Episode 63 - Matt Wertz - Rosalee

Matt Wertz, is an indie singer-songwriter whose soulful pop tunes have struck a chord with audiences worldwide. With his signature feel good indie rock-pop, Matt crafts songs that combine catchy melodies with nostalgic undertones. Throughout his career, he’s shared the stage with icons like Dave Barnes, Thad Cockrell, Jason Mraz, Ben Rector, and Gavin DeGraw, solidifying his place as a standout in today’s singer-songwriter scene. In this episode we discuss  early influences, his newest record, “Recently”, spotify for artists and we listen to the worktape of a song he co-wrote with Jon Foreman called “Rosalee”

Find Matt Wertz 

Listen to "Rosalee"

Worktapes is Produced by Brandon Carswell
Film & Editing by Shaun Carswell
  
Episode intro music written by Brandon Carswell & produced by Micah Tawlks - "Back To Us" Worktapes show cover art designed by Harrison Hudson
**All songs used by permission**

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Why did we even try? I don't know. We should
just go back to sleep, I know it.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Work Tapes. This is a podcast where we
tear up our songs. Why was the song written? What's
it about? What's the context and emotion behind it? Where
were you at the time, what were you going through?
How did certain lines come to you? What's the inspiration?
How long did it take to write? I'm Brandon Carswell
and I'm fascinated with songwriting and how songs are built

(00:38):
from the ground up. It's easy to hear a full
production song on the radio and dismiss its origin. Sort
I want to hear the rough raft of the song
or the work tape. I want to explore the very
beginning of how songs that move us and make us
move our born.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Rose Lip, pretty asleep on your family trip. Tell me
your secret when you close your ass, baby, but tell me.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
What where is see rose Lip? Sometimes it feelings so
for me.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
You feel it too, us holding your baby, or maybe
it's you me, Rosalie.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Don it please give lead to your cool?

Speaker 2 (01:49):
All right, everyone, Welcome to another episode of Work Tapes.
I'm Brandon Carswell. Today we are joined by a indie
singer songwriter with He's got like a signature feel good
indie rock sound, super poppy, super catchy. He's shared the
stage with artists like Dave Barnes, That Cockroll, Jason Raz,

(02:14):
Ben Rector, Gavin de Grau. I'm sure a ton more.
He's kind of made his way and secured his spot
among the best in songwriting. And his latest album is
called Recently produced by one of my best friends, Micah Talks. Today,
we're going to discuss this song with Rosa Lee and

(02:35):
listen to the work tape. Matt Wortz, thanks for being here.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
I remember when Micah was showing me your record and
I went, he showed me a couple of songs and
then I went and listened to the whole thing when
it came out, and I was, I.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Love that album, dude, Thanks too.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
It's like I was gonna wait for this part, but
I'm want to say it now, like it's it's a
little bit of a I would say, it's a lot
of a departure from your earlier works. Yeah, like it's
a different sound, but it's still you.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, that's what I hope to do always, you know,
I like I like that about being a solo artist
is that it seems like you can kind of pick
your band every time you make I make a record,
I feel like I get to uh, I get to
pick my band, you know. And you know, I've never

(03:30):
said that. I never like imagined that I would be
a producer in any uh sort of way. But I
the way that I produce is I pick the people
that I want to work with. Yeah, and I pick
you know, I am kind of like pulling the different
whether it's art, photographer, like design, all of these things

(03:54):
together to like make a thing. And Micah, I Mike
is name kept showing up in credits of stuff that
I loved, and I don't think i'd met him before
and realized that, oh, my old manager had worked with
him on Jeordie Searcy. He did a couple of tracks

(04:14):
for Jordie. So he connected me with Micah, and I
did a meeting with Micah, and I'd met with a
couple other producers as well, and I just felt like
very yeah, like a connection with Micah, and and it
just continued. We did it. We did a couple of songs,
so like try it out and then it was like

(04:38):
I knew after like the first day that I wanted
to keep. He's great to work he's easy to work with,
it's easy to work with, brilliant, I know, and I've
just like granted. Anytime that I work with somebody for
the first time, there's like a big like it's it's
like scary to like give, you know, because I don't know.

(05:00):
I know that he's done cool stuff for other people,
but I'm like, it's it is. And I just had
to like really actively like at times surrender, like, Hey.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
Do you ever wonder what the producers are? Like it's
a new guy you're not sure about, You're like, I
wonder if he likes this? Totally?

Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah it matters. I had a I worked on a
record that I did a record with a producer that
just didn't show much emotion, And yeah, it was really
hard for me. Like I I'd come from making records
with Ed Cash early in my career, who like just

(05:41):
gets pumped, you know, he gets he gets you can tell,
and that energy just feeds feeds you, feeds me, and
it's just like all right, And so it was tough
to like I feel like I was like yelling into
a pillow. You know, there was like, no, there was
no one on the other side of the net to

(06:02):
hit the ball back to me. Yeah, this is really tough.
But that was not the case with Micah at all.
I mean, and it was really it was a joy.
And if I could afford him again, I would totally
work with him. But like, ever since that, ever since
we made that record, his his like caused has just
kept going up. I'm like, dude, I don't know if

(06:23):
I'm ever going to recoup this record. I mean, I will,
but it'll be a while. And I'm like, I can't
justify I.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Kind of say the same thing. I've done some stuff
with him, and I would love to do more mm hmm.
And I think a lot of us that know and
worked have worked with him say the same thing. But
he sought after So yeah, he's worth it. It's not
like I don't feel like he's too expensive at all. No,
I think he's worth He's worth every penny.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
I agree, I just can't afford it. That's okay.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, let's get to to who is Matt Wurts, Like,
where where did you come from? Where did you start?
So people, you know, our listeners that may not know
your name or your background. This is the first time
I've actually met you, so I would like to know. Cool,
how did the music begin?

Speaker 1 (07:17):
Where did you? Yeah, go as far back as you
want great. Grew up in a suburb of Kansas City
called Liberty, Missouri. I'm the oldest of four. I've got
three younger sisters. My mom led worship in our non
denominational Christian church growing up, so she had a she

(07:37):
had like it's got an old Yamaha acoustic guitar that
was like her good guitar that like I wasn't really
allowed to touch until I, you know, knew what to
do with it. So that, honestly, pretty early on became
like a motivator to like I want to I want
to be able to play that. My actually funny story,

(07:57):
I'm like childhood good friends with James Dewis, who is
Reggie in The Full Effect, and he was in The
Get Up Kids and Good Charlotte. And but at the time,
I mean, James was just like, you know, we were
like brothers. And but James early on could play like everything,

(08:18):
and so my mom let him play her guitar, but
she wouldn't let me play it, and I'm like, I
want to play that guitar. It's not fair. It's not fair.
So I, you know, fast forward. I think I started
learning on her guitar. I was like my sixteenth birthday,

(08:40):
I got a Gibson Marauder electric guitar. It looks like
a Less Paul shape, but it's flat. It has a
maple it was a mahogany natural mahogany finish, but then
the fret board was maple and it had a flying
V looking headstock. Very cool guitar, and that was like,

(09:02):
so I started playing that. I started learning all sorts
of like you know, like lightning crashes, like how to
get the how to get the chorus sound on the guitar,
and pearl jam and counting crows and like totally like
a student of and fan of like nineties alt rock,

(09:23):
you know. And but I didn't write a song until
I went to college my freshman year, and I got
a I got my first good acoustic guitar, which was
a Tailor three twelve CE, and you know, it just
sounded different and it was easy to play, and you
play an e chord and it's like all these songs

