-- The U.S. Department of Education just awarded a grant to aid teaching the Second Amendment. Ashley Hlebinsky reveals how that came about.
-- The myth of using rock salt loads for defense can get you killed.
-- It's 120 years old, but the .30-06 cartridge still does everything hunters need.
Gun Talk 12.07.25 Hour 3
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- The myth of using rock salt loads for defense can get you killed.
-- It's 120 years old, but the .30-06 cartridge still does everything hunters need.
Gun Talk 12.07.25 Hour 3
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Gun Time.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
All right, welcome back to gun Talk. Tom Gresham here.
Our number is eight sixty six Talk Gun. We hear
a lot of things that are wrong with the government.
The federal government does this and that, and it promotes
gun control. It does all that.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
But wait, something maybe changing.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
Just got word of a Second Amendment research project, if
you will, that's nonpartisan. Joining me right now is our
old friend Ashley Levinski joins just Ashley what's going on
with this the Department of Education spending money for a
nonpartisan Second Amendment effort.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
Yes, so it's really exciting.
Speaker 7 (01:46):
I know it's been a while since we talked, but
one of my projects that I'm working on right now
is that I'm the executive director of the University of
Wyoming College of Laws Farms Research Center. We've been around
for a few years, are still pretty new, but in
honor of the two hundred and fiftieth a grant announcement
(02:06):
went out in the summer of this year looking for
different applications that help educate civics classes, high school, middle
school civics classes around the country on various parts of
the Constitution. So obviously the Farms Research Center doing a
lot of work in the Second Amendment sphere. We decided
to write a grand application and it was accepted.
Speaker 6 (02:28):
So we're pretty excited about that.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
All right, Before we go any further, my map, people
stand Wait a minute, I know that voice. Tell people
who you are with the Cody Museum and all the
TV stuff. You've done everything else.
Speaker 7 (02:39):
Yeah, So I'm Ashley. I'm a firearms historian. Most people
know me for my ten years I spent with the
Cody Firearms Museum, during which I was in charge of
a full remodel of the museum.
Speaker 6 (02:51):
And now I.
Speaker 7 (02:52):
Work as a full time consultant, and so I work
with this research center that I helped to found with
George Moxery, who is a Second Amendment scholar, and I've
got a bunch of museum projects. I'm working on some
gun history projects for companies, and so I've just kind
of been a little bit everywhere in the history and
firearms sphere over the years. But the project that I'm
working on right now at the Farms Research Center is
(03:14):
pretty exciting.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
And of course they know you from television as well.
Speaker 6 (03:18):
Oh yeah, yeah, I guess that too. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (03:21):
I've been on gun stories with Joe Montana for like
a decade.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
I had a.
Speaker 7 (03:25):
Short lived show on the Discovery Channel, and I've done
lots of things over the years. I think most recently,
I was on Fox Nations. Sean Hannity had a history
show called Wanted Dead or Alive, which covered kind of
gangster era crime, you know, John Dillinger, baby Face, Nelson,
Bonnie and Clyde, and I was one of the on
(03:46):
camera experts talking about.
Speaker 6 (03:47):
The firearms of gangsters during the Prohibition era.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
So what's going on with the University of Wyoming in
this project, because I think people don't really know about this.
Speaker 7 (03:55):
Yeah, So the Firearms Research Center, like I said, it's
pretty new. We got started a few years ago and
it's been doing really well. It's still pretty small operation.
It's mostly George and Ile that we are hiring. Especially
from this grant, we're able to hire a full time
research structor, which we're very excited about. But for the
most part, we've been kind of balancing three major pillars
(04:17):
of our scholarship. So obviously academia and trying to get
better firearms history, firearms and law information out into the
world has been very important to us.
Speaker 6 (04:28):
So we've been hosting.
Speaker 7 (04:29):
Conferences, we host a monthly webinar series, We've been publishing
working papers on our website Firearms Research Center dot org,
and so we've been doing a lot with that kind
of part of firearms research. And we've also been doing
a lot with students. So we've sponsored fellowships. My colleague
George Moxrey, who is a professor at the University of Wyoming,
(04:50):
actually teaches a firearms and Second Amendment course.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
In fact, he co wrote the.
Speaker 7 (04:55):
First ever Second Amendment casebook, which is kind of cool.
And then we've all been doing a lot of community
outreach over the years. So one of our big initiatives
is suicide prevention, which is very obviously unfortunately relevant nationally
as well as in the state of Wyoming. So we've
been doing a lot with that, and so when we
saw this opportunity for a grant to help with secondary
(05:18):
school education, we decided to throw our hat in the ring.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
I'm just thinking about what you're doing with university, and
there are people may or may not be aware. There
are other universities around the country. They get funded big
time by people like Michael Bloomberg, and they have Second
Amendment or gun violence efforts, and it is all, I mean,
entirely one hundred percent anti gun. And so this is like,
(05:44):
as far as I can see, the first real effort
to counteract a bit of that.
Speaker 7 (05:49):
Yeah, So when we got the research center started. Part
of the reason that I got involved early on was
because even though it's out of law school, we wanted
it to go beyond just, you know, the study of law.
And since my background is history, George approached me about
being involved because basically, we wanted to make sure that
this was an interdisciplinary study of firearms because there is
(06:10):
so much misinformation about firearms for a range of different backgrounds,
and yes, there tends to be a lot of inaccurate
information that comes out of university systems, and so we
kind of wanted to create basically a center where we
could reach out beyond our silos and work with different universities,
different scholars to try to approach firearms from a holistic,
(06:33):
nonpartisan kind of approach. And we've done I think, I
mean I'm biased, but I think we've done a pretty
good job. I mean, we really do welcome different opinions
on firearms and firearms scholarship. You know, we're open to
having discussions, having you know, civil dialogue with people across
the spectrum of a gun debate, but do so in
(06:53):
a way where it's educational and not for any particular agenda.
And that's been something we've been working really really hard
on over the years, and I think we've had some
pretty good success, you know, despite it being such a
difficult space in order to have these conversations.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
Okay, so with this grant that you're getting, is this
something that individual schools can apply to the university to say, Okay,
we want to do a program in our school, let.
Speaker 7 (07:20):
Me explain exactly what the grant is, what we actually
asked for, and then I can answer that if that's okay,
I'll be quick. The grant that we applied for, we
basically wanted to approach Second Amendment scholarship in the high
school classroom from a couple of different perspectives. So obviously
there's the student perspective, and so part of our grant
is to create these historical instructional videos that can be
(07:43):
used in the classroom on different Second Amendment topics, so
you know, the textual history of the Second Amendment, but
then also the militia in you know, colonial and revolutionary America,
but even moving forward into the National Firearms Act, the
look at kind of the second founding era, which is
around the ratification the Fourteenth Amendment and all these different
(08:04):
times throughout history where we've had, you know, movement and
discussion about the Second Amendment in a various.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
Number of ways.
Speaker 7 (08:11):
So that's kind of the big student component of it.
But then the other part that we really wanted to
focus on was working with teachers because the information out
there on firearms is often, you know, a little skewed,
but it's also not necessarily easy to get the information
if you're trying to kind of look for it. And
(08:32):
so we wanted to create something where teachers could interact
with us and learn more about the Second Amendment and
then also engaged with scholars on the topic on a
range of different topics within the Second Amendment sphere.
Speaker 6 (08:45):
Here's my dogs. So I wanted we.
Speaker 7 (08:47):
Wanted to be able to help teachers find information if
they wanted it. So we're doing several different parts of that.
So one is we're going to do a quarterly webinar
series where we pick topics relevant to this Second Amendment.
We bring in scholars from different perspectives, let them kind
of basically provide their argument. We can do counter arguments,
(09:08):
but then let the.
Speaker 6 (09:08):
Teachers engage with people.
Speaker 7 (09:10):
Because usually when they engage with somebody that you know,
quote unquote knows the topic, they only engage with the
people they agree with, right, And so we wanted to
find a way for them to be able to hear
kind of the whole story, and that way they have
a more nuanced perspective of it when they go and
talk to their students. And then we're also going to
be doing a conference that's in.
Speaker 6 (09:31):
Person where we'll be doing in are two things.
Speaker 7 (09:34):
One obviously Second Amendment history law background, but then also
workshops to teach the teachers, if.
Speaker 6 (09:41):
You will, how to talk about this.
Speaker 7 (09:44):
In the classroom because it's obviously a hotly contested topic.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
It's a political topic, so we.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
Want teachers to be able to feel empowered, to be
able to answer difficult questions or even how to bridge
those conversations in the first place.
