August 28, 2025 • 51 mins
Shelby Means is one of the foremost bassists in modern bluegrass. From her GRAMMY-winning work with Molly Tuttle & Golden Highway, to her travels with the GRAMMY-nominated band Della Mae, her career has spanned nearly two decades crossing more than 20 countries. She’s also an accomplished songwriter and vocalist, just released her first self tilted solo album this year. In episode 68 of Worktapes we discuss a song she wrote called, “Streets Of Boulder” and listen to the Worktape.
Find Shelby
Listen to Streets Of Boulder
Worktapespodcast.com
Worktapes is Produced by Brandon Carswell
Film & Editing by Brandon Carswell & Quinn Chowaniec
Additional Production Assistance by Jonas Litton
This episode was filmed at Sound Stage Studios in Nashville, TN
Episode intro music written by Brandon Carswell & produced by Micah Tawlks - "Back To Us"
Cover Art by Mid Century Western
Worktapes show logos designed by Harrison Hudson
**All songs used by permission**
Find Shelby
Listen to Streets Of Boulder
Worktapespodcast.com
Worktapes is Produced by Brandon Carswell
Film & Editing by Brandon Carswell & Quinn Chowaniec
Additional Production Assistance by Jonas Litton
This episode was filmed at Sound Stage Studios in Nashville, TN
Episode intro music written by Brandon Carswell & produced by Micah Tawlks - "Back To Us"
Cover Art by Mid Century Western
Worktapes show logos designed by Harrison Hudson
**All songs used by permission**
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Work Tapes. This is a podcast where we
tear up our songs. Why with the song written? What's
it about? What's the context and emotion behind it? Where
were you at the time, what were you going through?
How did certain lines come to you? What's the inspiration?
How long did it take to write? I'm Brandon Carswell
and I'm fascinated with songwriting and how songs are built
(00:30):
from the ground up. It's easy to hear a full
production song on the radio and dismiss its origin story.
I want to hear the rough draft of the song
or the work tape. I want to explore the very beginning,
how songs that move us and make us move our more.
(00:52):
Welcome to work Tapes everyone, I'm Brandon Carswell. As usual,
today's guest is one of the foremost bassist and modern
bluegrass From her Grammy winning work with Molly Tuttle and
Golden Highway to her travels with a Grammy nominated band,
Dell May, her career has spanned nearly two decades, crossing
more than twenty countries. She's an accomplished songwriter and vocalist
(01:17):
just released her first self titled solo album Today, We're
going to talk about a song called Streets of Boulder
and listen to that work tape. Welcome to work tape,
Shelby means thank you. How you doing. It's nice to
meet you.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Nice to meet you too. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
On, Thanks for coming. You are a bass player primarily,
that's right, That's what I think. Most people probably know
you from playing with Molly and the Golden Highway. Give
us some of that background before we dive into songwriting. Yeah,
(01:55):
because I think that it's really interesting how everyone's songwriting
story and this tound is different. No, I mean everyone
is so different, and a lot of times I find
that an instrument is the first thing that appeals to somebody,
(02:16):
like as a child or even in later years, and
then they get into songwriting. Sometimes it's the opposite where
they start with songs. What was your experience with that?
What led you? Let's start with what led you into
playing bass?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Great? Yeah, in the first place, Yeah, my dad plays
the banjo and the guitar, and in the bluegrass tradition,
it's very community oriented and the songs are passed down orally,
so you get together and you play music with friends.
(02:53):
And so my dad was a good organizer, and my
mom helped by cooking, so they would host little jam
sessions at our house. And when I was growing up
and I flirted with a few different instruments. I tried
fiddle when I was five, tried viola in fifth grade.
I also started singing in choir in fifth grade and
(03:17):
never stopped singing. But fiddle was too hard, Fiola I
didn't love. My dad said, the next instrument you learn,
you need to learn guitar, because you have to know
some chords. Even if you don't play the guitar in
a jam, you can look around and see what chords
the other people are playing on guitar and know how
(03:37):
to how to fit into the song. So that was
his wise advice. So I learned a little guitar. And
then when I I guess I was thirteen or so,
and I saw a woman playing the bass at a contest,
and that just I couldn't stop staring at her or
(03:59):
her hands hurt the way she plucked the string an
uprightingre yea and that drew me in. How old I
think I was? Thirteen? But well, I didn't tell my
parents that I wanted to play the bass for a
while until I guess. I had an outburst in typical
(04:20):
teenage fashion at the dinner table one night and I
just said, I guess you don't want me to play
the bass because you haven't gotten me one yet, And
they were like, what, you want to play the bass? Wow?
How did we miss that? So they said since since
I had tried so many different instruments and not stuck
with them, they said, the bass is kind of a commitment.
(04:44):
You know, we're not just going to buy you a
bass out of the blue. Want to see if you
like it first. So they suggested I call up the
Junior High school orchestra and see if they had one
that I could borrow there. So that was my first base.
I borrowed it from the Junior High Orchestra.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
That meant being meaning it's more expensive.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And it's yes, it's expensive and big.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Okay, yeah, it's going to take up a lot of space.
Another yeah, yeah, that's cool. So you were thirteen when
you when you started on bass. Before that, did you
have any interest in songwriting any You said you were singing.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
So I think very casual, like just as a little kid,
just I would make up songs. I don't remember them.
But I just I was always singing and humming and
singing words that weren't necessarily songs.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Do you did you write any when you were young,
like as a kid, do you have like do you
remember your first song?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I don't remember, you don't know, I wish I did.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Do you remember the first song that you remember writing?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Well?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
I tried. I think I really started trying to write
songs in high school. At that time. I had a
very intense editor voice, though, and so I never thought
anything was good enough. Okay, So I have little scraps
of things I started. I tried to write a song
about my grandpa. I think that's the first song I
(06:14):
really tried to write.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, and I never didn't finish it.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
No, I never liked it.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Okay, So do you feel like what I'm getting after
is like what was your dream and music? Did was
the dream that I want to be in a band,
I want to play with a group of people, or
did you want to be you want to be the spotlight?
I don't mean that shallow, I.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Just no, No, I think definitely my dream moving to Nashville.
I wanted to so. Growing up in Wyoming and the
Colorado area, I was in a few different bands, and
I love being in a band. I think the bass
is a its role is not to be in the spotlight.
(07:02):
It's a supportive instrument. And I like having friends around.
So I didn't move to Nashville really with like stars
in my eyes and like I'm going to go out
and you know, write the songs and make the records.
That was I didn't even really realize that I did
(07:23):
have a dream when I was a little kid that
I wanted to join the Chicks. Okay, but I was
so young that I still had my baby teeth and
I auditioned and they loved me in my dream. But
this is like a literal dream auditions, they loved me,
and what they said they couldn't hire me because I
(07:44):
still had some baby teeth.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
So, yeah, I wanted to join the Chicks, you know,
I loved.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
That's an interesting dream, like a literal dream that you had, Yes,
And did you find yourself wanting to be This is
interesting as your story progress is just of the little
bit that I know, did you want to be like
you wanted to be an all girl band kind of thing?
Was that in your subconscious.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Guess it must have been. Yeah, I certainly couldn't join
joining in all. I mean, I could never be in
an all male band. But why not, Well, I mean,
I guess because I'm a woman, and that would change it.
Then it wouldn't be an all male band. Got I
like a lot of the bands I was in growing up.
(08:33):
I was well one, I was the only girl, but
I did a little bit of filling in for hit
just a couple of bands, and they all had a
mix of women and men playing. I think it's really
nice to have a balance like that.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Sure, but.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Let's see, I kind of lost the thread of urart.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
It's okay when you got with a.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Oh my dream kind of coming to Nashville. I wanted
to get better at playing music. That was my dream.
I wanted to be surrounded by people who were better
than me so that I could level up. And that's
all I thought, really when I up.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
To What was the goal in getting better?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I think I listened to the Grand Ole Opry when
I was growing up, and I wanted to play on
the Opry for sure, just I don't know. Once I
got here, I started going to the jams and meeting people,
and then I got swept up in touring gigs and
(09:47):
playing with bands and going on the road, and I
think that sort of became the dream, Like, you know,
the dream which I didn't realize that I wanted, was
like riding around in a bus with a band, yeah,
and going to play for thousands of people. Right, I
love performing before.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Do you prefer playing live versus studio work or is
it all the same for you?
