film & Editing by Shaun Carswell
Episode intro music written by Brandon Carswell & produced by Micah Tawlks - "Back To Us" Worktapes show cover art designed by Harrison Hudson
**All songs used by permission**
Find Leeland
Listen to "Still Mighty"
Find Jack Mooring
Read Jack's book, "Portrait Of God"
Produced by Brandon Carswell
Film & Editing by Shaun Carswell
Episode intro music written by Brandon Carswell & produced by Micah Tawlks - "Back To Us" Worktapes show cover art designed by Harrison Hudson
**All songs used by permission**
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Work Tapes. This is a podcast where we
tear up our songs. Why with the song written? What's
it about? What's the context and emotion behind it? Where
were you at the time, what were you going through?
How did certain lines come to you? What's the inspiration?
How long did it take to write? I'm Brandon Carswell
and I'm fascinated with songwriting and how songs are built
(00:29):
from the ground up. It's easy to hear a full
production song on the radio and dismiss.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Its origin story.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I want to hear the rough draft of the song
or the work tape. I want to explore the very beginning,
how songs that move us and make us move our more.
(00:58):
All right, everyone, welcome to another edition of Work Tapes.
My name is Brandon as usual and this is a
part two with Leland Mooring also joined by Jack his brother.
Thank you guys for being here, Thanks Leland for continuing
our conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Thanks no, thanks for inviting us back on man and
we get to have my bro on this so good.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Just be told to our listeners we lost the audio
of half of the episode before, so we're like, let's
just turn it into a two parter and Leland's like,
let's bring my brother Jack and we can talk about
all kinds of stuff. So quick introduction. I gave Leland
his introduction on episode fifty six, so you'll have to
(01:48):
go back and listen. If you don't know who he is,
sorry about that. Jack is our new guest today. Jack
is an author, co founder of the band Leland, and
pastor of Celebration of Life and Franklin, Tennessee. Welcome to
work Tapes.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Jack, Yeah, so good to be on. Thanks for having me, Brandon.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, of course, I'm I'm excited. I was telling Leland
and the first episode that we did. I've been a
fan of the band for years and years and years.
Used to play your songs at our church when I
would lead or do whatever. So it's so fun for
me personally to have you guys here. I followed you all,
(02:31):
I've followed your music paths. I was introduced to Brother
Terry at some point and then didn't connect the dots,
and then I was like, oh my gosh, that's Jack
from Leland. So maybe if the spirit moves we can
get a little and a little combo going with Brother Terry. Absolutely,
(02:56):
So Leland, let's just jump where we le talk before
the end of the episode where you were saying one
of your biggest influences was Carmen, which was.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
That's right, That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
That's what we were most is in my house to night. Yes,
I had a Carmen record called Yo Kids. I remember
that one and it was like this whole cartoon he
had like a whole cartoon cat thing going on.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yo. It's like, you know, we we got to we
got to meet him actually years ago, and he is like,
that was the sweetest guy in the world.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
That's what I've heard.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
He was so nice and is uh and I just
but I remember his chest hair.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Being so prominent, prominent.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It was I felt like I was talking to his
chest there.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
But he was so sweet and it was so nice.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Oh my gosh, Yeah, we were. I actually was a
big Carmon Carmen Fairman as a kid, you know. But
what was the funny I'd mentioned this in the last podcast,
but and me and Jack Jack could help elaborate on this.
But so we grew up. My parents were worship pastors
at a church in East Texas, and you know, I
mean you probably similar upbringing, going to the very kind
(04:16):
of charismatic Southern church in the nineties, there was a
particular culture where you would have like really interesting, like
special guests come in and so it was either like
awesome musical special guests or just you know, wild characters.
So like, I'm not sure if Carmen came through or
if you like, did he come. I don't think he
came to our church, but he might have. Yeah, we've
(04:39):
saw ads about a tour or something that was coming
through town. But I do remember though, around that same
time that I was listening and watching Carmen music videos,
we had the Power Team come to our church and
they were awesome. They were awesome.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
I saw them.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I used to.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I grew up in Nashville and we went to christ
Church on Old Hickory Bill of our all of you
listening locally, that's where I grew up. Power Team came.
I remember the Power Team. It was amazing. And also
I just remembered that my first concert ever was a
Carmen concert.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Wow, wow, you.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Just remember that for the first time. But yes, Power Team.
They don't do that anymore, do they.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
You know they don't. I think we've gotten boring now.
We're so used to be kind of like like exciting,
like you didn't know what's a man that was good?
And now it's.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Look, we had guys laying on a bed of nails
to preach the gospel and now we're just using the Bible.
What is going on?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, it's like, who's tearing a phone book anymore? I mean,
come on, It's like, dude, can you even tear a
phone book? Pastor?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
How are we going to exemplify the power of God
without something tangible like that?
Speaker 3 (05:58):
I know, samsuis.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
That people something to grab onto, you.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Know, Oh my gosh, I love it.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
But I will say I can't remember who it was.
It might have been just one of the roadies or
something that was working with the Power Team. I remember
I was like maybe eight years old. My parents were
the worship pastors at this church, and so because of that,
you know, when your parents work at the church, you're
just at the church all the time, like as a kid.
(06:33):
So we were just there. I think it was after school,
and mom and dad were because there was going to
be some music before the Power Team, so they were
up there doing stuff. Is midweek, and I remember on
a loading dock at the back of the church, the
Power Team like trucks with all their gear and stuff
had just pulled up, and I remember, like, you know,
(06:54):
I'm like one of the only kids there, so I'm like,
oh my gosh, I get to like watch them a
little of their years and stuff. I just remember one
of the Power Team roadies like yelled at me, we're
getting too close to the dry Eyes. That is hysterical,
(07:20):
just like a total like you're so stressed. I need
to keep.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Oh that's fun.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Best of a dry Eyes.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Probably didn't anywhere. If we keep talking about the Power Team,
we're Oh.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
My god, you're gonna have to change the subject.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Bro, We're gonna lose another episode. I'm gonna need to
do five Leland.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Moore, Oh my gosh. Oh that's that was That was
a good That was a good opener.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Though it's such a good opener, I'm going to try
to get those guys on that podcast. That would be awesome,
like the backstory of the Power to.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You know, they have awesome stories, dude, Like you know
they've got stories. Yeah, it would be Actually, that'd be awesome. No,
but we, like I think I mentioned before, like because
we so we grew like we grew up around like
it was either Southern gospel or like quartet singing groups
like or black gospel music and that was kind of
(08:28):
like for me, that was like my first memories of
music was like around those kinds of songs, and you know,
we would like sing specials and stuff. It was.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
It was funny watching you know my mom, our parents,
who were very you know into the black gospel kind
of stuff. Uh, you know when when Darlene and Hillsong
kind of started taking off, and then also Passion, like
that one day Passion record and like you can also
(09:00):
watch it in real time on our mom's face like
going like this is so weird, but it's so good,
like you know, like and she kind of you know,
credit to her because it was a total new genre
for her, but like she recognized a good song. She
recognized that God was on it, you know, and like
(09:22):
so we started singing a lot of those songs.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
You know, yeah, we remember, go.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Ahead, No, I was just saying that. I think I
mentioned the last podcast. It just it was like I
remember those two albums were introduced to like our Lincoln
Town card that our family was like traveling around the
country in It was like the two records that were
kind of because it was mostly seven gospel Black gospel,
and then there were these two records. That was the
Passion One Day album and then it was that You
(09:49):
Are Near album by Hillsong and.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Other records like like Sonic Floods record that was so huge. Yes,
that was around the same time, and I was going
to say, we attended like predominantly black church and we
they had me do the special off Tory music one time,
and I chose hard of Worship to sing, Yeah, it's fine.
(10:17):
But I remember we did a sound check because it
was a televised church and on you know, you get
there super early to do all they run all the stuff,
and then I do my soundcheck and to play the
whole song, and like the music director or the tech
director was like, huh, that was different. That was the
(10:40):
response to that song. That was largely the response when
I did it. But it just kind of speaks to
what was happening like musically and that genre of music.
It was starting to totally shift from what you said,
like the Southern gospel stuff, which is what we grew
up with. My parents were in those groups, and then
shifting in the nineties late nineties early two thousands into
(11:04):
what you're just talking about with Hillsong and Passion and
then you yes, being informed by that, but also being
informed by secular bands like Travis and you two and
Radiohead like we talked about before. And so I would
love to get y'all's take on working as brothers and
(11:27):
starting as brothers and like the family dynamic of writing
together and performing together and singing together, and what that was,
what that was like for you? Was it did you
find it to be easy to work together or sometimes
siblings can butt heads?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Pretty hard? Or was it natural? You know you know
where I'm going with it.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah, Well, I think for us it felt really natural
because you know, that was the way we were rais
and you know, it's kind of the values of our
family was that we just did everything together.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So grateful for.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
But and you know, me and Leland are are very
different in a lot of ways, but we have a
lot of things in common. And so yeah, I mean
when we were kids, I mean like we were always
like fighting. I was always being the mean big brother,
you know, yeah, but I think I was.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I was always hyper adhd just all of it, all
of your grill, kid, right.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
But by the time we were teenagers though, I mean
we were we were on the same page in life,
you know, and and love the same things. So so yeah,
I think it worked pretty well. I mean, I'm very
thankful for it. And like, like I said, it was
kind of all we knew. It's just like breathing. We
didn't really think about it, and so.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, I don't even I don't even think when when
Jack and I started writing songs together, I don't know
that we knew there was a word for it called
co writing. I don't even think that we knew there
was like something called co writing or a whole We
knew nothing really about like the massive culture songwriting or
any of that stuff. We just our parents were writers, songwriters,
(13:17):
and they had kind of instilled some things in us
as kids. They sort of pulled out songs out of
us whenever we would get inspired with things. My mom's
a singer and she's a great lyricist, and my dad
is a melody guy, keys guy, so he would they
would both kind of pull it out of both of us.
And then Jack and I started writing really songs that
(13:41):
kind of started and were inspired by these prayer and
worship services that we would do with our cousins and
our cousins friends, and that was our youth group, you know.
And we started like in our house and then started
meeting in like pavilion buildings around town in Baytown where
we're from, and because we kind of outgrew the home
(14:02):
and so all these songs just kind of started. It
was like a maybe a melody of something, a chorus
of something would happen in prayer or in these kind
of worship services with with you know, cold metal chairs
and PD speakers on sticks, you know, and for us
literally a really good they are awesome. I actual kind
(14:23):
of wish we had that PA still no, but that's
it was really special though. It's awesome, like I think,
and you know, I remember one of the first things
I kind of realized early on that well, one, we're brothers.