Speaker 6 (09:58):
And so it's kind of a too pronged approach to.
Speaker 7 (10:01):
Working and getting better information for the students, but then
also empowering the teachers to know more and feel more
confident to tackle the topic instead of either going off
of misinformation.
Speaker 6 (10:12):
Or just avoiding the subject altogether. And I said I'd
do it quickly, but I lied to you.
Speaker 7 (10:19):
The last component of it is we're working on a
historical law database with links to primary source documents, so
all firearms.
Speaker 6 (10:26):
Loss throughout American history.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
And because of this grant, we're actually able to attach
an AI feature to it, so we'll be giving teachers
that want to participate, which gets to your question, access
to that so that they have a resource for their
students where they can access primary source material, you know,
just to basically, you know, not our opinion on it,
but here's the PDF of the law, you know, so
(10:49):
they have access to that for better scholarship. So it's
kind of a bunch of different things. That's pretty cool.
But I was happy to be able to get both
sides of it, because if teachers don't feel comfortable talking
about it, they won't and that's not helping anybody today, right.
Speaker 5 (11:06):
It's fantastic Ash DeBie, what you're doing and getting nearly
a million dollars from the US Department of Education to
do this and promote true scholarship all the Second Amendment.
Speaker 6 (11:16):
Congratulations, thank you so much.
Speaker 7 (11:19):
And you did mention how people can find us. We
will be posting probably in the next week firem's on
Firearms Research Center dot org. We will have a tab
for the grant with a sign up so we will
be engaging with different associations, teacher associations and groups. But
also if you hear this and your teacher and you
want to know more, you want to be in our
(11:40):
webinars are considered for our conference.
Speaker 6 (11:42):
If you go to our website.
Speaker 7 (11:44):
We will have a tab open where you can sign up,
and then we'll start to send you information as we get.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
Rolling Firearms Research Center dot Org. Thank you so much,
always a pleasure. We'll be right back with more gun talk.
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Speaker 5 (14:17):
All right, we're with you again. And second here I
will tell you about something's going on in the Department
of Justice about the Second Endment. I get that. Just
a second. Here the first to me talk with Travis
Online three out of Littleton, Colorado. Travis, what's on your mind?
Speaker 8 (14:32):
Sir?
Speaker 11 (14:33):
Hi Tom, Hey, this is totally off topic, off the wall.
It's been a question of mine for a while. I'm
an old guy, and back in the days when I
was a little kid and stealing watermelons from the local
farmers here, these guys were loading shotgun shells with lot salt. Wow,
(14:54):
was that a real thing?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
You know?
Speaker 5 (14:58):
I have heard that say in the old days. It's
funny you mentioned, because I've always heard the exact same thing.
If you're stealing watermelons, allably get shot with rock salt
because they put that in the shotgun shells.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I don't know, I mean, you know what.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
We've heard it enough that even if it was made
up at the beginning, I'm sure someone heard that story
and said, well, I'll try that.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I would hope that people.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Know now that would not be a smart thing to do,
because shooting someone with a shotgun saying well, it's not
lethal load that could end up sending you to prison.
That just would be a terrible, terribly bad idea.
Speaker 11 (15:37):
Yeah, I wasn't planning on doing it, but I thought
i'd ask the question just to see if that was
the real thing.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
You know, I don't have any solid info, but I
you got to think that it had to happen sometime.
Speaker 11 (15:54):
Well, maybe somebody will call in and give us some.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
There you go, we're throwing out there somebody who said, yeah,
I did that. That was easy guy. Thanks for havis.
Appreciate that. All right, this is a fascinating story. There's
a lot of chatter online about the United States Department
of Justice under the US Attorney General Pam Bondy and
of course Donald Trump. Are they program or anti gun?
(16:20):
Are they pro Second Amendment of anti Secondmendment? Well, it
kind of depends on where you fall. I would offer
they are the most pro gun rights, pro Second Amendment
Department of Justice and administration probably in the last fifty years,
maybe one hundred years. But that didn't make them perfect.
(16:44):
The Department of Justice is still defeating the National Firings Act,
the regulation of short bare rifles and machine guns and such.
We would like for them to stop doing that so
we could get the NFA to go away. But having
said that, they've been doing a lot of really, really
good things. Harmeat Dillon is the Assistant US Attorney in
(17:09):
charge of the Civil Rights Division, and she went out
to the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department said, hey, you guys
are taking two years to issue conceal K permits. You
can't do that. We're going to take a look at that.
But it didn't take long for them to come in
there and say we're going to take a hard look
at that with the power of the federal government, with
enforcement power behind them to make things start changing. And
(17:34):
they have notified other sheriff's departments and departments saying you
cannot sit on these you have to issue these permits.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Okay. So here's what just happened.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
A story from writers the News Agency out of England
says the Department of Justice has announced plans to create
the first ever dedicated Second Amendments section within the agency's
Civil Rights Division. Now, they haven't given us a lot
of details on this, and this story just broke a
(18:08):
couple of days ago. If Ham Bondi says the Second
Amendment is not a second class right. After the prior
administration's campaign to infringe on Americans gun rights, the Justice
Department is strongly committed to undoing the damage. This unit
within our Civil Rights Division will advance President Trump's pro
(18:31):
Second Amendment agenda and protect the right to keep and
bear our arms for all.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
What could it do? What could it do a lot?
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Because this is not like the window dressing Biden administration.
They put an Office of Gun Violence in the White House,
but that didn't have any enforcement ability. This is a
part of the Department of Justice and the Civil Rights
(19:05):
Division where they have law enforcement authority. They can go
in and investigate, or seek consent decrees, or do all
sorts of things to use the power of the federal
government to protect and enhance and advance the Second Amendment.
I am encouraged. You know, I don't know, none of
(19:29):
us actually know how this is going to work out.
But the look, the mere fact they have announced the
creation of this special section is incredible. It is amazing,
and it's telling the country, telling the world. This administration
(19:51):
is saying the Second Amendment is important. It's a real right.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
It's not what a phony right.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
It's not a second class, right, and we're going to
protect it and we know what's been done to it
in the past, and we're going to move.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
So that's where we are.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Like I say, this story is about two to three
days old, and as it develops, I'll give you updates
around here.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Okay, fair enough, let's see. Let me grab dude. All right,
we got two minutes for Douglas Line four, Little Rock, Arkansas,
Douglas thirty out six. Talk to me.
Speaker 12 (20:18):
I'll talk quick. You talked about thirty oll six. I
think that the beauty of the thirty out six has
started out with the nineteen oh three service rifle. It
became surplus really after World War Two. I have four
of them, and I have three A threes, two I
inherited through my wife, one I bought myself, and I
(20:39):
have an A four sniper version. And yeah, it'll take
on just about anything you want to take on in
North America. But Lord, have mercy. It do kick a ton.
And I'm not a big guy, but I love them.
I've got enough guns to equip us a platoon at
least Harry can see it. But ok six is just iconic.
(21:02):
I mean, it's like the thirty thirty thirty thirty's bagged
more deer than any other rifle.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
End.
Speaker 12 (21:08):
Yeah, the ALL six is probably taking more moose, bear
and deer than all of them combined.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
So I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
I wouldn't meet at all surprised thirty out six and
you know, yeah, it kicks, But I will tell you
the design of the rifle makes a big difference. And
we've got modern stock designs now that really help take
a lot of the recoil out. And one of the
reasons I think the thirty out six is so popular
is because it's kind of the top end of what
(21:35):
a lot of people can shoot and handle the recoil.
You start getting into three hundred magnums and.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
They really can't.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
It really hurts you. But you can learn to shoot
an AT six. You can master the recoil. And I don't,
of course I shoot a lot. I don't think they're
real bad. The other thing about the AT six, and honestly,
the reason I wanted one and probably make it my
standard hunting rifle is that anywhere you can legally hunt
(22:01):
on this planet, you can find thirty out six.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Ammo. There's AMMO everywhere. Yeah, I mean, you run out.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
Of AMMA, you lose your AMMO whatever it is, You
go into local store, you go to a gas station,
labl of find thirty out six.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Or you could just stop somebody who's driving around and say, hey,
you got your thirty out six AMO. Yeah, we got some.
Back to the house. We can get you.
Speaker 5 (22:21):
Guarantee you you can find out six AMO anywhere. Besides that,
you know what, it just flat works, and so you
can talk about America forty.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Five ACP and thirty out six. I am all in.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
Well, this just happened last week. It was kind of fun.
Somebody said this to me and I didn't know it
was out there Outdoor Life with on their website. Now,
Outdoor Life Magazine just republished my father's article that was
originally published in nineteen sixty four, and it's about my
(22:58):
first deer I shot my first year in nineteen sixty two,
when I was eleven years old, right after right at Thanksgiving.
