December 14, 2025 • 43 mins
In This Hour:
-- Gun rights cases are winning in the courts, but will the U.S. Supreme Court confirm those wins? Kostas Moros, from the Second Amendment Foundation handicaps the odds.
-- Teaching a police officer to shoot, and wondering why the academy didn't do it right.
-- In a mass murder attack, if you had an opportunity to shoot the killers, should you do it?
Gun Talk 12.14.25 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- Gun rights cases are winning in the courts, but will the U.S. Supreme Court confirm those wins? Kostas Moros, from the Second Amendment Foundation handicaps the odds.
-- Teaching a police officer to shoot, and wondering why the academy didn't do it right.
-- In a mass murder attack, if you had an opportunity to shoot the killers, should you do it?
Gun Talk 12.14.25 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 3 (00:29):
There are so many things going on in the courts.
We talk about Congress and there are things going on
there as well. But you know, we've got at least
a couple of cases that the Supreme Court has taken
second mimic cases, but there's a whole lot more than
that going on. And who better to bring us up
to speed on that than coastis Moros from the Second
Amendment Foundation at Coasts. I know that you're tracking who
(00:50):
knows dozens of cases right now, but if we were
going to pick maybe two three of them that are happening,
and things are happening right now, I'd love to straw
off with this Coon's case because that's very interesting.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, Tom, thanks for having me on. Coons is a
very important case. It's the New Jersey basically pan on
concealed carry even with a permit, because they've restricted it
in every place. And we got this pretty bad Third
Circuit rolling a couple months back, which although it struck
down the Vampire rule, which as your listeners may recall,
is the idea that all private property is off limits
(01:24):
unless the owner posts a sign inviting them in. They
did strike down that, so it wasn't all bad, but
they basically upheld everything else, you know, bars, playgrounds, restaurants
that serve alcohol, parks, all that sort of stuff, libraries.
So the Third Circuit now, which has become a sort
of anti night circuit, has now granted en bank to Koons,
(01:46):
which is terrific news. They're going to be hearing it
again on February eleventh, and we expect they will reverse
at least a lot of the Panels rolling, if not
all of it.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
So that's a very hopeful sign.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
If they do, would you exp I mean, then this
would be a very good thing. But would you expect
at that point for it to be appeal to the
Supreme Court.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
That's going to be a million dollar question, because New
Jersey's probably very frustrated right now because they're the only
hardcore anti gun state that's been a relatively pro gun circuit.
Because California gets the ninth, New York gets the second,
which always rule in their favor. So now the third
circuits creating was called circuit splits if they do rule
as we expect, which makes Supreme Court review more likely.
(02:30):
So I imagine Attorney General Plackin in New Jersey is
going to be getting frantic calls from California and New
York telling begging him not to appeal because given that
there is yeah, given that there is this circuit sploit,
now it would make the Supreme Court granting him more likely,
which would reverse New York and California's loss.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
To There's some really interesting strategy and chess moves.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
Going on here, Yes, correct, correct.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Okay, So we got the House case and then we've
got what's going on with the reciprocity.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Okay, So there's a couple cases pending on the issue
of reciprocity right now. One of them is in Massachusetts
that was involved in New Hampshire resident who is carrying
in Massachusetts. But we also have a case called Gardener v. Maryland,
and that one is interesting because miss Gardner is a
(03:23):
Virginia resident or was at the time, with a Virginia
carry permit. And what happened was she got ran off
the road while she was driving through I think it
was Maryland. It was Maryland, and so she defended herself.
She didn't fire again, but she displayed her gun, dissuaded
the person, and then the police came and they didn't
charge her with any crimes except carrying without a Maryland permit,
(03:46):
and she has a Virginia permit. So she is a
pro say plaintiff who petitioned all the way to the
Supreme Court. And usually when you're pro se, which means
you represent yourself, that's hopeless. You know, this report doesn't
generally anthus petitions, but somebody on the court requested a response.
That means at least one justice wants to hear what
Maryland does to say. So that prompted us to file
(04:09):
an amicust brief, which we filed yesterday. You can go
read it read it online. And we're hopeful that the
Supreme Court is serious about this because it would be
great if we got reciprocity at least at least if
other states have to honor permits at nothing else.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
What's that all lines that someone who represents themself as
a fool for a client.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah exactly, but hey, maybe she's the smart one's got
She got all the way up to.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
The string cord. They requested a response, so's good for her.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Well exactly. That is highly unlikely in and of itself,
and so that could be very interesting. And I think
the point we ought to make here is that a
lot of people have said, well, you know, we have
these reciprocity laws that keep getting introduced or bills and
keep you introduced and get pass in the House, and
we'll just get the Congress to pass that. And I
(04:57):
just think that that's a losing proposition.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Yeah, and it's because of the filibuster unfortunately. So it
might get through the House, but unless you're going to
get about seven or eight Democrats on your side, which
you're not, then the filibuster makes it impossible in the Senate.
I get, I admit I get a little frustrated when
our side kind of hypes this up, like they'll say, oh,
the House is voting on us and policy. Oh yeah,
(05:21):
but it doesn't really matter. I mean, I guess it does.
It's good that they have the vote so we know
where our representatives stand. Don't get me wrong, They should
try for it, but I don't like getting people's hopes
up for no reason. However, if the Supreme Court were
to grant review, that's very different. There's no filibuster there,
you know. So we would very much.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Like to see the Supreme Court take up this issue.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
What's going on at the Supreme Court because for a
long time they just avoided and wouldn't take any second
in the cases, and now they've accepted at least two
for the next session.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Yeah, so they granted at our urging and at the
urging of the Trump Department of Justice. Actually, they grant Wolford,
which is a sensitive places case on that vampire rule
I mentioned earlier, because the Ninth Circuit out the vampire rules,
even the Third Circuit panel didn't do. So the Supreme
Court is going to be reviewing that. And they also
granted review to a case called Hamani, which is a
(06:15):
criminal case concerning it concerns marijuana using guns, but not
just marijuanas. We're a little frustrated. That was the one
they chose to decide that issue because Amani has all
sorts of other more sordid facts. He's not just a
guy who smoked some weed and had a gun, you know.
So we'll have to see how that shakes out. But
today at their conference, actually as we speak, they are
(06:37):
considering a variety of cases, including Duncan, which is the
magazine case in California. For that my old colleagues at
Michell and Associates, I've brought gators guns, a couple of
SBR cases, and a variety of other cases. It's a
big second Amendment at the Supreme Court. We'll see if
they grant anything or if they just keep relisting them
(06:57):
to if they haven't decided yet what to do. So
we're all waiting.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
To hear conferences when they all get together and talk
about it, and then I guess on Monday we find out,
you know what decisions, if any, have been made, whether
they're going to take it, not take it, or just
relisted and keep talking kicking it down the road. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
I mean, actually the last couple of weeks we've been
hearing about the grants on Fridays, like even though typically
the normal practices they have the conference on Thursday or Friday,
and then they tell us on Monday if there's any news.
But last week we found out, for example, about the
birthright citizenship case on Friday, right after the conference. So
I'm going to keep refreshing the page this afternoon they
see if we get any news, but usually it is
(07:37):
the Monday after Yeah, I suspect, if I to speculate,
and this is pure speculation, I have no special knowledge.
I think they're waiting for the Third and Seventh Circuit rulings,
so I wouldn't be surprised to see them just keep
holding the hardware cases until they have those rulings, so
then they can decide which of all the cases they
want to take up to decide these issues.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
At least that's my hope.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah, let me ask you something else. So we're hearing
a lot of noise and I call it that specifically,
choosing that word in the Second Amendment world, and some
of the groups are saying, oh, the Department's Justice. You know,
we couldn't trust them. We knew we couldn't trust Pambondi.
They're not doing what we want. They're not going to
negate the NFA, And yet we see Hami Dillon doing
(08:23):
amazing things and supporting gun rights to the second A memo.
What is your take and where we are as of
this moment in the Department of Justice.
Speaker 5 (08:34):
Well, we're in a very good place.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
And I get a little frustrated at some of the
Junes saying by some look, we disagree with them on
the NFA. That's why the Second Amendment Foundation and other
ords besides ours have suited them. We don't agree with
their defense of the NFA for sure. However, compared to
any other administration in modern history, this has been a
very favorable environment for us. They follow the Meekest briefs
(08:58):
in the Seventh and Third Circuits in support of our
challenge to the assault weapons vans. They've sued Los Angeles
over wait times. That's another stack case we had to
deal with before they did. You know, they're doing a
massive rights restoration. You have heart Meat Dylan out there
talking about reciprocity. You know, I hope they in fact,
I hope they found the meekestproof and Gardner for that matter.