So it was easy in that sense because we being
being blood and knowing each other and in the same
culture and same family. But also too, I realized early
(14:46):
on that our personality differences were actually a strength in collaborating.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
What and what ways, Like Leland you mentioned being more
like hyperactive or whatever, and Jack you're more I mean,
you're both funny, but I assume Jack, maybe you're more reserved.
I don't know, maybe tell us that dynamic and how
that how that worked on stage and how it worked
on writing.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Right, Yeah, it is interesting. It's like, uh so, yeah,
growing up I was little, was a little more you know,
reserved as compared to Leland. You know, Leland was higher energy,
you know, but I guess compared to other people who
were both kind of like talkative or whatever. But yeah,
(15:35):
I was always a little more interest introspective, you know.
And but creatively it was interesting just the way Leland's wired.
He's always coming up with ideas and I wasn't like that.
I was more of a slow burn, you know. And
so how it started was Leland would get these ideas,
(15:55):
I mean all the time, and then I would kind
of come along and kind of help him finish them
or filling any gaps. You know. Sometimes he would get
it all, you know, kind of by himself, but often,
you know, we would write together.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
So yeah, yeah, it also it seemed like too that
like Jack, Jack has always been a really great communicator
and a really really great even teacher and public speaker
and preacher, and so during that time too, when we
were you know, just pouring into this little group of kids.
(16:32):
It's like thirty or forty of us, and then eventually
grew larger. Jack was pastoring our youth group, and so
I think also he was in a he's always you know,
been an avid reader, but he was also in a
space of like preaching and teaching every single week. So
you know, that puts you in a really good headspace
for like the conceptualization of ideas like what are we
(16:54):
thinking about? What are we talking about in the song?
You know?
Speaker 3 (16:57):
So so I kind of yeah, oh sorry, I kind
of I buy default, just kind of became the little
resident theologian. Yeah, with no qualifications whatsoever for being the
resident theologian, but but you know what I mean within
our micro cross cause them, it's like that was, yeah,
I was. I was just a few head a few
(17:19):
years ahead of Leland and so so yeah, yeah, I
kind of would bring like a theological aside.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Well, a good reader makes a good writer, right, I
mean that's exactly right, Or it makes a better writer.
I mean, you don't have to read to write, but
it definitely helps a ton if you want to write.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, cereal, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Songs that make sense, which I want to get into
as far as worship and the arts and all that stuff.
But let's move into talking about Still Mighty before we
lose this episode again. It is called work tapes. You
have the only episode so far without a work tape,
and by the way, I love it, so congratulations fifty
(18:04):
something episodes.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
And just breaking trends right now.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, I want to talk about Still Mighty. I want
to know where that song came from. But what we'll
do is we'll pause and listen to that work tape
and for this work tape you sent me to You
sent me a voice memo, and you sent me a
video of you at the piano. So I'm gonna mesh
(18:28):
those together and we'll listen to the whole thing, and
then we'll talk about the song.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
I'm more Man travel and your son no wavesuras and
oh my anxiety. It means you.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
See me through the other.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I'm more man, your son, your waters rising big on
hold long time, oh my anxiety, and mentioning you and
you see me through.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Here the sun, here, the side, here, the side.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
You want to share that cost.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
The de.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I love this song. This is when I heard it
(20:37):
my brother and I were setting up for the first
episode we did, and I had it playing in the
living room and I was like, man, honestly, this sounds
I don't mean this in a negative way, of course,
this is the kind of music you do. If this
was a uh secular song, it would I think it
(20:59):
would be blown up. It's just like a cool pop
like the music is cool and poppy, the melodies just hit.
It sounds like modern pop. And for you to be
able to roll that into it being a worship song
is brilliant to me. Which is what I've always loved
about the band and what you all did and do
(21:23):
is that it never felt like the It never felt
like the worn out church music that happens. It's never
felt like that. Like my favorite record y'all did was
opposite way. And I think even of all the records,
to me, that one is a little more like on
(21:45):
the side. But those songs and the tones and the
band and everything was just like spot on for me.
So still mighty awesome where this Man, let's talk about
the music part first and then we'll get into what
it's about. So how did this formula?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Sure? Yeah, well, I mean the song still mighty is
you know, it's on our latest record that we released,
which was coming up on over over a year now,
it's called City of God. And it's funny that you
mentioned like some of our earlier records like opposite Way
and sounding melodies. When we were making City of God
(22:27):
with the band, and even when Casey and I was
in the band, we were writing songs and working on
our pre production, it felt the most like some of
our oldest, older records. Even though the record City of
God is technically recorded live in a space there's no audience,
but live with the band with like five singers, and
(22:50):
we kept a lot of it and then we overdid
some things here and there in post. But that being said,
it felt a lot like making you know, opposite way
or sound and melodies in lots of ways, which was
really strange because I didn't expect that until we were
in it. I was like, oh my gosh, this feels
much more kind of like you know, it felt more
like breathing. It felt kind of like a spiritual assignment,
(23:14):
you know, and less you know, to use more spiritual
language and less less than like just making a record.
And so but the song is still mighty and actually
a lot of the songs on City of God started
kind of like right here at the at this piano,
like in my house, and like I think the video
it's it's the same, just this living room. It's a
(23:35):
good room for singing, and like it's got tile floor.
So yeah, I was just middle of twenty twenty in
the craziness of the pandemic and everything else that was
going on in the world at the time, and like
every other you know, songwriter, I just found myself dealing
with lots of like fear anxiety in twenty that year.
(23:59):
I'd never had a panic attack before. I didn't even
really know what it was like to experience something like that.
And so that happened like on a Sunday morning, headed
to like go lead worship, and that was crazy. And
like so I found myself just opening up the Bible
here when the kids were asleep, and I really felt
(24:23):
like I was meeting Jesus again or experiencing his presence again,
and like the Psalms and the Old Testament, And that
was so strange because you know, normally I would go
to the Gospels, like John's my favorite book, and the Gospels,
or even like the letters like First John, Second John,
all the love Gospels. I love those, and so but
(24:43):
I found myself in Psalms, and I think I can't
remember exactly which psalm it was. I think I referenced
it in that video, but it was one of the
songs that talks about Goving our defense and meaning our tower,
our strength, our refuge in the midst of everything happening
in the world. And so Still Mighty was maybe the
second or third idea that kind of dropped in that year,
(25:05):
just and I just I didn't even think it was
going to be a song. I was like, I'm just
gonna put it on Instagram. It's just it felt like
a piece of something. It didn't really feel like a
full song. Yeah, it was just technically the chorus, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
So you wrote a piece first, like you wrote the
course of the melodies and all that first.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, exactly. And then just kind of like I tracked.
I don't normally do this, but like I was like,
I want to hear what a couple of vocals sound
like on it. So I just tracked him on my
phone like voice memo style on to like a click,
and then I put them together in garage band and
then I put the video out that way. And so
(25:42):
so it was. It was a really fun experiment though,
and it seemed like a lot of people really gravitated
towards a new or fresh melody, a more modern sounding melody,
and even a pocket driven melody to an Old Testament
passage of scripture. Yeah, you know, and I tried not
to change the scripture as much as I could, right,
(26:04):
And so that happened. And then fast forward, you know,
we get like four or five months into this process
of more songs had been kind of like deposited, and
we were working on more of these songs. This idea
of a whole record was kind of revealing itself in
the process, like, oh, this is actually this is not
necessarily a live worship album, even though there's going to
(26:25):
be lots of worshipful moments on it. We kind of
knew from the beginning this is going to be a
record that people listen to Monday is Saturday, not necessarily
singing every song on Sunday morning at church. This is
a record where we sing over people and sing two
people throughout their daily life and hopefully inspire them back
(26:45):
to the Word of God and back to some of
these Old Testament stories into places like the Psalms to
hopefully find Jesus in those contemplative spaces in their day,
like when they lie down, wake up.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well, let me ask you about that.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
So that was the whole thought, mind it.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, let me ask you about that, because is one
thing I'm curious about, which seems like a no brainer
question for a worship music writer, but I think it's
an important question, which is do you normally reference scripture
when you're writing and do you keep it as authentic
(27:20):
to scripture for the song. Is that kind of your viewpoint?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, Yeah, that's a really it's a really good question,
and I'm sure Jack Oil even have some good thoughts
on this too. I think, of course, the Bible is
always there. Scripture is always in front of you. I
think when you're when when I think about writing songs
for you know, Sunday Morning. First of all, some of
the best songs that I feel like I've ever been
(27:48):
a part of that work well on Sunday morning. I've
never really come from sitting down and going I'm going
to write a song for Sunday Morning today.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Most of the time, it's just you've got the have
a litlepin you're in a place of pursuing pursuing God,
and something happens, something's deposited, and then you can get
in rooms like that, but it's usually not finished and
finish the song, you know. But even in that finishing
process of trying to finish the song, the word of
God's always always there. Jack even he say that.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Yeah, I think you know. It's it's a both, you know,
both and kind of a thing like I think, you know,
sometimes it is fun to go to scripture and try
to try to stay as close to verbatim as possible
as a songwriter. It's a kind of a fun experiment
to you know what I mean, just trying to I
(28:42):
mean it's like I think if Eugene Peterson when he
wrote the message paraphrase, he wasn't trying to write the
message to paraphrase. He was a pastor. He was trying
to help his people learn how to pray in his church.
So he would take the psalms and paraphrase them and
just hand them to people and here, pray this. And
so I think that exercises a songwriter is really fun,
(29:05):
you know, to start with a scripture and paraphrase it.
But obviously the most important thing isn't quoting scripture directly
in our songs. The most important thing is are our
songs shaped by the Bible story, by the Gospel story?
Are are are they going against that?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Are?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
You know, are our songs agreeing with God? Are our
songs agreeing with the Bible? So that's obviously the most.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Important, right and not to take away from the conversation
about Still Mighty, but this is where it's going. So
that that's it gets me into like biblical worship and
writing for this conversation versus emotive it being emotionally driven.
(29:57):
And we all know, like you know, the the big guitars,
the big echoing delay pedals, the atmosphere at church or
at a it being a production or whatever leads it
stirs emotion, right, And so that's part of my angle
(30:17):
in asking this is because you have right like the
Puritan writers, like the hymns from the seventeen eighteen hundreds,
which are written so brilliantly, can also stir that emotion
without a fog machine. You know, you don't need anything.
(30:38):
You listen to it, you sing it, you sing it corporately.
