December 21, 2025 • 43 mins
In this hour:
-- Getting geeky on the details that make shooting at extreme ranges doable. Ryan Cleckner reveals the secrets in his new book.
-- Shooting a .44 Magnum can be fun, if you have a big gun.
-- An organization helps blind and disabled people shoot and hunt. This veteran got a massive 11-point whitetail buck.
Gun Talk 12.21.25 Hour 3
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- Getting geeky on the details that make shooting at extreme ranges doable. Ryan Cleckner reveals the secrets in his new book.
-- Shooting a .44 Magnum can be fun, if you have a big gun.
-- An organization helps blind and disabled people shoot and hunt. This veteran got a massive 11-point whitetail buck.
Gun Talk 12.21.25 Hour 3
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:14):
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Speaker 3 (00:31):
Hey, we're back with you here, Tom Gresham. It is
gun talk. We talk about guns around here, Surprise Price.
This is an interesting story and I'll get to the
callers in just a minute. In the US, if you
have a felony conviction, you are prohibited from owning a
gun for the rest of your life. Doesn't matter if
(00:54):
it was a white collar crime, it was an embezzlement,
tax evasion. Forty years ago, ye had no guns for life.
I've always thought that was wrong. I've always thought, you know,
once you have served your time, you paid your debt
to society, you should have all your rights back. Right, Well,
why would you not? Makes no sense? Doesn't seem American? Well,
(01:16):
people have started to challenge that, and right now the
move is to say, okay, well, if it's a nonviolent offense,
you should get your rights back. You should get your
gun rights back. I mean, you don't lose your First
Amendment rights, just your Second Amenment rights. And one of
the people who's been speaking out on this, and there
are multiple lawsuits challenging this right now, but one of
(01:37):
the people who's been speaking out on this is the
rapper turned country music star Jelly Roll, who of course
was served a sentence for robbery and drug convictions. And
he's saying, you know, I want to get my rights
back because I want to go hunting. You know, I
like to hunt. So he's been talking about this for
(01:59):
several weeks least that I've seen, and the idea was, well,
he would make a possibly a good spokesperson, somebody with
celebrity to get out there and challenge this. Well then
about three days ago, the governor of Tennessee pardoned him,
issued him a pardon, which is going to make it
(02:22):
possible for him to get his rights back. What's that
going to mean for everybody else who falls under this
somebody who did some kind of white collar crime maybe
did something even as a kid in charged as an adult.
And here's the thing I need you to understand. It
could be a misdemeanor conviction. It doesn't have to be
(02:42):
a felloty conviction. And all it has to be is
something that.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
You could.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Have served a year in prison for. That's the bit smark.
If you are sentenced but pardoned so you don't serve
a day in jail, you still lose your rights for
life because you could have gone to jail for a year.
You didn't. It was a misdemeanor conviction that could have
(03:14):
sent you to jail for a year. No you didn't,
but you still lose your rights for the rest of
your life. There's a lot of people got caught up
in that, a lot of people who are prohibited from
owning guns and exercising a constitutional right. We'll see how
(03:34):
it goes. We'll keep you posted on that. All right,
let's go to the phones. Let's line three. Eric has
been on hold for quite a while. Eric, Thank you
so much for calling in out of Minnesota. Welcome to
Gun Talk.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
Thank you, Tom, and thank you for your show. Is
so important. Just like what you were just talking about,
not only explaining our rights to citizens, but fighting for
them if you have a fantastic show.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Okay, before you go any further, my the email just
popped up and I am looking at a picture of
you with a gorgeous white tail buck. Tell me about this.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Oh, thank you? Yes heroes. New Hope Foundation is an
organization that takes blinded veterans, paralyzed veterans, mptees, and disabled
children for hunts, whether it be turkey fishing or deer hunt.
And this was I was grateful enough to be able
(04:30):
to come back a second year to get a chance
at hunting some white tail. And oddly enough, I know
other people have gone through things like this. I had
a chance at an eight pointer last year, all wined up.
The buck was just standing there and I got the
(04:50):
okay to pull the trigger and I heard a big
click because my forgot to rack her around. He said,
I have to bring you back next year. We can't
let this stand. And this year I got a bigger book.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
And yes, yes you do. Am I counting eleven points
on this guy. Yes, wow, he's huge too. By the way,
Oh you know what we did, we left out one
important thing. You're blind.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Yes, I'm one hundred percent blind. I was suffered while
I was blowing up a few times in a falluja Iraq,
but when I received a traumatic brain injury and it
took bull my eyes. But that hasn't stopped me from
my love of shooting, whether it be target or hunting
(05:46):
or going out and doing anything. And the foundation like
that assists in us. It's really kind of cool because
you're back to a team effort. I use a bog
pod or tripod, and then with an apparatus called a
snake look, which attaches a smartphone to the barrel of
(06:07):
the scope looking down the scope that I have a
spotter that can look at the phone there is lining
me up. And on this particular deer, it was one
forty five yards and it was not at a full run,
but it was at a trot, so I got it
on the move. I was pretty wow.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
So what is the spotter telling you? It's like left left, left,
left or something like that.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Yeah, and it all depends on Now I've gone turkey
hunting with him. Got a nice tom at sixty yards
with five hundred mossburg By nicknamed it a Tommy knocker,
by the way. But in that when it's like with turkeys.
He puts his finger on the back of my neck
(06:57):
and then moves up and down for elevation or depression
left or right, and then he just double taps back
of my neck and I can pull the trigger. In
this case, we were able to speak a little bit
dear hunting.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Of course, sure, because he's a little further away. Wow, well, congratulations,
that is amazing. And again, what is the name of
the organization.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
Heroes New Hope Foundation. They're out of Indiana, the Sullivan area.
And of course they got a Facebook page and a
website Heroesnew Hope dot org. They can find it. I
have a quick question also, if I.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
May, you bet you bet?
Speaker 5 (07:39):
I got my lovely bride a rugor Security three eighty
for her birthday because it has a light rack and
it's easier for because she had a Walter three eighty
and that was very hard for her to rack. Okay,
I would like and she would like to equip it
with a laser and light and maybe a dot. And
(08:00):
my concern was some of the red dots may be
a little heavy to throw it out of battery or
out of cycle on that slide. I would appreciate any suggestions,
whether it be a stream light deal r for the
laser light combination, or a decent red dot to use
on there for her that she would like, and concerns,
(08:22):
Like I said, nothing too heavy to throw it out
of cycle, and nothing silly with batteries mounted on the
bottom side so you have to take it off to
change batteries or anything like that. But any suggestions, I'd
be appreciated.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
And I am assuming at this point she's not carrying it.
This is like home defense.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
Rig correct around the around the yard. We live out
in the rural area, so for the house.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
And the art, because frankly, it's a lot of stuff
to hang onto a small pistol. Yes, are you talking
about a light, a laser and a red dot or
whatever combination be Yeah, I'm going to make a suggestion here,
just going to throw this out. I find the laser
and red dot to be redundant, unnecessary, and if you
(09:09):
got the red dot, you're good to go. I would say,
go with a small light and then probably honestly, any
of the smaller red dots are going to weigh an ounce,
you know, anything with a chichikon, which is expensive on
down to the SIGs to the crimson trace to any
of them. They're hall of signs. They're all have one
(09:32):
that is smaller, smaller footprint, and should work on that.
But they really are all about then the one ounce
slightly more. I don't think it's going to cause a
problem with functionality.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Okay, well take that into consideration. All right, good man,
appreciate your so so much, Michelle and Jim and you
and everything you guys do. Really appreciate. And man, I
couldn't be more tickled pink to get a deer the size.
I'm tired up.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I meant to tell you people need to trust me
on this. Anybody would be tickle peaked with this buck.
It is huge, eleven point white. Yah, that's gorgeous air.
Congratulations and thank you. That is a super arrange report.
Take this into the break our number eight sixty six
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inventory today at durysguns dot com. Ky y'all, this is
a W. R. Hawkins from brid Bart News. Welcome back
to gun Talk. Well. Well, well let's talk about well
(13:13):
what do you think guns and optics and AMO and
pretty much everything else. I mentioned the deal with Trump
he is going to get marijuana rescheduled from a Schedule one.
