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September 10, 2025 52 mins
Join host Jason Bryant as he talks with 2024 National Wrestling Media Association Journalist of the Year Kyle Klingman on the latest episode of the Short Time Wrestling Podcast.

On the run-up to the 2025 World Championships, we revisit the early years recording podcasts in Minnesota basements with Wrestling 411, dive into a shared love of historical deep dives and unearth some interesting facts about the most recent lineup release from Iowa State that Kyle shared on Flowrestling last week. 

We dive into women’s wrestling’s college history and some of the key things about it, including Kyle’s podcast with co-host Scott Beck, Women’s Wrestling Weekly. 

Want an ad-free version of the show AND the best in wrestling news from around the world? Sign up for the Daily Wrestling Newsletter presented by Resilite on Substack at https://www.mattalkonline.com/news


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Short Time Wrestling Podcast: Episode 792 –Recorded September 10, 2025.
Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Whoa, it's a short time wrestling podcast here coming at
you before we head to the World Championships. But it's
not just me today. We're gonna go Blast in the

(00:21):
Past because when you think recording podcasts about wrestling in
basements in Minnesota, there is only one name you can
add to this equation, and it's this guy, Kyle Klingman
from Flow Sports. Are right, We're Kyle. We're coming up
on the seventeen year anniversary of the launch of the
U I guess we can say it now. Ill Fated

(00:42):
Wrestling for one one which we were interrupted by multiple things.
We were talking right before we started about you can't
think about recording in a basement Minnesota without thinking about
my old roommate Joe Bush and how we recorded there
in Arden Hills and the things we know now compared
to the things we just did. So yeah, Blast in
the past time time.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Those were wild times, being in the basement and not
knowing what we're doing, not knowing the direction, not knowing
if we're going to get paid, not knowing why we
would get paid for what we're doing. There's so many things,
but as I've articulated, it was the worst slash best
year of my life because it was terrible in the moment,
but everything I'm doing I owe to that year in

(01:21):
some way because it was the playbook for what I'm
doing now. So a lot of fundamental lessons that I
took from that that I'm applying today. So I have
no regrets.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, same thing, because you know, when we we've we've
talked about this kind of when we do the whole
four one one anniversary, you know, we do it every
couple of years because right now, seventeen is not like
a round number. I think the last time we did
something like this and talked about it was fifteen, which
is a nice, nice solid number, but you know, nobody
does seventeen year anniversaries for anything. So yeah, I you know,

(01:54):
went from for us arresting you went back to the museum.
And what's what's interesting is how, you know, years go
by and we're still kindkind of in the same lanes,
only we're doing things at different speeds. Because the impetus
behind having Kyle on today in case you're wondering, no,
it's not his birthday that I know of. No, we
geek out about wrestling stats all the time, and sometimes

(02:16):
you end up in a text message back and forth
and it's say, dude, we should talk about this, and
that's kind of what happened, Kyle. If you are unaware,
go to flow wrestling dot orgon you've got a lot
of these. Of course, he's covering the women's wrestling, in
which he was recently named the National Wrestling Media Association's
Journalists of the Year. Heavily based on creating a women's
college beat and doing a phenomenal job at it, but

(02:38):
has a lot of historical deep dives. So we've seen
the Oklahoma State lineup, most recently released the Iowa State lineup,
and I've been helping him dig out some missing pieces
from history. And when we're digging through that history, we
come across some really random things that just would never happen.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Today, never happen and you get a historical look. And
it started with doing the University of Iowa lineup looks
since nineteen seventy three. Then it was Penn State, then
it was Oklahoma State and Iowa State, and then probably
Minnesota's next. But you really get a historical look of
what changed, what were the weight classes shift, how did

(03:13):
you qualify, and what were the reasons for qualifying going
from regionals to the conference tournament, and you really have
to dig into why things happened the way they do.
And I think, especially with those four programs, just having
your name on that list as a badge of honor,
whether you won a championship or an All American, even
qualified to say I was an Iowa Hawkeye and I

(03:34):
was in the lineup for the postseason. That comes with
some clout and some credibility because everyone wants to do it.
Working at the Gable Museum, I saw so many people
lie about their credentials, whether they said my grandpa made
an Olympic team. Of course, everyone wanted to say I
wrestled for Gable. Then you scouted out and they didn't.
I love proving people wrong that way and sniffing out lies.

(03:55):
It was one of my favorite things to do at
the Gable Museum because it happened all the time. But
this is just a fun look because it's super basic
when you think about how fun could that be to
list out lineups? But then you go through and you
start asking questions and why was this person here? Why
did this person miss out? And then there were just
these oddities of this person was there, and then you

(04:16):
found out some articles about why they missed the postseason
because of some academic in eligibility. So it's just fun
to dive through those. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
I think when when I was looking through the Oklahoma
State one, a couple of them showed up back in
the day and we're going back and it's like, okay,
this one missed weight. And what also I found interesting
is the names that we're reading. Because you know, full disclosure,
I use a lot of newspapers dot Com, which has
been one of the best subscriptions I have as a
as a historians, as somebody likes to go back and

(04:47):
find results and archive things. I go through and the
names I'm seeing, I'm seeing stories written by Bob Dellinger,
who unfortunately I never met. Both you and I have
one awards named after him. But then you see, you know,
like Wayne bish j Carl Geiman still out there right,
and you're seeing all these names, John Klein, just names
from those oak homepapers. Then you go to the to

(05:07):
the Iowa papers and you're seeing those names. You're like,
my good, I mean, they've been writing forever, especially in Oklahoma,
where you know you have people writing wrestling college wrestling
in the daily newspapers for like forty to fifty years,
so you know, a treasure trove of information. And then
then we get to Iowa State, which is some weird
things because we saw at one point what started off.
I think it was what seventy three. Is that where

(05:29):
we found or was it seventy two where Steve Lampei
was the starter and then he wasn't at the national tournaments.
And this is what got all the gears rolling because
I discovered that that was the year of the regionals.
I knew there was a gap between the NCAA tournament
being open and going to conference qualifiers, and that was
that one of those gap years where it was a

(05:49):
true regional, which again in practice, we did it before
and it did not turn out. Well, you entered somebody
at the Big eight tournament, Well they weren't your entry
at the regional tournament. So and then that person that
was the entry at Steve Lampy's weight didn't make weight
at the regional. So Steve Lampy, hey, you placed at
the Big Eights. Season's over. Oh the guy got in

(06:10):
front of you that you got replaced for didn't make weight.
And I was just like, oh, what a gut punch,
and then we get to I think, what was it?
It was the two guys from I was. I forgive
me for having it not and having it in front
of me. But again the conversation is important. The day
before Nationals they're ruled ineligible. That doesn't happen these days, well,
Tyler Brennan, notwithstanding, you know, we don't have situations like that.