So they are doing a lot of pro Second Amendment
(09:20):
stuff that I would remind people that, yes, generally the
federal government will generally defend federal laws.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
That's just the way it is.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
In fact, it was a pleasant surprise that they came
out and said in the Peterson case that, you know,
although we think the NFA is constitutional, suppressors do get
some degree of Second Amendment protection. And while I think
a lot of people in Red states might see them say, well,
so what, that's a witshy watching thing to say, that's
actually really helpful for those of us in California and
similar states where suppressors are totally banned. It doesn't matter
(09:52):
if we wanted to NFA register them. California says you
can't have them at all, even if you're willing to
register them. So that's where that kind of thing is helped.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
You know.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Sometimes I feel like people in the Red states that
generally have a good kind of forget are struggle right right,
Enna is an academic dispute for those of us in Telford,
because you.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Can't you can't have anywhere. We are skipping over what
may be the most important and interesting and fascinating and
startling development, and that is in the Department of Justice,
under the Civil Rights Division, they have established a Second
Amendment Section.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yes, and a lot of people are very angry about this,
which is kind of funny. But yes, on the anti
gun side, I mean, but yeah, we have. We received
the news that they are taking up the Second Amendment
in a more serious way by making it an office
within the Civil Rights Division, And that's that's fitting because
the Second Amendment is, besides the First Amendment, our oldest,
(10:50):
most fundamental civil right.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
So it's kind of crazy that it.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Took until you know, our two hundred and fiftieth birthday
as a nation to actually to how this be a
focus to be fair and reconstruction. The Freedmen's Bureau did
make protecting the rights of bear arms and priority, but
besides that, it's kind of just been something the government
hasn't been involved with. And I was amused to see
some of the reaction from the anti gun side saying, oh, no,
(11:16):
how dare they do this? You know, it just reveals
that they don't they don't want the Second Amendment to
be a right.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
They're upset that it is.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
And I would position it and say, look, this is
a major commitment from the Trump administration to support gun rise,
to support the Second Amendment, and to put some real
muscle because Unlike this phony office that Biden had for
gun control in the White House, this is actually a
part of the Department of Justice. They have law enforcement capability.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Yes, yeah, they've already even before the office was established,
they started taking action. Like I mentioned the lawsuit against
Los Angeles for the long two year wait times for
CCW permit. So I think this just formalizes that and
it makes it more likely we're going to see more
things like that. So we're very hopeful and we hope
they continue doing that good work, even as like I said,
(12:09):
we might disagree with them on some things like the NFA.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
You bet, coaches Morros, thank you so much. I appreciate
what you do and what you're doing at the Secondment Foundation,
keeping us posted. It's a fascinating time. And the changes
in the news, it just is hitting. Like every week
there's something going on. Yeah, it's am.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
It's great to be on.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Thank you for having me, and happy to be on
again when another time things happened.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
We'll get you there. We appreciate that, sir. All right,
don't go far. We'll be right back with more gun talk.
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(13:30):
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Speaker 3 (14:39):
Hi, I'm Kim Roady from California.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Welcome back to guntalk, the place where we celebrate all
things shooting, hunting and the Second Amendment.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Okay, giving you real time updates here, just seeing that
from this mess murder event in Australia, Bondy Beach. The
death told us now up to sixteen forty people in
the hospital. This was a mass murder. They wanted it
to be as many as they could. They killed men,
(15:12):
women and children. It's not a terrorist attack and look
let's stop men's words. Let's not pretend it's not. This
is an attack on Jews. This is part of the worldwide,
globalized the Antifada thing, and it's happening all over the world,
and it's happening in the United States. And if you're
(15:34):
not aware of it, thinking about it, preparing for it,
I'm sorry, what are you doing? I mean, you got
to be crazy, That mean, you got to be paranoid.
But it's just one of those other risks that are
out there. In this case, unfortunately, they're in Australia where
(15:55):
nobody's caring a gun because can't. And the good guy
who grabbed the murderer spreading around took his gun from him,
didn't know how to work the gun. If the murderer
had had a second gun, he could have shot this
good guy and killed him on the spot. You need
to know how to work a lot of different guns.
(16:17):
I also think personally me my choice. Look, your choice
is your choice, and it's just as legitimate as my choice.
You can think I'm wrong, I can think you're wrong,
but that really doesn't change anything. My choice is to
depend upon the mercy of someone who is without mercy,
(16:38):
is to not depend upon somebody not shooting me when
they showed up to shoot me, when they show up
to murder as many people as possible. And my plan
that day is geeh, I sure hope that doesn't happen.
That's not much of a plan. I've readily admit. I
don't think about stuff the way a lot of people do.
(17:01):
I am a get it done guy, get up early,
get going, move, take care of it. There's an issue,
let's just deal with that. There's another issue, let's deal
with that. I'm not at what you would call a
control freak, but I try to be realistic and say, Okay,
there really are people who would like to kill you
(17:24):
or me, or your children or your grandchildren. There are
people who would like to cut their heads off and
put that video on the internet. Oh I don't want
to think about that? Well who does? Who does want
to think about that? But what does not thinking about it?
How does that improve the situation? How does that improve
(17:46):
your situation? I don't know, not making sense to me.
Fred Line three, Rhode Island, Rhode Island.
Speaker 10 (17:56):
Huh Fred, Yeah, yeah, A good accido, Tom, Yeah, there's
been a kind of a sad day around here. Is
to you know, current events is what took place, yes,
to deal with at Brown University, but you know, I
think being here in Rhode Island, you know, I remember
what was going on all last summer with the pro
Palestinian anti Semitic situation that was going on a lot
(18:16):
of the Ivy League school campuses, Brown being one of them,
and it was happening here too, And I think this
has this definitely has an impact as to what actually
led up to and developed as to what took place.
I mean, I'm just speculating because they're still trying to
saw through the through the chat they get they get
to the wheat as to what actually happened over there.
(18:37):
But I think that that has an impact. I think
that definitely has has an impact. Looking remembering what happened
last summer at Brown University campus and what happened now.
So the people who were basically supporting these students with
the not openly but behind the scenes, you know, supporting
the the Palestine pro Palestinian movement and not coming down
(18:58):
on the students harsh and let them get away with
basically murder. But you're pretty close to it.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Well, it got to it, It gets to Eventually that
is the end of the string that they're pulling. And
to your point, the forces that are doing this are
larger people and organizations and states from overseas. They're foreign countries.
They're funding this, they're driving it, and you just cannot
(19:28):
even pretend that that's not true. We know it's true.
Anybody who has a modicum of honesty about it, knows
anything about it, knows that these events, these riots, protests,
whatever you want to call them, are funded and orchestrated,
and the social media aspect of it is run from overseas.
(19:48):
It just is. And for those who don't know it.
Thanks for I appreciate the call. Brown University they have
stituting on campus. And no, didn't use a so assault weapon,
used a handgun, because of course handguns are used in
the majority of murders that are done with guns. Just handguns.
(20:09):
Oh what did it happen? Oh yeah, a gun free zone. Well,
gun free for you and me, good guys. It's gun
free for good guys, not gun free for bad guys.
They get to disobey the law because they can, because
they will, because that's what they do, that's who they are.
(20:30):
So if it's not gun free forever you want. It's
only gun free for the bad guys. Right, hold on
here a second, got turned my computer screen back on,
timed out. I want to do this, let's grab We've
got time. Yeah, we do real quickly. Joe in New Jersey, Joe,
(20:51):
I got just a venit or so go for it.
Speaker 11 (20:55):
Tom My grandson went through the police academy for six
months from January and join the local police department in July.
Qualified twice for the clock, first to Gen four and
then again with a Gen five with a red dot.
And he wanted to get a little small carry gun,
so I took him to the range of my P
three sixty five. We put two mags in started fifteen
yards and the first ten shots for all, every single
(21:17):
one two to six inches left to the scent line.
And I'm looking at him, and he's right handed, but
he's got his instead of an Isosceles or weaver, he's
got his right foot forward. And with your right foot forward,
of course, your torso is twisted to the left, and
then your so your head is looking one way and
your torso's pointing the other way. And I said, hey,
(21:38):
do me favor, pull your right foot back and just
watch what happened. Of course, when he does that, you
shoulder comes back and run. Now, his right arm is
perfectly aligned with his right eye.