I think they're Schedule three. I'm not real familiar with
the whole deal, basically trying to decriminalize marijuana. The problem
(13:35):
is a lot of people who use marijuana. Look, you
don't have to have a conviction. Just if you're a
user of marijuana. You are prohibited by law from holding
a gun. A lot of people don't know that, and
it actually asks that on the forty four to seventy
three form when you are filling it out. But even
if you're not buying a gun, you're not supposed to
own a gun if you are even a recreational user.
(13:58):
Even and here's the thing, people Understan even if it's medical,
use medical marijuana. You got a medical marijuana card. Sorry, no,
no guns for you. Should it be that way? Probably
not anymore than if you drink alcohol. But that's what
it is. So is this going to change that? Is
(14:18):
that going to take this? No, it's not. I mean
the short answer is no. Don't think that this is
going to change anything, at least not for now. But
there are I think multiple at least one, but there
may be several lawsuits working their way through the courts.
About this very thing, challenging the law itself. That's kind
(14:42):
of where we are. You'd love to say, well, let's
just change the law. Here's the problem. Even if the
Democrats loved the idea, if it is introduced by a Republican,
they will vote no in the Senate. You may have
(15:04):
enough of a majority in the House to get something past,
but you can't get through the Senate because of the
rule you have to have sixty votes to break a filibuster,
and they'll just say no, it doesn't happen. Even if
it's the greatest thing in the world and they love
the idea, if it comes from Donald Trump, they'll vote
no and they'll crush it. So that's where we are.
(15:26):
So look, that's political reality. You got. It's just numbers.
It's all it is to math. That being the case
a lot of these things, we are going to have
to get them done in the courts, because if we
can get that done, then we don't have to have
a vote in the House and Senate. You don't have
to go through Congress for those if we can get
(15:48):
the Supreme Court, and that's where it always ends up
to say, of course, you can't lose your constitutional rights
because you use marijuana or you kid me. Of course,
you can't lose your constitutional rights to keep bare arms
for life because of a misdemeanor conviction forty years ago
(16:15):
that didn't put you in jail, that you could have
been sentenced to a year in jail. That's ridiculous. Supreme
Court should take those cases and should rule on those cases.
The Supreme Court, because we're never going to get it
through Congress right now, should and I certainly think they
(16:38):
will take a so called assault weapon case. Laws which
ban the ownership or the sale of regular old rifles.
Semi automatic rifles been around. The semi automatic has been
around for one hundred and twenty years. Nothing new about it,
(16:59):
nothing spectacular about it, just goes bang one time when
you pull the trigger. And yet some places ban them
and more places, more states are trying to ban those guns.
Super popular, ubiquitous, even in common use. Certainly so, how
(17:21):
in the world are they banned? Well, because they did it,
and they will continue to do it until somebody tells
them they can't. And the other people who could tell
them they can't would be Congress, which may or may
not have an impact, but it's not going to happen. Look,
Congress is not going to remove the ban, the state
bans on semi automatic firearms. The Supreme Court can though,
(17:47):
the Supreme Court can come in and say no, that's unconstitutional.
That is a violation of these people's constitutional rights. It's
a violation of the Second Amendment, which is the right
of to keep the people to keep him bear arms
shall not be infringed the people being us. Now, we
(18:12):
do have an interesting thing going on right now, which is, Okay,
who are the people? Is it anybody in the US
or is it only US citizens? Interesting? Let's go talk
with Matthew on line five. He's in Metie, Louisiana.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
Hey Matthew, Oh Tom, and first, Merry Christmas to you
all the gun Talk crew.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
And then I have a question.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
All right, hold on, hold on, Matthew, Hold on, Matthew.
I know you were told not to use the speaker,
so please take it off a speakertay what I'm gonna
put you on hold. We'll come back to you in
a minute. Let's go grab Jim online three out of Medford, Oregan. Hey, Jim,
you're on go for it.
Speaker 9 (18:53):
Hey Tom, how are you? I just well, first one
in the comment that that guy Becau's Betty you talked
to earlier. The disabled vet even really benefits from that
program that guy was in.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
No kid, those two calls got to go together, don't they.
Speaker 9 (19:10):
Yeah, I was thinking about that guy. I was too bad,
he's so far away from there. That would have been
a great thing for him to be able to get into. Anyway,
my question was or not my question, But you want
to know about forty four magnums. I've got two of
them at three fifty seven h forty four Magnum Smith
(19:30):
and Wesson that I really liked the twenty nine. It
shoots awesome, It works great. I've never had a problem
more than I've had it for a pro probably ten
years or more. It pretty much shoots everything wonderful. I
went shooting through in the the Grange gallon size jugs
(19:51):
of water. That's great to watch them cloath.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Oh man, it makes it. You don't want to be
too close to it, because if you are, you need
a raincoat because you'll get wet.
Speaker 9 (20:00):
I hear that. And then the other one is the
the Ruger Anaconda internal. Oh my god, I love that one.
And so if that thing is so sweet it's so
the tolerances are so tight.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
It's like.
Speaker 9 (20:17):
You're familiar with the Henry's rifles and stuff out tight
their tolerances, right, It's like it's like that. It's just
it's wonderful. As a matter of fact, I have a
Henry's forty four magnum rifle called the Black. It's like
it's like the Golden Golden Rifle.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
But oh yeah, you like the Golden Boy. And you know,
a lever action in forty four magnum is so much
fun to shoot.
Speaker 9 (20:41):
It is. It works great. I have no complaints about it.
It is a matter. Well I'm a I'm sixty and
two fifty so and I have big ends, and so
the kick back on all of it isn't isn't that bad?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Body? Right?
Speaker 9 (20:56):
Yeah, but it's they're wonderful guns that should for any
but watch those kind of weapons.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
So it sounds to me like you primarily shoot those
at the range. That's I mean, these are range guns
and just fun guns for you. Right.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (21:11):
I like high but I don't know myself because I've
never been I never really acquired to take us for
getting meat that much. I like help, but that's about it.
So I pretty much do range stuff and then an
average for my concealed weapons and whatnot.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Sounds good. Look, I got a scowed here because I'm
up against my clock, and I appreciate the call. Good stuff.
Talking about the fourth fore Magnum, you mentioned game meet,
we just had God, yeah, we had moose spaghetti last night.
Old freight train. He's being used everywhere, So we had
moose spaghetti. We had moose tacos. Anything we can put
(21:49):
a ground meat into we're using. We did a lot
of ground meat on that moose, and then a few steaks,
but not a lot. And we didn't do any roast
this time, just two of us. Hard to make use
of a big roast and out of a mood to
get a big roast. Hey, when we come back, I'll
talk a little bit about forty four magnum and me
carrying one in Alaska for bear protection and kind of
(22:12):
the reactions of some of the other folks around me.
They were, well, they weren't it perhaps, let's just put
it that way. We'll also talk about shooting at long range.
Can you do it? How do you do it? How
can you learn to hit targets at one thousand yards
or even farther. Don't go far first. One of the
(22:37):
hot topics these days it's long range shooting. Now, I
want to make the distinction between long range shooting and
long range honey. And we'll get into that in just
a minute, because our next guest, it's my friend Ryan Kleeckner,
and we agree on this. I mean, you shoot long range,
you bang steel out there. You're a former special Forces
sniper dude who's done all that stuff and how you
(22:57):
teach it. And by the way, you're also an attorney
who does all sorts of stuff in the gun space.
But let's talk for a minute about long range shooting
versus hunting.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Okay, I like to draw the line at if your
biggest risk is missing the target your long range shooting,
and if your biggest risk is spooking the animal you're hunting.
I don't think the two should be mixed.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I like it. Now people will say, okay, so what's
the number, what's the range? Where you say, okay, that's
too far from me. How do you here's the question,
how do you figure that out? I love this.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
This is the best lawyer answer I give on a
regular basis. It is it depends it depends, of course,
your skill. It depends on the caliber and rifle.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
You have and the situation. No, let me give you
the situation. This year, I did not get my mule. There.
There was a very nice buck and he was three
hundred yards. That's point blank for the rifle I'm shooting,
and I can hit a target a three hundred yards
not any problem at all. So the distance was fine.
But I'm on this side hill and I am trying
(23:59):
to get my shooting sticks in a rest and I
am literally sliding down the hill and oh yeah, he's
trotting across the face of a hill over there, so
he's moving and I'm sliding on my butt and it
can't get steady, and it makes me. I said, you
know what, this is just not the day to take
the shot. Of course, I know you like to get close.
