In This Hour:
-- To honor 40 years since Melvin Forbes created the ground-breaking lightweight hunting rifle that changed the industry, Wilson Combat has built a few special rifles. Richard Mann helped with the project and explains the rifle and the significance.
-- A doctor explains how easy it is to learn life-saving techniques.
-- Smith & Wesson discontinues the classic Model 41 .22 pistol.
Gun Talk 08.31.25 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- To honor 40 years since Melvin Forbes created the ground-breaking lightweight hunting rifle that changed the industry, Wilson Combat has built a few special rifles. Richard Mann helped with the project and explains the rifle and the significance.
-- A doctor explains how easy it is to learn life-saving techniques.
-- Smith & Wesson discontinues the classic Model 41 .22 pistol.
Gun Talk 08.31.25 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Ruger LC carbine is the ultimate range companion, chambered
in five seven by twenty eight. It's fun to shoot
and low recoiling, a folding stock and collapsible sites to
make a compact. Learn more at Ruger dot com. Hey,
welcome back to Gun Talk. Tom Gresham here.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
If you want to join us, just give me a
colleague six six Talk Gun or Tom Talk Gun. We
like to talk about cool guns, old guns, new guns.
Doesn't matter as long as they shoot, because you know
Townsend Whalen, only accurate rifles are interesting. Now, we're going
to bring in a friend of mine who is a
real rifle guy. He shoots everything. Yeah, he's got, you know,
a background as a police officer and army officer and
(00:38):
all of that, but man, he likes his rifles. Richard
Man is Richard Shoot. You're writing for Field and Stream
and seems like everybody else these days.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, I'm a shooting editor at Field and Stream, but
I also do some stuff for the NRA Gun Digest
and OSG every now and then. A freelancer. You got
a freelancer with kids, you gotta work a lot.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
You know. It's like my wife parents when she said, well,
he's going to be a freelance writer. She said. In
their minds, they're thinking, no steady paycheck.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
That's exactly what it means. I got to correct you
on something though. Okay, you said I was an army ulcer.
I was an enlisted man. Oh, please, don't cross that line.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
With I'm gonna get you in trouble, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, I'll be on one of these shows where that's
stolen vallet valor show.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
There you go, there you go. All right, we've got
to talk about something that's near and dear to both
our hearts. You were a good friend of Melvin Forbes
for several decades, the West Virginia Guns with Genius Savant
who created the Ultra Light Arms and then the new
Ultra Light Arms rifle company. And of course now you've
been working with Wilson Combat because you actually put the
(01:46):
deal together for Bill Wilson to buy new Ultra Light Arms,
didn't you.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I don't know that you'd say put the deal together,
he asked me. He called me and asked me if
I thought Melvin would sell, and I said, I'll call
Melvin and talk to him and men. Melvin had a
long talk and he said, tell Bill, if he wants
to talk to me, he's got to come to West Virginia.
So I was kind of a go between, but I
didn't put the deal together.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
All right, what Melvin was, you know, he was ready
to sell, and I guess we got to back up
because I mean, we're going to talk about a new
cool rifle. Let's just let people know what's coming. We
got an amazing, very incredibly short run rifle we're going
to tell him about. But give him the quick the
highlights on the Ultra Light Arms rifle or I guess
the line of rifles, all these different models.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Well, about nineteen eighty three, Melvin built a lightweight rifle
for a customer, and while he was doing that, he thought,
I can think I can make one a lot lighter.
And he told a bunch of guys at deer Camp
he was going to build a five pound Bultation rifle,
but shoot, and they told him he was full of
sheep dip. That was Melvin's exact words. And he worked
(02:51):
on it and had troubles with the stock, and worked
with some guys from the Alleghanty Ballistics Lab. In nineteen
eighty five, he introduced he called at that time, the
ultra light rifle at shut Shop, and it was the
first one he ever built, was a five pounds two
eighty four Winchester because he felt that that cartridge provided
(03:12):
the most power at the lightest weight rifle he could build.
And after that it was like you know, the old say,
and the rest is history. Jim Carmichael wrote it up,
and all of a sudden everybody wanted one of Melvin's
rifles because they I call them the pound for pound
bus shooting rifles in the world cause they're so light
(03:32):
and they shoot like a bench rest rifle.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Well, that was the thing you got to remember. Back then,
your average rifle Honting rifle going to the field was
eight pounds before you stuck a scope on it, so
you're talking nine and a half ten pounds. And everybody said, oh, yeah,
it's got to be heavy. Bench rest rifles are heavy
and they shoot well. You cannot make a lightweight rifle
that will shoot well. And Melvioyne just said, well, you know,
I don't think that's right, and he starts building these
(03:55):
five pound rifles which were unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, So, with the help of the Allegheny Ballistic Lager.
They built rockets there. With the help of those guys
and their technology with carbon fire and kevlar, he put
together a stock that was actually stiffer than the barrel,
and then he betted the full lengths bedded from the
tang all the way to the tip of the four end,
so that stock actually supported the barrel and made the
(04:20):
barrel actually, I guess you could say think it was
thicker than it was because they reduced all the barrel
vibrations just like a bull barrel does. And the rifle
shut great.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And it shoots most bullet weights to the same port
of impact, which is crazy.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Yeah, because the barrel vibrations is almost eliminated. So when
usually rowed one hundred yards three o eight shooting on
one eighty, they're going to hit about the same spot. Obviously,
downrange trajectory changes, sure of course.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
All right, so yeah, all right, So tell us about
this new rifle that Wilson Combat is doing. Because Wilson
Combat bought ultra light arms or new ultra light arms,
and they have a whole of them. You can go
over to Wilsoncombat dot com take a look at that.
But the new short run, I mean incredibly short run,
like what twenty rifles.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, they're saying twenty. My son is their marketing director,
and I talked to him the other day and he said,
I think they're almost all sold. He said, we may
do another twenty oh. But the and I think what
happened is, you know a lot of people when Melvin
was building these rifles, they wanted them and couldn't afford them,
and now they're older and wish the hell they had
(05:29):
bought one of these rifles back then. And I think
that's what the draw is. But last year I just
mentioned the Bill, you know, I said, hey, after Melvin passed,
I said, next year is the fortieth anniversary of these rifles.
You ought to do something. And Bill got. I guess
he got with these engineers out there and figured it out.
And this new rifle that they've introduced is a it's
(05:52):
a Model twenty, which is the three to eight Linth action,
but they chambered it for two eighty four Winchester, which is,
like I said, the very first rifle that Melvin ever produced,
and that was on the cover of I think American
Riflement or something, you know, way back eight nineteen eighty five,
nineteen eighty six. But this new rifle has a twenty
inch barrel. It's the same new action that Melvin built
(06:14):
with some of the refinements that Wilson Combat has added
to it. They've added a hinge floor plate, They're using
a different stock from AG Composits. It's got a different
Kimny trigger, but the safety still locks the bolt. And
they opened up the scope mount holes from six to
forty eight.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Before, so a little stronger.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah good, yeah, yeah. And I got one of these
back a few months ago and got to play with it,
and man, it's I don't know that I've ever wanted
another rifle more than I wanted this one, because I'm
one of those guys that couldn't afford that two eighty
four back when Melvin was first making it.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
And it's a fantastic cartridge. It's you know, you could
argue it. It was the first short magnum and now with
the six five, the prcs, everybody's forgot about this cartridge.
But it's really a fantastic cartridge.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
It's funny you talk about I got one of the
early Melvin rifles when I was doing gun writing, what
almost forty years ago and got it in and played
with it and wrote it up, and it's one of
those deals. Back then you can say, you know what,
I could actually buy this rifle from them, I couldn't
afford it. I had to return it to him. So
it took me almost forty years before I could afford
(07:26):
a Melvin rifle. And now I got six of them
in the safe.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
You can't what's the problem once you get one? You
just like those with potato chips. Once you get one,
you can't stop.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Well, they all shoot. And I do, in fact have
a two eighty four that Melvin signed for me. And
for those who don't know, the two eighty four was
a cartridge that was a real checkered pass because Winchester
screwed it up when they introduced it, both in the
way they chambered it in the way that they did
the Sammy specks on. They got low pressure levels on it.