(09:46):
just come just came out because it sounded so good.
And I was also like, you know, processing through like
being on my own for the first time and having
kind of the space to figure out who I am.
And you know, in the context of like a dorm dormitory,
there's like it's you know, you can hear what's going

(10:07):
on next door, So people would hear me playing guitar
and sing and like we're you know, this was this
was before like everybody had a guitar and was like
people would gravitate towards guitar guitar guy, and and I
kind of gained confidence through that and gradually started like
sharing the songs that I wrote, and it just kind

(10:30):
of kept building. I studied industrial design in college, which
is product design, and throughout but throughout college music writing
songs performing that that became my real passion. And I
had a band in college called Damascus Road, which was

(10:52):
my attempt at as my attempt at being like covertly
like Christian and uh, but I never wanted to be
a Christian art Yeah, my wife says, like, you think
that that name was covert Damascus Road, that's the most
like you know, so I wanted, you know, I was
into Cadman's Call and Jaws of Clay and Water Deep

(11:15):
and all these like all of those are the types
of like Christian artists that I like, you know, they
told the truth. And I was like, I really relate
with your Yeah, with what you're sharing, like about like
whether it's like you're feeling, like experiencing doubt or just

(11:35):
any kind of pain I've I didn't connect with like
the music of you know that like I was I
grew up on, which was kind of just like presenting
all the good things about like all all the gifts
of being a Christian. I was like, what about how
it's still hurt is hard to be a human, you know,
And so I kind of just wanted to do that

(11:59):
for people, you know, I wanted I wanted to to
be honest and vulnerable and then have that be a
connection point and hopefully like help other people to feel
like it was okay to be themselves and to think
those things, feel those things too. So that set me
on a trajectory to like that's all I wanted to do,

(12:22):
and I did a lot of Young Life. I grew
up in Young Life, which is a non denominational, like
Christian outreach to high school kids. I was. I went.
I was as a high school kid, I went to
weekly Young Life club and then in college I was
a volunteer leader. I was even a part time staff person.

(12:42):
My senior year, I got I got paid to do
Young Life and then they have camps all over the country.
And when I was in high school, I went to
I went to camp and there was a camp musician
there and who was an amazing at what they did.
And it like it was like another angle that another

(13:05):
entry point into, like hearing someone's story and the person
that I saw well too. I saw two different people.
My first time. I saw this guy Mitch Dane who's
in Nashville now making records for people, and then ed
cash and I saw ed that would have been like
ninety five ninety six and two different summers. So as

(13:29):
soon as I like started writing and singing songs, I'm like,
that's what I want to do. I want to I
want to go to a camp and I just want
to hang out with high school kids and play the
songs that I've written. And I got to do that
for a lot of years and it was like the best.
It was like the best, Like it was such a

(13:52):
a like what's what's the word when two points meet?
You know, it was like the Venn diagram of like
what I was good at and then like and also
like it just felt like this is where I'm supposed
to be. And and through that, you know, I built
a following, you know, like all over the Midwest and

(14:14):
then into Colorado. All these kids would come home with
my CD, which at that time was a record called
Some Days that I made with my old Young Life
leader Steve Wilson, who had moved to Nashville and was
a writer, producer.

Speaker 4 (14:31):
And.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, dude, it was amazing. I paid off. It was
a very low budget record and I was able to
pay that off after my first summer, and then I
moved to Nashville, and except for like a couple of
like freelance websites that I built, I never had to
get another job. Kids will buy some records, they buy,

(14:54):
they bought CDs. That was in two thousand and one,
and for several years CDs were great, yeah, you know,
and then and then iTunes downloads, and you know that
was also great.

Speaker 2 (15:09):
Okay, so let's let's go all the way back. Why
were you interested in music? So you uh, you grew up,
your mom did worship music in the church.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
But what what was your spark, Like, what.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Was the moment where you were like, oh, there's something
here that is appealing to me, and what was that?

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Well, early on it was Michael Jackson. Yeah, I mean
like me too. By the way, dude, when I was little,
how can you avoid I got my parents weirdly gave
me Thriller on vinyl for Easter, Like one year I
had bad My parents had that on vinyl. It's so good. Yeah,

(15:50):
so good, It's so good. It's bad yeah wow yeah yeah,
and it's also yeah. So Michael jack was early. But
was it?

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Was it uh the music or were you like I
want to be that guy.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
I think I wanted to be that guy. But I
also loved like I wanted to, you know, move, I
love to dance. I wanted to like dance like him.
I wanted you still love to dance. According to your
Instagram feed, Yeah, oh yeah, I'm a whole dancer. I
just let I just let the music move through me.
That's right, that's what you're supposed to do rhythm as
a dancers.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
Man.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
So I do love to dance, and uh yeah, I
think that was the first thing. And then I think
in high school or middle school, like no, it was
probably junior high that's when like Pearl Jam and Nirvana happened.
And I still remember like seeing Pearl Jam for the
first time. I was on A or my family was

(16:53):
on a We don't we didn't have cable TV growing up,
like because it was I mean, honestly, I don't I would.
I don't blame my folks for it, you know, like
it's probably like like saying like we're not going to
do iPads in our house, you know. So we didn't
have cable TV, but we went to a family reunion.
We stay in this motel in the like middle of
western Kansas, and they had cable TV in the motel

(17:15):
and I remember like my parents, my family going to
like eat in the motel restaurant and I'm like, I'll
be right there. And when they left, I turned on
MTV and I saw the I saw even Flow, and
I was like, what is this, Like this is the

(17:40):
greatest thing I've ever seen. And I think, I I mean,
I was, I was like.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
That's so interesting that like grundrock pulls you in to
the music that you that you ended up doing.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
I think it was the it's the I believed it,
and that's still a thing for me, Like I've got
to believe that the singer means it. And if the
if a voice is like full of like yearning and longing,
and like I'm like, yeah, I believe it. That person's

(18:14):
like they're not lying, you know, And I'm drawn to that.
And I think I was drawn to that back then,
especially when I felt like like maybe you know, some
of the bands, some of the like Christian music that
was being like offered up to me and like just

(18:34):
felt a little disingenuous or something. So I think I
think I was like, you know, they might be like
not Christians or whatever, but like they are at least
I at least believe them.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
So your early stuff was pretty spot on Christian.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
My music, Yeah, what I made it was now it wasn't.
Actually I kind of like I kind of knew early
on that that was not something for me.

Speaker 4 (19:05):
You know.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
I didn't want the responsibility, I think, and I also
didn't see any reason why you'd want to like limit
your audience to say like this is for this audience
of people. Now it worked for like a young life
crowd because there were like I was definitely writing songs

(19:25):
about God, I just didn't use like overt language.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, so, well, how much of your faith still informs
your writing? That's a good question, I think that Or
do you think that much about it? I guess I
probably don't think that much about it. But I've also
been I've kind of had a reckoning recently that not

(19:51):
to not to throw about throw out or you know,
make a reference to my album title, which is of
the same name. Recently, I've realized that I need to
kind of reconnect with the thing that made me want
to start writing in the first place, which used to
like to to connect with myself first and foremost, and

(20:14):
then you know, for the purpose of connection with other people.
And I realized I think I realized that, like as
soon as I had any kind of as soon as
I realized it was working, I wanted to make sure
it still worked. And so then I just was more concerned,

(20:35):
like my writing, was more concerned about is this going
to be something that people like less less than like,
am I connected with it? You know what I mean?
So nowadays you're more you're more or you're getting back
to being concerned with what you think about it.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
That's what I like to That's always the goal, or
at least that I'm telling the truth.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Sure, because we all want everyone to like our music, yes,
and of course our music is not for everyone.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Right, But I think the only reason I want everybody
to write to like my music is so that I
can keep making it.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, I really would you stop if it was like
if if if you had to go get another job,
like a nine to five, would you stop writing?