It does something. It stirs that. But also you have
the big you know U two esque sound that obviously,
and this happens in pop music, any music, top forty whatever,
stirs your heart and you feel like some kind a
(31:00):
spiritual thing happening, when it could just be like an
emotional response to a sound. And so that's something that
I'm always curious to talk with about worship writers because
for me, I've tried to write these types of songs before,
and I always feel like it's like this tugle war
(31:22):
with me, like can I do this authentically? And the
answer is no, I don't know that I can do
it authentically and stay stay the part. So I know
I know my lane as far as the writer goes,
not that I wouldn't write about my faith or anything
like that, but hopefully you get where I'm going there,
and I would love to get both of your feedback
(31:44):
on or your thoughts on that and just in general
or as deep as you want to go.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, that's really good. Does it make sense I'm excited
that we're jumping off It does make sense that I'm
excited we're jumping off this cliff. Jack, you want to
go first, you have anything in you in your in
your heart us and then.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Sure, yeah, I think for me that that is that
is a great point. What what kind of came to
my mind, like a motive versus sort of theological is
just as a songwriter, I think you know when we
were told this from the beginning when we started writing songs,
(32:26):
if your song can't stand alone, like just on an
acoustic or just in a piano, it's not a really
great song, you know what I mean. Like in terms
of a songwriter. I mean, there are some songs that
are really really reliant on tracks and sounds and it's
moves you and it's fun and it's awesome. But in
(32:46):
terms of the craft of songwriting, if your song can't
stand alone without all that stuff, it's not a really
great song. And so I would say, what's cool about
some of those hymns to me that the peers and
hymns are all about the theological content. That's what it's
all about.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
You know, oftentimes the melodies aren't even that great. Sometimes
they are, but but those songs are just so good.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Theologically you can add an orchestra and add an organ
to the those songs. Right even even in the time
that they were written, you could have added all of
these emotive epic sounds to those songs, and you know
it would just improved the experience and and and that's great.
But to me, it's all about the standalone for me,
(33:35):
and and another thing I'll add and I'll leave them
go for it. But like, emotions aren't, obviously, you know,
necessarily bad. And I hear what you're saying, is that,
am I being moved because of the the ideas of
this song? Or am I being moved because of the
(33:57):
sounds I'm hearing? And you know, it's very dangerous obviously
if the ideas we're communicating aren't very strong and we're
relying on emotions, So obviously we have to fight for
the theological content to be strong. As long as that's good,
go for it, man, Like, yeah, I think I think
all the emotions are great.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
What I'm suggesting would be not far off from what
you do with Brothers, Harry, and that the music side
of it is there can be the you could equate
it to like the prosperity Gospel versus the actual gospel,
you know what I'm saying. So I'm definitely not saying
(34:38):
that emotions are wrong. Obviously created by God, we write
them or being stirred by a song emotionally is bad.
It's not just a sake of conversation and want your
thoughts as as leaders in the faith and what you
all do. I think it's I think it's good to
(35:00):
talk about and it's good for me to check myself.
You know. I came from the same kind of background
that you guys came from, and I ended up a
few years ago at a more traditional reform church and
I would go in and it was all the hymns
that I was not raised with those, so I didn't
know them well. First day I walk in there, it's
(35:23):
just a piano, some violins and the whole church is
singing them and that's what you can hear. And I
was like, whoa, this is different, this is new for me.
And it was moving and I didn't need any of
the you know, big you know CCM worship songs. I
didn't need that. Yeah, And it made me check myself like, oh,
(35:46):
there's something, there's something here also.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Totally. And you know what's actually amazing about that is
I've me and Jack have talked about this a lot
over the years that you know, pretty early on we
were introduced at you know, seventeen and eighteen years old
to a whole breadth of the Body of Christ that
we had no clue about, you know, because we were
in East Texas, Charismatic, pretty similar upbringing, and so we
(36:15):
were thrust into like, you know, going to the Netherlands
or going to London and sitting in the linking cathedral
at Anglican Church and listening to this high church choir
sing the psalms, you know, and then they perform a
liturgy of sorts and you just go like, what is
the word liturgy? And you know what that was. And
(36:37):
so we're introduced all of a sudden to these Orthodox
traditions that are so beautiful and so rich and similar
to how maybe even some of the early Protestant hymns
were very very rich in theology. All of a sudden,
we're in these services that the liturgy is just very deep,
and you realize it's like I've encountered the same Holy
(37:00):
Spirit or the same presence of Jesus in the in
a cathedral and Lincoln, uh as I have in a
youth group service in a Charismatic church when I was sixteen,
you know, in a prayer night. I think that I
was talking to Jack about this the other day. It
does seem like that right now we're living in a
(37:21):
really interesting time of reformation and revival, and I think
those two things are kind of happening at the same time.
And what that looks like to me on the surface
at least, is lots of people our age and younger.
There's kind of like a mass exod is happening from
(37:44):
people leaving certain traditions in the faith and finding Christ
in another tradition in the faith, finding finding the Lord,
the presence of Jesus somewhere else. So it might look
like someone like us leaving the leaving what the kind
of they grew up in and find finding Jesus in
in a more mainline tradition. It might look like someone
(38:06):
I've had just as many friends or others that have
left certain old traditions of the faith, like Catholic or Orthodox,
and are finding Christ in a charismatic church. And it's
like I think, I think it goes back to the
Scripture where Christ is talking to the Pharisees. You know,
you search the scriptures to to find me, but you've
you've lost me in the midst of all of this,
(38:30):
and tradition is not a bading. Tradition is a good thing.
But you've lost me in the midst of all this stuff.
You've you've you've missed a person of Christ. And I
think if you're if you're fine. If it's if you're
in a church and and what's being preached is not heretical,
and it is, it harmonizes with the Gospel. It's in
(38:51):
union with the person of the Holy Spirit. The only
you feel the touch of the Spirit of God in
your life, and which is like the agreement of what's happening.
And more than anything, it leads you to a life
of true worship, which James talks about that at the
end of the day, none of us can really be
the arbiters of what what's real worship and what's better
(39:11):
worship or not. I think we can go to the
Book of James and see that the scripture does say
true worship is taking care of the poor and the needy,
taking care of the widow and the orphan. You know,
Jesus talking about what the sheep do it versus the goats.
They go after the lost one, they're hurting one. They
(39:32):
go after the the one that's forgotten by society, they
go to the prisoner, they welcome into stranger and it's like, man,
if you're if you're it doesn't I honestly, I don't
care what tradition you're in. If you're in a church
and the presence of God you're feeling, uh, and the
word of God, the Gospel is being preached to you,
is leading your life to do those things, then like
(39:55):
that's Jesus. It's like you know. And so last thing
I'll say here, I just had a really cool conversation
with a friend of mine who grew up Eastern Orthodox
and finds himself now kind of more in the charismatic space,
but he grew up very Orthodox, and we were talking
(40:18):
about the beauty and all the different traditions and a
little bit in line of this conversation on the exclusivity
of just like that whole idea of who's got it,
you know, who's doing it right? And I think, you know,
the way we landed as men, we just I love
the beauty of the diversity of the body of Christ.
But the common denominator I find in all those places
(40:41):
when I do the rolodex and go back in my
own story is I find the character of Jesus, and
I find the compassion of Jesus or for the one
that's being forgotten by society. I find that alive and
at work in that community or those people, despite what
they're particular differences that theology say.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
It reminds me of like a Tim Keller talked about
how God gets our attention and how everyone he does
it a little differently for everyone like you, like I
might need a whisper and you might need a scream,
you know, a yelling at That's so true, and I
think you're right one hundred percent. I think there's a
(41:24):
lot of theological arguments that we don't have to have
what we do.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, let's can I say something else to you that
I thought was really cool is that it does seem
like there is On that conversation with my friend who
cript more orthodox he was, he was talking about the
beauty of those traditions and how they're you know, there's
(41:52):
there's a high value of tradition and liturgy, and and
I don't think they would say it's a it's above scripture,
but it's there's there's a little strong value of it,
and and everything's inspired by scripture of course, like all
the liturgy and the Orthodox churches, you know, take it
right off of Revelation, you know, the Book of the Apocalypse.
They pull all their service tradition off of that. And
(42:13):
I think whereas in the in the Protestant tradition that
we all grew up in charismatic sitting in wsconsin Protestantism
is you know, we tend to have a large view
of scripture, you know, sol scripture or whatever you want
to call the scripture alone, and I think they're they're
(42:36):
kind of is like e merging of the two happening.
You know, you're finding churches that have been very scripture
heavy for a long time, and that's a beautiful thing.
Are are discovering the Lord and things like there's a
friends of mine are taking communion every service now churches
that churches that would be only taking it every you know,
(42:57):
once every three months, are now going why are we
doing that? Like we should be doing this every single
service every time we gather. We should not forget to
take in the meal.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
You know, I think you're.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Right like spot on, because there's something I noticed when
I moved into more of a reform teaching, which was
I struggled in the beginning with letting go of some
of the charismatic parts. Of course, like I'm looking, I'm
trying to actually find what's heretical about any of it
(43:31):
and dump that part. But I could never totally get
away from Like there's a a tendency in the charismatic church,
at least that I grew up in, to hyper focus
on what's existential, you know, all of the spiritual stuff,
and then finding a reformed teachings to be a little
(44:00):
bit like I say this kindly and I don't mean
it how it sounds like a little bit no, it
all like you have a there's like an arrogance behind
the study, you know what I mean, Like, well, I've
studied this, this, and this is what this means, and
you break it down and all this stuff. But I
think you're right about the joining of the two happening
because you cannot deny the spiritual existential things, and you
(44:24):
cannot deny the absolute knowledge.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
That's right, right, that's exactly right. And I think I
think you find both in Jesus. I think Jesus. This
might have been I can't remember who said this, but
they said Jesus is perfect theology. I think if you
look at the incarnate Christ and you read him in
the gospels, that is perfect theology. That's Christ. And so
(44:49):
when I look at Jesus, I see both. I see
the absolute truths of God that are beautiful, that are
like rock in the foundation that we can stand on.
We'll see like you know, you see the one who,
like Moses, was afraid to go into the cloud with
this one, you know, like you see you see the
(45:09):
mystery of God, you know, And it's I think he
is both, you know, and he's he's the one who
gets down with us in the dirt, but he's also
the one who, like when he transcends on the top
of the mountain, they fall down in worship and go
who is who is this? Like here forever because and
(45:31):
just some.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Of the super super quick about still still mighty Okay.
That song to me is actually a good example of
what we're talking about. The chorus itself was I didn't
write on that song, so I can speak just kind
of like third you know, third person fan fan here
(45:53):
the chorus is like really creedle, like it's, oh Lord,
you are the shield that guards me, you are the
hand that feeds me. I cry out, and you answer.