But if you're a handloader and you could take it
(07:57):
up to where it needs to be reasonable and safe
pressure levels, that thing is nipping at the heels of
a seven.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Mag Yeah, it's crazy. And it's a ship fits in
a short action right exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
If it's a short action and you got a five
pound rifle. Okay, so this is not once again, this
is not an inexpensive rifle. This little short run anniversary
model right about five grand?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, about five grand? Well, which is what if Melvin
was still building these rifles when he passed, he was
charging forty two hundred.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Form Okay, so that's not crazy at all.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
It's about what you'd pay for one of his. It's
painted to look like the what rifles Melvin made. I mean,
it's as close as you're going to get. And if
you find an original Melvin rifle in two eighty four,
you're going to pay that or more for it.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah. By the way, I just went on the Wilson
Combat website. I'm looking at their newness. This is interesting
right now, they've got a sale going on and these
things are fifteen percent off and they're selling their new
Ultra Light Arms Model twenties at like twenty five twenty
six hundred bucks.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
So that's a crazy good deal. And I've got I
even worked with Wilson to my substack is empty cases.
That's what I call my substack, and I worked with
them to put together an Empty Cases edition NOLA that's
got a few different little tweaks to it. It's got
the round bolt knob like melonewsed, it's got a Spartan
adapter for all their bipods, and it's even got the
(09:24):
empty cases logo on.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
The side of it.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
But you've got to be a member of the substack
to buy it, and then you get it at whatever
price they're selling the current rules at, and any any
cartridge you want.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
So let me give you a shout out because your substack,
for those who don't know, substack is basically place where
you can put your writing and people can subscribe to
it and become a member of it. But your writing
is first rate. It is at the level. And let
me just tell you, you're at the level of the Jack
O'Connors and the Almerquise before. But you actually know literature,
(09:56):
which is better. You're a good writer.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
That's I praise, especially coming from you. I'm just a
heel billy that likes to shoot guns, you see.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I just like Melvin I'm just a hillbilly that makes
guns and going yeah. But you're doing stuff nobody else
has ever done.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Melvin Well I learned a lot from him.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Tom Yeah, I mean he was one of a kind.
And you know the thing that people don't know is
that he was fun. He was always laughing, always telling jokes.
He was just fun to be around.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
He's a great storyteller.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Two. Yeah, it really was so two eighty four. If
people don't know about the how to learn about it.
The long wing shooters have rediscovered the two eighty four
when they get the throating right, the chambering right. And
one thing about the I don't know if we mentioned that,
the ultra light arms and new ult Light arms they
went with a three inch and Melvin did went with
a three inch magazine so you could see the bullets
(10:44):
out a little bit longer and really take advantage of
the cartridge.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah. So like you're looking at a short action seven
millimeter cartridge that you can actually load long, skinny high
BC bullets in. And the cool thing about this rifle
from Wilson Combat this anniversary to eighty four, it has
a one in eight five twists, so it'll handle those
long and skinny bullets. The original two eighty four has
(11:10):
had a one in ten.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Of course, nobody was talking about long range high BC
bullets back then.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
No, No, up.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
There you go, Well, like I said, I've got a
bunch of them. Now your next thing is to talk
to your friends over at Wilson get them to start
making some left handed ones for us, for those of
us who shooting.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah, left handed ones, left handed ones, and twenty five
creed More.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Oh, that's right for those who don't know. And I'm
just going to spill the beans on you. You created the
twenty five creed More long long before it was adopted
by anybody, and your timing was just off. They weren't
ready for it, man.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
No.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I talked to Hornedy about it, and they were all
excited about the six millimeter creed More at the time.
And I don't know that I was the first one
to do it. That's probably the first one to write
about do it and write about it, so I guess
I get a little credit for that. But I've been
shooting it for almost ten years and I think it's
the best twenty five caliber cartridge. What I really like
about twenty fives is there a great Varmut cartridge and
(12:06):
they're a great big game cartridge. And with the twenty
five creed War with that fast twist, you also get
a cartridge that allowed to perform the six y five
Creed war So it's kind of a triple threat and
there's not many cartridges like that, especially with that low recoil,
you know, and.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
You can shoot bullets from what's seventy up to one
hundred and thirty grains. Yep, amazing stuff. Richard Man, thank
you so much for bringing the information about this cool
rifle from Wilson Combat to commemorate Melvin Forbes, our friend
and those incredible groundbreaking rifles he made.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Thank you for taking the opportunity to talk to me.
And when you go order, well, you've got to have
a left handed one, so yeah, yeah, it probably won't
be ordered.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
With as soon as they make them on the correct side,
we'll be having a conversation. Take care, Ritrick, all right,
don't go far. We'll be right back with more gun talk.
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Speaker 9 (15:02):
This is David Kodria from the Warren Guns Notes from
the Resistance. I want to congratulate Tom Gresham for thirty
consistent and information packed years of gun talk. Tom yours
is an influential, widely respected voice, and the information and
insights you've regularly given us over the decades have helped
me and all of us be better prepared and equipped
(15:23):
in our efforts at defend and promote the right of
the people to keep bare arms. So thank you, and
here's to the best being yet to come.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
All Right, I got you here, Tom Gresham. It's gun Talk.
If you want to call in, got a ring report,
something you've been shooting, maybe a little experience when you're
out and about, give me a holler eight six six
talk gun or Tom talk gun. Get you in here.
I was talking earlier about going to the range this week.
We had some fun. Uh we did a lot shooting
(15:54):
working against timers. I really, I know I'm mentioned that
I really recommend it, and timers are not expensive. Get
your shot timer. I really recommend you get one and
work with it. You probably, I don't know. I don't
know if you can use it at an indoor range,
(16:16):
a public indoor range, that might be a problem. You
might have to find you an outdoor range where you
can use a timer and get with some buddies and
just start working on technique. Now. The one thing I
will tell you, trying to go fast at the beginning
may not be the way to go. In fact, probably
is not the way to go. You want to work
(16:37):
on your technique. You want to get your move to
the gun and your grip on the gun and they
draw correct and there's work. I'm making it faster and faster,
but work on it gradually, because if you don't have
your fundamentals right, if you try to go fast, it
actually could be dangerous. You may not have complete control
(16:59):
of your gun. The other thing, I say this all
the time, and I want to make sure people get it.
I'm gonna keep saying it. Once you have drawn in shot,
don't be quick to reholster. Take a deep breath. We'd
like to say holster reluctantly. Speed holstering has resulted in
(17:22):
people shooting themselves. Jam that gun back in the holster
because they're moving fast. I want to get back in there.
I want to do another draw. Slow down. When you
draw and you shoot, for one thing, keep the sights
on the target after you shoot, whether you go one
shot or six shots, bank, bank, bang, hold the gun
(17:45):
on the target. Wait, you want to train yourself to
not come off the target with the last shot. Why
is that because the bad guy might jump back up.
Because the bad guy may have buddies that jump right
back up. And if all your training is bang, and
then you immediately lower the gun and go back into
(18:06):
the holest and you're training yourself to stop fighting. What
you need to train yourself to do is to stay
in the fight. So when you fire that shot, well,
I like the way the gun sight says it. If
you're gonna fire one shot, you gotta have two sight pictures,
the one before the gun goes off and the one
after the gun goes off, So the sites are on
(18:27):
the target after the gun goes off. If you fire
two shots, you're gonna have three sight pictures. You see
where I'm going? Three shots You're gonna have four sight pictures.
You always have a sight picture after your last shot.
Oh the other thing, keep your finger on the trigger.
What did he say? Did he say keep your finger on? Yes?
(18:48):
I did. Guns pointed down range, guns pointed in a
safe direction. Don't we whipping that finger off the trigger
after your last shot? Guy jumps back up where his
buddy jumps out. You want to have that finger on
the trigger and ready to shoot. Now, that's why you
go before you holster. That allows you to keep your
(19:13):
finger straight, get that finger outside of the trigger guard,
and slowly go back to the holster. All right, let's
go talk with Jeff out of La Grande, Oregon. He's
been spinning some money.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Hey, Jeff, Well, I always do that. These firearms have
magnets in him, you know, and you just can't avoid him.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
What did you get?
Speaker 4 (19:38):
I picked up a really nice Ruger seventy seven mark
two in six five fifty five. Oh cool? I mean
it is as clean no blemish as anywhere. It's got
a two to seven loopholes on. It shoots really nice,
it handles nicely, and after I'm a reloading manual junkie. Okay,
(20:02):
and as soon as I got it. I went through everything,
and you know it only is about one hundred feet
slower than a two shoot seventy shooting a one hundred
and thirty grain partition has killed a lot of elk
for me, This sixty five fifty five will shoot one
hundred and twenty five grain partition one hundred feet per
(20:26):
second slower. I don't think the deer can tell the difference.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
No, it basically does everything you wanted to do. Like
a six to five creed More Wood or two sixty Rimmington,
they're all the same thing out to four hundred yards
because you don't have the fast twists. You can use
those long range bullets, but if you're going to be
shooting inside of four hundred yards, it will take care
of anything you want to do.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
And for my understanding, a six y five creed More
is basically the same with a different rate of twists
to stabilize the longer bullets.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Pretty much. So what else did you get?