It's got photos of me and the deer and the
rifle and the whole story about taking the deer. I
was using a semi auto Winchester Model one hundred threeh
eight thirty caliber and I'm thinking about you know, the
(23:22):
three eight to thirty out six are essentially identical. I mean,
the odd six might get you one hundred feet per
second more velocity, but it's inconsequential using the same bullets.
So it's funny that the started with a three O
eight and now I'm going to go to the thirty
out six and still using thirty caliber bullets going about
the same speed.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Just why would I do that?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Well, because they work, and because the thirty out six
is cool, and because it maybe it's going to drive
some of the cool kids crazy, because it's not. It
doesn't have a bunch of letters after the name like
PRC or creed More or whatever, you know, arc all
the cool things are doing now, just it just works.
You pointed at the creditor and you pull the trigger
(24:02):
and it falls down. So so anything I could do
to irritate the cool kids, it's always a fun thing
to do.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
That was never part of the cool kid club. I
can tell you that. Let's see LIGHTE five Allen's in
Fort Smith, Arkansas.
Speaker 13 (24:18):
Hey, Alan, Hey, good afternoon, sir.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
You got some thoughts on this rock saw deal.
Speaker 13 (24:25):
Well, I've actually got a live story about that. Back
in the day one of our neighbors had a farm
with a big rock quarry right off the Arkansas River
with some beautiful bluffs that the neighborhood kids love to
dive off of. But the pool where the quarry got
(24:46):
dangerous because the snakes started moving in.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Oh.
Speaker 13 (24:51):
The farmer told over all the kids they had to
start staying out of it. Of course we didn't do it.
Rettened us with the rock salt. One day, one of
the guys, the trees came right up to the edge
of these buffs. We were up there and one of
the guys came running and took a leap to go
(25:12):
into the water. When the owner unloaded loaded rock salt,
his back and legs all the way down. Yeah where
you could you could hear him scream in the water.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Well did he recover?
Speaker 13 (25:28):
Okay, Oh, he was fine. But there's just that rock
and all that water, rock salt and all that water
like the dickens, I guess. And we pretty much stayed
out there after that.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Well, I think that was this point. Did it work?
So you know, there you go.
Speaker 13 (25:44):
And it just worked and it was a real thing.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Wow, Okay, I guess it was. You got first experience
with it well, thank you for that. I'd always heard
about it, but never talked to anybody who had actually
run into that, so thank you. Basically, what we're talking
about is take a shotgun shell and peel and open
the front of it and pouring the lead pellets out
and then putting rock salt in. Why would you do that, Well,
(26:09):
salt doesn't have anything near the density of lead. It's
a very light weight for mass, and so it's not
going to carry a lot of energies. If you shot
somebody with the theory goes it's relatively close.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Test, it's not super close because it would be very dangerous.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
You could pepper them and just kind of steam without
causing a lot of damage like you would with a
regular shotgun.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Show.
Speaker 5 (26:32):
That was the theory, so evidently it was actually really done.
Let me just put in the warning here.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
That was then.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
This is now different time. We're talking half a century ago.
If you did that today, there's almost no chance you
would not be arrested and taking to jail. You just
this is not a thing you want to do. We're
in a different time. Pointing out of people, or certainly
(27:01):
shooting them with any sort of load is going to
attract the attention of the law enforcement folks. So you
just know it's just a big old no. Don't do
that fair enough. I also got an email from a
guy who has asked me a question about, well, what
if I get these laws and this scenarios?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
What if I'm.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
Walking my dog and somebody points a gun at me
and says he's going to steal my dog? He says,
my dog is like a member of my family. Excuse me,
I get it. Dogs are like a member of my family.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
He says.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
Could I brandish my gun at him to scare them away? Well,
it was an interesting question until we got to that
last part. Brandishing is most places is illegal flashing a
gun to frighten somebody. It's also a really really bad idea. Tactically,
(28:01):
Let's consider the situation you have someone who is pointing
a gun at you to rob you of something, whether
it's your money or your car, your dog. They have
a gun, and now you're going to try to scare
them away by showing your gun. What do you think
(28:26):
their reaction is going to be? Probably the same mine
would be if so one pointed a gun at me,
I'm probably gonna shoot them. If you don't think that's
the logical natural reaction. Point a gun at a police
offer and see if he or she doesn't shoot you,
(28:47):
Almost certainly you're going to have incoming fire. Clint Smith
used to say in his classes, if you want to
scare somebody, get a frightening rubber mask. Your gun is
not for scaring people away. The gun is for firing
bullets and nothing else. It's not for hitting people. People
(29:10):
talking about, oh you a pistol whip, Well I'll smack
them with my gun. Yeah, I know that's stupid. The
gun is a projectorile launcher. That's all it is. It's
primary benefit, if you start thinking about it this way,
it's giving you distance because without a gun to defend yourself,
you have to get in contact distance, right, You got
(29:32):
to get where you can hit somebody or push them,
or use a knife. All of these things put you
within reach of them. That's the whole deal, because if
you can reach them, they can reach you.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
A firearm. The beauty of that when it.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Was invented was it allowed you to project force somewhere
over yonder. You pull the trigger here and something happens
over there. That's the whole idea. When we do our
first person defender shows and we put people into these
scenarios and we watch what they do, It's always amazing
to me when people will give up the benefit of
(30:07):
the firearm. In the scenario, people get attacked and they
have these stimunition guns and they shoot the bad guy
and the bad guy falls down, and then where.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
They do they have used the gun the way it
was supposed to be used.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
They have used it to project force away from them
somewhere over there and deactivated this attacker attacker and then
going to Kojak Rockerd files fill in the blank. Of
any cop show you ever saw, they have to walk
over to the guy who was just trying to kill him,
(30:42):
who's laying on the ground, to kick away the gun
that's on the ground. At which point, if we can,
we like to have our role player who's a bad guy,
grab them by the ankles and take them down to
the ground, or stab him with a fake knife.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Or pull out another gun and shoot him.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
Why would you walk over and stand next to the
guy who was just trying to kill you.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
You need to be moving in the other direction.
Speaker 5 (31:21):
May I suggest that maybe you back up, find some cover,
put something between you and this guy who's laying on
the ground, pull your phone out and call nine to
one one and call it in. If he gets his gun,
he said, well, he's got a gun over there, yep.
But if you get this gun, reaches for it and
(31:43):
tries to shoot you, guess what.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
You still have your gun.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
You can still shoot him, or having deactivated him, you
can turn around and run and go somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
And people say, well, you know you're leaving the sea
of the crime. That's illegal. Baloney.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
Run one hundred yards away, run a city block away,
call the police and said, this is what happened.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
This is where I am.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
When you guys show up, I'll come back, but I'm
not going to stand there where this guy is. You're
not going to get into any trouble. Real simple, okay,
Oh yeah. Line three Todds with this out of Oregon.
Hey Todd, this guy in England with the picture of gun.
What do you think?
Speaker 14 (32:24):
Well, there was a little bit more of the story.
I'm totally on the same page as you. They shouldn't
have come and bothered him. I saw him interviewed on
Fox News. There was more to the story. He posted
video of himself shooting a semi auto in the United States.
He talked about a guy owing him a lot of
money back in Great Britain, and then he'd liked to
(32:45):
use it against him. That guy saw the video, called
the police and said he said, oh. Then they came over,
they talked to him, then they left. Then they came
back the next day, pushed in the door, took all
of his computers, arrested him. But then when it hit
the news how absurd it was, they let him go.
You have to have I'm a retired peace officer, to
(33:06):
make a threat, to charge somebody with a terrorist threat,
you have to have a reasonable expectation that you're going
to be able to carry it out. They'd be like
as stupid as me saying I hate Tom Grisham. You
know what, Tom, I'm going to touch off an intercontinental
blister nuclear tip missile and send.
Speaker 15 (33:24):
It your way.
Speaker 14 (33:25):
You're I'm not going to get charged unless I guess
I live in Great Britain.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
But a little bit yeah, because the shotgun was in England.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I was rather in Florida and the guy was in England.
Speaker 5 (33:37):
So it's kind of impossible to think about who's going
to shoot from Florida, England.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Okay, I see what you're saying. Go ahead, sir.
Speaker 14 (33:44):
And also, once you're talking about being prepared to use
a gun, if you're going to display a firearm. I
remember this from my police academy. Whenever they put a
gun in our hand and we pointed it at somebody.
Speaker 15 (33:57):
Guess what.
