Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, we have a we have a jam pack show
for you today. Missing today, Missing is Bill Petterson, director
of Utah Shooting Sports Council, and he is I think
he's archery hunting.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
He's killing something. I know it might be fishing.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
You know, I'm not one hundred percent, sir, But he
did say he was going to be out of cell
range and mobile range and everything.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So we need to get billium.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
We need to get billiam A a satellite phone and
have him call in on satellite. So let me tell
you what we've got going today. I'm going to give
you an update on on my bump stock. Yeah, we'll
give you an update on the bump stock. And we're
going to talk about, Oh, the the ATF got shot
down again in in Fifth Circuit Court and that's on
(00:47):
the pistol brace thing. And I mean it's it was
a summary judgment to give you an idea. So it was,
you know, I'm going to kind of explain it a
little bit. It wasn't really based on Second Amendment grounds,
but nonetheless, nonetheless, and Oregon, Oregon just passed a lot.
It goes into effect. I think this last week or
(01:08):
maybe this or maybe Monday or Tuesday because Monday's a
labor day. But anyway, on ghost guns, Casey Jane, Casey Jane,
we should probably go to our Halloween parties as ghost guns.
That would be I don't know what the outfit would
look like, but anyway, just something without a serial number
on it. We're going to talk a little bit about
(01:29):
ghost guns and what are they and what are they not?
All right, We're also going to well, do you have
a gun at home? If you're listening to gun radio Utah, yeah,
you probably have a gun at home.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
In fact, funny funny thing.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
So I was sitting there doing some review, I don't know,
I'll say I was doing radio or show prep or something,
and knock at the door, ring the doorbell, and I
checked the camera real quick. It's my neighbor, and we're
out here in beautiful You went to county in the
county at Ghost Eye Manor, and the neighbor comes by
and he was going to he's looking at the north
(02:10):
property and the south property to mow it down for me.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
He's got this big brushog kind of thing that does that.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Anyway, So I wanted to go out there with him
and kind of figure out where he's you know what
areas he's going to do in that? So I came
to the door and he says, hey, you want to
go walk the property. I says, yeah, hang on just
a second, let me grab my gun in case I
see that that stupid skunk that's been around. And he says, oh, well,
I've got mine. I says, yeah, but I want my home.
So anyway, that's the area that we live. And no,
(02:37):
we did not see the skunk. We didn't see it.
But I'm thinking the dogs may find the skunk before
I do. I hope that's not the case. So anyway,
so we've got that. Do you have a gun at home?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Though?
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So right now, think if you're listening, if you're in
the car, if you're at home, if you're at the office,
if you're in the garage, and you keep a firearm
at home, home for defensive purposes obviously not for hunting.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Right there? Where is the gun? How far away is it?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
If something happened but bam, right now somebody comes in
off the street or whatever, could you access that firearm
where you are? No cheating, but where you are right now?
Are your arms reach your way?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
For? Is it on you? Right now. Good for you? Anyway?
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Is it is it fully loaded? Is it has got
around in the chamber? Can you operate it with one hand?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
You know? So on and so forth. I'm just I'm
just kind of curious.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Also, we're going to broach the subject in the second
in the second segment, we're going to have one of
my favorite liberals on that. Anyway, We're gonna have Kerry
Butler on and Carrie is, uh, yeah, she's she's unapologetically
I don't I don't want to say she's anti gun,
(03:56):
but we'll let her describe what she is.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
You decide.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And we're going to talk about cap laws, child access
prevention laws. Do we need them here in Utah because
of the one the huge tragedy of a little five
year old that that died as a result of a
gunshot wound that was self inflicted accidentally, obviously accidentally, and
a two year old, no, no, a three, just take
(04:21):
that back, a three year old, I want to say,
in Magnum who apparently discharged around from mom's twenty two
got to his foot. So we're going to talk about
child access prevention laws. And I'm not going to give
it away as to which direction I'm going on this,
So we'll let we'll let well, I think we're going
(04:42):
to have I think we're going to have a lively
discussion that could be. It's going to be a lively
discussion I think with with miss carry Butler. So and
I've got another I got another question for you. What
and maybe you know, maybe we'll we'll save a huge
discussion on this till when Kerry gets here. What should
(05:05):
happen to the parents? Is there a law? Is there
a law that could be utilized? Is there a penalty?
Is there a law that was broken when for each
of the parents? And no, I'm not don't get me going.
I mean, yes, it's a tragedy and I'm not looking
to do anything beyond what we've got right now. And
(05:28):
do we need to rethink what we have right now?
But we're going to talk about that. We're going to
talk about the laws that come into play. Does uta
even have a penalty for leaving a gun out? So
I'll get anyway, Yes we do. I'll give you a
little hint.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
On that one.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
All right, let's go to I do want to talk
about Well, we don't really have a lot of time
to talk about the Oregon Ghost gun Band. So you
know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get this done
right now. Do you have a gun that he's broken,
the stock is cracked, it's got a big scratch in
(06:04):
the finish. You have a missing part and it's an
older gun and you just can't find the part for
an extract or a magazine, maybe even I don't know,
a front sight has been knocked off.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You just want some customizing. Maybe you want it read.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
You've got a rifle that you want to use for
deer hunt, you want it rechambered to a more popular
or more effective cartridge. Get that gun over to the gunsmith,
a sportsman's warehouse. The gunsmith a sportsman's warehouse can really
they can evaluate your firearm for you. They can tell
you what's needed, and they can tell you some options.
They can talk. I mean, just fantastic gunsmiths that specialize
(06:46):
in different things. Some of them specialize in nothing but
remy to eight seventy shotguns, you know, and they can
do wonders with that. But whatever you need, including sarah
cooting and engraving and refinishing, rebluing, whatever it is, get
it over to the gun Smith is sixteen thirty South
fifty seventy West. That's sixteen thirty South fifty seventy west
in Salt Lake City. You can give them a call
(07:07):
at eight oh one three zero four eighty seventy It's
eight o one three zero four eighty seventy zero. You
can drop it off at any of the over one
hundred and forty five Sportsmen's Warehouse locations and they will
get it to the gunsmith and.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Get it worked done for you. Then they'll give you
a call.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Mike over there will give you a call and find
out what exactly do you want, what exactly is the
issue with it, and that type of thing. So, all right,
when we come back, we're going to have Carry Butler
on and we're gonna we're gonna we're going to delve
into this. We're going to delve into this kids and
guns when we come back on Gun Radio Utah.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
So stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I am Clark Aposian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports
Council and a host of Gun Radio Utah. No apologies,
and keeping in line with the no apologies, we're going
to bring on right now. Carry Butler. Kerry is the
director of the Utah Public Health Association and your uh
and you do lobby and you do lobby and you
(08:08):
do outreach and that kind of stuff and uh and
and you're completely one hundred percent basically anti gun.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Is that right? Can I characterize you correctly? Is there
anything wrong without what I just said?