Speaker 4 (21:02):
I got a Smith and Wesson made somewhere I called
Smith with the serial number made between nineteen o two
and nineteen oh four in thirty two twenty huh, and
it's immaculate. It hasn't been shot much at all, and
right now I'm in the process of looking for AMMO.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Well, yeah, but you knew you knew that going in, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
I knew that entirely. But man, it's got a really
nice trigger and like any smith, it's just nice to handle.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
It is and they are and you did very well.
Congratulations on those two. That is. That is tremendous. It's
part of the fun. Yeah, you can get the brand
new guns, and there are a lot of really nice
guns be made, but it is fun to find some
of these old ones. And I guess maybe it's just
a reminder to everybody don't be afraid of the old guns,
because some of them are really cool. And if people say,
(21:58):
why'd you get that, that's the wrong answer, Well I
was the wrong question. Maybe the right answer is because
I wanted to. That's good enough for me. You said,
I just wanted That's good enough for me. If that
makes you happy, does it bring you joy? Right, I'm
grassing movie right back. I'm concerned with more than just
(22:24):
using a gun for self defense. I'm concerned with safety
all the way around, being safe, trying to enhance your safety,
you know, I go and take the Wilderness Medical seminars,
and you need to know CPR, you need to know
a lot of things, and also just being aware of
being alert, getting your head out of your phone when
you're out in public, because that's the sensory deprivation device
(22:48):
makes your target. Makes you look like a target when
you walking through a parking lot and staring at your phone.
What do we say if you look like food, you're
gonna get eating. Well, we had a fellow tried to
get in last week, couldn't in here, so we're going
to bring in John from Maine right now. John, thank
you for your patience. I'm glad we're able to get
you in here.
Speaker 10 (23:06):
Well, I'm glad to be here. I tried to call
in after I heard you talking with Paul Markle and
you were talking about a lot of things, but particularly
about emergency treatment. And you're talking in multi shooter math
shooter situations where people bleed to death, and that's you've
(23:32):
talked about to Stop the Bleed class. And I'm a
retired physician and over the years I've seen so many
cases of where if somebody who was at the scene
could have helped, whether it was CPR or shopping, the
bleeding or whatever. It could have made all difference in
(23:52):
the world. And when you talked about how speed makes
a difference. The one incident that they point to is
the Boston Marathon bombing. Two pressure cookers went off filled
with shrapnel in a huge crowd. There were over two
(24:13):
hundred and sixty people injured, many of them quite seriously,
but there were only three deaths. And the reason was
it was at the end of the Boston Marathon race
where they had a they had kind of a field
hospital set up there, and then they were within five
miles of three level one trauma centers, and then there
(24:37):
weren't police keeping people away. I mean bystanders are helping
each other there. At one case they talked about a
lot where a guy says he had a traumatic amputation of.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
His leg, and.
Speaker 10 (24:49):
I came up and took his belt as tournique, which
we don't recommend, but in that case it probably that
say this guy's life.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, I mean, if it's what you have, it's what
you know. John. Let me asked you. One of the
I learned that surprised me when I was doing all
this training is that a lot of times just direct
pressure with the gauze, with a T shirt, with something
just I mean, really really hard direct pressure can stop
bleeding on the spot.
Speaker 10 (25:16):
Well that's intuitive, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
You know, you get to.
Speaker 10 (25:21):
You slice your finger when you're cutting fruit or something,
and what do you do? You put pressure on it?
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, you do. You grab it right, and.
Speaker 10 (25:29):
It stops it. And Paul Markle has a great book,
by the way, called Beyond the Boo Boo. He mentioned
it and I got it after I heard that, and
I actually read it on the plane. I was flying
back from Kansas. Written on the plane, read the whole book.
Very good book. I'd highly recommend it. But he points
(25:49):
out there's three kinds of being. There's capillary bleeding, which
is ninety percent of what happens to us at home.
And then there's venus bleeding and that usually larger amounts,
but it's not pulse of tile. Then there's the arterial bleeding,
and the arterial bleeding will kill somebody if it's serious.
Arterial bleeding two or three minutes, which is actually faster
(26:11):
than the heart stopping, can kill somebody. So I mean
that's if anybody who's been in the service, they teach
you first a little bit differently. They teach to look
for the bleeding first because that is actually the thing
that could kill somebody the fastest, and it does not
have to be firearm related at all. Every car accident,
(26:34):
every you know, somebody kid falls down on the playground,
gets cut on a piece of metal, or you know,
I mean just all sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
And people go through a playglass window or door or
something to get cut out. Yeah.
Speaker 10 (26:47):
Yeah, And actually most people want to be able to
do something. They don't want to just stand there and
do nothing. And God bless the American College of Surgeons.
Now I'm an internal medicine doctor, so we don't usually
give surgeons that much credit. But to their credit, they
(27:10):
have developed this Stop the Bleed Curriculum and it is
a very simple thing. It is much faster to teach,
much simple to teach people about stopping bleeding than this CPR.
CPR is actually a lot more complicated. It takes a
lot longer. At their website, and I advise people to
(27:32):
go to Stop the Bleed dot org. All one word.
They talk about an hour and a half. It can
teach class in an hour and a half, and that
is absolutely true. You can get hands on training. And
I discovered something after I tried to call last week.
I went to the website and I'm now a certified
(27:56):
stop the Bleed instructor because if you're medical personnel and
you've had class, it's pretty straightforward just to get registered.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
And our.
Speaker 10 (28:07):
Rotten gun club here locally, we're we've got our class
set up for the end of towards the end of September.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Gun club.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Any group. You could do this for a group.
Speaker 10 (28:23):
Oh yeah, church group?
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Uh?
Speaker 10 (28:26):
Any any any group? And I got thinking we're talking
you were talking earlier and about training teachers to be
defenders uh in the school, and that certainly is. But
it just hit me that they're actually to stop watches
start going when the person sharts start shooting. That's the
(28:50):
first stop watch. And then the second stop watch is
if somebody gets shot. Now is the stopwatch to fashion
to stop the bleeding?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
The bleeding? Wow, that's a really good point, John, And.
Speaker 10 (29:02):
You made the point that that the police don't let
people in. Well, who's going to stop it. It's going
to be the teacher, the custodian, the superintendent, uh, maybe
another student. We'll have some some middle school kids taking
the stops the lee class. They're not a thing the world.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Wrong with that, No, not at all.
Speaker 10 (29:23):
And you know to that point, Uh, well, the Boston
Marathon thing, they just had people right there who to
stop the bleeding very quickly. And it's it is relatively
simple and straightforward. People are afraid, you know, like you said,
so much of the time, direct pressure is all you need.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Well, the other thing is, you know what, in every
state has laws that protect the people. Say, I could
get sued. Now I just jump in and get it done.
You've got good merit and laws. John, I got to
keep moving here. I appreciate you so much. I want
to mention the Beyond the Boo Boo book is the
on Amazon. Beyond the Boo Boo Traumatic Medical Training for Citizens. Also,
you know, to Stop the Bleed dot org. This might
(30:07):
be a thing you say, well, I can do an
hour and a half class. Yeah, you can take your friends,
take your neighbors, take your kids. You know what, it
may be you who needs the work done on you
and your kids can save your life. John, again, thank
you so much. I appreciate your effort on this eight
sixty six talk. Gun be right back. Do you want
(30:41):
to have a special rifle that can do almost everything
and that your friends don't have.
Speaker 9 (30:47):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I'm Tom Gresham, host of gun Talk, and here's the deal.
Every few years we put out a special gun, a
very limited run that g T thirty marks thirty years
on the air, and this one is really different. It's
a general purpose rifle you can legally have in all
states and it's crazy versatile. Based on the Ruger American
(31:11):
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five six or three oh eight, sixteen inch threaded barrel,
only thirty seven inches long overall, extra long rail for
mounting a standard scope at extended irolly scope like Colonel
Jeff Cooper preferred or a red dot and it comes
(31:32):
with great iron sights so it's ready for the range
right out of the box. It looks great too, with
a cryptech camel finish topped with a smoke bronze metal treatment.
The five five to six version takes standard armgs and
the three oh eight uses standard AIICS pattern or pmgs.
