Episode 60 - Thad Cockrell - What If - Worktapes

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to work Tapes. This is a podcast where we
tear up our songs. Why was the song written, what's
it about, what's the context and emotion behind it? Where
were you at the time, what were you going through?
How did certain lines come to you? What's the inspiration?
How long did it take to write? I'm Brandon Carswell
and I'm fascinated with songwriting and how songs are built

(00:29):
from the ground up. It's easy to hear a full
production song on the radio and dismiss its origin story.
I want to hear the rough draft of the song
or the work tape. I want to explore the very
beginning of how songs that move us and make us
move our born.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Nina nine and none and none no no no no
no no no no no Nina Nina none.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
No no, nine no no no none.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
What is I told you something I'm thinking? Something I
couldn't say?

Speaker 3 (01:37):
And what is showed you? How I am feeling? Feeling?

Speaker 4 (01:46):
The won't go away?

Speaker 3 (01:51):
And what is the right word? Come out the wrong
way but the wrong way. It's the best that I've god.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
What if the Foremon letter up the Mountains week Club?
What did the skyes opened up in the soung Shin
and all the pain we've ever known is the road.

Speaker 5 (02:24):
That let us home to us like you got from
a book.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Work Tapes.
I'm Brandon Carswell. Today we have on a special guest,
in my opinion, a good good friend of mine over
the years. Uh, fantastic songwriter, singer, artist, band member. Goodness,

(02:54):
I could say a billion things about you.

Speaker 5 (02:55):
But thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Welcome, Thad Cock. Likewise, good to be here, Thanks for coming.

Speaker 6 (02:59):
Yeah, man, Well, you know, hell of an artist in
a in a musician yourself, So it's always good to
sit at the table and have a conversation.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Well, I appreciate it. Oh my gosh. Well, I feel
like so many times on this show at least I
get to just hang out with my friends because you know,
just being in Nashville and we have some history with
North Carolina as well, which takes it a little bit
of a step further down the road for us and
mutual friends and all this stuff, and so it's it's

(03:30):
a real treat for me to hang out with you again.
It's been a long time too. And on this episode,
what we're going to do as usual is We're going
to kind of talk, hang out. We'll listen to a
work tape of one of bad songs kind of mid episode,

(03:51):
and that's pretty much it. It's going to be a
good time. Just to start off, I would like you
to you for those listening that don't know who you are,
let's just take it on back. Who are you? Where
did you come from? Why? And how? Let's just start

(04:11):
with the why. Why did you start in music? Songwriting? Uh?

Speaker 5 (04:16):
You know it's really interesting.

Speaker 6 (04:18):
I uh well, I am the son of Alan and
Janie Cockerell. I was born in Kansas City, Missouri. Uh,
my dad was a pastor. Grew up in church, no
secular music, you know, the only thing that was pretty
much framed for me as a possible existence on this

(04:42):
earth and the highest calling of all callings and everything
else you do besides that as a as a sheer
cliff you know, uh down to you know, being a
sheer mortal if you're not in full time ministry meaning
like pastor or music rector or whatever. Uh you know,
but that was basically the thing that was framed for me.

(05:05):
And uh, you know I grew up in Kansas City. Uh,
how why do I why did I start? You know,
I remember from an early age, I was maybe five
or six, had no context for this thought coming into
my mind. It'd be like running through the desert and
getting hit upside the head with an ice cream cone.

(05:27):
You know, like you're like, where does that come from?
Because I, you know, I didn't grow up in a
music loving but it was nice. It was nice. I
love ice cream and uh. But you know, I it's
not like I had, you know, my parents were playing
music in the house, you know, uh, And and I
was watching my dad preach, and I remember thinking, I

(05:48):
guess that's what I'll do. And this thought that came
into my head had to be planted from some something
much greater than me, and I believe it was.

Speaker 5 (05:55):
And it was.

Speaker 6 (05:56):
They'll take a song home and they'll listen to it
thousands of times, and they'll listen to a song before
they'll listen to a sermon. And I, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
Where did you Where did that idea come from?

Speaker 5 (06:11):
I I, you know, I would suspect you.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Don't like listening to sermons.

Speaker 6 (06:16):
The the great cosmic, yes, is the one that planted
the seed deep.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
In my heart.

Speaker 6 (06:23):
And I remember getting you know, suspended from school all
the time, kicked out three years in a row. It
was a small Christian school. They're easy to get kicked
out of. I mean it was my dad's school. I
was getting kicked out of my dad's school.

Speaker 5 (06:37):
Perfect but.

Speaker 6 (06:41):
Yeah, right, And anyways, I was doing it in school suspension.
And this guy that worked on my dad's staff there
was like that if nothing mattered, you know, time, money,
nothing mattered, what would you do? And my first thought,
I remember very clearly, was music. But the only kind

(07:01):
of music I thought you could do was to lead
the choir and you know, play this lame ass music
that I was hearing in the church. It wasn't necessarily
fun music, you know, And and so I was like, well,
I'm not going to do that. I didn't know what
the answer was, but I went home and I said,
let me think about it. You know, I knew it
wasn't important of enough of a question that I needed

(07:21):
to think about it. So I went home and I
I found Steve the next day. I'm like, I got
your answer, music, what is it? And I was like,
I guess I would help people. You know, if money, time, nothing,
I think I would just help people. And you know,
it's interesting because you know, I grew up a jock.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
I was.

Speaker 6 (07:39):
I was captain of the wrestling team, the football team,
and you know, I was a redneck, you know, grew
up in Tampa, Florida when we were the first nine
years in Kansas City, the second nine years in Tampa, Florida.
And so anyways, I went to college to wrestle and
the first person that I'd ever met, and I was
also completely upset with music growing up, like like totally.

(08:03):
I would stay up all night scrolling the radio dial
not stationed, and I remember thinking from a very young age,
I'm a song.

Speaker 5 (08:10):
Person, not a genre person.

Speaker 6 (08:12):
Okay, why you think that at a young age, I
don't know, but I just I just knew it, you know.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
And you were listening to the radio because you you
couldn't listen to secular music.

Speaker 6 (08:20):
Yeah, And I would stay up all night and I like,
secret secretly, yeah.

Speaker 5 (08:24):
And it was it was it was an apps. It
kept me alive.

Speaker 6 (08:28):
Really, in hindsight, I realized that that those songs and
those DJs, and they kept me alive really. Yeah, the
music was the one thing in my life that I
it gave me permission to feel whatever emotions it was
that I was feeling, you know. So you know, I
went to college. I wrestled in college, and my assistant

(08:49):
wrestling coach was the first person that I ever met
that wrote songs and sang them, and it blew my mind.
For some reason, I never equated it to real people,
you know, like I never thought that it was actually
I don't know how it ever, I you know, I
don't know. It was just such a dead end that

(09:11):
I never even like asked, you know, like who are
the people that are doing these things? You know, I
wasn't the person that was reading all the liner notes,
you know, I was just obsessed with the songs and anyways,
I asked him. I was like, Jeff, you know, Jeff Dernlin.
I was like, how do you write songs? And he
was like it was the greatest answer. And it pissed
me off at the time. I remember, you know, I

(09:33):
was like, how do you write songs? And he was like,
there's no right, right, or wrong way to do it?
And I'm like, I'm mad because I think he has
the cheat sheet and he's not let me look that answer.
Still yeah, but but you know, there's it's so true
and I said, when's the verse, when's the chorus? I
think there's a bridge, you know, And he's like, you
can do any of it in any way you want.

(09:53):
And and I remember somewhere around that same time he said,
I was leaving his room and and he said, you'd
like Neil Young.

Speaker 5 (10:03):
I'd never heard Neil Young. I didn't know who Neil
Young was. And I was like, huh.

Speaker 6 (10:08):
And a couple of weeks later, I'm laying on my
bed after wrestling practice, getting ice down, and I put
on the the earphones to listen to the local radio
station and they were like in the middle of like
an eight song block, and and I was, you know,
I was. I was listening and this song comes on
and it was my moment. It was I I completely

(10:32):
bald my eyes out. I remember thinking, that's what I'm
I've got to figure out how to make something that beautiful.
And I don't write, I don't play, I don't sing,
like I don't do anything. At this point, I'm in college,
and I knew it was Neil Young. I was like,
that's Neil Young. I knew it was Neil Young. And
and sure enough I waited for the DJ to to

(10:53):
give the backlog of what songs he played, and he's like,
and that's Neil Young's new song Harvest Moon, and you
know to that's long. It's a long way to get
to your answer. But why And it's because I'm trying
to make something beautiful. I want to make something beautiful.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
I love that. Yeah, yeah, I wanted to ask you because,
like you mentioned, your story is a little bit different.
I mean everyone's is different. But a lot of times,
as kids, a lot of the stories go like, oh
I saw so and so on TV or whatever, and
I wanted to be a star. Yeah, you know, I
wanted to.

