In This Hour:
-- The correct response to an active shooter is immediate, violent action by those on the scene. Ed Monk explains his research and teachings on school and church shootings as detailed in his new book, "First 30 Seconds."
-- Sayiing goodbye to a veteran of the gun industry and Second Amendment activist. Tom travels to Nebraska to remember Ray Oeltjen, and runs into an icon of gun making.
-- An unplanned visit with famous pistolsmith Bill Laughridge of Cylinder & Slide.
Gun Talk 08.17.25 Hour 1
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- The correct response to an active shooter is immediate, violent action by those on the scene. Ed Monk explains his research and teachings on school and church shootings as detailed in his new book, "First 30 Seconds."
-- Sayiing goodbye to a veteran of the gun industry and Second Amendment activist. Tom travels to Nebraska to remember Ray Oeltjen, and runs into an icon of gun making.
-- An unplanned visit with famous pistolsmith Bill Laughridge of Cylinder & Slide.
Gun Talk 08.17.25 Hour 1
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Ruger LC carbine is the ultimate range companion, chambered
in five seven by twenty eight, is fun to shoot
and low recoiling, a folding stock and collapsible sites to
make a compact. Learn more at Ruger dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
He was the first and he's still the best. For
thirty years, Tom Gresham has been your trusted source on
all things ballistic, new guns, Second Amendment, personal protection, be
part of it, Paul, Tom Talk Gun Now, here's Tom.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
All right, let's do this thing. Hey, I'm Tom Gresham
and you have arrived at gun Talk. Welcome again. We're
going to be having some fun today. We've got some
politics to talk about, but we'll talk about cool new guns.
And of course we always want to talk about self
defense because traditionally throughout well as as long as I
have been checking on this, that's the number one reason
that people give is why they own guns is self
(00:52):
protection or self defense. And so along with that, of course,
now we're talking about the whole idea of mass shooters
or however you want to categorize. At these day, school shootings,
public shootings, it's a phenomenon and I'm afraid that a
lot of people still are not addressing it straightforward. Well,
(01:13):
one guy who is is retired to Lieutenant Colonel Ed Muck,
he joined just right now, had you got this brand
new book out first thirty seconds, I start off with that,
what's that mean?
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Well, it's all about time, Tom, thanks for having me
on your radio show.
Speaker 5 (01:30):
When you look at the active shooter.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
If we want to reduce and minimize the number of victims,
and I've never met anybody that doesn't want say they
want to minimize the victims, it's all about time. He is.
The active shooter is going to shoot a new person
every few seconds. And if you look at past active
shooters and you can see what the average rate is
of which they shoot new people. If we want to
have a low victim count, which I kind of talk
(01:53):
about as a single digit victim count zero to nine,
then given the average active shooter shoot rate, we've got
to stop within the first thirty seconds to have that
mathematical chance of mathematical expectation. And there is no way
to communicate with someone who's not at the attack site
when it starts and get them there within thirty seconds,
So that leaves us, by default with the only way
(02:14):
to do this is the victims.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
He came to shoot have to stop him. It's all
about time and math.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Time and Matt Well, the other way i've heard it
express this is called the stop watch of death. The
longer it goes, more people die.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yeah, the great run borsch absolutely, and this is so obvious,
we're still not using it.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
We know it for fire.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
We know if your kitchen catches fire, if you put
it out in fifteen seconds with a fire exting is
sure there'll be far less damage and if you wait
for the fire department. But we're still not seeing that
with the active shooter, even though it's so obvious. We
focus on how can we get the cops there five, ten,
fifteen seconds quicker, which, okay, if you get the cops
to the active shooter seeing fifteen seconds quicker than maybe
(02:55):
the victim count'll be twenty eight instead of thirty.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
But that's not the end of the spectrum. Think we
should be focusing on.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
We should have it stopped before the cops ever get
to the attack site if we want a low victim count,
that's really the only way to expect it.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And we have very clear examples of both sides of this,
of waiting, dialing nine to one one and asking and
praying for somebody to please drive across town and bring
a gun, versus having somebody on scene and stopping it
because and you pointed out, look, the deal is, the
people who are doing mass shootings they know they're either
going to get killed or they're going to get caught.
(03:29):
They're not worried about getting away, and so they are
there to run up the highest body count they can.
And when you have somebody on scene who's and they
basically stop, right ed. They stopped the moment somebody with
a gun shows.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Up, Well, they stop as soon as they're confronted with
deadly violence. Okay, So we absolutely know what works one
hundred percent of the time, and that's confronting them with
deadly violence, and they won't return to shooting their victims
unless who ever confronted them with deadly violence breaks contact,
which has happened in Uvalde and on Mine and Sania,
Sidrow and Boulder.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
So we know what works.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Get to him as soon as humanly possible, somebody get
to him and get close enough to threaten him with violence,
and don't let up, don't break contact until it's over.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
We just have to do that.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
In the first thirty seconds, not when the cops arrive
for six, eight, twelve minutes down the road.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
Well, either way, it stops. The problem is how many
victims will have.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
And you point out I look, people say, well I
want zero. Well zero's not available. Is a number because
the incident starts when the bad guy shoots somebody. So
somebody just got shot. That's how you know there's an
incident in the first place, right.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Yeah, hope, hope can't be part of the plan.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
I hope I don't get in a car accident, but
I have an airbag in my steering wheel in case
hope fails. So yeah, I don't want to get in
a car accident. I pray and hope I don't, but
the airbag is there in case hope and prayer fails.
It's the same reason we have life vests and boats
and the fire extinguish you're in the car, And it's
the same reason citizens carrying handguns. Well, yeah, I hope
(05:01):
there's never another active shooter attack. But if you're not
planning like there's going to be one tomorrow, you're not
adequately planning.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yeah, I've said before, Look the Pentagon, hope will get
you killed.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
That is not a plan. That's not a way to go.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
You have run into the most interesting responses in talking
to school administrators and teachers, and they have a myriad
of responses of why they don't want somebody there with
a gun. But it tends to for me, we want
to bounce this idea off of you. And I've said
for years the problem is if they admit that there's
(05:36):
a danger, then they have punctured their illusion of being safe,
and they don't want to feel unsafe. Therefore they will
pretend there's really no threat. What do you think.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
It's that they don't have any training, experience, or stomach
for planning for violence. So it's not that they're bad people.
It's not that they're stupid. They just have no experience
or stomach with us. Anything that we're uncomfortable with, that
we don't want to deal with, we outsource it. If
we don't like the sweating and stuff of cutting the grass,
we hire somebody. If we don't like to get messy
(06:11):
changing oil, we go to jipulary. We outsource people to
do that work. And that's fine as long as someone's
not getting shot every few seconds you're waiting on that
other person to do it. We can't outsource the active
shooter to the cops because someone's dying every few seconds,
so that they can't separate every other day from the
attack day. Every other day there's no need to have
(06:32):
a gun, but on the attack day there is. And
they'll admit that because I don't. They'll say I don't
want guns on this school campus. But you say, okay, well,
when the active shooter attacks your campus, god forbid, who
are you going to call for?
Speaker 5 (06:43):
Well, it's the police.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
And are you going to are you going to specify
to the nine one one operator that you don't want
the police to bring their guns to your campus?
Speaker 5 (06:50):
That know absolutely they want guns. So we all know
the solution. The best solution is.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
A good person with a gun getting to the active
shooter to stop him. The only question is time. Is
someone going to do it in the first thirty seconds
or are we going to wait on cops to do
it in six minutes? The solution is deadly violence. The
only variable is when how soon? That's the only variable.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
But look, I'm just going to toss up these soft
balls because you've heard all of this stuff the same
way I have. You know, But if you have a
teacher or a staff member or somebody else has a gun,
they're liable to shoot an innocent student. They're liable to
shoot the wrong person. And I keep thinking, I've not
heard of that happening.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Have you no right now? It could happen tomorrow, But
right now I don't know of an instance. We're an
act where a armed citizen shot the wrong person while
shooting an active shooter, and they've done that a number
of times, meaning they've successfully shot active shooters without shooting
any innocent people.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
Now, cops have shot innocent people multiple times.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Cops had shot each other by mistake three different times
that I know of while responding an active shooter. So
armed citizens have a better accuracy rate and a better
safety record in shooting active shooters than do cops. Plus
they have a better record of ending the attack with
a lower victim count because they're there and end it
very quickly, Whereas the cops, even if they're brave and
(08:08):
well equipped and do God's work.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Once they show up, it's just too late.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
So the boogeyman arguments that I talk about in the
book is I think what you're talking about, and it's
that there is no perfect solution. You know, people having
guns is a risk, it's just a less of a
risk than letting him shoot twenty or thirty of us
waiting on the cops. So they'll focus on the negativity
of the best solution, that they don't want the best
(08:33):
solution because it makes them uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
It's almost like you said, Okay, you have a fire
and you have three people here with fire extinguishers, but
you tell no, no, no, no, you need to wait five
to ten minutes before you start using those fire extinguishers
to put out this fire. And people would say, well,
that's crazy, and we'll go yeah, that's kind of my point,
didn't it.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
And if a school's policy was, if if actual fire
breaks out in our school building, our policy as you
stay where you are, you wait and see who gets
to you the quickest, who gets to you first, the
fire or the fireman. I would hope if that was
the policy that parents would enforce come to the school
(09:12):
board meeting and demand a change. That is lunacy, it's dangerous,
but that is our plan for active shooters. And I'm
shocked all the time that parents allow this. The policy
of most schools is for active shooters. Yeah, we'll take
some evasive measures, we'll turn out some lights, we'll lock
some doors, but basically, you can shoot any of us
(09:32):
you can find until the cops get here. And that's
why we keep getting high numbers. Lock down, stay where
you are, lock your doors, and see whether the active
shooter or the cops get to you first. That's most
schools policy, and it's absolutely insane. If we want a
low victim count, come shoot. You can shoot as many
of us as you can find until the cops get here.