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Now? I would like to collect them own, put them
in a pile and melt them into a statue and
you know, high five of them every time I walked,
Just kidding, just kidding. I do not want to do that.
But yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Don't, not yet, Not yet, you don't, not yet, you don't.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Yeah, let's see, let's see what we want to do
in the meantime.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So with regards to guns, what does the U p
h A, what are they? What's their focus with with
regarding guns in Utah? And I know I realized it's
the only thing that you do, but.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yeah, yeah, I do want to say that we have
a very broad, uh a very broad understanding of what
is public health right and generally speaking, anything that we
can do to address issues that are preventable disease, violence, injury,
et cetera, that is a preventable issue that is community based.
(09:17):
That's something that we might engage ourselves and in public health.
So anything from you know, vaccination against polio, which we're
hearing a lot about in the Middle East right now,
to encouraging safe car seat use in vehicles. Those are
the things that we'll focus on. And as far as
(09:38):
gun violence goes in our organization recently passed a resolution
to work towards UH work forward the Public Health Solution
to prevent accidental injury and intentional injury and death from
firearms as a public as a public safety offering.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So look at that aw are injured in car accidents
quite a bit. In fact, we're eating saying actually a
little bit of an uptick in that the car. Is
it an epidemic right now of car accidents?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Well, I think it's an endemic, which means I think
it's endemic.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
It's something that just is part of where we are
in the development of the world, where most of the
things we do are in cars, most of the places
we go are in vehicles. And from a public health perspective,
we have to understand that cars are a part of life.
Cars are a part of the foundation of our society,
and so we work really hard to keep people as
(10:40):
safe as possible in those cars.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Okay, right, have you been reading the news reasearch?
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Yeah, And answer to your question, I wouldn't say epidemic.
I would say endemic, and I would say that we
work really really hard to make sure that we reduce
as much as possible those numbers measures like spells and
and and safety measures and you know one of those
things called it pop out if you crash. Oh, Harry Clark,
(11:10):
I just had COVID.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
My brain is dumb, it's probably did you get it?
Did you get a shot for it? Did you get
a shot for the COVID priority?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I think I got it from the shot. Yeah, I
think it's I have.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Heard that getting the shot for it does tend to
affect the brain waves and that kind of stuff, so
anyway in.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
A negative way. So moving right along. Have you been
watching the news?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Did you hear the tragedy about the five year old
and the also very troubling news about a three year old,
both involving parents firearms.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Did you hear about that? What were your thoughts on
What were your thoughts on those two?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
You know, I think that both of those things are
tragic for you know, the on their faith value. It's terrible.
It's just terrible to encounter that. It's hard for the neighborhood.
It's going to be really hard for that family. You know,
it will forever.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah. Yeah, Let's let's recount what happened. Apparently with the
five year old who was was fatally shot, and he
was somewhere in a different part of the house.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Mom and dad were home.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
And he somehow accessed a nine milimeter handgun and uh
and ultimately fired a shot that killed him. And you know,
the parents, parents ran to them, but they were unsuccessful
to revive him ultimately. And in the case I believe
in Magna, mom got home and put a twenty two
(12:48):
caliber some type of handgun enough pistol or revolver, but
put it on.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
The shelf and she walked away.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
And essentially, I take it, I'm assuming the elf was
generally out of reach, and she heard a crash while
she was in a different part of the house, and
then she heard the report of a firearm, you know,
a gunshot, and she came and found that her children
had discharged around from the twenty two into his foot
(13:18):
and he had to be taken to Primary Children's and
surgery was done and.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
That kind of stuff so rare.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
What what do you think this was a result of
or could you characterize it in in a comedy?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, you know, I think I think what do you think?
I mean, I don't know without being inside the homes
of these of these folks, and again it's it's super
tragic and as a parent, I really my heart goes
out to these families. And also when you have a
firearm in the home, there are certain protocols that that
should be followed to make sure that your kids are
(13:54):
very safe, and those include storage, Those include keeping the
I mean separate from the gun. There are some best practices,
and I think our job, Clark, in public health is
to teach people the best practices for safety and then
enforce those best practices as much as we can, especially
when we're talking about these tiny little kiddos, right, who
(14:16):
who whose job is almost to get into trouble, to
climb up on shelves to find things they're not supposed
to touch? Right?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
It is the only kid my job?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Okay, So are you proposing and so are you saying
it's for the kids though, I mean we're talking about kids.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
We want to protect the kids, right, I mean.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
We want to protect everybody, right but.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Right, yeah, and we don't want little kids to get hurt.
What what's the what's the major cause? Since we're talking
about a three year old and a five year old,
let's go zero to five, what's the what's the leading
cause of death and or injury? What's the leading cause
of death under or injury to little kids? Zero to five?
That's preventive, not and I'm talking injury. What do you
(15:04):
think that is injury?
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I would say zero to five is likely car accidents
in that zero to five ring.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Okay, in fact, let's stick it right in the home.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
You are correct, but let's now stick it and I'm
going to further filter it by saying, in the home,
what is the leading cause of injury in the home.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
My guess is it's probably uh, poison, all right.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Ding ding ding, It is okay, get very good, very good. Falls, choking, choking,
and or drowning is also in there.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Burns, yeah, and so.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So my question then, so drowning, falls, poisonings, burns, and
that poisons can be everything from medication, over the counter, prescription, recreational,
and it can also be you know, stuff that's under
you or sinc.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
You know that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
How your life, all your cleaning solutions and even pesticides
in that right? What tell me? And so with that
in mind, tell us about cap laws? What what does
caps stand for? And what does a cap law hope
to do? Are you in favor of cap laws? By
the way?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Uh? You know, I think that I am in favor
of cap laws the most. The most up to date
research on gun violence prevention policies and regulations suggest that
there is a positive correlation between states who have cap
laws and reductions of accidental injury for these little for
these zero to eighteen category.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
One from the Duke University.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Okay, okay, So I just read a study from the
Duke University that examined gun laws. Did it in the
back way, examined gun laws and their effectiveness, and they
found that cap laws really didn't you know, And they
looked at states that had them and states it didn't
have them, and they didn't see a correlation between the
cap law and that. But that was one study out
of Duke University in Duke.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I mean, you know, come on, anyway, I don't really
know any.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
What is it?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
So?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
What does a cap law do when does it come
into effect?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Right, So our state actually has a little baby cap law.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
So basically what it says is if you're if your
kiddo uses a firearm that is unsecured, that you are
culpable as the adult parent in the in the home.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
And I think Clark, you'll know this way better than
I will. But I think in our state it's like
a third degree felony maybe, or maybe it's an even
as mean.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Actually it goes it depends if it was intentionally or
knowingly recklessly or criminal negligence. It can go from a
class A misdemeanor to a third degree felony to a
second degree felony.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And it isn't firearms specific.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Though, it's not firearms specific, and so what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I want to say, Nope, it's yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Seventy six five two eight is the code, and it
hinges on it's basically child abuse, child abuse, child abuse, neglect,
child abuse, injury, child abuse, homicide, and it hinges on
the degree of negligence. And it does not mention I
(18:26):
don't think it mentions firearm anywhere in there. So it's
any dangerous item, which is I'm going to say, very
important because the vast, vast majority of childhood and when
I'm talking childhood, I'm not including eighteen year olds.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I'm not even I'm not talking about little kids.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Excuse me, I am talking about little I'm talking about
what we refer to as a child.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And well doesn't know what a gun is.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
How old you're o? How old? Oh? None? But I
would say that, having just gotten through the hardest part
of teenage ery, we really should be considering these fourteen
year old to sixteen year old kiddos. And that too
because I have never seen anything so much it with
(19:17):
so much crossover as I have a two to three
year old and a fourteen fourteen, fifteen year old. As
far as decision making capacity goes, it's astounding.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Any will go ahead, you know, I'm going to We're
going to agree that that there is that there is
some similarities, and I think there's a lot of different
I want to hold you over. I want to hold
you over. It's rare that we do this on gun radio, Utah.