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Well?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Actually, I was talking to my friend about this. The
difference it's for me. There's a big difference. On stage,
I'm just the acting kind of involved in performing is
really fun for me, and there's an energetic exchange from
the crowd to the performers and back in the studio.
(10:37):
It's a little bit more like the more relaxed I
can be, the better on stage. Like the sometimes like
the bigger the gestures or the more energy you put out,
the more the crowd kind of gives back. And it's
that sort of thing. But in a recording session, if
you're kind of like tense and trying to perform, I
(10:59):
feel like the right it's not going to be as good.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
There's like a little more science in a session than
there is live. Yeah, because once you get to the
live show. You've already sussed out.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
All your parts exactly, so then you just get to play, right.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
That's fun.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, No, I like both. I don't think there's a
I've done a lot more live performance than I have
studio recording, but I really like doing both things.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
As you moved into more songwriting, did traveling help you
with that that it's that influence your ability to write
a different kind of lyric.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I think the experiences that I gained from all the
travel and performing and meeting people across the world certainly
inspired me in a creative way to write about those
experiences and things I witnessed where we don't speak this
(12:00):
same language but feel the same feelings, right, I think
that's really cool. And I think that something about melody
is really powerful because you can really communicate feelings and
emotions through I think melodies and chords, so you don't
(12:23):
necessarily have to know the language to get the vibe,
and that's important I think for my songwriting.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think it's really cool. Like
all the bands that you're in, it's cool that of
what I've seen you mentioned being more of like the bases,
like a support system for the band and that's true.
But sometimes there are bands where each player is their
(12:53):
own star, so to speak. And I think that of
the groups that you've been with that that feels like
each member is it is their own I don't know
how to how to phrase that exactly, but because you
were talking about leveling up and then you're you've made
this new record which I want to talk to you
(13:15):
about also, But that's that's kind of what it takes,
is each member of the band, like you're not just
in the band for someone else. Like when I watch
live videos of y'all, it feels very much like a unit,
you know, like but each person is also shining. Does
(13:39):
that make sense?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yes? Yes?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Can you kind of speak to that and how you work,
uh with the other people that you work with and
what what that? How you guys come up with songs?
Are you co writing with those bands?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I starting back to to my first bands here Della
may I was not I was writing songs then, but
they kind of had the writers in a way for
that band I joined after. The bass players are always changing.
(14:19):
I don't know, I don't know what that is, but
it does feel like in bands there's always like the
bass players shifting a little bit. So I came in
and there's too many jokes about basically yes, well if
at least in bluegrass we have the banjo players to
pick on, there you go. But I so, I wasn't
(14:42):
involved much in writing in that band, but I I did.
I still love arranging and harmony singing and that is
you know, you're writing parts in a way, so creatively,
that was a good way to work with that band.
And when I joined, we were getting ready to make
(15:05):
a record with Brian Sutton producing, and he came up
did some pre production and then we got into the
studio and that was totally an amazing process to be
a part of. That was my first real studio recording
with a producer, and that was such a learning experience,
(15:30):
learning how to work with each other when we've been
performing for a while, but then getting into the studio
putting everything under a microscope, it's really intense. So it
was a good learning experience in that way. And then
after Dela May, I did Sally and George, which is
my duo project with my husband, and that was a
(15:53):
lot more co writing and since it was just the
two of us, we each had a lot more freedom
to say things and to write songs and bring songs
to the table and range and all that. But then
it was just the two of us doing all the work.
So it was, Yeah, there's a lot involved in that.
(16:15):
But I think I started honing my co writing then,
and we were living in Nashville and would get together
with Nashville songwriters and do three way co writes and
just a lot of those turned out really good. I've
worked with Melody Walker and Robbie Heckt, and I really
enjoy co writing, and it's there's something about having constraints,
(16:40):
like we're here, we're in this space, but we want
to leave, so we want to finish with something right,
So just like trying to get through and finish.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah, there's something I was listening to or reading while
I was listening to Jeff Tweety's book about I Forget
what It's called now, about songwriting and how sometimes he'll
purposefully set limits for himself and he'll say, oh, I
have an extra five minutes before lobby call or whatever.
Let me see what I can get done in five
(17:12):
minutes before I go downstairs. And I've that's such an
interesting kind of project to set for yourself and having
those deadlines. I write a lot of solo songs or
by myself, so I don't it's easy not to finish something.
(17:32):
It's easy to go out. I can't think of this
right the second, so I'll just put it down for
a while. Yeah, which is sometimes good too.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
For me, especially the songs on my record. Some of
them were complete in my notebooks, and others sat for years.
But I really liked them. I really liked what I had.
I just and I had such high expectations for what
the rest of the song like. It had to stand
up to that first verse that I wrote, So it
(18:02):
took me years to finish and different, and I remember working,
especially on high planes, wyoming like over and over, trying
and trying to match the first verse. And I finally
found like two other verses that I'd written were like, whoa,
those are good? I like them. Yeah, okay, shit, Now
(18:23):
what do I do for the chorus?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Sorry?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I don't know if Oh, you're fine, You're fine, no apologies?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Do you do you?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
As far as Kraft goes, do you like the craft
of songwriting more than playing bass? Are you enamored with
bass or or are they kind of one in the
same feeding each other.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Hmm. That's such a good question, I think hmm. I
think like it is interesting. The physical aspect of playing
the bass is becoming more and more challenging to me
as I get old older. It's it's so I think
possibly where I've leaned on the bass as my crutch,
(19:07):
like my go to it's my how I get gigs
and that sort of thing. Songwriting isn't like a physical process,
but you still need the tools and the technical aspects
like you would with the bass. So I feel like,
I don't know, I might. I think it's been bass
and possibly songwriting may start to take over going forward.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Well you well, I mean if that happens, are you
going to miss bass?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I never want to quit playing the bas.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Smaller one, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
They have quarter size and they're smaller. They're so cute.
They still sound really good. Probably easier to fly with,
easier to fit in a car, and you have to buy.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Plane tickets to carry your base around or you can.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
You know, my bass has a bolt on neck.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Oh cool, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So if I fly, I have to loosen the strings,
pull out the endpin, take the bridge off, and then
unbolt the neck. And that comes completely off and then
they all fit fits in this travel case. It's hard.
Oh that's wid, but it does cost sometimes, depending on
the airline, it can cost more than the ticket.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
I know nothing about upright. I've messed with them and
I'm like, I can't do this. I'll just take the
p bass all day. That's just easy. Yeah, so True,
So True has the sound as far as bluegrass goes.
I think that you're one of my first guests that
are pretty exclusively bluegrass music. And I love bluegrass. A
(20:49):
lot of my family grew up on bluegrass and southern
gospel music, so I know it. I was around it.
I never have played it because I think that bluegrass
is such a technically difficult genre of music or that
comes to harmonies playing off each other, especially when it's real,
(21:12):
like the real deal stuff is especially live. They know
when and how far to walk up to the mic,
like if nothing's then I love that. Yeah, are there.
I'm always very curious, though, in any genre that someone
chooses or was chosen for them based on their upbringing,
(21:36):
what other genres influence you that might surprise your fans,
Like are you secretly a metal junkie? I want to know.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Like, I have a soft spot for old rock and
roll when I was in college. I think that was
my rebellion against my parents just country and bluegrass exclusively
listening to like Emma Lou, Harrison Flatt and Scrugs and
Alison Krause and Union Station growing up. When I got
(22:08):
into college, I was like, what is this led Zeppelin
all about?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
And I really did some deep diving there and in
found what do you know, like mandolin and and kind
of throw back to some roots music in their music,
and I loved that.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
And then he ends up working with Alison Krause making
one of the best records.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Ever serious, Like for me, that's just perfect. Yeah, But yeah,
I like I like rock and roll, rock and roll.
I love reggae also. It's really hard to listen to
but as a bass player, like difficult, yeah, really difficult
(22:53):
and completely different than bluegrass bass to try and stretch
my my mind a little bit and play reggae.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Have you ever been hired to play for something that's
not bluegrass? That was a super challenge.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
A lot of so upright. Bass was my first instrument,
and getting hired on electric is always it gets me
a little excited and like, Okay, how I got it?
Really got a practice, get your.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Leather jacket out, you're ready to go. I love that.
Let's talk about this song Streets of Boulder cool before
we talked to in depth about this and the work tape.
Take us through the story of Oh, I'm gonna make it.