(09:53):
Is a deadly horrible plan. But that's the plan of
ninety eight percent of schools in America.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Well, gar response do you get from administration when you
say that's actually your plan is to just let people
die until the cops get here.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
It's very uncomfortable. And now the reaction I get is varied.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Sometimes they will make sometimes they'll make changes, sometimes they won't.
The biggest change, the first change most schools need to make.
If their plan is lockdown, everybody does the same thing,
regardless of where they are in relation to the active shooter.
The first big change I try to get them to
make is okay, everybody doesn't do the same thing. Everybody
makes a decision and chooses to their options. They can run,
(10:33):
if that's possible, they can fight. That's the first big thing.
But the administrators get very uncomfortable because they're locked in.
They want to drill a policy with a drill that's
easy to type. It's easy to drill and it doesn't
make anybody uncomfortable, and the lockdown drill is perfect for that.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
It works beautifully every day the shooter doesn't show up.
It only interrupts the school day about five minutes. But
it gets people killed when they show up.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
But the big problem that I see, Okay, when I
was a company commander in the Army, a tank company commander,
I was the highest ranking guy in my company as
a captain that I had privates on my tank. If
my tank took a direct hit, I paid the same
price as my private If I made a mistake that
put my tank in danger, I paid the same price.
The problem we have with schools is the people making
(11:18):
the real decisions that cause harm or at the state
legislature and the superintendents and the school boards.
Speaker 5 (11:24):
They're not getting shot at.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
They don't pay the price for the horrible policies it's
the principles and below that are paying the price, and
I think that's one of the reasons we're not seeing changes.
You know, my state capitol here in Arkansas, the legislature
in my state capital, they don't have one cop an
SRO to protect the whole capital. They have an entire
capital police department to protect that capital building. And when
(11:46):
they're in session they bring in extra state troopers. They
know what'll protect them. It's a whole bunch of good
people walking around with guns that they won't let schools
do that.
Speaker 6 (11:56):
Wow.
Speaker 7 (11:57):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
The title of the book is First thirty Seconds. Now.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I should point out that you also provide training if
people want to get training, anything up to two three
day live fire training. Also, you do seminars on active
shooter response. All of that, and the book, of course
is available again First thirty Seconds.
Speaker 6 (12:15):
How do people get the book?
Speaker 4 (12:18):
They can go to the book website which is First
three zero dash Seconds dot com and on that website
it'll there's a buy now button that'll take you to Amazon,
or you can just go to Amazon and look for
First thirty Seconds.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Now.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
There's already been two books out there that have copied
it using AI to try to siphon off on book. Yeah,
I was told that happens. If they find a new
fast selling book, they'll use AI and create a new
book title. This one's Ed Monk's First thirty Seconds work book,
and then the other one is titled the First thirty Seconds,
(12:52):
So just make sure it's the black cover First thirty
Seconds by Ed Monk.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Well, they've even copied some of the elements. I'm looking
on it as actually copied some of the elements of
your book and graphics with a stopwatch. So you want
First thirty Seconds by Ed Munk. It is nineteen eighty
nine on Amazon. That's how I got it.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
Here's a paperback and the Kendles three ninety ninety.
Speaker 6 (13:14):
Oh okay, good deal.
Speaker 7 (13:15):
Ed.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
It's a really good book. It's a really good concept.
I am so glad you're doing this out of a
passion for this in wanted to save lives, and I
really appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 6 (13:26):
Tom.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
All right, thank you, sir. All right, don't go far.
Gun talk will be right back.
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Speaker 5 (15:37):
Hey Tom Rob Lath, I'm and congratulations. I can't believe
it's lasted this long. And I also can't believe you're
still shooting low and laft through all these years.
Speaker 10 (15:45):
For God's sake, Son, hold the gun, steady, pull the
trigger without moving.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Well now, welcome back. By the way, I'm Tom gresher Man.
If you want to join us, it's just as easy
as it can be.
Speaker 6 (15:58):
Give me a call.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Eight sixty six Tall Gun or Tom Talk Gun, same number,
just different ways of getting there. Tom Talk Gun, We'll
get you in here. I am down actually broadcasting today
live from Columbus, Nebraska, in the middle of cornfields and
cows and having a good time over here. Made the
trip out here to do a celebration of life yesterday
(16:20):
for our buddy Ray Elgen. He's been a guest on
the show a number of times. Ray, of course, was
a veteran of the firem's industry. He was with Federal
Cartridge for many, many years and then a head of
sales at Loophole Loophole Scopes and for a number of
years unbelievably good wingshot. I ran into somebody who said,
(16:40):
you know, a hundred doves was rayed several times. He says,
I never saw him miss, and I thought, hm, I
heard it with Ray a lot. Actually I've never seen
him miss, Actually never. He was that good. So I
got a few more stories about Ray as we go along,
and some of the people I ran into as we
were coming out here interesting stuff. Let's first go to
(17:02):
the phones though, Line three. You've got Bruce out of Minnesota. Bruce,
you're on gun Talk. Talk to me.
Speaker 11 (17:09):
Good afternoon, beautiful day in the neighborhood, isn't it.
Speaker 6 (17:13):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 11 (17:16):
A few months ago I called and asked you about
the Browning ex Bolt two speed. I was himm and
an on about purchasing it because it's more customizable than
most guys. Well, I went out and purchased it, and
I've been to the range with it. Oh that's just
Oh that is a sweet firearm. The vortext that I
(17:40):
put on it, it's I got to lean too far up,
but I'm almost off the comb. So I was going
to go to a U. I went to Shields. That's
a big hardware.
Speaker 6 (17:52):
Store up here, right, shield.
Speaker 11 (17:58):
Yes, And I was talking with one of the sales
right there, and I was going to put a candle
lever on it to bring the scope back a little
bit more about three quarters of an inch to an inch.
And he said, don't those candle levers only for like
the AR platforms. I don't really know about that, so
(18:20):
I didn't. I didn't purchase anything. I'm calling the expert
in the field.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Okay, well let's go yeah, let's go back. Let's look
at the actual problem. Problem is the scope is not
too far forward, and you have to really claw and
climb your way up on the stock or on the
comb and put your head forward to see through it.
Speaker 6 (18:40):
Am I am? I correct? So far? Am I right? Correct?
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Okay, So why don't you just loosen the rings and
slide the scope back.
Speaker 11 (18:50):
I have done that, and I have switched the rings
so that it's it's moved farther back, it's still about
an inch. I gotta pull up an inch doesn't have
I don't have a really good sight picture or a relief.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Okay, I mean is the scope as far back as
it can go?
Speaker 11 (19:10):
Yes, sir?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
So you're running into the adjustable the turrets and it
won't slide back.
Speaker 6 (19:16):
Is that it? Now?
Speaker 11 (19:18):
The scope on the rifle? Is that as far back?
Speaker 12 (19:23):
Because I can.
Speaker 11 (19:23):
Get it, but I still have to go up and
I'm almost off the calm.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Okay, Well, that's what I'm asking is why why is
it as far back? I mean, why can't you move
it back any farther? What's going on?
Speaker 11 (19:36):
The rings are on the the scope as far as
it can and it doesn't have a the it's just mounted.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
To the rifle.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Okay, So here's I think you may want to take
it back to the store and say, hey, what have
you got? You may have to get a different scope.