Speaker 5 (11:28):
I saw this person play the guitar.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
That's not your story. And I like that. The story
is different in the regards like year after the song,
like the song was chasing you at the same time
you were finding it. But the overarching question for me
is starting later like you did.

Speaker 6 (11:51):
I did start playing music after college.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Right, and so a lot of kids will start will
have that dream like I mentioned in that vision, they'll
get going on some guitar or whatever they're going to do,
or singing and playing church or whatever. The story is,
what's the benefit of starting later, because we know the
benefits of starting young.

Speaker 6 (12:12):
You know what, I've thought about this a lot, and
that's a great question.

Speaker 5 (12:18):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 6 (12:23):
Sometimes I'm like, man, I wish I would have started earlier.
But there's so many other things that I learned from
playing sports that I needed for me in my journey,
my story.

Speaker 5 (12:37):
I needed. I needed to learn grit I needed.

Speaker 6 (12:41):
I think it's what a lot of I wish my
my musician friends had more of.

Speaker 5 (12:46):
Is Grit is defiance.

Speaker 6 (12:49):
Is is getting beat one play and getting up and saying, yeah,
I'll rewrite the story, give me, give me an give
me a minute.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
You know.

Speaker 6 (13:04):
Losing a wrestling match, you know, and you only have
yourself to blame, and you think.

Speaker 5 (13:11):
I didn't I.

Speaker 6 (13:13):
Didn't make up my mind that I was going to
win that match before I got on the on the
on the mat, and therefore.

Speaker 5 (13:20):
I didn't win.

Speaker 6 (13:22):
And uh, you know, I think that is the thing
that I am. I am eternally grateful for that starting
later in life, you know, gave me the opportunity to
do I learned. I learned social skills that a lot
of musicians musician friends don't always learn. I think I

(13:45):
think they hang out with I think we we can
hang out with each other and we communicate through music,
which is beautiful, you know, and uh, but I think
there's something else to learning to communicate just as a
human being person and there's no instrument in between, and
it's just hard to heart, you know, to eye.

Speaker 5 (14:06):
And I'm really grateful for that.

Speaker 6 (14:10):
And also, you know, it put me. You know, I
am not a don't I don't know theory. I don't
know much of anything, but I do know what I love.
And when you start late, the only thing you have
as your guide is what you love and what makes

(14:31):
you feel good. And you know, I started learning to
play the guitar, writing songs, playing out and recording all
at the same time, like I and people are like,
that's not true. I'm like, believe me. I was playing.
I was playing in this coffee shop for two hours.

(14:54):
I barely knew how to strum the guitar and sing
at the same time.

Speaker 5 (14:58):
I knew three and a half songs.

Speaker 6 (15:00):
And of course, once I played those three and a
half songs, I would just repeat the first verse twice
and when those people left, you know, I would take
a break, of course, a vocal break after that amount
of songs, and then when new people came in, I
would play the same songs. And I decided that I
wanted to start trying to write a song every week,

(15:22):
and then I did, and then I started recording within
months of that. And I remember driving to the studio
the first time, and I remember thinking, God.

Speaker 5 (15:33):
I hope I can get the chords right.

Speaker 6 (15:37):
And remember the songs. And it was a band and
they were amazing players. It was this band. You know
a lot of the players that were in this band
called Whiskey Town, you know, minus Ryan. And you know,
I just didn't instead of I didn't, I didn't keep
what I didn't know from stopping me on any level.

Speaker 5 (15:58):
And I think what happens with musicians.

Speaker 6 (16:02):
Is it is a lot of times we all think
that we've got to be to a certain place before
we start whatever it is that we begin. And since
I didn't know better, I just did it. I'm forever
grateful for that.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
What was the early process of writing, like for you,
were you banging your head against the wall trying to
get it right or or was it more of what
you just said, like I'm just gonna do what I hear.
If I like it, then I'll play it.

Speaker 5 (16:33):
Yeah, that was it? Man, Yeah, there was no. I didn't.
I didn't. I wasn't running it by anyone.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
What was your reference? Like what were you listening to?

Speaker 6 (16:42):
And you know what's interesting is that's a great question.
I remember my reference was. I remember thinking I want
to do it all, and this is I think A
really like the lack of encouragement, Like I wonder what
would have happened if I would have had the right
encouragement in my life, because I remember I was backing
out of my drivers out of my my I had

(17:03):
a family brown station wagon driving backing out of my
gravel driveway, and.

Speaker 5 (17:09):
I'm so in my head, I'm like, how do I?
How do I start this? You know, like where do I?
How do I start this thing? And I remember thinking.

Speaker 6 (17:18):
I wanted to do it all, but I didn't know
how to do it all. And then I was like,
I think I can wrap my mind around country music, right,
I'll start there, And so I did. I started doing
like old school country records, which I was obsessed with.

Speaker 5 (17:34):
And but I wonder.

Speaker 6 (17:37):
What it would have looked like if I would have
had somebody in my life that I would have been
processing that with and they would have said, hey, Thad,
it's not about what you can wrap your head around.
Art is about what you can't wrap your head around,
and what would it look like if you just started
the whole thing right now, like do all of it
right now. And in a lot of ways, that's why
I feel like The Kid, which is the album I

(17:58):
just released in the past year. A lot of ways,
it feels like the first album that I've actually made
as what I would have done from the very beginning.
And it sounds like the scroll of the radio dial.

Speaker 5 (18:11):
You know.

Speaker 6 (18:12):
There's everything on it. There's R and B, there's pop songs,
there's country songs, there's singer songs. There's like weird like
songs that would make you feel more like you're you know,
when I'm writing songs, I'm not referencing songs as I
wanted to sound like. I wanted to feel like I
was felt when I heard my favorite songs growing up

(18:32):
for the first time. So I was chasing that feeling,
you know. So it's like, whether that be Pink Floyd
or whatever it was, I was chasing the feeling of
hearing my favorite songs again for the first time.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
And that's hard to do for a record, Like I've
followed you long enough to know that you do. You've
done that over like your whole catalog so far, you know,
Like for example, I've seen you play like a folk
song and then turn around and cover Idiotech or whatever
by Radiohead. Yeah yeah, and it's like, wait a minute, yeah,

(19:03):
you went from here to hear like this is not
the same.

Speaker 6 (19:06):
No, But I think that's how we listen to music.
It's how I listen to music, And so that's why
I don't understand why we make records that I'm not
opposed to it, but I don't understand why we can't,
Like why do records need to be of a genre,
you know whatever.

Speaker 5 (19:21):
It's just songs, man, It's just songs, and let music
be what it is.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
I think nowadays maybe it's easier for that, at least
for people to swallow, like a record that's multi genre.
It's for singles and streaming.

Speaker 6 (19:35):
But I hear it more in like the urban space,
like hip hop, but it still doesn't go as hard
as I wish it did. Yeah, Like I would love
to hear a Tyler Creator, you know album where he's
doing what he does and then he's literally singing a
country song, sure, and then he's singing like an Al

(19:58):
Green R and B song because I know, Oh, that
dude loves all of it. Yeah, you know, I can
hear it. I can hear that he loves all of it.
So I don't know, you know, I I think I've
tried to make a career out of writing the songs
that I don't hear, making the music that I wish
belong that wasn't that isn't being made.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
You know, does it ever mess with you all the time?

Speaker 5 (20:21):
All the time? I always?

Speaker 6 (20:22):
I always, yes, I try to. I try to err
on the side of bravery, But.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, what's the what's the messing with? What? What is it?
Is it? Is it the This is not a prepared
question at all, But is it the like I need
to stay to industry standards, I need to not push
the envelope or what are people going to think of this?
Am I going to lose fans? All of those things?

Speaker 5 (20:54):
Yeah? All of it? Yeah, all of it.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
You know.

Speaker 6 (20:57):
I think even when I started leagues, what I would
tell my then self is, you know, like, like there's
a lot of people that love this album that I
made to be loved, but to be loved completely wrecked
my career. You know why, I kind of hate it.
I kind of hate the album. I mean, I get it,
I love it, sure, But I mean I was I was,
you know, a critic starling making like all country, you know,

(21:21):
like you know, I never understood all country, I.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Was, but for songs. It's a fantastic album.

Speaker 5 (21:27):
Thank you.

Speaker 6 (21:28):
And but you know I I I was making like
old school country records. And I got offered a dial
in two thousand and six on Sony to do a
country record, and I just realized they want the only
thing that country wanted back then was Honkey Dounk, but
Donkey Donk and big and rich, and that's cool for

(21:48):
them to make that music.

Speaker 5 (21:49):
You know.

Speaker 6 (21:50):
I believe that music was is very true to who
those those individuals are. But I couldn't do that if
I tried. And the American public, if anything, has in
a credible sniffer, and they can smell some bs, and
they would have smelled it, smelled it.

Speaker 5 (22:05):
All over me, you know. And so I was poor.

Speaker 6 (22:08):
I needed the money and I remember talking telling the
A and R guy, I hate to say no to this,
but I have to. And once I said that, I
was like, Okay, well, what else are we going to do?