(23:44):
I'm going to make a solo album. I'm going to
make my own record. What was that? Was that a
long time dream? Wasn't an epiphany that you had?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Why? Why do you want to do it? I, like
I said, I didn't move to Nashville necessarily to with
like a bag of songs, my guitar and try. I didn't.
I didn't have that like I'm gonna be a star
thing in my head. I just wanted to play music
with better musicians than myself, and I don't know. I
(24:20):
was touring with Molly Tuttle and Golden Highway, and when
I joined that band, it left my husband in a
spot where I wasn't available to play in our duo
as much, and so he was sort of scratching his
head thinking what am I gonna What am I gonna do?
(24:41):
And he had a batch of songs and he'd been
playing a lot with Maya Davitri and asked her if
she would produce a solo record for him. I'm not
sure what made him want to do it, but he
started the process and I thought that was really cool.
And I was also talking to Bronwyn Keith Hines a lot,
(25:05):
the fiddle player, and Molly Tuttle and Golden Highway, and
she had made a solo record a few years earlier
and it was all fiddle tunes, but she was saying,
I want to make a solo record, but this time
I think I'm gonna sing. And I was like, well,
that's really cool. I can sing. I have songs. So
(25:28):
it just Joel making his solo record and bron Win
doing hers, and then getting more comfortable with recording and
going into the studio with Molly and Jerry Douglas producing.
I just it got me thinking that I wanted to
do it, and I was also able to because I
was touring so much. I was just able to save money.
(25:51):
So it takes a lot of money to make a
good record. And I'm a perfectionist when it comes to
sound and songs, and just if I was going to
make a bluegrass record, I wanted it to be really good,
so I saved up money and and I enjoyed watching
Maya da Vitri produce Joel and thought that she could
(26:16):
do a good job. You know, I thought about Jerry
or Brian, the people that I'd worked with in the
past producing, but in the end, I wanted I wanted
Maya because I felt really comfortable with her as a
person and for me, like I was saying earlier, the
(26:37):
more relaxed I can be in the studio, the easier
I feel in the studio, the better I feel that
the product is. So I just tried to yees surround
myself with that ease, because I knew I would be
totally nervous going in and trying to play with sure.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I think that people that don't have that experience, like
even if you're around it or you've recorded before, but
it's not your songs and there it's not your session.
There's a lot of intimidation when you walk in the room,
even with a producer you're comfortable with. It's kind of like,
(27:17):
you know, even when you you write a song you
show it to someone, you're kind of wondering what they're
gonna think, and they you're gonna wear in your heart
on your sleeve. That happens in the studio, but it's
like it doesn't stop until you're done, and it's heavy, right. Yeah,
So to take that, you know, years of touring and
playing and supporting the artist who's actually who's writing the
(27:40):
songs or whatever, and doing your own thing, that's a
big deal. Yeah, and that's were you. Did you have
anxiety about that? Did you feel like, oh I belong
here or were you kind of yes?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I think we're probably both. I maya really made me
feel confident that we had a record. I was worried
about the songs. I didn't want them to be all
too much the same. I don't know why. That was
just in my brain.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
I was like, do you feel like a lot of
bluegrass music feels the same?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I don't know why I was worried about that. I
think it can sure certainly people that aren't steeped in
the bluegrass, that don't know bluegrass very much, it all
just sounds really fast to them.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, same kind of chord structures, give or take. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, sometimes there's minor, but sometimes it's major. But it's
fast and it's exciting, and what are they even singing about?
I don't know, like lyrics in bluegrass sometimes aren't like
at least the old old bluegrass. Yeah, they're good stories,
but not like I don't know the most interesting lyrics
(28:57):
often so. But I didn't want my stuff to sound
too much the same. Yeah, And I was worried about
saying the same words over and over because I've never
done put a group of songs together to make a record,
and I I am just like I didn't. I didn't
want to make mistakes.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Sure that makes sense. Yeah, were you it's a great record?
Were you happy with it?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Definitely?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
You love it?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I do.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I love it? Yeah, you should love it if anybody
should love you, Yes, exactly, it's a great record. This
song is super great too. I listened to the record
when the day your management reached out to me, I
listened to whatever I could find cool, and Streets of
Boulder was like it was like a no brainer. That's
(29:45):
the one I wanted to I always like, I always
tell the guests, like, whatever you want to talk about,
it's fine, but here's my two cents. Yeah, it'll be
great if we both love the song that we talk about.
Where did this song come from did you co write it?
Was it just you?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
It was It's just me?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Sure yep.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I was in college and was in a band at
that time, and the main songwriter in that band gave
me a few tips because I was really inspired by
some of the bluegrass bands that i'd heard coming through
the Wyoming area, and one was called the Cherry Homes.
(30:26):
And so I had this idea of a type of
song that I wanted to write that was kind of
like a song that the cherry Homes did. And so
I got the first verse. And of course I'd had
like the experience I broke up with a boyfriend, and
so I wanted to write about that. Why not? And
in bluegrass I always got to write a train song. Yes,
(30:46):
so the train made it into this song. I didn't
know what to do when it came to the chorus,
so my friend said, well, sometimes you can ask a question.
I thought that's a good idea. I'll ask four questions. Yes,
who am I? You know? So that's how I got there.
And I think one nice thing about some bluegrass songs
(31:13):
is they can be short and simple. The chords on
Streets of Boulder aren't necessarily totally simple, but there's two
verses in a chorus, and that's all. Yeah, it's straightforward, it's.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
A simple song, but it's also not at the same
time to me, how about we listen to the work
tape and then we'll dive in a little deeper on
the actual song, and then I think that we're going
to be able to have a video to play with
this as well. Yes, if you want to talk about that.
In the event we don't, we'll just cut this part out.
But in the event that we find the video and
(31:48):
put it with the work tape, what's that about.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Well, the work tape I recorded with just my voice
and guitar. I played guitar, But I played this song
with a band in college that went to Slovakia and
competed in an international folk contest. So in learning this song,
(32:14):
that band came up with an arrangement. In that arrangement,
they had a few lines that they played at the
end of the chorus and end of the solos and
at the end of the song. And it's a really cool,
like fast thing that is hard to describe, hard to explain.
Like I said earlier, bluegrass is an oral tradition, so
(32:36):
we're not reading music typically when we go into the studio,
so I want. I didn't know how to teach this
to the band, so I found a video of the
band High Altitude performing my song Streets of Bolder, and
use that in addition to the demo tape so that
(32:57):
the fiddle player and mandolin play could learn perfect that
fast part.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
That's cool. Hopefully we'll find the video and throw it in.
That'd be cool to see. So here's the work tape
of streets are four.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Ah that you and the porn ring upon the streets
of cursing line, fanning cloud leave.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
In this time lonesome whistle cross blotting out your haunting memory,
and the train moves on in.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
Whom I leave you one? Who are you to watch
me walking out? How are we to know it bothing out?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
This time? Who are we to know what that is
all about?
Speaker 5 (34:03):
Thousand miles away, a million memories, leer, leaving you loving me.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
It's more than I can't stand. But I won't take
you back. Still I'm crying code lonely, and the train
moves on it.
Speaker 5 (34:18):
And who will not leave you alone? Who are you
to watch me walking out? How are we to know
it won't work out?
Speaker 2 (34:31):
This time?
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Who are we to know what love is all about?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Dude?
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Tell who am I leading all alone? Who are you
(35:17):
to watch me walking out?
Speaker 2 (35:19):
How are we.
Speaker 5 (35:21):
To know it?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Mo work out this time?
Speaker 5 (35:22):
Who are we to know what love is all about?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Who are we to know what.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Love is all aver?
Speaker 1 (35:35):
I love this work tape. I noticed when we listened
down to it earlier that you left a lot of
room in there, which is what you were just talking
about before we played it. So this doesn't always happen
with a work tape when you write a song, but
(35:55):
it sounds like you had production in mine as your
right right because you left room for all the parts.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Definitely, Yeah, it was one of the only songs that
really had the lines already written. And I talked with Maya,
my producer, and said, should we leave those in or
should we take them out? And she said, I think
(36:24):
we should leave them in since it's one of the
only ones. It's such a classic bluegrass thing to have
these lines that a couple people play together. And yeah,
so we definitely we had it in mind and had
we had to be really organized when we went into
the studio with who plays what solo and who takes
what part because we only had three days with the
(36:46):
full band to track Okay, thirteen songs. So it was you.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Did thirteen songs in three days.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yes, Oh my gosh, that's busy, saying it was busy
four or five songs a day. Wow. And then I
did vocals in a few overdubs like Arco bass in
a few different days.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
That's work. Did you even take a lunch break?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
We did a lot, yes, yeah, And I mean I know,
if you eat good, you play good.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
So I hired Juniper Green to cater nice and we
had a good We had good lunch, but it was
already there and preparedly. We didn't have to think about it.