(24:20):
I do.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Like I grew up bow hunting. I grew up bere
bow bow hunting. We didn't even have sights in our bows.
I think the challenge for me in the fun is
the getting close. Two hundred yards is really far from
me to want to be shooting at an animal. And
it's not because I don't have the skill to do it. It's
just not the hunt I like. But I'm okay with
(24:41):
other people having different types of hunts. As long as
you're respecting the animal, you're making as humane of a
shot as possible, and you're harvesting the meat for yourself
and your family. Who am I to complain?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Oh? There you go? All right. So long range shooting,
which really I would say is long range competition for
the most part, art is hugely popular these days, and
I would say it's because it's hard.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Very true. Yeah, there's a lot going into long range
shooting that attracts people to it. And unfortunately, though, I
think that so many people are misled by this mystical
idea of what I like to call this magic sniper
dust that you can sprinkle on a rifle. Is I
think people are attracted to that. I think people are
attracted to the challenge. People are attracted to the figuring
(25:30):
out wind and moving targets and what you know, minutes
and mills and adjusting scopes and different environmental effects. That's fun.
We like shooting, so of course we like to get
into the nuances of this and in this long range
shooting competitions or even just going out to the range yourself.
You get a chance to work with all that, and
it's neat, and it's neat to fail, learn why you failed,
(25:53):
and get better next time.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
How much of it is gear and how much of
it is skill.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
There is a certain amount of gear required. You're not
going to be successful at long range shooting with a
nineteen eleven pistol, for example. You're going to need a rifle.
You're going to need a rifle scope. If you want
to get into some of the things that we cover
in my books, you can do it with iron sights,
but I talk about scopes, and you're going to need
(26:22):
a scope that adjusts what it's supposed to adjust. So
if you turn the turrets and you adjusted up one
mill for example, the scope needs to adjust one mill
or else you're you're not going to have fruitful results with.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
What you're doing. Am I hearing you say that not
all scopes do that?
Speaker 4 (26:42):
That is correct? Yeah, And less expensive scopes don't do that. Now,
you don't need the most expensive scope, but you need
a good enough scope to get what you're doing. My
advice is usually spend more on the scope than the rifle.
Modern rifles shoot really well. We've kind of figured out
how to make good guns now amazing. Yeah, And I
think a used rifle can be sold better than a
(27:02):
use scope too. So I'd rather someone stretch their budget
a little on the scope and then maybe buy a
gun underneath what they think their abilities might be. Shoot
the snot out of the gun, and when they're ready
to upgrade, they could sell a used gun fairly easily
and then put a nicer, newer, better gun underneath that
same scope. The opposite. It's really hard to do. Nobody
(27:26):
wants to buy a used scope. You're kind of stuck
with that scope once you buy it. So get a
nice scope, get a good enough rifle, shoot the heck
out of it. And even if you do shoot so
much that you shoot the barrel out of a rifle,
which by the way, I hear people talk about being
worried about all the time, and hardly anyone shoots stuff
to actually do that. But if you do wear the
gun out, great, Now you get yourself a nicer, newer gun,
(27:49):
and the same scope because you bought a good enough
one is going to be just fine for that rifle too.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
All right, So you wrote the book Long Range Shooting
Handbook and now we have the brand new Advanced long
Range Shooting. What's the difference in what makes it advanced?
Speaker 4 (28:03):
Great question. Chapter three of the Advanced Long Range Shooting
Book is titled, this book isn't advanced?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Wit Wait wait, wait, that doesn't sound like that's a
truth and advertising thing here.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, And I even started
that that chapter starts. I even say something of the
effect of wait, wait, wait before you flip back to
the cover, to make sure that you know for sure
that word advanced appears on the cover. Here's what I mean.
So this book took ten years. So I wrote the
Long Iss Shooting Handbook almost ten years ago. In February
of next year, it will be ten years ago. And
I promised this fall one book, and it took me
forever to write it. And one reason is I had
(28:39):
lots of things going on in life. But the other
reason was I kind of felt like a fraud for
the advanced stuff. I'm kind of the basics guy. I'm
the guy that says, sure, the spin of the Earth
technically affects your bullet at distance, but you need to
stop thinking about that because you're going to miss the
shot by making a bad shot more than you are
by not calculating the spin of the Earth. So stop
worrying about the new ones is here's the basics, Go
(29:02):
enjoy them, Go shoot. So when I came to the
advanced stuff, there were years tom where I was like, oh,
what do I call advance? So how do I approach
the advanced stuff? You know, I like to be the
guy that breaks this seemingly complicated stuff down simply that
doesn't jive with the word advanced. And so I finally
realized that I could take all the advanced topics like
(29:25):
engaging moving targets or things like aerodynamic jump that most
people I talk to you don't realize what happens. That's
the vertical change in your bullet's impact to do to
sideways wind. So yes, like a wind from the right
can actually affect your bullet up and down down. Getting
into those nuanced topics are advanced, but I approach them
(29:46):
in a simple way. And I kind of end that
chapter by saying, my goal is for you to finish
this book and say to yourself that wasn't so advanced
because you understood it. And if it's the opposite is true.
If you finish the book, and say, wow, that was
some advanced stuff than I think I failed.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
So we could agree that the information in advanced long
range shooting is actually information that's out there. There are
other ways to get it, but what you've done is
put it together in a way that's comprehensible and maybe
in a structured way that people can start here and
work their way through and go, Okay, what's the next
thing I need to know?
Speaker 4 (30:22):
That's really fair. You know, there's a few things in
here that I think are my unique way of looking
at things, but I can't prove that no one else
has ever thought that way before. And there's a couple
of terms I introduce that other instructors have surely taught before,
But I say, we have never agreed on a term
for this, so I propose this term. Let's just use
this term for here. So there's a few of those
(30:43):
tet points. But you know, the rest of this is
things that exist, things that people know that exist, like
a wind. For example, in the first book, I had
a chapter on wind. One chapter, and being honestly critical
of myself, I've never taught wind well because I ut
it with the mindset of you kind of got to
see it. I use the example of the movie The Matrix.
(31:05):
You know, you got to keep practicing. You gotta keep
looking at it. You gotta look at the mirage. You
gotta see what the bullet does. You gotta do this,
and eventually someday it's going to click and you're going
to just see the matrix. You're gonna see the wind.
And that's a horrible way to teach.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
It doesn't sound very helpful. I got to tell you.
And so I would.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
I would practice with students and I'd say, well, you
could do this formula and you could do this, but
the wind's not going to you're not going to know it,
and so here's a place to start, but you got
to practice. And I just never liked it. So this
book has four chapters on wind. For example, I break
it down into chunks, like one chapter is just how
to measure the magnitude, the direction, and the speed of
the wind, And I spend a whole chapter on how
you can use tools and what you can do and
(31:43):
get the net effect. And then I get into a
whole nother chapter of this concept of gun number, where
instead of making a wind call based off the speed,
you're figuring something out about your rifle first, and you
kind of come at it backwards. So and I just
I try to explain it and give examples so that
people can apply it to their shooting.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
All right, here's a question, and well, let me back up.
You talk about coming up with different terms and all.
What you're describing is what I've seen on the range.
A lot of times with instructors is one instructor is
telling a student something and it's not working, and the
next instructor comes over and tells them the same thing
but in a different way, and all of a sudden,
(32:21):
it's like, oh, I get that now.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Yeah, I think that's fair. I don't want to get
into the nuance of it because I don't want it
to sound complicated. But have you heard have you ever
used the term gun number to figure out a mile
prower gun number?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
That's new to me.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
So I won't explain what it is, not to try
and hide the ball, but because it's probably too much.