You may have a scope that has it's like very
short scope and the turrets are in such a position
that you can't slide it further back. What's the magnification
(20:09):
of that scope?
Speaker 11 (20:09):
By the way, it's a vortex three point five ten
by fifty.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Okay, well, and so yeah, that's you should be able
to get that slid back to where it's in the
right position. I'm just wondering, seriously, I would take it
back to the store and the Yeah, the cantilever, I'm
not crazy about that idea. If you can avoid it
using the cant leaver mounts, go back and say, look,
what if you guys recommend what else you got? Is
(20:39):
there another scope? Is there a different scope mount? Is
there something we can do here, because you should be
able to use some standard scope mounts and be able
to get that scope back where you can get a
full field of view. And it may be and sometimes
this happens, and maybe that you just have to get
a different scope and try that and see if it'll
slide back in the rings without hitting the the turrets.
Speaker 11 (21:02):
Okay, yeah, it's I bought the uh, when I bought
the rifle, I bought the the scope rings, vortex scope
rings I had the house.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
You know, they do have they do have extended rings
where they kind of have a jog to them. It's
almost like cantilever, but it's not one of those big
cantilever setups. For ars, and you might just look at
extended rings and see if you can get something like that,
because you probably only need something like on the order
of three quarters of an inch would be my guess,
half to three quards of an inch. It probably will
(21:35):
take care of you. But yeah, take a look at
that and look at extended rings, you know, look at
the Vortex site. Also look at the site for Warren
W A R N E. Warren Scope rings, and there
are some other brands out there. You certainly don't have
to stick with Vortex, but you're gonna be able to
find it. But it is going to take a little
bit of experimentation and research and you'll get there. I mean,
(21:58):
and don't settle. Make sure you get it right so
that it fits the gun and it fits you well.
I appreciate the call, sir. All right, our number here,
the eight sixty six Talk Gun. We got Bruce lined up,
we got Eric lined up, but we got a room
for you if you want to join us.
Speaker 6 (22:11):
Give you a shout.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
I'm Tom Gresham and this is Gun Talk.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
I drove out here from Omaha, and I guess yesterday, No,
that's yesterday. I'm in Columbus Nebraska, came out here for
the celebration of life Arraled and our buddy and got
together with some of the folks from in the firearms industry.
There are a few of us out here who really
new Ray and had a really good time going to
swapping stories, telling tales and all the things.
Speaker 6 (22:45):
You do.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Get a little inside information on what's going on inside
of some of the gun companies and things that are
going on, and some of that I could share.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
Some you can't.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
You know, some things you're just told, okay, can't talk
about this, but that's okay, and we'll pass along some
of that at some point. I'll get to it just
a minute. I do want to follow up on the
interview with ed mank talking about active shooters and some
of the I guess observations of that are things that
I I'm not sure exactly I learned, but it was
(23:14):
reinforced in terms of what it takes to stop an
active shooter and what we should be doing and drilling
that down to what you individually should be doing.
Speaker 6 (23:28):
I'll have some thoughts on that in just a minute.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
First, I want to go to the phones here a
Ligne five Eric is with us out of New London,
New Hampshire. Eric, you're on gun Talk with range reports.
Help me out here.
Speaker 7 (23:39):
Hi Tom, longtime listener, first time caller. I appreciate you.
I got two range reports. One I haven't been able
to shoot yet. One I have yesterday at the gun store,
I bought a little bond Arms Deringer replica in nine milimeters,
so that one I haven't gotten the shoot, but I'll
be sure to update you when I do.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
Well.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
First of all, before you move up, wait, wait, wait,
before you move on, tell me why you bought a
bond Arnge Derringer in nine milimeters.
Speaker 6 (24:11):
What's the thinking here?
Speaker 7 (24:14):
It was a used gun on the gun under the
gun counter, and uh I was in there just browsing
yesterday and it caught my eye and I said, you
know what, why not?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Well, that's not a bad reason. I'm just trying to
figure out. I mean, as a carry gun, you're thinking, okay,
I want to be limited to two shots? Why I
want to have an exposed hammer?
Speaker 6 (24:36):
Why? What? I mean?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
I'm just trying to understand what's the purpose you're gonna
be doing with this.
Speaker 7 (24:44):
I think it was just going to be, you know,
maybe a gun I would carry in a in a
boot when I'm outside working in the yard or or something.
Put the CCI and some of that rat shot in
it or something just to have as an extra carry.
Speaker 6 (25:03):
Do you have at some point do you have rats
you need to deal with?
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Well, I mean, because a rat shot is not good
for anything other than maybe a snake or a rat.
It certainly isn't good as a self defense ate.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
No, it was.
Speaker 7 (25:14):
It would be more of like doing that would be
being out in the yard in the garden, and like
a snake snake gun. But other than that, it would
be just maybe an extra backup carry gun at some point.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Okay, all right, we'll move on, but please, if you would,
after you get out and shoot it a little bit,
then't give us a call and give us a full
range report.
Speaker 7 (25:34):
Hard. Okay, all right, we'll do.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
Okay, Now, what's the next gun?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
You got a range report on the next one?
Speaker 7 (25:41):
The next one is a CBA Scout. It's a single
shot break break barrel. Huh. It's the most unassuming gun
that I own, but I think it might be the
most fun gun that I own. I bought it in
three hundred blackout, and the thing shoots amazing. I put
(26:02):
a can on it, and it's one of the best shooter,
best shooting guns.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
That I own.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Okay, let me explain for I'm sure people understand. But
just in case you've got a fixed breech gun, it's
not a semiato because when you've got semi ado, you've
got gases gone out when the action's working. So all
the gas in this gun has to go out through
the barrel, which means through the suppressor, which with a
subsonic load and a three in a blackout, that thing
(26:28):
is like spooky quiet.
Speaker 6 (26:30):
Isn't it.
Speaker 7 (26:31):
Oh yeah, it's like shooting a pellet gun, maybe even quieter.
Speaker 6 (26:36):
Amazing. How is it for accuracy?
Speaker 7 (26:39):
The accuracy and it's great. I have it zeroed at
fifty yards and I've been able to shoot it out
to one hundred and you know, the thing will shoot
two inch group easy at one hundred yards. I just
put a little one power red dot on the top
and shooting the thing shoots amazing.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
They're short and they're light, and they're just handy as
they can be. So what is the plan? How do
you plan to implement this thing?
Speaker 7 (27:08):
I'm not sure the price was right and I don't
have anything in three hundred blackout. I think that's a
good reason right there.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
Yeah, I don't have one of those. I'll buy one
that makes sense to me. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (27:23):
Yeah. And the other day when I was at this
store and I bought that bond Arm's derringer, they had
one of the CVA scouts in forty five seventy. And
you know, I can't afford to shoot too much forty
five seventy, but in a little single shot breake action,
that sounds like a good way to get into a
new caliber.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
I will tell you this, just a heads up. That
little gun and forty five seventy is like getting kicked
by a mule every time.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
It goes off.
Speaker 7 (27:53):
I'm ready for it. I'm only twenty six. I'm ready
to play around with it. But you know it might
not be I'm an everyday use gun, that's for sure.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
In my experience.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
It's one of those it sure seems like a fun idea,
and after a few shots, you're going, I'm not really
enjoying this as much as I thought I would. And look,
I like to shoot heavy, kicking guns, but that's son
of a gun. I shot one of those and it
was vicious, so just look, do what you want to do.
Speaker 6 (28:22):
And I get it.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
You're young and you want to do what you want
to do, but man, I got to tell you be prepared.
Speaker 10 (28:26):
Okay, all RIGHTY will do.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Thanks Tom, thank you great range reports. And yeah, fill
us in on that Bond Arms actually had a chance
to shoot that. Obviously. We're looking for your range reports too.
If you've been out doing little shooting, you bought a
new gun, even if you haven't shot it yet, give
me a call let me know how that goes. And
also I want to talk a little bit more about
this concept of being ready to respond to violence with violence?
(28:52):
Are you prepared to visit violence upon someone to protect
yourself and your family? Our number here is eight six
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(31:23):
All right, Bell got to your eight sixty six Talk
gun Let's let's go to the phones. Connie is with
us in Georgia online too. Connie, thank you for calling in.
You're on gun Talk. What's going on?
Speaker 12 (31:34):
Hey, I'm going to be driving from Georgia to all
the New England states and New York uh in a
couple of months, and I have learned by my research
that I can't have a gun in my car in
New York and Massachusetts and some others. What can I
do to feel a little bit safer?
Speaker 6 (31:58):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Yeah, it's a federal law says you can carry your
guns through those states if the gun is unloaded and
in a locked case. The problem is those states don't
honor federal law, and you can and possibly might get
arrested for that.