Speaker 12 (21:49):
Right.
Speaker 11 (21:49):
Every single every single shot goes dead on the sindline.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I said that in the academy.
Speaker 11 (21:55):
Huh, Well, I said, how often did you shoot an academy?
He said two or three times a month? So I said,
so you shot eighteen to twenty times and they never
told you that your stance was wrong.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
He said, no, Yeah, I mean there it is. It's
a great points we think of the police are the experts,
and the politicians will tell you listen to the police,
they're the experts. Well maybe not. I'm glad you were
able to get him up the speed with that. Yeah,
stant this important issue, more important to know the fundamental
(22:26):
Let's talk about that when we come back.
Speaker 13 (22:34):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I got an email from a listener. He got one
of the three twenty seven Federal revolvers, the little Ruger
ELCR loaded up with the three three seven Federal the
magnum Ammo shot it. He goes, Wow, those are full
power loads. Yes they are. They look skinny, but they're
like the equivalent of a three fifty seven magnum. It's
(22:56):
a lot of recoil, Yes they are. But here's the
wonderful thing about the three twenty seven Federal. You can
shoot five different rounds of AMMO in them. You can
shoot the three twenty seven magnum Federal Magnum alstin, you
can shoot the thirty two S and W, the thirty
two S and W long, the thirty two h and R,
(23:16):
and you could shoot the semi rimed thirty two ACP
in that as well. Everything from powder puff loads that
have no recoil to the course of suit the real
magnum ones the sweet spot. A lot of people are
figuring out there's the thirty two h and R loads,
and there are some really good self defense loads. There
a good bit less recoil, and there are some good
(23:38):
self defense loads with good bullets. So if you're carrying
I want to carry a three twenty seven Federal revolver,
take a look at the thirty two h and R loads.
I think that's a really good compromise. Fair enough. Oh yeah,
by the way, I grabbed one of those this week,
stuck into my coat pocket because I realized that my
carry pistol was like three layers down behind layers of
(24:01):
sweater and vest and coat, and am I going to
get that out? So you slip the revolver into my
coat pocket. I can shoot it right through the coat pocket.
Don't even have to pull it out. It need be
so food for thought for your winter carry. That's about
line one. Vince's with us out of Oklahoma with a
range report.
Speaker 14 (24:17):
Hey, Vince, Hattie, Tom got a range report for you
with the GT. Thirty picked one up back in July.
Took it out a few times, and I took it
to our men's range range day for the cookout. That
was a hit out there. People enjoyed shooting it. But
I decided that I was going to use it for
hunting season for whitetail this year.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Okay, did you get the three to eight version?
Speaker 14 (24:39):
Yes, sir, I got the three to eight Okay, three
load for it, but I'm using the one hundred and
fifty grain Federal fusion.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Nice. That's a good load, that's a good bullet.
Speaker 14 (24:51):
It's a good all around bullet. I think I managed
to get out the first weekend a rifle. I had
already taken my two bucks with archery ear in October,
but I had my son out in the stand with me,
and he shot a really nice Oklahoma nine point with
that rifle.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Oh okay, how'd it do?
Speaker 5 (25:11):
It?
Speaker 12 (25:12):
Did really well?
Speaker 14 (25:13):
He can you know. It's light enough that he could
handle it. He held the rifle himself. We were just
up in the stand. We didn't have it a tripod
or anything. Deer came in at forty five yards and
he put one through both lungs and the deer held
out forty yards and piled up.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
How old is your son?
Speaker 14 (25:30):
He is ten years old?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Oh? Was that his first?
Speaker 14 (25:34):
He got a spike last year and this will be
his second.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Dear, excellent, good deal. So all right, you've shot it, now,
you've got other people shoot it. Your son killed a
deer with it. What is your take now after having
this kind of experience with the Gt. Thirty rifle?
Speaker 14 (25:51):
Now, hold on, I'm not done with the experience. I
man get out on the second weekend of rifle because
I still have a bunch of dough tags, and I
my daughter out there, not to hunt, but just so
she could sit there in the stand with me. And
I had two dos come in front of me, and
I shot one of those and she dropped immediately and
her friend ran off, but then we waited in the
(26:14):
stand and she came sneaking back through the woods and
I shot her too.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
So you're stacking them up with that rifle.
Speaker 14 (26:22):
I got three so far this year, may may have more.
We have a we have a late season antler list
season here in Oklahoma, and I can go get two
more and soaking the boy if we if we can
find them.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Well, it sounds like you're pretty happy with this rig.
Speaker 14 (26:38):
It's working out pretty good. I like the Ruger Americans.
I like the I like what they've done with the
Gen two. They fixed a few of the little folleyballs
that they had with the Gen one. But it's a
real nice rifle. Even with the suppressor on it. It's
short enough that it's it can easily be handled.
Speaker 12 (26:56):
It's not super heavy.
Speaker 14 (26:59):
I've number of loptics on it to play with it.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
It's all right. So you're you're shooting with a suppression
that where the did you use the suppressor when you're hanging?
Speaker 12 (27:09):
Yes? I did? Oh okay, yhm.
Speaker 14 (27:12):
R two.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
And that rifle, you're right, that rifle of having a
sixteen inches barrel putting in suppressure on it doesn't make
it too long. You can still shoot it out of
a blind and handle it there.
Speaker 14 (27:23):
We've had it in the blind before, we moving it around,
and it's it's not you know, it is a little
bit long with the suppressor, but it's not drastically long.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
No, exactly right. Well, that's a great range of for it,
Thank you, sir. I'm glad that it's working for you.
All right, let me go grab Bob and Colorado Peppo Colorado. Hey, Bob,
you got a good question here, so just go ahead
and throw it at me.
Speaker 13 (27:49):
Well, right now, I'm a member of Rocky Mountain Gun
Owners and their president is the same president as National
Association for Gun Rights. Yeah, Dudley Brown. Now, every day
I get solicitations from Rocky Mountain Gun Owners for membership renewal,
(28:15):
but I haven't seen where they have really done much
last year. And then I started getting a couple solicitations
from the National Association for Gun Rights, and I emailed
both of them asking what they plan to do next year,
(28:40):
and I haven't even received replies as to that. And
with what's going on with our legislator here in Colorado,
this is getting really ridiculous and somebody needs to act
and do some thing.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
All right, So let me see, are you asking me
at this point my opinion of that group.
Speaker 13 (29:08):
That or how I should evaluate or if there are
other groups I should maybe look at. Are my primary
target is more of the state of Colorado than nationally,
just because they're pressing so hard against the Second Amendment.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Right now, I understand exactly what you're saying. I don't
like to say things negative about gun rights groups, but
I'm just going to be real straight with you here.
Those two groups to be towards the bottom up a
list of groups that I would spend money on for
(29:52):
any number of reasons. We don't need to go into
all of those, but National Association for Gun Rights and
the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners would be at or near
the very bottom of my list, I think, and look,
they're a little I get the sense they are a
little bit better than they used to be. But that's
(30:14):
not saying a whole lot, because I think there are
some really better ones. I have a tendency, and this
is just the way I approach things and how it
hits me. I have a tendency to be skeptical of
those who say we're the only no compromise group, we're
the only true believers that if you're not a true
(30:36):
believer like we are, then you're part of the enemy.
I mean, those groups will anybody who disagrees with them
or is not one hundred percent they're only ninety percent
with them, then they're the enemy and they seek to
destroy them. And I've just seen this over and over again.
And it's not just those two groups. There are other
one other particular national group that keep saying we're the
(30:56):
only no compromise groups say, well, you know what, no
compromise usually gets you all a loss. So it's just
the practical side of me where I am willing to
take any type of a win and come back and
get more later, as opposed to turning down a partial
win and saying, you know, aren't we pure. I will
tell you I think most of that is pure fundraising
(31:18):
effort because we look tough. We're gonna fight for you.
Always hear this, We're fighting for you. Yeah, yeah, no,
actually you're fundraising. So I would say listen to your instincts.
If you're thinking there's something here that's not quite what
you think it should be, I would do a little
bit more looking around and see if there's not another
(31:39):
group in Colorado that can help you out. But on
nationals front, I mean, I do like the Second Amendment Foundation.