But the concept is instead of figuring out your ballistic profile,
what your bullet does, and then doing some calculation based
on the miles power of wind in the distance and
getting the drift, you can use ballistic software to tweak
the numbers to find out at what wind speed your
gun deviates about a tenth of a mint per hundred yards,
(33:01):
and you can actually find that number. And when you
find that number, you can say, oh, this is an
I have a five million hour gun, for example, and
that tells you that in the five million hour wind,
your gun and your bullet combination drift about a tenth
of a mail per hundred yards. So sure enough, you
walk out, you see a five million hour wind and
you're shooting at four hundred yards, you know it's a
point four mil hold because it's a tenth of a
(33:24):
mail per hundred and it's a ten million hour wind,
you know it's a point eight mail hold. It's a
really slick quick way, and it's kind of the new
vo way to look at wind calling for guns. And
I explain all this, how to calculate it, how to
use it, to get some practicals. But the problem with
gun number is only works to a certain distance because
we're making a linear change off of something that's an
(33:45):
exponential change.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
It's more and more and more.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
And so for example, I found and this is what
other people have seen too, but gun number really only
works about double the distance for your gun numbers. You
have a gun number of five, I'm kind of in
my head pretending that's five hundred yards. It only works
out to about one thousand yards. Double that five hundred yards.
After that it really falls off. And after that, if
(34:08):
you reduce the gun number by one digit, it seems
to work again. And now other people have come across that,
but I've never seen it formalize. So in the book,
I write, I'm going to propose some new terms. Let's
propose a term called gun number threshold. I'm going to
call that double distance the gun number threshold, because that's
the limit to which gun number works. And then I
(34:29):
go through and explain.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
That you do what you do understand how yeeky this
sounds right?
Speaker 4 (34:33):
Yeah, of course, But if you're getting in a long
red shooting, this is the stuff that you need to know.
And I have these pages and pages and charts and graphs,
and I try to explain it simply. So I apologize
if we got in the weeds. But that's an example.
I love it proposing new terms because I can't talk
through it without calling it something. So I need to say,
(34:54):
let's call it this. For the sake of this conversation,
and then I go through and give examples on those things,
and so hopefully that makes people think of calling for
wind in an entirely different way than they've ever thought
about it before.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I'm reminded of my daughter who got her undergraduate degree
in recording industry at Middle Tennessee State, and she said, Yeah,
we had one class where we had to learn terms
of how to describe sounds. Yeah. Yeah, you got to
have a vocabulary for what does that sound? I might
hear it? Well, how do I describe it? That's a
lot of what you're doing here. So, okay, we've got
(35:27):
a thing here where we've got to find some way
to communicate on this. Correct interesting. Okay. The book is
Advanced Long Range Shootings by Ryan Cleetner. It's available in Amazon,
available in paperback and in kindle, And you can also
do the I guess the packaged deal of getting both
of them.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
I think you can, and in a few weeks I'll
have autographed copies available on a website. But right now,
Amazon's the place.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
To get it. Okay, what's your website, Ryanclacktner dot com. Okay,
and that is Collectnor with a c just for people
to know there you go very good. Well, I mean
it's great fun. And the first time that somebody hits
a piece of steel out of a thousand yards or
beyond and you get that huge smile, it's like, Wow,
I did that. That is just so rewarding.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
I think you're exactly right. And if that anything can
be done by these books, it's to show people that
it's completely doable. This isn't something that is special only
to certain people. And I'm hoping that this encourages people
to go out and try it and get it done themselves.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Well as people are looking for their New year's resolution
or something new to do this year, maybe dipping their
toe into long range shooting. And there are a lot
of ranges around a lot of places you can do it.
Grab copies of both your books and they can start
that way. I love it, Ryan Tlactor, thanks so much.
That was a fun interview. Ryan of course is just
(36:47):
a fun guy to be around. Obviously incredibly a good shooter.
You don't get to do Special Forces sniper work without
being a really good shooter, but notes how to teach,
and he's just an habit hunter and as I say,
also and an attorney in the aviation or not aviation
in the firearms world. I've run in back and forth
through an aviation and fireworms, and I actually find there's
(37:09):
a lot of carryover, particularly when it comes to risk management,
and I talk about that. It's like, Okay, if this
doesn't feel right, maybe we shouldn't be doing it. We
have a thing in aviation. We call it get home
itis or get their itis. Same to you. It's basically
pushing aside your concerns, your safety concerns, because you feel
(37:31):
an urge to get there. If I don't take off now,
I know the weather's iffy, but if it don't take
off now, it's going to cause me an inconvenience. We
may have to stay overnight, we may have to on
and on and on. It's a mindset that you have
to be aware of and guard against. It's not exactly
complacency is something else, but in shooting in the farm's world,
(37:56):
we have mindsets that we have to watch out for,
complacency being one of the big ones. I've done this
a thousand times. You know, I'm okay doing this. Oh look, wow,
I just swept my buddy with the muzzle and I
didn't mean to because I wasn't focused. I had a
flight instructor when I was trying to get my private
(38:19):
pilot license many many years ago. He said something that
stuck with me because it goes across aviation and guns.
He said, when you are in a hurry, you are
in danger.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
When you're in a hurry around guns, you most certainly
are increasing the risk. I've heard from people who say, Yeah,
I was in a hurry leaving the range. I left
my gun on the bench and drove home without it. Whoa, whoa?
Take a minute, slow down, catch your breath, walk around. Look,
we call the dummy check. Did we leave anything on
(38:56):
the ground, did we leave anything laying around? Just things
like that. The mental aspect of this, I think is
not talked about a lot, but I think it's critical.
Whether it's self defense or recreational shooting, or storing guns
or anything else. The four rules of guns safety always apply.
You should know them, you should memorize them, you should
be able to recite them, and you should absolutely always
(39:19):
observe them. I'm looking at a story it's breaking right now,
and it reminds me we talk about safety, security, don't
outsource your safety being self reliant, and I realized that
(39:40):
self reliance is not convenient. It often isn't. It requires
more work on your part, more dollars on your part.
It's just inconvenience. Story right now is that San Francisco
power outage puts one hundred and thirty thousand in the
dark as self driving car service stops vehicles in the street.
(40:06):
At this time, we are unable to provide a precise
time frame for full restoration. Our power went out here
this week. We had massive windstorms, trees at, thousands of trees,
tens thousands of trees down everywhere. Our power went out
and was out at our house for fifty five hours.
(40:27):
It was called it two and a half days no electricity,
And while slightly inconvenient, I have a whole house generator.
It kicked on and ran. Why do I have a
whole house generator? Because I don't know. I'm either prepared
or paranoid. I don't know which it is. It didn't
(40:48):
really matter. I don't care. But we had lights, we
had hot water, We were able to continue and do
what we needed to do, and it ran just fine.
I come from hurricane country, I'm used to that. Why
I have a generator there. That's why I have a
generator here in the just in case I don't let
my gas tank in my car get below half. Ever.
(41:09):
Why is that Well, because if something happens and I
need to get away from wherever it is I am,
I have a half a tank, I can get one
hundred two undred miles away. So in our family, we
don't let our gas tanks get below half inconvenient. Yes,
it means I have to fill up more often. Just
make it part of your lifestyle. It's what you do.
(41:30):
I am the guy who takes responsibility for my safety
and the responsibility for my family's safety. They know that
I carry two flashlights, I carry a tournique, I carry gauze.
I have a full first aid kit in my car.
I have three fire extinguishers in my car. I have
(41:50):
two sleeping bags in my car. As I'm speaking to
you right now, because it's winter. What is the likelihood
of ever needing that? I don't know, but I dare
it's not zero. The chances are not zero. And if
you need them, you need them. It's a mindset thing.
You got to figure it out, you got to fish out. Okay,
this is what I do. This is I like this
(42:11):
game called whatever you want to do, whatever the mind
games you have to do to get yourself there. I
like being that person. I like my self image of
being the prepared person or being the one that people
count on, the one that oh, yeah, I've got an
extra flashlight for you because you didn't think ahead and
didn't have a flashlight with you when the power went
out for fifty five hours, And yeah, I carry a
(42:36):
gun or two. Why do you want to shoot somebody? No,
I don't want to shoot anybody. I also don't want
them to shoot me. Okay, I have no other way
of making them not shoot me. If somebody decides they're
going to shoot me or knife me or club me.
But if I have a gun, I have a way
of making them change their behavior. Don't want to shoot anybody.
(43:00):
I'm certainly willing to if that's what it takes to
protect me, keep them from hurting my family. It's really
a you equation. You have to figure out what works
for you. You have to figure out where you want
to be on the scale of depending upon somebody else
to take care of you, to provide your electricity, to
(43:22):
provide your safety, to provide your water, provide whatever, and
then what are you gonna do when that's not there?