(06:33):
But you know, I guess once in the bloom, and
we do have it in this case.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
And again, how you find the information is just as
fun because once you see it listed, you don't understand
the process. So the other thing, too is I'm going
through track wrestling results, and then it gets to a
point where you can't use that, and so I'm going
to your almanac, I'm going to wrestling stats dot Com
looking things up that way. And then a lot of
times I'll just Google search. You'll go to maybe the

(06:58):
lineup and they'll have the schedules and you can go
back there and see what the lineups were. But then
you hit that point where you really have to rely
on what's available, and then you have to go back
to the archives. So it's just so fun when you
can go ten for ten, ten for ten, ten for ten,
and then you get into that situation where I had
to contact you, so I would have listed all out

(07:18):
and say, Jason, here's what I'm missing, and then you
went and found it in the archives.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
So I just sit there and I'm just like, oh goodie,
because you know for giant nerds. I'm sitting here earlier today,
by the way, recording this September tenth, two pm Central time,
I leave to go to Croatia at an eight o'clock flight,
so I'm leaving here around five to get through traffic,
you know, do the Andrew Spay Lounge. Living with this

(07:43):
long flight hit up Stone Arch, which, by the way,
for those who don't know, I'm a big craft beer snob.
Stone Arch is a great craft beer spot between Terminals
G and F at MSP. So if you're ever flying
through and have a layover, Sean Gray is one that
I know really talks about that place. It's so bad,
Kyle that when I go through there, if our tender
looks at me, goes wrestling guy whorry off to this

(08:03):
time does know the name, but knows I'm the wrestling
guy that flies overseas ins to some rambled places. So
again digging into this stuff on today, and again I
thought this was such a geek out thing that we
could sit there and talk about it, going into it.
But again that historical part of it. You know, we
almost now take the Internet for granted. As we're coming up,
I believe that, you know, speaking of anniversaries, this might

(08:24):
be the thirtieth year anniversary of Intermatt and the Maatt
dot com. The I don't even know if there were
one point zero versions of them, Joe LaRue with the Matt,
tom Owens with Intermatt. So just speaking from a research perspective,
Archive dot org, newspapers dot com, those things are just
gold for people like us.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
It's gold. And then just digging into the backstories. So
the whole Dan Knight situation where he was the representative
and you look at the results. He got second at
the Big Eates, but he doesn't wrestle the NCAA Championships,
So your mind goes what happened there? And then so
I have that ability to text him and he gets
back and then he tells this whole story about how

(09:02):
he tried to make weight it didn't work out. That
was the last time he ever tried to wrestle. Now
he's had this successful coaching career in the state of Iowa,
but you don't know that backstory. And so he's in
Iowa City nineteen ninety one in a hospital listening to
the finals while he was thinking he was going to
be wrestling, and that was the last time he ever
tried to compete. So those backstories about how things happen.

(09:24):
And even with I think nineteen eighty six, that year
where Iowa set the all time record and had six finalists,
five champs, they had a returning national finalist who just
didn't show up to the Big tens. And you know
he's not he's listed as the postseason roster or no participant.

(09:45):
He's not even on the postseason roster. So you have
to put on that line for one eighteen no postseason representative.
So it's fun when you look into that and why
things happen the way they do.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, so I did bring up the Iowa state list
again just for just because we're talking about it, we
might as well bring it up. So another one that
was interesting, as you said you were intrigued, why what
happened in nineteen eighty four at one eighteen, Bill Kelly
was the runner up at the Big Eights, did not
make way to the NCAAs, but you know, defaulted the
Big Eights of the shoulder injury. Which interesting is the

(10:16):
quotes in the newspaper back then, because the late Harold
Nichols even pointed out They're like, no, he could have
made weight his shoulder wasn't that or something like that.
The coaches are just throwing their guys under the bus,
and in some cases years earlier, Harry Nils like, oh,
he really tried. It came down to the last moment.
So you could almost kind of see the contextual relationship
between wrestler and coach based on their quotes that are

(10:38):
published in print. And you can't go back on the end,
you know, back then, you can't just like, okay, let's
edit that tweak. Let's take that out. That's there is
that is that is stamped in the history, but that
is in record. So it's just the Bill Kelly story
also found pretty interesting. You know the way Nixt like, no,
he could have made weight. We're like, well, that's I'm
pretty sure mister Kelly is a different perspective on that

(10:59):
story too.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
We're on the one with Matt Eggland where he didn't
show up and didn't want to make weight at one eighteen,
he's a returning national finalist. Gable tells a great story
where Eggland was at the Big Tens the next year
after he had graduated. He saw him up to the
stand and looked at him. He looked at his watch,
like you're a year late, because there was actually one
here to the day. So just one of those things
where it's just crazy stuff happens, especially in a sport

(11:23):
where you have to make weight and there's just a
lot of things that go into it to get to
that finish line. So some of these just get in
the nationals is a tough thing to do.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, and wrestling such is so unforgiving. I always say
it's a cruel, hearted B word. I'm not saying that
in publicly or you know, I might say that, hey conversation,
but yeah, it's this is a heartless sport. And to
add that to it. And then okay, so back to
what we were talking about with nineteen seventy five is
the one where Bob Holland, who was the Big Eight champ,
and Dan Peterson, who was third in the Big Eight

(11:52):
declared ineligible prior to the tournament. I think what'd you
say was you wrote it in the story on flow
It was a sociology class and something this is the day,
but this is like the Wednesday before the tournament. This
it's obee. It's like crazy that that stuff. Again, save
the Tyler Brennan incident of this past season, things like
that don't happen last minute anymore. Who's running grade checks

(12:16):
the day before tournament? Why would i Aways State run
a grade check the day before the tournament?