Speaker 14 (33:58):
The person followed our order when I hit the streets
and I actually had to point my gun at people.
Speaker 15 (34:04):
Guess what.
Speaker 14 (34:05):
People don't always do what you tell them to do
just because you have a gun pointed at them. If
you play a gun at somebody, you better be prepared
to use it.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
And to your point, for us who are not police officers,
we don't point guns that people to try to get
them to comply with our instructions. If we're at the
point where we're pulling a gun, we have to have
justification for the use of that gun before it comes out.
And unless something changes between the time that we pull
(34:35):
it out, you know, and it's on target, then the
circumstances are still there. When we were fear for our life,
we probably are at the point where we're going.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
To be pulling the trigger.
Speaker 5 (34:45):
Now, Clearly, somebody can turn around and run in that
microsecond or something happens. But yeah, to your point, yeah,
you got to be prepared to use it. You can't
be thinking this is a brandishing or I'm going to
scare somebody away with it.
Speaker 14 (35:00):
And also one other thing is that if you're it's
just one step away from what you're talking about. You've
talked about this many times. I'm so on the same
page as you. Open carry versus concealed carry. Don't telegraph
to people you've got the gun, because you've already escalated
the situation a little bit right off the bat. The
person could potentially justify shooting you, even if you haven't
(35:24):
touched your gun. They could say that you were moving
towards them in an aggressive manner or something like that.
I don't want to hear any arguments about open carry.
If you have the option of not open carrying concealed
carry where you can get to your gun, leave.
Speaker 15 (35:38):
It at that.
Speaker 5 (35:39):
I really I understand what you're saying, and I've kind
of reluctantly, I guess, because I support the idea that
we have the ability the right to open carry. I
just think from a tactical situation, that is your safety.
If you want to think of it that way, it's
just a bad idea. You're giving away an advantage.
Speaker 14 (35:58):
Absolutely, it's the shoot me first policy. Don't do that.
Speaker 5 (36:02):
Yeah, don't don't call attention to yourself because you know,
you may be in a situation where if they don't
know you have a gun, you actually can just slip
out the door and get away somehow. But if they
see that you're carrying a gun, where do you think
their eyes are going to go when the bad guys
show up.
Speaker 14 (36:16):
I was in a Wendy's a while back and a
nice guy with his family is right in front of me.
He had an open carry, had a dog leg on
his leg exposed. I could have blocked his hand, disarmed
him and had his gun in a split second.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
There's that.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
There's there's a video on the internet of a young
guy open carryon and a thug behind him in line
that the like checkout stand just reaches over and grabs
his gun, pulls it out, and now the guy is
begging this bad guy to give him back his gun.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
It's just it's just stupid, beyond belief.
Speaker 5 (36:49):
Yeah, it's like, no, this little bad idea you get,
you essentially gave him your gun by carrying it open
the carry like that. So hey, great call. I appreciate
your call, sir, and thank you for the help. Yeah,
it's the Paul Harvey deal.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
You know. There's the rest of the story.
Speaker 5 (37:03):
So we're getting more on the story out of England,
the guy who got arrested for posting the picture of
the shotgun.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
There was more to it than that. Often there is.
It's like people get outraged, Well this happened right now. Yeah, well,
what's really going on.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
We're seeing that a lot with the people say, well,
this person got arrested an America citizens got arrested by ice.
He going, you know, what was she actually doing? Oh,
she was actually beating on a law enforce officer. She
was blocking them or trying to prevent them from doing
their work, and they just pulled her aside so they could.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Go and do their work. It's truth in advertising or
truth in storytelling. Just a thought.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
Yeah, and Michelle points out, look, your gun is not
to be used as a tool for intimidation. If you
have that idea in your head, let's see, how could
you get that idea out of your head? How could
you get your head right? How could you start thinking
correctly so that you make good decisions. Once again, we
(38:04):
return to this idea of getting training, going to a
class where they teach you this stuff. And look, you
don't have to go to spend two thousand dollars at
gun site. You can go take a concealed carry class
and a lot of these concealed carry classes will give
you good information about what's legal, what's required in your
(38:25):
state for you to be able to justify using deadly force.
Pulling a gun out is using deadly force because you
can definitely be charged with assault with the daily weapon
just for pulling your gun out.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
So you need to understand what the laws are.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
If you if it's been a long time since you've
taken the CONCEALOK class, even though you have your permit,
you might consider going back and doing a refresher take
another concealer care class. If you live in a state
where we say, well, I don't need a permit, I
don't have to take a conceal care class. Cool, but
you know what, you can go take the class and
not get the permit and just take it to Oh,
(38:59):
I don't know, learn things, just I don't know. I
thought for you there the problem is that old thing.
You don't know what you don't know, and if you
haven't had any training, there's a lot you don't know,
and it can really end up biting you.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
You know.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
I like my handguns, but I also like talk about holsters,
and that's what Tom wants to talk about out of Fargo,
North Dakota. Tom, you got handguns but no holsters. Is
that what I'm hearing?
Speaker 15 (39:38):
That's correct, Yes, sir, that you've heard correctly. Yes, And
so I've I've always been wearing a shirt and even
in the summer, I don't care. I just don't wear
a T shirt. I always wear a final shirt. I
wear something over something all the time. So that's why
I was wondering if a shoulder holster versus something else.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
Okay, let me ask when you say you wearing a
sh shirt, are you wearing like a T shirt and
then a shirt over that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Okay, do you wear the shirt tail out?
Speaker 14 (40:10):
No?
Speaker 15 (40:11):
Usually it sucked him.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
Okay, Well, then I don't know how shoulder hoster is
going to help you. I mean, are we talking you're
talking to conceil, I mean, are we talking to castillo carry?
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:25):
Well, how's it going? What's going? To cover up the holster.
Are you you're gonna have to? Are you gonna have to?
Are you gonna are you gonna have to unbutton your shirt?
Speaker 15 (40:38):
You bring up a very good point, sir, gotcha, I
see where this is going.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
All right, here's what I Let me tell you what
I did.
Speaker 5 (40:45):
Okay, just give you my personal take, and you know,
whatever it's worth. I've always been a button up, tucking
your shirt kind of guy, and some years ago I
figured out, you know, particularly this summer, the only way
I'm gonna be able to conceal carry is to have
a shirttail that's out. There are a lot of shirts
you can get with the squared off shirttail that they're
(41:07):
designed to be worn out, and you know, kind of
a I don't know what you call not a Hawaiian shirt,
but sometimes I wear those two. Those work really well
for a regular holster on your belt. The problem with
shoulder holsters is many get into a draw. If they
are the kind that where the gun is held horizontally
underneath your armpit, it's pointing at everyone behind you all
(41:30):
the time. You know, we don't do that. We're not
supposed to point guns that people we're not playing on shooting.
The draw is slow. When you draw it and swing
it around to somebody in front of you, there's a
really good chance you're going to sweep. That is, point
the muzzle at people in on one hundred and eighty
degree arc as it comes out, unless you are really
practiced with it. If you're talking about comfort, let me
(41:55):
give you the key to that, a good quality holster.
Spend money on it and a really good quality belt.
Think forty dollars minimum and probably eighty dollars for a
good gun belt, and it will make an enormous difference
in your comfort level and carrying all the time.
Speaker 15 (42:14):
Good points. Yeah, I wear Hank's belts. I believe it's Hanks.
They're designed for carry I think I think it was Hank's.
But they're a thicker leather belt. I wear them all
the time, and they are designed for carry good.
Speaker 5 (42:27):
Yeah, the thick is good, but they need to be
stiff too, so I mean that's the other thing. But yeah,
I would say get yourself a good outside the waistband holster.
Try carrying with the shirttail out, you know, in experiment
with it to go places where you're comfortable going for
a while and see how that works for you. But
the other part is, and you know, I know it's
not like broken record, but it's the same thing. You
(42:48):
got to go get some training somewhere on drawing from concealment.
How to pull that shirttail up with two hands, yank
it up until it hits your chin, hold it up
there with your left hand, and then draw with your
right hand. That there's a real technique to that, and
once you master it, it works really well. It's pretty
(43:08):
quick and it's safe. If you haven't been trained and
you don't practice it, it's not Not only is it
not fast, it's actually not safe. Once again, we go
back to get the class somewhere. I don't care where
you go. Go somewhere, go to gun site, go to
thunder ends, go to range ranging studios, our place, go someplace,
(43:30):
but train.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Make the commitment.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
It's your life, it's your family's life. I think that's
kind of important. Your actions that you take are going
to determine whether you think that's important. Just to call
for you call me on the forsure right now. I'm
Tom Gresham. This is gun talk.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
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All the best to you and yours from Tom Gresham's
Gun Time.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
All right, welcome back to gun Talk. Tom Gresham here.