Speaker 6 (32:15):
So you are smart to have research that.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
I would say probably if it were me, I'm going
with a couple of cans of pepper spray.
Speaker 11 (32:27):
Okay.
Speaker 12 (32:28):
What do you think about the burner launcher?
Speaker 3 (32:32):
I have Okay, I have two thoughts on that. One
I have no experience with it, and number two, I
yet to be impressed with the concept.
Speaker 6 (32:39):
Behind it.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I just not you know, and I know people say, well,
you don't have any experience with it, so how do
you know? I just know what I've seen all the
online stuff. I'm just not there.
Speaker 6 (32:53):
And so.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Me, I carry pepper spray and I have that in
addition to you. It's a lot cheaper, it's easier to carry.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
There may be in a jurisdiction where you could get
in trouble for having pepper spray, but probably not a
lot of trouble. Yeah, So I mean it's a viable alternative.
It's not as good, but you know, the main thing, Hey,
look here, you know what the main thing is, Connie,
is that you're already thinking about it. And the fact
that you're thinking about it means that you're going to
be alert, You're going to see what's going on, You're
going to check out your situation around you. Your situational
(33:28):
awareness is there already, and so that means you're ninety
five percent of the way they're and probably are not
going to need that additional five percent.
Speaker 6 (33:37):
But good on you.
Speaker 12 (33:38):
Great, great, thank you so very much.
Speaker 7 (33:41):
I love your show.
Speaker 6 (33:43):
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. All right, thanks for
that call.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Let's talk for a second about the Ed Monk interview,
and you talk about active shooters schools, particularly places where
they say, we know we have procedures in place, we
want all the students to hunt down in one place.
You see the actually great that makes it really easy
for the murderer to come in and kill them. All understanding,
(34:07):
the active shooters are there for only one reason, only
one is to run the body count up as high
as they possibly can. They write about it in their manifestos,
they put it in their videos that they post. The
idea is to have more people shot than other people
had shot in their active shooter deal. They have no
intention and no expectation of getting away. It's not part
(34:30):
of the plan. The plan is for them to either
die or get captured while they're there. And so the
only thing they want to do is run up the
body count. And nothing's going to stop them from doing
that except violence. What don't mean by violence? I mean
somebody shows up and points a gun at them or
shoots them, or maybe even attack them without a gun,
and that can't happen and has happened. A swarmp think
(34:53):
about a swarm of wasp just swarming over this guy.
You know, you get half does a b but just
rush him and knock him down. And they said, well,
somebody could get shot. Somebody's already getting shot. Somebody's getting
shot at a rate of one every three to six seconds.
That's what happens in these things. So my question to
(35:14):
you is this, are you ready and more than that,
are you primed to do swift violence, savage violence to someone,
because that's what we're really talking about here. It's reacting
really fast and being unbelievably, savagely, unthinkably violent against someone.
(35:44):
Because let me tell you, if you're not willing to
do that, and this is going to make a lot
of people uncomfortable, If you're not willing to do that,
then you are saying you are accepting the idea of
violence being perpetrated upon you and your family. You're okay
(36:06):
with somebody committing violence against you and your family, because
if you won't do anything about it, you're saying, I'm
okay with I prove that that's good.
Speaker 6 (36:14):
You can do that. Oh that makes people squirm, It
really does.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
When you tell people you're accepting of this, Well, we're
just going to wait until the police get here. Okay,
then you're okay with twenty or thirty people getting shot
when you could have made it fewer than ten. And
the way you get to fewer than ten is in
Edds the height of his book is you've got to
stop this person in the first thirty seconds.
Speaker 6 (36:41):
I mean, it's just math.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
If somebody's getting shot every three to six seconds, and
that's what it is. We know from the history, we've
documented this that if you want it to be fewer
than ten, you've got to stop it in thirty seconds.
How do you stop an active shooter in thirty seconds?
The police can't do it. A school resource officer on
(37:03):
scene cannot do it, just don't. Chances are they're not
even aware there's a shooting going on because they're in
another part of the building. Are they're in a different
building altogether. Generally speaking, you've got kids students who are
doing the shooting. Know who the SRO is, they know
where he is, they know how to avoid it. The
(37:26):
only person who can stop it is whoever is on
the scene right there where it's taken place. And the
best way to stop it is to have a firearm
and know what to do with it. But and you
know how much I approve and encourage you to practice
and get training and get real training. And that's very helpful.
(37:48):
It's a good thing to do, and it's fun to do.
But I don't think it's the most important thing, although
it probably adds to the most important thing. The most
important thing is the mental preparedness, the willingness to react
quickly and violently, to have already decided yesterday or last week,
(38:12):
or last month, or last year or ten years ago,
if this happens, this is what I will do. So
you've already come up with a plan, all you have
to do is hit the go button.
Speaker 6 (38:24):
Boom. I don't have to think about it anymore.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Whether it's active, you call it activating the mean gene
or the go button, or whatever you want to call it,
it's go time. And when that happens, like, okay, forget
everything else. I know what to do. I've identified the threat,
I see what's going on. I'm going to move in
on this threat, and I'm going to take him out.
I don't care if that means running open him with
(38:48):
my car, or if it means shooting him, or if
it means several of us just run at him and
knock him down to the ground. But if you have
decided ahead of time you can do this thing, and
you can and you will win, simple as that.
Speaker 6 (39:11):
Hey, here's the name you probably know.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
I remember John Stossel on ABC and did all the
reports on network television, and I kind of poke holes
in some of the things you've heard about and said, oh,
well that's yeah. No, he finds out, yeah, that's not true,
and he's really good at that. Well, we're gonna have
John Stossel on the show here and just a few
minutes talking about what's going on with the media and
why do they have these agendas, what are they doing,
(39:36):
why do they do what they do. That's gonna be
fun talking about. I want to switch back again to
this idea of mental preparedness and why do we do
what we do. One of the things that Edmunk talked
about is talking to schools. They have these lockdown drills.
He says, you know, we're gonna if there's an active shooter,
(39:57):
we're gonna do a lockdown. We're gonna lock the doors.
He pulled down the blinds and have all the students
hunker in a corner. He said, yeah, great. He says well,
he talked to me. He said, well, you see the
door there right, and it's got a big piece of
glass in it. Why wouldn't he just shoot out the
glass and then reach in and unlock the door. Their
sponsor gets says, well, they probably wouldn't do that. Huh, Well,
(40:22):
you see the doors just thin wood, Why wouldn't he
just shoot through the door. Or come, it's just sheet rock,
Why wouldn't he shoot through the walls? Or he probably
wouldn't do that, except that they have done that, and
that's what they do. I like the fact that he says,
you know, the thing about lockdown drill is it works
every day that you don't have an active shooter. Every
(40:45):
day you practice that lockdown drill. It works great. As
long as you don't have an active shooter, it'll be fine.
And then I like the analogy he said. You know
what they're doing. It's like saying, Okay, if we have
a fire in the school, we're all gonna lock our
doors and wait and see who gets here first. Is
the fire going to get to the kids and burn
(41:06):
them up, or is the fire department going to get
here and save them? And we're just gonna wait and
find out, because that's what they're doing. We're just gonna
wait here and see if this guy comes and kills
these kids, or if the police get there. It's gonna
be a race. We're gonna find out who wins today.
How about when he was a teacher, he said, well,
(41:26):
how about if I just break out the window here
and I got a bunch of eleventh graders and tell
them I'll just run across the school yard, run across
the street, and go to the post office over there.
You know what the response was, Well, that's a busy street.
We don't want those eleven graders running across a busy street.
(41:49):
We can't have the liability of that. We got somebody
trying to kill them, shoot them, but we can't have
them crossing the street. If you have children and grandchildren
in school, you need to have this conversation with them,
and the conversation is pretty short. I hope you have
(42:11):
prepped him for this so they're responsive to it. They're
ready for it, which is, you do not have to
listen to the teachers and administrators in that situation. Your
goal is to get out and get away. If they're
saying no, you've got to stay here you go buy God,
you know, because you got a whole bunch of rule abiters, administrators, principals, teachers,
(42:36):
they have policy. They have to follow their policy, because
nobody gets in trouble for following the policy. It's up
to you to help your children and grandchildren understand that
they're responsibilities to take care of themselves. And that may mean,
(42:57):
and probably in this case, does mean ignore what you're
being told to do. So in that situation, you got
to get out. I don't care if you open the
door and run down the hall and get out the street.
People say, well, what if there's a second shooter. Yeah,
that hardly ever happens, and if it does, that's the
chance you take. But getting away, getting distance is always
a good idea. You have to help them understand that
(43:18):
and provide them with the backup to say, and if
you disobey the teachers and everybody else in case of
a real shooting, you know, I don't worry about any
other consequences. I'll back you up on whatever you do.