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Come on, it's crazy, Yeah, just crazy to think about
why that would happen and how that would happen, and
who would be the compliance person to make that happen.
So especially for a program like Iowa State. And it
would be interesting to know what the fallout was. Did
that cause buzz in Iowa State? Of course, I'm sure
it hit the newspapers. I think you had a short
little paragraph on it, but I don't know if that

(12:41):
made a headline in the newspaper or the local tribune.
But I'm assuming around campus that was a big deal.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, let me pull up the text we had, because
again this is what we call We called it bad radio.
But with the things, what we've got where is our
old text message to Kyle, which again there's the boat
Jackson clip. There's there is Okay, I'll read this as
the clip and this is from the reported from Ames.
This ran on the AP wire. Holland Peterson ineligible. Iowa

(13:11):
States two time Big Eight Wrestling champion Bob Holland in
NC qualifier Dan Peterson were declared scholastically ineligible Wednesday, on
the eve of the National Collegiate Wrestling Championships in Princeton,
New Jersey. Holland, a one hundred and fifty pound standard,
had failed a sociology course, and Peterson, a one to
sixty seven qualifier, had failed a statistics course. During ISU's
winter quarter, coach Harold Nichols said, my response to you,

(13:35):
once I clipped that and said it to you, I
just all caps, Are you kidding me? Stranger than fiction? Man?

Speaker 2 (13:43):
It is. And once you look at that and think
about that, you're missing out on an opportunity. I wonder
what they think of it today, if it's a big deal.
I think one of them was an All American previously,
or maybe a two time All American. But yeah, didn't
end well. Shows you need to go to class.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, you've also done some recent deep dives. The one
you most recently put out was the best Women's college
Dresslers of All Time. And you know, sometimes people can
look at headlines that say of all time. We can
actually say this with some clarity in terms of at
least being an argumentative because we're only going back to
two thousand and four in this case. So it's not
like you can say, oh, of all time, and you're

(14:22):
only looking at back to two thousand and four. When
the NCAA Wrestling tournament started nineteen twenty eight. This is
a legitimate all time in the Internet era. So talk
about that research and what it was like to put
names together and be like, oh wow, so and so
and seeing people that pop up for a school one
year and then pop up at another and that program's gone.

(14:42):
I mean, there's a lot of fun deep dives in
that as well.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
That was an interesting one, especially since one of the
criticisms I saw was that Minnesota Morris should have been included.
But how do you do that if there's not a
postseason tournament Because at that time, even though they were
the original in that there's nothing to compare it to
so you just do the best lineup of Minnesota. Morris
Sarah McMahon was there, among others. So it's impossible to

(15:07):
really know how to rank a program and context to
why they would be great in that moment since they
didn't really really have college competitions. They were just doing
it to get the international competition and have some sort
of a program. It's more like Northern Michigan. So it'd
be like seeing the greatest Greco Roman college dressers of
all time, and it's just going to be Northern Michigan.

(15:30):
I don't know how you do that, but I thought
the fairest way to do that would be to compartmentalize
it with the wcn ERA, the Women's College of Nationals,
which went from two thousand and four to two thousand
and seven, and then the WCWA, which had the biggest
era from twenty eight to twenty twenty, and then the
NCAA era where it wasn't sanctioned yet, and then the

(15:50):
NAI era. So right now the NAI is the only
one going on in its original form. It started in
twenty nineteen as an invitational they missed out because of
COVID and twenty twenty and then it was sanctioned in
twenty twenty three, so it's just fun to be able
to do to contextualize that. Now, another area that you
can criticize is why would a one time champ be

(16:11):
the best in that weight class. So Marlon Dede technically
has better better college credentials than Kenny d Blades. Kennedyd
Blades has one championship or one title, but you have
to say that if you want an Olympic silver medal
and you're in college, you know that that has some
substance to it. So I think you have to count that.
And the other one that maybe got a little criticism

(16:33):
was why so many William Penn and having the Nigerians
who just won last year college college, But they're Olympians
and they dominated, and I just think you have to
look at it objectively that they're the best wrestler at
that weight class. So I think to me it was
pretty clear that they deserve that distinction.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, it's also interesting with the women's wrestling too, because
that's the Olympic style. That's not a difference in folk
style freestyle, that's freestyle to freestyle, So there is an
apples to apples comparison. I remember former Oklahoma City coach
Archie Randall talking about seating meetings back in the day.
He's like, oh, they got so many losses. Well, who
she lose to? She lost to the Russian? Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.

(17:14):
That's like like Emily Webster for example, undefeated, four time
national college champion for OCU. She did lose during the season,
but they were they were like to foreigners, they were
not to college athletes. So it's like who she loves
to the Russian? You know, It's like one of those
types of situations where that is one thing I do
like about the fact that women's wrestling his freestyle is

(17:34):
you know you got those you know, right right before
the season, whether it be the the old you know,
the Farah, the Schultz wherever it may have been, or
even Old Sun Kissed, and you had like some matchups
like this. They were on the women's college seasons. You'd
you'd see them on the schedule like university nationals would
be on like OCU schedule. Back in the day, We're like, yeah, there,
I mean the they you know, what was the wild
West of women's college wrestling, And then some of the

(17:56):
schools that popped up. I mean, let's let's let's still
mt Murray out there first second. Like I'm in Bulgaria
at the U twenties, Randy Miller sitting there talking to her,
and you know, she was college teammates with kat and
Zingano of Bellator and UFC Fame, so its oh yeah,
the times she wrestled at McMurray and stuff. So it's like,
there are you know, there's those trail Blazers. There is

(18:17):
the Minnesota Morris Crew for example. You could probably put
them in like a concentrated Excellence tier, which again that
was the only game in town when it started back
in the in the mid to mid to early nineties.
And so it's just just so many different ways you
can see, and I geek out about the directions we
can go with it. Because now you've also got the
Simon Frasier situation because they they were up in Canada