Because sometimes it's not. I don't know. You got to
figure it out for yourself. If you want to join
me to talk about that, call me right now. We'll
get you on the after show. Call me a Tom
Talk gun. In the meantime, get out there, do it
little shop and buy something. Call your gun store. Say
what you got that you want to unload at a
(43:42):
good price. Right now, I'll make you a deal. Merry
Christmas to all of you. Will see on the backside. Okay,
be safe,
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Speaker 3 (00:31):
Hey, we're back with you here, Tom Gresham. It is
gun talk. We talk about guns around here, Surprise Price.
This is an interesting story and I'll get to the
callers in just a minute. In the US, if you
have a felony conviction, you are prohibited from owning a
gun for the rest of your life. Doesn't matter if
(00:54):
it was a white collar crime, it was an embezzlement,
tax evasion. Forty years ago, ye had no guns for life.
I've always thought that was wrong. I've always thought, you know,
once you have served your time, you paid your debt
to society, you should have all your rights back. Right, Well,
why would you not? Makes no sense? Doesn't seem American? Well,
(01:16):
people have started to challenge that, and right now the
move is to say, okay, well, if it's a nonviolent offense,
you should get your rights back. You should get your
gun rights back. I mean, you don't lose your First
Amendment rights, just your Second Amenment rights. And one of
the people who's been speaking out on this, and there
are multiple lawsuits challenging this right now, but one of
(01:37):
the people who's been speaking out on this is the
rapper turned country music star Jelly Roll, who of course
was served a sentence for robbery and drug convictions. And
he's saying, you know, I want to get my rights
back because I want to go hunting. You know, I
like to hunt. So he's been talking about this for
(01:59):
several weeks least that I've seen, and the idea was, well,
he would make a possibly a good spokesperson, somebody with
celebrity to get out there and challenge this. Well then
about three days ago, the governor of Tennessee pardoned him,
issued him a pardon, which is going to make it
(02:22):
possible for him to get his rights back. What's that
going to mean for everybody else who falls under this
somebody who did some kind of white collar crime maybe
did something even as a kid in charged as an adult.
And here's the thing I need you to understand. It
could be a misdemeanor conviction. It doesn't have to be
(02:42):
a felloty conviction. And all it has to be is
something that.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
You could.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Have served a year in prison for. That's the bit smark.
If you are sentenced but pardoned so you don't serve
a day in jail, you still lose your rights for
life because you could have gone to jail for a year.
You didn't. It was a misdemeanor conviction that could have
(03:14):
sent you to jail for a year. No you didn't,
but you still lose your rights for the rest of
your life. There's a lot of people got caught up
in that, a lot of people who are prohibited from
owning guns and exercising a constitutional right. We'll see how
(03:34):
it goes. We'll keep you posted on that. All right,
let's go to the phones. Let's line three. Eric has
been on hold for quite a while. Eric, Thank you
so much for calling in out of Minnesota. Welcome to
Gun Talk.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
Thank you, Tom, and thank you for your show. Is
so important. Just like what you were just talking about,
not only explaining our rights to citizens, but fighting for
them if you have a fantastic show.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Okay, before you go any further, my the email just
popped up and I am looking at a picture of
you with a gorgeous white tail buck. Tell me about this.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Oh, thank you? Yes heroes. New Hope Foundation is an
organization that takes blinded veterans, paralyzed veterans, mptees, and disabled
children for hunts, whether it be turkey fishing or deer hunt.
And this was I was grateful enough to be able
(04:30):
to come back a second year to get a chance
at hunting some white tail. And oddly enough, I know
other people have gone through things like this. I had
a chance at an eight pointer last year, all wined up.
The buck was just standing there and I got the
(04:50):
okay to pull the trigger and I heard a big
click because my forgot to rack her around. He said,
I have to bring you back next year. We can't
let this stand. And this year I got a bigger book.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
And yes, yes you do. Am I counting eleven points
on this guy. Yes, wow, he's huge too. By the way,
Oh you know what we did, we left out one
important thing. You're blind.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Yes, I'm one hundred percent blind. I was suffered while
I was blowing up a few times in a falluja Iraq,
but when I received a traumatic brain injury and it
took bull my eyes. But that hasn't stopped me from
my love of shooting, whether it be target or hunting
(05:46):
or going out and doing anything. And the foundation like
that assists in us. It's really kind of cool because
you're back to a team effort. I use a bog
pod or tripod, and then with an apparatus called a
snake look, which attaches a smartphone to the barrel of
(06:07):
the scope looking down the scope that I have a
spotter that can look at the phone there is lining
me up. And on this particular deer, it was one
forty five yards and it was not at a full run,
but it was at a trot, so I got it
on the move. I was pretty wow.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
So what is the spotter telling you? It's like left left, left,
left or something like that.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Yeah, and it all depends on Now I've gone turkey
hunting with him. Got a nice tom at sixty yards
with five hundred mossburg By nicknamed it a Tommy knocker,
by the way. But in that when it's like with turkeys.
He puts his finger on the back of my neck
(06:57):
and then moves up and down for elevation or depression
left or right, and then he just double taps back
of my neck and I can pull the trigger. In
this case, we were able to speak a little bit
dear hunting.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Of course, sure, because he's a little further away. Wow, well, congratulations,
that is amazing. And again, what is the name of
the organization.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
Heroes New Hope Foundation. They're out of Indiana, the Sullivan area.
And of course they got a Facebook page and a
website Heroesnew Hope dot org. They can find it. I
have a quick question also, if I.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
May, you bet you bet?
Speaker 5 (07:39):
I got my lovely bride a rugor Security three eighty
for her birthday because it has a light rack and
it's easier for because she had a Walter three eighty
and that was very hard for her to rack. Okay,
I would like and she would like to equip it
with a laser and light and maybe a dot. And
(08:00):
my concern was some of the red dots may be
a little heavy to throw it out of battery or
out of cycle on that slide. I would appreciate any suggestions,
whether it be a stream light deal r for the
laser light combination, or a decent red dot to use
on there for her that she would like, and concerns,
(08:22):
Like I said, nothing too heavy to throw it out
of cycle, and nothing silly with batteries mounted on the
bottom side so you have to take it off to
change batteries or anything like that. But any suggestions, I'd
be appreciated.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
And I am assuming at this point she's not carrying it.
This is like home defense.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
Rig correct around the around the yard. We live out
in the rural area, so for the house.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
And the art, because frankly, it's a lot of stuff
to hang onto a small pistol. Yes, are you talking
about a light, a laser and a red dot or
whatever combination be Yeah, I'm going to make a suggestion here,
just going to throw this out. I find the laser
and red dot to be redundant, unnecessary, and if you
(09:09):
got the red dot, you're good to go. I would say,
go with a small light and then probably honestly, any
of the smaller red dots are going to weigh an ounce,
you know, anything with a chichikon, which is expensive on
down to the SIGs to the crimson trace to any
of them. They're hall of signs. They're all have one
(09:32):
that is smaller, smaller footprint, and should work on that.
But they really are all about then the one ounce
slightly more. I don't think it's going to cause a
problem with functionality.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Okay, well take that into consideration. All right, good man,
appreciate your so so much, Michelle and Jim and you
and everything you guys do. Really appreciate. And man, I
couldn't be more tickled pink to get a deer the size.
I'm tired up.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I meant to tell you people need to trust me
on this. Anybody would be tickle peaked with this buck.
It is huge, eleven point white. Yah, that's gorgeous air.
Congratulations and thank you. That is a super arrange report.
Take this into the break our number eight sixty six
Talk Gun or Tom Talk Gun. Join us.
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inventory today at durysguns dot com. Ky y'all, this is
a W. R. Hawkins from brid Bart News. Welcome back
to gun Talk. Well. Well, well let's talk about well
(13:13):
what do you think guns and optics and AMO and
pretty much everything else. I mentioned the deal with Trump
he is going to get marijuana rescheduled from a Schedule one.
I think they're Schedule three. I'm not real familiar with
the whole deal, basically trying to decriminalize marijuana. The problem
(13:35):
is a lot of people who use marijuana. Look, you
don't have to have a conviction. Just if you're a
user of marijuana. You are prohibited by law from holding
a gun. A lot of people don't know that, and
it actually asks that on the forty four to seventy
three form when you are filling it out. But even
if you're not buying a gun, you're not supposed to
own a gun if you are even a recreational user.