I lay down and you cover. I wake up and
discover all your works and wonders. You're still mighty. Nations rise,
but the Lord is on his thrown in his built.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
So it's all the.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Stuff about him, about God that sounds, like I said,
almost like a creed that you're reciting. And then the
verse is very experiential and personal. So I'm warm and
dry when I'm by your side. The seas are rising,
(46:36):
but I hold on tight. All my anxiety melts in
your eyes. So so it's like, I think it's such
a cool blend of like the verse is like an
emotional personal experience, and then we lift our eyes to God.
This is who he is now in the chorus, and
then it sounds like an awesome Michael Jackson song from
the you know, you know what I'm saying. It's like,
(46:59):
what is that opening right now?
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Like and that's that's the trick between you know, like uh,
worship music and and I mean, I think our culture
is pretty well beyond this argument. It would have been
something like in the maybe eighties nineties. I don't know
where can worship be artistic? Can it be influenced by
modern pop or whatever, and I just think that that
(47:23):
that argument is pretty washed up. But because you cannot
know how someone's going to be musically influenced, maybe they
were in something and not even in the faith. What
are you going to just dump all your your musical
influences and not write how you write? It doesn't it
doesn't work. But you're you're exactly right. Like I mentioned
(47:48):
before to you Leland that this song immediately reminded me
of Isaiah. I want to say forty three. It's one
of those forties. Yeah, though the waters rise, they will
not overtake you. So what you're saying, Jack, like the
(48:10):
crying out in the verses and then the proclamation of
who God is is right there in the whole song's
it's great, which is a good pivot to go into.
I mentioned at the top of this episode that Jack
is an author and wrote a book called Portrait of God.
So this would be a good little segue into since
(48:32):
we're already talking about kind of some attributes of God,
tell us about that book. What moved you to write it?
All of those things?
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (48:44):
You know, actually your podcast idea is given me an
idea for a podcast right now. It would be cool
to have like a book version of work tapes podcast,
so like you have people on and they have to
read early versions of their manuscript, which would be terrifying,
(49:07):
but there were some yeah exactly first draft. So yeah,
it was it was an outworking of like a long
time of like singing about God and you know from
our band days of writing these songs and and like
A w Toaster was really formative for me. His book
(49:30):
Knowledge of the Holy and a lot of his works
about the attributes of God. So I just started writing
as just to encourage myself, you know, initially, pretty quickly
the book idea started taking shape and so so yeah,
the whole concept was, hey, like write write a book
(49:51):
for my generation about the attributes of God, like what
is he like? Because there's all these bad and wrong
ideas that we pick up along.
Speaker 6 (49:58):
The way about him.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
But use stories from like people in church history to
help give examples of those attributes. So like on the
chapter on God's Joy, I share the story of C. S.
Lewis who experienced this kind of like really fun definition
of joy and how God used that in his life.
(50:20):
The chapter on God's Holiness, I talk about Saint Augustine
who kind of had to leave this life of it's
sort of like, you know, kind of kind of sinful
lifestyle to to devote his life to God. So yeah,
so that's the concept of the book. And it's fun
because it does feel like just another version of songwriting
(50:41):
in a sense, helping kind of point people to God.
And because in the in the same way that songs
shape our theology, obviously, obviously books do as well. So
it's kind of my my little contribution to the conversation
to kind of reset us and and bring us back
to like what are the fundamentals of about God's nature.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Yeah, it's a great book. I haven't finished it, but
I'm on I think I'm on three, chapter three, and
it's an easy read as well. I was, I was
talking to Leland about that before, like it's not it's
not so far out there, Like you're talking about very
educated people and kind of giants in the faith, and
(51:24):
it would be easy to take their words and make
them even more complicated than they are are sometimes, you know,
Lewis had such a gift for taking an abstract idea
and making it simply and plain so we could digest it. Yeah,
A lot of those guys did, so, Yeah, congratulations on
(51:44):
that book. I would hope that everyone would go pick
it up, even if you're not a believer, just check
it out because there's there's good there's good stories in there,
there's good things that are encouraging. You know. Whereever you
are in your life, what's going on with uh, let's
(52:07):
talk about what's coming up for you, Louland. What what
are you doing? Where can people find you musically? Yeah,
what's on the horizon?
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Well, just on social media probably would be first. You know,
we've we're kind of slowly, like I think it just
kind of happens naturally. We're slowly working on new music
for maybe a new Leland record, so I guess be
able to look out for that. That could be a
(52:40):
ways away. But this next year we definitely want to
hop in the bat Cave again and start working on
working on stuff. So maybe it'll be a studio record.
We're not really sure. They have a couple of ideas,
but they're kind of sounding pretty nostalgic right now, Like
there's lots of guitars and uh, and so that's been
(53:01):
a lot of fun and so we'll see what happens
with that. I'm I'm on a project with some friends
at some of them are at Elevation. Some of their
outside of Elevation called Sons of Sunday and you can
follow that on Instagram. That's like a brand new thing.
Got a song coming out in January seventeenth. I think
(53:25):
it's actually two songs on the same day, so that
whole projects like kind of like if you like folky,
uh sort of a little bit a little bit blue
grassy swamp rock with like if you like that kind
of stuff. I just started a probably Okay, well then
you'll nerd out over it because we it's pretty fun.
So that's coming out next year. Yeah, lots of that's
(53:48):
kind of it's kind of it doing a lot of
songwriting and just being a dad. I've got a we've
got a third kid on the way, dude.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
Which is crazy. It's amazing, so insane. I meant to
give you a gift for that. I had a gift
for you and I forgot to give it to you
because you're having your first son.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
But oh yeah, thank you. Yeah, we're so pumped. We
have two beautiful girls and I have like I've been
leaving vicously through like my brother and all my other
friends that go on the What is it like to
be a boy? Dad? I can't wait to have a
wrestle buddy.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
I've never had girls, but I know boys are fun.
I do know that.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (54:23):
What about you, Jack, what's going on with you? And
obviously the book and everything.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
Yeah, you know, last year, this year has been that's
been a big project. Obviously, the book came out in August,
so you know, promoting that, and it's so interesting. You
write a book, but then you have to like make
sure people know about it, you know, So I would
like to just write, but yeah, but I passed her.
So we're planting a church and so we're you know,
(54:50):
right in the in the weeds and in the thick
of that, and it's exciting and fun and so so
really that's what I spend most of my time on
is focusing on the church past and then and I
am starting to to kind of percolate on some other
book ideas and stuff like that and just just write
for fun and and and also a goal this year too,
(55:13):
for for twenty five is to do more songwriting as well.
So I'm with integrity and so I still love to
do that. It's just kind of scheduling it, you know,
because our life is pretty full right now. But I
am excited about that as well. So so yeah, man
got the credit.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Also, I'll also say too on on Jack as a songwriter.
And there's a project that we put out what have
been a couple of years ago. Now I don't we
we talked about a little bit on socials, but you
know how that is. But it's called it's called Three
Ships s h I pps my mom's maid name and
(55:53):
so me and my brother and my little sister. We
did this like seven or eight song ep nice at
one of our favorite studios in Nashville a couple of
years ago called Smokestack Studios with Paul mot At its
place cool and it's just three it's three part harmony.
It's kind of like some of it's a little blue grassy.
(56:14):
Some it's like kind of like alt country a little bit,
and songs about like relationships and life and family, not
giving up on people. It's really it's one of my
favorite things. We every dad. But if you like that
kind of music, go check it out. Three Ships. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:31):
I'll put links to all this stuff. In the show notes.
And then the last thing I wanted to ask was
for Brother Terry, if you have it. This episode is
really close to Christmas, and I'm not sure if it'll
release before, but it will be released very close to Christmas,
for or after Christmas songs. I was hoping you just
(57:00):
speak to like some of your either your favorite Christmas
songs or some of the paganistic viewpoints of some of
the most popular Christmas song culturally. What what do you
what do you have? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 6 (57:17):
Well, there's only two Christmas songs that I listened to,
and that's Mary, did you know?
Speaker 2 (57:23):
And No?
Speaker 6 (57:23):
Come let us adore him. But then, as I do
have to say, Brandon, I'm a little concerned because you've
got a Santa thing behind you. I just don't know
what it is. I'm gonna have to ask my team
to see if you can edit that out because I
(57:44):
don't know if I can be associated with that.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
Why not, Well just rearrange the letters, okay, Satan.
Speaker 6 (57:53):
Yeah, and you know, and you know, and then and
then the people say, oh, Saint Nicholas. It's like, but
you know, that's Catholic. I mean, what are we doing here?
What are we doing here? I mean it's like I'm
a Christian, you know, and so and so. Yeah, those
(58:14):
are my favorite. And then there's there actually is one
Amy Grant song that I weep and actually I only
sing it once a year because I get so overcome
by emotion that I actually have to save it for
Christmas Eve. And that's Breadth of Heaven. And I'll sing
it acapella over myself and I get so emotional, and
(58:36):
the whole family actually comes and sits around me on
Christmas Eve and I'll just sing it a cappella and
they'll begin to weep and cry. Yeah, it's powerful, but
I save that one for only once.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
Do you write? Do you write songs yourself?
Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (58:55):
But the Lord has not let me. He's only let
me release one. Uh actually, actually actually three, I've released three.
You can go on my website and see them.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
Okay, and uh, what is your website?
Speaker 2 (59:11):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (59:12):
It is www.
Speaker 6 (59:14):
My My nephew did it for me, and I don't
understand the internet, but he he told me. My website
is www. Slash instant instant Graham slash bro Terry website
dot e d U I think is what it is.
(59:37):
But but I wrote a song. I wrote a song
recently called h It's Me Hi, I'm anointed, It's me.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
That's the full title. I would love to hear that.
How do your songs come to you? That's my last
question for you.
Speaker 2 (59:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (59:57):
Well, typically what I'll do is I'll lock myself up
my career closet for about three days and you know,
Jerry shall slide in crackers and pedia light so I
can just stay.
Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
I can stay on my feet.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
And that's how I get them.
Speaker 6 (01:00:12):
I go into the cave, ah and and I get downloads.
So you are talking about co writing. That sounds like
some kind of intellectual kind of business mess you needed
to get with God and to get a download.
Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
That's all that matters.
Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
Thank you both for being here. This is this moreph Man.
We could do this all day with you.
Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Oh Man, love it. Thank you so much Brandon for
having us man awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Thanks for working out as part two.
Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
That means the world to me. I've been listening to
Leland Records for three well almost two weeks now for
these episodes on the reel. They've been really encouraging to me,
and so I appreciate you both. If you'll stay in
touch and all that.