Our number is eight sixty six Talk Gun. We hear
a lot of things that are wrong with the government.
The federal government does this and that, and it promotes
gun control. It does all that.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
But wait, something maybe changing.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
Just got word of a Second Amendment research project, if
you will, that's nonpartisan. Joining me right now is our
old friend Ashley Levinski joins just Ashley what's going on
with this the Department of Education spending money for a
nonpartisan Second Amendment effort.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
Yes, so it's really exciting.
Speaker 7 (01:46):
I know it's been a while since we talked, but
one of my projects that I'm working on right now
is that I'm the executive director of the University of
Wyoming College of Laws Farms Research Center. We've been around
for a few years, are still pretty new, but in
honor of the two hundred and fiftieth a grant announcement
(02:06):
went out in the summer of this year looking for
different applications that help educate civics classes, high school, middle
school civics classes around the country on various parts of
the Constitution. So obviously the Farms Research Center doing a
lot of work in the Second Amendment sphere. We decided
to write a grand application and it was accepted.
Speaker 6 (02:28):
So we're pretty excited about that.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
All right, Before we go any further, my map, people
stand Wait a minute, I know that voice. Tell people
who you are with the Cody Museum and all the
TV stuff. You've done everything else.
Speaker 7 (02:39):
Yeah, So I'm Ashley. I'm a firearms historian. Most people
know me for my ten years I spent with the
Cody Firearms Museum, during which I was in charge of
a full remodel of the museum.
Speaker 6 (02:51):
And now I.
Speaker 7 (02:52):
Work as a full time consultant, and so I work
with this research center that I helped to found with
George Moxery, who is a Second Amendment scholar, and I've
got a bunch of museum projects. I'm working on some
gun history projects for companies, and so I've just kind
of been a little bit everywhere in the history and
firearms sphere over the years. But the project that I'm
working on right now at the Farms Research Center is
(03:14):
pretty exciting.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
And of course they know you from television as well.
Speaker 6 (03:18):
Oh yeah, yeah, I guess that too. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (03:21):
I've been on gun stories with Joe Montana for like
a decade.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
I had a.
Speaker 7 (03:25):
Short lived show on the Discovery Channel, and I've done
lots of things over the years. I think most recently,
I was on Fox Nations. Sean Hannity had a history
show called Wanted Dead or Alive, which covered kind of
gangster era crime, you know, John Dillinger, baby Face, Nelson,
Bonnie and Clyde, and I was one of the on
(03:46):
camera experts talking about.
Speaker 6 (03:47):
The firearms of gangsters during the Prohibition era.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
So what's going on with the University of Wyoming in
this project, because I think people don't really know about this.
Speaker 7 (03:55):
Yeah, So the Firearms Research Center, like I said, it's
pretty new. We got started a few years ago and
it's been doing really well. It's still pretty small operation.
It's mostly George and Ile that we are hiring. Especially
from this grant, we're able to hire a full time
research structor, which we're very excited about. But for the
most part, we've been kind of balancing three major pillars
(04:17):
of our scholarship. So obviously academia and trying to get
better firearms history, firearms and law information out into the
world has been very important to us.
Speaker 6 (04:28):
So we've been hosting.
Speaker 7 (04:29):
Conferences, we host a monthly webinar series, We've been publishing
working papers on our website Firearms Research Center dot org,
and so we've been doing a lot with that kind
of part of firearms research. And we've also been doing
a lot with students. So we've sponsored fellowships. My colleague
George Moxrey, who is a professor at the University of Wyoming,
(04:50):
actually teaches a firearms and Second Amendment course.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
In fact, he co wrote the.
Speaker 7 (04:55):
First ever Second Amendment casebook, which is kind of cool.
And then we've all been doing a lot of community
outreach over the years. So one of our big initiatives
is suicide prevention, which is very obviously unfortunately relevant nationally
as well as in the state of Wyoming. So we've
been doing a lot with that, and so when we
saw this opportunity for a grant to help with secondary
(05:18):
school education, we decided to throw our hat in the ring.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
I'm just thinking about what you're doing with university, and
there are people may or may not be aware. There
are other universities around the country. They get funded big
time by people like Michael Bloomberg, and they have Second
Amendment or gun violence efforts, and it is all, I mean,
entirely one hundred percent anti gun. And so this is like,
(05:44):
as far as I can see, the first real effort
to counteract a bit of that.
Speaker 7 (05:49):
Yeah, So when we got the research center started. Part
of the reason that I got involved early on was
because even though it's out of law school, we wanted
it to go beyond just, you know, the study of law.
And since my background is history, George approached me about
being involved because basically, we wanted to make sure that
this was an interdisciplinary study of firearms because there is
(06:10):
so much misinformation about firearms for a range of different backgrounds,
and yes, there tends to be a lot of inaccurate
information that comes out of university systems, and so we
kind of wanted to create basically a center where we
could reach out beyond our silos and work with different universities,
different scholars to try to approach firearms from a holistic,
(06:33):
nonpartisan kind of approach. And we've done I think, I
mean I'm biased, but I think we've done a pretty
good job. I mean, we really do welcome different opinions
on firearms and firearms scholarship. You know, we're open to
having discussions, having you know, civil dialogue with people across
the spectrum of a gun debate, but do so in
(06:53):
a way where it's educational and not for any particular agenda.
And that's been something we've been working really really hard
on over the years, and I think we've had some
pretty good success, you know, despite it being such a
difficult space in order to have these conversations.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
Okay, so with this grant that you're getting, is this
something that individual schools can apply to the university to say, Okay,
we want to do a program in our school, let.
Speaker 7 (07:20):
Me explain exactly what the grant is, what we actually
asked for, and then I can answer that if that's okay,
I'll be quick. The grant that we applied for, we
basically wanted to approach Second Amendment scholarship in the high
school classroom from a couple of different perspectives. So obviously
there's the student perspective, and so part of our grant
is to create these historical instructional videos that can be
(07:43):
used in the classroom on different Second Amendment topics, so
you know, the textual history of the Second Amendment, but
then also the militia in you know, colonial and revolutionary America,
but even moving forward into the National Firearms Act, the
look at kind of the second founding era, which is
around the ratification the Fourteenth Amendment and all these different
(08:04):
times throughout history where we've had, you know, movement and
discussion about the Second Amendment in a various.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
Number of ways.
Speaker 7 (08:11):
So that's kind of the big student component of it.
But then the other part that we really wanted to
focus on was working with teachers because the information out
there on firearms is often, you know, a little skewed,
but it's also not necessarily easy to get the information
if you're trying to kind of look for it. And
(08:32):
so we wanted to create something where teachers could interact
with us and learn more about the Second Amendment and
then also engaged with scholars on the topic on a
range of different topics within the Second Amendment sphere.
Speaker 6 (08:45):
Here's my dogs. So I wanted we.
Speaker 7 (08:47):
Wanted to be able to help teachers find information if
they wanted it. So we're doing several different parts of that.
So one is we're going to do a quarterly webinar
series where we pick topics relevant to this Second Amendment.
We bring in scholars from different perspectives, let them kind
of basically provide their argument. We can do counter arguments,
(09:08):
but then let the.
Speaker 6 (09:08):
Teachers engage with people.
Speaker 7 (09:10):
Because usually when they engage with somebody that you know,
quote unquote knows the topic, they only engage with the
people they agree with, right, And so we wanted to
find a way for them to be able to hear
kind of the whole story, and that way they have
a more nuanced perspective of it when they go and
talk to their students. And then we're also going to
be doing a conference that's in.
Speaker 6 (09:31):
Person where we'll be doing in are two things.
Speaker 7 (09:34):
One obviously Second Amendment history law background, but then also
workshops to teach the teachers, if.
Speaker 6 (09:41):
You will, how to talk about this.
Speaker 7 (09:44):
In the classroom because it's obviously a hotly contested topic.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
It's a political topic, so we.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
Want teachers to be able to feel empowered, to be
able to answer difficult questions or even how to bridge
those conversations in the first place.
Speaker 6 (09:58):
And so it's kind of a too pronged approach to.
Speaker 7 (10:01):
Working and getting better information for the students, but then
also empowering the teachers to know more and feel more
confident to tackle the topic instead of either going off
of misinformation.
Speaker 6 (10:12):
Or just avoiding the subject altogether. And I said I'd
do it quickly, but I lied to you.
Speaker 7 (10:19):
The last component of it is we're working on a
historical law database with links to primary source documents, so
all firearms.