I've been involved with them for many, many years. I
think they do good work. Farmer's Policy coalitions doing good
work too, They often team up. Well, look, let me
ask you a question. Are you a member of the NRA. No, Well,
(32:06):
it's still the biggest, it's still the most influential. It's
the only group as people in Congress who are talking
to Congress. I would offer that for most of the
people who got out and understandably so when Wayne was
destroying the group, it's time to get back in. And
I would say, if you're looking for a home, honestly,
(32:29):
Second Man Foundation NRA would be the two places that
my money personally goes to. That's where I go. I
would just offer that you might want to take a
look at those as viable alternatives. Does that make.
Speaker 13 (32:41):
Sense, Yeah, it does. Would either one of those tend
to target Colorado specifically, not all the time right.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Actually, NRA would probably be better because they're going to
have regional reps who work at the legislature there, and
you can check with RA and say Okay, who's your
regional person who covers Colorado. How do I contact that
person and how do I get involved and be a
part of that. That would probably be my take. But look,
(33:19):
here's the deal. We're going to do this. We're going
seek help. People often tell me I need to seek help.
Let's look for some suggestions. Some of the listeners out
there are going to say, well, this is a group
in Colorado you ought to be involved with, or there's
another group you ought to be concerned with, or they
may completely disagree with me, And look, I appreciate the call.
(33:40):
I got to keep scooting here. And if you disagree
with me on my take on any of these groups,
call me and let me know. This is not like
totally right or wrong. This is just my impression on things,
having watched this for a lot of years, so it's
just kind of where I am this stuff. I'm looking here. Yeah,
(34:04):
I know Jim sending me all sorts of links to
National Association for Gun Rights and Rocky Mountain. Yeah, I
get it. Been following them for a long time and
kind of know the players. That's why I say in
the list of hierarchy, those would not be towards the
(34:25):
top again and you may disagree, and if you do,
please give me a colleagde six to six talk gun
or Tom talk gun. Let me know why you think that.
Here's the thought for you. You know, we got what
we can have to Christmas not a long time, a
lot of time. And you may be thinking, well, it's
too late to order something for Christmas. No it's not.
(34:49):
I'm gonna do the whole Joe Biden thing. I'll whisper
at you. No it's not, because you know why, you
can go to your local gun store and they have
stuff on the shelves that you can buy and don't
have to order and don't have to worry about when
is it going to get delivered? If you go to
your local gun store, you know what you also get
when you go there, and it really is the thing
(35:11):
that is so much fun is you get to walk
up and down the aisles and discover things things that
you're going, what is that? And you pick it up,
you look at it and go, that looks cool. I
didn't even know that thing was a thing up you know,
you know it follows right for that right, Well, I
(35:32):
think I gotta have that. And you had to throw
it in the basket and then you walk down the
aisle and go, huh forty one magnum, Huh had buddy
forty one Magnamama. In a while, pick a grab a
box or electronic shooting muffs. Yeah, mine are getting pretty
rady and old in the ear muffs or the seals
(35:55):
or you know. For another fifty bucks, buy another set
while you're at it, by two sets of electronic ear muffs,
one for you and one for the person you shoot with,
whether it's your wife, your husband, or your buddy, your kids, whatever.
It really makes shooting so much more pleasant, and I
would offer very possibly it helps make shooting safer. Well,
(36:20):
how could shooting muffs make them safer? Not just for
protecting your hearing? Because you can hear other people, You
can see or see, You can hear what's going on
around you. You can be aware of range commands. You
know what else you can hear, and if you're an instructor,
you know exactly what I'm talking about here. You could
(36:40):
hear somebody working a slide behind you who shouldn't be
handling a gun back behind the line, and you can
turn around and say stop that. You can hear what's
going on because it amplifies the sound, but yet it
cuts out gun noise. Cool. So I'm just telling you,
in the what roughly ten days I haven't added up
(37:05):
between now and Christmas, get to your local gun store.
They need the business. They would appreciate the business. You're
doing them a good thing. You're making sure your gun
store stays in business. And at the same time you
can discover some really cool stuff. So just food for
thought for you there. What else if you're thinking, Okay,
(37:26):
I want to add some things to my Christmas list,
what would you add to it? Right now? From the
gun side, of course, the shooting side, I would love
to get that. Take eighty six to six, talk gun.
I ran into something. How much time we got here, Jim?
Before I get into the story? Okay, this is perfect.
I ran into something recently. Language is important. We cannot
(37:48):
give up the language. We cannot give up the anti
gunners use these words, and they say a saw weapon,
and we're stupid if we keep repeating that. But when
we have a perfectly good word and we think it
might offend somebody to use that word, what are we
doing to give it up? Recently, we were into two
instances of people in our industry. I'm not going to
(38:09):
tell you who because I don't want to embarrass him,
because we're going to work on him, basically saying they
won't use the word shooter anymore. They won't use the
word shooter. You know, in competition we say shooter. Ready, Yeah,
I'm not gonna do that because in the media they
(38:29):
talk about he was a shooter, he was a mass shooter,
he was a shooter. I'm sorry. If you shoot, you're
a shooter. If we are doing long range shooting, we're shooters.
If we're doing pistol shooting, we're shooters. It's a perfectly
good word. And for us to voluntarily acquiesce to this
and say, you know, oh, that's a terrible word. Shooter
(38:51):
connotes crime, shooter connotes evil. No shooter connotes sending range
bullets down range, and we do that in a safe
manner more than a million times every single day. I
will not give up this word. I'm a shooter. You're
a shooter, and that's the perfect good word. To give
(39:13):
it up is the height of folly. They'll just find
the next thing to try to get you to deck
withs on As we keep getting news about the mess
murder in Australia at Bondi Beach. Now they're saying the
two shooters. There may have been three, but right now
(39:34):
they're saying two. They're saying they were a father and son.
Father fifty years old. He was shot and killed by
the police. The son is in critical condition. He's twenty four.
It's critical but stable condition. Interesting twist. We'll find out
more about that as it goes along. Line too deals
with us out of Denver, Colorado. Hey Billy, you're on
gun Talk. How can we help you?
Speaker 12 (39:55):
Happy? All these song?
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Thank you? Thank you?
Speaker 12 (39:58):
Yeah calling? What's your commis? Last week about the Department
of Justice and the Civil Rights Division. I have filed
several cases with him about gun laws in my blue
state that I feel are against by civil rights, constitutional rights,
or just plainly illegal. I think we need to take
advantage of this time when the wines that are back
and give the Department of Justice attorneys as much fodder
(40:20):
as as possible to prosecute these cases. And I'm not
an attorney. What I do is I try and find
the applicable law and taste that into the web page
and describe how I feel that it violates one of
those three things. So I would encourage everyone to do
that and let's flood these people and give something to
work with.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
I'm curious, do you think they are unaware of what's
going on?
Speaker 12 (40:46):
Well, there's a lot of state laws, in the municipal
laws that they may not be aware of or may
not be a high priority.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Okay, So give me just one example of what you're
talking about.
Speaker 12 (40:57):
And am I saying it's illegal to own a night
or fifteen? So I went into the municipal code and
copied that line, put that into the website. And it's
really eaty to do. Whether they take action or not,
that's up to them. But I'm just trying to get
something to work with.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Okay. I mean, it's not doing any harm. I'm also
fairly sure it's not doing a whole lot of good
because they are quite aware that Colorado does not let
you have an AR fifteen and they definitely taking action
on that. And we're pursuing those cases up to and
trying to get that case even right now accepted by
(41:36):
the Supreme Court, get them the grants certain on it.
So they're certainly aware of that. As I say, I
don't think it hurts, but I'm not sure how much
it helps. But look, I appreciate you being involved in
looking up stuff, and you know who knows one of
those deals of if it doesn't hurt, then it probably
does help. I appreciate that. The main thing is, I
(41:57):
will say this for Bill, he has made it to
be involved. A lot of people sit on the sidelines
and say, boy, I wish they would do something. It
used to be well the NR should do that. Now
it's you know, GA should do that. SAF should do that,
those other groups should do that. There's not they, There's
(42:17):
only us. There's you and me. And you know what
that really means. Honestly, it's just you and for me
it's just me. Because I can't do anything for you.
I can't make you do anything. I can't have somebody
else do that. I would offer that it's irresponsible and
(42:39):
lazy to expect somebody else to do my work for me.
This is my job. It's my job to be an activist,
to speak up, to show up, to write a check,
to make a donation, to volunteer for a local candidate,
(43:00):
to go door to door, to put up signs to
get the right people elected. At the local level, at
the state level. There's nobody else's job to do that.
It's my job, and it's your job. It's the individual's job.