(31:52):
This is a short run, so don't miss out. Check
out guntalkscout dot com. That's gun talk scout dot com.
It's accurate, attractive and you can take it with you
to all states, scout scope, standard scope, or no scope
at all. Set it up the way you want. When
(32:12):
you pull it from the case, your buddies will say
what the heck is that and they're gonna want one. Seriously,
this is a great rifle. Do everything, rifle hunting, target shooting,
defensive use. Gun talkscout dot com. Don't put it off,
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(32:35):
talkscout dot com. You know I do. I talk about
(32:56):
I carry a turn to get with me. Most of
the time. One of the was not learning this wilderness
medical class. We did two full days, so it was
building fires and signals and shelters and how to find wood,
all kinds of wilderness boy scouty type things. Was the
direct pressure thing and also hems static gauze. You know,
(33:19):
back we used to talk about getting quick clocked. It
was like a powder you could spread on stuff. And
now they have gauze that is impregnated with that and
we basically just take it, start stuffing into cuts, stuffing
into holes and leave it there and let the docs
at the er take it out when it gets there.
And even if you don't have that. If you just
have gauze, just stuff in the hole, keep shoving stuff
(33:42):
in there. Basically gets a matter of doing something. And
I think if you have no training, there's a reluctance
to do anything. And look, even if you don't get
this training, just remember direct pressure really works. Take off
a shot, a shirt or whatever. Just put it on
(34:03):
top of it and lean hard. I mean, like you
got to put enough pressure on it to where it
really hurts the person you're doing this too, and just
keep doing that until help arrives. Just stopping that bleeding.
So and like I said this because carrecs, accidents, chainsaws, axes, knives,
all sorts of things can cause bleeding, as we know
(34:24):
only too well. So I would encourage you to do this.
Get your family involved, get your church group, get your
hunting club, get your gun club. Offer it to everybody
in anywhere it's available. Oh yeah, I mentioned it's free.
So yeah, why wouldn't you do that? So is there
a gun that you kind of think, man, I would
(34:46):
like to have that, and that have to be a
particular model. Maybe it's a category of gun. I'm just
kind of curious. I'm watching a couple of them over
on gun Broker right now, and they're lightweight. There's several
people making and several companies make it really super lightweight
rifles now. And obviously I got started with the ultra
light arms, but you know, Savage Hasm Kimber has them,
(35:07):
some others have these lightweight.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Now.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
You got to be careful because sometimes what they'll say
is their their lightweight rifle might weigh six and a
half pounds, and that's lighter, but I'm not sure that
I would call that light. When you get down around
five pounds, man, that's the light rifle, and it really
makes a difference as you're in particularly if you're in
a situation where you're walking a lot, if you're hunting.
(35:30):
So just a thought for you there, But that's kind
of one of those that the category that I look at,
I am starting to look at the nicer nineteen elevens.
I don't know what nicer means. I don't know whether
it be a comedian where from eight hundred dollars up,
Probably when you start getting below about seven to eight
(35:53):
hundred dollars, I would call that the inexpense of or
less expensive nineteen elevens. Not that there's anything wrong with them.
It's just they're a little bit more polished, They're a
little smoother, they're a little more finished as you start
spending a little bit more money. I did, in fact,
just order one, and for whatever reason, I don't know
(36:16):
exactly why I ordered it in forty five. I really
like nine milimeters nineteen elevens. I like the way they shoot,
but I wanted a real classic nineteen eleven pistol in
forty five. It's what it was designed around. And I
right now, the prices on AMMO are so cheap if
(36:39):
you're buying mail order and buying them by the case,
and I've just picked up a case of forty five ACPMO.
It was one of those that I can't even afford
not to buy this. I'm not shooting forty five much.
I'm probably ninety five percent of my pistol shooting is
nine milimeter now. But holy cows, like wow, right now
(37:00):
I'm seeing ads. They're flooding my inbox for Labor Day sales.
Look for those that have shipping included, because I can
run the price up crazy prices twenty two cents around
for nine millimeters, forty five cents around for two, two,
three or five five six crazy prices. Are they going
(37:24):
to stay that way? I don't know. I mean prices fluctuate.
At some point, they got to go back up. Don't
know what's going to happen. I do know, and this
is something need to factor in. I was just reading
from SOB at Maxamo. He said, Look, most of the
copper we get, most of the brass we get comes
from overseas, and the tariffs are making a huge impact
(37:45):
on that. And he says, we're going to have to
raise our prices. I think that's probably a factor. A
lot of the raw materials come from overseas, and the
tariffs are going to hit those. The prices are going
to go up. I don't know when, and maybe you know.
In his case, he's adding a terraff add on to
(38:08):
every order. He said, I want you to He says,
I want you to see. It's not me. This is
what we're having to charge. And he says, my prices
are going up fifteen percent on my raw materials, so
I'm gonna have to raise my prices fifteen percent. I
get that, Okay, got to stay in business. And I
guess I'm just offering that just a way of saying
prices could go. I'm not saying they will, but I
(38:30):
think it's very possible, toward even likely, the prices on
Ammo are going to increase, and right now if you can,
there's always a good time to buy right now. It's
always a good time to buy Ammo. Buy a little
bit today, buy some next week, buy some the next week,
dollar cost averaging, and before you know it, you go, oh,
(38:50):
look at this. I got a lot of Ammo here.
I just got to tell you from my personal experience,
it feels really good to look over there and go, man,
I got plenty of Ammo. You know what, it's time negotiating,
(39:11):
All right, let's moat y'all down to Medford, Oregon. Repeat
is on the line with us. We'll range it for it.
Speaker 11 (39:16):
Hey Pete, Hey, good afternoon. Yeah. The Model forty one.
A couple of weeks ago, you were sticking with a
guy from Colts and mentioned that they're lucky enough to
have one. It was one of those things I just said,
I've always wanted one, so I went out and bought one.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
A wildbut Smith and Wesson Model forty one. By the way,
I don't know if you saw. They just announced this
week they're going to stop production on the forty one.
Speaker 11 (39:42):
Oh that's too bad. Mine was built in nineteen eighty three.
I believe it was so anyway, and it is so sweet.
It is just such a nice.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
It is one of the great twenty two pistols of
all time. It is just wonderful.
Speaker 11 (39:58):
And then they let's unto you talking about the the
nineteen eleven platform and nine milimeter. I picked up a
brand new Colt Combat Commander in nine milimeter.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
All steel.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
What do you think?
Speaker 11 (40:17):
Oh? Well, I wasn't too impressed at first because when
we took it out to the range, everybody was out
there and I pulled the trigger the first time and
I just went click, And I cycled it another round,
same thing three times. Took it over to the truck,
unloaded it, and kind of just monkeyed with it. You know,
they've got the model ladies have that stupid pin in there,
(40:38):
and I don't know what was going on in there,
but I monkeyed around with it and I just you know,
pushing on the buttons and on the firing pin and whatnot.
I got back out and started shooting, and it shot fine,
except for the trigger felt like a two stage trigger
and my gauge was showing about six and a half pounds.
I took it to a smith. He got it down
(41:00):
to three pounds, and it is just July.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
The series seventy triggers. I mean, we understand why they
did it, but it's just not as good a trigger
pull as the series seventy. The series eighty is just
not as good. So but now that you've got it
tuned up, you like the way it shoots.
Speaker 11 (41:20):
Oh, I love it. It's just fantastic, you know. And
some of my buddies it's like, you know, why'd you
buy it? You know, nineteen eleven and nine millimeter? Shoot
it and you'll see it's so true.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Just you know. That's what I've kind of figured out is, look,
I don't need I'm not going to try to explain
it to you. Just come to the range with me.
I'm going to hand it to you, you know, and
just shoot it for you know, two or three magazines
through it and they're all going, I just had no
idea these things.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Were like this, you know.
Speaker 11 (41:48):
And a couple of years ago I broke down about
a block nineteen and you know, people block clock, clock,
you know, it's just you can't beat and you can't
beat that nineteen eleven platform. I might not have seventy
rounds then, but I sure like, well.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
I will say this, it's more fun to shoot. It's
more you know, I don't know, tac tile or whatever
you want to call it. It just to me feels better.
I like the trimmer grip, and I love the triggers.
Once you get them, like you say, some of them
will come out of the box tuned up. The series
eighty triggers are not my favorite. If I'm looking, I'm
gonna look for one that's a Series seventy. And if
(42:27):
you don't know what I'm talking about, you gotta do
a little digging around. You can YouTube this thing and
find out and look, hey, I appreciate the ranging for
good stuff. And yeah, Smith and Western has announced they've
got to stop making the Model forty one. I get it.