Speaker 5 (22:22):
And then I so I.

Speaker 6 (22:23):
Made to be loved and and you know, that connected
with people in a way that music that I had
made previously had never connected.

Speaker 5 (22:33):
But the people that loved all my country records, they
hated it.

Speaker 6 (22:37):
They did not get it at all. They wanted me
to keep making that and then after to be loved.
The songs that came to me were not.

Speaker 5 (22:46):
To be loved.

Speaker 6 (22:46):
It was it was Leagues, you know, And and I
was like, there's no way they're going to understand. So
I went under a band name called Leagues. My nouself
would be like, no, you're not going under a band name.

Speaker 5 (23:02):
That's you. It's all you.

Speaker 6 (23:04):
You know, You're not gonna hide, you know. And but
I learned a lot. I learned a lot from from
from doing that, and I'm I'm really grateful for it.
But yeah, I've been on this long journey of making
lots of different kinds of music, and you know, now,
I don't now, I don't now, I don't think. I
don't even I don't even think about others.

Speaker 5 (23:26):
When I'm doing it. It's just it's just between I'm
just chasing my own joy.

Speaker 6 (23:29):
Yeah, and and uh and asking asking uh that I
keep getting sent great songs, which is what I've prayed
for from the very beginning. I'm like, please send me
great songs and and and and and let let the

(23:53):
mediocre ones just.

Speaker 5 (23:54):
Float on by, like you know.

Speaker 6 (23:56):
Yeah, so you know that's kind of been the the
journey in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
Well, let's talk about that journey. Yeah, because it's been
up and down kind of all around for you. Oh yeah,
it's been moments of are you going to keep doing it?
Are you not?

Speaker 5 (24:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (24:17):
I'm like we discussed it a little bit earlier, like you, Yeah,
messes with you.

Speaker 6 (24:21):
Yeah, And if you're looking at other people's success, in
your friend's success, whatever success is as you define it,
you know.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Which, living in this town is hard. It's hard not
to see you because you know, when you're when you're
in a pickle or you're in a moment or whatever.

Speaker 6 (24:41):
Well you're in a season of winter and your friends
are in a season of harvest. It's really hard for
you to be okay with everything looking barren and dead.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
And it's really hard not to see everything else blooming.
Oh and then yeah, it's it's a mess. In your mind,
definitely is, but you have a history of coming out
of those things coming back. I want you to talk
about the Jimmy Fallon thing. Yeah, for people that don't know,

(25:15):
I was so excited when I saw that happen. It
was just like one of those underdog stories that we need.
We definitely needed at the time, and you needed at
the time personally, Yeah, for sure. And it was just like,
I'll let you tell the story because I don't want
to botch it up. But what happened with that.

Speaker 6 (25:37):
Well, you know, I think there's so many incredible things
that happened with it that that would would take a
long time to explain. But uh, you know, I made
this album in uh it called if in case you
feel the same, with a dream team of I got

(26:00):
to make it with the guy that produced produced it.
I'm gonna produce some of the songs with him. But
his name was Tony Berg, and he's just an absolute
incredible human being. And what I learned from him I'm
forever grateful for. And I you know, Blake Mills played

(26:21):
on it and Chris Dave was playing drums. It was
if you would have told me in twenty sixteen, the
people that I was going to be making my next
record with.

Speaker 5 (26:29):
I wouldn't I wouldn't have. I would have been like
and and how is that going to happen?

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (26:37):
But you know it started I was I was making
these demos, you know, or I was, you know, making
recordings to the best that I could.

Speaker 5 (26:45):
I hate to even call it demos.

Speaker 6 (26:46):
And and serendipitously, Brittany Howard showed up at my house
one evening and I played these songs for and she,
you know, flipped out. She like, I don't like anything.
This stuff is amazing. What are you doing with it?
And one thing LEDs to another, and I'm all of
a sudden, I'm working with her manager and my my

(27:08):
late and her her label which is Ato, which is
an amazing label, and and so you know, uh, the
song comes out in the middle of the pandemic. Nothing
was happening with it, right, I didn't even have a publicist,

(27:30):
and uh and you know, at that point, I'm like, well,
you know, I think I've done everything I can do here.
I don't you know, like you know, I don't know,
I've had that. I've got this killer team around me.
And if nothing's going to happen from this, you know,
maybe it's time to just move on. And and I

(27:50):
was really, I was really okay with it. And you know,
I have my master's and family therapy, so I was like,
maybe I'll start doing some therapy and and it just
just about literally I sent a letter to my to
my manager one morning and I just said, hey, here's
the things of what I want to try to do
this year, and if you don't think that we can

(28:11):
do them, you know, let me know. And and he
called me within fifteen minutes, and I was like, Hey,
this isn't about the letter. We got a phone call
from the Tonight Show. Jimmy Fallon heard your song in
a heart you know, well he didn't know, we didn't know.
Then he's like, you heard your song and it's been
his anthem through this whole crazy pandemic. And uh, and

(28:32):
you know you're going to You're going to be the
first artist to play the Tonight's Show and the Roots
are going to be your band.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
It's wild.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Did you hang out like you're not?

Speaker 5 (28:48):
You're just yeah, it's hard. It's hard.

Speaker 6 (28:50):
It's really hard to explain getting a phone call like
that because I know all the things that need to
happen in order to even get to play on the
Tonight Show. You know, you need to have publicist, you
need to have that momentum. Like we I didn't have anything,
but I did and I had God, and I'll take

(29:13):
that over momentum. God doesn't need momentum, and he doesn't
need a publicist. He doesn't need anything really, And I
think more than anything needs like willingness and bravery, and
you know, I think he's really down where she is

(29:34):
really down with that, you know. And and so anyways,
I was yeah. When he told me this, I thought like,
there's so, who's going to I need to rehearse a
band And he's like, no, the Roots are going to
be your band.

Speaker 5 (29:50):
So anyways, I.

Speaker 6 (29:53):
Got booked to do that on January second, to play
on January twenty sixth, and somewhere around the fifteenth I
got dropped by my label. I was dropped by my
label before.

Speaker 5 (30:04):
I ever actually played the Tonight Show.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
I didn't know that part.

Speaker 5 (30:07):
Well, nobody does. So I'm giving you the yeah, And
I don't know what. I don't want to say. It's
a the quote.

Speaker 6 (30:16):
All I said was I just told my lawyer, Hey,
if they're not going to do something. I knew something
special was going to happen. I just knew it.

Speaker 5 (30:23):
I was like, oh, okay, it's go time.

Speaker 6 (30:26):
And uh and so anyways, I told my my lawyer,
I said, you know, hey, tell them if they're not
going to do anything with with this album, just to
let me go, like let me let me you know.
And they're like, oh yeah, you know, we want to
give that the opportunity to spread his wings and fly
said no, dude to a girl that he actually liked,
you know. So anyways, Uh, I ended up playing the

(30:52):
tonight show. I had a false positive the day of
of of the recording, and that's why I wasn't in
the studio.

Speaker 5 (31:04):
And he never told anyone.

Speaker 6 (31:05):
I never told anyone, but we had a false positive
the day of like I'm literally you know, I met
him so frustrating, oh man, and you know they I
went the day before and we took you know, my
my buddy Riley and I had to take a test
to even get on the plane. Came back negative. The
day before we went up to thirty Rock. I met

(31:27):
Jimmy at the elevator. Beautiful, small conversation that really stunning
and if you. I was like, if I thought I
liked this guy, then my god, I love him so
much more now. And that test came back negative and
they're like, well tomorrow it's going to be really fast.
You're going to do another rapid test. And so anyways,

(31:49):
I go up there and we take the test and
they were like it's going to take only ten minutes.
And we're twenty five minutes in and I looked at
my buddy Ryley and like, dude, what if this is
of what if one of the have a positive? He's like, no,
we both had COVID in the last six weeks. We've
been self you know, you know, what do you call

(32:10):
it when you're away from everyone quarantined? And you know,
we just took too negative. Well, sure enough they came
and got me, and they, you know, like, hey, Tha,
can you come with me?

Speaker 5 (32:21):
And I was like, something doesn't feel right about this.

Speaker 6 (32:24):
And I go in this room by myself and I
just know, and the phone rings and it's this lady
and she's like, hi that I'm so sorry about the confusion.
I'm like, what's the confusion. She's like, well, I don't
know if I'm supposed to tell you or not. I'm
just I work with human you know, resources. But your
test came back positive. And I got off the phone

(32:47):
and I just started laughing my ass off because I'm like, man,
this is this is like a Bill Murray movie, and
if we were watching this, we would all we would
all laugh, you know. And I was like, did I
really think I was just gonna come up here and
see if I'm going to go down swinging, you know,
or if I'm going to go down I'm going to
go down swinging.

Speaker 5 (33:05):
Like this is part of this is part of the story.

Speaker 6 (33:07):
And then I just kind of made up in my mind.
I'm like, I don't know what it looks like. This
is the best thing that's ever happened to me. And
although I can't imagine it, I just believe that I'm getting.