Hard lessons, but this is hard stuff. This is real world. Hey,
when we come back, let's talk with John Stossel, a
guy who has been covering the media and part of
(43:39):
the media for many years and find out what's going
on with the media, why are they so biased,
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Speaker 2 (00:14):
He was the first and he's still the best. For
thirty years, Tom Gresham has been your trusted source on
all things ballistic, new guns, Second Amendment, personal protection, be
part of it, Paul, Tom Talk Gun Now, here's Tom.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
All right, let's do this thing. Hey, I'm Tom Gresham
and you have arrived at gun Talk. Welcome again. We're
going to be having some fun today. We've got some
politics to talk about, but we'll talk about cool new guns.
And of course we always want to talk about self
defense because traditionally throughout well as as long as I
have been checking on this, that's the number one reason
that people give is why they own guns is self
(00:52):
protection or self defense. And so along with that, of course,
now we're talking about the whole idea of mass shooters
or however you want to categorize. At these day, school shootings,
public shootings, it's a phenomenon and I'm afraid that a
lot of people still are not addressing it straightforward. Well,
(01:13):
one guy who is is retired to Lieutenant Colonel Ed Muck,
he joined just right now, had you got this brand
new book out first thirty seconds, I start off with that,
what's that mean?
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Well, it's all about time, Tom, thanks for having me
on your radio show.
Speaker 5 (01:30):
When you look at the active shooter.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
If we want to reduce and minimize the number of victims,
and I've never met anybody that doesn't want say they
want to minimize the victims, it's all about time. He is.
The active shooter is going to shoot a new person
every few seconds. And if you look at past active
shooters and you can see what the average rate is
of which they shoot new people. If we want to
have a low victim count, which I kind of talk
(01:53):
about as a single digit victim count zero to nine,
then given the average active shooter shoot rate, we've got
to stop within the first thirty seconds to have that
mathematical chance of mathematical expectation. And there is no way
to communicate with someone who's not at the attack site
when it starts and get them there within thirty seconds,
So that leaves us, by default with the only way
(02:14):
to do this is the victims.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
He came to shoot have to stop him. It's all
about time and math.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Time and Matt Well, the other way i've heard it
express this is called the stop watch of death. The
longer it goes, more people die.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yeah, the great run borsch absolutely, and this is so obvious,
we're still not using it.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
We know it for fire.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
We know if your kitchen catches fire, if you put
it out in fifteen seconds with a fire exting is
sure there'll be far less damage and if you wait
for the fire department. But we're still not seeing that
with the active shooter, even though it's so obvious. We
focus on how can we get the cops there five, ten,
fifteen seconds quicker, which, okay, if you get the cops
to the active shooter seeing fifteen seconds quicker than maybe
(02:55):
the victim count'll be twenty eight instead of thirty.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
But that's not the end of the spectrum. Think we
should be focusing on.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
We should have it stopped before the cops ever get
to the attack site if we want a low victim count,
that's really the only way to expect it.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And we have very clear examples of both sides of this,
of waiting, dialing nine to one one and asking and
praying for somebody to please drive across town and bring
a gun, versus having somebody on scene and stopping it
because and you pointed out, look, the deal is, the
people who are doing mass shootings they know they're either
going to get killed or they're going to get caught.
(03:29):
They're not worried about getting away, and so they are
there to run up the highest body count they can.
And when you have somebody on scene who's and they
basically stop, right ed. They stopped the moment somebody with
a gun shows.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Up, Well, they stop as soon as they're confronted with
deadly violence. Okay, So we absolutely know what works one
hundred percent of the time, and that's confronting them with
deadly violence, and they won't return to shooting their victims
unless who ever confronted them with deadly violence breaks contact,
which has happened in Uvalde and on Mine and Sania,
Sidrow and Boulder.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
So we know what works.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Get to him as soon as humanly possible, somebody get
to him and get close enough to threaten him with violence,
and don't let up, don't break contact until it's over.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
We just have to do that.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
In the first thirty seconds, not when the cops arrive
for six, eight, twelve minutes down the road.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
Well, either way, it stops. The problem is how many
victims will have.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
And you point out I look, people say, well I
want zero. Well zero's not available. Is a number because
the incident starts when the bad guy shoots somebody. So
somebody just got shot. That's how you know there's an
incident in the first place, right.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Yeah, hope, hope can't be part of the plan.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
I hope I don't get in a car accident, but
I have an airbag in my steering wheel in case
hope fails. So yeah, I don't want to get in
a car accident. I pray and hope I don't, but
the airbag is there in case hope and prayer fails.
It's the same reason we have life vests and boats
and the fire extinguish you're in the car, And it's
the same reason citizens carrying handguns. Well, yeah, I hope
(05:01):
there's never another active shooter attack. But if you're not
planning like there's going to be one tomorrow, you're not
adequately planning.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yeah, I've said before, Look the Pentagon, hope will get
you killed.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
That is not a plan. That's not a way to go.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
You have run into the most interesting responses in talking
to school administrators and teachers, and they have a myriad
of responses of why they don't want somebody there with
a gun. But it tends to for me, we want
to bounce this idea off of you. And I've said
for years the problem is if they admit that there's
(05:36):
a danger, then they have punctured their illusion of being safe,
and they don't want to feel unsafe. Therefore they will
pretend there's really no threat. What do you think.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
It's that they don't have any training, experience, or stomach
for planning for violence. So it's not that they're bad people.
It's not that they're stupid. They just have no experience
or stomach with us. Anything that we're uncomfortable with, that
we don't want to deal with, we outsource it. If
we don't like the sweating and stuff of cutting the grass,
we hire somebody. If we don't like to get messy
(06:11):
changing oil, we go to jipulary. We outsource people to
do that work. And that's fine as long as someone's
not getting shot every few seconds you're waiting on that
other person to do it. We can't outsource the active
shooter to the cops because someone's dying every few seconds,
so that they can't separate every other day from the
attack day. Every other day there's no need to have
(06:32):
a gun, but on the attack day there is. And
they'll admit that because I don't. They'll say I don't
want guns on this school campus. But you say, okay, well,
when the active shooter attacks your campus, god forbid, who
are you going to call for?
Speaker 5 (06:43):
Well, it's the police.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
And are you going to are you going to specify
to the nine one one operator that you don't want
the police to bring their guns to your campus?
Speaker 5 (06:50):
That know absolutely they want guns. So we all know
the solution. The best solution is.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
A good person with a gun getting to the active
shooter to stop him. The only question is time. Is
someone going to do it in the first thirty seconds
or are we going to wait on cops to do
it in six minutes? The solution is deadly violence. The
only variable is when how soon? That's the only variable.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
But look, I'm just going to toss up these soft
balls because you've heard all of this stuff the same
way I have. You know, But if you have a
teacher or a staff member or somebody else has a gun,
they're liable to shoot an innocent student. They're liable to
shoot the wrong person. And I keep thinking, I've not
heard of that happening.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Have you no right now? It could happen tomorrow, But
right now I don't know of an instance. We're an
act where a armed citizen shot the wrong person while
shooting an active shooter, and they've done that a number
of times, meaning they've successfully shot active shooters without shooting
any innocent people.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
Now, cops have shot innocent people multiple times.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Cops had shot each other by mistake three different times
that I know of while responding an active shooter. So
armed citizens have a better accuracy rate and a better
safety record in shooting active shooters than do cops. Plus
they have a better record of ending the attack with
a lower victim count because they're there and end it
very quickly, Whereas the cops, even if they're brave and
(08:08):
well equipped and do God's work.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Once they show up, it's just too late.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
So the boogeyman arguments that I talk about in the
book is I think what you're talking about, and it's
that there is no perfect solution. You know, people having
guns is a risk, it's just a less of a
risk than letting him shoot twenty or thirty of us
waiting on the cops. So they'll focus on the negativity
of the best solution, that they don't want the best
(08:33):
solution because it makes them uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
It's almost like you said, Okay, you have a fire
and you have three people here with fire extinguishers, but
you tell no, no, no, no, you need to wait five
to ten minutes before you start using those fire extinguishers
to put out this fire. And people would say, well,
that's crazy, and we'll go yeah, that's kind of my point,
didn't it.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
And if a school's policy was, if if actual fire
breaks out in our school building, our policy as you
stay where you are, you wait and see who gets
to you the quickest, who gets to you first, the
fire or the fireman. I would hope if that was
the policy that parents would enforce come to the school
(09:12):
board meeting and demand a change. That is lunacy, it's dangerous,
but that is our plan for active shooters. And I'm
shocked all the time that parents allow this. The policy
of most schools is for active shooters. Yeah, we'll take
some evasive measures, we'll turn out some lights, we'll lock
some doors, but basically, you can shoot any of us
(09:32):
you can find until the cops get here. And that's
why we keep getting high numbers. Lock down, stay where
you are, lock your doors, and see whether the active
shooter or the cops get to you first. That's most
schools policy, and it's absolutely insane. If we want a
low victim count, come shoot. You can shoot as many
of us as you can find until the cops get here.