I want to hold you over because because we haven't
even gotten mad at each other yet, and I know
that's coming. So anyway, I'm stay tuned to gun Radio Utah.
(19:49):
When we've got lots more to come, so stay tuned.
So last we tuned in, Welcome back to gun Radio Utah. Yeah,
sometimes the technology is not there and I had to
push the button again. All right, last week too, and
we had Kerry Butler, director of the Utah Public Health Association,
and we were.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Talking about cap laws. I'm gonna give you.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
I'm gonna give you a little bit more time to
talk about cap laws, but explain to the audience what
they are, what they what they require. And I have
one more thing, how and when are they? How and
when are they utilized against a person?
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Right? Okay? So they had their varying degrees of cap laws,
and like we mentioned, we have one on on the
books in Utah. You had mentioned seventy six ten five
oh nine, and I do want to point out, Clark,
you had said that this was for all dangerous substances.
This is actually for all dangerous weapons, and it specifically
(20:50):
calls out that a violation of subsection two, the third
degree felony if that dangerous weapon is a okay to
break in berl.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Right, Okay, So Kat, actually I'm talking about seventy six
five two eight seventy six. Five two eight is the
child abuse homicide, child abuse injury and requires negligence to
one degree or another. I wasn't talking about five oh nine,
but five oh nine is specific to firearms and weapons, right,
(21:22):
So five.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
On nine is the one that I'm referring to. So
it is illegal for a for a minor to possess
the firearm, and the person who who provides that fire
firearm designed here as a responsible adult. It's a person
that is subject to the penalty. So you had asked
about cap laws. I'm telling you like, this is ours,
this is one of ours. And you had mentioned that
(21:44):
Duke University had a study recently. There have been lots
and lots of studies. There are more studies than not
that suggests that CAP laws are protective against accidental injury.
And I want to talk about that a little bit
because I don't know, and you don't know, and perhaps
some of these reach researchers don't really know what is
(22:05):
the efficacy of that CAP law. Is it because they
have the law and that there is a subsequent penalty,
or is it because people know about the law and
so therefore practice better safe storage to prevent these kinds
of injuries in the first place, and maybe you have
some thoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I do have some thoughts on that, because I don't
think there's anything I don't think there's anything magical about
a cap law, which one singles out firearms. Two, it
only comes into play. I mean, yes, there's a requirement
that you have the firearm locked up, but most of
the states that have these cap laws, it only comes
(22:43):
into play when a tragedy happens. With's fact, yes, and
that is so. In other words, you know, the only
way that you could really make a cap law, you know,
some of these liberals really happy with it, and I'm
maybe including.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Maybe including you in it.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Is to say that you have to lock up your
guns and you're subject to search. That if you own
a gun, we can come in and search your home,
and if you don't have it locked up, regardless of
if kids got hurt, that you're now in violation of law,
and then we can get you before anything happens. Because
ultimately a cap law is to make sure that your
guns are locked up, but it only comes into play afterwards.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
And I put it to you right here that.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
One is that firearms, especially in the age group of
little kids that grab a gun and accidentally shoot themselves.
We're not talking, I'm sure not talking sixteen to seventeen
year olds, and we're talking, you know, in the one
to five, one to seven, one to eight. It's the
(23:50):
it's an asterisk. It's an asterisk when you look at
the Utah Department of Health and even CDC regarding firearm
injuries accidental death. It's the drownings, burns, poisonings, chokings, falls,
that kind of stuff in the home. And why then,
does this cap law only specify the one that is
that is proportionally the tiniest and say no, right, I do.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Think it specifies the proportion that's the tiniest.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Because I'll just say it to.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yes, no, because these items in our house that people
are choking on, that that children are are are getting
into without without supervision, those things are in our homes
because they serve some other purpose.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
A firearm is in your home that serves no other
purpose than either protection or or I mean, the intent
of a firearm is to cause harm to whatever it
is that you're shooting at.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Right, And I used to disagree with that, but I absolutely,
I absolutely agree that a firearm, especially the guns used
for self defense, are used to hurt somebody.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, or it's a threatened to do so. Uh, they
absolutely are.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
And I think that's a very very appropriate purpose. But now,
but but but and even with that, even as effective
as they are in hurting somebody, and they and they
don't make any decisions as to good or bad that
so many more kids are ingesting poisons, whether it be
(25:29):
medication or poisons under the shelf. And I happened to
look under my sink and they we had some lightesol,
we had some other stuff, some bug killer.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
All of them. Do not require them to be locked up.
You know what it says. It says keep out of reach.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
So I could being a you know, an appropriate thing,
I could just put it up high if I had
little kids.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Could we could we do that with guns? But yet
Sports Council, we have.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
This woman who had her gun on the shelf, who's
three year old, got it and shot herself on the foot.
Sounds like it was up high, right, Like these accidents
and injuries are going to happen, and our job is
to prevent as many as possible. Are we going to
present prevent one hundred percent? No, we probably won't ever
get there, and that is too bad. It keeps me
(26:25):
up at night. And also like you're insinuating, Clark, that
that public health or people in general who working on
public safety are not encouraging parents to lock up their
keep keep safe their dangerous materials. They're that you're that
that that we're not encouraging parents to watch children when
they're in the swimming pool, right, like, and that's also
(26:48):
not true at all. That is a high a high
point of of our summers. Right are our advertisements in
public health and public safety reminding people how to care
for children when they're around water, when they're around choking hazards,
when they have bleach under the sink. Right we spend
millions and millions of dollars teaching parents how to how
(27:11):
to keep kids away from the chemicals.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Okay, okay, kerry, okay. With that.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
With that said, then why don't we have because you
said cap laws are one of the reasons is to
remind people about this. How come we don't have cap
laws for for for medicine. How come we don't have
how come there is no effort to penalize parents that
don't lock up their medications that don't lock up their things,
(27:37):
even though that is the proportionately so much greater danger
and injury and death to kids from.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Those right, you know, I suppose that that's a really
good question. There's something to think about there, and it's
causing me a little bit of pause. But I'm going
to push back just a little bit because because of
the nature of the firearm, like because of the purpose
of the firearm, because of the nature of the firearm,
and also because of the.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Shoot.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
My covid brain is kicking it again. What's that thing
called where it's super super violent and there's a likelihood
of death that is higher than if you maybe drink
a little bit of poison usual lethality, the lethality of
the firearm is much higher than like, say a string
that's hanging down from your blinds.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Right, And why is it that we have.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
You know, something like two hundred kids a year in
Utah die from poisonings and from poisonings, and we have
two or three from firearms.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Well, I hope the reason that we have two or
three dying from firearms is because we have done a
really good job and you have done a really good
job teaching people how to keep their firearms safely. And
it sounds to me like we need to do a
little bit more investigation.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Just before we let you go. What should happen to
the parents? What should happen to the parents in that
tragedy of the five year old that accidentally shot and
killed himself.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
It looks to me like the penalties are laid out
in seventy six five nine point four. It definitely is
not my preference because I feel so much for the parents.