I'm sure it's expensive to make. It's a high end
twenty two caliber semi automatic pistol. It was the darling
of Bullseye shooting for decades. It was one you aspired
(42:50):
to be able to get one of those, because they're expensive,
and you know they're still expensive, But holy cow, is
it nice. It's like when you shoot it, you just going,
oh that it's like a work of art in my hand. Oh,
I can hit stuff with it. It just I don't
know something about it. Just it's kind of a shame.
I get it. You gotta make money. And if you're
not selling, as we always say, there's only one reason
(43:13):
that they stop making something because they can't sell it
or they're not making money on it. And it's a
tough world to try to sell a two thousand dollars
twenty two pistol these days. Just kind of what it is.
I get it. But if you can find one, treat yourself.
Smith and Western Model forty one, one of the real
classic crystols of all time. Hang on me, come back.
(43:35):
We just got a really bad decision on gun rights
of the Second Amendment out of a court that has
treated just well in the past. We'll have that report
The Ruger LC carbine is the ultimate range companion, chambered
in five seven by twenty eight. It's fun to shoot
and low recoiling, a folding stock and collapsible sites to
make a compact. Learn more at Ruger dot com. Hey,
welcome back to Gun Talk. Tom Gresham here.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
If you want to join us, just give me a
colleague six six Talk Gun or Tom Talk Gun. We
like to talk about cool guns, old guns, new guns.
Doesn't matter as long as they shoot, because you know
Townsend Whalen, only accurate rifles are interesting. Now, we're going
to bring in a friend of mine who is a
real rifle guy. He shoots everything. Yeah, he's got, you know,
a background as a police officer and army officer and
(00:38):
all of that, but man, he likes his rifles. Richard
Man is Richard Shoot. You're writing for Field and Stream
and seems like everybody else these days.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, I'm a shooting editor at Field and Stream, but
I also do some stuff for the NRA Gun Digest
and OSG every now and then. A freelancer. You got
a freelancer with kids, you gotta work a lot.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
You know. It's like my wife parents when she said, well,
he's going to be a freelance writer. She said. In
their minds, they're thinking, no steady paycheck.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
That's exactly what it means. I got to correct you
on something though. Okay, you said I was an army ulcer.
I was an enlisted man. Oh, please, don't cross that line.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
With I'm gonna get you in trouble, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, I'll be on one of these shows where that's
stolen vallet valor show.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
There you go, there you go. All right, we've got
to talk about something that's near and dear to both
our hearts. You were a good friend of Melvin Forbes
for several decades, the West Virginia Guns with Genius Savant
who created the Ultra Light Arms and then the new
Ultra Light Arms rifle company. And of course now you've
been working with Wilson Combat because you actually put the
(01:46):
deal together for Bill Wilson to buy new Ultra Light Arms,
didn't you.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I don't know that you'd say put the deal together,
he asked me. He called me and asked me if
I thought Melvin would sell, and I said, I'll call
Melvin and talk to him and men. Melvin had a
long talk and he said, tell Bill, if he wants
to talk to me, he's got to come to West Virginia.
So I was kind of a go between, but I
didn't put the deal together.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
All right, what Melvin was, you know, he was ready
to sell, and I guess we got to back up
because I mean, we're going to talk about a new
cool rifle. Let's just let people know what's coming. We
got an amazing, very incredibly short run rifle we're going
to tell him about. But give him the quick the
highlights on the Ultra Light Arms rifle or I guess
the line of rifles, all these different models.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Well, about nineteen eighty three, Melvin built a lightweight rifle
for a customer, and while he was doing that, he thought,
I can think I can make one a lot lighter.
And he told a bunch of guys at deer Camp
he was going to build a five pound Bultation rifle,
but shoot, and they told him he was full of
sheep dip. That was Melvin's exact words. And he worked
(02:51):
on it and had troubles with the stock, and worked
with some guys from the Alleghanty Ballistics Lab. In nineteen
eighty five, he introduced he called at that time, the
ultra light rifle at shut Shop, and it was the
first one he ever built, was a five pounds two
eighty four Winchester because he felt that that cartridge provided
(03:12):
the most power at the lightest weight rifle he could build.
And after that it was like you know, the old say,
and the rest is history. Jim Carmichael wrote it up,
and all of a sudden everybody wanted one of Melvin's
rifles because they I call them the pound for pound
bus shooting rifles in the world cause they're so light
(03:32):
and they shoot like a bench rest rifle.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Well, that was the thing you got to remember. Back then,
your average rifle Honting rifle going to the field was
eight pounds before you stuck a scope on it, so
you're talking nine and a half ten pounds. And everybody said, oh, yeah,
it's got to be heavy. Bench rest rifles are heavy
and they shoot well. You cannot make a lightweight rifle
that will shoot well. And Melvioyne just said, well, you know,
I don't think that's right, and he starts building these
(03:55):
five pound rifles which were unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, So, with the help of the Allegheny Ballistic Lager.
They built rockets there. With the help of those guys
and their technology with carbon fire and kevlar, he put
together a stock that was actually stiffer than the barrel,
and then he betted the full lengths bedded from the
tang all the way to the tip of the four end,
so that stock actually supported the barrel and made the
(04:20):
barrel actually, I guess you could say think it was
thicker than it was because they reduced all the barrel
vibrations just like a bull barrel does. And the rifle
shut great.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And it shoots most bullet weights to the same port
of impact, which is crazy.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Yeah, because the barrel vibrations is almost eliminated. So when
usually rowed one hundred yards three o eight shooting on
one eighty, they're going to hit about the same spot. Obviously,
downrange trajectory changes, sure of course.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
All right, so yeah, all right, So tell us about
this new rifle that Wilson Combat is doing. Because Wilson
Combat bought ultra light arms or new ultra light arms,
and they have a whole of them. You can go
over to Wilsoncombat dot com take a look at that.
But the new short run, I mean incredibly short run,
like what twenty rifles.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, they're saying twenty. My son is their marketing director,
and I talked to him the other day and he said,
I think they're almost all sold. He said, we may
do another twenty oh. But the and I think what
happened is, you know a lot of people when Melvin
was building these rifles, they wanted them and couldn't afford them,
and now they're older and wish the hell they had
(05:29):
bought one of these rifles back then. And I think
that's what the draw is. But last year I just
mentioned the Bill, you know, I said, hey, after Melvin passed,
I said, next year is the fortieth anniversary of these rifles.
You ought to do something. And Bill got. I guess
he got with these engineers out there and figured it out.
And this new rifle that they've introduced is a it's
(05:52):
a Model twenty, which is the three to eight Linth action,
but they chambered it for two eighty four Winchester, which is,
like I said, the very first rifle that Melvin ever produced,
and that was on the cover of I think American
Riflement or something, you know, way back eight nineteen eighty five,
nineteen eighty six. But this new rifle has a twenty
inch barrel. It's the same new action that Melvin built
(06:14):
with some of the refinements that Wilson Combat has added
to it. They've added a hinge floor plate, They're using
a different stock from AG Composits. It's got a different
Kimny trigger, but the safety still locks the bolt. And
they opened up the scope mount holes from six to
forty eight.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Before, so a little stronger.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah good, yeah, yeah. And I got one of these
back a few months ago and got to play with it,
and man, it's I don't know that I've ever wanted
another rifle more than I wanted this one, because I'm
one of those guys that couldn't afford that two eighty
four back when Melvin was first making it.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
And it's a fantastic cartridge. It's you know, you could
argue it. It was the first short magnum and now with
the six five, the prcs, everybody's forgot about this cartridge.
But it's really a fantastic cartridge.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
It's funny you talk about I got one of the
early Melvin rifles when I was doing gun writing, what
almost forty years ago and got it in and played
with it and wrote it up, and it's one of
those deals. Back then you can say, you know what,
I could actually buy this rifle from them, I couldn't
afford it. I had to return it to him. So
it took me almost forty years before I could afford
(07:26):
a Melvin rifle. And now I got six of them
in the safe.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
You can't what's the problem once you get one? You
just like those with potato chips. Once you get one,
you can't stop.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Well, they all shoot. And I do, in fact have
a two eighty four that Melvin signed for me. And
for those who don't know, the two eighty four was
a cartridge that was a real checkered pass because Winchester
screwed it up when they introduced it, both in the
way they chambered it in the way that they did
the Sammy specks on. They got low pressure levels on it.