(09:53):
Is a deadly horrible plan. But that's the plan of
ninety eight percent of schools in America.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Well, gar response do you get from administration when you
say that's actually your plan is to just let people
die until the cops get here.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
It's very uncomfortable. And now the reaction I get is varied.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Sometimes they will make sometimes they'll make changes, sometimes they won't.
The biggest change, the first change most schools need to make.
If their plan is lockdown, everybody does the same thing,
regardless of where they are in relation to the active shooter.
The first big change I try to get them to
make is okay, everybody doesn't do the same thing. Everybody
makes a decision and chooses to their options. They can run,
(10:33):
if that's possible, they can fight. That's the first big thing.
But the administrators get very uncomfortable because they're locked in.
They want to drill a policy with a drill that's
easy to type. It's easy to drill and it doesn't
make anybody uncomfortable, and the lockdown drill is perfect for that.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
It works beautifully every day the shooter doesn't show up.
It only interrupts the school day about five minutes. But
it gets people killed when they show up.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
But the big problem that I see, Okay, when I
was a company commander in the Army, a tank company commander,
I was the highest ranking guy in my company as
a captain that I had privates on my tank. If
my tank took a direct hit, I paid the same
price as my private If I made a mistake that
put my tank in danger, I paid the same price.
The problem we have with schools is the people making
(11:18):
the real decisions that cause harm or at the state
legislature and the superintendents and the school boards.
Speaker 5 (11:24):
They're not getting shot at.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
They don't pay the price for the horrible policies it's
the principles and below that are paying the price, and
I think that's one of the reasons we're not seeing changes.
You know, my state capitol here in Arkansas, the legislature
in my state capital, they don't have one cop an
SRO to protect the whole capital. They have an entire
capital police department to protect that capital building. And when
(11:46):
they're in session they bring in extra state troopers. They
know what'll protect them. It's a whole bunch of good
people walking around with guns that they won't let schools
do that.
Speaker 6 (11:56):
Wow.
Speaker 7 (11:57):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
The title of the book is First thirty Seconds. Now.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I should point out that you also provide training if
people want to get training, anything up to two three
day live fire training. Also, you do seminars on active
shooter response. All of that, and the book, of course
is available again First thirty Seconds.
Speaker 6 (12:15):
How do people get the book?
Speaker 4 (12:18):
They can go to the book website which is First
three zero dash Seconds dot com and on that website
it'll there's a buy now button that'll take you to Amazon,
or you can just go to Amazon and look for
First thirty Seconds.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Now.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
There's already been two books out there that have copied
it using AI to try to siphon off on book. Yeah,
I was told that happens. If they find a new
fast selling book, they'll use AI and create a new
book title. This one's Ed Monk's First thirty Seconds work book,
and then the other one is titled the First thirty Seconds,
(12:52):
So just make sure it's the black cover First thirty
Seconds by Ed Monk.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Well, they've even copied some of the elements. I'm looking
on it as actually copied some of the elements of
your book and graphics with a stopwatch. So you want
First thirty Seconds by Ed Munk. It is nineteen eighty
nine on Amazon. That's how I got it.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
Here's a paperback and the Kendles three ninety ninety.
Speaker 6 (13:14):
Oh okay, good deal.
Speaker 7 (13:15):
Ed.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
It's a really good book. It's a really good concept.
I am so glad you're doing this out of a
passion for this in wanted to save lives, and I
really appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 6 (13:26):
Tom.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
All right, thank you, sir. All right, don't go far.
Gun talk will be right back.
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Speaker 5 (15:37):
Hey Tom Rob Lath, I'm and congratulations. I can't believe
it's lasted this long. And I also can't believe you're
still shooting low and laft through all these years.
Speaker 10 (15:45):
For God's sake, Son, hold the gun, steady, pull the
trigger without moving.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Well now, welcome back. By the way, I'm Tom gresher Man.
If you want to join us, it's just as easy
as it can be.
Speaker 6 (15:58):
Give me a call.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Eight sixty six Tall Gun or Tom Talk Gun, same number,
just different ways of getting there. Tom Talk Gun, We'll
get you in here. I am down actually broadcasting today
live from Columbus, Nebraska, in the middle of cornfields and
cows and having a good time over here. Made the
trip out here to do a celebration of life yesterday
(16:20):
for our buddy Ray Elgen. He's been a guest on
the show a number of times. Ray, of course, was
a veteran of the firem's industry. He was with Federal
Cartridge for many, many years and then a head of
sales at Loophole Loophole Scopes and for a number of
years unbelievably good wingshot. I ran into somebody who said,
(16:40):
you know, a hundred doves was rayed several times. He says,
I never saw him miss, and I thought, hm, I
heard it with Ray a lot. Actually I've never seen
him miss, Actually never. He was that good. So I
got a few more stories about Ray as we go along,
and some of the people I ran into as we
were coming out here interesting stuff. Let's first go to
(17:02):
the phones though, Line three. You've got Bruce out of Minnesota. Bruce,
you're on gun Talk. Talk to me.
Speaker 11 (17:09):
Good afternoon, beautiful day in the neighborhood, isn't it.
Speaker 6 (17:13):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 11 (17:16):
A few months ago I called and asked you about
the Browning ex Bolt two speed. I was himm and
an on about purchasing it because it's more customizable than
most guys. Well, I went out and purchased it, and
I've been to the range with it. Oh that's just
Oh that is a sweet firearm. The vortext that I
(17:40):
put on it, it's I got to lean too far up,
but I'm almost off the comb. So I was going
to go to a U. I went to Shields. That's
a big hardware.
Speaker 6 (17:52):
Store up here, right, shield.
Speaker 11 (17:58):
Yes, And I was talking with one of the sales
right there, and I was going to put a candle
lever on it to bring the scope back a little
bit more about three quarters of an inch to an inch.
And he said, don't those candle levers only for like
the AR platforms. I don't really know about that, so
(18:20):
I didn't. I didn't purchase anything. I'm calling the expert
in the field.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Okay, well let's go yeah, let's go back. Let's look
at the actual problem. Problem is the scope is not
too far forward, and you have to really claw and
climb your way up on the stock or on the
comb and put your head forward to see through it.
Speaker 6 (18:40):
Am I am? I correct? So far? Am I right? Correct?
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Okay, So why don't you just loosen the rings and
slide the scope back.
Speaker 11 (18:50):
I have done that, and I have switched the rings
so that it's it's moved farther back, it's still about
an inch. I gotta pull up an inch doesn't have
I don't have a really good sight picture or a relief.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Okay, I mean is the scope as far back as
it can go?
Speaker 11 (19:10):
Yes, sir?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
So you're running into the adjustable the turrets and it
won't slide back.
Speaker 6 (19:16):
Is that it? Now?
Speaker 11 (19:18):
The scope on the rifle? Is that as far back?
Speaker 12 (19:23):
Because I can.
Speaker 11 (19:23):
Get it, but I still have to go up and
I'm almost off the calm.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Okay, Well, that's what I'm asking is why why is
it as far back? I mean, why can't you move
it back any farther? What's going on?
Speaker 11 (19:36):
The rings are on the the scope as far as
it can and it doesn't have a the it's just mounted.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
To the rifle.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Okay, So here's I think you may want to take
it back to the store and say, hey, what have
you got? You may have to get a different scope.
You may have a scope that has it's like very
short scope and the turrets are in such a position
that you can't slide it further back. What's the magnification
(20:09):
of that scope?
Speaker 11 (20:09):
By the way, it's a vortex three point five ten
by fifty.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Okay, well, and so yeah, that's you should be able
to get that slid back to where it's in the
right position. I'm just wondering, seriously, I would take it
back to the store and the Yeah, the cantilever, I'm
not crazy about that idea. If you can avoid it
using the cant leaver mounts, go back and say, look,
what if you guys recommend what else you got? Is
(20:39):
there another scope? Is there a different scope mount? Is
there something we can do here, because you should be
able to use some standard scope mounts and be able
to get that scope back where you can get a
full field of view. And it may be and sometimes
this happens, and maybe that you just have to get
a different scope and try that and see if it'll
slide back in the rings without hitting the the turrets.