And also it is a third degree felony. Sorry, I
don't know what the penalty is.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
I'm going to add to it.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, if you look at seventy six five two eight
as well, child abuse homicide is defined as the death
of a child under eighteen the results from child abuse.
Child abuse homicide can also be committed if the child
abuse is done recklessly with criminal negligence, so by something
they didn't you know that the parent didn't do.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
And it doesn't have to be a parent either.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
So I put it to you that we already have
a much stronger and this this goes all the way
from class A misdemeanor third degree felony to a second
degree felony. You can go fifteen years in prison for that.
And we have existing laws that cover way more than
just guns, but do not exclude firearms. I put it
to you that way, Carrie Butler, You're a worthy advocate
(30:21):
for your for your cause, and I appreciate you being
on Gun Radio Utah. So stay tuned. We have lots
more to talk about. We might have to have. I
like the expanding the debate, so to speak. And because
now we know you got to know what the what
the values, what the data is and that and I
will add that that I like that she didn't. She
(30:44):
didn't bring a whole lot of emotion into it. Because
Gun Radio Utah listeners we like data, we like we
like facts and that type of thing.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
So anyway, all right, so cap laws, do we need them?
Speaker 1 (30:55):
No? The answer is resoundingly no after that discussion, we
do not need them. We have existing laws that cover that.
All right, So we want to talk about in fact,
you know. So this is from the National Center for
Health Statistics, the mortality data for twenty twenty two. Your odds,
your lifetime odds of death for different things, the opioid, opioid,
(31:24):
opioid overdose, accidental, accidental, your odds are one in fifty five.
Your your odds of accidental gun discharge killing you one
in nine thousand, two hundred and eighty eight.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Just thought i'd just I'd throw that out there for you. Look,
I see you care.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Okay, now we and I have that for all sunstroke
one in you're more likely. No, yeah, you're You're twice
as likely one in four thy, one hundred and two
as you are from accidental gun discharge. And you all right,
we want to talk about Oh, so my bump stock.
(32:05):
I've always tell you about bumstock. No, the answer is no,
I do not have Oh, let's see Bill. So apparently
Bill is so far out that he can't communicate with me.
He can't communicate on the show, but he is there
enough to text me, so all right, and he's giving
little critiques in that. So bump stock I don't have it.
(32:29):
But I did get communication from my attorney, because everything
goes through my attorneys in DC and then to the
ATF and then to their attorneys and then back and forth.
So apparently now I have a new person that is
the point of contact for me to get my bump stock,
of which Justice Jill Parrish with Tenth Circuit said that
the ATF has to give back.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
But boy are they dragging this out. And I'm being chill.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
I'm being chill because I want to make sure that
that I'm doing everything right and that I don't put
myself in, you know, in some the wrong way. And
I read I read some communication between my attorney and
their attorney and it said, yes, you know, the federal
judge did say that he can have his bump stock back.
But remember some states have banned bump stocks in their
(33:15):
own state, and so he's going to have to make
sure that his own state doesn't well you know what, Utah,
we don't ban bump stocks. So anyway, all right, so
I will keep your prize. I'm hoping, I'm hoping, fingers
crossed that it's this week and uh, maybe we'll live
stream it. Okay, so we've got that. And oh, you
(33:35):
got to go check out flash my Brash. Go to
flash my braas dot com. I think it's flash my
Brass dot com something like that. I think I think
that's it. Fantastic deals. They've got a Labor Day sale
going on. I know they're open until like five o'clock today,
So you got like an hour after the show. We'll
just play the show in the car on the way
over there, all right, And so yeah, flash my brass
(33:56):
really good deals five five, six, two, two, three, nine
milimeters forty four twelve gay shotgun stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And and they even have they have.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Some weird calibers too, I mean some some of the
Swiss calibers and that kind of thing. I want to
make sure let's see we got that. Oh the yeah,
the ATF they lost they lost yet another in another
round on the pistol brace thing, and it's it's slowly
dying a you know, the death just like well, not
(34:26):
quite as bad as bump stocks.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
But anyway, is that the Fifth Circuit Court in.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Uh last week did a summary judgment, which basically means,
you know what, I know you both both sides have
more to say, but I'm just going to make a
judgment right now that nothing you say is going to
change anything. And Bill says, Bill said he'll get his
tax return before.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I get my bump stock. Yeah, all right, we're gonna
put some put some money on that bill.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
And so yeah, yeah, summary judgment. And it wasn't on
Second Amendment grounds. This is important to note it wasn't
because we have a right to have a pistol brace
and it's in the Second Amendment. Blah blah blah. No,
this is the way the I think this is even bigger.
It's the way the ATF handled this. It's the way
the ATF handled it. Is was a violation of their
(35:17):
administrative abilities under the APA, the Administrative Procedures Act, and
that's how it was ruled. Hey, next week, we want
to I want to go over. I wanted to do
it this week, but I ran out of time. Next week,
we're going to talk about Sigourney Weaver. She was on
the board of Handgun Control and oh, she has just
(35:40):
just railed on guns and this kind of stuff, and
we're gonna we're gonna talk a little bit about that
next week because if you've ever seen her movies with Alien,
especially BOYD, does she shoot the guns not just the
regular guns, but pulse weapons and machine guns and flame throwers,
And we're going to see it. Got a little insight.
(36:01):
There was a little insight into how she talked to
the director and that type of stuff with regards to guns,
because she even mentioned, Hey, I'm on the board for
handgun Control and I don't.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Want to do these guns.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Well, wait till you find out what changed her mind
at least with regards to that. All right, hey, take
somebody out shooting and clean up after yourself. Be careful
out there, and you know, as always, as we've said before,
if you've got a firearm and you've got it accessible
to someone who shouldn't have it accessible, check right now
as we're thinking, is it secured against unauthorized access? If
(36:38):
you're just home alone, Hey, you're fine, but you know,
always make sure and double check that. Until next week,
Thank you very much, hopefully Bill will be back.