Speaker 5 (01:01:07):
Thanks man, Brandon is so fun, Thanks dude.
Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Work Tapes is produced by Me Brandon Carswell Special thanks
to Leland Mooring and Jack Moring. This episode was filmed
and edited by Sean Carswell. Don't forget to like and
subscribe everywhere you listen to Work Tapes
Welcome to Work Tapes. This is a podcast where we
tear up our songs. Why with the song written? What's
it about? What's the context and emotion behind it? Where
were you at the time, what were you going through?
How did certain lines come to you? What's the inspiration?
How long did it take to write? I'm Brandon Carswell
and I'm fascinated with songwriting and how songs are built
(00:29):
from the ground up. It's easy to hear a full
production song on the radio and dismiss.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Its origin story.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I want to hear the rough draft of the song
or the work tape. I want to explore the very beginning,
how songs that move us and make us move our more.
(00:58):
All right, everyone, welcome to another edition of Work Tapes.
My name is Brandon as usual and this is a
part two with Leland Mooring also joined by Jack his brother.
Thank you guys for being here, Thanks Leland for continuing
our conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Thanks no, thanks for inviting us back on man and
we get to have my bro on this so good.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Just be told to our listeners we lost the audio
of half of the episode before, so we're like, let's
just turn it into a two parter and Leland's like,
let's bring my brother Jack and we can talk about
all kinds of stuff. So quick introduction. I gave Leland
his introduction on episode fifty six, so you'll have to
(01:48):
go back and listen. If you don't know who he is,
sorry about that. Jack is our new guest today. Jack
is an author, co founder of the band Leland, and
pastor of Celebration of Life and Franklin, Tennessee. Welcome to
work Tapes.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Jack, Yeah, so good to be on. Thanks for having me, Brandon.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, of course, I'm I'm excited. I was telling Leland
and the first episode that we did. I've been a
fan of the band for years and years and years.
Used to play your songs at our church when I
would lead or do whatever. So it's so fun for
me personally to have you guys here. I followed you all,
(02:31):
I've followed your music paths. I was introduced to Brother
Terry at some point and then didn't connect the dots,
and then I was like, oh my gosh, that's Jack
from Leland. So maybe if the spirit moves we can
get a little and a little combo going with Brother Terry. Absolutely,
(02:56):
So Leland, let's just jump where we le talk before
the end of the episode where you were saying one
of your biggest influences was Carmen, which was.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
That's right, That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
That's what we were most is in my house to night. Yes,
I had a Carmen record called Yo Kids. I remember
that one and it was like this whole cartoon he
had like a whole cartoon cat thing going on.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yo. It's like, you know, we we got to we
got to meet him actually years ago, and he is like,
that was the sweetest guy in the world.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
That's what I've heard.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
He was so nice and is uh and I just
but I remember his chest hair.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Being so prominent, prominent.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It was I felt like I was talking to his
chest there.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
But he was so sweet and it was so nice.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Oh my gosh, Yeah, we were. I actually was a
big Carmon Carmen Fairman as a kid, you know. But
what was the funny I'd mentioned this in the last podcast,
but and me and Jack Jack could help elaborate on this.
But so we grew up. My parents were worship pastors
at a church in East Texas, and you know, I
mean you probably similar upbringing, going to the very kind
(04:16):
of charismatic Southern church in the nineties, there was a
particular culture where you would have like really interesting, like
special guests come in and so it was either like
awesome musical special guests or just you know, wild characters.
So like, I'm not sure if Carmen came through or
if you like, did he come. I don't think he
came to our church, but he might have. Yeah, we've
(04:39):
saw ads about a tour or something that was coming
through town. But I do remember though, around that same
time that I was listening and watching Carmen music videos,
we had the Power Team come to our church and
they were awesome. They were awesome.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
I saw them.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I used to.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I grew up in Nashville and we went to christ
Church on Old Hickory Bill of our all of you
listening locally, that's where I grew up. Power Team came.
I remember the Power Team. It was amazing. And also
I just remembered that my first concert ever was a
Carmen concert.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Wow, wow, you.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Just remember that for the first time. But yes, Power Team.
They don't do that anymore, do they.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
You know they don't. I think we've gotten boring now.
We're so used to be kind of like like exciting,
like you didn't know what's a man that was good?
And now it's.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Look, we had guys laying on a bed of nails
to preach the gospel and now we're just using the Bible.
What is going on?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, it's like, who's tearing a phone book anymore? I mean,
come on, It's like, dude, can you even tear a
phone book? Pastor?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
How are we going to exemplify the power of God
without something tangible like that?
Speaker 3 (05:58):
I know, samsuis.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
That people something to grab onto, you.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Know, Oh my gosh, I love it.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
But I will say I can't remember who it was.
It might have been just one of the roadies or
something that was working with the Power Team. I remember
I was like maybe eight years old. My parents were
the worship pastors at this church, and so because of that,
you know, when your parents work at the church, you're
just at the church all the time, like as a kid.
(06:33):
So we were just there. I think it was after school,
and mom and dad were because there was going to
be some music before the Power Team, so they were
up there doing stuff. Is midweek, and I remember on
a loading dock at the back of the church, the
Power Team like trucks with all their gear and stuff
had just pulled up, and I remember, like, you know,
(06:54):
I'm like one of the only kids there, so I'm like,
oh my gosh, I get to like watch them a
little of their years and stuff. I just remember one
of the Power Team roadies like yelled at me, we're
getting too close to the dry Eyes. That is hysterical,
(07:20):
just like a total like you're so stressed. I need
to keep.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Oh that's fun.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Best of a dry Eyes.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Probably didn't anywhere. If we keep talking about the Power Team,
we're Oh.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
My god, you're gonna have to change the subject.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Bro, We're gonna lose another episode. I'm gonna need to
do five Leland.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Moore, Oh my gosh. Oh that's that was That was
a good That was a good opener.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Though it's such a good opener, I'm going to try
to get those guys on that podcast. That would be awesome,
like the backstory of the Power to.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You know, they have awesome stories, dude, Like you know
they've got stories. Yeah, it would be Actually, that'd be awesome. No,
but we, like I think I mentioned before, like because
we so we grew like we grew up around like
it was either Southern gospel or like quartet singing groups
like or black gospel music and that was kind of
(08:28):
like for me, that was like my first memories of
music was like around those kinds of songs, and you know,
we would like sing specials and stuff. It was.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
It was funny watching you know my mom, our parents,
who were very you know into the black gospel kind
of stuff. Uh, you know when when Darlene and Hillsong
kind of started taking off, and then also Passion, like
that one day Passion record and like you can also
(09:00):
watch it in real time on our mom's face like
going like this is so weird, but it's so good,
like you know, like and she kind of you know,
credit to her because it was a total new genre
for her, but like she recognized a good song. She
recognized that God was on it, you know, and like
(09:22):
so we started singing a lot of those songs.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
You know, yeah, we remember, go.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Ahead, No, I was just saying that. I think I
mentioned the last podcast. It just it was like I
remember those two albums were introduced to like our Lincoln
Town card that our family was like traveling around the
country in It was like the two records that were
kind of because it was mostly seven gospel Black gospel,
and then there were these two records. That was the
Passion One Day album and then it was that You
(09:49):
Are Near album by Hillsong and.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Other records like like Sonic Floods record that was so huge. Yes,
that was around the same time, and I was going
to say, we attended like predominantly black church and we
they had me do the special off Tory music one time,
and I chose hard of Worship to sing, Yeah, it's fine.
(10:17):
But I remember we did a sound check because it
was a televised church and on you know, you get
there super early to do all they run all the stuff,
and then I do my soundcheck and to play the
whole song, and like the music director or the tech
director was like, huh, that was different. That was the
(10:40):
response to that song. That was largely the response when
I did it. But it just kind of speaks to
what was happening like musically and that genre of music.
It was starting to totally shift from what you said,
like the Southern gospel stuff, which is what we grew
up with. My parents were in those groups, and then
shifting in the nineties late nineties early two thousands into
(11:04):
what you're just talking about with Hillsong and Passion and
then you yes, being informed by that, but also being
informed by secular bands like Travis and you two and
Radiohead like we talked about before. And so I would
love to get y'all's take on working as brothers and
(11:27):
starting as brothers and like the family dynamic of writing
together and performing together and singing together, and what that was,
what that was like for you? Was it did you
find it to be easy to work together or sometimes
siblings can butt heads?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Pretty hard? Or was it natural? You know you know
where I'm going with it.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah, Well, I think for us it felt really natural
because you know, that was the way we were rais
and you know, it's kind of the values of our
family was that we just did everything together.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So grateful for.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
But and you know, me and Leland are are very
different in a lot of ways, but we have a
lot of things in common. And so yeah, I mean
when we were kids, I mean like we were always
like fighting. I was always being the mean big brother,
you know, yeah, but I think I was.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I was always hyper adhd just all of it, all
of your grill, kid, right.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
But by the time we were teenagers though, I mean
we were we were on the same page in life,
you know, and and love the same things. So so yeah,
I think it worked pretty well. I mean, I'm very
thankful for it. And like, like I said, it was
kind of all we knew. It's just like breathing. We
didn't really think about it, and so.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, I don't even I don't even think when when
Jack and I started writing songs together, I don't know
that we knew there was a word for it called
co writing. I don't even think that we knew there
was like something called co writing or a whole We
knew nothing really about like the massive culture songwriting or
any of that stuff. We just our parents were writers, songwriters,
(13:17):
and they had kind of instilled some things in us
as kids. They sort of pulled out songs out of
us whenever we would get inspired with things. My mom's
a singer and she's a great lyricist, and my dad
is a melody guy, keys guy, so he would they
would both kind of pull it out of both of us.
And then Jack and I started writing really songs that
(13:41):
kind of started and were inspired by these prayer and
worship services that we would do with our cousins and
our cousins friends, and that was our youth group, you know.
And we started like in our house and then started
meeting in like pavilion buildings around town in Baytown where
we're from, and because we kind of outgrew the home
(14:02):
and so all these songs just kind of started. It
was like a maybe a melody of something, a chorus
of something would happen in prayer or in these kind
of worship services with with you know, cold metal chairs
and PD speakers on sticks, you know, and for us
literally a really good they are awesome. I actual kind
(14:23):
of wish we had that PA still no, but that's
it was really special though. It's awesome, like I think,
and you know, I remember one of the first things
I kind of realized early on that well, one, we're brothers.
So it was easy in that sense because we being
being blood and knowing each other and in the same
culture and same family. But also too, I realized early
(14:46):
on that our personality differences were actually a strength in collaborating.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
What and what ways, Like Leland you mentioned being more
like hyperactive or whatever, and Jack you're more I mean,
you're both funny, but I assume Jack, maybe you're more reserved.