Speaker 1 (21:25):
I don't think I would stop writing, but I think
I probably would have less time to write. Yeah. Of
course might mean that I probably would write better songs
because some of the like my favorite myth that's interesting
topic writing was having like index cards in my pocket
and a pen, and I was working like a summer job,

(21:49):
like ruting on the maintenance crew of this apartment complex.
And I would be you know, building a rock like
a like a rock patio like a deck or of
like stone patio thing, and I would just have my
I would just have all this time, yeah, from my
mind to wander, and I'd like have ideas and I
write it down and now, uh, yeah, I don't have

(22:14):
the that kind of active idle time you know, where
you're doing something else and it's like mindless work and
then your brain gets to kind of like play. And
I think that that's such a like it's important, it's
an important thing. It's it's tough too because now with
with the smartphones, like we don't have idle time period,

(22:34):
It's like there's always something unless we like deliberately put
it away. Ye. But yeah, so who knows. Maybe it
would be good for me to get another job and
one that's like manual labor or something where I'm just like.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, because that you know, like if you have too
much time, like you just said, too much idle time,
you're not You're not really not always, but you're not
You're not always in I know, And You're like I'll
find myself sometimes like if I have a day off
or whatever and my kids aren't here, I just walk

(23:08):
in the house. I'm like what should I do? Yeah,
And I'm like, well, I could write, or I could
get this done or this done, or do this project
or whatever, and then I just end up standing there
for twenty minutes trying to figure out what to do. Yeah, when,
like you said, like if I was working that day
on some manual labor or whatever it is, the ideas
start coming.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
There's a one, you know, you know how Instagram is
just stuff will just pop up on your feet. Yeah.
I don't know how this found me, but you know, honestly,
like nineunds, nine times out of ten, it's like a
bull's eye hit. And there was one I can't remember.
It could have also been something that my friend posted,
but it was Johnny Cash talking about his songlinding process,

(23:48):
and he was talking about how like, I'm not really
the kind of person that can say, like, next Tuesday,
I'm going to write a song. But if I say
next Tuesday, I'm gonna go to the farm and walk around,
pretty good chance that next Tuesday night I'm going to
write a song. Yes, And so there's something of the like, okay,

(24:10):
so what is it that what do I need? How
do I need? How do I feed myself so that
I can so that I'm creating the environment that a
song can be the song can grow. And that's kind
of becoming. I'm in this spot now that I have

(24:30):
a fifteen month old son and we have another one
on the way in July, thank you, And what is
the tension that I'm feeling is that, like, it doesn't
look like work for me to go and take a
walk at Radner while my wife is home with our son.

(24:56):
But I might need to do that that I can
do my work. And I'm I'm like, you'll find you'll
find those moments just in parenting. I mean you you
probably already have where like the idea, Yeah, and I've
got this little do you know, are you familiar with
lugue guitars? The three string three of them? Aren't they amazing?

(25:17):
So I'll I'll bring Walker up to my studio, my
little writing office, and and he gave me, my wife
gave me one of those for Father's Day, the Father's
day that we were pregnant with Walker, but he hadn't
been born yet, so like we kind of celebrated Mother's

(25:37):
Day and Father's Day with you know, while he was
in uterow. And so it's his guitar. You know it
will be someday, but I'll play on that, and you know,
while like with him and have him play, and ideas
will come all the time. You know, it's just a
matter of kind of.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
I'll tell you a question a trick I used when
early on I told you my kids are ten and
thirteen right now. Early on, when it was like baby
phase and like everything's just like kind of chaos and
you don't have time to write, like you just don't.
You got a family and you're doing the whole thing.
I realized I would always you probably do this. I

(26:19):
don't know you, but I just will guess you do this.
You just make up songs to your kid. Yeah, and
they're stupid, yeah, record them yeah on your phone, and
rewrite them cause the hooks are like real yeah, because
you're not thinking about it and you're trying to make
your kid.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Laugh or something. That's a good idea.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
I've had a couple of songs where I wrote them
and they're super hooky, and I'm like, where did that
come from? As a kid song?

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Dude? Isn't it funny how? I mean kids gravitate towards
the most basic dope me.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, you say they're basic, but I mean they're really
We're just having fun.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
I know that's what it is.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
And I think sometimes like for me for sure, I'll
get too heady, h like I need this to mean something,
I need this to I need this to impress so
and so, uh huh. Because I'm thinking about this band
or this producer or whatever. Yeah, I wanted to hook,
And the more I focus on that, the less good.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
I know. That's a great call. I'm going to do that.
I've got one that is that I repeatedly will sing. Yeah,
you want me to sing it for you? Please? Okay.
His name's Walk. My son's well you need a guitar
and no, no, no it doesn't. It's always acapella. Okay. So,
and it's often when I'm like holding him, but it goes.

(27:42):
Walker Stu is Midi Niam Stewart, which is also my
middle name and my dad's middle name and my grandmother's
maid a name Walker Stu. He's the man. Clap your
feet and stomp your hands, smile wide with your eye,
Walker Stewart, you're my guy. It's perfect to hit.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
I did that with my son asat. I forget the song,
but it was very similar, just like making songs.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
And it's I like, how silly it is, like clap
your feet. He didn't know. Part of me is like
it's gonna be fun to like, you know, program him
like wrong, you know, and see what happens, Like, yeah,
you clap your feet. It's in the song stop your Hands.
That's probably the extent of which I'll try to, like,
you know, program him wrong. But it's silly. You know,

(28:36):
it's silly, and kids like silly songs.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
You'll keep pro programming the wrong one, okay, whether I'm
trying to or not. And I'm like, hey, y'all should
listen to Nirvana now, and they're like, oh and oh wait,
that's pretty dark, yeah, but they love it. I do
want to talk a little bit about that album recently.
I would love to talk about that album, like I

(29:01):
mentioned at the top of this episode, arguably sounds much
different than anything else you've done. Did did some of that?
What I want to ask is, was that due to writing, production,
all of the above, like the point in your life,
and did it freak you out at all?

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Are you speaking just like of the like style of music,
like the the.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Style of different The style is different. But I think
even because I went to prep for this, I went
through a bunch of your records and I have time
to listen to all of them. I listened to a
bunch of the key songs, and what I knew and
this record, and I mean this so kindly, is more mature,

(29:49):
cool as it goes as it should go, right, Yeah,
but it's a different Yeah, it's different.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
So okay, so here's maybe that's not a knock on anything.
I don't take it as that. I mean, we're like, no,
I don't.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
There's a couple of things I think, and there's and
you know, somebody else might point out some of the things.
But one one big thing is that at some point
I realized that I wanted I wanted to make records

(30:24):
that I wanted to listen to, like that kind of
back to that idea of like picking your band. I'm like,
if I look at like what I'm drawn to, like
like what I'm streaming, would would songs from this? I
want songs from this next project to fit on a

(30:45):
playlist of other stuff that I'm currently liking. If I'm not,
then what am I doing? You know? If this doesn't resemble?
And and the first kind of like that light bulb
went on before I made Gunshy, which was the last
studio album that I made before recently, and it's a
pop It's an LA pop record, And that was a time.