So it is the height of laziness, isn't it. I mean,
wouldn't you agree with me to say they should do
(43:22):
that some other they You say, why I don't have
the ability to We all have the ability to do something,
whatever that is, write a check, show up, volunteer work
the phones, do something, but that whole day should do something. Yeah,
it bothers me. You can tell. It's one of my
pet peece And really it's up to me, me to
(43:45):
get off my rear ends. You know that also means
up to you to get off your end. We'll be
right back with more gun talks.
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Speaker 3 (00:29):
There are so many things going on in the courts.
We talk about Congress and there are things going on
there as well. But you know, we've got at least
a couple of cases that the Supreme Court has taken
second mimic cases, but there's a whole lot more than
that going on. And who better to bring us up
to speed on that than coastis Moros from the Second
Amendment Foundation at Coasts. I know that you're tracking who
(00:50):
knows dozens of cases right now, but if we were
going to pick maybe two three of them that are happening,
and things are happening right now, I'd love to straw
off with this Coon's case because that's very interesting.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, Tom, thanks for having me on. Coons is a
very important case. It's the New Jersey basically pan on
concealed carry even with a permit, because they've restricted it
in every place. And we got this pretty bad Third
Circuit rolling a couple months back, which although it struck
down the Vampire rule, which as your listeners may recall,
is the idea that all private property is off limits
(01:24):
unless the owner posts a sign inviting them in. They
did strike down that, so it wasn't all bad, but
they basically upheld everything else, you know, bars, playgrounds, restaurants
that serve alcohol, parks, all that sort of stuff, libraries.
So the Third Circuit now, which has become a sort
of anti night circuit, has now granted en bank to Koons,
(01:46):
which is terrific news. They're going to be hearing it
again on February eleventh, and we expect they will reverse
at least a lot of the Panels rolling, if not
all of it.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
So that's a very hopeful sign.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
If they do, would you exp I mean, then this
would be a very good thing. But would you expect
at that point for it to be appeal to the
Supreme Court.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
That's going to be a million dollar question, because New
Jersey's probably very frustrated right now because they're the only
hardcore anti gun state that's been a relatively pro gun circuit.
Because California gets the ninth, New York gets the second,
which always rule in their favor. So now the third
circuits creating was called circuit splits if they do rule
as we expect, which makes Supreme Court review more likely.
(02:30):
So I imagine Attorney General Plackin in New Jersey is
going to be getting frantic calls from California and New
York telling begging him not to appeal because given that
there is yeah, given that there is this circuit sploit,
now it would make the Supreme Court granting him more likely,
which would reverse New York and California's loss.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
To There's some really interesting strategy and chess moves.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
Going on here, Yes, correct, correct.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Okay, So we got the House case and then we've
got what's going on with the reciprocity.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Okay, So there's a couple cases pending on the issue
of reciprocity right now. One of them is in Massachusetts
that was involved in New Hampshire resident who is carrying
in Massachusetts. But we also have a case called Gardener v. Maryland,
and that one is interesting because miss Gardner is a
(03:23):
Virginia resident or was at the time, with a Virginia
carry permit. And what happened was she got ran off
the road while she was driving through I think it
was Maryland. It was Maryland, and so she defended herself.
She didn't fire again, but she displayed her gun, dissuaded
the person, and then the police came and they didn't
charge her with any crimes except carrying without a Maryland permit,
(03:46):
and she has a Virginia permit. So she is a
pro say plaintiff who petitioned all the way to the
Supreme Court. And usually when you're pro se, which means
you represent yourself, that's hopeless. You know, this report doesn't
generally anthus petitions, but somebody on the court requested a response.
That means at least one justice wants to hear what
Maryland does to say. So that prompted us to file
(04:09):
an amicust brief, which we filed yesterday. You can go
read it read it online. And we're hopeful that the
Supreme Court is serious about this because it would be
great if we got reciprocity at least at least if
other states have to honor permits at nothing else.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
What's that all lines that someone who represents themself as
a fool for a client.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah exactly, but hey, maybe she's the smart one's got
She got all the way up to.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
The string cord. They requested a response, so's good for her.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Well exactly. That is highly unlikely in and of itself,
and so that could be very interesting. And I think
the point we ought to make here is that a
lot of people have said, well, you know, we have
these reciprocity laws that keep getting introduced or bills and
keep you introduced and get pass in the House, and
we'll just get the Congress to pass that. And I
(04:57):
just think that that's a losing proposition.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Yeah, and it's because of the filibuster unfortunately. So it
might get through the House, but unless you're going to
get about seven or eight Democrats on your side, which
you're not, then the filibuster makes it impossible in the Senate.
I get, I admit I get a little frustrated when
our side kind of hypes this up, like they'll say, oh,
the House is voting on us and policy. Oh yeah,
(05:21):
but it doesn't really matter. I mean, I guess it does.
It's good that they have the vote so we know
where our representatives stand. Don't get me wrong, They should
try for it, but I don't like getting people's hopes
up for no reason. However, if the Supreme Court were
to grant review, that's very different. There's no filibuster there,
you know. So we would very much.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Like to see the Supreme Court take up this issue.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
What's going on at the Supreme Court because for a
long time they just avoided and wouldn't take any second
in the cases, and now they've accepted at least two
for the next session.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Yeah, so they granted at our urging and at the
urging of the Trump Department of Justice. Actually, they grant Wolford,
which is a sensitive places case on that vampire rule
I mentioned earlier, because the Ninth Circuit out the vampire rules,
even the Third Circuit panel didn't do. So the Supreme
Court is going to be reviewing that. And they also
granted review to a case called Hamani, which is a
(06:15):
criminal case concerning it concerns marijuana using guns, but not
just marijuanas. We're a little frustrated. That was the one
they chose to decide that issue because Amani has all
sorts of other more sordid facts. He's not just a
guy who smoked some weed and had a gun, you know.
So we'll have to see how that shakes out. But
today at their conference, actually as we speak, they are
(06:37):
considering a variety of cases, including Duncan, which is the
magazine case in California. For that my old colleagues at
Michell and Associates, I've brought gators guns, a couple of
SBR cases, and a variety of other cases. It's a
big second Amendment at the Supreme Court. We'll see if
they grant anything or if they just keep relisting them
(06:57):
to if they haven't decided yet what to do. So
we're all waiting.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
To hear conferences when they all get together and talk
about it, and then I guess on Monday we find out,
you know what decisions, if any, have been made, whether
they're going to take it, not take it, or just
relisted and keep talking kicking it down the road. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
I mean, actually the last couple of weeks we've been
hearing about the grants on Fridays, like even though typically
the normal practices they have the conference on Thursday or Friday,
and then they tell us on Monday if there's any news.
But last week we found out, for example, about the
birthright citizenship case on Friday, right after the conference. So
I'm going to keep refreshing the page this afternoon they
see if we get any news, but usually it is
(07:37):
the Monday after Yeah, I suspect, if I to speculate,
and this is pure speculation, I have no special knowledge.
I think they're waiting for the Third and Seventh Circuit rulings,
so I wouldn't be surprised to see them just keep
holding the hardware cases until they have those rulings, so
then they can decide which of all the cases they
want to take up to decide these issues.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
At least that's my hope.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah, let me ask you something else. So we're hearing
a lot of noise and I call it that specifically,
choosing that word in the Second Amendment world, and some
of the groups are saying, oh, the Department's Justice. You know,
we couldn't trust them. We knew we couldn't trust Pambondi.
They're not doing what we want. They're not going to
negate the NFA, And yet we see Hami Dillon doing
(08:23):
amazing things and supporting gun rights to the second A memo.
What is your take and where we are as of
this moment in the Department of Justice.
Speaker 5 (08:34):
Well, we're in a very good place.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
And I get a little frustrated at some of the
Junes saying by some look, we disagree with them on
the NFA. That's why the Second Amendment Foundation and other
ords besides ours have suited them. We don't agree with
their defense of the NFA for sure. However, compared to
any other administration in modern history, this has been a
very favorable environment for us. They follow the Meekest briefs
(08:58):
in the Seventh and Third Circuits in support of our
challenge to the assault weapons vans. They've sued Los Angeles
over wait times. That's another stack case we had to
deal with before they did. You know, they're doing a
massive rights restoration. You have heart Meat Dylan out there
talking about reciprocity. You know, I hope they in fact,
I hope they found the meekestproof and Gardner for that matter.