I don't know, maybe tell us that dynamic and how
that how that worked on stage and how it worked
on writing.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Right, Yeah, it is interesting. It's like, uh so, yeah,
growing up I was little, was a little more you know,
reserved as compared to Leland. You know, Leland was higher energy,
you know, but I guess compared to other people who
were both kind of like talkative or whatever. But yeah,
(15:35):
I was always a little more interest introspective, you know.
And but creatively it was interesting just the way Leland's wired.
He's always coming up with ideas and I wasn't like that.
I was more of a slow burn, you know. And
so how it started was Leland would get these ideas,
(15:55):
I mean all the time, and then I would kind
of come along and kind of help him finish them
or filling any gaps. You know. Sometimes he would get
it all, you know, kind of by himself, but often,
you know, we would write together.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
So yeah, yeah, it also it seemed like too that
like Jack, Jack has always been a really great communicator
and a really really great even teacher and public speaker
and preacher, and so during that time too, when we
were you know, just pouring into this little group of kids.
(16:32):
It's like thirty or forty of us, and then eventually
grew larger. Jack was pastoring our youth group, and so
I think also he was in a he's always you know,
been an avid reader, but he was also in a
space of like preaching and teaching every single week. So
you know, that puts you in a really good headspace
for like the conceptualization of ideas like what are we
(16:54):
thinking about? What are we talking about in the song?
You know?
Speaker 3 (16:57):
So so I kind of yeah, oh sorry, I kind
of I buy default, just kind of became the little
resident theologian. Yeah, with no qualifications whatsoever for being the
resident theologian, but but you know what I mean within
our micro cross cause them, it's like that was, yeah,
I was. I was just a few head a few
(17:19):
years ahead of Leland and so so yeah, yeah, I
kind of would bring like a theological aside.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Well, a good reader makes a good writer, right, I
mean that's exactly right, Or it makes a better writer.
I mean, you don't have to read to write, but
it definitely helps a ton if you want to write.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, cereal, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Songs that make sense, which I want to get into
as far as worship and the arts and all that stuff.
But let's move into talking about Still Mighty before we
lose this episode again. It is called work tapes. You
have the only episode so far without a work tape,
and by the way, I love it, so congratulations fifty
(18:04):
something episodes.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
And just breaking trends right now.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, I want to talk about Still Mighty. I want
to know where that song came from. But what we'll
do is we'll pause and listen to that work tape
and for this work tape you sent me to You
sent me a voice memo, and you sent me a
video of you at the piano. So I'm gonna mesh
(18:28):
those together and we'll listen to the whole thing, and
then we'll talk about the song.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
I'm more Man travel and your son no wavesuras and
oh my anxiety. It means you.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
See me through the other.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I'm more man, your son, your waters rising big on
hold long time, oh my anxiety, and mentioning you and
you see me through.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Here the sun, here, the side, here, the side.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
You want to share that cost.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
The de.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I love this song. This is when I heard it
(20:37):
my brother and I were setting up for the first
episode we did, and I had it playing in the
living room and I was like, man, honestly, this sounds
I don't mean this in a negative way, of course,
this is the kind of music you do. If this
was a uh secular song, it would I think it
(20:59):
would be blown up. It's just like a cool pop
like the music is cool and poppy, the melodies just hit.
It sounds like modern pop. And for you to be
able to roll that into it being a worship song
is brilliant to me. Which is what I've always loved
about the band and what you all did and do
(21:23):
is that it never felt like the It never felt
like the worn out church music that happens. It's never
felt like that. Like my favorite record y'all did was
opposite way. And I think even of all the records,
to me, that one is a little more like on
(21:45):
the side. But those songs and the tones and the
band and everything was just like spot on for me.
So still mighty awesome where this Man, let's talk about
the music part first and then we'll get into what
it's about. So how did this formula?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Sure? Yeah, well, I mean the song still mighty is
you know, it's on our latest record that we released,
which was coming up on over over a year now,
it's called City of God. And it's funny that you
mentioned like some of our earlier records like opposite Way
and sounding melodies. When we were making City of God
(22:27):
with the band, and even when Casey and I was
in the band, we were writing songs and working on
our pre production, it felt the most like some of
our oldest, older records. Even though the record City of
God is technically recorded live in a space there's no audience,
but live with the band with like five singers, and
(22:50):
we kept a lot of it and then we overdid
some things here and there in post. But that being said,
it felt a lot like making you know, opposite way
or sound and melodies in lots of ways, which was
really strange because I didn't expect that until we were
in it. I was like, oh my gosh, this feels
much more kind of like you know, it felt more
like breathing. It felt kind of like a spiritual assignment,
(23:14):
you know, and less you know, to use more spiritual
language and less less than like just making a record.
And so but the song is still mighty and actually
a lot of the songs on City of God started
kind of like right here at the at this piano,
like in my house, and like I think the video
it's it's the same, just this living room. It's a
(23:35):
good room for singing, and like it's got tile floor.
So yeah, I was just middle of twenty twenty in
the craziness of the pandemic and everything else that was
going on in the world at the time, and like
every other you know, songwriter, I just found myself dealing
with lots of like fear anxiety in twenty that year.
(23:59):
I'd never had a panic attack before. I didn't even
really know what it was like to experience something like that.
And so that happened like on a Sunday morning, headed
to like go lead worship, and that was crazy. And
like so I found myself just opening up the Bible
here when the kids were asleep, and I really felt
(24:23):
like I was meeting Jesus again or experiencing his presence again,
and like the Psalms and the Old Testament, And that
was so strange because you know, normally I would go
to the Gospels, like John's my favorite book, and the Gospels,
or even like the letters like First John, Second John,
all the love Gospels. I love those, and so but
(24:43):
I found myself in Psalms, and I think I can't
remember exactly which psalm it was. I think I referenced
it in that video, but it was one of the
songs that talks about Goving our defense and meaning our tower,
our strength, our refuge in the midst of everything happening
in the world. And so Still Mighty was maybe the
second or third idea that kind of dropped in that year,
(25:05):
just and I just I didn't even think it was
going to be a song. I was like, I'm just
gonna put it on Instagram. It's just it felt like
a piece of something. It didn't really feel like a
full song. Yeah, it was just technically the chorus, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
So you wrote a piece first, like you wrote the
course of the melodies and all that first.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, exactly. And then just kind of like I tracked.
I don't normally do this, but like I was like,
I want to hear what a couple of vocals sound
like on it. So I just tracked him on my
phone like voice memo style on to like a click,
and then I put them together in garage band and
then I put the video out that way. And so
(25:42):
so it was. It was a really fun experiment though,
and it seemed like a lot of people really gravitated
towards a new or fresh melody, a more modern sounding melody,
and even a pocket driven melody to an Old Testament
passage of scripture. Yeah, you know, and I tried not
to change the scripture as much as I could, right,
(26:04):
And so that happened. And then fast forward, you know,
we get like four or five months into this process
of more songs had been kind of like deposited, and
we were working on more of these songs. This idea
of a whole record was kind of revealing itself in
the process, like, oh, this is actually this is not
necessarily a live worship album, even though there's going to
(26:25):
be lots of worshipful moments on it. We kind of
knew from the beginning this is going to be a
record that people listen to Monday is Saturday, not necessarily
singing every song on Sunday morning at church. This is
a record where we sing over people and sing two
people throughout their daily life and hopefully inspire them back
(26:45):
to the Word of God and back to some of
these Old Testament stories into places like the Psalms to
hopefully find Jesus in those contemplative spaces in their day,
like when they lie down, wake up.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well, let me ask you about that.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
So that was the whole thought, mind it.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, let me ask you about that, because is one
thing I'm curious about, which seems like a no brainer
question for a worship music writer, but I think it's
an important question, which is do you normally reference scripture
when you're writing and do you keep it as authentic
(27:20):
to scripture for the song. Is that kind of your viewpoint?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, Yeah, that's a really it's a really good question,
and I'm sure Jack Oil even have some good thoughts
on this too. I think, of course, the Bible is
always there. Scripture is always in front of you. I
think when you're when when I think about writing songs
for you know, Sunday Morning. First of all, some of
the best songs that I feel like I've ever been
(27:48):
a part of that work well on Sunday morning. I've
never really come from sitting down and going I'm going
to write a song for Sunday Morning today.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Most of the time, it's just you've got the have
a litlepin you're in a place of pursuing pursuing God,
and something happens, something's deposited, and then you can get
in rooms like that, but it's usually not finished and
finish the song, you know. But even in that finishing
process of trying to finish the song, the word of
God's always always there. Jack even he say that.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Yeah, I think you know. It's it's a both, you know,
both and kind of a thing like I think, you know,
sometimes it is fun to go to scripture and try
to try to stay as close to verbatim as possible
as a songwriter. It's a kind of a fun experiment
to you know what I mean, just trying to I
(28:42):
mean it's like I think if Eugene Peterson when he
wrote the message paraphrase, he wasn't trying to write the
message to paraphrase. He was a pastor. He was trying
to help his people learn how to pray in his church.
So he would take the psalms and paraphrase them and
just hand them to people and here, pray this. And
so I think that exercises a songwriter is really fun,
(29:05):
you know, to start with a scripture and paraphrase it.
But obviously the most important thing isn't quoting scripture directly
in our songs. The most important thing is are our
songs shaped by the Bible story, by the Gospel story?
Are are are they going against that?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Are?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
You know, are our songs agreeing with God? Are our
songs agreeing with the Bible? So that's obviously the most.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Important, right and not to take away from the conversation
about Still Mighty, but this is where it's going. So
that that's it gets me into like biblical worship and
writing for this conversation versus emotive it being emotionally driven.
(29:57):
And we all know, like you know, the the big guitars,
the big echoing delay pedals, the atmosphere at church or
at a it being a production or whatever leads it
stirs emotion, right, And so that's part of my angle
(30:17):
in asking this is because you have right like the
Puritan writers, like the hymns from the seventeen eighteen hundreds,
which are written so brilliantly, can also stir that emotion
without a fog machine. You know, you don't need anything.
(30:38):
You listen to it, you sing it, you sing it corporately.