(31:07):
It was twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen when I went to
LA and like kind of just wrote with people there
to at least to start. And I did end up
writing a couple of songs with LA or Nashville based
writers and producers too, but I kind of got like
ninety percent of the record done in LA And that

(31:31):
was totally a function of, like, I want to like
my music, you know, And so with this record, I
had to look at like, Okay, what am I listening to?
And it was more organic instruments, but they didn't the
instruments didn't often sound like they didn't maybe didn't always
sound recognizable, or they weren't like just plainly miked, you know,

(31:55):
and so instruments, the tone of the guitar or that
it was just like kind of weird, you know. I
just wanted to sound a little more interesting, and so,
you know, I was so that from sonically that informed
working with Micah. From a writing standpoint, I made a

(32:21):
conscious decision to like write more by myself. I had
gone when I moved to town, was only writing by myself,
and then I gradually started co writing more and more
until the twenty sixteen album The Pop Record, Like it
was all one hundred percent co writes, Oh do you
like co writing, you seem like a people person. So

(32:42):
I do like co writing, and I really love making
things with people. I love the process of I love
collaborating on anything. It's fun. I feel like it's like
you get something, and that's the tough thing is like
you you get something that you wouldn't have gotten before,
but then you also sacrifice maybe. And the thing that

(33:03):
I was wanting to reconnect with was like this core
of like what do I have to say and how
do I say it? And I was hoping and my
intent was to reconnect with how I write, like how
I say things, you know, because that is like something
that's that's one of the few things that I have

(33:24):
to offer, you know, in terms of what makes me unique.
Was like how do I how would I say it?
And so I really was get putting the time into
like going up to my room and being by myself
and staring at a blank sheet of paper. It's like,
as you know, it's terrifying to like do that, and

(33:47):
I think you don't have to do that in this
town because there's so many talented people.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah, but it's it can also be terrifying to go
into a room. It can be with someone I feel like.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
I know, especially if you've never written with them before
or you don't have any ideas you know that you're
bringing in.

Speaker 4 (34:08):
But I.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Had just been andy and I had just gotten married,
and I was kind of for the years leading up
to that, I wasn't really like making anything. I was
kind of trying other things out, like I was doing
brand consulting and doing things to try to like honestly
avoid the pain of putting something out that you loved

(34:34):
and not like financially, like being something that eases the burden.
Because Gunshy the pop record, I was like, I love this,
and I think Gunshy was the first time since my
first couple of records of my career that I felt
like a real freedom of I'm just having fun, I'm

(34:55):
just doing this for me.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
Do you think those first records so like one of
your big songs is this called five twelve right, five nineteen,
five nineteen, say five nineteen, do you feel like?

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (35:08):
So, I'm always curious when an artist has a song
that kind of hits, do they feel the burden of
repeating that or do you feel like, I whatever, that's
what it is, I'm gonna go do what I want.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Well, I've definitely felt like, yeah, you want to have
another song that does that thing, because it's it's a
little bit like having a car that you are like
trying to like lift, and when you have a when

(35:43):
you have when this rope that is attached to the
car is like hooked up to a pulley or a
system of pulleys, you can like lift it with one hand,
It's like no big deal. And that system of pulleys
is like a hit song. And I didn't have like
a hit song in the terms of like this wasn't
on the radio, it didn't really like but in the
days of like burning CDs for friends and like music spreading,

(36:06):
you know that way, it was kind of a grassroots
like it did. It did connect, and it did.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Your audience to be a number one song being a
great popular song.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
So I certainly wanted that to happen again. Did I
like try to stylistically duplicate that, No, but I definitely
was trying to like have another And the funny thing
is that the record that that was on was following
up was following up at a record that was kind of
like the one that people found out about me on

(36:37):
it's called the album is called twenty three Places. That
was the first record I made with Ed Cash producing
and Dave Barnes was Dave was like kind of like
helping Ed at the time and ended up kind of
co produce. I mean he didn't kind of he co
produced that record. So it was like me and Dave
and Ed making twenty three Places and it really resonated.

(36:58):
It took a long time to make because I was
kind of like would work on it when he because
he was doing it on the cheap for me, and
so we had like all this time for first new
songs to come and to like go back and be
like is that how we want it to be? And
so all I had to say the record with five

(37:18):
nineteen on it was was like the one where I
was like, man, I've got some big boots to fill here,
and they're my own boots, and I hope and I
do feel like we delivered.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
Now.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
Granted I don't think that it's no. You can't really
you can't really contend with someone's first time hearing you
your voice, like you think back to the artist that
you're in love with. It's like oftentimes it's that first
record it's that first exposure to that song or those

(37:53):
a group of songs that like, that's what is the
definition of that artist, you know, And it's tough to
it's tough as an artist to like fight against that
and you just have to kind of. Yeah. Now, I
think by the time I got to Gunshy in twenty sixteen,

(38:13):
and then certainly with recently, I've like plateaued as far
as like feeling this trajectory that happened earlier in my career,
so I felt more freedom to just do what I
want to do. Yeah, And so with with recently, I think,
you know, this would this would have been like my

(38:34):
second go at just making something for me. What was
the span between recently and your previous seven years? Okay,
so seven years seven years, which is crazy. Micah took
me to You did like a CD an album release.
I still say CD release me too.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
You did like an album release a venue called Analog, Yes, Micah.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Oh you went, I was there? Oh no, that's awesome.
You did like three nights that right, I was there
for one night. I think I only did one night
there and I did a couple of Oh you did
some other I did some other like things in my backyard. Actually, Okay,
that were Yeah, that that were like, you know, album released.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
My takeaway from that show, and the reason I'm saying
it is because you mentioned you were really honest on stage,
and these are like core people, your core fans came
yes from all over, all over, and this is you
mentioned that you hadn't done this in a long time.
You were nervous about doing it, ye, nervous about making

(39:42):
another record and putting it out there. It was a
fantastic show. Thanks, you pulled it off.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Great.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
You're an entertainer for sure. You've been dealing with like
hand cramps. I remember that, dude.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
So that was real. Man, It's real. And I mean
if you've ever been in that position before, it's like
it's the most like powerless place. Let go. Oh, but
you did a great job. You pulled it off.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
But I appreciated your honesty while at the same time
clearly having a blast. Thanks, and you killed every song.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
It was great. It was a show.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
And this will kind of lead us into talking about
Rosalie because that's the night I would have first heard
the song. Cool that we're talking about this song and
much to say. Let's just say it would be my
two favorites, and that night I heard both.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
Of them and I those were my two favorites. Dude,
I love that. Yeah, and obviously we were kind of
sorting through what song to talk about, and yeah, yeah,
we we.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
I I was the one having the problem because sometimes
for our listeners to know, like I'll the artists that
I interview will say what should we do and send
me a few And of the four that you sent,
I was like, I can't decide. That's great, Like those
two were on my list for sure, Bill, but they're

(41:16):
such great. I mean, you're such a great writer and
these songs are just so great. And I I only
know bits and pieces about Rosalie. I know you wrote
it with John Foreman and Tim Foreman of switch Foot
I would love to hear about that process that you
guys went through, like the writing part and then what

(41:37):
the song's actually about, those kind of things. But let's
listen to the work tape and then we'll jump into
all that.

Speaker 5 (41:42):
Great Rosebously on your Family Dream, Tell me you secret
when you close your hand, baby, tell me what's well?

Speaker 4 (42:03):
Do you see? Rosali?

Speaker 5 (42:08):
Sometimes it's feelingsa soul over me.

Speaker 4 (42:12):
You're feeling to us holding your baby.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
Baby, it's your heart of me a rosaldarn it.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
Please give my luck to your mom, don it? Please?
I was young and I was wrong. Comb me bring
into your home hoping in like me. B Rosely, don't
let this Worlson. You own to see who your heart,

(42:46):
who you are.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
And you feel like you're trying remember the truths free Rosalie,
darn it.

Speaker 5 (42:56):
Please get my luck to your mom died.