But if you're a handloader and you could take it
(07:57):
up to where it needs to be reasonable and safe
pressure levels, that thing is nipping at the heels of
a seven.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Mag Yeah, it's crazy. And it's a ship fits in
a short action right exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
If it's a short action and you got a five
pound rifle. Okay, so this is not once again, this
is not an inexpensive rifle. This little short run anniversary
model right about five grand?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, about five grand? Well, which is what if Melvin
was still building these rifles when he passed, he was
charging forty two hundred.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Form Okay, so that's not crazy at all.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
It's about what you'd pay for one of his. It's
painted to look like the what rifles Melvin made. I mean,
it's as close as you're going to get. And if
you find an original Melvin rifle in two eighty four,
you're going to pay that or more for it.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah. By the way, I just went on the Wilson
Combat website. I'm looking at their newness. This is interesting
right now, they've got a sale going on and these
things are fifteen percent off and they're selling their new
Ultra Light Arms Model twenties at like twenty five twenty
six hundred bucks.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
So that's a crazy good deal. And I've got I
even worked with Wilson to my substack is empty cases.
That's what I call my substack, and I worked with
them to put together an Empty Cases edition NOLA that's
got a few different little tweaks to it. It's got
the round bolt knob like melonewsed, it's got a Spartan
adapter for all their bipods, and it's even got the
(09:24):
empty cases logo on.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
The side of it.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
But you've got to be a member of the substack
to buy it, and then you get it at whatever
price they're selling the current rules at, and any any
cartridge you want.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
So let me give you a shout out because your substack,
for those who don't know, substack is basically place where
you can put your writing and people can subscribe to
it and become a member of it. But your writing
is first rate. It is at the level. And let
me just tell you, you're at the level of the Jack
O'Connors and the Almerquise before. But you actually know literature,
(09:56):
which is better. You're a good writer.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
That's I praise, especially coming from you. I'm just a
heel billy that likes to shoot guns, you see.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I just like Melvin I'm just a hillbilly that makes
guns and going yeah. But you're doing stuff nobody else
has ever done.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Melvin Well I learned a lot from him.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Tom Yeah, I mean he was one of a kind.
And you know the thing that people don't know is
that he was fun. He was always laughing, always telling jokes.
He was just fun to be around.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
He's a great storyteller.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Two. Yeah, it really was so two eighty four. If
people don't know about the how to learn about it.
The long wing shooters have rediscovered the two eighty four
when they get the throating right, the chambering right. And
one thing about the I don't know if we mentioned that,
the ultra light arms and new ult Light arms they
went with a three inch and Melvin did went with
a three inch magazine so you could see the bullets
(10:44):
out a little bit longer and really take advantage of
the cartridge.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah. So like you're looking at a short action seven
millimeter cartridge that you can actually load long, skinny high
BC bullets in. And the cool thing about this rifle
from Wilson Combat this anniversary to eighty four, it has
a one in eight five twists, so it'll handle those
long and skinny bullets. The original two eighty four has
(11:10):
had a one in ten.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Of course, nobody was talking about long range high BC
bullets back then.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
No, No, up.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
There you go, Well, like I said, I've got a
bunch of them. Now your next thing is to talk
to your friends over at Wilson get them to start
making some left handed ones for us, for those of
us who shooting.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah, left handed ones, left handed ones, and twenty five
creed More.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Oh, that's right for those who don't know. And I'm
just going to spill the beans on you. You created the
twenty five creed More long long before it was adopted
by anybody, and your timing was just off. They weren't
ready for it, man.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
No.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I talked to Hornedy about it, and they were all
excited about the six millimeter creed More at the time.
And I don't know that I was the first one
to do it. That's probably the first one to write
about do it and write about it, so I guess
I get a little credit for that. But I've been
shooting it for almost ten years and I think it's
the best twenty five caliber cartridge. What I really like
about twenty fives is there a great Varmut cartridge and
(12:06):
they're a great big game cartridge. And with the twenty
five creed War with that fast twist, you also get
a cartridge that allowed to perform the six y five
Creed war So it's kind of a triple threat and
there's not many cartridges like that, especially with that low recoil,
you know, and.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
You can shoot bullets from what's seventy up to one
hundred and thirty grains. Yep, amazing stuff. Richard Man, thank
you so much for bringing the information about this cool
rifle from Wilson Combat to commemorate Melvin Forbes, our friend
and those incredible groundbreaking rifles he made.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Thank you for taking the opportunity to talk to me.
And when you go order, well, you've got to have
a left handed one, so yeah, yeah, it probably won't
be ordered.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
With as soon as they make them on the correct side,
we'll be having a conversation. Take care, Ritrick, all right,
don't go far. We'll be right back with more gun talk.
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Speaker 8 (14:27):
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Speaker 9 (15:02):
This is David Kodria from the Warren Guns Notes from
the Resistance. I want to congratulate Tom Gresham for thirty
consistent and information packed years of gun talk. Tom yours
is an influential, widely respected voice, and the information and
insights you've regularly given us over the decades have helped
me and all of us be better prepared and equipped
(15:23):
in our efforts at defend and promote the right of
the people to keep bare arms. So thank you, and
here's to the best being yet to come.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
All Right, I got you here, Tom Gresham. It's gun Talk.
If you want to call in, got a ring report,
something you've been shooting, maybe a little experience when you're
out and about, give me a holler eight six six
talk gun or Tom talk gun. Get you in here.
I was talking earlier about going to the range this week.
We had some fun. Uh we did a lot shooting
(15:54):
working against timers. I really, I know I'm mentioned that
I really recommend it, and timers are not expensive. Get
your shot timer. I really recommend you get one and
work with it. You probably, I don't know. I don't
know if you can use it at an indoor range,
(16:16):
a public indoor range, that might be a problem. You
might have to find you an outdoor range where you
can use a timer and get with some buddies and
just start working on technique. Now. The one thing I
will tell you, trying to go fast at the beginning
may not be the way to go. In fact, probably
is not the way to go. You want to work
(16:37):
on your technique. You want to get your move to
the gun and your grip on the gun and they
draw correct and there's work. I'm making it faster and faster,
but work on it gradually, because if you don't have
your fundamentals right, if you try to go fast, it
actually could be dangerous. You may not have complete control
(16:59):
of your gun. The other thing, I say this all
the time, and I want to make sure people get it.
I'm gonna keep saying it. Once you have drawn in shot,
don't be quick to reholster. Take a deep breath. We'd
like to say holster reluctantly. Speed holstering has resulted in
(17:22):
people shooting themselves. Jam that gun back in the holster
because they're moving fast. I want to get back in there.
I want to do another draw. Slow down. When you
draw and you shoot, for one thing, keep the sights
on the target after you shoot, whether you go one
shot or six shots, bank, bank, bang, hold the gun
(17:45):
on the target. Wait, you want to train yourself to
not come off the target with the last shot. Why
is that because the bad guy might jump back up.
Because the bad guy may have buddies that jump right
back up. And if all your training is bang, and
then you immediately lower the gun and go back into
(18:06):
the holest and you're training yourself to stop fighting. What
you need to train yourself to do is to stay
in the fight. So when you fire that shot, well,
I like the way the gun sight says it. If
you're gonna fire one shot, you gotta have two sight pictures,
the one before the gun goes off and the one
after the gun goes off, So the sites are on
(18:27):
the target after the gun goes off. If you fire
two shots, you're gonna have three sight pictures. You see
where I'm going? Three shots You're gonna have four sight pictures.
You always have a sight picture after your last shot.
Oh the other thing, keep your finger on the trigger.
What did he say? Did he say keep your finger on? Yes?
(18:48):
I did. Guns pointed down range, guns pointed in a
safe direction. Don't we whipping that finger off the trigger
after your last shot? Guy jumps back up where his
buddy jumps out. You want to have that finger on
the trigger and ready to shoot. Now, that's why you
go before you holster. That allows you to keep your
(19:13):
finger straight, get that finger outside of the trigger guard,
and slowly go back to the holster. All right, let's
go talk with Jeff out of La Grande, Oregon. He's
been spinning some money.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Hey, Jeff, Well, I always do that. These firearms have
magnets in him, you know, and you just can't avoid him.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
What did you get?