Speaker 6 (10:26):
Loss throughout American history.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
And because of this grant, we're actually able to attach
an AI feature to it, so we'll be giving teachers
that want to participate, which gets to your question, access
to that so that they have a resource for their
students where they can access primary source material, you know,
just to basically, you know, not our opinion on it,
but here's the PDF of the law, you know, so
(10:49):
they have access to that for better scholarship. So it's
kind of a bunch of different things. That's pretty cool.
But I was happy to be able to get both
sides of it, because if teachers don't feel comfortable talking
about it, they won't and that's not helping anybody today, right.
Speaker 5 (11:06):
It's fantastic Ash DeBie, what you're doing and getting nearly
a million dollars from the US Department of Education to
do this and promote true scholarship all the Second Amendment.
Speaker 6 (11:16):
Congratulations, thank you so much.
Speaker 7 (11:19):
And you did mention how people can find us. We
will be posting probably in the next week firem's on
Firearms Research Center dot org. We will have a tab
for the grant with a sign up so we will
be engaging with different associations, teacher associations and groups. But
also if you hear this and your teacher and you
want to know more, you want to be in our
(11:40):
webinars are considered for our conference.
Speaker 6 (11:42):
If you go to our website.
Speaker 7 (11:44):
We will have a tab open where you can sign up,
and then we'll start to send you information as we get.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
Rolling Firearms Research Center dot Org. Thank you so much,
always a pleasure. We'll be right back with more gun talk.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
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Speaker 9 (13:27):
Looking for real talk about guns, gear and the shooting lifestyle,
then tune into gun Talk Nation. Each week, your host,
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(13:48):
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available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 10 (14:00):
Hi, this is David Kodria from The War on Guns.
Notes from the Resistance in the world of changing trends
and instant gratification. I'm want to congratulate Tom Gresham for
thirty consistent and information packed years of gun talk.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
All right, we're with you again. And second here I
will tell you about something's going on in the Department
of Justice about the Second Endment. I get that. Just
a second. Here the first to me talk with Travis
Online three out of Littleton, Colorado. Travis, what's on your mind?
Speaker 8 (14:32):
Sir?
Speaker 11 (14:33):
Hi Tom, Hey, this is totally off topic, off the wall.
It's been a question of mine for a while. I'm
an old guy, and back in the days when I
was a little kid and stealing watermelons from the local
farmers here, these guys were loading shotgun shells with lot salt. Wow,
(14:54):
was that a real thing?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
You know?
Speaker 5 (14:58):
I have heard that say in the old days. It's
funny you mentioned, because I've always heard the exact same thing.
If you're stealing watermelons, allably get shot with rock salt
because they put that in the shotgun shells.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I don't know, I mean, you know what.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
We've heard it enough that even if it was made
up at the beginning, I'm sure someone heard that story
and said, well, I'll try that.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I would hope that people.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Know now that would not be a smart thing to do,
because shooting someone with a shotgun saying well, it's not
lethal load that could end up sending you to prison.
That just would be a terrible, terribly bad idea.
Speaker 11 (15:37):
Yeah, I wasn't planning on doing it, but I thought
i'd ask the question just to see if that was
the real thing.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
You know, I don't have any solid info, but I
you got to think that it had to happen sometime.
Speaker 11 (15:54):
Well, maybe somebody will call in and give us some.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
There you go, we're throwing out there somebody who said, yeah,
I did that. That was easy guy. Thanks for havis.
Appreciate that. All right, this is a fascinating story. There's
a lot of chatter online about the United States Department
of Justice under the US Attorney General Pam Bondy and
of course Donald Trump. Are they program or anti gun?
(16:20):
Are they pro Second Amendment of anti Secondmendment? Well, it
kind of depends on where you fall. I would offer
they are the most pro gun rights, pro Second Amendment
Department of Justice and administration probably in the last fifty years,
maybe one hundred years. But that didn't make them perfect.
(16:44):
The Department of Justice is still defeating the National Firings Act,
the regulation of short bare rifles and machine guns and such.
We would like for them to stop doing that so
we could get the NFA to go away. But having
said that, they've been doing a lot of really, really
good things. Harmeat Dillon is the Assistant US Attorney in
(17:09):
charge of the Civil Rights Division, and she went out
to the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department said, hey, you guys
are taking two years to issue conceal K permits. You
can't do that. We're going to take a look at that.
But it didn't take long for them to come in
there and say we're going to take a hard look
at that with the power of the federal government, with
enforcement power behind them to make things start changing. And
(17:34):
they have notified other sheriff's departments and departments saying you
cannot sit on these you have to issue these permits.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Okay. So here's what just happened.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
A story from writers the News Agency out of England
says the Department of Justice has announced plans to create
the first ever dedicated Second Amendments section within the agency's
Civil Rights Division. Now, they haven't given us a lot
of details on this, and this story just broke a
(18:08):
couple of days ago. If Ham Bondi says the Second
Amendment is not a second class right. After the prior
administration's campaign to infringe on Americans gun rights, the Justice
Department is strongly committed to undoing the damage. This unit
within our Civil Rights Division will advance President Trump's pro
(18:31):
Second Amendment agenda and protect the right to keep and
bear our arms for all.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
What could it do? What could it do a lot?
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Because this is not like the window dressing Biden administration.
They put an Office of Gun Violence in the White House,
but that didn't have any enforcement ability. This is a
part of the Department of Justice and the Civil Rights
(19:05):
Division where they have law enforcement authority. They can go
in and investigate, or seek consent decrees, or do all
sorts of things to use the power of the federal
government to protect and enhance and advance the Second Amendment.
I am encouraged. You know, I don't know, none of
(19:29):
us actually know how this is going to work out.
But the look, the mere fact they have announced the
creation of this special section is incredible. It is amazing,
and it's telling the country, telling the world. This administration
(19:51):
is saying the Second Amendment is important. It's a real right.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
It's not what a phony right.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
It's not a second class, right, and we're going to
protect it and we know what's been done to it
in the past, and we're going to move.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
So that's where we are.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Like I say, this story is about two to three
days old, and as it develops, I'll give you updates
around here.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Okay, fair enough, let's see. Let me grab dude. All right,
we got two minutes for Douglas Line four, Little Rock, Arkansas,
Douglas thirty out six. Talk to me.
Speaker 12 (20:18):
I'll talk quick. You talked about thirty oll six. I
think that the beauty of the thirty out six has
started out with the nineteen oh three service rifle. It
became surplus really after World War Two. I have four
of them, and I have three A threes, two I
inherited through my wife, one I bought myself, and I
(20:39):
have an A four sniper version. And yeah, it'll take
on just about anything you want to take on in
North America. But Lord, have mercy. It do kick a ton.
And I'm not a big guy, but I love them.
I've got enough guns to equip us a platoon at
least Harry can see it. But ok six is just iconic.
(21:02):
I mean, it's like the thirty thirty thirty thirty's bagged
more deer than any other rifle.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
End.
Speaker 12 (21:08):
Yeah, the ALL six is probably taking more moose, bear
and deer than all of them combined.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
So I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
I wouldn't meet at all surprised thirty out six and
you know, yeah, it kicks, But I will tell you
the design of the rifle makes a big difference. And
we've got modern stock designs now that really help take
a lot of the recoil out. And one of the
reasons I think the thirty out six is so popular
is because it's kind of the top end of what
(21:35):
a lot of people can shoot and handle the recoil.
You start getting into three hundred magnums and.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
They really can't.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
It really hurts you. But you can learn to shoot
an AT six. You can master the recoil. And I don't,
of course I shoot a lot. I don't think they're
real bad. The other thing about the AT six, and honestly,
the reason I wanted one and probably make it my
standard hunting rifle is that anywhere you can legally hunt
(22:01):
on this planet, you can find thirty out six.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Ammo. There's AMMO everywhere. Yeah, I mean, you run out.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
Of AMMA, you lose your AMMO whatever it is, You
go into local store, you go to a gas station,
labl of find thirty out six.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Or you could just stop somebody who's driving around and say, hey,
you got your thirty out six AMO. Yeah, we got some.
Back to the house. We can get you.
Speaker 5 (22:21):
Guarantee you you can find out six AMO anywhere. Besides that,
you know what, it just flat works, and so you
can talk about America forty.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Five ACP and thirty out six. I am all in.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
Well, this just happened last week. It was kind of fun.
Somebody said this to me and I didn't know it
was out there Outdoor Life with on their website. Now,
Outdoor Life Magazine just republished my father's article that was
originally published in nineteen sixty four, and it's about my
(22:58):
first deer I shot my first year in nineteen sixty two,
when I was eleven years old, right after right at Thanksgiving.