Speaker 4 (43:00):
Please? I was yong. That was wrong. How that peace
pray on to your home? I hope he ain't like me? Bothly,

(43:29):
done it? Please? You not sell your mom? Done it please?
I was yng that was wrong. How that ladies pray
on to your home. I hope he ain't like me Botly,
I hope being like me. Bothly holp me like me? Ego.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Okay, I love this work tape. First of all, thank you.
This of the work tapes you sent me, this is
the most fun one.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
It's it's got the it's almost got like a It's
a different energy than the record, but it's still it's
similar in that it's fun. Yeah, but it's kind of.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
This work tape is super playful. Yeah, which I like,
we really were, so maybe to start how the how
the whole like John and Tim thing happened we got connected.
I mean I'd met John several times before. Every time

(44:40):
I'm like making a fool out of myself because I'm
such a fan. Yeah, you know, I feel I would
do the same. And and and John is is a
really peaceful soul, and he kind of like doesn't rescue
you from your awkwardness, so he'll just like let you
you flounder. You know, isn't trying to like, isn't trying

(45:05):
to like help you out of like whatever meandering stream
of consciousness you're talking about, which is like what I
would do. So I had just gotten to La to
make to start writing. Gun Shy and Jamie Torkowski, my
friend from who started to write Love on Her Arms,
saw maybe something I had posted, and he's like, dude,

(45:28):
we're doing a We're doing a heavy and light event,
which is like this this like concert that they would
a big concert that they would do every year. And
there's a lot of like artists who came around the
to write Love on Her armis movement. It was going
to be at the hard Rock Cut or not the
House of Blues right on sunset, I think, and he's like,

(45:50):
you want to come and like pop in and do
a song or something. I'm like sure, And literally like
had just gotten to LA that day. So it's like
really fun kind of like I felt like I was
like landing in a you know, I was. I was
being caught by it, like there were I was wanted
there in La is like can be like a very
lonely place, and uh, and I went and like John

(46:13):
was there, and so I I after the show was like,
you know, chat hanging out, chatting, and you know, there's
some people around that I knew, and John was there,
and you know, somebody asked what I was doing there.
I was like, well, I just got here. I'm like
writing my next record, and John said, well we should
write one, and I was like, okay, let's do it.
And so I can't what were you thinking on that moment,

(46:36):
Like I was thinking, you're a fan of switch Foot
fan John? Yeah, I'm like, there's no way, there's no way.
Maybe he's being nice. I can't remember. I probably in
those situations want to give the person like an out,
you know, So I know you're probably just like I'm
not going to hold you to that. I know that

(46:56):
you're just being nice. I can't honestly remember if.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
It.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
I can't remember if I if I got his number personally,
or if i'd like, you know, left That introduction happened later,
but a couple weeks later, and I like drove down
to Insinitas to like San Diego, to like write with them,
and I went to their studio and got a huge
space that is you know, just like got tons of instruments.

(47:28):
I mean it's a playground, you know. And I had
just gotten back from holding my newborn niece. I just
i'd gotten gotten too la and then got word that
my sister was going into labor down in Texas. So
I like flew to Texas and was there for to

(47:50):
like for the delivery. I wasn't there in the room obviously,
but I was. I got to hold Rosalie the day
that she was born, and that my sister that had
Rosalie was is my next is the next sister, the

(48:10):
one who's like next in line from you know, like
I'm the oldest, she's the second oldest. And I just like,
for whatever, whether it was because I felt like she
was stealing my thunder or like ruining my party, my
because I'm four years older than her. I just you know,
clashed with her growing up, and it was like cruel

(48:32):
and you were alone and then and then and then
I wasn't and I was enjoying having the full attention
of all the adults, and so I was just like
cruel and and we kind of always had an adversarial relationship.
And interestingly enough, my sister has a little boy named Wesley,

(48:55):
who was exactly four years older than Rosalie, and so
there's like this, there's the same age span between Rosalie
and her older brother as my sister Abby and me.
And so the whole song is talking to this baby
and saying, I hope that your hope that your big
brother isn't as horrible to you as I was to

(49:19):
your mom.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Yeah, that's more interesting than how I initially took it,
which was like a someone you dated. It was like
I hope you knew guys not as bad as I.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Oh yeah, yeah, I've kind of wondered like how this song,
you know.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
Like it felt like I'm taking ownership of this bad
relationship I.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
Was in, and I was in, you know, was but
not not a romantic one, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well,
and I knew that I wanted it to kind of
feel like Paul Simon for some reason, I don't know,
And I think that I hope I came in with

(50:01):
the the title. I was like, I knew I wanted
to write that, and then the Paul Simon thing, and
I can't remember if that. I hope he ain't like me.
Rosalie is something I had ahead of time or not.

Speaker 2 (50:15):
But so you go in and you you have the title,
and you have do you have an idea of what
you want to write about Rosalie or you guys just
kind of suss it out on the.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Spot, probably said what I told you, yeah, like and
then you know, and then and then it just unfolds.
I found actually some like some voice memos from the
writing session as as we were preparing for this. I
was like going back to see if there's anything that
was like that would if.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
You want to share him, we can. I can weave
him into the actual work tape you ended up sending
me back.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
Yeah, but Tim, Tim made the work tape, I mean,
and while John and I were kind of like hammering
out like and you know, would have one you're into.
So he wasn't like totally, it wasn't sometimes when you're
writing with somebody who's on the computer, like their backs
to you the whole time. But yeah, like he was.
He was involved, but also you know, kind of like

(51:11):
advancing the ball of the demo. And yeah. The funny
thing is so that that song you know, was written
for that, you know, in the writing sessions for that record,
and then ultimately I was like, man, it's not doesn't
sound anything like anything else I'm making for this. It

(51:33):
just doesn't fit. But it always was one that I
thought was cool. So you wrote it seven or eight
years before? Yeah, I wrote it in like twenty fifteen. Yeah,
so yeah, it's like that's hard to hold on to
a great song for that long, it it is. And
also I don't think I knew you don't know it's

(51:53):
it's sometimes you don't know it's great until sure you
put it out and people say it is for at
least Idea.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Do you ever just want of did you ever just
want to be like man, I wrote this song, you
know the formul with the foremans, let's put it out, man.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
I think honestly, I was so like I was so
over my career or like music after the Gunshy record
didn't like make my life any easier. It just fell
on make men. I don't know. I don't know what
else I can do, because I was like, this album

(52:27):
is awesome and I can't really do anything better than this,
and it's current, it sounds current. It's like all of
my friends volunteer that they love it. I'm not asking them,
and I'm just getting texts like it's like, so I
don't know, and it's not like I'm not making there's

(52:49):
no opportunities coming to me, so I don't know what
to do. And so I was just kind of like,
this is heartbreaking, and I think I probably experience I've
had like a delayed experience of what it's probably like
for people trying to get started, right, which is like,

(53:11):
what's a guy gotta do? What's a girl got to do?
Like I'm doing the best thing I know how to do.
What's the trick it's being received, what's the And I
think I just I don't And maybe at this point
it's just like, dude, you've got to be grateful for
like the fact that it even happened ever, and that

(53:31):
there is an audience and that they want to they
want to hear the old stuff, but they're also curious
about what you're doing now. So but all I have
to say, I think I was not in any for
a while long time. It was not in any kind
of like I wasn't eager to like get on the
carousel again.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Let's let's go down that path for just a second.
What do you think brought you out of that?

Speaker 1 (53:55):
My wife, we we've only been married. We got married
in late.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Were you on like the verge of giving up music?

Speaker 1 (54:05):
I think I was. You felt you felt.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
That little like glimmer of I don't know if I
should keep going?