Yeah, we have a we have a jam pack show
for you today. Missing today, Missing is Bill Petterson, director
of Utah Shooting Sports Council, and he is I think
he's archery hunting.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
He's killing something. I know it might be fishing.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
You know, I'm not one hundred percent, sir, But he
did say he was going to be out of cell
range and mobile range and everything.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So we need to get billium.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
We need to get billiam A a satellite phone and
have him call in on satellite. So let me tell
you what we've got going today. I'm going to give
you an update on on my bump stock. Yeah, we'll
give you an update on the bump stock. And we're
going to talk about, Oh, the the ATF got shot
down again in in Fifth Circuit Court and that's on
(00:47):
the pistol brace thing. And I mean it's it was
a summary judgment to give you an idea. So it was,
you know, I'm going to kind of explain it a
little bit. It wasn't really based on Second Amendment grounds,
but nonetheless, nonetheless, and Oregon, Oregon just passed a lot.
It goes into effect. I think this last week or
(01:08):
maybe this or maybe Monday or Tuesday because Monday's a
labor day. But anyway, on ghost guns, Casey Jane, Casey Jane,
we should probably go to our Halloween parties as ghost guns.
That would be I don't know what the outfit would
look like, but anyway, just something without a serial number
on it. We're going to talk a little bit about
(01:29):
ghost guns and what are they and what are they not?
All right, We're also going to well, do you have
a gun at home? If you're listening to gun radio Utah, yeah,
you probably have a gun at home.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
In fact, funny funny thing.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
So I was sitting there doing some review, I don't know,
I'll say I was doing radio or show prep or something,
and knock at the door, ring the doorbell, and I
checked the camera real quick. It's my neighbor, and we're
out here in beautiful You went to county in the
county at Ghost Eye Manor, and the neighbor comes by
and he was going to he's looking at the north
(02:10):
property and the south property to mow it down for me.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
He's got this big brushog kind of thing that does that.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Anyway, So I wanted to go out there with him
and kind of figure out where he's you know what
areas he's going to do in that? So I came
to the door and he says, hey, you want to
go walk the property. I says, yeah, hang on just
a second, let me grab my gun in case I
see that that stupid skunk that's been around. And he says, oh, well,
I've got mine. I says, yeah, but I want my home.
So anyway, that's the area that we live. And no,
(02:37):
we did not see the skunk. We didn't see it.
But I'm thinking the dogs may find the skunk before
I do. I hope that's not the case. So anyway,
so we've got that. Do you have a gun at home?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Though?
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So right now, think if you're listening, if you're in
the car, if you're at home, if you're at the office,
if you're in the garage, and you keep a firearm
at home, home for defensive purposes obviously not for hunting.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Right there? Where is the gun? How far away is it?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
If something happened but bam, right now somebody comes in
off the street or whatever, could you access that firearm
where you are? No cheating, but where you are right now?
Are your arms reach your way?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
For? Is it on you? Right now. Good for you? Anyway?
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Is it is it fully loaded? Is it has got
around in the chamber? Can you operate it with one hand?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
You know? So on and so forth. I'm just I'm
just kind of curious.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Also, we're going to broach the subject in the second
in the second segment, we're going to have one of
my favorite liberals on that. Anyway, We're gonna have Kerry
Butler on and Carrie is, uh, yeah, she's she's unapologetically
I don't I don't want to say she's anti gun,
(03:56):
but we'll let her describe what she is.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
You decide.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And we're going to talk about cap laws, child access
prevention laws. Do we need them here in Utah because
of the one the huge tragedy of a little five
year old that that died as a result of a
gunshot wound that was self inflicted accidentally, obviously accidentally, and
a two year old, no, no, a three, just take
(04:21):
that back, a three year old, I want to say,
in Magnum who apparently discharged around from mom's twenty two
got to his foot. So we're going to talk about
child access prevention laws. And I'm not going to give
it away as to which direction I'm going on this,
So we'll let we'll let well, I think we're going
(04:42):
to have I think we're going to have a lively
discussion that could be. It's going to be a lively
discussion I think with with miss carry Butler. So and
I've got another I got another question for you. What
and maybe you know, maybe we'll we'll save a huge
discussion on this till when Kerry gets here. What should
(05:05):
happen to the parents? Is there a law? Is there
a law that could be utilized? Is there a penalty?
Is there a law that was broken when for each
of the parents? And no, I'm not don't get me going.
I mean, yes, it's a tragedy and I'm not looking
to do anything beyond what we've got right now. And
(05:28):
do we need to rethink what we have right now?
But we're going to talk about that. We're going to
talk about the laws that come into play. Does uta
even have a penalty for leaving a gun out? So
I'll get anyway, Yes we do. I'll give you a
little hint.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
On that one.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
All right, let's go to I do want to talk
about Well, we don't really have a lot of time
to talk about the Oregon Ghost gun Band. So you
know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get this done
right now. Do you have a gun that he's broken,
the stock is cracked, it's got a big scratch in
(06:04):
the finish. You have a missing part and it's an
older gun and you just can't find the part for
an extract or a magazine, maybe even I don't know,
a front sight has been knocked off.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You just want some customizing. Maybe you want it read.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
You've got a rifle that you want to use for
deer hunt, you want it rechambered to a more popular
or more effective cartridge. Get that gun over to the gunsmith,
a sportsman's warehouse. The gunsmith a sportsman's warehouse can really
they can evaluate your firearm for you. They can tell
you what's needed, and they can tell you some options.
They can talk. I mean, just fantastic gunsmiths that specialize
(06:46):
in different things. Some of them specialize in nothing but
remy to eight seventy shotguns, you know, and they can
do wonders with that. But whatever you need, including sarah
cooting and engraving and refinishing, rebluing, whatever it is, get
it over to the gun Smith is sixteen thirty South
fifty seventy West. That's sixteen thirty South fifty seventy west
in Salt Lake City. You can give them a call
(07:07):
at eight oh one three zero four eighty seventy It's
eight o one three zero four eighty seventy zero. You
can drop it off at any of the over one
hundred and forty five Sportsmen's Warehouse locations and they will
get it to the gunsmith and.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Get it worked done for you. Then they'll give you
a call.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Mike over there will give you a call and find
out what exactly do you want, what exactly is the
issue with it, and that type of thing. So, all right,
when we come back, we're going to have Carry Butler
on and we're gonna we're gonna we're going to delve
into this. We're going to delve into this kids and
guns when we come back on Gun Radio Utah.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
So stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I am Clark Aposian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports
Council and a host of Gun Radio Utah. No apologies,
and keeping in line with the no apologies, we're going
to bring on right now. Carry Butler. Kerry is the
director of the Utah Public Health Association and your uh
and you do lobby and you do lobby and you
(08:08):
do outreach and that kind of stuff and uh and
and you're completely one hundred percent basically anti gun.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Is that right? Can I characterize you correctly? Is there
anything wrong without what I just said?