Speaker 5 (33:18):
The upgrades somehow, you know. And so we ended up
doing the show.

Speaker 6 (33:23):
You know, it was off for about two hours, and
then they the producer called back and said, Hey, we're
going to have you. We're recording it now with the roots,
and we're going to have you do it from your
from the hotel room.

Speaker 5 (33:35):
So we filmed the whole.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
And somebody had to come back because it was you
said it was off for two hours, so somebody had
to say, no, we're going to do it anyway.

Speaker 6 (33:44):
Right, Well, Jimmy was really distraught. The lady called me
back and said, Hey, just so you know, Jimmy's distraught
because by then it had kind of gone viral like
lots of.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
People because he had he had prefaced it the night before.

Speaker 6 (33:56):
Oh no, he didn't preface it the night just the
night before I played on A two. I've never seen
a late night host do this with anyone. He went
on the Friday before I played, and he took four
minutes and he stopped the whole show, and he told
the roots about the story of hearing my album in
a hardware store and him she zaming it and then

(34:16):
he's playing air guitar while the chorus hits and I'm
watching this and I'm like, what is going on here?

Speaker 5 (34:27):
You know?

Speaker 6 (34:27):
And then he talked about it that Monday, and then
the whole He basically made the whole episode about the
song swinging, and then I you know, we did we
did the song, and then two days later to two
days later, I did a nine minute interview on The
Today Show and the song goes number one in the

(34:48):
world and number two albums in the world on Apple
where people were buying it.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
And the record and your words was basically dead.

Speaker 6 (34:56):
No, not basically it was dead like dead yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Like.

Speaker 5 (35:03):
And and uh.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
And it's a fantastic record. It's it's so good and
I can't I understand like and you know logically how
records don't come up, But.

Speaker 6 (35:17):
Man, I believe in that record a lot. It's really special.
And everyone, Oh yeah, I'm crazy about that album.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
And and all I Want is my favorite song.

Speaker 6 (35:28):
Oh really, Yeah, I just re recorded it for the
country record I made it.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
It's like a Springsteen kind of thing to me, like
a rock rock and roll you know. So you know.

Speaker 6 (35:42):
I what what's interesting, though, is is as interesting as
that is, it's not the most interesting part of the
story because what came from it was nothing like I
you know, I got dropped by my label and and
you know, parted ways with my manager and within three
and they did nothing with it, Like, couldn't have done

(36:05):
less with it. They did the bare minimal, you know
that they had to, just because it would have been
really it would have looked really bad, you know, So
they went back to radio. But they didn't go, they
didn't do anything. There was nothing, and man, it was
disheartening beyond it's hard to describe to have that kind

(36:27):
of and I and I didn't make a penny from it,
And it's hard to describe how how to go from
that high of a high in that fast to go
back to having absolutely nothing and you literally are a
month out from having all of that.

Speaker 5 (36:49):
Yeah it's tough, of course, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
But for two things. And then we'll move on from
this part. But I want to know, before that happened,
were you about to give it up? Yeah, entirely, like
as a job, you were going to move on?

Speaker 5 (37:08):
Yeah, yeah, I had, I had.

Speaker 6 (37:10):
I you know, I think if anybody does this long enough,
they're like, I quit and they don't really quit, you know.

Speaker 5 (37:16):
What I mean.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
Yeah, you can't not write.

Speaker 6 (37:17):
But yeah, but this time when I said I'm done,
like I was done, you know. And you know, one
of the things that this goes back to one of
your earlier questions is is.

Speaker 5 (37:31):
When everything didn't happen.

Speaker 6 (37:35):
I I was just like, now it's the opportunity.

Speaker 5 (37:43):
It's go time.

Speaker 6 (37:44):
Whether everybody or nobody believes it, it's go time.

Speaker 5 (37:49):
And so I.

Speaker 6 (37:52):
Dug in and instead of making an angry sounding out album.
And I and I'd lost my my dad had cancer
at the time, and we knew we didn't have much longer.
But I dug in and I said, man, I'm going
to make the most beautiful I'm going to make the
album my dreams and I want to alchemize my pain
into something beautiful.

Speaker 5 (38:14):
And I ended up making The Kid, and it's the greatest.

Speaker 6 (38:18):
It's the most fun thing I've ever done in my life.
When I got finished with it, the day that we
got the Master's back, I did something I'd never done
to any album, but I wrote a thank you letter
to the music and just thanked it for.

Speaker 5 (38:42):
Changing my life.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Helped of course.

Speaker 5 (38:51):
So once again, music is this thing that like.

Speaker 6 (39:02):
Get me kept me alive, you know. I mean I
wouldn't have died. I wouldn't have died if I hadn't
have made the Kid. But it was so life giving.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
You know, there's other ways to die than to die. Yeah,
you know, yeah, music, music does that. And part of
the second thing I wanted to mention about that story
is you said, after all of that, I still didn't
come away with you know what people may think you

(39:34):
came away yeah, money or whatever. Yeah, but what you
did come away with is you We got to see
and you got to see it more than us. We
saw a person and Jimmy Fallon, Yeah, who connected with
a piece of music so much, Yes that he had

(39:56):
to fight for you to be on. Oh yeah, and
that is incredible to me. Yeah, well woven forget who
he is in his platform.

Speaker 6 (40:06):
Well, people don't everything everything makes sense in hindsight, right,
But but I tell you how incredible this dude is.
Of course, you know the Roots no hum hm, they
were on their way to extinction, Like the Roots weren't right,

(40:27):
I'm a massive fan, don't get me sack. Yeah, but
they were on their way out to pasture. No one,
no one was thinking who is going to to have
a massive impact in the culture of music. No one
would have picked the Roots. Sure, but Jimmy, And that

(40:49):
is such a brave, incredible move. It's it's actually it's
actually like really punk rock of him.

Speaker 5 (40:57):
Now. I bet he was just like, what do you mean?

Speaker 3 (40:59):
Who you?

Speaker 5 (40:59):
Who do you not want?

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (41:02):
Sure, but but any there's nobody else that would have
picked the Roots?

Speaker 5 (41:09):
What a what a what a move? You know?

Speaker 6 (41:13):
And you know, really I I the day after I
played you know, when I met Jimmy, he said something
else that was really incredible.

Speaker 5 (41:21):
He said, you know, I hate that.

Speaker 6 (41:22):
He was like, I'm standing at the elevator and I
hear my name and I looked at my buddy Riley.
He's like that that and I turn around and it's
Jimmy and he has his mask on. We both immediately
get emotional and and he's like, he's like, man, he
was like, my wife and I we love your music
and this song and this story is just helping so

(41:42):
many people out. And I'm like, Jimmy, I don't think
you have any idea, man, thank you so much. Well,
I left that it was about that long. He's like,
I'll see you tomorrow. It's gonna be great. His elevator dings.
They wouldn't even let us on the same elevator.

Speaker 5 (41:53):
He goes up, and.

Speaker 6 (41:54):
I remember thinking after I was going back to the
hotel after doing the the rapid test, I remember thinking,
it's my experience that ninety nine percent of the people
that I meet would have said the word I I
like your music, and it was my wife and I
I'm like this dude's he's a we guy. He's a team,

(42:16):
you know, and I love I love we people, man.
And at some point you got to get over yourself
and and and and create something really special with with people,
and you know, and and and from that, you know,
I did. I did three interviews with him, Rolling Stone
People and the American Songwriter, and they would talk to

(42:37):
him first and then they would call me, and I
think all of them said the same thing. Definitely, one
of them said, hey, Jimmy says, you don't need to
to dedicate an album, but he does want a song.

Speaker 5 (42:51):
And so I was like, oh.

Speaker 7 (42:53):
All right, he's he's he's picked the right dude, and
I got to write him a banger.

Speaker 6 (42:58):
So I ended up thinking about that, and I did
some research on he and his wife and they told
their whole story, and at one point, he says, you know,
I remember what you were wearing the first time I
ever met you. And she's like, no way, and he's like, yeah, yeah,
this white pet you know, white pants and this pink
sweater and this green bag. And she's like, oh my god,
that green bag. That's exactly what I was wearing. So anyways,

(43:19):
I ended up writing a song. It's their prom song.
I acted like I was hiring.

Speaker 5 (43:23):
The the the the Huey Lewis.

Speaker 6 (43:26):
And the news from the eighties to produce their song,
because that's so his vibe. But it's on the kid.
It's called right Place, at the Right Time, and it's
their song. And it was given to them. Think on
Valentine's Day this past year by a mutual friend. They
got their love song from a mutual friend played it
for them on Valentine's Day.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
It's awesome.

Speaker 6 (43:47):
Yeah, it's really it's really really cool. I love that dude.

Speaker 8 (43:51):
Man.

Speaker 6 (43:51):
I wouldn't have been able to make the kid without
without without him, man.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Yeah. And my whole point in saying that at.