It's got photos of me and the deer and the
rifle and the whole story about taking the deer. I
was using a semi auto Winchester Model one hundred threeh
eight thirty caliber and I'm thinking about you know, the
(23:22):
three eight to thirty out six are essentially identical. I mean,
the odd six might get you one hundred feet per
second more velocity, but it's inconsequential using the same bullets.
So it's funny that the started with a three O
eight and now I'm going to go to the thirty
out six and still using thirty caliber bullets going about
the same speed.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Just why would I do that?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Well, because they work, and because the thirty out six
is cool, and because it maybe it's going to drive
some of the cool kids crazy, because it's not. It
doesn't have a bunch of letters after the name like
PRC or creed More or whatever, you know, arc all
the cool things are doing now, just it just works.
You pointed at the creditor and you pull the trigger
(24:02):
and it falls down. So so anything I could do
to irritate the cool kids, it's always a fun thing
to do.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
That was never part of the cool kid club. I
can tell you that. Let's see LIGHTE five Allen's in
Fort Smith, Arkansas.
Speaker 13 (24:18):
Hey, Alan, Hey, good afternoon, sir.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
You got some thoughts on this rock saw deal.
Speaker 13 (24:25):
Well, I've actually got a live story about that. Back
in the day one of our neighbors had a farm
with a big rock quarry right off the Arkansas River
with some beautiful bluffs that the neighborhood kids love to
dive off of. But the pool where the quarry got
(24:46):
dangerous because the snakes started moving in.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Oh.
Speaker 13 (24:51):
The farmer told over all the kids they had to
start staying out of it. Of course we didn't do it.
Rettened us with the rock salt. One day, one of
the guys, the trees came right up to the edge
of these buffs. We were up there and one of
the guys came running and took a leap to go
(25:12):
into the water. When the owner unloaded loaded rock salt,
his back and legs all the way down. Yeah where
you could you could hear him scream in the water.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Well did he recover?
Speaker 13 (25:28):
Okay, Oh, he was fine. But there's just that rock
and all that water, rock salt and all that water
like the dickens, I guess. And we pretty much stayed
out there after that.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Well, I think that was this point. Did it work?
So you know, there you go.
Speaker 13 (25:44):
And it just worked and it was a real thing.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Wow, Okay, I guess it was. You got first experience
with it well, thank you for that. I'd always heard
about it, but never talked to anybody who had actually
run into that, so thank you. Basically, what we're talking
about is take a shotgun shell and peel and open
the front of it and pouring the lead pellets out
and then putting rock salt in. Why would you do that, Well,
(26:09):
salt doesn't have anything near the density of lead. It's
a very light weight for mass, and so it's not
going to carry a lot of energies. If you shot
somebody with the theory goes it's relatively close.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Test, it's not super close because it would be very dangerous.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
You could pepper them and just kind of steam without
causing a lot of damage like you would with a
regular shotgun.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Show.
Speaker 5 (26:32):
That was the theory, so evidently it was actually really done.
Let me just put in the warning here.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
That was then.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
This is now different time. We're talking half a century ago.
If you did that today, there's almost no chance you
would not be arrested and taking to jail. You just
this is not a thing you want to do. We're
in a different time. Pointing out of people, or certainly
(27:01):
shooting them with any sort of load is going to
attract the attention of the law enforcement folks. So you
just know it's just a big old no. Don't do
that fair enough. I also got an email from a
guy who has asked me a question about, well, what
if I get these laws and this scenarios?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
What if I'm.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
Walking my dog and somebody points a gun at me
and says he's going to steal my dog? He says,
my dog is like a member of my family. Excuse me,
I get it. Dogs are like a member of my family.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
He says.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
Could I brandish my gun at him to scare them away? Well,
it was an interesting question until we got to that
last part. Brandishing is most places is illegal flashing a
gun to frighten somebody. It's also a really really bad idea. Tactically,
(28:01):
Let's consider the situation you have someone who is pointing
a gun at you to rob you of something, whether
it's your money or your car, your dog. They have
a gun, and now you're going to try to scare
them away by showing your gun. What do you think
(28:26):
their reaction is going to be? Probably the same mine
would be if so one pointed a gun at me,
I'm probably gonna shoot them. If you don't think that's
the logical natural reaction. Point a gun at a police
offer and see if he or she doesn't shoot you,
(28:47):
Almost certainly you're going to have incoming fire. Clint Smith
used to say in his classes, if you want to
scare somebody, get a frightening rubber mask. Your gun is
not for scaring people away. The gun is for firing
bullets and nothing else. It's not for hitting people. People
(29:10):
talking about, oh you a pistol whip, Well I'll smack
them with my gun. Yeah, I know that's stupid. The
gun is a projectorile launcher. That's all it is. It's
primary benefit, if you start thinking about it this way,
it's giving you distance because without a gun to defend yourself,
you have to get in contact distance, right, You got
(29:32):
to get where you can hit somebody or push them,
or use a knife. All of these things put you
within reach of them. That's the whole deal, because if
you can reach them, they can reach you.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
A firearm. The beauty of that when it.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Was invented was it allowed you to project force somewhere
over yonder. You pull the trigger here and something happens
over there. That's the whole idea. When we do our
first person defender shows and we put people into these
scenarios and we watch what they do, It's always amazing
to me when people will give up the benefit of
(30:07):
the firearm. In the scenario, people get attacked and they
have these stimunition guns and they shoot the bad guy
and the bad guy falls down, and then where.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
They do they have used the gun the way it
was supposed to be used.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
They have used it to project force away from them
somewhere over there and deactivated this attacker attacker and then
going to Kojak Rockerd files fill in the blank. Of
any cop show you ever saw, they have to walk
over to the guy who was just trying to kill him,
(30:42):
who's laying on the ground, to kick away the gun
that's on the ground. At which point, if we can,
we like to have our role player who's a bad guy,
grab them by the ankles and take them down to
the ground, or stab him with a fake knife.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Or pull out another gun and shoot him.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
Why would you walk over and stand next to the
guy who was just trying to kill you.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
You need to be moving in the other direction.
Speaker 5 (31:21):
May I suggest that maybe you back up, find some cover,
put something between you and this guy who's laying on
the ground, pull your phone out and call nine to
one one and call it in. If he gets his gun,
he said, well, he's got a gun over there, yep.
But if you get this gun, reaches for it and
(31:43):
tries to shoot you, guess what.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
You still have your gun.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
You can still shoot him, or having deactivated him, you
can turn around and run and go somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
And people say, well, you know you're leaving the sea
of the crime. That's illegal. Baloney.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
Run one hundred yards away, run a city block away,
call the police and said, this is what happened.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
This is where I am.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
When you guys show up, I'll come back, but I'm
not going to stand there where this guy is. You're
not going to get into any trouble. Real simple, okay,
Oh yeah. Line three Todds with this out of Oregon.
Hey Todd, this guy in England with the picture of gun.
What do you think?
Speaker 14 (32:24):
Well, there was a little bit more of the story.
I'm totally on the same page as you. They shouldn't
have come and bothered him. I saw him interviewed on
Fox News. There was more to the story. He posted
video of himself shooting a semi auto in the United States.
He talked about a guy owing him a lot of
money back in Great Britain, and then he'd liked to
(32:45):
use it against him. That guy saw the video, called
the police and said he said, oh. Then they came over,
they talked to him, then they left. Then they came
back the next day, pushed in the door, took all
of his computers, arrested him. But then when it hit
the news how absurd it was, they let him go.
You have to have I'm a retired peace officer, to
(33:06):
make a threat, to charge somebody with a terrorist threat,
you have to have a reasonable expectation that you're going
to be able to carry it out. They'd be like
as stupid as me saying I hate Tom Grisham. You
know what, Tom, I'm going to touch off an intercontinental
blister nuclear tip missile and send.
Speaker 15 (33:24):
It your way.
Speaker 14 (33:25):
You're I'm not going to get charged unless I guess
I live in Great Britain.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
But a little bit yeah, because the shotgun was in England.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I was rather in Florida and the guy was in England.
Speaker 5 (33:37):
So it's kind of impossible to think about who's going
to shoot from Florida, England.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Okay, I see what you're saying. Go ahead, sir.
Speaker 14 (33:44):
And also, once you're talking about being prepared to use
a gun, if you're going to display a firearm. I
remember this from my police academy. Whenever they put a
gun in our hand and we pointed it at somebody.
Speaker 15 (33:57):
Guess what.
Speaker 14 (33:58):
The person followed our order when I hit the streets
and I actually had to point my gun at people.