That's how I wanted it to be.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
That's great. My favorite line in the song is leaving
you loving me is more than I can stand, which
when you don't think about it doesn't sound like much,
but if you think about it and have had even
a taste of that kind of experience, it's a very
That's a big line. That's a deep line. Do you
(37:46):
have a favorite lyric in the song?
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Gosh, I like that one.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, it's a good one.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
I almost thought about naming my record that.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
That's a good.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Leaving you Loving Me that's a great Actually I had
to explain you can make merch off of that.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
That's a good idea, T shirts, whatever.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
And I like it because it's well in the song,
I'm doing the leaving and the boyfriend is still in
love and but I you know, it's it's hard to
break up. Breakups are of course, well you have.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Like an affection like of course, there are some breakups
where you need to get out m m, and you
want to get out, and you know it's the best thing.
Some of them are you need to get out, but
you don't want to get out, right yeah, And leaving
you loving me is like it just shows like you know,
(38:45):
this is my take, and then you just tell me
if I'm way off base. You know, you know you
got to go, but you still have a really strong
affection for this person, and you know also like it
kind of breaks your heart to break theirs.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yes right, yes, yeah, like they didn't really do me wrong,
right no, so but it's just people change and you
got to move on and it's more than I can stand. Yeah,
but I'm still going to do it.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Exactly was it? How much of it was true? I
mean you said it was a breakup with a boyfriend.
Did you break up? Here's what I'm envisioning. Yes, it's
good imagery, Like the lyrics is great and it's like
nineteen twenties train platform. Yeah, and you're jumping on it
on a train, hanging out the window.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Not very much of it is true, sadly, but I
wasn't in Bolder. I think he did live in Boulder,
but I have you know, I'm a creative and have
an imagination. Try to tell the story. You want to
have a good hook. What's better than the image of
a girl and a guy like standing in the pouring
(39:58):
rain in the middle of the street breaking. Yup.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
That's what songwriting. That's the greatest thing about songwriting. It
can be as true as you want to make it.
Fuls and prism Blues wasn't exactly true, right, but it
sounds true.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
You know he cash you to get all his letters
from inmates and made a whole thing off it.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
It's amazing. That's how storytelling works, and Bluegrass is so
full of storytelling songs. I think that's where I learned
to write anything story related. Cool was like Doc Watson.
Nobody writes like that anymore. I can't write about.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Murder, but those stories are so vivid Froggy Windcordan. I
don't know, but it just so all vivid and simple
and something that we can relate to. I mean, we do,
like there are some things that like the murder ballads
(40:58):
that aren't PC so much anymore, but there is terrible
The reality of our world is that that stuff is
still happening. Yeah, and if we don't write about it,
you know what, I don't know. There's something I kind
of just wish that we could change the world for
(41:18):
the better with music and with songs, and.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
But it's going to take honesty. It's just like in
comedy if you if you regulate everything too. We can't
talk about this because it might offend somebody, well, Doc
Watson stories, those murder ballads whatever, they're real stories. It
doesn't just because it Yeah, it's offensive too. It's borderline
(41:42):
offensive to hear a song about a man.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Killing his wife and getting away with it and.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Getting away with it and then and then that's on
the record, like someone and I understand the processing it
takes to be like, but this is a story, maybe
it actually happened, and maybe someone can actually relate to this.
It's not so far fetched. Think just because we don't
(42:11):
talk about these things in our day to day conversations
don't mean they're not happening, right, And I think I
could be massively wrong about this just based on the
kind of music I listen to. That kind of pop culture.
Storytelling songs are getting lost in that like they're a
(42:31):
They're more of a subculture to me. It's not that
there's not a story in mainstream music, but it just
seems a lot more shallow.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Yeah, I think there's a bit of a Sometimes there
can be a formula for songwriting and mainstream music that. Yeah,
And I don't know what it is because we're all
deep humans. And I think that if story songs were
(43:03):
some of my favorite nineties country songs were the story
songs and they would make me cry and I would
feel it really But I don't know why we're kind
of getting away from that, But I think that's one
of the best best parts of music.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Do you think it's because and I'm just like, this
is off the cuff. Do you think it's because people
want to disconnect from their own I feel like this
might be too deep for this focaess. I feel like
we're so over stimulated with information every second of the
(43:48):
day that we need to check out and we don't
want to think too deep about what we're listening to
and music. Let me just turn something on and work
out or whatever I'm doing. And I'm the I've always
been the opposite of that. I want give me the
saddest song you can throw at me. It doesn't make
(44:10):
me sad, it makes me happy, but because there's something
that happens in that that emotion, or you hear it
and it takes you somewhere else. And I don't know,
I just I just think, like the social media and
and all the info that we're just getting blasted with,
we don't take the time to get intellectual about what
(44:33):
we're consuming. And then it just repeats the cycle of
give me the most shallow thing so I.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Can go to bed, and and a lot of it
isn't the consumer's fault. Sometimes I think that like music
just gets pushed, you know, and I don't. One of
my line on my husband's record, Joel Timmins heat I
(45:06):
wrote a song and started it out in the ocean.
I was sitting in on a boat and watching him
surf and the waves were high, and so the line
that came to my head was disappear into the Whitewater
double overhead. You don't have to listen to the music
that you're being fed. I just I don't know, and
(45:29):
we really don't because we have so the streaming, as
as problematic as it can be for paying artists, is
amazing because you can discover anything on the on the Internet.
Listening to the radio is a little bit more of that,
like spoon fed type of stuff. But but I do
(45:54):
appreciate bluegrass junction and some serious XM for spinning streets
of older I think.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I think, I think that just to piggyback on that
conversation a little, is roots music like Americana bluegrass folk
feels like to me right now that it's going to
have another not that it's disappeared at risk of that,
(46:23):
but I think it's going to bloom a little more
with AI and all, and with kind of shallow music.
I think people have always craved authenticity and it's just
going to level up because right now, I mean, it's
getting harder to tell the difference between what's real and
what's not. As far as AI is concerned, but we
(46:45):
can still tell the difference right now, right now, and
as fun as some of it is, like we just
want real music, want authenticity. I want to know human
made it. I want to go watch it. I want
to listen to your mess ups. This is why I like,
that's why I made this podcast because I the demo
is so interesting and the work tape is so interesting
(47:08):
because most of the time it's just like the raw passion.
Like a lot of times it's right when you wrote
it or shortly thereafter, you're still excited about it, and
then you spend three days in the studio and you
with all your scientists and lab coats, and you make
it into a thing that you're not. You're excited, but
(47:31):
it's not the same as when you're sitting in the
writing room or your bedroom and you've got this new,
fresh thing, you know. So I think I think that
roots music, especially and maybe some like super raw rock
and roll, is going to have a resurgence.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
YEA, or at least survive AI.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
I think humans will survive because humans have to survive.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
So and what's it's better than connecting like I and
like you were saying about listening to a sad song
and it doesn't make you sad, it makes you happy.
I can relate to that because if something sad is
going on in a song and I've felt that feeling before,
(48:18):
knowing that someone else went through it, it's like, oh,
we're connected. We're yeah, we're all humans. We're experiencing this
exactly same things, kind of together, and that's important to remember.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
I agree. Before we sign off, what do you have
going on? So you've released the record, which is fantastic.
Everyone should go find it, stream it, listen to it
a few times. Are you on tour? What's going on?
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah? I did a great album release show last Wednesday
here in Nashville, and now I'm headed west, taking a
trio out on tour. For most of this we're playing
in Wyoming, Colorado, and Utah. Got some fun shows out
(49:07):
that way, and looking forward to also fitting in a
little bit of exploring, hiking and hanging out in nature.