(18:41):
and with what is currently Usport formerly known as the CIS.
I mean, they've they've got their leagues up there too,
and before they went to a full NCAA Division two program,
so there's I mean, you've got Olympians there, so you know,
Lappage and at all there, the good dinezes. I mean,
you've had all those type of wrestlers. Oh yeah, in
ours too, Helen and VICKI. So it's like a lot

(19:01):
of dynamics too.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Objectively, when you look at that, you can't because it's
such a small body of work. So you go the
NCWWC era that's twenty twenty to twenty twenty five. So
Kylie Welker technically has less titles than Yulaina McCoy ed.
So Elaine is a five time finalists, three time champ,
but Kylie Beater in the national finals, Beater in the
national duels, has two titles. So you have to look

(19:24):
at that objectively and say who's the better wrestler. You
have to say it's Kylie Welker, also having that senior
World medal, also having the U twenty three World gold,
So you're right, it's an apples to apple, So you
have to look at things beyond just the college matt sometimes,
but sometimes when you're four time champ, it plays in
and someone like Mikayla Hutchison, Sarah Hildebrant was behind her

(19:46):
in that ranking. Mikayla beat her in the finals one year.
Sarah Hildebrant went two two one one. Mikaela Hutchison went
I think one one two to one, and her only
loss was in the finals to Helen Marulas. So at
that point she has to leapfrog over here. So I
made the criteria in college only with a caveat that
things outside of college do count, but it has to

(20:07):
be in that window.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, it's again the geekery that involves in this. So
let's let's spin this back a little bit about the
women's wrestling beat and the the you know, years ago,
what did you know about women's college wrestling? And if
you look at look at y'all, let's just take when
when when four one one uh died seventeen years ago,
you go back to the music, did you think, Okay,

(20:29):
you're going to be known. You're known for more than this.
But I'm saying now your your primary coverage area is
women's college wrestling. Did you ever think that that would
be a scenario that would unfold itself for you?

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Not a chance, just because I was one of those
in the early two thousands that thought I needed to
roll my eyes at it because I thought that's what
I was supposed to do, and I couldn't be further
from that. I love it. I love women's wrestling. It's
what wakes me up in the morning, it's what drives me.
It gives me purpose, and and I just love the

(21:01):
lane that this provides because it is so fascinating just
even talking about the Minnesota Morris Peace and I'd love
to dive into that, and I have taken a deep
dive into it. I would like to write something about
that at some point, but it's just so fascinating that
they were out there on this island and they were
living on their own, just in obscurity, trying to make

(21:23):
it in a college wrestling program, and how it evolved
to the first one in two thousand and four where
you have four to six competitors in the bracket, and
now here we are in twenty twenty six. Coming up,
you're going to have an official NCAA sanctioned championship. That
is an amazing history that really happened in a short
amount of time. So I love women's wrestling. I love
what we get to do with it, and there's just

(21:44):
so much that can be covered with it. So I
had no idea would be in this lane, but I'm
proud to be in it now.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, you even co host a show with Scott Beck.
If you're again not paying attention to what's going on
women's wrestling weekly, you're up forty five episodes in. Scott Beck,
who is the father of Michaelea Beck, been a supporter
of mine for a long time and I've been an
early matchalk online patron. Good guy, like his haircut. I've
kind of gone his way with that, you know, you know, knowledgeable,

(22:13):
you know, not just a parent that took more than
a parental role in the sport and really diving into it,
but has been active with Beat the Streets and such,
and you know the idea of starting a show with
Scott and you had on the mat for years with
some great co hosts along the way, Hail Caesar, Doug
Van Gelder being one of them. What's it like to
develop a podcast plan with Scott about women's wrestling?

Speaker 2 (22:37):
It's so fun. And if you remember, the reason I
know Scott is through you. I think he had a
question and then contacted you and said I need to
get in touch with Kyle, and then he got in
touch and you gave him the number. So I owe
him through a funnel through you that I got to
know Scott. But it was just over the course of time.
We probably talk on average two to three times a day.

(22:58):
Sometimes it's upwards of ten if there's a a competition
going on. Sometimes people don't believe that. But at some
point we just said, we're having these conversations all the time.
And he was upset that we dropped the on the
Map podcast, say hey, why didn't you bring it back?
And he's always I say, hey, let's do ours, And
finally he agreed to it, and we just said, this

(23:20):
is just going to be the conversations we're having anyway,
in more of a structured format. So we started forty
five weeks ago. We just had the forty fifth and
we have a plan that we outline, but it's based
on what we do throughout the week or the conversations
we have throughout the week, and it's a blast for
both of us and we want to stay consistent with

(23:41):
it and we love being able to do it and Scott.
Scott's fantastic. He's such a cerebral person for the sport
and just the way his mind works. It's so fun
to hear what he has to say. And I hang
on every word because he has a lot of great insight.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
That Big said, we got the World Championships coming up.
I know that's going to be a topic of this
this wee week's episode, in next week's episode, and probably
the one following it. You know, you've got weeks of content.
So that's one thing from a content standpoint. Here's the prep,
here's what's going on now, and here's the recap, and
then the fallout, so to speak. So in creating like
kind of a coverage calendar, you know, international wrestling never stops,

(24:17):
College wrestling has a defined season. We've got the summer
events and such like. You know, coming off of Fargo
was a big show for you guys. Going into the
world is a big show for you guys. So just
the there is plenty to cover on a weekly basis here.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
And that's what we came up with is we said,
are we going to have gaps? And then we found
that there isn't. And then even times where we thought
there might be and there wasn't necessarily an event, we
go topical and then we're able to dive into more
of current events and what things are happening, what trends,
are happening, whether it's just the regional assignments or rule

(24:52):
twists or pin or just topics that a lot of
people want to know about. And then we sometimes will
get feedback from parents or athletes and then at light
bulb moment and say let's go in that direction. So
it's really just endless on what you can talk about,
and I think that's been the fun part. It is
fun when you can have the event drive what you
talk about, and then you can have the recap of