It does something. It stirs that. But also you have
the big you know U two esque sound that obviously,
and this happens in pop music, any music, top forty whatever,
stirs your heart and you feel like some kind a
(31:00):
spiritual thing happening, when it could just be like an
emotional response to a sound. And so that's something that
I'm always curious to talk with about worship writers because
for me, I've tried to write these types of songs before,
and I always feel like it's like this tugle war
(31:22):
with me, like can I do this authentically? And the
answer is no, I don't know that I can do
it authentically and stay stay the part. So I know
I know my lane as far as the writer goes,
not that I wouldn't write about my faith or anything
like that, but hopefully you get where I'm going there,
and I would love to get both of your feedback
(31:44):
on or your thoughts on that and just in general
or as deep as you want to go.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, that's really good. Does it make sense I'm excited
that we're jumping off It does make sense that I'm
excited we're jumping off this cliff. Jack, you want to
go first, you have anything in you in your in
your heart us and then.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Sure, yeah, I think for me that that is that
is a great point. What what kind of came to
my mind, like a motive versus sort of theological is
just as a songwriter, I think you know when we
were told this from the beginning when we started writing songs,
(32:26):
if your song can't stand alone, like just on an
acoustic or just in a piano, it's not a really
great song, you know what I mean. Like in terms
of a songwriter. I mean, there are some songs that
are really really reliant on tracks and sounds and it's
moves you and it's fun and it's awesome. But in
(32:46):
terms of the craft of songwriting, if your song can't
stand alone without all that stuff, it's not a really
great song. And so I would say, what's cool about
some of those hymns to me that the peers and
hymns are all about the theological content. That's what it's
all about.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
You know, oftentimes the melodies aren't even that great. Sometimes
they are, but but those songs are just so good.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Theologically you can add an orchestra and add an organ
to the those songs. Right even even in the time
that they were written, you could have added all of
these emotive epic sounds to those songs, and you know
it would just improved the experience and and and that's great.
But to me, it's all about the standalone for me,
(33:35):
and and another thing I'll add and I'll leave them
go for it. But like, emotions aren't, obviously, you know,
necessarily bad. And I hear what you're saying, is that,
am I being moved because of the the ideas of
this song? Or am I being moved because of the
(33:57):
sounds I'm hearing? And you know, it's very dangerous obviously
if the ideas we're communicating aren't very strong and we're
relying on emotions, So obviously we have to fight for
the theological content to be strong. As long as that's good,
go for it, man, Like, yeah, I think I think
all the emotions are great.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
What I'm suggesting would be not far off from what
you do with Brothers, Harry, and that the music side
of it is there can be the you could equate
it to like the prosperity Gospel versus the actual gospel,
you know what I'm saying. So I'm definitely not saying
(34:38):
that emotions are wrong. Obviously created by God, we write
them or being stirred by a song emotionally is bad.
It's not just a sake of conversation and want your
thoughts as as leaders in the faith and what you
all do. I think it's I think it's good to
(35:00):
talk about and it's good for me to check myself.
You know. I came from the same kind of background
that you guys came from, and I ended up a
few years ago at a more traditional reform church and
I would go in and it was all the hymns
that I was not raised with those, so I didn't
know them well. First day I walk in there, it's
(35:23):
just a piano, some violins and the whole church is
singing them and that's what you can hear. And I
was like, whoa, this is different, this is new for me.
And it was moving and I didn't need any of
the you know, big you know CCM worship songs. I
didn't need that. Yeah, And it made me check myself like, oh,
(35:46):
there's something, there's something here also.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Totally. And you know what's actually amazing about that is
I've me and Jack have talked about this a lot
over the years that you know, pretty early on we
were introduced at you know, seventeen and eighteen years old
to a whole breadth of the Body of Christ that
we had no clue about, you know, because we were
in East Texas, Charismatic, pretty similar upbringing, and so we
(36:15):
were thrust into like, you know, going to the Netherlands
or going to London and sitting in the linking cathedral
at Anglican Church and listening to this high church choir
sing the psalms, you know, and then they perform a
liturgy of sorts and you just go like, what is
the word liturgy? And you know what that was. And
(36:37):
so we're introduced all of a sudden to these Orthodox
traditions that are so beautiful and so rich and similar
to how maybe even some of the early Protestant hymns
were very very rich in theology. All of a sudden,
we're in these services that the liturgy is just very deep,
and you realize it's like I've encountered the same Holy
(37:00):
Spirit or the same presence of Jesus in the in
a cathedral and Lincoln, uh as I have in a
youth group service in a Charismatic church when I was sixteen,
you know, in a prayer night. I think that I
was talking to Jack about this the other day. It
does seem like that right now we're living in a
(37:21):
really interesting time of reformation and revival, and I think
those two things are kind of happening at the same time.
And what that looks like to me on the surface
at least, is lots of people our age and younger.
There's kind of like a mass exod is happening from
(37:44):
people leaving certain traditions in the faith and finding Christ
in another tradition in the faith, finding finding the Lord,
the presence of Jesus somewhere else. So it might look
like someone like us leaving the leaving what the kind
of they grew up in and find finding Jesus in
in a more mainline tradition. It might look like someone
(38:06):
I've had just as many friends or others that have
left certain old traditions of the faith, like Catholic or Orthodox,
and are finding Christ in a charismatic church. And it's
like I think, I think it goes back to the
Scripture where Christ is talking to the Pharisees. You know,
you search the scriptures to to find me, but you've
you've lost me in the midst of all of this,
(38:30):
and tradition is not a bading. Tradition is a good thing.
But you've lost me in the midst of all this stuff.
You've you've you've missed a person of Christ. And I
think if you're if you're fine. If it's if you're
in a church and and what's being preached is not heretical,
and it is, it harmonizes with the Gospel. It's in
(38:51):
union with the person of the Holy Spirit. The only
you feel the touch of the Spirit of God in
your life, and which is like the agreement of what's happening.
And more than anything, it leads you to a life
of true worship, which James talks about that at the
end of the day, none of us can really be
the arbiters of what what's real worship and what's better
(39:11):
worship or not. I think we can go to the
Book of James and see that the scripture does say
true worship is taking care of the poor and the needy,
taking care of the widow and the orphan. You know,
Jesus talking about what the sheep do it versus the goats.
They go after the lost one, they're hurting one. They
(39:32):
go after the the one that's forgotten by society, they
go to the prisoner, they welcome into stranger and it's like, man,
if you're if you're it doesn't I honestly, I don't
care what tradition you're in. If you're in a church
and the presence of God you're feeling, uh, and the
word of God, the Gospel is being preached to you,
is leading your life to do those things, then like
(39:55):
that's Jesus. It's like you know. And so last thing
I'll say here, I just had a really cool conversation
with a friend of mine who grew up Eastern Orthodox
and finds himself now kind of more in the charismatic space,
but he grew up very Orthodox, and we were talking
(40:18):
about the beauty and all the different traditions and a
little bit in line of this conversation on the exclusivity
of just like that whole idea of who's got it,
you know, who's doing it right? And I think, you know,
the way we landed as men, we just I love
the beauty of the diversity of the body of Christ.
But the common denominator I find in all those places
(40:41):
when I do the rolodex and go back in my
own story is I find the character of Jesus, and
I find the compassion of Jesus or for the one
that's being forgotten by society. I find that alive and
at work in that community or those people, despite what
they're particular differences that theology say.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
It reminds me of like a Tim Keller talked about
how God gets our attention and how everyone he does
it a little differently for everyone like you, like I
might need a whisper and you might need a scream,
you know, a yelling at That's so true, and I
think you're right one hundred percent. I think there's a
(41:24):
lot of theological arguments that we don't have to have
what we do.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, let's can I say something else to you that
I thought was really cool is that it does seem
like there is On that conversation with my friend who
cript more orthodox he was, he was talking about the
beauty of those traditions and how they're you know, there's
(41:52):
there's a high value of tradition and liturgy, and and
I don't think they would say it's a it's above scripture,
but it's there's there's a little strong value of it,
and and everything's inspired by scripture of course, like all
the liturgy and the Orthodox churches, you know, take it
right off of Revelation, you know, the Book of the Apocalypse.
They pull all their service tradition off of that. And
(42:13):
I think whereas in the in the Protestant tradition that
we all grew up in charismatic sitting in wsconsin Protestantism
is you know, we tend to have a large view
of scripture, you know, sol scripture or whatever you want
to call the scripture alone, and I think they're they're
(42:36):
kind of is like e merging of the two happening.
You know, you're finding churches that have been very scripture
heavy for a long time, and that's a beautiful thing.
Are are discovering the Lord and things like there's a
friends of mine are taking communion every service now churches
that churches that would be only taking it every you know,
(42:57):
once every three months, are now going why are we
doing that? Like we should be doing this every single
service every time we gather. We should not forget to
take in the meal.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
You know, I think you're.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Right like spot on, because there's something I noticed when
I moved into more of a reform teaching, which was
I struggled in the beginning with letting go of some
of the charismatic parts. Of course, like I'm looking, I'm
trying to actually find what's heretical about any of it
(43:31):
and dump that part. But I could never totally get
away from Like there's a a tendency in the charismatic church,
at least that I grew up in, to hyper focus
on what's existential, you know, all of the spiritual stuff,
and then finding a reformed teachings to be a little
(44:00):
bit like I say this kindly and I don't mean
it how it sounds like a little bit no, it
all like you have a there's like an arrogance behind
the study, you know what I mean, Like, well, I've
studied this, this, and this is what this means, and
you break it down and all this stuff. But I
think you're right about the joining of the two happening
because you cannot deny the spiritual existential things, and you
(44:24):
cannot deny the absolute knowledge.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
That's right, right, that's exactly right. And I think I
think you find both in Jesus. I think Jesus. This
might have been I can't remember who said this, but
they said Jesus is perfect theology. I think if you
look at the incarnate Christ and you read him in
the gospels, that is perfect theology. That's Christ. And so
(44:49):
when I look at Jesus, I see both. I see
the absolute truths of God that are beautiful, that are
like rock in the foundation that we can stand on.
We'll see like you know, you see the one who,
like Moses, was afraid to go into the cloud with
this one, you know, like you see you see the
(45:09):
mystery of God, you know, And it's I think he
is both, you know, and he's he's the one who
gets down with us in the dirt, but he's also
the one who, like when he transcends on the top
of the mountain, they fall down in worship and go
who is who is this? Like here forever because and
(45:31):
just some.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Of the super super quick about still still mighty Okay.
That song to me is actually a good example of
what we're talking about. The chorus itself was I didn't
write on that song, so I can speak just kind
of like third you know, third person fan fan here
(45:53):
the chorus is like really creedle, like it's, oh Lord,
you are the shield that guards me, you are the
hand that feeds me. I cry out, and you answer.
I lay down and you cover. I wake up and
discover all your works and wonders. You're still mighty. Nations rise,
but the Lord is on his thrown in his built.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
So it's all the.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Stuff about him, about God that sounds, like I said,
almost like a creed that you're reciting. And then the
verse is very experiential and personal. So I'm warm and
dry when I'm by your side. The seas are rising,
(46:36):
but I hold on tight. All my anxiety melts in
your eyes. So so it's like, I think it's such
a cool blend of like the verse is like an
emotional personal experience, and then we lift our eyes to God.