Speaker 5 (43:57):
All, well and his wife Nancy.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah, as that the validation you got to keep going. Yeah,
if that's all you got, that's enough.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Well.

Speaker 6 (44:09):
You know what's also really wild is shortly after I
lost my dad, but after that happened, this is the
greatest skift he gave me is after that happened, my
dad never talked to me the same again.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Interesting, Wow, like you were like you were being prepared.

Speaker 6 (44:27):
Yeah, yeah, but my dad, my dad the tone he
just I it. My dad respected me in a way.

Speaker 5 (44:36):
He had always what I mean, he had.

Speaker 6 (44:37):
Always thought that I was on a fool's errand sure,
you know, when's he going to stop?

Speaker 5 (44:46):
I felt it every time. Yeah, I felt it every.

Speaker 6 (44:48):
Time I interacted with my dad as an adult, and
after that.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Never Man, Wow, that's intense. It's intense as a creative.
I mean, I think if a million creators are listening
to this, all of us will resonate with that. Sure,
you know, yeah, like when is when? When are you
taking seriously? Yeah, when are you going to get a

(45:16):
real job?

Speaker 8 (45:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (45:17):
You know, yeah, Yeah, it's horrible.

Speaker 6 (45:20):
Yeah, you know, And I think, you know, I think
about this is one of the things that that's the
reason why I released the album the way I did,
and it's I'm creating a platform.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
You know.

Speaker 6 (45:28):
One of the things that I would like to do
in my lifetime is leave the business of music. I
don't know about the music business, which is all built
on an extraction, but I want to add I don't
want to extract, and I want to create an economy
around the business of music. And I'm doing that and

(45:49):
and you know, I want to change the narrative. And
it's a it's a horrible narrative of starving artist. And
you know, if if a kid goes to his parents
and says, you know, going to become a heart surgeon,
the parent will think this is going to be very hard.
You're going to have to study, but thank god, he's going.

Speaker 7 (46:08):
To have money exactly, but he's going to be rich,
you know, or he's gonna he's gonna do okay, and
you know, to whereas you take the exact same kid
and he goes to his mom and dad and he says, hey,
mom and dad, I'm going to play drums for a living.

Speaker 6 (46:23):
Oh, you're going to be a starving artist. And it's
not a real job and everything. But here's the deal man.
Have you ever had your heart healed by a heart surgeon?

Speaker 1 (46:31):
Yeah? You neither have I by a drummer.

Speaker 5 (46:39):
But yeah, but have you buy a song?

Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (46:41):
Millions of times. Yeah, let's change that. It's ridiculous. You know,
I want to create a whole new economy around music.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Let's talk about that, because you're shaking things up with
how you're releasing or have released this record. Yeah, we're
going to talk about a song called what if. Let's
go ahead, listen to the work tape of what if?
H this is just you and your piano, uh super
stripped back and then we'll kind of talk about what
if and then what you're doing with the whole record?

(47:11):
Is that cool? I love it cool?

Speaker 9 (47:20):
No no, no, no, no no no.

Speaker 10 (47:29):
What is dot?

Speaker 2 (47:33):
Something?

Speaker 3 (47:34):
I think? Something I couldn't say.

Speaker 5 (47:44):
What showed you how.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Feelings? Feelings? The walk way?

Speaker 9 (47:59):
What the robband come out the wrong way?

Speaker 3 (48:06):
But the wrong ways? The best that I got? What
is the former?

Speaker 11 (48:16):
Let up the mountains we climb wooded.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
The skies opened.

Speaker 11 (48:24):
Up and the sun just shine and all the pain
we've ever known? Is the role that let us.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
Home to us? That I get guiding.

Speaker 5 (48:40):
Hand from above? And what is we follow the loving
our heart word is It's such a great place distorted.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
I'm not not not be exactly everything that.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
You had and your mind.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Walk get you.

Speaker 9 (49:34):
The o world stopped even time you spise revelation. I
got no hesitation you always being the beautiful. I think

(49:59):
you're better than luck.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
What is the from the bus we come? Where is
the schools? And the snoot just shine in the hall? Pain?
We better know it's the moon, But that is home

(50:25):
to us, that guiding it from the book What Have
We Father? Love it? Our house.

Speaker 8 (50:40):
Worthy such a great place to start.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Okay, I I love this song. I was. I'm a
geek about the work tapes. I always have been since
I can remember. Uh So, getting to hear like the
production version on a record and then a being with

(52:00):
just your you and your piano is so much fun
for me to listen to. I think I think a
lot of fans probably would like it.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
Right, And is this work tape just you at home?

Speaker 6 (52:15):
Just me at home on the piano that I wrote
that song?

Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yeah? Yeah? Is that where you do a lot of writing?

Speaker 5 (52:20):
It's where I do.

Speaker 6 (52:25):
Yes, It's where I would prob I do pretty much
one hundred percent of my writing. Yeah, and at my
home on the piano, or on the guitar, or or no,
no instrument at all.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (52:38):
For about six years I didn't write songs on any
instrument my entire time I was in leagues, I didn't
write it. I didn't write a song for six years
on an instrumental.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
I remember being at breakfast with you once and you
were clearly not paying attention to anything we were saying,
and I was like, what's up with this, dude? And
you're like, I'm sorry, I've got a song in my
head and just start writing it down. This is early on,
so I was like, now, I know that is always writing.

(53:10):
It was great, it was brilliant. I want to be
like that.

Speaker 6 (53:14):
But thank you for being gracious. Thank you for being gracious.
I have since done a lot of work in therapy
around what it looks like for me to be present
with I.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Thought it was cool. I was just thinking, man, I
wish songs downloaded like that for me while I'm sitting
there eating pancakes or whatever.

Speaker 5 (53:34):
That Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Anyway, what if?

Speaker 6 (53:42):
What if I have so many friends that have told
me the same story, and I'm like, y'all, thank you
for putting up with me. But I also know that
my friends wouldn't want me to not know write it down,
you know, of course, but I but it's not missed
on me, the kindness and and grace that they extend
to me.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Could you imagine if you were like all you did
was that you were like a painter and you had
to hold on guys, I gotta go.

Speaker 6 (54:09):
Oh, man, I I you know, I you know someday
I'll get married, and I just I apologies to my
wife beforehand, you know, like, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Yeah, but when it's happening, you got to get it out.
You're lose it.

Speaker 5 (54:30):
Yeah, I've just never I made a deal, man, I
just made a deal.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
I can't lose it if it, if.

Speaker 5 (54:37):
It comes to me, I write it.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (54:38):
And you know, my first my first producer told me
something I'm forever grateful for and he gave me permission
to do that. He said that he was like, listen, man,
if you end up thirty minutes late to a party
whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
Isn't that always when the song hits by.

Speaker 6 (54:56):
Yes or whatever it is, just keep doing We're all
waiting for the next We're all waiting for you to
give us the next song. So don't don't don't be
so pragmatic. Just go with the flow. And man, christ Amy,
thank you from the bottom of my heart for giving
me the license because I grew up in a home

(55:18):
where you know that would not be said. You know,
you put other people first all the time, you know, Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
This song what if? Is a wonderful song.

Speaker 5 (55:31):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
It doesn't, I mean, the title kind of tells you
what it's about.

Speaker 5 (55:38):
But also not really.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Yeah, but it's kind of like a hopeful what if,
isn't it?

Speaker 5 (55:45):
Oh it's insane, Yeah, man, it's.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
It's was Was this like a personal what if? Or
was this? I guess My question is is this music?
Is this song about your music journey? Is this song?
Because I could listen to it a few different ways.
This could be a song where God is talking to
you the listener. This could be a song where you

(56:09):
literally wrote it about your journey or wrote it about
a person.

Speaker 6 (56:14):
Yes to all the above, to all the above. And
it's why it's the first song on the album. You know,
if you go back to this story I was telling you,
you know, I was really heartbroken by what didn't come
from it, but I believed in my heart and still
do that. No, it's just the setup for the big

(56:34):
This is just the jab before the hook man, and
you know, to write a song full of that much hope,
you know in what looks like hopelessness and then the
loss of my dad.

Speaker 5 (56:49):
You know.

Speaker 6 (56:49):
In two thousand, when I was in LA I started
writing screenplays and so a dear friend of mine, Don
had a book that was turned into a movie, and
he was like, dude, I'm going to send you the
best two books I've ever read on screenplay and I
was reading one of the chapters and it was on premise,
the chapter on premise and eighteen. I read this sentence

(57:11):
and it knocked me off my literally. I was just like, wow,
that's so incredible. And I kind of always lived my
life that way, but it never quite put it in
such a sixtinct idea or thought. But the chapter on premise,
there was a sentence and it said, the premise to
every great story begins with what if? And I wrote

(57:35):
it down on my journal and I thought about it
and thought about it and I thought about it. And
when the first song that I wrote when I moved
into my home, the first home that I had ever
bought in twenty twenty one, my parents, you know, now
this is cool. They gave me a household me gift,

(57:56):
and it was a piano. And the first song that
I wrote on that piano was what If.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Yeah. Oh that's cool.