Speaker 15 (34:04):
Guess what.
Speaker 14 (34:05):
People don't always do what you tell them to do
just because you have a gun pointed at them. If
you play a gun at somebody, you better be prepared
to use it.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
And to your point, for us who are not police officers,
we don't point guns that people to try to get
them to comply with our instructions. If we're at the
point where we're pulling a gun, we have to have
justification for the use of that gun before it comes out.
And unless something changes between the time that we pull
(34:35):
it out, you know, and it's on target, then the
circumstances are still there. When we were fear for our life,
we probably are at the point where we're going.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
To be pulling the trigger.
Speaker 5 (34:45):
Now, Clearly, somebody can turn around and run in that
microsecond or something happens. But yeah, to your point, yeah,
you got to be prepared to use it. You can't
be thinking this is a brandishing or I'm going to
scare somebody away with it.
Speaker 14 (35:00):
And also one other thing is that if you're it's
just one step away from what you're talking about. You've
talked about this many times. I'm so on the same
page as you. Open carry versus concealed carry. Don't telegraph
to people you've got the gun, because you've already escalated
the situation a little bit right off the bat. The
person could potentially justify shooting you, even if you haven't
(35:24):
touched your gun. They could say that you were moving
towards them in an aggressive manner or something like that.
I don't want to hear any arguments about open carry.
If you have the option of not open carrying concealed
carry where you can get to your gun, leave.
Speaker 15 (35:38):
It at that.
Speaker 5 (35:39):
I really I understand what you're saying, and I've kind
of reluctantly, I guess, because I support the idea that
we have the ability the right to open carry. I
just think from a tactical situation, that is your safety.
If you want to think of it that way, it's
just a bad idea. You're giving away an advantage.
Speaker 14 (35:58):
Absolutely, it's the shoot me first policy. Don't do that.
Speaker 5 (36:02):
Yeah, don't don't call attention to yourself because you know,
you may be in a situation where if they don't
know you have a gun, you actually can just slip
out the door and get away somehow. But if they
see that you're carrying a gun, where do you think
their eyes are going to go when the bad guys
show up.
Speaker 14 (36:16):
I was in a Wendy's a while back and a
nice guy with his family is right in front of me.
He had an open carry, had a dog leg on
his leg exposed. I could have blocked his hand, disarmed
him and had his gun in a split second.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
There's that.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
There's there's a video on the internet of a young
guy open carryon and a thug behind him in line
that the like checkout stand just reaches over and grabs
his gun, pulls it out, and now the guy is
begging this bad guy to give him back his gun.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
It's just it's just stupid, beyond belief.
Speaker 5 (36:49):
Yeah, it's like, no, this little bad idea you get,
you essentially gave him your gun by carrying it open
the carry like that. So hey, great call. I appreciate
your call, sir, and thank you for the help. Yeah,
it's the Paul Harvey deal.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
You know. There's the rest of the story.
Speaker 5 (37:03):
So we're getting more on the story out of England,
the guy who got arrested for posting the picture of
the shotgun.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
There was more to it than that. Often there is.
It's like people get outraged, Well this happened right now. Yeah, well,
what's really going on.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
We're seeing that a lot with the people say, well,
this person got arrested an America citizens got arrested by ice.
He going, you know, what was she actually doing? Oh,
she was actually beating on a law enforce officer. She
was blocking them or trying to prevent them from doing
their work, and they just pulled her aside so they could.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Go and do their work. It's truth in advertising or
truth in storytelling. Just a thought.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
Yeah, and Michelle points out, look, your gun is not
to be used as a tool for intimidation. If you
have that idea in your head, let's see, how could
you get that idea out of your head? How could
you get your head right? How could you start thinking
correctly so that you make good decisions. Once again, we
(38:04):
return to this idea of getting training, going to a
class where they teach you this stuff. And look, you
don't have to go to spend two thousand dollars at
gun site. You can go take a concealed carry class
and a lot of these concealed carry classes will give
you good information about what's legal, what's required in your
(38:25):
state for you to be able to justify using deadly force.
Pulling a gun out is using deadly force because you
can definitely be charged with assault with the daily weapon
just for pulling your gun out.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
So you need to understand what the laws are.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
If you if it's been a long time since you've
taken the CONCEALOK class, even though you have your permit,
you might consider going back and doing a refresher take
another concealer care class. If you live in a state
where we say, well, I don't need a permit, I
don't have to take a conceal care class. Cool, but
you know what, you can go take the class and
not get the permit and just take it to Oh,
(38:59):
I don't know, learn things, just I don't know. I
thought for you there the problem is that old thing.
You don't know what you don't know, and if you
haven't had any training, there's a lot you don't know,
and it can really end up biting you.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
You know.
Speaker 5 (39:28):
I like my handguns, but I also like talk about holsters,
and that's what Tom wants to talk about out of Fargo,
North Dakota. Tom, you got handguns but no holsters. Is
that what I'm hearing?
Speaker 15 (39:38):
That's correct, Yes, sir, that you've heard correctly. Yes, And
so I've I've always been wearing a shirt and even
in the summer, I don't care. I just don't wear
a T shirt. I always wear a final shirt. I
wear something over something all the time. So that's why
I was wondering if a shoulder holster versus something else.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
Okay, let me ask when you say you wearing a
sh shirt, are you wearing like a T shirt and
then a shirt over that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Okay, do you wear the shirt tail out?
Speaker 14 (40:10):
No?
Speaker 15 (40:11):
Usually it sucked him.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
Okay, Well, then I don't know how shoulder hoster is
going to help you. I mean, are we talking you're
talking to conceil, I mean, are we talking to castillo carry?
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:25):
Well, how's it going? What's going? To cover up the holster.
Are you you're gonna have to? Are you gonna have to?
Are you gonna are you gonna have to unbutton your shirt?
Speaker 15 (40:38):
You bring up a very good point, sir, gotcha, I
see where this is going.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
All right, here's what I Let me tell you what
I did.
Speaker 5 (40:45):
Okay, just give you my personal take, and you know,
whatever it's worth. I've always been a button up, tucking
your shirt kind of guy, and some years ago I
figured out, you know, particularly this summer, the only way
I'm gonna be able to conceal carry is to have
a shirttail that's out. There are a lot of shirts
you can get with the squared off shirttail that they're
(41:07):
designed to be worn out, and you know, kind of
a I don't know what you call not a Hawaiian shirt,
but sometimes I wear those two. Those work really well
for a regular holster on your belt. The problem with
shoulder holsters is many get into a draw. If they
are the kind that where the gun is held horizontally
underneath your armpit, it's pointing at everyone behind you all
(41:30):
the time. You know, we don't do that. We're not
supposed to point guns that people we're not playing on shooting.
The draw is slow. When you draw it and swing
it around to somebody in front of you, there's a
really good chance you're going to sweep. That is, point
the muzzle at people in on one hundred and eighty
degree arc as it comes out, unless you are really
practiced with it. If you're talking about comfort, let me
(41:55):
give you the key to that, a good quality holster.
Spend money on it and a really good quality belt.
Think forty dollars minimum and probably eighty dollars for a
good gun belt, and it will make an enormous difference
in your comfort level and carrying all the time.
Speaker 15 (42:14):
Good points. Yeah, I wear Hank's belts. I believe it's Hanks.
They're designed for carry I think I think it was Hank's.
But they're a thicker leather belt. I wear them all
the time, and they are designed for carry good.
Speaker 5 (42:27):
Yeah, the thick is good, but they need to be
stiff too, so I mean that's the other thing. But yeah,
I would say get yourself a good outside the waistband holster.
Try carrying with the shirttail out, you know, in experiment
with it to go places where you're comfortable going for
a while and see how that works for you. But
the other part is, and you know, I know it's
not like broken record, but it's the same thing. You
(42:48):
got to go get some training somewhere on drawing from concealment.
How to pull that shirttail up with two hands, yank
it up until it hits your chin, hold it up
there with your left hand, and then draw with your
right hand. That there's a real technique to that, and
once you master it, it works really well. It's pretty
(43:08):
quick and it's safe. If you haven't been trained and
you don't practice it, it's not Not only is it
not fast, it's actually not safe. Once again, we go
back to get the class somewhere. I don't care where
you go. Go somewhere, go to gun site, go to
thunder ends, go to range ranging studios, our place, go someplace,
(43:30):
but train.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Make the commitment.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
It's your life, it's your family's life. I think that's
kind of important. Your actions that you take are going
to determine whether you think that's important. Just to call
for you call me on the forsure right now. I'm
Tom Gresham. This is gun talk.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Go have yourself a great week.
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