Speaker 11 (21:02):
Okay, yeah, it's I bought the uh, when I bought
the rifle, I bought the the scope rings, vortex scope
rings I had the house.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
You know, they do have they do have extended rings
where they kind of have a jog to them. It's
almost like cantilever, but it's not one of those big
cantilever setups. For ars, and you might just look at
extended rings and see if you can get something like that,
because you probably only need something like on the order
of three quarters of an inch would be my guess,
half to three quards of an inch. It probably will
(21:35):
take care of you. But yeah, take a look at
that and look at extended rings, you know, look at
the Vortex site. Also look at the site for Warren
W A R N E. Warren Scope rings, and there
are some other brands out there. You certainly don't have
to stick with Vortex, but you're gonna be able to
find it. But it is going to take a little
bit of experimentation and research and you'll get there. I mean,
(21:58):
and don't settle. Make sure you get it right so
that it fits the gun and it fits you well.
I appreciate the call, sir. All right, our number here,
the eight sixty six Talk Gun. We got Bruce lined up,
we got Eric lined up, but we got a room
for you if you want to join us.
Speaker 6 (22:11):
Give you a shout.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
I'm Tom Gresham and this is Gun Talk.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
I drove out here from Omaha, and I guess yesterday, No,
that's yesterday. I'm in Columbus Nebraska, came out here for
the celebration of life Arraled and our buddy and got
together with some of the folks from in the firearms industry.
There are a few of us out here who really
new Ray and had a really good time going to
swapping stories, telling tales and all the things.
Speaker 6 (22:45):
You do.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Get a little inside information on what's going on inside
of some of the gun companies and things that are
going on, and some of that I could share.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
Some you can't.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
You know, some things you're just told, okay, can't talk
about this, but that's okay, and we'll pass along some
of that at some point. I'll get to it just
a minute. I do want to follow up on the
interview with ed mank talking about active shooters and some
of the I guess observations of that are things that
I I'm not sure exactly I learned, but it was
(23:14):
reinforced in terms of what it takes to stop an
active shooter and what we should be doing and drilling
that down to what you individually should be doing.
Speaker 6 (23:28):
I'll have some thoughts on that in just a minute.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
First, I want to go to the phones here a
Ligne five Eric is with us out of New London,
New Hampshire. Eric, you're on gun Talk with range reports.
Help me out here.
Speaker 7 (23:39):
Hi Tom, longtime listener, first time caller. I appreciate you.
I got two range reports. One I haven't been able
to shoot yet. One I have yesterday at the gun store,
I bought a little bond Arms Deringer replica in nine milimeters,
so that one I haven't gotten the shoot, but I'll
be sure to update you when I do.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
Well.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
First of all, before you move up, wait, wait, wait,
before you move on, tell me why you bought a
bond Arnge Derringer in nine milimeters.
Speaker 6 (24:11):
What's the thinking here?
Speaker 7 (24:14):
It was a used gun on the gun under the
gun counter, and uh I was in there just browsing
yesterday and it caught my eye and I said, you
know what, why not?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Well, that's not a bad reason. I'm just trying to
figure out. I mean, as a carry gun, you're thinking, okay,
I want to be limited to two shots? Why I
want to have an exposed hammer?
Speaker 6 (24:36):
Why? What? I mean?
Speaker 3 (24:38):
I'm just trying to understand what's the purpose you're gonna
be doing with this.
Speaker 7 (24:44):
I think it was just going to be, you know,
maybe a gun I would carry in a in a
boot when I'm outside working in the yard or or something.
Put the CCI and some of that rat shot in
it or something just to have as an extra carry.
Speaker 6 (25:03):
Do you have at some point do you have rats
you need to deal with?
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Well, I mean, because a rat shot is not good
for anything other than maybe a snake or a rat.
It certainly isn't good as a self defense ate.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
No, it was.
Speaker 7 (25:14):
It would be more of like doing that would be
being out in the yard in the garden, and like
a snake snake gun. But other than that, it would
be just maybe an extra backup carry gun at some point.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Okay, all right, we'll move on, but please, if you would,
after you get out and shoot it a little bit,
then't give us a call and give us a full
range report.
Speaker 7 (25:34):
Hard. Okay, all right, we'll do.
Speaker 6 (25:37):
Okay, Now, what's the next gun?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
You got a range report on the next one?
Speaker 7 (25:41):
The next one is a CBA Scout. It's a single
shot break break barrel. Huh. It's the most unassuming gun
that I own, but I think it might be the
most fun gun that I own. I bought it in
three hundred blackout, and the thing shoots amazing. I put
(26:02):
a can on it, and it's one of the best shooter,
best shooting guns.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
That I own.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Okay, let me explain for I'm sure people understand. But
just in case you've got a fixed breech gun, it's
not a semiato because when you've got semi ado, you've
got gases gone out when the action's working. So all
the gas in this gun has to go out through
the barrel, which means through the suppressor, which with a
subsonic load and a three in a blackout, that thing
(26:28):
is like spooky quiet.
Speaker 6 (26:30):
Isn't it.
Speaker 7 (26:31):
Oh yeah, it's like shooting a pellet gun, maybe even quieter.
Speaker 6 (26:36):
Amazing. How is it for accuracy?
Speaker 7 (26:39):
The accuracy and it's great. I have it zeroed at
fifty yards and I've been able to shoot it out
to one hundred and you know, the thing will shoot
two inch group easy at one hundred yards. I just
put a little one power red dot on the top
and shooting the thing shoots amazing.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
They're short and they're light, and they're just handy as
they can be. So what is the plan? How do
you plan to implement this thing?
Speaker 7 (27:08):
I'm not sure the price was right and I don't
have anything in three hundred blackout. I think that's a
good reason right there.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
Yeah, I don't have one of those. I'll buy one
that makes sense to me. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (27:23):
Yeah. And the other day when I was at this
store and I bought that bond Arm's derringer, they had
one of the CVA scouts in forty five seventy. And
you know, I can't afford to shoot too much forty
five seventy, but in a little single shot breake action,
that sounds like a good way to get into a
new caliber.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
I will tell you this, just a heads up. That
little gun and forty five seventy is like getting kicked
by a mule every time.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
It goes off.
Speaker 7 (27:53):
I'm ready for it. I'm only twenty six. I'm ready
to play around with it. But you know it might
not be I'm an everyday use gun, that's for sure.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
In my experience.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
It's one of those it sure seems like a fun idea,
and after a few shots, you're going, I'm not really
enjoying this as much as I thought I would. And look,
I like to shoot heavy, kicking guns, but that's son
of a gun. I shot one of those and it
was vicious, so just look, do what you want to do.
Speaker 6 (28:22):
And I get it.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
You're young and you want to do what you want
to do, but man, I got to tell you be prepared.
Speaker 10 (28:26):
Okay, all RIGHTY will do.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Thanks Tom, thank you great range reports. And yeah, fill
us in on that Bond Arms actually had a chance
to shoot that. Obviously. We're looking for your range reports too.
If you've been out doing little shooting, you bought a
new gun, even if you haven't shot it yet, give
me a call let me know how that goes. And
also I want to talk a little bit more about
this concept of being ready to respond to violence with violence?
(28:52):
Are you prepared to visit violence upon someone to protect
yourself and your family? Our number here is eight six
six Talk gunow. Do you want to have a special
(29:12):
rifle that can do almost everything and that your friends
don't have? High I'm Tom Gresham, host of Gun Talk,
and here's the deal. Every few years we put out
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marks thirty years on the air, and this one is
really different. It's a general purpose rifle you can legally
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(29:57):
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(31:23):
All right, Bell got to your eight sixty six Talk
gun Let's let's go to the phones. Connie is with
us in Georgia online too. Connie, thank you for calling in.
You're on gun Talk. What's going on?
Speaker 12 (31:34):
Hey, I'm going to be driving from Georgia to all
the New England states and New York uh in a
couple of months, and I have learned by my research
that I can't have a gun in my car in
New York and Massachusetts and some others. What can I
do to feel a little bit safer?
Speaker 6 (31:58):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Yeah, it's a federal law says you can carry your
guns through those states if the gun is unloaded and
in a locked case. The problem is those states don't
honor federal law, and you can and possibly might get
arrested for that.
Speaker 6 (32:15):
So you are smart to have research that.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
I would say probably if it were me, I'm going
with a couple of cans of pepper spray.
Speaker 11 (32:27):
Okay.
Speaker 12 (32:28):
What do you think about the burner launcher?
Speaker 3 (32:32):
I have Okay, I have two thoughts on that. One
I have no experience with it, and number two, I
yet to be impressed with the concept.