Speaker 5 (58:01):
Yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 5 (58:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
Did you use that piano on the record.

Speaker 6 (58:10):
Yes, And I had and I had, you know, a
different piano that was in a nicer studio, and I
was just like, man, this just doesn't feel good. And
so I brought my guy that was helping me make
this record, an engineer, and he had a little mobile
recording thing, and and.

Speaker 5 (58:31):
I played it on the piano.

Speaker 6 (58:32):
And as soon as I played it on the piano,
the exact same thing, the whole recording opened up like
it was wild. I'd never heard anything give that much
life to a recording. Was just the sound of that
piano in that room. But that piano in that room
is the sound is why I wrote that song. There's

(58:55):
a there's a vibe in this room that's wild, and
there's a there's a natural not much it's not much
reverb at all, but there's a liveness to the room
that makes you want to play it. And anyways, yeah,
space is so important for all of that.

Speaker 5 (59:16):
Yes, yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Yeah, and the feel of an instrument. We're just talking
about that before we started recording. You can pick up
any old guitar, but they all have a different.

Speaker 6 (59:28):
I'd never Tony Bird did something to me or did
something with.

Speaker 5 (59:32):
Me that blew my mind.

Speaker 6 (59:34):
I he's so genius, but you know, we're we're I
think it was hell. It was swinging, It was swinging,
and we had the acoustic and we had this one
acoustic on it and it just didn't sound good. And
he was like, it's not the right guitar. Now we
had an acoustic on there, and he's like, it's not
the right guitar.

Speaker 5 (59:53):
It needs Brazilian rosewood.

Speaker 6 (59:55):
He's like, let me get my and he had a
guitar with Brazilian It was ban Brazilian Roa put on
it and and I played the exact same thing.

Speaker 5 (01:00:06):
And different song, different song. Man like yeah, and he
was like yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:00:12):
He's like, there's you know the woods, there's guitars in
those woods. Actually they're different for a reason, and I'd
never really thought that that was true.

Speaker 5 (01:00:22):
I was like, wait a minute, guitar is a guitar. No, no, no, no.

Speaker 6 (01:00:27):
They speak very differently, they sit and mixes very differently,
they write differently completely, you know, like even this LG one.

Speaker 5 (01:00:35):
As soon as I picked it up, you know there's
Gibson LG one.

Speaker 6 (01:00:37):
I picked it up and I played it, and I
immediately wanted to play it a certain way.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
You know, you start writing something you haven't even.

Speaker 5 (01:00:46):
Yes, yeah, it's just starts happening.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
That's beautiful. I love when that happens. My favorite lyric
and what if is what if the right words come
out the wrong way, but the wrong way is the
best that I got. That's such a resonating line for
me because that happens to me all the time. Yeah,

(01:01:10):
I could say the right thing the wrong way, which
is why I started a podcast so I can get
in front of everyone. Yeah, but seriously, that line just
like nailed me to the wall. Do you have a
favorite line in this song or do you go? Do
you go far enough down your own songs to have
favorite lines?

Speaker 5 (01:01:29):
Wow?

Speaker 6 (01:01:29):
A favorite line? It's it's actually what I wanted to
name the song. But my buddy, who's my my my
uh he he he where he I go full in artist.
He's like and he's my creative director. And he's a

(01:01:51):
weird he's a weirdo too. Uh and he's an artist,
you know, but he he is my If there's anyone
and that I let give me rain, you know, put
reins on me and be like, hey, won't you you know,
maybe not like let's go hard in the payment. Maybe
not the hard pain. I wanted to name the song,
I think You're.

Speaker 5 (01:02:11):
Better than luck.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Okay, that's a great line. Yeah to me, that's my Yeah.
The first my first pass through this song, I thought
it was love and then I heard the c K
on it and I was like, oh, oh that's better.
That's a better Oh oh it's way better.

Speaker 6 (01:02:30):
It's it's and I still think, like, I still think
maybe it should have been because what if everyone's gonna know.
You know, what I like about naming it that that
one lyric is it will be something that won't be missed.

Speaker 5 (01:02:42):
Now, it's like that's you know, so like.

Speaker 6 (01:02:45):
On this new on the new version of All I
Want that I recorded for the for the country record
that I just made called The Kid Goes Country, and
I made it as a thank you gift to everyone
that bought the Kid, right, Okay, And and I'm not.

Speaker 5 (01:03:01):
Gonna name it All I Want.

Speaker 6 (01:03:03):
I'm gonna name it my favorite line out of that
it's going to be called busted lip.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Yeah, that's a great line in that song too, totally unexpected.
There's one thing that I love about your writing and
your vocals is the same thing is that something always
is surprising. There's always like a surprising lyric or a
surprising melody. I remember one of the first times I

(01:03:28):
saw you sing was at church and Raleigh, Oh yeah,
and you were singing. You weren't even leading the song,
but you were up there singing and doing melodies or harmonies.
And I remember just being like, man, even those harmonies
are different, like you're not gonna You're never gonna go
straight straight down. That is always like nope, going over here.

(01:03:53):
And it's just enough of a surprise and just unique
enough to kind of like make your ear prick a
little and a good way and anyway.

Speaker 5 (01:04:02):
Thank you.

Speaker 6 (01:04:02):
Yeah, well, you know I do, I actually want I'm
intentional about that.

Speaker 8 (01:04:06):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:04:07):
It's like, you know, I have some younger artists that
I meantor and I said, you know, the job of
an artist is not to say like everyone else. Sure,
the job is to say something that everyone else is
thinking in a way that they hadn't said it. So
I'm not saying anything new, I believe me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
I'm not.

Speaker 5 (01:04:24):
There's nothing new. You know, you can call my lyrics.
I'm not Dylan. I am not. There's really nothing new.

Speaker 6 (01:04:31):
But I do want to try to say it in
a in a way that only I could say that,
And to me, that's the greatest gift that I could.
I feel like I'm not robbing the bank. I'm not
just it's I'm not just taking. I'm like giving something back.
But yeah, you know, go back to your I think,
I think, I think you're better than luck, and I
think you're better than luck. I mean to be lucky

(01:04:53):
is you know, they say it's better to be lucky
than anything. And to say you're you're better than luck
to me, I don't know what a what a thing
to have said.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
You know, it's a good line. It's a good line,
it's a good pickup line.

Speaker 10 (01:05:10):
It is it might be you know, maybe my bomb
to the to the to the right woman though she's like,
oh yeah, I get olive yourself hit me with that stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
Let's talk about the kid. I mean, I think this
is a subject we could talk a long time about,
but I do want to talk about it because, uh,
you kind of when you announced this record and how
you were going to do it. This really shouldn't be
that dramatic, but but it is, because this is the culture,

(01:05:43):
this is the world we live in. Yes, tell tell
us how you're releasing it, why it's important to release
it this way, and maybe go into how it's been
received so far.

Speaker 5 (01:05:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:05:57):
Well, you know, it's been a life. It's been a
whole lifelong journey of me. You know, a part of
me is a completely weirdo artist, and the other half
of me is I've got a very business entrepreneurial mind
and a lot about the music business has never made
any sense to me.

Speaker 5 (01:06:16):
And the problem with.

Speaker 6 (01:06:18):
The music business as is is once things toxic ideas
become normalized, they're no longer viewed as toxic. But I
remember thinking this is I'm in two thousand, I'm reading
an article. Well, the first songs that I ever wrote,
I'll start with this. The first songs that I ever wrote.
I barely knew how to write songs, played guitar and

(01:06:39):
sing at the same time. I made a recording of them.
That album is called Stack of Dreams. First I recorded
the first eight songs I ever wrote, Stack of Dreams.
I go to the CD store on Tuesday, because that's
when it gets released back then, and I illegally parked
in front of school kids records on his spor streets.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
Yes, and I remember, right, yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:07:05):
And so anyways, uh, you know, I I run in
there and I want to see if I got my
own like placard, you know, Thad Cocker.

Speaker 5 (01:07:14):
I did not room to grow.

Speaker 6 (01:07:17):
But I picked up my my CD and there it
was for nine ninety nine, and I.

Speaker 5 (01:07:22):
Was like, oh, I can't believe there it is. You know,
it's in the actual stores.

Speaker 6 (01:07:26):
And then right next to me is my favorite songwriter
of all times abc D, Bob Dylan, And so I
pick up his new album and it is as well,
nine ninety nine. And I remember thinking, then my album
shouldn't cost the same as Bob Dylan's. Yeah, I'm glad,
I'm glad I got the I'm glad I cut the line.

(01:07:48):
But my album shouldn't cost the same as Bob Dylan's
and why because it's they're not the same value. And
the problem with the music business is they treat music
like a monolith and it just isn't you know, And
no other and no other business is anything created as
a monolith.

Speaker 5 (01:08:05):
Like you want a.