Always try to balance the tour life with some hikes
and have to.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
You'll go crazy if you don't. Exactly, you got to
get out there.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah, and I'm already looking forward to what's next, writing
more songs and hopefully putting together more songs to release
into the world.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Well, thanks for coming, thanks for doing this, and I
hope to have you back next time. Anytime you want
to talk about a.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Song, well, thanks for having me. And anybody that's interested
in my tour schedule can go to my website, Shelby
Lemeans dot com. Cool you can find that information. And
also if you want to check out the store, I
have records and CDs for sale.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Right and I'll put that stuff all in the show notes,
so it's easy to find.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Amazing cool.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Thanks so much, Shellby Well.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
This episode of work Tapes is produced by me Brandon Carswell.
Production assistance by Jonas Linton. This episode is recorded in Nashville, Tennessee,
at Soundstage Studios. Don't forget to like and subscribe to
Work Tapes everywhere you listen special thanks to Shelby Means.
(51:04):
You can find more about Shelby
Welcome to Work Tapes. This is a podcast where we
tear up our songs. Why with the song written? What's
it about? What's the context and emotion behind it? Where
were you at the time, what were you going through?
How did certain lines come to you? What's the inspiration?
How long did it take to write? I'm Brandon Carswell
and I'm fascinated with songwriting and how songs are built
(00:30):
from the ground up. It's easy to hear a full
production song on the radio and dismiss its origin story.
I want to hear the rough draft of the song
or the work tape. I want to explore the very beginning,
how songs that move us and make us move our more.
(00:52):
Welcome to work Tapes everyone, I'm Brandon Carswell. As usual,
today's guest is one of the foremost bassist and modern
bluegrass From her Grammy winning work with Molly Tuttle and
Golden Highway to her travels with a Grammy nominated band,
Dell May, her career has spanned nearly two decades, crossing
more than twenty countries. She's an accomplished songwriter and vocalist
(01:17):
just released her first self titled solo album Today, We're
going to talk about a song called Streets of Boulder
and listen to that work tape. Welcome to work tape,
Shelby means thank you. How you doing. It's nice to
meet you.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Nice to meet you too. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
On, Thanks for coming. You are a bass player primarily,
that's right, That's what I think. Most people probably know
you from playing with Molly and the Golden Highway. Give
us some of that background before we dive into songwriting. Yeah,
(01:55):
because I think that it's really interesting how everyone's songwriting
story and this tound is different. No, I mean everyone
is so different, and a lot of times I find
that an instrument is the first thing that appeals to somebody,
(02:16):
like as a child or even in later years, and
then they get into songwriting. Sometimes it's the opposite where
they start with songs. What was your experience with that?
What led you? Let's start with what led you into
playing bass?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Great? Yeah, in the first place, Yeah, my dad plays
the banjo and the guitar, and in the bluegrass tradition,
it's very community oriented and the songs are passed down orally,
so you get together and you play music with friends.
(02:53):
And so my dad was a good organizer, and my
mom helped by cooking, so they would host little jam
sessions at our house. And when I was growing up
and I flirted with a few different instruments. I tried
fiddle when I was five, tried viola in fifth grade.
I also started singing in choir in fifth grade and
(03:17):
never stopped singing. But fiddle was too hard, Fiola I
didn't love. My dad said, the next instrument you learn,
you need to learn guitar, because you have to know
some chords. Even if you don't play the guitar in
a jam, you can look around and see what chords
the other people are playing on guitar and know how
(03:37):
to how to fit into the song. So that was
his wise advice. So I learned a little guitar. And
then when I I guess I was thirteen or so,
and I saw a woman playing the bass at a contest,
and that just I couldn't stop staring at her or
(03:59):
her hands hurt the way she plucked the string an
uprightingre yea and that drew me in. How old I
think I was? Thirteen? But well, I didn't tell my
parents that I wanted to play the bass for a
while until I guess. I had an outburst in typical
(04:20):
teenage fashion at the dinner table one night and I
just said, I guess you don't want me to play
the bass because you haven't gotten me one yet, And
they were like, what, you want to play the bass? Wow?
How did we miss that? So they said since since
I had tried so many different instruments and not stuck
with them, they said, the bass is kind of a commitment.
(04:44):
You know, we're not just going to buy you a
bass out of the blue. Want to see if you
like it first. So they suggested I call up the
Junior High school orchestra and see if they had one
that I could borrow there. So that was my first base.
I borrowed it from the Junior High Orchestra.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
That meant being meaning it's more expensive.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And it's yes, it's expensive and big.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Okay, yeah, it's going to take up a lot of space.
Another yeah, yeah, that's cool. So you were thirteen when
you when you started on bass. Before that, did you
have any interest in songwriting any You said you were singing.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
So I think very casual, like just as a little kid,
just I would make up songs. I don't remember them.
But I just I was always singing and humming and
singing words that weren't necessarily songs.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Do you did you write any when you were young,
like as a kid, do you have like do you
remember your first song?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I don't remember, you don't know, I wish I did.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Do you remember the first song that you remember writing?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Well?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
I tried. I think I really started trying to write
songs in high school. At that time. I had a
very intense editor voice, though, and so I never thought
anything was good enough. Okay, So I have little scraps
of things I started. I tried to write a song
about my grandpa. I think that's the first song I
(06:14):
really tried to write.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, and I never didn't finish it.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
No, I never liked it.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Okay, So do you feel like what I'm getting after
is like what was your dream and music? Did was
the dream that I want to be in a band,
I want to play with a group of people, or
did you want to be you want to be the spotlight?
I don't mean that shallow, I.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Just no, No, I think definitely my dream moving to Nashville.
I wanted to so. Growing up in Wyoming and the
Colorado area, I was in a few different bands, and
I love being in a band. I think the bass
is a its role is not to be in the spotlight.
(07:02):
It's a supportive instrument. And I like having friends around.
So I didn't move to Nashville really with like stars
in my eyes and like I'm going to go out
and you know, write the songs and make the records.
That was I didn't even really realize that I did
(07:23):
have a dream when I was a little kid that
I wanted to join the Chicks. Okay, but I was
so young that I still had my baby teeth and
I auditioned and they loved me in my dream. But
this is like a literal dream auditions, they loved me,
and what they said they couldn't hire me because I
(07:44):
still had some baby teeth.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
So, yeah, I wanted to join the Chicks, you know,
I loved.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
That's an interesting dream, like a literal dream that you had, Yes,
And did you find yourself wanting to be This is
interesting as your story progress is just of the little
bit that I know, did you want to be like
you wanted to be an all girl band kind of thing?
Was that in your subconscious.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Guess it must have been. Yeah, I certainly couldn't join
joining in all. I mean, I could never be in
an all male band. But why not, Well, I mean,
I guess because I'm a woman, and that would change it.
Then it wouldn't be an all male band. Got I
like a lot of the bands I was in growing up.
(08:33):
I was well one, I was the only girl, but
I did a little bit of filling in for hit
just a couple of bands, and they all had a
mix of women and men playing. I think it's really
nice to have a balance like that.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Sure, but.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Let's see, I kind of lost the thread of urart.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
It's okay when you got with a.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Oh my dream kind of coming to Nashville. I wanted
to get better at playing music. That was my dream.
I wanted to be surrounded by people who were better
than me so that I could level up. And that's
all I thought, really when I up.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
To What was the goal in getting better?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I think I listened to the Grand Ole Opry when
I was growing up, and I wanted to play on
the Opry for sure, just I don't know. Once I
got here, I started going to the jams and meeting people,
and then I got swept up in touring gigs and
(09:47):
playing with bands and going on the road, and I
think that sort of became the dream, Like, you know,
the dream which I didn't realize that I wanted, was
like riding around in a bus with a band, yeah,
and going to play for thousands of people. Right, I
love performing before.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Do you prefer playing live versus studio work or is
it all the same for you?
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Well?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Actually, I was talking to my friend about this. The
difference it's for me. There's a big difference. On stage,
I'm just the acting kind of involved in performing is
really fun for me, and there's an energetic exchange from
the crowd to the performers and back in the studio.