(13:58):
Even and here's the thing, people Understan even if it's medical,
use medical marijuana. You got a medical marijuana card. Sorry, no,
no guns for you. Should it be that way? Probably
not anymore than if you drink alcohol. But that's what
it is. So is this going to change that? Is
(14:18):
that going to take this? No, it's not. I mean
the short answer is no. Don't think that this is
going to change anything, at least not for now. But
there are I think multiple at least one, but there
may be several lawsuits working their way through the courts.
About this very thing, challenging the law itself. That's kind
(14:42):
of where we are. You'd love to say, well, let's
just change the law. Here's the problem. Even if the
Democrats loved the idea, if it is introduced by a Republican,
they will vote no in the Senate. You may have
(15:04):
enough of a majority in the House to get something past,
but you can't get through the Senate because of the
rule you have to have sixty votes to break a filibuster,
and they'll just say no, it doesn't happen. Even if
it's the greatest thing in the world and they love
the idea, if it comes from Donald Trump, they'll vote
no and they'll crush it. So that's where we are.
(15:26):
So look, that's political reality. You got. It's just numbers.
It's all it is to math. That being the case
a lot of these things, we are going to have
to get them done in the courts, because if we
can get that done, then we don't have to have
a vote in the House and Senate. You don't have
to go through Congress for those if we can get
(15:48):
the Supreme Court, and that's where it always ends up
to say, of course, you can't lose your constitutional rights
because you use marijuana or you kid me. Of course,
you can't lose your constitutional rights to keep bare arms
for life because of a misdemeanor conviction forty years ago
(16:15):
that didn't put you in jail, that you could have
been sentenced to a year in jail. That's ridiculous. Supreme
Court should take those cases and should rule on those cases.
The Supreme Court, because we're never going to get it
through Congress right now, should and I certainly think they
(16:38):
will take a so called assault weapon case. Laws which
ban the ownership or the sale of regular old rifles.
Semi automatic rifles been around. The semi automatic has been
around for one hundred and twenty years. Nothing new about it,
(16:59):
nothing spectacular about it, just goes bang one time when
you pull the trigger. And yet some places ban them
and more places, more states are trying to ban those guns.
Super popular, ubiquitous, even in common use. Certainly so, how
(17:21):
in the world are they banned? Well, because they did it,
and they will continue to do it until somebody tells
them they can't. And the other people who could tell
them they can't would be Congress, which may or may
not have an impact, but it's not going to happen. Look,
Congress is not going to remove the ban, the state
bans on semi automatic firearms. The Supreme Court can though,
(17:47):
the Supreme Court can come in and say no, that's unconstitutional.
That is a violation of these people's constitutional rights. It's
a violation of the Second Amendment, which is the right
of to keep the people to keep him bear arms
shall not be infringed the people being us. Now, we
(18:12):
do have an interesting thing going on right now, which is, Okay,
who are the people? Is it anybody in the US
or is it only US citizens? Interesting? Let's go talk
with Matthew on line five. He's in Metie, Louisiana.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
Hey Matthew, Oh Tom, and first, Merry Christmas to you
all the gun Talk crew.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
And then I have a question.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
All right, hold on, hold on, Matthew, Hold on, Matthew.
I know you were told not to use the speaker,
so please take it off a speakertay what I'm gonna
put you on hold. We'll come back to you in
a minute. Let's go grab Jim online three out of Medford, Oregan. Hey, Jim,
you're on go for it.
Speaker 9 (18:53):
Hey Tom, how are you? I just well, first one
in the comment that that guy Becau's Betty you talked
to earlier. The disabled vet even really benefits from that
program that guy was in.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
No kid, those two calls got to go together, don't they.
Speaker 9 (19:10):
Yeah, I was thinking about that guy. I was too bad,
he's so far away from there. That would have been
a great thing for him to be able to get into. Anyway,
my question was or not my question, But you want
to know about forty four magnums. I've got two of
them at three fifty seven h forty four Magnum Smith
(19:30):
and Wesson that I really liked the twenty nine. It
shoots awesome, It works great. I've never had a problem
more than I've had it for a pro probably ten
years or more. It pretty much shoots everything wonderful. I
went shooting through in the the Grange gallon size jugs
(19:51):
of water. That's great to watch them cloath.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Oh man, it makes it. You don't want to be
too close to it, because if you are, you need
a raincoat because you'll get wet.
Speaker 9 (20:00):
I hear that. And then the other one is the
the Ruger Anaconda internal. Oh my god, I love that one.
And so if that thing is so sweet it's so
the tolerances are so tight.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
It's like.
Speaker 9 (20:17):
You're familiar with the Henry's rifles and stuff out tight
their tolerances, right, It's like it's like that. It's just
it's wonderful. As a matter of fact, I have a
Henry's forty four magnum rifle called the Black. It's like
it's like the Golden Golden Rifle.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
But oh yeah, you like the Golden Boy. And you know,
a lever action in forty four magnum is so much
fun to shoot.
Speaker 9 (20:41):
It is. It works great. I have no complaints about it.
It is a matter. Well I'm a I'm sixty and
two fifty so and I have big ends, and so
the kick back on all of it isn't isn't that bad?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Body? Right?
Speaker 9 (20:56):
Yeah, but it's they're wonderful guns that should for any
but watch those kind of weapons.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
So it sounds to me like you primarily shoot those
at the range. That's I mean, these are range guns
and just fun guns for you. Right.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (21:11):
I like high but I don't know myself because I've
never been I never really acquired to take us for
getting meat that much. I like help, but that's about it.
So I pretty much do range stuff and then an
average for my concealed weapons and whatnot.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Sounds good. Look, I got a scowed here because I'm
up against my clock, and I appreciate the call. Good stuff.
Talking about the fourth fore Magnum, you mentioned game meet,
we just had God, yeah, we had moose spaghetti last night.
Old freight train. He's being used everywhere, So we had
moose spaghetti. We had moose tacos. Anything we can put
(21:49):
a ground meat into we're using. We did a lot
of ground meat on that moose, and then a few steaks,
but not a lot. And we didn't do any roast
this time, just two of us. Hard to make use
of a big roast and out of a mood to
get a big roast. Hey, when we come back, I'll
talk a little bit about forty four magnum and me
carrying one in Alaska for bear protection and kind of
(22:12):
the reactions of some of the other folks around me.
They were, well, they weren't it perhaps, let's just put
it that way. We'll also talk about shooting at long range.
Can you do it? How do you do it? How
can you learn to hit targets at one thousand yards
or even farther. Don't go far first. One of the
(22:37):
hot topics these days it's long range shooting. Now, I
want to make the distinction between long range shooting and
long range honey. And we'll get into that in just
a minute, because our next guest, it's my friend Ryan Kleeckner,
and we agree on this. I mean, you shoot long range,
you bang steel out there. You're a former special Forces
sniper dude who's done all that stuff and how you
(22:57):
teach it. And by the way, you're also an attorney
who does all sorts of stuff in the gun space.
But let's talk for a minute about long range shooting
versus hunting.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Okay, I like to draw the line at if your
biggest risk is missing the target your long range shooting,
and if your biggest risk is spooking the animal you're hunting.
I don't think the two should be mixed.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I like it. Now people will say, okay, so what's
the number, what's the range? Where you say, okay, that's
too far from me. How do you here's the question,
how do you figure that out? I love this.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
This is the best lawyer answer I give on a
regular basis. It is it depends it depends, of course,
your skill. It depends on the caliber and rifle.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
You have and the situation. No, let me give you
the situation. This year, I did not get my mule. There.
There was a very nice buck and he was three
hundred yards. That's point blank for the rifle I'm shooting,
and I can hit a target a three hundred yards
not any problem at all. So the distance was fine.
But I'm on this side hill and I am trying
(23:59):
to get my shooting sticks in a rest and I
am literally sliding down the hill and oh yeah, he's
trotting across the face of a hill over there, so
he's moving and I'm sliding on my butt and it
can't get steady, and it makes me. I said, you
know what, this is just not the day to take
the shot. Of course, I know you like to get close.
(24:20):
I do.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Like I grew up bow hunting. I grew up bere
bow bow hunting. We didn't even have sights in our bows.