(25:12):
the event that you get to talk about things. But
I really enjoy the topical situations that we get into
and we're able to really talk about the things that
matter in women's wrestling and why it is what it is.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
What's been the most fulfilling thing about again creating a
women's wrestling beat, creating a podcast on women's wrestling, and
working with Scott and in Flow Sports with all this stuff.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
No doubt, the interview process, just getting to know the
women's wrestlers in this and just because you have this
range of maybe a fourteen year old high schooler all
the way up to a coach, you've seen it all
and just what the gap is and where they're coming
from and their perspective, and sometimes the young girls they're

(25:57):
nervous about doing the interview and then just getting them
through and understanding that this is just a great platform,
and then seeing them go on and do things. I
love that interview process because each person is unique and
how they execute their story and what their story is about.
So no doubt about it. Just getting to know those
athletes and to hear their stories, that's the best part.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Where do you think the value is in having? Now? Granted,
Flow has a lot of contracts with these organizations to
stream their events, but you know, for all intents and purpose,
you can say you're an independent when it comes to
covering women's wrestling. You're not directly tied to wrest like
a girl, You're not directly tied to USA Wrestling, You're
not directly tied to any particular college. So you're looking
at this from an outside perspective. How valuable is that

(26:40):
to wrestling as a whole, to have, you know, people
paying more attention. Obviously Gabby with Transition Wrestling when she
started that up, you know, Reaper Wrestling, Derek with American
Women's Wrestling. There's been It's not just one outlet. There
have been ebbs and flows of coverage, but you know,
there's there's a demand there and we've seen it pop up.
We've seen version two point ohs, version three point ohs

(27:02):
of various women's types of coverage, and we are you know,
we're only twenty years really into women's college wrestling. If
we look twenty years back and we're looking back in time,
twenty years away from the first NCAA tournament, we're just
getting out of World War Two, so it's still it's
it's decades in, but it's still brand new in a
lot of ways in terms of coverage. So there's so
many different ways. Again, a lot of coverage here to

(27:24):
be had for women's college wrestling.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
There is, and that's the fun part is that there's
just so many angles that you can take this because
the history is just so fascinating that you talk to
some of the people that started in two thousand and
fourth the Women's College Nationals, they didn't even know it
was a women's college Nationals. They just showed up because
they said, here's a tournament end of the year, four

(27:46):
to six women brackets, and now we're splitting off into
different entaititiy of the NAI. You have the NCAA now
and you're going from thirty two brackets, and I think
we've talked about that it really wasn't going from thirty
two to eighteen, which will be for this upcoming season
because the NCWWC built it up to thirty two and
now the NCAA takes over and now we're quote down

(28:09):
to eighteen per bracket. But just to see how that's
gonna split off and to live that, to know that
at some point Division three will split off. Right now,
we're in that era where you have Division three, Division two,
Division one all in one. And to think that there
was an era where it was WCWA, where every single
college that had a participant wrestled in the Women's College

(28:32):
Nationals and to look back at that, that's a pretty
special thing to have to say we had a time
where everyone competed together. And then you go through all
the splits you have NAI, you're gonna have Division one
and Division two presumably then you have Division three, so
you're seeing all these splits and how that happened. I
think that's just fascinating history that women's college fans need

(28:53):
to know about.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, I'm going through. I'm looking at the two thousand
and four women's college nationals. Some of the names, again,
these are names that were on the ladder for quite
a while after this. So Sarah ful Ballen at Menlo
was the name people would recognize. Brook Bogren, you know,
that's the name some people might recognize from the the
mid two thousands. Molly Keith, longtime coach, you know, through
through Moval, Elena Berbie, she's been around, she was a

(29:18):
women's college coach for a while, then to Carl Montgomery.
One of our our you know, our first Olympians was
in the college world. And you know Sarah FULK Ballen
now Sarah Hoorra is one at one I think what
was it three titles if I remember off the top
of my head. But we're also looking at some of
the schools Pacific Menlo, University of the Cumberlands, Minnesota. Morris
still was active at the time. But Audrey Pang Princeton,

(29:40):
she wrestled the ai W as for Princeton. You know,
you had some cases where you had like Academy of
Art or something like that. You had if they had
some type of loose formation of a club like Okay, yeah,
or I think as Cabrini College maybe I think it
was one of them, or one of the California Juco's
had had a girl that want of go out there
and wrestle. It's like, now we have formulated, we have

(30:04):
systems in place, we have structure. It's again, we're no
longer in the wild West of women's wrestling. The growth potent,
the growth is still kind of like crazy to think
about when you're getting thirty and forty more teams per
year and you've got to keep up with coaches and athletes.
But now, Kyle, I think it's the only state that
we don't have with the high school girls state terms
Vermont in some way, whether it be emerging or whether

(30:26):
it be you know, exploratory or sanctioned. So you know,
we went from you know, four to forty nine pretty quickly,
including Mississippi and Arkansas.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
That's crazy to think about because at one point it
just seemed like it was just not daily, of course,
but it felt that way, or it was just another
state's adding, another state's adding, because you had those original six,
whether it was Hawaii, Texas, Washington, California, and then it
just exploded and then it was just like boom boom
boom boom boom boom. And then you just couldn't even
keep up with the state sanctioning, with the colleges adding,

(30:58):
and it just seemed like there was one happening all
the time. D three schools, NAI schools. Of course, we'd
like to have some more Division one there's only six
right now. But to follow the trends and just to
see a lot of these programs adding, it's so fun.
It's just you're on this cutting edge of growth potential
when you're following women's college wrestling, and that's just a blast.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
What do you think the next big moment for women's
wrestling is going to be. We've got the ninety first
NCAA championship added women's wrestling. I don't know if people
notice this year on the men's side, it didn't say
nca Division One Wrestling Championships. It said nca Division one
Men's Wrestling Championships. It said men's wrestling on the logo
this year. That was a very subtle change that I
think slipped by some people. It was on the lapel

(31:42):
pins that I had noticed. I'm like, hey, that says
men's They have the women's logo ready to go. So
we've got that is the benchmark for the NCAAA. We've
had the NAI of course those programs with the first
championship officially from a governing body outside you know of
one of the big ones obviously the varsity divisions. Guess
I don't want to throw shade at the NCWA because