(10:37):
It's a little bit more like the more relaxed I
can be, the better on stage. Like the sometimes like
the bigger the gestures or the more energy you put out,
the more the crowd kind of gives back. And it's
that sort of thing. But in a recording session, if
you're kind of like tense and trying to perform, I
(10:59):
feel like the right it's not going to be as good.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
There's like a little more science in a session than
there is live. Yeah, because once you get to the
live show. You've already sussed out.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
All your parts exactly, so then you just get to play, right.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
That's fun.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, No, I like both. I don't think there's a
I've done a lot more live performance than I have
studio recording, but I really like doing both things.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
As you moved into more songwriting, did traveling help you
with that that it's that influence your ability to write
a different kind of lyric.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I think the experiences that I gained from all the
travel and performing and meeting people across the world certainly
inspired me in a creative way to write about those
experiences and things I witnessed where we don't speak this
(12:00):
same language but feel the same feelings, right, I think
that's really cool. And I think that something about melody
is really powerful because you can really communicate feelings and
emotions through I think melodies and chords, so you don't
(12:23):
necessarily have to know the language to get the vibe,
and that's important I think for my songwriting.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think it's really cool. Like
all the bands that you're in, it's cool that of
what I've seen you mentioned being more of like the bases,
like a support system for the band and that's true.
But sometimes there are bands where each player is their
(12:53):
own star, so to speak. And I think that of
the groups that you've been with that that feels like
each member is it is their own I don't know
how to how to phrase that exactly, but because you
were talking about leveling up and then you're you've made
this new record which I want to talk to you
(13:15):
about also, But that's that's kind of what it takes,
is each member of the band, like you're not just
in the band for someone else. Like when I watch
live videos of y'all, it feels very much like a unit,
you know, like but each person is also shining. Does
(13:39):
that make sense?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yes? Yes?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Can you kind of speak to that and how you work,
uh with the other people that you work with and
what what that? How you guys come up with songs?
Are you co writing with those bands?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I starting back to to my first bands here Della
may I was not I was writing songs then, but
they kind of had the writers in a way for
that band I joined after. The bass players are always changing.
(14:19):
I don't know, I don't know what that is, but
it does feel like in bands there's always like the
bass players shifting a little bit. So I came in
and there's too many jokes about basically yes, well if
at least in bluegrass we have the banjo players to
pick on, there you go. But I so, I wasn't
(14:42):
involved much in writing in that band, but I I did.
I still love arranging and harmony singing and that is
you know, you're writing parts in a way, so creatively,
that was a good way to work with that band.
And when I joined, we were getting ready to make
(15:05):
a record with Brian Sutton producing, and he came up
did some pre production and then we got into the
studio and that was totally an amazing process to be
a part of. That was my first real studio recording
with a producer, and that was such a learning experience,
(15:30):
learning how to work with each other when we've been
performing for a while, but then getting into the studio
putting everything under a microscope, it's really intense. So it
was a good learning experience in that way. And then
after Dela May, I did Sally and George, which is
my duo project with my husband, and that was a
(15:53):
lot more co writing and since it was just the
two of us, we each had a lot more freedom
to say things and to write songs and bring songs
to the table and range and all that. But then
it was just the two of us doing all the work.
So it was, Yeah, there's a lot involved in that.
(16:15):
But I think I started honing my co writing then,
and we were living in Nashville and would get together
with Nashville songwriters and do three way co writes and
just a lot of those turned out really good. I've
worked with Melody Walker and Robbie Heckt, and I really
enjoy co writing, and it's there's something about having constraints,
(16:40):
like we're here, we're in this space, but we want
to leave, so we want to finish with something right,
So just like trying to get through and finish.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah, there's something I was listening to or reading while
I was listening to Jeff Tweety's book about I Forget
what It's called now, about songwriting and how sometimes he'll
purposefully set limits for himself and he'll say, oh, I
have an extra five minutes before lobby call or whatever.
Let me see what I can get done in five
(17:12):
minutes before I go downstairs. And I've that's such an
interesting kind of project to set for yourself and having
those deadlines. I write a lot of solo songs or
by myself, so I don't it's easy not to finish something.
(17:32):
It's easy to go out. I can't think of this
right the second, so I'll just put it down for
a while. Yeah, which is sometimes good too.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
For me, especially the songs on my record. Some of
them were complete in my notebooks, and others sat for years.
But I really liked them. I really liked what I had.
I just and I had such high expectations for what
the rest of the song like. It had to stand
up to that first verse that I wrote, So it
(18:02):
took me years to finish and different, and I remember working,
especially on high planes, wyoming like over and over, trying
and trying to match the first verse. And I finally
found like two other verses that I'd written were like, whoa,
those are good? I like them. Yeah, okay, shit, Now
(18:23):
what do I do for the chorus?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Sorry?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I don't know if Oh, you're fine, You're fine, no apologies?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Do you do you?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
As far as Kraft goes, do you like the craft
of songwriting more than playing bass? Are you enamored with
bass or or are they kind of one in the
same feeding each other.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Hmm. That's such a good question, I think hmm. I
think like it is interesting. The physical aspect of playing
the bass is becoming more and more challenging to me
as I get old older. It's it's so I think
possibly where I've leaned on the bass as my crutch,
(19:07):
like my go to it's my how I get gigs
and that sort of thing. Songwriting isn't like a physical process,
but you still need the tools and the technical aspects
like you would with the bass. So I feel like,
I don't know, I might. I think it's been bass
and possibly songwriting may start to take over going forward.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Well you well, I mean if that happens, are you
going to miss bass?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I never want to quit playing the bas.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Smaller one, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
They have quarter size and they're smaller. They're so cute.
They still sound really good. Probably easier to fly with,
easier to fit in a car, and you have to buy.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Plane tickets to carry your base around or you can.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
You know, my bass has a bolt on neck.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Oh cool, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So if I fly, I have to loosen the strings,
pull out the endpin, take the bridge off, and then
unbolt the neck. And that comes completely off and then
they all fit fits in this travel case. It's hard.
Oh that's wid, but it does cost sometimes, depending on
the airline, it can cost more than the ticket.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
I know nothing about upright. I've messed with them and
I'm like, I can't do this. I'll just take the
p bass all day. That's just easy. Yeah, so True,
So True has the sound as far as bluegrass goes.
I think that you're one of my first guests that
are pretty exclusively bluegrass music. And I love bluegrass. A
(20:49):
lot of my family grew up on bluegrass and southern
gospel music, so I know it. I was around it.
I never have played it because I think that bluegrass
is such a technically difficult genre of music or that
comes to harmonies playing off each other, especially when it's real,
(21:12):
like the real deal stuff is especially live. They know
when and how far to walk up to the mic,
like if nothing's then I love that. Yeah, are there.
I'm always very curious, though, in any genre that someone
chooses or was chosen for them based on their upbringing,
(21:36):
what other genres influence you that might surprise your fans,
Like are you secretly a metal junkie? I want to know.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Like, I have a soft spot for old rock and
roll when I was in college. I think that was
my rebellion against my parents just country and bluegrass exclusively
listening to like Emma Lou, Harrison Flatt and Scrugs and
Alison Krause and Union Station growing up. When I got
(22:08):
into college, I was like, what is this led Zeppelin
all about?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
And I really did some deep diving there and in
found what do you know, like mandolin and and kind
of throw back to some roots music in their music,
and I loved that.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
And then he ends up working with Alison Krause making
one of the best records.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Ever serious, Like for me, that's just perfect. Yeah, But yeah,
I like I like rock and roll, rock and roll.
I love reggae also. It's really hard to listen to
but as a bass player, like difficult, yeah, really difficult
(22:53):
and completely different than bluegrass bass to try and stretch
my my mind a little bit and play reggae.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Have you ever been hired to play for something that's
not bluegrass? That was a super challenge.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
A lot of so upright. Bass was my first instrument,
and getting hired on electric is always it gets me
a little excited and like, Okay, how I got it?
Really got a practice, get your.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Leather jacket out, you're ready to go. I love that.
Let's talk about this song Streets of Boulder cool before
we talked to in depth about this and the work tape.
Take us through the story of Oh, I'm gonna make it.
(23:44):
I'm going to make a solo album. I'm going to
make my own record. What was that? Was that a
long time dream? Wasn't an epiphany that you had?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Why? Why do you want to do it? I, like
I said, I didn't move to Nashville necessarily to with
like a bag of songs, my guitar and try. I didn't.
I didn't have that like I'm gonna be a star
thing in my head. I just wanted to play music
with better musicians than myself, and I don't know. I
(24:20):
was touring with Molly Tuttle and Golden Highway, and when
I joined that band, it left my husband in a
spot where I wasn't available to play in our duo
as much, and so he was sort of scratching his
head thinking what am I gonna What am I gonna do?