Speaker 4 (19:38):
I picked up a really nice Ruger seventy seven mark
two in six five fifty five. Oh cool? I mean
it is as clean no blemish as anywhere. It's got
a two to seven loopholes on. It shoots really nice,
it handles nicely, and after I'm a reloading manual junkie. Okay,
(20:02):
and as soon as I got it. I went through everything,
and you know it only is about one hundred feet
slower than a two shoot seventy shooting a one hundred
and thirty grain partition has killed a lot of elk
for me, This sixty five fifty five will shoot one
hundred and twenty five grain partition one hundred feet per
(20:26):
second slower. I don't think the deer can tell the difference.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
No, it basically does everything you wanted to do. Like
a six to five creed More Wood or two sixty Rimmington,
they're all the same thing out to four hundred yards
because you don't have the fast twists. You can use
those long range bullets, but if you're going to be
shooting inside of four hundred yards, it will take care
of anything you want to do.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
And for my understanding, a six y five creed More
is basically the same with a different rate of twists
to stabilize the longer bullets.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Pretty much. So what else did you get?
Speaker 4 (21:02):
I got a Smith and Wesson made somewhere I called
Smith with the serial number made between nineteen o two
and nineteen oh four in thirty two twenty huh, and
it's immaculate. It hasn't been shot much at all, and
right now I'm in the process of looking for AMMO.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Well, yeah, but you knew you knew that going in, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
I knew that entirely. But man, it's got a really
nice trigger and like any smith, it's just nice to handle.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
It is and they are and you did very well.
Congratulations on those two. That is. That is tremendous. It's
part of the fun. Yeah, you can get the brand
new guns, and there are a lot of really nice
guns be made, but it is fun to find some
of these old ones. And I guess maybe it's just
a reminder to everybody don't be afraid of the old guns,
because some of them are really cool. And if people say,
(21:58):
why'd you get that, that's the wrong answer, Well I
was the wrong question. Maybe the right answer is because
I wanted to. That's good enough for me. You said,
I just wanted That's good enough for me. If that
makes you happy, does it bring you joy? Right, I'm
grassing movie right back. I'm concerned with more than just
(22:24):
using a gun for self defense. I'm concerned with safety
all the way around, being safe, trying to enhance your safety,
you know, I go and take the Wilderness Medical seminars,
and you need to know CPR, you need to know
a lot of things, and also just being aware of
being alert, getting your head out of your phone when
you're out in public, because that's the sensory deprivation device
(22:48):
makes your target. Makes you look like a target when
you walking through a parking lot and staring at your phone.
What do we say if you look like food, you're
gonna get eating. Well, we had a fellow tried to
get in last week, couldn't in here, so we're going
to bring in John from Maine right now. John, thank
you for your patience. I'm glad we're able to get
you in here.
Speaker 10 (23:06):
Well, I'm glad to be here. I tried to call
in after I heard you talking with Paul Markle and
you were talking about a lot of things, but particularly
about emergency treatment. And you're talking in multi shooter math
shooter situations where people bleed to death, and that's you've
(23:32):
talked about to Stop the Bleed class. And I'm a
retired physician and over the years I've seen so many
cases of where if somebody who was at the scene
could have helped, whether it was CPR or shopping, the
bleeding or whatever. It could have made all difference in
(23:52):
the world. And when you talked about how speed makes
a difference. The one incident that they point to is
the Boston Marathon bombing. Two pressure cookers went off filled
with shrapnel in a huge crowd. There were over two
(24:13):
hundred and sixty people injured, many of them quite seriously,
but there were only three deaths. And the reason was
it was at the end of the Boston Marathon race
where they had a they had kind of a field
hospital set up there, and then they were within five
miles of three level one trauma centers, and then there
(24:37):
weren't police keeping people away. I mean bystanders are helping
each other there. At one case they talked about a
lot where a guy says he had a traumatic amputation of.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
His leg, and.
Speaker 10 (24:49):
I came up and took his belt as tournique, which
we don't recommend, but in that case it probably that
say this guy's life.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, I mean, if it's what you have, it's what
you know. John. Let me asked you. One of the
I learned that surprised me when I was doing all
this training is that a lot of times just direct
pressure with the gauze, with a T shirt, with something
just I mean, really really hard direct pressure can stop
bleeding on the spot.
Speaker 10 (25:16):
Well that's intuitive, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
You know, you get to.
Speaker 10 (25:21):
You slice your finger when you're cutting fruit or something,
and what do you do? You put pressure on it?
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, you do. You grab it right, and.
Speaker 10 (25:29):
It stops it. And Paul Markle has a great book,
by the way, called Beyond the Boo Boo. He mentioned
it and I got it after I heard that, and
I actually read it on the plane. I was flying
back from Kansas. Written on the plane, read the whole book.
Very good book. I'd highly recommend it. But he points
(25:49):
out there's three kinds of being. There's capillary bleeding, which
is ninety percent of what happens to us at home.
And then there's venus bleeding and that usually larger amounts,
but it's not pulse of tile. Then there's the arterial bleeding,
and the arterial bleeding will kill somebody if it's serious.
Arterial bleeding two or three minutes, which is actually faster
(26:11):
than the heart stopping, can kill somebody. So I mean
that's if anybody who's been in the service, they teach
you first a little bit differently. They teach to look
for the bleeding first because that is actually the thing
that could kill somebody the fastest, and it does not
have to be firearm related at all. Every car accident,
(26:34):
every you know, somebody kid falls down on the playground,
gets cut on a piece of metal, or you know,
I mean just all sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
And people go through a playglass window or door or
something to get cut out. Yeah.
Speaker 10 (26:47):
Yeah, And actually most people want to be able to
do something. They don't want to just stand there and
do nothing. And God bless the American College of Surgeons.
Now I'm an internal medicine doctor, so we don't usually
give surgeons that much credit. But to their credit, they
(27:10):
have developed this Stop the Bleed Curriculum and it is
a very simple thing. It is much faster to teach,
much simple to teach people about stopping bleeding than this CPR.
CPR is actually a lot more complicated. It takes a
lot longer. At their website, and I advise people to
(27:32):
go to Stop the Bleed dot org. All one word.
They talk about an hour and a half. It can
teach class in an hour and a half, and that
is absolutely true. You can get hands on training. And
I discovered something after I tried to call last week.
I went to the website and I'm now a certified
(27:56):
stop the Bleed instructor because if you're medical personnel and
you've had class, it's pretty straightforward just to get registered.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
And our.
Speaker 10 (28:07):
Rotten gun club here locally, we're we've got our class
set up for the end of towards the end of September.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Gun club.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Any group. You could do this for a group.
Speaker 10 (28:23):
Oh yeah, church group?
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Uh?
Speaker 10 (28:26):
Any any any group? And I got thinking we're talking
you were talking earlier and about training teachers to be
defenders uh in the school, and that certainly is. But
it just hit me that they're actually to stop watches
start going when the person sharts start shooting. That's the
(28:50):
first stop watch. And then the second stop watch is
if somebody gets shot. Now is the stopwatch to fashion
to stop the bleeding?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
The bleeding? Wow, that's a really good point, John, And.
Speaker 10 (29:02):
You made the point that that the police don't let
people in. Well, who's going to stop it. It's going
to be the teacher, the custodian, the superintendent, uh, maybe
another student. We'll have some some middle school kids taking
the stops the lee class. They're not a thing the world.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Wrong with that, No, not at all.
Speaker 10 (29:23):
And you know to that point, Uh, well, the Boston
Marathon thing, they just had people right there who to
stop the bleeding very quickly. And it's it is relatively
simple and straightforward. People are afraid, you know, like you said,
so much of the time, direct pressure is all you need.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Well, the other thing is, you know what, in every
state has laws that protect the people. Say, I could
get sued. Now I just jump in and get it done.
You've got good merit and laws. John, I got to
keep moving here. I appreciate you so much. I want
to mention the Beyond the Boo Boo book is the
on Amazon. Beyond the Boo Boo Traumatic Medical Training for Citizens. Also,
you know, to Stop the Bleed dot org. This might
(30:07):
be a thing you say, well, I can do an
hour and a half class. Yeah, you can take your friends,
take your neighbors, take your kids. You know what, it
may be you who needs the work done on you
and your kids can save your life. John, again, thank
you so much. I appreciate your effort on this eight
sixty six talk. Gun be right back. Do you want
(30:41):
to have a special rifle that can do almost everything
and that your friends don't have.
Speaker 9 (30:47):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
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I carry a turn to get with me. Most of
the time. One of the was not learning this wilderness
medical class. We did two full days, so it was
building fires and signals and shelters and how to find wood,
all kinds of wilderness boy scouty type things. Was the
direct pressure thing and also hems static gauze. You know,
(33:19):
back we used to talk about getting quick clocked. It
was like a powder you could spread on stuff. And
now they have gauze that is impregnated with that and
we basically just take it, start stuffing into cuts, stuffing
into holes and leave it there and let the docs
at the er take it out when it gets there.