Speaker 1 (54:11):
Yeah, for sure, totally. I was like I don't know
how to do. I don't know what else to do.
I don't know how financially it like is this smart
for me to do this? Honestly? And it kind of
happened after this record too, where where I'm just judging
myself pretty harshly thinking that, you know, because because we

(54:38):
can always find somebody who's like winning, you know, and to.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Like especially in Nashville. Yeah, living here is not easy
for I mean, even if you have whatever success is, yes,
you're still gonna have people, especially in Nashville, that are
doing more than you.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
Yeah, so, and there's always going to be the temptation
to compare up, right, like we very rarely compare down.
It's just like a weird human thing that we like
want like gluttons for punishment or something at least I am,
I like want to feel bad about myself or something.
So so yeah, I definitely. I think for the last

(55:26):
these last two records did this thing where I was
just making it for me. It's like what I wanted
to do. I wasn't thinking about it being commercially. I
kind of like gave up on having some like commercial
hit or something. But then you just can't I can't help.

(55:46):
But like after I put something out, have expectations that
it is going to do something, you know what I mean.
And so now I look back at what what Gunshy
did and I'm like, dude, Gunshy was did great stream
I mean I had like it's like several of the songs,
like several you know, million, like a million, like a

(56:09):
couple of million streams. I'm like, what was I complaining about?
Like this album is like the top streaming song is
Rosalie and it's like a couple hundred thousand, which you
know sure is more than more than some of my peers,
or like more than a lot of people. Great, but

(56:30):
when you when I start thinking about like the financial
viability of that, like can it's just hard to like
make that a viable business because you know, what is it?
A million streams is roughly thirty five hundred dollars maybe
four thousand bucks, And I'm a long way from having

(56:54):
a million streams even collectively, I think, at least on
Spotify now. So yeah, it's definitely I've had to kind
of Oh and you also asked what was it that
brought me into one of your wife? So so, so

(57:16):
Annie was hearing some of the stuff that I had written,
Like I wrote that song something to hold on To,
and I pitched it to the band Camino, who had
become friends of mine, and I pitched them just the
chorus without verses, and we wrote a couple of times

(57:37):
together and they loved that chorus, and so they wrote verses.
So as I'm like meeting, as I'm like getting to
know Annie and I'm like trying to be impressive, I'm
like playing her stuff that I've written stuff I'm working on,
and she like loves you know, some of these songs,
like you know, even like like Rosalie or something, and
she like in general is like loved and loves my music.

(58:01):
And there's another thing that I another thing. It was
rattling in my head just like at one point like
a mentor something said. Somebody said to me, like writers, right,
So if you're saying that you are a songwriter, like
you have to be you have to write, you know,
like that's what it's in the job description, right, it

(58:24):
is fully the job description, right, song right, write songs.
So with her kind of blessing and encouragement and belief,
I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this again,
and and I just like committed myself to the process
and it was really fun. It was early in our marriage.

(58:46):
She was building kate baking business, so she was downstairs
baking and I was upstairs writing songs. And at lunch
I would come down and we would have lunch together.
And on the best days, I was like just juiced
on an idea that I was. I was juiced on cake.
I was just amped about like we you know, I

(59:09):
was amped about what you know, the the song that
I was trying. I was trying to crack the code
on upstairs and then and she was it baked something
and that, and she was pumped about it, and it
was just like this really fun, creative, like a live time.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
It's so good to have someone who's a champion for you, yes,
because you can't you know, like early on, when we're young,
we can totally uh, our ego will champion us. Yeah,
but over time it starts to fade and you're like,
it's true, man, I really need somebody to to believe
in me. Kick me in the button, say you're not

(59:51):
as bad as you think you are.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
Whatever I know you want to you like, I need it. Yeah,
And she's done that for me, and I think, yeah,
so she just and it was ended up being a
record that, like largely a lot of the songs were
about the first you know, a couple of years of

(01:00:13):
our life together. That's you know, necessary it was for her.
Keep Going is like one hundred percent just about like
it is was my a song that I needed to hear.

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
It's about like just you know, you just put one
foot in front of the other. And that song was
written on a on a keyboard and then that was
actually the first tune that that Micah and I worked
to decide like this is what this was like a
trial of like would we worked well together? And that

(01:00:51):
was this song that he essentially picked, like let's do
this one great. So it was cool to hear how
that took a totally different shape. It's very cool.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
I told you this week, and you don't have to
do this, but I think you should probably think about
it releasing those four songs as work tapes, because those
work tapes are very cool, cool, And I wouldn't say
that if they were like real trashy, yeah you know
what I mean, like they didn't make sense. But that's
my opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Well, hey, you are a work tape pro at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
I just love I'm just a nerd about it. I
want to hear the like the beginning thing, like that's
where the passion comes out, and the production that can
happen too. But I still feel like sometimes a song
gets lost in production, no matter how good it is.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
I know it's true. There's there's like, aren't there some
stories about well, I know, Nebraska, oh Man and living
with ghosts Patty Griffin. I think both of those records
were essentially what it'll say you need. Did they just
put out right?

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Yes, Nebraska is in like you could take all of
his other records out, and that that record is just
like sit down with it and with headphones or put
it on vinyl.

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
It's just ridiculous. I need to do it. There's nothing
to it, and I've kind of wondered songs and you know,
you hear like a record like for Emma Forever Ago,
like the Bonny of Era records. Yeah, and it's so
simple and sparse too, but it's like I think those

(01:02:30):
type of records are like a north star for me,
and that like it's probably the most important thing for
me that like emotion is communicated.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Yeah, well, there's a there's a there's an element of
and this is something that AI will never be able
to do, which is like I'm not exclusively out here
listening to like acoustic vocal words. Yes, yeah, on my
off time. I love records, I love songs, I love production,

(01:03:01):
but there's a there's a humanists and a rawness that
comes out, like when you don't have every note perfected
and you're still kind of figuring out this song, but
you're excited. You can tell you can hear it in
the voice where like the artists or the writer is
excited about this. Yes they're onto something, right and then

(01:03:24):
they've got the you hear that, you know, and.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
It's just so great. Well, and that was that was
a big that was an issue with when we went
to re record something to hold on to, because my
wife was like, don't change it, yeah, like just put
that out.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
I was like, it's not how it works, you know,
like a man's plaining that, you know. But there was
like I think by that by the time that I
did go into record, like I listened to that and
I made the demo of that song, which I know
isn't on your list or you know you haven't heard
you haven't heard the work tape of it. But I'm

(01:04:03):
not very proficient in logic or pro tools or anything else,
and I'm not I'm not good enough at like a
good enough player to to like that just takes me
so long typically so, but like on rare occurrences, I will,
you know, flush something out, and I did. For something
to hold on to, I was like nursing a broken heart.

(01:04:24):
It was the last broken heart that I would have
before I met my wife, and it's like so palpable,
but it's a very it's a very like emotional angsty song,
and I just wanted to make sure that was like

(01:04:44):
also communicated in the recording, and we ended up like
borrowing a lot of this stuff from what I did
you know to I think Micah's great about that too.
He's like, this is working for me, so let's just
whether it's like a weird sample that was in there
or like parts that I had that I had. I

(01:05:07):
think we like literally flew some guitar stuff and he's
just not precious about it. And that's that's what's cool
about him too, is that he's like, yeah, lean into
what you want as well. Speaking of Rosalie, like the
kazoo solo on the Bridge, I mean we like literally
like used that from the work tape. The work tape

(01:05:28):
is real jangly like high strong guitars. And I can't
remember whose idea. I'll go ahead and give Micah the
credit for like the idea of like playing it and
ding on. I think it was like a rubber bridge guitar.
And if I would have had my way on this record,

(01:05:50):
and I'm so thankful that he didn't let me because
of the moment that we were in. Every song would
have been on a rubber bridge guitar, but thankfully he
like showed restraint there and he.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Has muted muted strings and contact Mike's.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
Yes, yes, so it is there on some of the songs,
but it's not like hopefully it won't be such a
like time stamp that it won't feel like something that
you could listen to in ten years. But yeah, the
I had Melissa Fuller, my friend, songwriter friend who also

(01:06:27):
is like a great singer, come in and like sing
backing vocals onveral of the songs, and she she sang
on Rosalie, and Micah kept like Micah was had this
character kind of like what he wanted this backing vocalist
to sound like h and he was like coaching her
and like, Okay, it's like this this this is who,

(01:06:50):
this is the character you're playing as you're seeing the song,
and like she totally nailed it, and yeah, it's just
that this got so much energy. It still kind of
feels very like to me, like Paul Simony, and I'm
not like somebody who knows Paul Simon's music well enough

(01:07:10):
to like, but it gives me the same kind of
like energy a Paul Simon song. Yeah, I can hear that,
but yeah, I don't know what else? What else do
you want to know about that? About that?