So they are doing a lot of pro Second Amendment
(09:20):
stuff that I would remind people that, yes, generally the
federal government will generally defend federal laws.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
That's just the way it is.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
In fact, it was a pleasant surprise that they came
out and said in the Peterson case that, you know,
although we think the NFA is constitutional, suppressors do get
some degree of Second Amendment protection. And while I think
a lot of people in Red states might see them say, well,
so what, that's a witshy watching thing to say, that's
actually really helpful for those of us in California and
similar states where suppressors are totally banned. It doesn't matter
(09:52):
if we wanted to NFA register them. California says you
can't have them at all, even if you're willing to
register them. So that's where that kind of thing is helped.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
You know.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Sometimes I feel like people in the Red states that
generally have a good kind of forget are struggle right right,
Enna is an academic dispute for those of us in Telford,
because you.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Can't you can't have anywhere. We are skipping over what
may be the most important and interesting and fascinating and
startling development, and that is in the Department of Justice,
under the Civil Rights Division, they have established a Second
Amendment Section.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yes, and a lot of people are very angry about this,
which is kind of funny. But yes, on the anti
gun side, I mean, but yeah, we have. We received
the news that they are taking up the Second Amendment
in a more serious way by making it an office
within the Civil Rights Division, And that's that's fitting because
the Second Amendment is, besides the First Amendment, our oldest,
(10:50):
most fundamental civil right.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
So it's kind of crazy that it.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Took until you know, our two hundred and fiftieth birthday
as a nation to actually to how this be a
focus to be fair and reconstruction. The Freedmen's Bureau did
make protecting the rights of bear arms and priority, but
besides that, it's kind of just been something the government
hasn't been involved with. And I was amused to see
some of the reaction from the anti gun side saying, oh, no,
(11:16):
how dare they do this? You know, it just reveals
that they don't they don't want the Second Amendment to
be a right.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
They're upset that it is.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
And I would position it and say, look, this is
a major commitment from the Trump administration to support gun rise,
to support the Second Amendment, and to put some real
muscle because Unlike this phony office that Biden had for
gun control in the White House, this is actually a
part of the Department of Justice. They have law enforcement capability.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Yes, yeah, they've already even before the office was established,
they started taking action. Like I mentioned the lawsuit against
Los Angeles for the long two year wait times for
CCW permit. So I think this just formalizes that and
it makes it more likely we're going to see more
things like that. So we're very hopeful and we hope
they continue doing that good work, even as like I said,
(12:09):
we might disagree with them on some things like the NFA.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
You bet, coaches Morros, thank you so much. I appreciate
what you do and what you're doing at the Secondment Foundation,
keeping us posted. It's a fascinating time. And the changes
in the news, it just is hitting. Like every week
there's something going on. Yeah, it's am.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
It's great to be on.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Thank you for having me, and happy to be on
again when another time things happened.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
We'll get you there. We appreciate that, sir. All right,
don't go far. We'll be right back with more gun talk.
Speaker 6 (12:36):
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Speaker 7 (13:09):
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(13:30):
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Speaker 3 (14:39):
Hi, I'm Kim Roady from California.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Welcome back to guntalk, the place where we celebrate all
things shooting, hunting and the Second Amendment.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Okay, giving you real time updates here, just seeing that
from this mess murder event in Australia, Bondy Beach. The
death told us now up to sixteen forty people in
the hospital. This was a mass murder. They wanted it
to be as many as they could. They killed men,
(15:12):
women and children. It's not a terrorist attack and look
let's stop men's words. Let's not pretend it's not. This
is an attack on Jews. This is part of the worldwide,
globalized the Antifada thing, and it's happening all over the world,
and it's happening in the United States. And if you're
(15:34):
not aware of it, thinking about it, preparing for it,
I'm sorry, what are you doing? I mean, you got
to be crazy, That mean, you got to be paranoid.
But it's just one of those other risks that are
out there. In this case, unfortunately, they're in Australia where
(15:55):
nobody's caring a gun because can't. And the good guy
who grabbed the murderer spreading around took his gun from him,
didn't know how to work the gun. If the murderer
had had a second gun, he could have shot this
good guy and killed him on the spot. You need
to know how to work a lot of different guns.
(16:17):
I also think personally me my choice. Look, your choice
is your choice, and it's just as legitimate as my choice.
You can think I'm wrong, I can think you're wrong,
but that really doesn't change anything. My choice is to
depend upon the mercy of someone who is without mercy,
(16:38):
is to not depend upon somebody not shooting me when
they showed up to shoot me, when they show up
to murder as many people as possible. And my plan
that day is geeh, I sure hope that doesn't happen.
That's not much of a plan. I've readily admit. I
don't think about stuff the way a lot of people do.
(17:01):
I am a get it done guy, get up early,
get going, move, take care of it. There's an issue,
let's just deal with that. There's another issue, let's deal
with that. I'm not at what you would call a
control freak, but I try to be realistic and say, Okay,
there really are people who would like to kill you
(17:24):
or me, or your children or your grandchildren. There are
people who would like to cut their heads off and
put that video on the internet. Oh I don't want
to think about that? Well who does? Who does want
to think about that? But what does not thinking about it?
How does that improve the situation? How does that improve
(17:46):
your situation? I don't know, not making sense to me.
Fred Line three, Rhode Island, Rhode Island.
Speaker 10 (17:56):
Huh Fred, Yeah, yeah, A good accido, Tom, Yeah, there's
been a kind of a sad day around here. Is
to you know, current events is what took place, yes,
to deal with at Brown University, but you know, I
think being here in Rhode Island, you know, I remember
what was going on all last summer with the pro
Palestinian anti Semitic situation that was going on a lot
(18:16):
of the Ivy League school campuses, Brown being one of them,
and it was happening here too, And I think this
has this definitely has an impact as to what actually
led up to and developed as to what took place.
I mean, I'm just speculating because they're still trying to
saw through the through the chat they get they get
to the wheat as to what actually happened over there.
(18:37):
But I think that that has an impact. I think
that definitely has has an impact. Looking remembering what happened
last summer at Brown University campus and what happened now.
So the people who were basically supporting these students with
the not openly but behind the scenes, you know, supporting
the the Palestine pro Palestinian movement and not coming down
(18:58):
on the students harsh and let them get away with
basically murder. But you're pretty close to it.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Well, it got to it, It gets to Eventually that
is the end of the string that they're pulling. And
to your point, the forces that are doing this are
larger people and organizations and states from overseas. They're foreign countries.
They're funding this, they're driving it, and you just cannot
(19:28):
even pretend that that's not true. We know it's true.
Anybody who has a modicum of honesty about it, knows
anything about it, knows that these events, these riots, protests,
whatever you want to call them, are funded and orchestrated,
and the social media aspect of it is run from overseas.
(19:48):
It just is. And for those who don't know it.
Thanks for I appreciate the call. Brown University they have
stituting on campus. And no, didn't use a so assault weapon,
used a handgun, because of course handguns are used in
the majority of murders that are done with guns. Just handguns.
(20:09):
Oh what did it happen? Oh yeah, a gun free zone. Well,
gun free for you and me, good guys. It's gun
free for good guys, not gun free for bad guys.
They get to disobey the law because they can, because
they will, because that's what they do, that's who they are.
(20:30):
So if it's not gun free forever you want. It's
only gun free for the bad guys. Right, hold on
here a second, got turned my computer screen back on,
timed out. I want to do this, let's grab We've
got time. Yeah, we do real quickly. Joe in New Jersey, Joe,
(20:51):
I got just a venit or so go for it.
Speaker 11 (20:55):
Tom My grandson went through the police academy for six
months from January and join the local police department in July.
Qualified twice for the clock, first to Gen four and
then again with a Gen five with a red dot.
And he wanted to get a little small carry gun,
so I took him to the range of my P
three sixty five. We put two mags in started fifteen
yards and the first ten shots for all, every single
(21:17):
one two to six inches left to the scent line.
And I'm looking at him, and he's right handed, but
he's got his instead of an Isosceles or weaver, he's
got his right foot forward. And with your right foot forward,
of course, your torso is twisted to the left, and
then your so your head is looking one way and
your torso's pointing the other way. And I said, hey,
(21:38):
do me favor, pull your right foot back and just
watch what happened. Of course, when he does that, you
shoulder comes back and run. Now, his right arm is
perfectly aligned with his right eye.
Speaker 12 (21:49):
Right.
Speaker 11 (21:49):
Every single every single shot goes dead on the sindline.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I said that in the academy.
Speaker 11 (21:55):
Huh, Well, I said, how often did you shoot an academy?