And even if you don't have that. If you just
have gauze, just stuff in the hole, keep shoving stuff
(33:42):
in there. Basically gets a matter of doing something. And
I think if you have no training, there's a reluctance
to do anything. And look, even if you don't get
this training, just remember direct pressure really works. Take off
a shot, a shirt or whatever. Just put it on
(34:03):
top of it and lean hard. I mean, like you
got to put enough pressure on it to where it
really hurts the person you're doing this too, and just
keep doing that until help arrives. Just stopping that bleeding.
So and like I said this because carrecs, accidents, chainsaws, axes, knives,
all sorts of things can cause bleeding, as we know
(34:24):
only too well. So I would encourage you to do this.
Get your family involved, get your church group, get your
hunting club, get your gun club. Offer it to everybody
in anywhere it's available. Oh yeah, I mentioned it's free.
So yeah, why wouldn't you do that? So is there
a gun that you kind of think, man, I would
(34:46):
like to have that, and that have to be a
particular model. Maybe it's a category of gun. I'm just
kind of curious. I'm watching a couple of them over
on gun Broker right now, and they're lightweight. There's several
people making and several companies make it really super lightweight
rifles now. And obviously I got started with the ultra
light arms, but you know, Savage Hasm Kimber has them,
(35:07):
some others have these lightweight.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Now.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
You got to be careful because sometimes what they'll say
is their their lightweight rifle might weigh six and a
half pounds, and that's lighter, but I'm not sure that
I would call that light. When you get down around
five pounds, man, that's the light rifle, and it really
makes a difference as you're in particularly if you're in
a situation where you're walking a lot, if you're hunting.
(35:30):
So just a thought for you there, But that's kind
of one of those that the category that I look at,
I am starting to look at the nicer nineteen elevens.
I don't know what nicer means. I don't know whether
it be a comedian where from eight hundred dollars up,
Probably when you start getting below about seven to eight
(35:53):
hundred dollars, I would call that the inexpense of or
less expensive nineteen elevens. Not that there's anything wrong with them.
It's just they're a little bit more polished, They're a
little smoother, they're a little more finished as you start
spending a little bit more money. I did, in fact,
just order one, and for whatever reason, I don't know
(36:16):
exactly why I ordered it in forty five. I really
like nine milimeters nineteen elevens. I like the way they shoot,
but I wanted a real classic nineteen eleven pistol in
forty five. It's what it was designed around. And I
right now, the prices on AMMO are so cheap if
(36:39):
you're buying mail order and buying them by the case,
and I've just picked up a case of forty five ACPMO.
It was one of those that I can't even afford
not to buy this. I'm not shooting forty five much.
I'm probably ninety five percent of my pistol shooting is
nine milimeter now. But holy cows, like wow, right now
(37:00):
I'm seeing ads. They're flooding my inbox for Labor Day sales.
Look for those that have shipping included, because I can
run the price up crazy prices twenty two cents around
for nine millimeters, forty five cents around for two, two,
three or five five six crazy prices. Are they going
(37:24):
to stay that way? I don't know. I mean prices fluctuate.
At some point, they got to go back up. Don't
know what's going to happen. I do know, and this
is something need to factor in. I was just reading
from SOB at Maxamo. He said, Look, most of the
copper we get, most of the brass we get comes
from overseas, and the tariffs are making a huge impact
(37:45):
on that. And he says, we're going to have to
raise our prices. I think that's probably a factor. A
lot of the raw materials come from overseas, and the
tariffs are going to hit those. The prices are going
to go up. I don't know when, and maybe you know.
In his case, he's adding a terraff add on to
(38:08):
every order. He said, I want you to He says,
I want you to see. It's not me. This is
what we're having to charge. And he says, my prices
are going up fifteen percent on my raw materials, so
I'm gonna have to raise my prices fifteen percent. I
get that, Okay, got to stay in business. And I
guess I'm just offering that just a way of saying
prices could go. I'm not saying they will, but I
(38:30):
think it's very possible, toward even likely, the prices on
Ammo are going to increase, and right now if you can,
there's always a good time to buy right now. It's
always a good time to buy Ammo. Buy a little
bit today, buy some next week, buy some the next week,
dollar cost averaging, and before you know it, you go, oh,
(38:50):
look at this. I got a lot of Ammo here.
I just got to tell you from my personal experience,
it feels really good to look over there and go, man,
I got plenty of Ammo. You know what, it's time negotiating,
(39:11):
All right, let's moat y'all down to Medford, Oregon. Repeat
is on the line with us. We'll range it for it.
Speaker 11 (39:16):
Hey Pete, Hey, good afternoon. Yeah. The Model forty one.
A couple of weeks ago, you were sticking with a
guy from Colts and mentioned that they're lucky enough to
have one. It was one of those things I just said,
I've always wanted one, so I went out and bought one.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
A wildbut Smith and Wesson Model forty one. By the way,
I don't know if you saw. They just announced this
week they're going to stop production on the forty one.
Speaker 11 (39:42):
Oh that's too bad. Mine was built in nineteen eighty three.
I believe it was so anyway, and it is so sweet.
It is just such a nice.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
It is one of the great twenty two pistols of
all time. It is just wonderful.
Speaker 11 (39:58):
And then they let's unto you talking about the the
nineteen eleven platform and nine milimeter. I picked up a
brand new Colt Combat Commander in nine milimeter.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
All steel.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
What do you think?
Speaker 11 (40:17):
Oh? Well, I wasn't too impressed at first because when
we took it out to the range, everybody was out
there and I pulled the trigger the first time and
I just went click, And I cycled it another round,
same thing three times. Took it over to the truck,
unloaded it, and kind of just monkeyed with it. You know,
they've got the model ladies have that stupid pin in there,
(40:38):
and I don't know what was going on in there,
but I monkeyed around with it and I just you know,
pushing on the buttons and on the firing pin and whatnot.
I got back out and started shooting, and it shot fine,
except for the trigger felt like a two stage trigger
and my gauge was showing about six and a half pounds.
I took it to a smith. He got it down
(41:00):
to three pounds, and it is just July.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
The series seventy triggers. I mean, we understand why they
did it, but it's just not as good a trigger
pull as the series seventy. The series eighty is just
not as good. So but now that you've got it
tuned up, you like the way it shoots.
Speaker 11 (41:20):
Oh, I love it. It's just fantastic, you know. And
some of my buddies it's like, you know, why'd you
buy it? You know, nineteen eleven and nine millimeter? Shoot
it and you'll see it's so true.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Just you know. That's what I've kind of figured out is, look,
I don't need I'm not going to try to explain
it to you. Just come to the range with me.
I'm going to hand it to you, you know, and
just shoot it for you know, two or three magazines
through it and they're all going, I just had no
idea these things.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Were like this, you know.
Speaker 11 (41:48):
And a couple of years ago I broke down about
a block nineteen and you know, people block clock, clock,
you know, it's just you can't beat and you can't
beat that nineteen eleven platform. I might not have seventy
rounds then, but I sure like, well.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
I will say this, it's more fun to shoot. It's
more you know, I don't know, tac tile or whatever
you want to call it. It just to me feels better.
I like the trimmer grip, and I love the triggers.
Once you get them, like you say, some of them
will come out of the box tuned up. The series
eighty triggers are not my favorite. If I'm looking, I'm
gonna look for one that's a Series seventy. And if
(42:27):
you don't know what I'm talking about, you gotta do
a little digging around. You can YouTube this thing and
find out and look, hey, I appreciate the ranging for
good stuff. And yeah, Smith and Western has announced they've
got to stop making the Model forty one. I get it.
I'm sure it's expensive to make. It's a high end
twenty two caliber semi automatic pistol. It was the darling
of Bullseye shooting for decades. It was one you aspired
(42:50):
to be able to get one of those, because they're expensive,
and you know they're still expensive, But holy cow, is
it nice. It's like when you shoot it, you just going,
oh that it's like a work of art in my hand. Oh,
I can hit stuff with it. It just I don't
know something about it. Just it's kind of a shame.
I get it. You gotta make money. And if you're
not selling, as we always say, there's only one reason
(43:13):
that they stop making something because they can't sell it
or they're not making money on it. And it's a
tough world to try to sell a two thousand dollars
twenty two pistol these days. Just kind of what it is.
I get it. But if you can find one, treat yourself.
Smith and Western Model forty one, one of the real
classic crystols of all time. Hang on me, come back.
(43:35):
We just got a really bad decision on gun rights
of the Second Amendment out of a court that has
treated just well in the past. We'll have that report
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