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Now? I would like to collect them own, put them
in a pile and melt them into a statue and
you know, high five of them every time I walked,
Just kidding, just kidding. I do not want to do that.
But yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Don't, not yet, Not yet, you don't, not yet, you don't.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Yeah, let's see, let's see what we want to do
in the meantime.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So with regards to guns, what does the U p
h A, what are they? What's their focus with with
regarding guns in Utah? And I know I realized it's
the only thing that you do, but.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yeah, yeah, I do want to say that we have
a very broad, uh a very broad understanding of what
is public health right and generally speaking, anything that we
can do to address issues that are preventable disease, violence, injury,
et cetera, that is a preventable issue that is community based.
(09:17):
That's something that we might engage ourselves and in public health.
So anything from you know, vaccination against polio, which we're
hearing a lot about in the Middle East right now,
to encouraging safe car seat use in vehicles. Those are
the things that we'll focus on. And as far as
(09:38):
gun violence goes in our organization recently passed a resolution
to work towards UH work forward the Public Health Solution
to prevent accidental injury and intentional injury and death from
firearms as a public as a public safety offering.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So look at that aw are injured in car accidents
quite a bit. In fact, we're eating saying actually a
little bit of an uptick in that the car. Is
it an epidemic right now of car accidents?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Well, I think it's an endemic, which means I think
it's endemic.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
It's something that just is part of where we are
in the development of the world, where most of the
things we do are in cars, most of the places
we go are in vehicles. And from a public health perspective,
we have to understand that cars are a part of life.
Cars are a part of the foundation of our society,
and so we work really hard to keep people as
(10:40):
safe as possible in those cars.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Okay, right, have you been reading the news reasearch?
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Yeah, And answer to your question, I wouldn't say epidemic.
I would say endemic, and I would say that we
work really really hard to make sure that we reduce
as much as possible those numbers measures like spells and
and and safety measures and you know one of those
things called it pop out if you crash. Oh, Harry Clark,
(11:10):
I just had COVID.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
My brain is dumb, it's probably did you get it?
Did you get a shot for it? Did you get
a shot for the COVID priority?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I think I got it from the shot. Yeah, I
think it's I have.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Heard that getting the shot for it does tend to
affect the brain waves and that kind of stuff, so
anyway in.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
A negative way. So moving right along. Have you been
watching the news?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Did you hear the tragedy about the five year old
and the also very troubling news about a three year old,
both involving parents firearms.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Did you hear about that? What were your thoughts on
What were your thoughts on those two?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
You know, I think that both of those things are
tragic for you know, the on their faith value. It's terrible.
It's just terrible to encounter that. It's hard for the neighborhood.
It's going to be really hard for that family. You know,
it will forever.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah. Yeah, Let's let's recount what happened. Apparently with the
five year old who was was fatally shot, and he
was somewhere in a different part of the house.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Mom and dad were home.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
And he somehow accessed a nine milimeter handgun and uh
and ultimately fired a shot that killed him. And you know,
the parents, parents ran to them, but they were unsuccessful
to revive him ultimately. And in the case I believe
in Magna, mom got home and put a twenty two
(12:48):
caliber some type of handgun enough pistol or revolver, but
put it on.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
The shelf and she walked away.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
And essentially, I take it, I'm assuming the elf was
generally out of reach, and she heard a crash while
she was in a different part of the house, and
then she heard the report of a firearm, you know,
a gunshot, and she came and found that her children
had discharged around from the twenty two into his foot
(13:18):
and he had to be taken to Primary Children's and
surgery was done and.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
That kind of stuff so rare.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
What what do you think this was a result of
or could you characterize it in in a comedy?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, you know, I think I think what do you think?
I mean, I don't know without being inside the homes
of these of these folks, and again it's it's super
tragic and as a parent, I really my heart goes
out to these families. And also when you have a
firearm in the home, there are certain protocols that that
should be followed to make sure that your kids are
(13:54):
very safe, and those include storage, Those include keeping the
I mean separate from the gun. There are some best practices,
and I think our job, Clark, in public health is
to teach people the best practices for safety and then
enforce those best practices as much as we can, especially
when we're talking about these tiny little kiddos, right, who
(14:16):
who whose job is almost to get into trouble, to
climb up on shelves to find things they're not supposed
to touch? Right?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
It is the only kid my job?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Okay, So are you proposing and so are you saying
it's for the kids though, I mean we're talking about kids.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
We want to protect the kids, right, I mean.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
We want to protect everybody, right but.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Right, yeah, and we don't want little kids to get hurt.
What what's the what's the major cause? Since we're talking
about a three year old and a five year old,
let's go zero to five, what's the what's the leading
cause of death and or injury? What's the leading cause
of death under or injury to little kids? Zero to five?
That's preventive, not and I'm talking injury. What do you
(15:04):
think that is injury?
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I would say zero to five is likely car accidents
in that zero to five ring.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Okay, in fact, let's stick it right in the home.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
You are correct, but let's now stick it and I'm
going to further filter it by saying, in the home,
what is the leading cause of injury in the home.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
My guess is it's probably uh, poison, all right.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Ding ding ding, It is okay, get very good, very good. Falls, choking, choking,
and or drowning is also in there.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Burns, yeah, and so.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So my question then, so drowning, falls, poisonings, burns, and
that poisons can be everything from medication, over the counter, prescription, recreational,
and it can also be you know, stuff that's under
you or sinc.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
You know that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
How your life, all your cleaning solutions and even pesticides
in that right? What tell me? And so with that
in mind, tell us about cap laws? What what does
caps stand for? And what does a cap law hope
to do? Are you in favor of cap laws? By
the way?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Uh? You know, I think that I am in favor
of cap laws the most. The most up to date
research on gun violence prevention policies and regulations suggest that
there is a positive correlation between states who have cap
laws and reductions of accidental injury for these little for
these zero to eighteen category.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
One from the Duke University.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Okay, okay, So I just read a study from the
Duke University that examined gun laws. Did it in the
back way, examined gun laws and their effectiveness, and they
found that cap laws really didn't you know, And they
looked at states that had them and states it didn't
have them, and they didn't see a correlation between the
cap law and that. But that was one study out
of Duke University in Duke.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I mean, you know, come on, anyway, I don't really
know any.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
What is it?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
So?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
What does a cap law do when does it come
into effect?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Right, So our state actually has a little baby cap law.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
So basically what it says is if you're if your
kiddo uses a firearm that is unsecured, that you are
culpable as the adult parent in the in the home.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
And I think Clark, you'll know this way better than
I will. But I think in our state it's like
a third degree felony maybe, or maybe it's an even
as mean.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Actually it goes it depends if it was intentionally or
knowingly recklessly or criminal negligence. It can go from a
class A misdemeanor to a third degree felony to a
second degree felony.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And it isn't firearms specific.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Though, it's not firearms specific, and so what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I want to say, Nope, it's yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Seventy six five two eight is the code, and it
hinges on it's basically child abuse, child abuse, child abuse, neglect,
child abuse, injury, child abuse, homicide, and it hinges on
the degree of negligence. And it does not mention I
(18:26):
don't think it mentions firearm anywhere in there. So it's
any dangerous item, which is I'm going to say, very
important because the vast, vast majority of childhood and when
I'm talking childhood, I'm not including eighteen year olds.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I'm not even I'm not talking about little kids.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Excuse me, I am talking about little I'm talking about
what we refer to as a child.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And well doesn't know what a gun is.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
How old you're o? How old? Oh? None? But I
would say that, having just gotten through the hardest part
of teenage ery, we really should be considering these fourteen
year old to sixteen year old kiddos. And that too
because I have never seen anything so much it with
(19:17):
so much crossover as I have a two to three
year old and a fourteen fourteen, fifteen year old. As
far as decision making capacity goes, it's astounding.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Any will go ahead, you know, I'm going to We're
going to agree that that there is that there is
some similarities, and I think there's a lot of different
I want to hold you over. I want to hold
you over. It's rare that we do this on gun radio, Utah.