(32:02):
they've done a national championship for women quite a while.
Granted there's folk style. They do have a freestyle element
also in the tournament now, But what's the next big
thing you think for not just women's college dressing, but
you think women's wrestling as a whole.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
I think Oklahoma State adding I think that would just
that's going to explode things because Iowa is on its
own island. When you're the only power for a school
and that's what everyone recognizes, they are living in a
different planet because everyone recognizes what the University of Iowa
brand is. Everyone knows who they are. Everyone wants to
be a Hawkey Lehigh helps a ton because that's a

(32:39):
wrestling school and people recognize it for its wrestling program.
But if you can have Iowa and then you can
add Oklahoma State, that changes the game. Completely, because everyone
knows the built in Iowa versus Oklahoma State. If you're
able to cross that threshold and now you have those
two programs, that's going to change women's college dress and
that's going to change women's wrestling and the way we

(33:00):
perceive it for the foreseeable future. So that drops. If
we get that news at Oklahoma State adds a sanctioned
Division one program, that's going to be the game changer.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
You recently wrote that Brown and with their big donation
that they got was kind of a new standard for
women's wrestling, and I'm reading it, I'm like, not varsity yet,
So I guess that's kind of my question. How can
we be setting a standard if a school's not varsity yet?
Where where's your Where did your brain go with that
line of thought?

Speaker 2 (33:30):
The line of thought with that was when you're able
to have a club program and you get a million
dollar gift, that does set a standard and a precedent
that says there's value in women's athletics. And learning from
coach Nick about how they were able to get that
donation and what Brown has done to elevate women's athletics.
If you're able to say this is what we're going

(33:51):
to do. We're going to invest a million dollars and
then they're able to get that completely endowed. That really
does set I think the headline was gold standard. You're
able to get the funding behind it, and you're able
to get a club and they're working toward getting that
Division one status in the next two to three years.
That will be a game changer too, because a lot
of these high school girls, they've said, I value education,

(34:14):
I want to go to an Ivy League school. I
want that top level education. Brown is that Ivy League school.
So if they're able to get that Division one program
at Brown University, that will also be a game changer.
Maybe not on the level of Oklahoma State, but you
have laid down the groundwork, you have that blueprint that
we have this endowed, we have the funding, and we
can go and kick some butt.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Obviously, the one that's also kind of looming there is Columbia.
You know, given that the fact that they have a
gold certified coach with them Randall they've had, They've got
the nyc RTC right there in their backyard. They've they've
got a you know, Atricia Saunders winner for example, most
recently care of Pipkins went went there, So you've got
you're starting to check the boxes with those academically bait.

(34:57):
You know, you're if we get Brown, you get Columbia
Lee High academics are also through the roof too, So
you've got that eastern area and no longer will the
women just have to choose between Okay, I want to
go to this this solid academic you know, high level,
I guess the Ivy Patriot type of school. Or am
I in a one stop light town somewhere in a

(35:18):
flyover state? So saying that that I live in a
fly over state, by the way, So you know, those
those options now, you know you're you're starting to get
those options. And you know, House, how long do you
think we are? You think another ten years we're going
to have You know that that's going to be a
thing of the past.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
I hope so. And I don't want to forget Tarleton
State down in Texas. It sounds like they're going to
add a D one program next year. So you have
one of the all time great coaches and Jason Mormon
who led King to four w c W championships. Think
of the names he's had through their Forest Mullin, Aarrey,
Sarah Hill, de Brandt, Halia Gello, Julius Alada on down
the line. So to have him there, I think they

(35:55):
can win championships there. I really do. I think they
can compete with the best of the best, especially if
D three splits and then you have Lehigh, Iowa, hopefully
Oklahoma State. You have some of those programs doing that.
But if you're asking where are we going to be
in ten years, I think the momentum is there. I
think Northwestern has shown some interest, Stanford has Columbia Brown,

(36:17):
Tarleton State. So if you get these programs adding and
you can get up there with twenty to twenty five
in the next ten years, I think you're looking at
a good brand of wrestling, especially if you still keep
the D two D one components together. D three will
split off here in the next two to three years.
That's going to leave North Central's Joe Norton with a

(36:37):
decision on what he has to do because he wants
to go against the best of the best. To have
a D three program competing with the best, that is
remarkable what he's been able to do at a non
athletic scholarship school. I don't think he gets enough credit
for what he's been able to do to get first
and then second the last two years behind Iowa. But
I think it's trending in the right direction right now,

(36:58):
just it's slow in the slow cooker approach, but I
think it's going to get there in the next ten years.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah, speaking of North Central, that duel not this past year,
but two years ago at the Unidome, the twenty one
to twenty knockdown dragout Iowa North Central duel for the
women's title the National Duels was probably the best duel meet,
if not the a top two to three due meet
I saw that entire season, and probably one of the
tops in recent membery because again, freestyle scoring. Every point scores.

(37:27):
You can go back to almost every match and there's
a situation where you know, a step out here is
the passivity going the other way. For I mean, we
can go back down to that heavyweight match. If the
pascifity goes the other way in the first period that match,
that outcome is different, you know, because there's a point
the other way. You know, it's there's so many different
little nuances where every point matters. So switching gears a bit.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
And by the way, the official literally determined the outcome
of that duel with that activity clock Literally that point
determined the winner because it would have been twenty to
twenty and North Central would have had criteria. That was
there's a shot of Gary mab As soon as they
gave the shot clock point, he was like yeah, because
he knew what was on the line, and boy, that

(38:14):
was that was unbelievable man.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
One of the and it's a callback to those days
now that we you know, at the at the multidivisional
national duels, which were back in the Unidome, which is
you know, one of those things where you fell in
love with a lot of the small college wrestling is
you know, even going back to that four one one
year where you're like there's Southern Oregon and Lindenwood to
war over here next to Iowa. I always staying next
to next to you know, Omaha and Carney and those

(38:37):
type of schools, and it's just like and the women
were a part of that, and it was that place
was loud, and I just remember that also being one
of those kind of like I felt like that was
kind of one of those this is a this is
one of those check the box moments in women's college
wrestling and wrestling as a whole, that like, I mean,
it arrived, but it was like, yeah, it's it's really arrived,
because that was that was a knockdown, drag out. You