He said two or three times a month? So I said,
so you shot eighteen to twenty times and they never
told you that your stance was wrong.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
He said, no, Yeah, I mean there it is. It's
a great points we think of the police are the experts,
and the politicians will tell you listen to the police,
they're the experts. Well maybe not. I'm glad you were
able to get him up the speed with that. Yeah,
stant this important issue, more important to know the fundamental
(22:26):
Let's talk about that when we come back.
Speaker 13 (22:34):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I got an email from a listener. He got one
of the three twenty seven Federal revolvers, the little Ruger
ELCR loaded up with the three three seven Federal the
magnum Ammo shot it. He goes, Wow, those are full
power loads. Yes they are. They look skinny, but they're
like the equivalent of a three fifty seven magnum. It's
(22:56):
a lot of recoil, Yes they are. But here's the
wonderful thing about the three twenty seven Federal. You can
shoot five different rounds of AMMO in them. You can
shoot the three twenty seven magnum Federal Magnum alstin, you
can shoot the thirty two S and W, the thirty
two S and W long, the thirty two h and R,
(23:16):
and you could shoot the semi rimed thirty two ACP
in that as well. Everything from powder puff loads that
have no recoil to the course of suit the real
magnum ones the sweet spot. A lot of people are
figuring out there's the thirty two h and R loads,
and there are some really good self defense loads. There
a good bit less recoil, and there are some good
(23:38):
self defense loads with good bullets. So if you're carrying
I want to carry a three twenty seven Federal revolver,
take a look at the thirty two h and R loads.
I think that's a really good compromise. Fair enough. Oh yeah,
by the way, I grabbed one of those this week,
stuck into my coat pocket because I realized that my
carry pistol was like three layers down behind layers of
(24:01):
sweater and vest and coat, and am I going to
get that out? So you slip the revolver into my
coat pocket. I can shoot it right through the coat pocket.
Don't even have to pull it out. It need be
so food for thought for your winter carry. That's about
line one. Vince's with us out of Oklahoma with a
range report.
Speaker 14 (24:17):
Hey, Vince, Hattie, Tom got a range report for you
with the GT. Thirty picked one up back in July.
Took it out a few times, and I took it
to our men's range range day for the cookout. That
was a hit out there. People enjoyed shooting it. But
I decided that I was going to use it for
hunting season for whitetail this year.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Okay, did you get the three to eight version?
Speaker 14 (24:39):
Yes, sir, I got the three to eight Okay, three
load for it, but I'm using the one hundred and
fifty grain Federal fusion.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Nice. That's a good load, that's a good bullet.
Speaker 14 (24:51):
It's a good all around bullet. I think I managed
to get out the first weekend a rifle. I had
already taken my two bucks with archery ear in October,
but I had my son out in the stand with me,
and he shot a really nice Oklahoma nine point with
that rifle.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Oh okay, how'd it do?
Speaker 5 (25:11):
It?
Speaker 12 (25:12):
Did really well?
Speaker 14 (25:13):
He can you know. It's light enough that he could
handle it. He held the rifle himself. We were just
up in the stand. We didn't have it a tripod
or anything. Deer came in at forty five yards and
he put one through both lungs and the deer held
out forty yards and piled up.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
How old is your son?
Speaker 14 (25:30):
He is ten years old?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Oh? Was that his first?
Speaker 14 (25:34):
He got a spike last year and this will be
his second.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Dear, excellent, good deal. So all right, you've shot it, now,
you've got other people shoot it. Your son killed a
deer with it. What is your take now after having
this kind of experience with the Gt. Thirty rifle?
Speaker 14 (25:51):
Now, hold on, I'm not done with the experience. I
man get out on the second weekend of rifle because
I still have a bunch of dough tags, and I
my daughter out there, not to hunt, but just so
she could sit there in the stand with me. And
I had two dos come in front of me, and
I shot one of those and she dropped immediately and
her friend ran off, but then we waited in the
(26:14):
stand and she came sneaking back through the woods and
I shot her too.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
So you're stacking them up with that rifle.
Speaker 14 (26:22):
I got three so far this year, may may have more.
We have a we have a late season antler list
season here in Oklahoma, and I can go get two
more and soaking the boy if we if we can
find them.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Well, it sounds like you're pretty happy with this rig.
Speaker 14 (26:38):
It's working out pretty good. I like the Ruger Americans.
I like the I like what they've done with the
Gen two. They fixed a few of the little folleyballs
that they had with the Gen one. But it's a
real nice rifle. Even with the suppressor on it. It's
short enough that it's it can easily be handled.
Speaker 12 (26:56):
It's not super heavy.
Speaker 14 (26:59):
I've number of loptics on it to play with it.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
It's all right. So you're you're shooting with a suppression
that where the did you use the suppressor when you're hanging?
Speaker 12 (27:09):
Yes? I did? Oh okay, yhm.
Speaker 14 (27:12):
R two.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
And that rifle, you're right, that rifle of having a
sixteen inches barrel putting in suppressure on it doesn't make
it too long. You can still shoot it out of
a blind and handle it there.
Speaker 14 (27:23):
We've had it in the blind before, we moving it around,
and it's it's not you know, it is a little
bit long with the suppressor, but it's not drastically long.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
No, exactly right. Well, that's a great range of for it,
Thank you, sir. I'm glad that it's working for you.
All right, let me go grab Bob and Colorado Peppo Colorado. Hey, Bob,
you got a good question here, so just go ahead
and throw it at me.
Speaker 13 (27:49):
Well, right now, I'm a member of Rocky Mountain Gun
Owners and their president is the same president as National
Association for Gun Rights. Yeah, Dudley Brown. Now, every day
I get solicitations from Rocky Mountain Gun Owners for membership renewal,
(28:15):
but I haven't seen where they have really done much
last year. And then I started getting a couple solicitations
from the National Association for Gun Rights, and I emailed
both of them asking what they plan to do next year,
(28:40):
and I haven't even received replies as to that. And
with what's going on with our legislator here in Colorado,
this is getting really ridiculous and somebody needs to act
and do some thing.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
All right, So let me see, are you asking me
at this point my opinion of that group.
Speaker 13 (29:08):
That or how I should evaluate or if there are
other groups I should maybe look at. Are my primary
target is more of the state of Colorado than nationally,
just because they're pressing so hard against the Second Amendment.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Right now, I understand exactly what you're saying. I don't
like to say things negative about gun rights groups, but
I'm just going to be real straight with you here.
Those two groups to be towards the bottom up a
list of groups that I would spend money on for
(29:52):
any number of reasons. We don't need to go into
all of those, but National Association for Gun Rights and
the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners would be at or near
the very bottom of my list, I think, and look,
they're a little I get the sense they are a
little bit better than they used to be. But that's
(30:14):
not saying a whole lot, because I think there are
some really better ones. I have a tendency, and this
is just the way I approach things and how it
hits me. I have a tendency to be skeptical of
those who say we're the only no compromise group, we're
the only true believers that if you're not a true
(30:36):
believer like we are, then you're part of the enemy.
I mean, those groups will anybody who disagrees with them
or is not one hundred percent they're only ninety percent
with them, then they're the enemy and they seek to
destroy them. And I've just seen this over and over again.
And it's not just those two groups. There are other
one other particular national group that keep saying we're the
(30:56):
only no compromise groups say, well, you know what, no
compromise usually gets you all a loss. So it's just
the practical side of me where I am willing to
take any type of a win and come back and
get more later, as opposed to turning down a partial
win and saying, you know, aren't we pure. I will
tell you I think most of that is pure fundraising
(31:18):
effort because we look tough. We're gonna fight for you.
Always hear this, We're fighting for you. Yeah, yeah, no,
actually you're fundraising. So I would say listen to your instincts.
If you're thinking there's something here that's not quite what
you think it should be, I would do a little
bit more looking around and see if there's not another
(31:39):
group in Colorado that can help you out. But on
nationals front, I mean, I do like the Second Amendment Foundation.
I've been involved with them for many, many years. I
think they do good work. Farmer's Policy coalitions doing good
work too, They often team up. Well, look, let me
ask you a question. Are you a member of the NRA. No, Well,
(32:06):
it's still the biggest, it's still the most influential. It's
the only group as people in Congress who are talking
to Congress. I would offer that for most of the
people who got out and understandably so when Wayne was
destroying the group, it's time to get back in. And
I would say, if you're looking for a home, honestly,
(32:29):
Second Man Foundation NRA would be the two places that
my money personally goes to. That's where I go. I
would just offer that you might want to take a
look at those as viable alternatives. Does that make.