Speaker 6 (01:08:06):
Guitar, Well, every guitar is thirty dollars, right, I want
to go source the most amazing woods and I want
to like spend my whole it doesn't.

Speaker 5 (01:08:15):
Matter it's thirty bucks.

Speaker 6 (01:08:18):
You're like, well, that doesn't make sense for me because
I want to make something great, but it's clearly making
sense for somebody.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
Yeah, literally making sense.

Speaker 5 (01:08:27):
Yeah, you know. And so.

Speaker 6 (01:08:30):
These are all ideas that I've just been walking around with,
and a lot of times I'm like, why do I
think about this stuff?

Speaker 5 (01:08:36):
You know?

Speaker 6 (01:08:37):
And now I know, you know, I'm grateful for it.
But I remember also reading about in Mojo magazine. There
was a long form story about one of my top
five favorite albums of all times, which was Marvin Gaye's
What's going On. And at that point, Marvin gay was
a black man singing white man's music. He was singing
the Algorithm and the head of Berry of Motown Records,
Berry Gordy, was printing money on singing the Algorithm, and

(01:09:01):
he didn't want to do it. He couldn't do it.
He just couldn't do it any longer. And so he
went and he made What's going On? And Barry Gordy's like, listen,
I know what your people want. They don't want fish
full of mercury, and they don't want you know, all
these songs about you know, brothers killing brothers.

Speaker 7 (01:09:15):
Man.

Speaker 6 (01:09:15):
They want you know, you know, my girl, you know.
And he was like, dude, I can't do it, and
so he plays it for Barry and Barry's is like, okay,
you know, go make it, and he's like, no, this
is the album. And Barry thinks it's such a piece
of junk that he now he was he was selling

(01:09:36):
multi platinums of anything, that meaning multimillions of anything that
he released on Marvin Gaye at this point single two
or three x you know, album two or three x platinum. Right, Well,
he thinks it's such a piece of junk that he
only pressed up two hundred and fifty thousand copies of
it and guess what he accidentally created scarcity. Yeah, and

(01:09:59):
without City, there's no value. So I'm like, that's interesting.
And I didn't know why I that. Now I've carried
that story in my brain. There's some other salacious information
in that in that in that uh that article that
I won't get into, which is, you know, really funny

(01:10:21):
and interesting, But that's not the thing that I found
most compelling that I've always remembered. And there was a
six month waiting list to get that album. And the
only way that you could hear that album is if
you went and found someone that had it, and you
had to sit down and listen to it and then
all of a sudden, music gets to do what music
does best, and that's create connection. And right now music

(01:10:43):
isn't even set up to create connection. And I would
like to help bring back where music is, you know.
So I just was literally someone dmd's like, well, how
am I supposed to share, you know, your album if
I buy it, you know, have someone come over to
my house else and play it for them. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yes,

(01:11:04):
and I and I and I don't think as great
as as what's going on is, I don't think it
becomes what it becomes if Barry would have pressed up
a million copies out of the get go. Sure, I
think it needed that six month gestation where it created
connection and it just created and so, you know, I

(01:11:26):
think in hindsight without you know, I think it takes
some guts to trust that the music is going to
do that.

Speaker 5 (01:11:34):
More importantly, that people are going to do that.

Speaker 6 (01:11:35):
Yeah, but you know, I was like, uh man, you
know what I Spotify, It really Spotify is the They're
the you know, when I had the number one song
in the world, Spotify couldn't have cared less about swinging, right,
They could not have cared less, they didn't do anything
with it. Now, these are people that are making a

(01:11:57):
number one song in the world, number two albums in
the world, that people are buying it, and Spotify is
giving it in the middle finger, and I'm like, you're
not giving me.

Speaker 5 (01:12:06):
These are people saying that this is.

Speaker 6 (01:12:08):
The song that they want to be number one in
the world, and you guys are treating it like something
that it isn't. And you know what, I think you
picked on the wrong on the wrong dude. I'm going
to take my music and I'm going to go elsewhere
and I think I'm better than you, and I do.
I think I'm better than the bullshit platform of Spotify. Yeah,

(01:12:30):
and and so that's this is where it's led me
to this. My thought is, if ideas were stocks, the
idea that people will no longer buy music, that stock
is an all time low where he's supposed to buy
stocks as low as possible.

Speaker 5 (01:12:46):
So I'm all in, and it's a response.

Speaker 1 (01:12:49):
Well, the response is it is going to be too
full though, right, So I mean response from your fans
so you have a base, yeah, and then the response
from industry.

Speaker 6 (01:12:58):
I don't care about the response the industry I absolutely.

Speaker 5 (01:13:02):
Do not care.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
But what has it been, Well, they haven't.

Speaker 5 (01:13:05):
They haven't given any response because they don't want to.
They don't want to.

Speaker 6 (01:13:09):
But I will tell you this, my dear friend Paul Roper.
He won't get any heat for this now. I used
to not use his name, but he just passed away.
He's a dear friend of mine. He was the president
of Dual Tone Records, which is you all don't know.
That's like the lumineers Mount Joy. It's a very successful
label and he's put out, you know, albums of mine.

(01:13:31):
And when I got done with a kid, we went
out to breakfast and the same day he was like, Hey,
if something happens to me, you know, would you sing
one of.

Speaker 5 (01:13:39):
Your songs at my service. I'm like yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:13:41):
And then I was telling him about the kiddie and
I think he was interested in maybe releasing it, and
I was like, you know what, I always ask myself,
what would you do if you couldn't fill And in
twenty thirteen, when Spotify first hit the shores of the
United States, I told all the guys in leagues, we
shouldn't put it up on Spotify and we should sell
it four hundred dollars and.

Speaker 5 (01:13:58):
They're all like, hell no.

Speaker 6 (01:13:59):
I'm like, artist shouldn't be well behaved man, artists, And
this is one thing I would tell the artists. Stop
being well behaved. Stop going along the float. Stop stop
it's not going to work out for you. Pay attention
to your gut and know how crazy that is telling
you trust it, you know? And and so anyways, I

(01:14:23):
was there having breakfast with Paul and I said, well, Paul,
I'm not going to put it up on any of
the DSPs, and I'm going to sell it for four
hundred dollars, not going to sell a million copies of it.
And I don't know how that's going to happen, but
that's what I'm going to do. And he's like, and
I said, well, Paul, you, knowing what you know about
the rig system, if you were me, would.

Speaker 5 (01:14:44):
You put it up for free on Spotify?

Speaker 6 (01:14:46):
And what do you think? He told me, No, exactly.
Do you know I've told this story to over three
hundred people. Do you know there's only been five people
that said the word yes. Isn't that crazy?

Speaker 5 (01:14:57):
That's crazy that everyone knew what he said? Yeah, that's
called common sense.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Yeah, well it's also.

Speaker 5 (01:15:03):
But who am I to go against common sense? It's business,
it's business, but it's common sense.

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
It's common sense business.

Speaker 6 (01:15:10):
Yes, so it goes back. You know, it's not really
that radical. It's like, no, he knew, and he's said,
and then he followed up with exactly what I knew.
He's like, because you're gonna put up on Spotify and
then the numbers aren't going.

Speaker 8 (01:15:19):
To be good.

Speaker 6 (01:15:20):
You might get a couple of playlists, but then you're
completely screwed.

Speaker 5 (01:15:23):
And I think.

Speaker 6 (01:15:23):
Spotify it thinks that artists are way too scared because
we need affirmation, and you.

Speaker 5 (01:15:30):
Know, like artists are too scared, they are too scared
and not me.

Speaker 6 (01:15:34):
Yeah, And so what's happened is is I made more
money in the two week presale than I did thirteen
years combined on Spotify.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
That's insane. That's insane.

Speaker 6 (01:15:45):
Have I broken even? No, I have not, but I'm
going to. But in those thirteen years, one would speculate
if I heard this, this is how cynical I could be.
I'd be like, William must not be any good. You
know that's not being good? Okay, Well, then those thirteen
years I had Super Bowl commercials of massive commercials for Boss,

(01:16:06):
which was a worldwide campaign, tons of movies, tons of
TV shows, a number one song in the world that
people bought on Spotify, number two albums that today showed
that tonight's show, all of that, and Spotify was still
like and even right now, if I go to my
monthly listeners on Spotify, I have about eighty five hundred
listeners a month, which is horrible. But what they're telling

(01:16:28):
me is, well, the market's telling us that you're worth
twenty six hundred dollars a year. That's what the payout
for that is. I made twenty six hundred dollars last month,
so they are way undervaluing me. And I would say
to even whatever that equation is, to even someone that's like,
well I got ten million, to any artists that's like

(01:16:50):
I got ten million listeners a month, I would say,
the same equation proves like you're still being undervalued and
they are still believing that you would rather give them
that much more money than bet on yourself. So I'm
creating a whole platform, yeah, that will allow artists to
set their own price, because who am I to tell
you what your music is worth?

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
You know, I mean when you say, you're creating a
platform with that, what does that mean?