I think the challenge for me in the fun is
the getting close. Two hundred yards is really far from
me to want to be shooting at an animal. And
it's not because I don't have the skill to do it. It's
just not the hunt I like. But I'm okay with
(24:41):
other people having different types of hunts. As long as
you're respecting the animal, you're making as humane of a
shot as possible, and you're harvesting the meat for yourself
and your family. Who am I to complain?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Oh? There you go? All right. So long range shooting,
which really I would say is long range competition for
the most part, art is hugely popular these days, and
I would say it's because it's hard.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Very true. Yeah, there's a lot going into long range
shooting that attracts people to it. And unfortunately, though, I
think that so many people are misled by this mystical
idea of what I like to call this magic sniper
dust that you can sprinkle on a rifle. Is I
think people are attracted to that. I think people are
attracted to the challenge. People are attracted to the figuring
(25:30):
out wind and moving targets and what you know, minutes
and mills and adjusting scopes and different environmental effects. That's fun.
We like shooting, so of course we like to get
into the nuances of this and in this long range
shooting competitions or even just going out to the range yourself.
You get a chance to work with all that, and
it's neat, and it's neat to fail, learn why you failed,
(25:53):
and get better next time.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
How much of it is gear and how much of
it is skill.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
There is a certain amount of gear required. You're not
going to be successful at long range shooting with a
nineteen eleven pistol, for example. You're going to need a rifle.
You're going to need a rifle scope. If you want
to get into some of the things that we cover
in my books, you can do it with iron sights,
but I talk about scopes, and you're going to need
(26:22):
a scope that adjusts what it's supposed to adjust. So
if you turn the turrets and you adjusted up one
mill for example, the scope needs to adjust one mill
or else you're you're not going to have fruitful results with.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
What you're doing. Am I hearing you say that not
all scopes do that?
Speaker 4 (26:42):
That is correct? Yeah, And less expensive scopes don't do that. Now,
you don't need the most expensive scope, but you need
a good enough scope to get what you're doing. My
advice is usually spend more on the scope than the rifle.
Modern rifles shoot really well. We've kind of figured out
how to make good guns now amazing. Yeah, And I
think a used rifle can be sold better than a
(27:02):
use scope too. So I'd rather someone stretch their budget
a little on the scope and then maybe buy a
gun underneath what they think their abilities might be. Shoot
the snot out of the gun, and when they're ready
to upgrade, they could sell a used gun fairly easily
and then put a nicer, newer, better gun underneath that
same scope. The opposite. It's really hard to do. Nobody
(27:26):
wants to buy a used scope. You're kind of stuck
with that scope once you buy it. So get a
nice scope, get a good enough rifle, shoot the heck
out of it. And even if you do shoot so
much that you shoot the barrel out of a rifle,
which by the way, I hear people talk about being
worried about all the time, and hardly anyone shoots stuff
to actually do that. But if you do wear the
gun out, great, Now you get yourself a nicer, newer gun,
(27:49):
and the same scope because you bought a good enough
one is going to be just fine for that rifle too.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
All right, So you wrote the book Long Range Shooting
Handbook and now we have the brand new Advanced long
Range Shooting. What's the difference in what makes it advanced?
Speaker 4 (28:03):
Great question. Chapter three of the Advanced Long Range Shooting
Book is titled, this book isn't advanced?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Wit Wait wait, wait, that doesn't sound like that's a
truth and advertising thing here.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, And I even started
that that chapter starts. I even say something of the
effect of wait, wait, wait before you flip back to
the cover, to make sure that you know for sure
that word advanced appears on the cover. Here's what I mean.
So this book took ten years. So I wrote the
Long Iss Shooting Handbook almost ten years ago. In February
of next year, it will be ten years ago. And
I promised this fall one book, and it took me
forever to write it. And one reason is I had
(28:39):
lots of things going on in life. But the other
reason was I kind of felt like a fraud for
the advanced stuff. I'm kind of the basics guy. I'm
the guy that says, sure, the spin of the Earth
technically affects your bullet at distance, but you need to
stop thinking about that because you're going to miss the
shot by making a bad shot more than you are
by not calculating the spin of the Earth. So stop
worrying about the new ones is here's the basics, Go
(29:02):
enjoy them, Go shoot. So when I came to the
advanced stuff, there were years tom where I was like, oh,
what do I call advance? So how do I approach
the advanced stuff? You know, I like to be the
guy that breaks this seemingly complicated stuff down simply that
doesn't jive with the word advanced. And so I finally
realized that I could take all the advanced topics like
(29:25):
engaging moving targets or things like aerodynamic jump that most
people I talk to you don't realize what happens. That's
the vertical change in your bullet's impact to do to
sideways wind. So yes, like a wind from the right
can actually affect your bullet up and down down. Getting
into those nuanced topics are advanced, but I approach them
(29:46):
in a simple way. And I kind of end that
chapter by saying, my goal is for you to finish
this book and say to yourself that wasn't so advanced
because you understood it. And if it's the opposite is true.
If you finish the book, and say, wow, that was
some advanced stuff than I think I failed.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
So we could agree that the information in advanced long
range shooting is actually information that's out there. There are
other ways to get it, but what you've done is
put it together in a way that's comprehensible and maybe
in a structured way that people can start here and
work their way through and go, Okay, what's the next
thing I need to know?
Speaker 4 (30:22):
That's really fair. You know, there's a few things in
here that I think are my unique way of looking
at things, but I can't prove that no one else
has ever thought that way before. And there's a couple
of terms I introduce that other instructors have surely taught before,
But I say, we have never agreed on a term
for this, so I propose this term. Let's just use
this term for here. So there's a few of those
(30:43):
tet points. But you know, the rest of this is
things that exist, things that people know that exist, like
a wind. For example, in the first book, I had
a chapter on wind. One chapter, and being honestly critical
of myself, I've never taught wind well because I ut
it with the mindset of you kind of got to
see it. I use the example of the movie The Matrix.
(31:05):
You know, you got to keep practicing. You gotta keep
looking at it. You gotta look at the mirage. You
gotta see what the bullet does. You gotta do this,
and eventually someday it's going to click and you're going
to just see the matrix. You're gonna see the wind.
And that's a horrible way to teach.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
It doesn't sound very helpful. I got to tell you.
And so I would.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
I would practice with students and I'd say, well, you
could do this formula and you could do this, but
the wind's not going to you're not going to know it,
and so here's a place to start, but you got
to practice. And I just never liked it. So this
book has four chapters on wind. For example, I break
it down into chunks, like one chapter is just how
to measure the magnitude, the direction, and the speed of
the wind, And I spend a whole chapter on how
you can use tools and what you can do and
(31:43):
get the net effect. And then I get into a
whole nother chapter of this concept of gun number, where
instead of making a wind call based off the speed,
you're figuring something out about your rifle first, and you
kind of come at it backwards. So and I just
I try to explain it and give examples so that
people can apply it to their shooting.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
All right, here's a question, and well, let me back up.
You talk about coming up with different terms and all.
What you're describing is what I've seen on the range.
A lot of times with instructors is one instructor is
telling a student something and it's not working, and the
next instructor comes over and tells them the same thing
but in a different way, and all of a sudden,
(32:21):
it's like, oh, I get that now.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Yeah, I think that's fair. I don't want to get
into the nuance of it because I don't want it
to sound complicated. But have you heard have you ever
used the term gun number to figure out a mile
prower gun number?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
That's new to me.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
So I won't explain what it is, not to try
and hide the ball, but because it's probably too much.
But the concept is instead of figuring out your ballistic profile,
what your bullet does, and then doing some calculation based
on the miles power of wind in the distance and
getting the drift, you can use ballistic software to tweak
the numbers to find out at what wind speed your
gun deviates about a tenth of a mint per hundred yards,
(33:01):
and you can actually find that number. And when you
find that number, you can say, oh, this is an
I have a five million hour gun, for example, and
that tells you that in the five million hour wind,
your gun and your bullet combination drift about a tenth
of a mail per hundred yards. So sure enough, you
walk out, you see a five million hour wind and
you're shooting at four hundred yards, you know it's a
point four mil hold because it's a tenth of a
(33:24):
mail per hundred and it's a ten million hour wind,
you know it's a point eight mail hold. It's a
really slick quick way, and it's kind of the new
vo way to look at wind calling for guns. And
I explain all this, how to calculate it, how to
use it, to get some practicals. But the problem with
gun number is only works to a certain distance because
we're making a linear change off of something that's an
(33:45):
exponential change.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
It's more and more and more.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
And so for example, I found and this is what
other people have seen too, but gun number really only
works about double the distance for your gun numbers. You
have a gun number of five, I'm kind of in
my head pretending that's five hundred yards. It only works
out to about one thousand yards. Double that five hundred yards.