I want to hold you over because because we haven't
even gotten mad at each other yet, and I know
that's coming. So anyway, I'm stay tuned to gun Radio Utah.
(19:49):
When we've got lots more to come, so stay tuned.
So last we tuned in, Welcome back to gun Radio Utah. Yeah,
sometimes the technology is not there and I had to
push the button again. All right, last week too, and
we had Kerry Butler, director of the Utah Public Health Association,
and we were.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Talking about cap laws. I'm gonna give you.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
I'm gonna give you a little bit more time to
talk about cap laws, but explain to the audience what
they are, what they what they require. And I have
one more thing, how and when are they? How and
when are they utilized against a person?
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Right? Okay? So they had their varying degrees of cap laws,
and like we mentioned, we have one on on the
books in Utah. You had mentioned seventy six ten five
oh nine, and I do want to point out, Clark,
you had said that this was for all dangerous substances.
This is actually for all dangerous weapons, and it specifically
(20:50):
calls out that a violation of subsection two, the third
degree felony if that dangerous weapon is a okay to
break in berl.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Right, Okay, So Kat, actually I'm talking about seventy six
five two eight seventy six. Five two eight is the
child abuse homicide, child abuse injury and requires negligence to
one degree or another. I wasn't talking about five oh nine,
but five oh nine is specific to firearms and weapons, right,
(21:22):
So five.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
On nine is the one that I'm referring to. So
it is illegal for a for a minor to possess
the firearm, and the person who who provides that fire
firearm designed here as a responsible adult. It's a person
that is subject to the penalty. So you had asked
about cap laws. I'm telling you like, this is ours,
this is one of ours. And you had mentioned that
(21:44):
Duke University had a study recently. There have been lots
and lots of studies. There are more studies than not
that suggests that CAP laws are protective against accidental injury.
And I want to talk about that a little bit
because I don't know, and you don't know, and perhaps
some of these reach researchers don't really know what is
(22:05):
the efficacy of that CAP law. Is it because they
have the law and that there is a subsequent penalty,
or is it because people know about the law and
so therefore practice better safe storage to prevent these kinds
of injuries in the first place, and maybe you have
some thoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I do have some thoughts on that, because I don't
think there's anything I don't think there's anything magical about
a cap law, which one singles out firearms. Two, it
only comes into play. I mean, yes, there's a requirement
that you have the firearm locked up, but most of
the states that have these cap laws, it only comes
(22:43):
into play when a tragedy happens. With's fact, yes, and
that is so. In other words, you know, the only
way that you could really make a cap law, you know,
some of these liberals really happy with it, and I'm
maybe including.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Maybe including you in it.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Is to say that you have to lock up your
guns and you're subject to search. That if you own
a gun, we can come in and search your home,
and if you don't have it locked up, regardless of
if kids got hurt, that you're now in violation of law,
and then we can get you before anything happens. Because
ultimately a cap law is to make sure that your
guns are locked up, but it only comes into play afterwards.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
And I put it to you right here that.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
One is that firearms, especially in the age group of
little kids that grab a gun and accidentally shoot themselves.
We're not talking, I'm sure not talking sixteen to seventeen
year olds, and we're talking, you know, in the one
to five, one to seven, one to eight. It's the
(23:50):
it's an asterisk. It's an asterisk when you look at
the Utah Department of Health and even CDC regarding firearm
injuries accidental death. It's the drownings, burns, poisonings, chokings, falls,
that kind of stuff in the home. And why then,
does this cap law only specify the one that is
that is proportionally the tiniest and say no, right, I do.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Think it specifies the proportion that's the tiniest.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Because I'll just say it to.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yes, no, because these items in our house that people
are choking on, that that children are are are getting
into without without supervision, those things are in our homes
because they serve some other purpose.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
A firearm is in your home that serves no other
purpose than either protection or or I mean, the intent
of a firearm is to cause harm to whatever it
is that you're shooting at.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Right, And I used to disagree with that, but I absolutely,
I absolutely agree that a firearm, especially the guns used
for self defense, are used to hurt somebody.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, or it's a threatened to do so. Uh, they
absolutely are.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
And I think that's a very very appropriate purpose. But now,
but but but and even with that, even as effective
as they are in hurting somebody, and they and they
don't make any decisions as to good or bad that
so many more kids are ingesting poisons, whether it be
(25:29):
medication or poisons under the shelf. And I happened to
look under my sink and they we had some lightesol,
we had some other stuff, some bug killer.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
All of them. Do not require them to be locked up.
You know what it says. It says keep out of reach.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
So I could being a you know, an appropriate thing,
I could just put it up high if I had
little kids.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Could we could we do that with guns? But yet
Sports Council, we have.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
This woman who had her gun on the shelf, who's
three year old, got it and shot herself on the foot.
Sounds like it was up high, right, Like these accidents
and injuries are going to happen, and our job is
to prevent as many as possible. Are we going to
present prevent one hundred percent? No, we probably won't ever
get there, and that is too bad. It keeps me
(26:25):
up at night. And also like you're insinuating, Clark, that
that public health or people in general who working on
public safety are not encouraging parents to lock up their
keep keep safe their dangerous materials. They're that you're that
that that we're not encouraging parents to watch children when
they're in the swimming pool, right, like, and that's also
(26:48):
not true at all. That is a high a high
point of of our summers. Right are our advertisements in
public health and public safety reminding people how to care
for children when they're around water, when they're around choking hazards,
when they have bleach under the sink. Right we spend
millions and millions of dollars teaching parents how to how
(27:11):
to keep kids away from the chemicals.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Okay, okay, kerry, okay. With that.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
With that said, then why don't we have because you
said cap laws are one of the reasons is to
remind people about this. How come we don't have cap
laws for for for medicine. How come we don't have
how come there is no effort to penalize parents that
don't lock up their medications that don't lock up their things,
(27:37):
even though that is the proportionately so much greater danger
and injury and death to kids from.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Those right, you know, I suppose that that's a really
good question. There's something to think about there, and it's
causing me a little bit of pause. But I'm going
to push back just a little bit because because of
the nature of the firearm, like because of the purpose
of the firearm, because of the nature of the firearm,
and also because of the.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Shoot.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
My covid brain is kicking it again. What's that thing
called where it's super super violent and there's a likelihood
of death that is higher than if you maybe drink
a little bit of poison usual lethality, the lethality of
the firearm is much higher than like, say a string
that's hanging down from your blinds.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Right, And why is it that we have.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
You know, something like two hundred kids a year in
Utah die from poisonings and from poisonings, and we have
two or three from firearms.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Well, I hope the reason that we have two or
three dying from firearms is because we have done a
really good job and you have done a really good
job teaching people how to keep their firearms safely. And
it sounds to me like we need to do a
little bit more investigation.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Just before we let you go. What should happen to
the parents? What should happen to the parents in that
tragedy of the five year old that accidentally shot and
killed himself.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
It looks to me like the penalties are laid out
in seventy six five nine point four. It definitely is
not my preference because I feel so much for the parents.