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
What I want to know song is what you think?
Give me like two minutes on this. Like you mentioned
about streaming and stuff, and this is a topic that
keeps coming up. As an independent artist. You're not with
a major labeler. No, you're not on a label right now. No,
So what is your take on this, like the whole

(01:07:45):
streaming thing, because you you already said the numbers and
the yeah, like it doesn't it's not a viable financial.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
I'm sad.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Yeah, I'm like we talked, you know, our mutual friend
th Cockroll was on and we got into it with him. Yeah,
and I get the feeling and I think I can
speak for him on this, like he wants to sink
the boat. Yeah yeah yeah, But what is your take?
Like where my take is and where's it going?

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
Do you think?

Speaker 5 (01:08:20):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
Man, that's too hard. I feel like I feel like
I am when it comes to things that just feel
like big things. I just I'm just observing and I
kind of like reserve comment only because I'm like, we're

(01:08:42):
I don't know, we're in it. And I think sometimes
anybody that I don't know, I wonder if people that
have predictions or are able to like articulate in the
moment what this means, are just like really looking to
try to like for control of something that they don't have.

(01:09:05):
And the reality is is like it's chaos right now.
It's something that well, and I'm I'm forty, I'm almost
forty six years old, and I've had a career for
over twenty years, so it looks a lot different than
it did when I started. Now, I don't know that

(01:09:25):
eighteen seventeen year old kids are complaining about what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
Why is that I have a theory, but I want
to know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Well, it's like what they know. And I just don't
want to be I don't want to be the old
person complaining about how like about the good old days? Yeah,
Like I want to be someone who's adaptable, who's open
to like rolling with the punches. And I also don't

(01:09:54):
think I'm entitled to any I'm not entitled to continue
to have a career, had a great one. That doesn't
mean that I get to get to keep having one
and no one. I'm not I've not been promised. This
is like, this is I'm like living the dream. Dude,
I'm living the dream. Kidding me. I woke up this morning,

(01:10:18):
I didn't have to go to work anywhere. I exercised,
came home, played with my son, put them down for nap,
and then I came here like, uh yeah, I'm like
any day, Like every day I get to do this
is like bonus.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
Sure, But if you want to keep doing it, do
you feel like something needs to change.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
I've got to adapt. You have to adapt. I have
to adapt that. What does that mean? That means that, well,
for me, I have a rental property, I have a
commercial side project, other incomes, other income I have. I

(01:11:04):
am basically like totally out operating outside of the music industry.
I don't I have a booking agent, but that's it.
I do like a lot of show, private shows in
fans backyards. It honestly harkens back to the beginning of
my career where I was like scrappy and I was

(01:11:25):
just trying to figure out how to make it work.
So in some ways, I'm like I'm just I'm in
that spot again. And now, yeah, I can be angry
about the fact that, like I've spent twenty four years
doing something that has gotten me zero job security, and

(01:11:47):
I can say, like, man if I would have, you know,
but like there's no job, there's no job security anywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
No, no, there's no real security in life, major label
publishing all this stuff because how many guys have I
talked to? People I've talked to that have been dropped
eighty times in their career right, and they're still just
like what you're saying, have to be scrappy and figure
it out.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
You either do or you go sell real estate, you know,
which which like is a legit option of course, and
you know, and I took honestly, like at the beginning
of this year, it took a couple of days to
like I went out to his cabin, which I have

(01:12:31):
done for the last like seven or eight years, except
for last year when we had a newborn, and just
like reflect on the year that the previous year and
like the one ahead, and I had to like do
some reckoning on like what do I what am I
going to do this year? And what do I what
do I want to do? And I realized that a

(01:12:55):
lot of the voices that were kind of like I
was listening to in my head that were like really
kind of judge judgmental and condemning and critical of like
my career. We're just it's like my own thoughts about it,
and that like nobody else is thinking that, or if

(01:13:17):
they are, I'm not aware of it, and I honestly
ultimately like should like can't concern myself with what someone
else thinks about my career. The reality is it's like
my career is still viable, We're still able, but between
all the little things that we've got going on, it

(01:13:38):
still makes sense for me to do this as long
as I enjoy doing it and it brings me to
like I want my children to see me, see me
laboring in joy and like doing work that I love
and that I get lost in, and like that would

(01:13:59):
be that be like a huge win if they get
to see me working on things that I love, you know,
and and and invigorated at the end of a day
instead of like sitting down on the couch and like
turning on the TV and just like zoning out. So
I like, there's so much upside now, but yeah, it's uh,

(01:14:27):
it feels like I'm in a foreign country. Yes, I
don't know, like the language, I don't know the currency.
I don't so I'm just kind of like, well what
I what do I know? I'll just do this.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
Do you think the currency this is what I think?
Do you think or agree with this statement? Do you
think the currency is attention?

Speaker 1 (01:14:51):
Now? Oh, it's got to be. Yeah, over money.

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):
It's got to be because if a million streams equals
thirty five hundred dollars or whatever, that's not a lot
of money for a million streams. And you used to
be able to sell a million albums and that that
meant something financially.

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
So yeah, so go further on the currency being attention.
We're settling for attention, attention versus an income, yeah, versus
producing a business off of what you're doing. Oh and
maybe the reason why young people are satisfied with it
is because they're getting attention social media. Yep. It's all

(01:15:31):
about numbers. It's all about the dopamine.

Speaker 4 (01:15:34):
Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
We're settling for addiction. Well, and and the and the
truth is that's something that I like, you know, I've
got to be I've got to score up to too.

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
It's like, hey, yeah, you it's all of us. I
don't mean just kids, but it's we're all settling. Yeah,
and it's not it's not the easy path to do
something like that is doing or some of the other
indie artists that are like I do have to adapt
if I want to keep making an income at this Yep,
I've got to figure something out. Got to figure something out,

(01:16:05):
and I've got to appeal to my fan base not
everyone else.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
Because it is the music business. Yes, you know. And
and now what you said, like, would I still write
songs if I wasn't Like, yeah, I would, But right
now I'm like, as long as I'm trying to participate
in the music business, there is there are considerations that

(01:16:29):
have to be factored in that, like, this is a business.
How is your business? What is the health of your business?
What does it actually look like? And are like are
you comfortable with the you know, what's being asked for
you asked of you in order to you know, make
that income. I own all my masters, I own all

(01:16:52):
my publishing. I have a big email list from years
of doing this. There are things that are in there
are I thinks some things in place that make it
possible for me to. And I've always kind of like
I've always had a strong connection with my fans. It's

(01:17:14):
like the way it might be the thing that like
afforded me a career from the beginning is like I
like really strove to like connect with people and as
a music fan, like first, like I just I feel
like there's a there's a common there's like commonality in

(01:17:37):
me and someone who likes my music because like I'm
I know, I know what it's like. I love music
and so yeah, I wouldn't know how to tell somebody
to start a career today. I feel like totally out
on what like what it is. I'm personally just trying

(01:18:01):
to like come back to the basics of like all right,
well then like what what is it that makes you you?
And that's smart? How can you like and then what
do you want to do with that?