(38:59):
had world metallists, you know, battling each other, you know,
to decide the duel. There at the very end, you know,
you had welcome mccoyet right there, like that's that's World
Team Trials Final X type of match right there.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
That was so fun that and it was cool because
the exact spot was where the women were pushed to
the back in the National Duels days, where they were
just an afterthought. And to think that fifteen years later
they were the show. They were the showcase, and that's
where everyone was gathered. That's what everyone wanted to see.
That was a special moment for women's wrestling that I'm

(39:33):
glad I was there to be Matt site for. That
was special.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah. I think girls almost went through my table once
at one point. Now shifting back again, as we you know,
working on packing here, as I'm looking around in the
speakeasy here, I still got a closer packed. I'm just
worried about the gear. I got to make sure I
got the laptop's got to make sure I got the
vocal zone, the microphones, all that other stuff. When it
comes to World Championships, what do you and Flow Sports
have in mind for coverage this week? Obviously there's bodies

(39:59):
on the ground doing coverage with the Flow team, but
your staying state side. What's the Kyle Klingman Women's wrestling
coverage is going to be from the World Championships perspective.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Well, it's going to be, of course, getting up in
the middle of the night and watching the coverage and
just following everything in detail. I think it's the most
fascinating time. Every match, every movement matters, so it's so
fun from round one until the finals to see what
happens and then follow if this person loses, did they
get pulled back in and how the team implications are.

(40:30):
I think with Japan, I don't want to say reloading,
but having a hybrid team of some of their best
stars and then missing a Yuisuzaki and some of their
best ones. Kari Fujinami's not wrestling, so two of their
best of all time are not competing this time around.
To see how the US team matches up with a
hybrid Japan team. I think that's fascinating. But just the

(40:51):
year after the Olympic Games is always different. I think
that's what is going to be the most interesting storyline
on who pulls through and who's going to be there
to come through in the clutch and make those those
moments happen. And then the number one US storyline is
Helen Rulis is going to be thirty four on September nineteenth,
and I think she's wrestling the best she has since

(41:12):
twenty seventeen to see what she can do, to see
if she can get her fifth World and Olympic championship.
After winning a gold medal at the Olympics in twenty
sixteen and the two Olympic bronze, she just keeps getting better.
I never thought i'd say that, and I thought she
should have retired. I just thought, you've done everything you can,
You've had the concussions. I'm glad she hasn't. She's going

(41:33):
on and she's proven that she's as good as she's
ever been. I think that's something that everyone needs to
lock into.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
One thing I hadn't considered until just now is you know,
we got the benefit of seeing Jordan Burrows for such
a long time compete at his peak, and in an
era where access to our stars has never been higher,
whether it be from all the video and social media
aspects and things that flow or in USA Wrestling are doing,

(41:58):
and the independent content out there, but again having wall
to wall coverage, having the access to these athletes, and
then you know, I remember in Rio, I always say
that Helen winning Gold was by far the number one
moment in my broadcast. Occur to me, it's the most
memorable or announcing career is you know what The people
ask me, what's your favorite call of all time? And no,

(42:19):
with not even a hesitation, it's Helen in Rio, And
I think back to that. Okay, my daughter, my youngest daughter,
was days old, like literally days, well maybe a month
old at that point, and you know the fact that
now that happened in her lifetime and now she's nine
years old and she still gets to I'll sit there

(42:39):
and be like, hey, hey, Ruby, this this is Helen.
She want to title end. Lucy remembers my oldest is
now thirteen. She remembers Helen winning gold. She had a
Helen Marula's shirt on the days she wanted. So my
teenage daughter, well, they're not wrestlers, they're not going to
be wrestlers. But the girls that are wrestlers, the kids
that are coming up, they have an ability to know, oh,
we have an Olympic gold medal and women's wrestling and

(43:01):
I can still watch her compete. That is worth so
much for that demographic of kids coming up that you
know Helen didn't have. Helen didn't have that. Well, now
her still competing. Adeline's got so many world titles and
has the Olympic silver in you know, Tamara is now
in the world of the WWE. But the fact that
Helen's still out there competing and giving those girls that

(43:25):
again they can. This is the first one to ever
do it, and she's still out there and they're not
just having to go through the YouTube rabbit hole or
you know, like like you know, you know, Jordan Brough's
trying to find Kenny Monday videos when he was growing up,
like those type of things. That's right there front and
center for them. And that's the cool thing about Helen's
still competing. It to me, at least, it's cool.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
And when you said all that, it's crazy to think
that when Burrows won his first World championship in twenty eleven,
there wasn't coverage. I think it was someone maybe Gary
Abbott filming it on the side or maybe Mark.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
He was filming it and I was doing the audio.
I was doing an audio stream, uh, with a like
a USB headset. We had actually brought out actually Adam
Fenn who helped build the Flow sports streaming system, he
had given us a router and we took it with us,
so we had our own private network on the Wi
Fi there I had. I had the headset on because
I started doing audio commentary in nine nine, ten eleven.

(44:21):
We did the audio and so Gary's doing the video.
Baters over there were in a singlet doing the video
for Flow. So it was all It was all handicamps
and there was no streaming. Uh. If you were lucky
you could have gotten a finals somewhere. But yeah, I
did the audio call for USA Wrestling. At that point
we had the chat room going. I remember, you know,
Chail Sun was in the chat and this is what

(44:43):
before it was really a Twitter sport uh formerly no
ex formally known as Twitter. Uh. So yeah, it was
it was audio. I think i've got my audio call
on a on a hard drive somewhere back in eleven.
I remember Burrows's ear basically exploded. Was worried about you know,
Sargose ripped his singlet the you know, Gary took a
header off the stage during I think the Ritz split