After that it really falls off. And after that, if
(34:08):
you reduce the gun number by one digit, it seems
to work again. And now other people have come across that,
but I've never seen it formalize. So in the book,
I write, I'm going to propose some new terms. Let's
propose a term called gun number threshold. I'm going to
call that double distance the gun number threshold, because that's
the limit to which gun number works. And then I
(34:29):
go through and explain.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
That you do what you do understand how yeeky this
sounds right?
Speaker 4 (34:33):
Yeah, of course, But if you're getting in a long
red shooting, this is the stuff that you need to know.
And I have these pages and pages and charts and graphs,
and I try to explain it simply. So I apologize
if we got in the weeds. But that's an example.
I love it proposing new terms because I can't talk
through it without calling it something. So I need to say,
(34:54):
let's call it this. For the sake of this conversation,
and then I go through and give examples on those things,
and so hopefully that makes people think of calling for
wind in an entirely different way than they've ever thought
about it before.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I'm reminded of my daughter who got her undergraduate degree
in recording industry at Middle Tennessee State, and she said, Yeah,
we had one class where we had to learn terms
of how to describe sounds. Yeah. Yeah, you got to
have a vocabulary for what does that sound? I might
hear it? Well, how do I describe it? That's a
lot of what you're doing here. So, okay, we've got
(35:27):
a thing here where we've got to find some way
to communicate on this. Correct interesting. Okay. The book is
Advanced Long Range Shootings by Ryan Cleetner. It's available in Amazon,
available in paperback and in kindle, And you can also
do the I guess the packaged deal of getting both
of them.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
I think you can, and in a few weeks I'll
have autographed copies available on a website. But right now,
Amazon's the place.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
To get it. Okay, what's your website, Ryanclacktner dot com. Okay,
and that is Collectnor with a c just for people
to know there you go very good. Well, I mean
it's great fun. And the first time that somebody hits
a piece of steel out of a thousand yards or
beyond and you get that huge smile, it's like, Wow,
I did that. That is just so rewarding.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
I think you're exactly right. And if that anything can
be done by these books, it's to show people that
it's completely doable. This isn't something that is special only
to certain people. And I'm hoping that this encourages people
to go out and try it and get it done themselves.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Well as people are looking for their New year's resolution
or something new to do this year, maybe dipping their
toe into long range shooting. And there are a lot
of ranges around a lot of places you can do it.
Grab copies of both your books and they can start
that way. I love it, Ryan Tlactor, thanks so much.
That was a fun interview. Ryan of course is just
(36:47):
a fun guy to be around. Obviously incredibly a good shooter.
You don't get to do Special Forces sniper work without
being a really good shooter, but notes how to teach,
and he's just an habit hunter and as I say,
also and an attorney in the aviation or not aviation
in the firearms world. I've run in back and forth
through an aviation and fireworms, and I actually find there's
(37:09):
a lot of carryover, particularly when it comes to risk management,
and I talk about that. It's like, Okay, if this
doesn't feel right, maybe we shouldn't be doing it. We
have a thing in aviation. We call it get home
itis or get their itis. Same to you. It's basically
pushing aside your concerns, your safety concerns, because you feel
(37:31):
an urge to get there. If I don't take off now,
I know the weather's iffy, but if it don't take
off now, it's going to cause me an inconvenience. We
may have to stay overnight, we may have to on
and on and on. It's a mindset that you have
to be aware of and guard against. It's not exactly
complacency is something else, but in shooting in the farm's world,
(37:56):
we have mindsets that we have to watch out for,
complacency being one of the big ones. I've done this
a thousand times. You know, I'm okay doing this. Oh look, wow,
I just swept my buddy with the muzzle and I
didn't mean to because I wasn't focused. I had a
flight instructor when I was trying to get my private
(38:19):
pilot license many many years ago. He said something that
stuck with me because it goes across aviation and guns.
He said, when you are in a hurry, you are
in danger.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
When you're in a hurry around guns, you most certainly
are increasing the risk. I've heard from people who say, Yeah,
I was in a hurry leaving the range. I left
my gun on the bench and drove home without it. Whoa, whoa?
Take a minute, slow down, catch your breath, walk around. Look,
we call the dummy check. Did we leave anything on
(38:56):
the ground, did we leave anything laying around? Just things
like that. The mental aspect of this, I think is
not talked about a lot, but I think it's critical.
Whether it's self defense or recreational shooting, or storing guns
or anything else. The four rules of guns safety always apply.
You should know them, you should memorize them, you should
be able to recite them, and you should absolutely always
(39:19):
observe them. I'm looking at a story it's breaking right now,
and it reminds me we talk about safety, security, don't
outsource your safety being self reliant, and I realized that
(39:40):
self reliance is not convenient. It often isn't. It requires
more work on your part, more dollars on your part.
It's just inconvenience. Story right now is that San Francisco
power outage puts one hundred and thirty thousand in the
dark as self driving car service stops vehicles in the street.
(40:06):
At this time, we are unable to provide a precise
time frame for full restoration. Our power went out here
this week. We had massive windstorms, trees at, thousands of trees,
tens thousands of trees down everywhere. Our power went out
and was out at our house for fifty five hours.
(40:27):
It was called it two and a half days no electricity,
And while slightly inconvenient, I have a whole house generator.
It kicked on and ran. Why do I have a
whole house generator? Because I don't know. I'm either prepared
or paranoid. I don't know which it is. It didn't
(40:48):
really matter. I don't care. But we had lights, we
had hot water, We were able to continue and do
what we needed to do, and it ran just fine.
I come from hurricane country, I'm used to that. Why
I have a generator there. That's why I have a
generator here in the just in case I don't let
my gas tank in my car get below half. Ever.
(41:09):
Why is that Well, because if something happens and I
need to get away from wherever it is I am,
I have a half a tank, I can get one
hundred two undred miles away. So in our family, we
don't let our gas tanks get below half inconvenient. Yes,
it means I have to fill up more often. Just
make it part of your lifestyle. It's what you do.
(41:30):
I am the guy who takes responsibility for my safety
and the responsibility for my family's safety. They know that
I carry two flashlights, I carry a tournique, I carry gauze.
I have a full first aid kit in my car.
I have three fire extinguishers in my car. I have
(41:50):
two sleeping bags in my car. As I'm speaking to
you right now, because it's winter. What is the likelihood
of ever needing that? I don't know, but I dare
it's not zero. The chances are not zero. And if
you need them, you need them. It's a mindset thing.
You got to figure it out, you got to fish out. Okay,
this is what I do. This is I like this
(42:11):
game called whatever you want to do, whatever the mind
games you have to do to get yourself there. I
like being that person. I like my self image of
being the prepared person or being the one that people
count on, the one that oh, yeah, I've got an
extra flashlight for you because you didn't think ahead and
didn't have a flashlight with you when the power went
out for fifty five hours, And yeah, I carry a
(42:36):
gun or two. Why do you want to shoot somebody? No,
I don't want to shoot anybody. I also don't want
them to shoot me. Okay, I have no other way
of making them not shoot me. If somebody decides they're
going to shoot me or knife me or club me.
But if I have a gun, I have a way
of making them change their behavior. Don't want to shoot anybody.
(43:00):
I'm certainly willing to if that's what it takes to
protect me, keep them from hurting my family. It's really
a you equation. You have to figure out what works
for you. You have to figure out where you want
to be on the scale of depending upon somebody else
to take care of you, to provide your electricity, to
(43:22):
provide your safety, to provide your water, provide whatever, and
then what are you gonna do when that's not there?
Because sometimes it's not. I don't know. You got to
figure it out for yourself. If you want to join
me to talk about that, call me right now. We'll
get you on the after show. Call me a Tom
Talk gun. In the meantime, get out there, do it
little shop and buy something. Call your gun store. Say
what you got that you want to unload at a
(43:42):
good price. Right now, I'll make you a deal. Merry
Christmas to all of you. Will see on the backside. Okay,
be safe,
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