Speaker 6 (01:17:16):
It's literally a platform that is going to be what
whatever Apple is to IBM, that's what this is to Spotify.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:17:24):
Yeah, and it's gonna allow artists to have access to
their fans. But it's gonna let it's gonna allow artists,
it's gonna it's gonna put the control back in the
artist's hands. And you know, I'll ask you this, do
you think that there's five hundred people in the world.
This is really what I'm after is, do you think
that there's five hundred people in this world that would

(01:17:44):
spend five hundred thousand dollars on a jay Z song
if they knew they were the only ones that got
to play it when they went over to their buddy's
house or when their buddy got in the car or
it hung out. Yeah, yes, the look that yes, do
the numbers. Jay Z has never made that kind of
money on one song.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
Yeah, right, I'm with you, and I think I think
that it's easy for I'm going to try to frame
this the right way. I'm not going to, though, It's
easy for smaller artists to say, yeah, well that's built

(01:18:25):
this thing over the last whatever, yeah, last twenty thirty years. Yeah,
he can do that. He can put out a record
for a hundred bucks. I can't do that. I only
have you know, whatever your followers are, whatever you think
your basis. Yes, And what I say to that is
that's also BS because I can tell you right now,

(01:18:47):
even as somebody who's not tracking anywhere musically, Yeah, I
could sell something for a hundred bucks to twenty thirty
one hundred people exactly. And that's something to me that's
way more than what I would get. Yes, streaming.

Speaker 5 (01:19:01):
Yes, this is correct.

Speaker 6 (01:19:04):
And and and to go back to what I was
saying about the jay Z, here's here's what I really
want though. Do you think that jay Z would make
the same sounding song if you knew he was going
to make that kind of money? Now, don't you want
to hear it?

Speaker 1 (01:19:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:19:18):
Me too.

Speaker 6 (01:19:19):
And right now we don't hear music from ambition. We're
hearing music. It's all based on scarcity. The whole system
is based top to bottom. It's all run on scarcity.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
And it's also an easy uh not easy, sorry, it's
also another way of beating things like AI that's coming in.

Speaker 5 (01:19:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:39):
For songwriting, Yeah, you're going to be challenged now, like, oh,
somebody's going to pay a hundred bucks for this record,
I better make it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
Well.

Speaker 6 (01:19:45):
This platform, this platform is there is no algorithm and
it's AI free generated music, meaning that there's there's no
music on it that is generated from AI.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
What does this platform have a name?

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
Is this?

Speaker 5 (01:19:59):
What is it? I can't share yet.

Speaker 1 (01:20:00):
You're not ready.

Speaker 5 (01:20:01):
I'm not ready.

Speaker 6 (01:20:02):
When you are ready, I got a brilliant I got
a brilliant team around me.

Speaker 5 (01:20:05):
That's that's doing it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
And whenever you're ready, I would love to plug it
on here.

Speaker 5 (01:20:09):
I would love to. I would love to.

Speaker 6 (01:20:11):
I would say to the artist that's like, they're like, well,
you've got a bunch of people.

Speaker 5 (01:20:15):
Listen. I only had an email list of thirteen hundred people.
That's not a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
Yeah, but also it's totally fair that you have a bunch.
You have a career, you've been doing that.

Speaker 6 (01:20:23):
Yes, but that is not a lot of people. And
so here's one of the things that I had to
I had to learn and repent from. And I learned
this mostly at church. Is whoever you got is who
you got. Those are your people, yes, And I was

(01:20:44):
more obsessed with who didn't show up than who did.
I was more obsessed with the people that didn't buy
my album than the ones that did. And what I
should have been doing the entire time is double down
and on the people that did show up, in giving
them value, giving them connection, because if you do that,
those ten people turn into thirty and those thirty people

(01:21:07):
and you keep doubling down on that, and those thirty people,
those are your fans. And I think part of the
massive live behind Spotify is like, well, what about the
people you miss?

Speaker 5 (01:21:16):
Well, that's not that's not it.

Speaker 6 (01:21:18):
It's not a carot, it's a news because the tourist
statement is if you ain't for everybody, well you miss everyone? Yeah,
you miss everybody, right, And so you know, that's the
problem with Spotify is that you're betting that you're going
to meet You're going to hit a lot of people
that you don't know. Go with the people that you know,

(01:21:39):
Go with the people that know that love your music.

Speaker 5 (01:21:41):
You know, get out.

Speaker 1 (01:21:42):
How well yeah, before all of the streaming stuff, you
would tour and you would go find your fan base. Yes,
base yeah, yeah is the keyword there. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:21:53):
So I just decided who do I make? I make
music for people that value music is art. And if
you don't value music is art, I don't make music
for you. Yeah, just play it simple.

Speaker 1 (01:22:02):
I don't think that's so bad.

Speaker 5 (01:22:04):
No, No, you gotta you gotta choose who you lose.

Speaker 1 (01:22:06):
Right, choose who you lose. I like that last question.
Are you ready? You have one record to listen to
as if it's the first time you've ever heard it again. Now,
I'm going to tell you while you're thinking. I asked
this question to Leland. Yeah, he was on here a
few weeks ago, and I guess which record he said,

(01:22:28):
and the audio got lost, so I can't even prove
it other than my brother was here. His record was
to be Loved.

Speaker 6 (01:22:37):
Really Yeah, that's beautiful, man, isn't that great?

Speaker 5 (01:22:43):
That's really really special. I mean, of all the albums
out there.

Speaker 1 (01:22:47):
I know, that's what I said. It's like, there's so many.
I'm just kidding.

Speaker 5 (01:22:50):
That's kind of overwhelming for me to hear.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):
It's it's great. Yeah, and what and from such a
songwriting Oh yeah, yeah, g yes, I mean he's just
he's wild. He was a good hang.

Speaker 5 (01:23:06):
That's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:23:09):
Uh So my album Sorry to Me to make you
tear up.

Speaker 6 (01:23:13):
Man, if I could go back and hear any album
for the first.

Speaker 5 (01:23:20):
Time, Oh wow, Man, that's hard.

Speaker 1 (01:23:41):
It's a loaded question.

Speaker 6 (01:23:42):
It would probably, it would probably it would probably be
Neil Young's Harvest Moon. It would be Neil Young's Harvest
Moon or Van Morrison's Moon Dance.

Speaker 5 (01:23:56):
I I Into the Mystic.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
Life changers for you.

Speaker 5 (01:24:00):
Yeah. Into the Mystic is.

Speaker 6 (01:24:02):
I had an amazing conversation with Tony Berg, who is
a staunch atheist. And I've never met an atheist that
wants to talk about God more than Tony Burg. I
always would joke with him. I'm like, I think you're
a righteous man. You're a very righteous man, a man
of deep faith. And he'd bristle at the thing. I'm like, no, man, listen,
I think in order for you to believe what you believe,

(01:24:23):
you don't know. But for you to believe what you believe,
I mean that takes an immense amount of faith.

Speaker 5 (01:24:28):
And I don't have that amount of faith. You know,
I'm jealous.

Speaker 6 (01:24:33):
And we would talk about God while we're making this album,
the existence or the non existence of God, and we
were talking about the recording of Into the Mystic and
Tony has impeccable taste and and it's one of those

(01:24:54):
songs that you wouldn't think Tony would be obsessed over
because Van Morrison is easy to to dismiss, you know,
maybe possibly uh if you're not really paying attention. But
he says, he says, he says, you know, it's in
one of his favorite recordings of all times. And he

(01:25:17):
says there's something else that happened in that room. And
that is the closest thing that I ever heard Tony
say that he believes that there might be some magic
in this world that he doesn't understand.

Speaker 5 (01:25:36):
And it took music to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:25:38):
Yeah, yeah, man, Yeah, I love that. Yeah, bad Cockrell,
thanks for being here. Where can people find you?

Speaker 6 (01:25:45):
On my website that find the record thatadcockrell dot com.
That's it's the only place you'll be able to uh
find the album. Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:25:56):
You get a small taste of it here on this
podcast with.

Speaker 6 (01:25:59):
Ye yeah, and you know if you go on my
on my Instagram, there's some snippets of songs. But yeah,
and and and it's not going up on if people
are holding out for Spotify's it ain't happening, uh, And
then I'm gonna keep releasing all my music in the
same way until we get this platform built and then

(01:26:21):
I'll put it all up there and amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:26:23):
Yeah, thanks so much for.

Speaker 6 (01:26:25):
Being Brandon, Thank you for having me. Thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:26:29):
Man, Let's do it again.

Speaker 5 (01:26:30):
Great questions. You're good at this.

Speaker 3 (01:26:42):
Such a great place to start.

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
Work Tapes is produced by Me Brandon Karswell. Filming and
editing for this episode by Sean Karswell. Special thanks to
Thad Cockroll and don't forget to subscribe to Work Tapes
wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:27:05):
Nana Nana, kid me out, Cocky, give me out, Kiddi

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Episode 60 - Thad Cockrell - What If

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 60 - Thad Cockrell - What If