(24:41):
And he had a batch of songs and he'd been
playing a lot with Maya Davitri and asked her if
she would produce a solo record for him. I'm not
sure what made him want to do it, but he
started the process and I thought that was really cool.
And I was also talking to Bronwyn Keith Hines a lot,
(25:05):
the fiddle player, and Molly Tuttle and Golden Highway, and
she had made a solo record a few years earlier
and it was all fiddle tunes, but she was saying,
I want to make a solo record, but this time
I think I'm gonna sing. And I was like, well,
that's really cool. I can sing. I have songs. So
(25:28):
it just Joel making his solo record and bron Win
doing hers, and then getting more comfortable with recording and
going into the studio with Molly and Jerry Douglas producing.
I just it got me thinking that I wanted to
do it, and I was also able to because I
was touring so much. I was just able to save money.
(25:51):
So it takes a lot of money to make a
good record. And I'm a perfectionist when it comes to
sound and songs, and just if I was going to
make a bluegrass record, I wanted it to be really good,
so I saved up money and and I enjoyed watching
Maya da Vitri produce Joel and thought that she could
(26:16):
do a good job. You know, I thought about Jerry
or Brian, the people that I'd worked with in the
past producing, but in the end, I wanted I wanted
Maya because I felt really comfortable with her as a
person and for me, like I was saying earlier, the
(26:37):
more relaxed I can be in the studio, the easier
I feel in the studio, the better I feel that
the product is. So I just tried to yees surround
myself with that ease, because I knew I would be
totally nervous going in and trying to play with sure.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I think that people that don't have that experience, like
even if you're around it or you've recorded before, but
it's not your songs and there it's not your session.
There's a lot of intimidation when you walk in the room,
even with a producer you're comfortable with. It's kind of like,
(27:17):
you know, even when you you write a song you
show it to someone, you're kind of wondering what they're
gonna think, and they you're gonna wear in your heart
on your sleeve. That happens in the studio, but it's
like it doesn't stop until you're done, and it's heavy, right. Yeah,
So to take that, you know, years of touring and
playing and supporting the artist who's actually who's writing the
(27:40):
songs or whatever, and doing your own thing, that's a
big deal. Yeah, and that's were you. Did you have
anxiety about that? Did you feel like, oh I belong
here or were you kind of yes?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I think we're probably both. I maya really made me
feel confident that we had a record. I was worried
about the songs. I didn't want them to be all
too much the same. I don't know why. That was
just in my brain.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
I was like, do you feel like a lot of
bluegrass music feels the same?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I don't know why I was worried about that. I
think it can sure certainly people that aren't steeped in
the bluegrass, that don't know bluegrass very much, it all
just sounds really fast to them.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, same kind of chord structures, give or take. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, sometimes there's minor, but sometimes it's major. But it's
fast and it's exciting, and what are they even singing about?
I don't know, like lyrics in bluegrass sometimes aren't like
at least the old old bluegrass. Yeah, they're good stories,
but not like I don't know the most interesting lyrics
(28:57):
often so. But I didn't want my stuff to sound
too much the same. Yeah, And I was worried about
saying the same words over and over because I've never
done put a group of songs together to make a record,
and I I am just like I didn't. I didn't
want to make mistakes.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Sure that makes sense. Yeah, were you it's a great record?
Were you happy with it?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Definitely?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
You love it?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I do.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I love it? Yeah, you should love it if anybody
should love you, Yes, exactly, it's a great record. This
song is super great too. I listened to the record
when the day your management reached out to me, I
listened to whatever I could find cool, and Streets of
Boulder was like it was like a no brainer. That's
(29:45):
the one I wanted to I always like, I always
tell the guests, like, whatever you want to talk about,
it's fine, but here's my two cents. Yeah, it'll be
great if we both love the song that we talk about.
Where did this song come from did you co write it?
Was it just you?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
It was It's just me?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Sure yep.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I was in college and was in a band at
that time, and the main songwriter in that band gave
me a few tips because I was really inspired by
some of the bluegrass bands that i'd heard coming through
the Wyoming area, and one was called the Cherry Homes.
(30:26):
And so I had this idea of a type of
song that I wanted to write that was kind of
like a song that the cherry Homes did. And so
I got the first verse. And of course I'd had
like the experience I broke up with a boyfriend, and
so I wanted to write about that. Why not? And
in bluegrass I always got to write a train song. Yes,
(30:46):
so the train made it into this song. I didn't
know what to do when it came to the chorus,
so my friend said, well, sometimes you can ask a question.
I thought that's a good idea. I'll ask four questions. Yes,
who am I? You know? So that's how I got there.
And I think one nice thing about some bluegrass songs
(31:13):
is they can be short and simple. The chords on
Streets of Boulder aren't necessarily totally simple, but there's two
verses in a chorus, and that's all. Yeah, it's straightforward, it's.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
A simple song, but it's also not at the same
time to me, how about we listen to the work
tape and then we'll dive in a little deeper on
the actual song, and then I think that we're going
to be able to have a video to play with
this as well. Yes, if you want to talk about that.
In the event we don't, we'll just cut this part out.
But in the event that we find the video and
(31:48):
put it with the work tape, what's that about.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Well, the work tape I recorded with just my voice
and guitar. I played guitar, But I played this song
with a band in college that went to Slovakia and
competed in an international folk contest. So in learning this song,
(32:14):
that band came up with an arrangement. In that arrangement,
they had a few lines that they played at the
end of the chorus and end of the solos and
at the end of the song. And it's a really cool,
like fast thing that is hard to describe, hard to explain.
Like I said earlier, bluegrass is an oral tradition, so
(32:36):
we're not reading music typically when we go into the studio,
so I want. I didn't know how to teach this
to the band, so I found a video of the
band High Altitude performing my song Streets of Bolder, and
use that in addition to the demo tape so that
(32:57):
the fiddle player and mandolin play could learn perfect that
fast part.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
That's cool. Hopefully we'll find the video and throw it in.
That'd be cool to see. So here's the work tape
of streets are four.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Ah that you and the porn ring upon the streets
of cursing line, fanning cloud leave.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
In this time lonesome whistle cross blotting out your haunting memory,
and the train moves on in.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
Whom I leave you one? Who are you to watch
me walking out? How are we to know it bothing out?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
This time? Who are we to know what that is
all about?
Speaker 5 (34:03):
Thousand miles away, a million memories, leer, leaving you loving me.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
It's more than I can't stand. But I won't take
you back. Still I'm crying code lonely, and the train
moves on it.
Speaker 5 (34:18):
And who will not leave you alone? Who are you
to watch me walking out? How are we to know
it won't work out?
Speaker 2 (34:31):
This time?
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Who are we to know what love is all about?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Dude?
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Tell who am I leading all alone? Who are you
(35:17):
to watch me walking out?
Speaker 2 (35:19):
How are we.
Speaker 5 (35:21):
To know it?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Mo work out this time?
Speaker 5 (35:22):
Who are we to know what love is all about?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Who are we to know what.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Love is all aver?
Speaker 1 (35:35):
I love this work tape. I noticed when we listened
down to it earlier that you left a lot of
room in there, which is what you were just talking
about before we played it. So this doesn't always happen
with a work tape when you write a song, but
(35:55):
it sounds like you had production in mine as your
right right because you left room for all the parts.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Definitely, Yeah, it was one of the only songs that
really had the lines already written. And I talked with Maya,
my producer, and said, should we leave those in or
should we take them out? And she said, I think
(36:24):
we should leave them in since it's one of the
only ones. It's such a classic bluegrass thing to have
these lines that a couple people play together. And yeah,
so we definitely we had it in mind and had
we had to be really organized when we went into
the studio with who plays what solo and who takes
what part because we only had three days with the
(36:46):
full band to track Okay, thirteen songs. So it was you.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Did thirteen songs in three days.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yes, Oh my gosh, that's busy, saying it was busy
four or five songs a day. Wow. And then I
did vocals in a few overdubs like Arco bass in
a few different days.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
That's work. Did you even take a lunch break?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
We did a lot, yes, yeah, And I mean I know,
if you eat good, you play good.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
So I hired Juniper Green to cater nice and we
had a good We had good lunch, but it was
already there and preparedly. We didn't have to think about it.
That's how I wanted it to be.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
That's great. My favorite line in the song is leaving
you loving me is more than I can stand, which
when you don't think about it doesn't sound like much,
but if you think about it and have had even
a taste of that kind of experience, it's a very
That's a big line. That's a deep line. Do you
(37:46):
have a favorite lyric in the song?