Speaker 13 (32:41):
Sense, Yeah, it does. Would either one of those tend
to target Colorado specifically, not all the time right.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Actually, NRA would probably be better because they're going to
have regional reps who work at the legislature there, and
you can check with RA and say Okay, who's your
regional person who covers Colorado. How do I contact that
person and how do I get involved and be a
part of that. That would probably be my take. But look,
(33:19):
here's the deal. We're going to do this. We're going
seek help. People often tell me I need to seek help.
Let's look for some suggestions. Some of the listeners out
there are going to say, well, this is a group
in Colorado you ought to be involved with, or there's
another group you ought to be concerned with, or they
may completely disagree with me, And look, I appreciate the call.
(33:40):
I got to keep scooting here. And if you disagree
with me on my take on any of these groups,
call me and let me know. This is not like
totally right or wrong. This is just my impression on things,
having watched this for a lot of years, so it's
just kind of where I am this stuff. I'm looking here. Yeah,
(34:04):
I know Jim sending me all sorts of links to
National Association for Gun Rights and Rocky Mountain. Yeah, I
get it. Been following them for a long time and
kind of know the players. That's why I say in
the list of hierarchy, those would not be towards the
(34:25):
top again and you may disagree, and if you do,
please give me a colleagde six to six talk gun
or Tom talk gun. Let me know why you think that.
Here's the thought for you. You know, we got what
we can have to Christmas not a long time, a
lot of time. And you may be thinking, well, it's
too late to order something for Christmas. No it's not.
(34:49):
I'm gonna do the whole Joe Biden thing. I'll whisper
at you. No it's not, because you know why, you
can go to your local gun store and they have
stuff on the shelves that you can buy and don't
have to order and don't have to worry about when
is it going to get delivered? If you go to
your local gun store, you know what you also get
when you go there, and it really is the thing
(35:11):
that is so much fun is you get to walk
up and down the aisles and discover things things that
you're going, what is that? And you pick it up,
you look at it and go, that looks cool. I
didn't even know that thing was a thing up you know,
you know it follows right for that right, Well, I
(35:32):
think I gotta have that. And you had to throw
it in the basket and then you walk down the
aisle and go, huh forty one magnum, Huh had buddy
forty one Magnamama. In a while, pick a grab a
box or electronic shooting muffs. Yeah, mine are getting pretty
rady and old in the ear muffs or the seals
(35:55):
or you know. For another fifty bucks, buy another set
while you're at it, by two sets of electronic ear muffs,
one for you and one for the person you shoot with,
whether it's your wife, your husband, or your buddy, your kids, whatever.
It really makes shooting so much more pleasant, and I
would offer very possibly it helps make shooting safer. Well,
(36:20):
how could shooting muffs make them safer? Not just for
protecting your hearing? Because you can hear other people, You
can see or see, You can hear what's going on
around you. You can be aware of range commands. You
know what else you can hear, and if you're an instructor,
you know exactly what I'm talking about here. You could
(36:40):
hear somebody working a slide behind you who shouldn't be
handling a gun back behind the line, and you can
turn around and say stop that. You can hear what's
going on because it amplifies the sound, but yet it
cuts out gun noise. Cool. So I'm just telling you,
in the what roughly ten days I haven't added up
(37:05):
between now and Christmas, get to your local gun store.
They need the business. They would appreciate the business. You're
doing them a good thing. You're making sure your gun
store stays in business. And at the same time you
can discover some really cool stuff. So just food for
thought for you there. What else if you're thinking, Okay,
(37:26):
I want to add some things to my Christmas list,
what would you add to it? Right now? From the
gun side, of course, the shooting side, I would love
to get that. Take eighty six to six, talk gun.
I ran into something. How much time we got here, Jim?
Before I get into the story? Okay, this is perfect.
I ran into something recently. Language is important. We cannot
(37:48):
give up the language. We cannot give up the anti
gunners use these words, and they say a saw weapon,
and we're stupid if we keep repeating that. But when
we have a perfectly good word and we think it
might offend somebody to use that word, what are we
doing to give it up? Recently, we were into two
instances of people in our industry. I'm not going to
(38:09):
tell you who because I don't want to embarrass him,
because we're going to work on him, basically saying they
won't use the word shooter anymore. They won't use the
word shooter. You know, in competition we say shooter. Ready, Yeah,
I'm not gonna do that because in the media they
(38:29):
talk about he was a shooter, he was a mass shooter,
he was a shooter. I'm sorry. If you shoot, you're
a shooter. If we are doing long range shooting, we're shooters.
If we're doing pistol shooting, we're shooters. It's a perfectly
good word. And for us to voluntarily acquiesce to this
and say, you know, oh, that's a terrible word. Shooter
(38:51):
connotes crime, shooter connotes evil. No shooter connotes sending range
bullets down range, and we do that in a safe
manner more than a million times every single day. I
will not give up this word. I'm a shooter. You're
a shooter, and that's the perfect good word. To give
(39:13):
it up is the height of folly. They'll just find
the next thing to try to get you to deck
withs on As we keep getting news about the mess
murder in Australia at Bondi Beach. Now they're saying the
two shooters. There may have been three, but right now
(39:34):
they're saying two. They're saying they were a father and son.
Father fifty years old. He was shot and killed by
the police. The son is in critical condition. He's twenty four.
It's critical but stable condition. Interesting twist. We'll find out
more about that as it goes along. Line too deals
with us out of Denver, Colorado. Hey Billy, you're on
gun Talk. How can we help you?
Speaker 12 (39:55):
Happy? All these song?
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Thank you? Thank you?
Speaker 12 (39:58):
Yeah calling? What's your commis? Last week about the Department
of Justice and the Civil Rights Division. I have filed
several cases with him about gun laws in my blue
state that I feel are against by civil rights, constitutional rights,
or just plainly illegal. I think we need to take
advantage of this time when the wines that are back
and give the Department of Justice attorneys as much fodder
(40:20):
as as possible to prosecute these cases. And I'm not
an attorney. What I do is I try and find
the applicable law and taste that into the web page
and describe how I feel that it violates one of
those three things. So I would encourage everyone to do
that and let's flood these people and give something to
work with.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
I'm curious, do you think they are unaware of what's
going on?
Speaker 12 (40:46):
Well, there's a lot of state laws, in the municipal
laws that they may not be aware of or may
not be a high priority.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Okay, So give me just one example of what you're
talking about.
Speaker 12 (40:57):
And am I saying it's illegal to own a night
or fifteen? So I went into the municipal code and
copied that line, put that into the website. And it's
really eaty to do. Whether they take action or not,
that's up to them. But I'm just trying to get
something to work with.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Okay. I mean, it's not doing any harm. I'm also
fairly sure it's not doing a whole lot of good
because they are quite aware that Colorado does not let
you have an AR fifteen and they definitely taking action
on that. And we're pursuing those cases up to and
trying to get that case even right now accepted by
(41:36):
the Supreme Court, get them the grants certain on it.
So they're certainly aware of that. As I say, I
don't think it hurts, but I'm not sure how much
it helps. But look, I appreciate you being involved in
looking up stuff, and you know who knows one of
those deals of if it doesn't hurt, then it probably
does help. I appreciate that. The main thing is, I
(41:57):
will say this for Bill, he has made it to
be involved. A lot of people sit on the sidelines
and say, boy, I wish they would do something. It
used to be well the NR should do that. Now
it's you know, GA should do that. SAF should do that,
those other groups should do that. There's not they, There's
(42:17):
only us. There's you and me. And you know what
that really means. Honestly, it's just you and for me
it's just me. Because I can't do anything for you.
I can't make you do anything. I can't have somebody
else do that. I would offer that it's irresponsible and
(42:39):
lazy to expect somebody else to do my work for me.
This is my job. It's my job to be an activist,
to speak up, to show up, to write a check,
to make a donation, to volunteer for a local candidate,
(43:00):
to go door to door, to put up signs to
get the right people elected. At the local level, at
the state level. There's nobody else's job to do that.
It's my job, and it's your job. It's the individual's job.
So it is the height of laziness, isn't it. I mean,
wouldn't you agree with me to say they should do
(43:22):
that some other they You say, why I don't have
the ability to We all have the ability to do something,
whatever that is, write a check, show up, volunteer work
the phones, do something, but that whole day should do something. Yeah,
it bothers me. You can tell. It's one of my
pet peece And really it's up to me, me to
(43:45):
get off my rear ends. You know that also means
up to you to get off your end. We'll be
right back with more gun talks.
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