And also it is a third degree felony. Sorry, I
don't know what the penalty is.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
I'm going to add to it.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, if you look at seventy six five two eight
as well, child abuse homicide is defined as the death
of a child under eighteen the results from child abuse.
Child abuse homicide can also be committed if the child
abuse is done recklessly with criminal negligence, so by something
they didn't you know that the parent didn't do.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
And it doesn't have to be a parent either.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
So I put it to you that we already have
a much stronger and this this goes all the way
from class A misdemeanor third degree felony to a second
degree felony. You can go fifteen years in prison for that.
And we have existing laws that cover way more than
just guns, but do not exclude firearms. I put it
to you that way, Carrie Butler, You're a worthy advocate
(30:21):
for your for your cause, and I appreciate you being
on Gun Radio Utah. So stay tuned. We have lots
more to talk about. We might have to have. I
like the expanding the debate, so to speak. And because
now we know you got to know what the what
the values, what the data is and that and I
will add that that I like that she didn't. She
(30:44):
didn't bring a whole lot of emotion into it. Because
Gun Radio Utah listeners we like data, we like we
like facts and that type of thing.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
So anyway, all right, so cap laws, do we need them?
Speaker 1 (30:55):
No? The answer is resoundingly no after that discussion, we
do not need them. We have existing laws that cover that.
All right, So we want to talk about in fact,
you know. So this is from the National Center for
Health Statistics, the mortality data for twenty twenty two. Your odds,
your lifetime odds of death for different things, the opioid, opioid,
(31:24):
opioid overdose, accidental, accidental, your odds are one in fifty five.
Your your odds of accidental gun discharge killing you one
in nine thousand, two hundred and eighty eight.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Just thought i'd just I'd throw that out there for you. Look,
I see you care.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Okay, now we and I have that for all sunstroke
one in you're more likely. No, yeah, you're You're twice
as likely one in four thy, one hundred and two
as you are from accidental gun discharge. And you all right,
we want to talk about Oh, so my bump stock.
(32:05):
I've always tell you about bumstock. No, the answer is no,
I do not have Oh, let's see Bill. So apparently
Bill is so far out that he can't communicate with me.
He can't communicate on the show, but he is there
enough to text me, so all right, and he's giving
little critiques in that. So bump stock I don't have it.
(32:29):
But I did get communication from my attorney, because everything
goes through my attorneys in DC and then to the
ATF and then to their attorneys and then back and forth.
So apparently now I have a new person that is
the point of contact for me to get my bump stock,
of which Justice Jill Parrish with Tenth Circuit said that
the ATF has to give back.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
But boy are they dragging this out. And I'm being chill.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
I'm being chill because I want to make sure that
that I'm doing everything right and that I don't put
myself in, you know, in some the wrong way. And
I read I read some communication between my attorney and
their attorney and it said, yes, you know, the federal
judge did say that he can have his bump stock back.
But remember some states have banned bump stocks in their
(33:15):
own state, and so he's going to have to make
sure that his own state doesn't well you know what, Utah,
we don't ban bump stocks. So anyway, all right, so
I will keep your prize. I'm hoping, I'm hoping, fingers
crossed that it's this week and uh, maybe we'll live
stream it. Okay, so we've got that. And oh, you
(33:35):
got to go check out flash my Brash. Go to
flash my braas dot com. I think it's flash my
Brass dot com something like that. I think I think
that's it. Fantastic deals. They've got a Labor Day sale
going on. I know they're open until like five o'clock today,
So you got like an hour after the show. We'll
just play the show in the car on the way
over there, all right, And so yeah, flash my brass
(33:56):
really good deals five five, six, two, two, three, nine
milimeters forty four twelve gay shotgun stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And and they even have they have.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Some weird calibers too, I mean some some of the
Swiss calibers and that kind of thing. I want to
make sure let's see we got that. Oh the yeah,
the ATF they lost they lost yet another in another
round on the pistol brace thing, and it's it's slowly
dying a you know, the death just like well, not
(34:26):
quite as bad as bump stocks.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
But anyway, is that the Fifth Circuit Court in.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Uh last week did a summary judgment, which basically means,
you know what, I know you both both sides have
more to say, but I'm just going to make a
judgment right now that nothing you say is going to
change anything. And Bill says, Bill said he'll get his
tax return before.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I get my bump stock. Yeah, all right, we're gonna
put some put some money on that bill.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
And so yeah, yeah, summary judgment. And it wasn't on
Second Amendment grounds. This is important to note it wasn't
because we have a right to have a pistol brace
and it's in the Second Amendment. Blah blah blah. No,
this is the way the I think this is even bigger.
It's the way the ATF handled this. It's the way
the ATF handled it. Is was a violation of their
(35:17):
administrative abilities under the APA, the Administrative Procedures Act, and
that's how it was ruled. Hey, next week, we want
to I want to go over. I wanted to do
it this week, but I ran out of time. Next week,
we're going to talk about Sigourney Weaver. She was on
the board of Handgun Control and oh, she has just
(35:40):
just railed on guns and this kind of stuff, and
we're gonna we're gonna talk a little bit about that
next week because if you've ever seen her movies with Alien,
especially BOYD, does she shoot the guns not just the
regular guns, but pulse weapons and machine guns and flame throwers,
And we're going to see it. Got a little insight.
(36:01):
There was a little insight into how she talked to
the director and that type of stuff with regards to guns,
because she even mentioned, Hey, I'm on the board for
handgun Control and I don't.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Want to do these guns.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Well, wait till you find out what changed her mind
at least with regards to that. All right, hey, take
somebody out shooting and clean up after yourself. Be careful
out there, and you know, as always, as we've said before,
if you've got a firearm and you've got it accessible
to someone who shouldn't have it accessible, check right now
as we're thinking, is it secured against unauthorized access? If
(36:38):
you're just home alone, Hey, you're fine, but you know,
always make sure and double check that. Until next week,
Thank you very much, hopefully Bill will be back.
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