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
And it keeps it authentic as well because your fan
your fans are going to be able to sniff the
bs of let me try to get with like whatever
the cultural norms or whatever the kids are listening to
these days or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
Then you're you know, and I've wondered, like, you know,
is there is there like some amount that you can do,
just like it's like whise to like you know, have
some kind of commercial like be thinking sure a little
bit about like the commercial.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
Yeah, if you can do it, if you can do
it and it's authentic, I still think it's got to
be just start rank kids songs.

Speaker 1 (01:18:53):
Dude, well, and I don't have the energy. I don't
have the energy to hustle like I did when I
was when I was twenty, and you're gonna two little ones.
It's like a whole thing. It's a thing, and I'm like,
I'm not gonna, like I can't do anything but be
me because it just takes too much energy. So yeah,
I'm I think as far as the music industry is concerned,

(01:19:13):
like I don't know, but I kind of feel like
I'm operating just outside of it. Yeah, uh, and I am.
I am curious about what you know, what that did.
I think there's some version of that that could be
interesting in terms like you know, selling selling a vinyl
for like one hundred bucks or more than normal and

(01:19:38):
keeping it off the streaming. My my issue with it
is like, you know, I actually want people to listen
to my music, right and that's that's that's tough to
ask people to do something, to like start a new
behavior by you know, if you're the only one doing it.
And so if there was an like my wife has

(01:20:00):
a great had a great idea for I think it's
kind of cool. Like you know how substack, you know,
substack the email platform, and I have a substack, and
you can subscribe to my substack. You can either be
a free subscriber and get whatever posts I earmark is
like you can read all of this, or you can

(01:20:22):
be a paid subscriber and you can get all of it.
And what if what if Spotify allowed for rights holders
to essentially like charge for subscriptions to their songs and

(01:20:42):
that could be for a given period of time, So
like in this in the case of like let's say
with Thad's record, he could have his old stuff on
there that's like fully available, and maybe on this new
record he could like have two songs that are that
are you know, available for everybody's stream. But if you

(01:21:03):
want to, like if you want the whole thing, if
you want the whole catalog, it's going to cost you
like two bucks three bucks a month. Maybe I don't
know what the number is. But it's all done within
the app that everybody's already using anyway, and not granted
like I would say, you know, major labels probably would

(01:21:24):
not be would not put any restrictions or paywalls up on.
But like for people like us, who you know, are
who probably need it, it could be an interesting way
to lie, interesting to have a little more injection of cash.
But then you're asking people to pay more, right, and

(01:21:49):
they're already spending more on They're already spending more on
music now than they ever have as a whole. Like
most people didn't spend ten dollars a month on music.
You know, people weren't buying a CD every month of
the year, like maybe you and I were. I definitely
was okay, but like the average person, Yeah, my mom

(01:22:12):
right was not. And she's a Spotify subscriber. She pays
whatever twelve ninety nine whatever it is now a month.
So there's there's like more people, there's people are spending
more money all music than they ever have.

Speaker 2 (01:22:26):
It's interesting. I'm going to be really interested to look
back on this in like ten years and see these
conversations like well, we were idiots or like oh we
were onto something.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
Well, and the thing is it's it's like I don't
know that it's going to go backward now, you know,
like because we just have more tech. Yeah, it's it's
like more text coming. Like I think the genies out
of the bottle. They're you know, like the toothpaste is
out of it. I just don't know. In some ways too,

(01:22:57):
I think about like how many think think back to
like the eighties and like or seventies, how many people
were allowed to have a career at music, right, Like,
oh yeah, not many so now because the barrier to
entry is like solow comes. All everything you need is

(01:23:18):
on the new laptop that you buy. You can build
your career on YouTube. You can have to put it
on you don't even have to put on Spotify. So
there is like a corrections like there there's probably more
people making a living than in the seventies and eighties
and nineties, but I just don't know that everybody can,

(01:23:42):
like not everybody that does this gets to do it,
And I'm not I don't have a problem with that.
And I also don't have a problem with like it's
just normal life, that's just life. I'm also totally fine
with like, yeah, dude, you're old, get out of the way.
It's like it's somebody else's term. It's rare to find
anybody thirty years into the career, forty years in the

(01:24:06):
career still making compelling music. And I'm not even saying
that I am, you know what I mean, Like, I'm
not saying like it's rare, and look at what I'm doing.
I'm saying like, this is the natural progression of an artist.
Is it? Like you get to a place and you
get comfortable, and it's hard to write. It's hard to

(01:24:29):
write compelling music. Yes, So I just, you know, I
don't know. I think there's a couple of things happening
at the same time. For me and some of my friends.
We're all like of a certain age. Now, we've had
we've had certain you know, length of careers, and in
the industry is also majorly disruptive, and so I think

(01:24:54):
there's a bunch of us who are like, what which
way's up? What do we do? Yeah? And it's exciting
and terrifying and and it's life, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
Last question, Yes, ready, this is a one word answer.
If you can do it. If you can do it, Okay,
no one can. But I'm gonna you can go listen
to one record as if you've heard it again for
the first time.

Speaker 1 (01:25:24):
What is it You're gonna have to edit out all
of this quiet? I don't know. It's dramatic pause. There's
so many Oh my gosh, you are a mean spirited person.
I am dude, I'm good at being mean. Well, let's

(01:25:53):
just say I think it would be I think.

Speaker 2 (01:25:56):
You're you have to settle that thriller. Thriller. Going right
back to the top of this episode, it's called a
call back my friend.

Speaker 1 (01:26:05):
That's right. Thriller. Yeah. I love that answer.

Speaker 2 (01:26:10):
It informed your childhood.

Speaker 1 (01:26:16):
But bad is but Bad's amazing. That's amazing. Bad was
I was like in I was like in fourth or
fifth grade and dude black or white? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:26:30):
Man?

Speaker 2 (01:26:31):
And uh that was on danger That was it? That
was dangerous? Bad was bad? Mm hmm what was bad on?

Speaker 1 (01:26:44):
What was was p y t on bad? I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (01:26:49):
Yeah, anyway, thriller, thriller. Final answer, Matt Wortz, thanks for
being Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:26:57):
Man. What do you have coming up? I am well,
I have a I'm dropping and I'm dropping a new
sun or actually I don't know if it's sunner or daughter.
I'm dropping a new baby my wife. We're not we're
not dropping babies, dropping babies. We're not shaking babies. We're
not dropping babies. But that'll be in July. So I'm

(01:27:18):
I'm trying to play as many backyard shows as possible
between now and June. We should do one here with
What's Great. Yeah, we'll talk about it. Trying to play
as much as possible so I can make as much
money so that I can be present for my family.

Speaker 2 (01:27:42):
Well, it's very lucky that you got to make an
appearance on this show.

Speaker 1 (01:27:46):
It's just gonna do nothing but bring your money and fame, dude,
That's what I'm here for, man, cring it, Bring it on.

Speaker 2 (01:27:56):
Work Tapes is produced by me Brandon Carswalk Filming and
ed by Sean Carswell special thanks to Matt Works. You
can find more info on Matt at mattworks dot com.
Like and subscribe to Work Tapes everywhere you listen to
your favorite podcast

Speaker 4 (01:28:22):
Babels