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Gosh, I like that one.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, it's a good one.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
I almost thought about naming my record that.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
That's a good.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Leaving you Loving Me that's a great Actually I had
to explain you can make merch off of that.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
That's a good idea, T shirts, whatever.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
And I like it because it's well in the song,
I'm doing the leaving and the boyfriend is still in
love and but I you know, it's it's hard to
break up. Breakups are of course, well you have.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Like an affection like of course, there are some breakups
where you need to get out m m, and you
want to get out, and you know it's the best thing.
Some of them are you need to get out, but
you don't want to get out, right yeah, And leaving
you loving me is like it just shows like you know,
(38:45):
this is my take, and then you just tell me
if I'm way off base. You know, you know you
got to go, but you still have a really strong
affection for this person, and you know also like it
kind of breaks your heart to break theirs.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yes right, yes, yeah, like they didn't really do me wrong,
right no, so but it's just people change and you
got to move on and it's more than I can stand. Yeah,
but I'm still going to do it.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Exactly was it? How much of it was true? I
mean you said it was a breakup with a boyfriend.
Did you break up? Here's what I'm envisioning. Yes, it's
good imagery, Like the lyrics is great and it's like
nineteen twenties train platform. Yeah, and you're jumping on it
on a train, hanging out the window.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Not very much of it is true, sadly, but I
wasn't in Bolder. I think he did live in Boulder,
but I have you know, I'm a creative and have
an imagination. Try to tell the story. You want to
have a good hook. What's better than the image of
a girl and a guy like standing in the pouring
(39:58):
rain in the middle of the street breaking. Yup.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
That's what songwriting. That's the greatest thing about songwriting. It
can be as true as you want to make it.
Fuls and prism Blues wasn't exactly true, right, but it
sounds true.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
You know he cash you to get all his letters
from inmates and made a whole thing off it.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
It's amazing. That's how storytelling works, and Bluegrass is so
full of storytelling songs. I think that's where I learned
to write anything story related. Cool was like Doc Watson.
Nobody writes like that anymore. I can't write about.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Murder, but those stories are so vivid Froggy Windcordan. I
don't know, but it just so all vivid and simple
and something that we can relate to. I mean, we do,
like there are some things that like the murder ballads
(40:58):
that aren't PC so much anymore, but there is terrible
The reality of our world is that that stuff is
still happening. Yeah, and if we don't write about it,
you know what, I don't know. There's something I kind
of just wish that we could change the world for
(41:18):
the better with music and with songs, and.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
But it's going to take honesty. It's just like in
comedy if you if you regulate everything too. We can't
talk about this because it might offend somebody, well, Doc
Watson stories, those murder ballads whatever, they're real stories. It
doesn't just because it Yeah, it's offensive too. It's borderline
(41:42):
offensive to hear a song about a man.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Killing his wife and getting away with it and.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Getting away with it and then and then that's on
the record, like someone and I understand the processing it
takes to be like, but this is a story, maybe
it actually happened, and maybe someone can actually relate to this.
It's not so far fetched. Think just because we don't
(42:11):
talk about these things in our day to day conversations
don't mean they're not happening, right, And I think I
could be massively wrong about this just based on the
kind of music I listen to. That kind of pop culture.
Storytelling songs are getting lost in that like they're a
(42:31):
They're more of a subculture to me. It's not that
there's not a story in mainstream music, but it just
seems a lot more shallow.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Yeah, I think there's a bit of a Sometimes there
can be a formula for songwriting and mainstream music that. Yeah,
And I don't know what it is because we're all
deep humans. And I think that if story songs were
(43:03):
some of my favorite nineties country songs were the story
songs and they would make me cry and I would
feel it really But I don't know why we're kind
of getting away from that, But I think that's one
of the best best parts of music.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Do you think it's because and I'm just like, this
is off the cuff. Do you think it's because people
want to disconnect from their own I feel like this
might be too deep for this focaess. I feel like
we're so over stimulated with information every second of the
(43:48):
day that we need to check out and we don't
want to think too deep about what we're listening to
and music. Let me just turn something on and work
out or whatever I'm doing. And I'm the I've always
been the opposite of that. I want give me the
saddest song you can throw at me. It doesn't make
(44:10):
me sad, it makes me happy, but because there's something
that happens in that that emotion, or you hear it
and it takes you somewhere else. And I don't know,
I just I just think, like the social media and
and all the info that we're just getting blasted with,
we don't take the time to get intellectual about what
(44:33):
we're consuming. And then it just repeats the cycle of
give me the most shallow thing so I.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Can go to bed, and and a lot of it
isn't the consumer's fault. Sometimes I think that like music
just gets pushed, you know, and I don't. One of
my line on my husband's record, Joel Timmins heat I
(45:06):
wrote a song and started it out in the ocean.
I was sitting in on a boat and watching him
surf and the waves were high, and so the line
that came to my head was disappear into the Whitewater
double overhead. You don't have to listen to the music
that you're being fed. I just I don't know, and
(45:29):
we really don't because we have so the streaming, as
as problematic as it can be for paying artists, is
amazing because you can discover anything on the on the Internet.
Listening to the radio is a little bit more of that,
like spoon fed type of stuff. But but I do
(45:54):
appreciate bluegrass junction and some serious XM for spinning streets
of older I think.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I think, I think that just to piggyback on that
conversation a little, is roots music like Americana bluegrass folk
feels like to me right now that it's going to
have another not that it's disappeared at risk of that,
(46:23):
but I think it's going to bloom a little more
with AI and all, and with kind of shallow music.
I think people have always craved authenticity and it's just
going to level up because right now, I mean, it's
getting harder to tell the difference between what's real and
what's not. As far as AI is concerned, but we
(46:45):
can still tell the difference right now, right now, and
as fun as some of it is, like we just
want real music, want authenticity. I want to know human
made it. I want to go watch it. I want
to listen to your mess ups. This is why I like,
that's why I made this podcast because I the demo
is so interesting and the work tape is so interesting
(47:08):
because most of the time it's just like the raw passion.
Like a lot of times it's right when you wrote
it or shortly thereafter, you're still excited about it, and
then you spend three days in the studio and you
with all your scientists and lab coats, and you make
it into a thing that you're not. You're excited, but
(47:31):
it's not the same as when you're sitting in the
writing room or your bedroom and you've got this new,
fresh thing, you know. So I think I think that
roots music, especially and maybe some like super raw rock
and roll, is going to have a resurgence.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
YEA, or at least survive AI.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
I think humans will survive because humans have to survive.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
So and what's it's better than connecting like I and
like you were saying about listening to a sad song
and it doesn't make you sad, it makes you happy.
I can relate to that because if something sad is
going on in a song and I've felt that feeling before,
(48:18):
knowing that someone else went through it, it's like, oh,
we're connected. We're yeah, we're all humans. We're experiencing this
exactly same things, kind of together, and that's important to remember.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
I agree. Before we sign off, what do you have
going on? So you've released the record, which is fantastic.
Everyone should go find it, stream it, listen to it
a few times. Are you on tour? What's going on?
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah? I did a great album release show last Wednesday
here in Nashville, and now I'm headed west, taking a
trio out on tour. For most of this we're playing
in Wyoming, Colorado, and Utah. Got some fun shows out
(49:07):
that way, and looking forward to also fitting in a
little bit of exploring, hiking and hanging out in nature.
Always try to balance the tour life with some hikes
and have to.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
You'll go crazy if you don't. Exactly, you got to
get out there.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah, and I'm already looking forward to what's next, writing
more songs and hopefully putting together more songs to release
into the world.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Well, thanks for coming, thanks for doing this, and I
hope to have you back next time. Anytime you want
to talk about a.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Song, well, thanks for having me. And anybody that's interested
in my tour schedule can go to my website, Shelby
Lemeans dot com. Cool you can find that information. And
also if you want to check out the store, I
have records and CDs for sale.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Right and I'll put that stuff all in the show notes,
so it's easy to find.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Amazing cool.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Thanks so much, Shellby Well.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
This episode of work Tapes is produced by me Brandon Carswell.
Production assistance by Jonas Linton. This episode is recorded in Nashville, Tennessee,
at Soundstage Studios. Don't forget to like and subscribe to
Work Tapes everywhere you listen special thanks to Shelby Means.
(51:04):
You can find more about Shelby
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