This is who he is now in the chorus, and
then it sounds like an awesome Michael Jackson song from
the you know, you know what I'm saying. It's like,
(46:59):
what is that opening right now?
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Like and that's that's the trick between you know, like uh,
worship music and and I mean, I think our culture
is pretty well beyond this argument. It would have been
something like in the maybe eighties nineties. I don't know
where can worship be artistic? Can it be influenced by
modern pop or whatever, and I just think that that
(47:23):
that argument is pretty washed up. But because you cannot
know how someone's going to be musically influenced, maybe they
were in something and not even in the faith. What
are you going to just dump all your your musical
influences and not write how you write? It doesn't it
doesn't work. But you're you're exactly right. Like I mentioned
(47:48):
before to you Leland that this song immediately reminded me
of Isaiah. I want to say forty three. It's one
of those forties. Yeah, though the waters rise, they will
not overtake you. So what you're saying, Jack, like the
(48:10):
crying out in the verses and then the proclamation of
who God is is right there in the whole song's
it's great, which is a good pivot to go into.
I mentioned at the top of this episode that Jack
is an author and wrote a book called Portrait of God.
So this would be a good little segue into since
(48:32):
we're already talking about kind of some attributes of God,
tell us about that book. What moved you to write it?
All of those things?
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (48:44):
You know, actually your podcast idea is given me an
idea for a podcast right now. It would be cool
to have like a book version of work tapes podcast,
so like you have people on and they have to
read early versions of their manuscript, which would be terrifying,
(49:07):
but there were some yeah exactly first draft. So yeah,
it was it was an outworking of like a long
time of like singing about God and you know from
our band days of writing these songs and and like
A w Toaster was really formative for me. His book
(49:30):
Knowledge of the Holy and a lot of his works
about the attributes of God. So I just started writing
as just to encourage myself, you know, initially, pretty quickly
the book idea started taking shape and so so yeah,
the whole concept was, hey, like write write a book
(49:51):
for my generation about the attributes of God, like what
is he like? Because there's all these bad and wrong
ideas that we pick up along.
Speaker 6 (49:58):
The way about him.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
But use stories from like people in church history to
help give examples of those attributes. So like on the
chapter on God's Joy, I share the story of C. S.
Lewis who experienced this kind of like really fun definition
of joy and how God used that in his life.
(50:20):
The chapter on God's Holiness, I talk about Saint Augustine
who kind of had to leave this life of it's
sort of like, you know, kind of kind of sinful
lifestyle to to devote his life to God. So yeah,
so that's the concept of the book. And it's fun
because it does feel like just another version of songwriting
(50:41):
in a sense, helping kind of point people to God.
And because in the in the same way that songs
shape our theology, obviously, obviously books do as well. So
it's kind of my my little contribution to the conversation
to kind of reset us and and bring us back
to like what are the fundamentals of about God's nature.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Yeah, it's a great book. I haven't finished it, but
I'm on I think I'm on three, chapter three, and
it's an easy read as well. I was, I was
talking to Leland about that before, like it's not it's
not so far out there, Like you're talking about very
educated people and kind of giants in the faith, and
(51:24):
it would be easy to take their words and make
them even more complicated than they are are sometimes, you know,
Lewis had such a gift for taking an abstract idea
and making it simply and plain so we could digest it. Yeah,
A lot of those guys did, so, Yeah, congratulations on
(51:44):
that book. I would hope that everyone would go pick
it up, even if you're not a believer, just check
it out because there's there's good there's good stories in there,
there's good things that are encouraging. You know. Whereever you
are in your life, what's going on with uh, let's
(52:07):
talk about what's coming up for you, Louland. What what
are you doing? Where can people find you musically? Yeah,
what's on the horizon?
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Well, just on social media probably would be first. You know,
we've we're kind of slowly, like I think it just
kind of happens naturally. We're slowly working on new music
for maybe a new Leland record, so I guess be
able to look out for that. That could be a
(52:40):
ways away. But this next year we definitely want to
hop in the bat Cave again and start working on
working on stuff. So maybe it'll be a studio record.
We're not really sure. They have a couple of ideas,
but they're kind of sounding pretty nostalgic right now, Like
there's lots of guitars and uh, and so that's been
(53:01):
a lot of fun and so we'll see what happens
with that. I'm I'm on a project with some friends
at some of them are at Elevation. Some of their
outside of Elevation called Sons of Sunday and you can
follow that on Instagram. That's like a brand new thing.
Got a song coming out in January seventeenth. I think
(53:25):
it's actually two songs on the same day, so that
whole projects like kind of like if you like folky,
uh sort of a little bit a little bit blue
grassy swamp rock with like if you like that kind
of stuff. I just started a probably Okay, well then
you'll nerd out over it because we it's pretty fun.
So that's coming out next year. Yeah, lots of that's
(53:48):
kind of it's kind of it doing a lot of
songwriting and just being a dad. I've got a we've
got a third kid on the way, dude.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
Which is crazy. It's amazing, so insane. I meant to
give you a gift for that. I had a gift
for you and I forgot to give it to you
because you're having your first son.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
But oh yeah, thank you. Yeah, we're so pumped. We
have two beautiful girls and I have like I've been
leaving vicously through like my brother and all my other
friends that go on the What is it like to
be a boy? Dad? I can't wait to have a
wrestle buddy.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
I've never had girls, but I know boys are fun.
I do know that.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (54:23):
What about you, Jack, what's going on with you? And
obviously the book and everything.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
Yeah, you know, last year, this year has been that's
been a big project. Obviously, the book came out in August,
so you know, promoting that, and it's so interesting. You
write a book, but then you have to like make
sure people know about it, you know, So I would
like to just write, but yeah, but I passed her.
So we're planting a church and so we're you know,
(54:50):
right in the in the weeds and in the thick
of that, and it's exciting and fun and so so
really that's what I spend most of my time on
is focusing on the church past and then and I
am starting to to kind of percolate on some other
book ideas and stuff like that and just just write
for fun and and and also a goal this year too,
(55:13):
for for twenty five is to do more songwriting as well.
So I'm with integrity and so I still love to
do that. It's just kind of scheduling it, you know,
because our life is pretty full right now. But I
am excited about that as well. So so yeah, man
got the credit.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Also, I'll also say too on on Jack as a songwriter.
And there's a project that we put out what have
been a couple of years ago. Now I don't we
we talked about a little bit on socials, but you
know how that is. But it's called it's called Three
Ships s h I pps my mom's maid name and
(55:53):
so me and my brother and my little sister. We
did this like seven or eight song ep nice at
one of our favorite studios in Nashville a couple of
years ago called Smokestack Studios with Paul mot At its
place cool and it's just three it's three part harmony.
It's kind of like some of it's a little blue grassy.
(56:14):
Some it's like kind of like alt country a little bit,
and songs about like relationships and life and family, not
giving up on people. It's really it's one of my
favorite things. We every dad. But if you like that
kind of music, go check it out. Three Ships. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:31):
I'll put links to all this stuff. In the show notes.
And then the last thing I wanted to ask was
for Brother Terry, if you have it. This episode is
really close to Christmas, and I'm not sure if it'll
release before, but it will be released very close to Christmas,
for or after Christmas songs. I was hoping you just
(57:00):
speak to like some of your either your favorite Christmas
songs or some of the paganistic viewpoints of some of
the most popular Christmas song culturally. What what do you
what do you have? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 6 (57:17):
Well, there's only two Christmas songs that I listened to,
and that's Mary, did you know?
Speaker 2 (57:23):
And No?
Speaker 6 (57:23):
Come let us adore him. But then, as I do
have to say, Brandon, I'm a little concerned because you've
got a Santa thing behind you. I just don't know
what it is. I'm gonna have to ask my team
to see if you can edit that out because I
(57:44):
don't know if I can be associated with that.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
Why not, Well just rearrange the letters, okay, Satan.
Speaker 6 (57:53):
Yeah, and you know, and you know, and then and
then the people say, oh, Saint Nicholas. It's like, but
you know, that's Catholic. I mean, what are we doing here?
What are we doing here? I mean it's like I'm
a Christian, you know, and so and so. Yeah, those
(58:14):
are my favorite. And then there's there actually is one
Amy Grant song that I weep and actually I only
sing it once a year because I get so overcome
by emotion that I actually have to save it for
Christmas Eve. And that's Breadth of Heaven. And I'll sing
it acapella over myself and I get so emotional, and
(58:36):
the whole family actually comes and sits around me on
Christmas Eve and I'll just sing it a cappella and
they'll begin to weep and cry. Yeah, it's powerful, but
I save that one for only once.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
Do you write? Do you write songs yourself?
Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (58:55):
But the Lord has not let me. He's only let
me release one. Uh actually, actually actually three, I've released three.
You can go on my website and see them.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
Okay, and uh, what is your website?
Speaker 2 (59:11):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (59:12):
It is www.
Speaker 6 (59:14):
My My nephew did it for me, and I don't
understand the internet, but he he told me. My website
is www. Slash instant instant Graham slash bro Terry website
dot e d U I think is what it is.
(59:37):
But but I wrote a song. I wrote a song
recently called h It's Me Hi, I'm anointed, It's me.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
That's the full title. I would love to hear that.
How do your songs come to you? That's my last
question for you.
Speaker 2 (59:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (59:57):
Well, typically what I'll do is I'll lock myself up
my career closet for about three days and you know,
Jerry shall slide in crackers and pedia light so I
can just stay.
Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
I can stay on my feet.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
And that's how I get them.
Speaker 6 (01:00:12):
I go into the cave, ah and and I get downloads.
So you are talking about co writing. That sounds like
some kind of intellectual kind of business mess you needed
to get with God and to get a download.
Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
That's all that matters.
Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
Thank you both for being here. This is this moreph Man.
We could do this all day with you.
Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Oh Man, love it. Thank you so much Brandon for
having us man awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Thanks for working out as part two.
Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
That means the world to me. I've been listening to
Leland Records for three well almost two weeks now for
these episodes on the reel. They've been really encouraging to me,
and so I appreciate you both. If you'll stay in
touch and all that.
Speaker 5 (01:01:07):
Thanks man, Brandon is so fun, Thanks dude.
Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Work Tapes is produced by Me Brandon Carswell Special thanks
to Leland Mooring and Jack Moring. This episode was filmed
and edited by Sean Carswell. Don't forget to like and
subscribe everywhere you listen to Work Tapes
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