(45:04):
his pants from from from ankle to ankle to asshole.
It's just like you know, all those things in Istanbul
that year that nobody was actually it's a tree falls
in the woods. The only people there to see it
kind of were there to see it, and then we
had a handicam footage of it, so yeah, crazy, and
all the hell and stuff was stream live.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
Yeah, think about that though, when you're talking that. And
now we have Tyler Meisinger, we have Connor Petros with
these HD cameras just to get footage so that we
can post on social media in HD. And then you
have all the beautiful streaming and now you're upset if
there's a maybe a glitch in your stream for thirty seconds.
It's just changed so much that it's just mind blowing

(45:46):
to think that in twenty eleven you're on a handicam
and here in twenty twenty five it's HD quality with
commentators and it's the way it should be. But what
we have come a long way and it's fun to
be a part of that too.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
Kyle, what's the next thing you've got in mind for
us to wax poetic over text and then potentially do
a show about.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Here's the next geeky thing. I've wanted to do this
for five six years. There is a match from the
nineteen ninety five NCAA Championships, not a match Steve behar
against Tim Harris. They wrestled three times, and how is
that possible? They I think they had a controversial match
in the quarterfinals and then they had to re wrestle

(46:27):
behind closed doors because they had some sort of a
protest about the match. He got re wrestled, and then
they wrestled for fifth and sixth. I called Marty Morgan
about that, and then when I learned more about it,
I guess there were former teammates at the University of Minnesota,
and then I think Steve Baher transferred to Nebraska. So
I would love to learn more about that, what happened,

(46:50):
why they wrestled three times, and what happened in that
re wrestled match that no one was around at the
nineteen ninety five NCAA Championship. So that's the next thing
I'm geeking out about. I'd love to get in touch
with those two. I'd love to learn why Steve Bear
transferred to Nebraska from Minnesota. So that's my next little
deep dive into history that I will geek out about.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
I'm gonna geek out with you because I did not
know anything about that story. I think Marty lives about
two miles for me, so maybe I'll have to pick
his year next time my pass him. I see his
realty signs all over the neighborhood. You know, he seems
pretty prolific here in the Mount Zue School district. But yeah,
that's a new one for me. I hadn't heard that one.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Yeah, I don't learn more about why that happened. And
I looked up the scores before the show just because
we were talking about things that might be interesting. And
that's one because I don't know what happened there. I
just remember being there because that was my first an
state championship, and I remember there was a protest, and
my recollection is they did re wrestle, and I'd like
to know where they re wrestled. I don't know if

(47:50):
it was on the mat with no one around. I'm
assuming that Tim Harris won that or Steve bar won
that since he ended up getting fifth and moving on.
So I would just love to dive into that one
a little deeper.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, I think the only thing I remember protest it
might have been what was it was it Gabe Dretch
and Blake mour was that it was? There was a
seventy four pound match with Ohio State and Minnesota one year.
I want to say it was Kansas City where j
Rob and Helexen basically just started john at each other.
I think that match got finished after the session was into.

(48:25):
That's the only other thing that comes to mind for
me at a story like that now. I mean, internationally
we know about ree wrestles, but yeah, that's a new
one for me. And then from a from a stats dive,
you said you got Minnesota. Who else is on the
all time lineups list? For you?

Speaker 2 (48:39):
I think Minnesota deserves it. I think Ohio State at
some level should probably have a dive. I think especially
in Nebraska with Jordan Burrows being there and just thinking
about some of the lineage there. Of course, Northern Iowa
I think would be fun to look into. So it's
just fun to pick away at it and just to
look at some of those lineups and see what you
can come up with. And I think some of those

(49:00):
marquee programs, probably Oklahoma would be a good one too.
And you look back to Dave Schultz being there, Mark
Schultz and some of the icons, Dan Hodge being at
the University of Oklahoma. I think that would be a
good one too. So any of those championship programs I
think deserve it.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Okay, last thing of the goofiness that the rabbit holes
that this does. I actually highlighted this in my email
to you. So let's go back to nineteen ninety one
hundred and forty two pounds Big Eights were at Nebraska.
The name we were looking for for Iowa State was
Rob Watt, who did not qualify. He did not qualify,

(49:36):
but what what makes Rob Watt relevant to this generation?
So he lost in the first round to Chip Bunner
of Missouri. That is the same Chip Bunner that Greg
Warren's character Wesley west West. The references in the Afton
quadrangulars of note that year at the Big Eights at

(49:59):
one fifth, Greg Warren beat Chance Leonard of Oklahoma who
did that Perry Oklahoma Price of Legacy documentary series. So
we've got current event types, guys like Greg Warren and
Chance Leonard meeting, and then we tie in Chip Bunner,
the real Chip Bunner, not Afton Quadrangular, Chip Bunner, who

(50:20):
is still obviously based on the same thing with Greg
Warren's comedy. So that was one of those things. It's
like it does it have a role anywhere in the
historical archives of wrestling. Probably not, but I think that's
a pretty cool little tie in the things that we
do with with pop culture and current events within the sport. So,
Chip Bunner, your name's you know, you're not just a

(50:42):
bit in an Afton quadrangular. You've got you actually worked
into one of Kyle's stories tangentially based on a guy
f Myowa State who did not qualify.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Hey, he's got street cred.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
Now he's got street cred. Kyle Klingman always has street
street cred. Again at Kyle l One on the X
at Flow Wrestling dot Org. Check out Women's Wrestling Weekly.
They are forty five episodes in You're Gonna check out
his coverage from the World Championships all week. They've got
a lot of the Flow. Team's gonna be over in Croatia,
Kyle's gonna be manned down the fort there in the

(51:15):
Cedar Valley. And just one thing on we all as
we as we leave this episode of Short Time, we're
just gonna go Hail Caesar one more time, Kyle for
for Doug.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
Hail Caesar, Hail Caesar. Heck yea Doug Van Gelder. He
was doing the show with us for a long time
at on the Mat and love the guy. He's awesome.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
And lastly, stop this is a stop stream reminder. This
is what we're doing. Stop stream reminder. We're just gonna
we're gonna end on that. We don't need to explain
that one, Kyle, stop stream reminder, got it. The Short
Time Wrestling podcast has been outfitted by Compound Sports where
since ever since you need something, shirts, hats, gear, team,

(51:56):
where you need it, they've got it. Call up clipping
the crew at CMPs Sportswear dot com.
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