Speaker 6 (32:39):
Behind it.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I just not you know, and I know people say, well,
you don't have any experience with it, so how do
you know? I just know what I've seen all the
online stuff. I'm just not there.
Speaker 6 (32:53):
And so.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Me, I carry pepper spray and I have that in
addition to you. It's a lot cheaper, it's easier to carry.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
There may be in a jurisdiction where you could get
in trouble for having pepper spray, but probably not a
lot of trouble. Yeah, So I mean it's a viable alternative.
It's not as good, but you know, the main thing, Hey,
look here, you know what the main thing is, Connie,
is that you're already thinking about it. And the fact
that you're thinking about it means that you're going to
be alert, You're going to see what's going on, You're
going to check out your situation around you. Your situational
(33:28):
awareness is there already, and so that means you're ninety
five percent of the way they're and probably are not
going to need that additional five percent.
Speaker 6 (33:37):
But good on you.
Speaker 12 (33:38):
Great, great, thank you so very much.
Speaker 7 (33:41):
I love your show.
Speaker 6 (33:43):
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. All right, thanks for
that call.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Let's talk for a second about the Ed Monk interview,
and you talk about active shooters schools, particularly places where
they say, we know we have procedures in place, we
want all the students to hunt down in one place.
You see the actually great that makes it really easy
for the murderer to come in and kill them. All understanding,
(34:07):
the active shooters are there for only one reason, only
one is to run the body count up as high
as they possibly can. They write about it in their manifestos,
they put it in their videos that they post. The
idea is to have more people shot than other people
had shot in their active shooter deal. They have no
intention and no expectation of getting away. It's not part
(34:30):
of the plan. The plan is for them to either
die or get captured while they're there. And so the
only thing they want to do is run up the
body count. And nothing's going to stop them from doing
that except violence. What don't mean by violence? I mean
somebody shows up and points a gun at them or
shoots them, or maybe even attack them without a gun,
and that can't happen and has happened. A swarmp think
(34:53):
about a swarm of wasp just swarming over this guy.
You know, you get half does a b but just
rush him and knock him down. And they said, well,
somebody could get shot. Somebody's already getting shot. Somebody's getting
shot at a rate of one every three to six seconds.
That's what happens in these things. So my question to
(35:14):
you is this, are you ready and more than that,
are you primed to do swift violence, savage violence to someone,
because that's what we're really talking about here. It's reacting
really fast and being unbelievably, savagely, unthinkably violent against someone.
(35:44):
Because let me tell you, if you're not willing to
do that, and this is going to make a lot
of people uncomfortable, If you're not willing to do that,
then you are saying you are accepting the idea of
violence being perpetrated upon you and your family. You're okay
(36:06):
with somebody committing violence against you and your family, because
if you won't do anything about it, you're saying, I'm
okay with I prove that that's good.
Speaker 6 (36:14):
You can do that. Oh that makes people squirm, It
really does.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
When you tell people you're accepting of this, Well, we're
just going to wait until the police get here. Okay,
then you're okay with twenty or thirty people getting shot
when you could have made it fewer than ten. And
the way you get to fewer than ten is in
Edds the height of his book is you've got to
stop this person in the first thirty seconds.
Speaker 6 (36:41):
I mean, it's just math.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
If somebody's getting shot every three to six seconds, and
that's what it is. We know from the history, we've
documented this that if you want it to be fewer
than ten, you've got to stop it in thirty seconds.
How do you stop an active shooter in thirty seconds?
The police can't do it. A school resource officer on
(37:03):
scene cannot do it, just don't. Chances are they're not
even aware there's a shooting going on because they're in
another part of the building. Are they're in a different
building altogether. Generally speaking, you've got kids students who are
doing the shooting. Know who the SRO is, they know
where he is, they know how to avoid it. The
(37:26):
only person who can stop it is whoever is on
the scene right there where it's taken place. And the
best way to stop it is to have a firearm
and know what to do with it. But and you
know how much I approve and encourage you to practice
and get training and get real training. And that's very helpful.
(37:48):
It's a good thing to do, and it's fun to do.
But I don't think it's the most important thing, although
it probably adds to the most important thing. The most
important thing is the mental preparedness, the willingness to react
quickly and violently, to have already decided yesterday or last week,
(38:12):
or last month, or last year or ten years ago,
if this happens, this is what I will do. So
you've already come up with a plan, all you have
to do is hit the go button.
Speaker 6 (38:24):
Boom. I don't have to think about it anymore.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Whether it's active, you call it activating the mean gene
or the go button, or whatever you want to call it,
it's go time. And when that happens, like, okay, forget
everything else. I know what to do. I've identified the threat,
I see what's going on. I'm going to move in
on this threat, and I'm going to take him out.
I don't care if that means running open him with
(38:48):
my car, or if it means shooting him, or if
it means several of us just run at him and
knock him down to the ground. But if you have
decided ahead of time you can do this thing, and
you can and you will win, simple as that.
Speaker 6 (39:11):
Hey, here's the name you probably know.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
I remember John Stossel on ABC and did all the
reports on network television, and I kind of poke holes
in some of the things you've heard about and said, oh,
well that's yeah. No, he finds out, yeah, that's not true,
and he's really good at that. Well, we're gonna have
John Stossel on the show here and just a few
minutes talking about what's going on with the media and
why do they have these agendas, what are they doing,
(39:36):
why do they do what they do. That's gonna be
fun talking about. I want to switch back again to
this idea of mental preparedness and why do we do
what we do. One of the things that Edmunk talked
about is talking to schools. They have these lockdown drills.
He says, you know, we're gonna if there's an active shooter,
(39:57):
we're gonna do a lockdown. We're gonna lock the doors.
He pulled down the blinds and have all the students
hunker in a corner. He said, yeah, great. He says well,
he talked to me. He said, well, you see the
door there right, and it's got a big piece of
glass in it. Why wouldn't he just shoot out the
glass and then reach in and unlock the door. Their
sponsor gets says, well, they probably wouldn't do that. Huh, Well,
(40:22):
you see the doors just thin wood, Why wouldn't he
just shoot through the door. Or come, it's just sheet rock,
Why wouldn't he shoot through the walls? Or he probably
wouldn't do that, except that they have done that, and
that's what they do. I like the fact that he says,
you know, the thing about lockdown drill is it works
every day that you don't have an active shooter. Every
(40:45):
day you practice that lockdown drill. It works great. As
long as you don't have an active shooter, it'll be fine.
And then I like the analogy he said. You know
what they're doing. It's like saying, Okay, if we have
a fire in the school, we're all gonna lock our
doors and wait and see who gets here first. Is
the fire going to get to the kids and burn
(41:06):
them up, or is the fire department going to get
here and save them? And we're just gonna wait and
find out, because that's what they're doing. We're just gonna
wait here and see if this guy comes and kills
these kids, or if the police get there. It's gonna
be a race. We're gonna find out who wins today.
How about when he was a teacher, he said, well,
(41:26):
how about if I just break out the window here
and I got a bunch of eleventh graders and tell
them I'll just run across the school yard, run across
the street, and go to the post office over there.
You know what the response was, Well, that's a busy street.
We don't want those eleven graders running across a busy street.
(41:49):
We can't have the liability of that. We got somebody
trying to kill them, shoot them, but we can't have
them crossing the street. If you have children and grandchildren
in school, you need to have this conversation with them,
and the conversation is pretty short. I hope you have
(42:11):
prepped him for this so they're responsive to it. They're
ready for it, which is, you do not have to
listen to the teachers and administrators in that situation. Your
goal is to get out and get away. If they're
saying no, you've got to stay here you go buy God,
you know, because you got a whole bunch of rule abiters, administrators, principals, teachers,
(42:36):
they have policy. They have to follow their policy, because
nobody gets in trouble for following the policy. It's up
to you to help your children and grandchildren understand that
they're responsibilities to take care of themselves. And that may mean,
(42:57):
and probably in this case, does mean ignore what you're
being told to do. So in that situation, you got
to get out. I don't care if you open the
door and run down the hall and get out the street.
People say, well, what if there's a second shooter. Yeah,
that hardly ever happens, and if it does, that's the
chance you take. But getting away, getting distance is always
a good idea. You have to help them understand that
(43:18):
and provide them with the backup to say, and if
you disobey the teachers and everybody else in case of
a real shooting, you know, I don't worry about any
other consequences. I'll back you up on whatever you do.
Hard lessons, but this is hard stuff. This is real world. Hey,
when we come back, let's talk with John Stossel, a
guy who has been covering the media and part of
(43:39):
the media for many years and find out what's going
on with the media, why are they so biased,
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