December 15, 2024 • 43 mins
In This Hour:
-- Nationally-famous firearms trainer Chris Cerino describes the "secrets" to better shooting.
-- Short Barrel Rifles (SBSs) versus AR-15 pistols. Why choose one over the other?
-- Red dot optics on pistols are the rage, but they bring an extra burden to make sure they work. You have to keep the mounting screws tight, replace the batteries, and keep the glass clean. Is all that really worthwhile?
Gun Talk 12.15.24 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- Nationally-famous firearms trainer Chris Cerino describes the "secrets" to better shooting.
-- Short Barrel Rifles (SBSs) versus AR-15 pistols. Why choose one over the other?
-- Red dot optics on pistols are the rage, but they bring an extra burden to make sure they work. You have to keep the mounting screws tight, replace the batteries, and keep the glass clean. Is all that really worthwhile?
Gun Talk 12.15.24 Hour 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Ruger LC carbine is the ultimate range companion, chambered
in five seven by twenty eight. He's fun to shoot
and low recoiling, a folding stock and collapsible sites to
make a compact. Learn more at Ruger dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey, welcome back. It's gone talking. I'm Tom Gresham. Give
me a call Tom talk gunn. That's the magic number.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Here.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm still down here at Range Ready Studios having a
good old time. I actually we're going to record this
little interview right before I start on the DPI class
Diagnostic Pistol Instructor. I'm joined by the head instructor of
the guy who actually created the class, Chris Sorino. Chris,
where did the idea come from for the Diagnostic Pistol
(00:41):
Instructor class?
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Do you really not know we're doing that?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Really? Don't it?
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Okay? Because it's an interesting I still I don't know anything. Well,
that's the way I get up every day, not knowing anything. Well,
what happened was I taught all these three day pistol classes,
and I would work with people and I would go aside,
and I'd take somebody aside and I'd do something weird
with them, you know, have them shoot with their eyes closed,
press their trigger, feel their trigger finger, have them stand
(01:07):
on one foot, you know, whatever it was, you know,
saying Mary had a little lamb while they shot. And
people would always say, man, what did you do over there?
Because man, shooting changed drastically. I'd say, well, I did this,
and then it would happen again, Hey what did you
do with her?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Well?
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I did this, And somebody said, you need to make
a class out of all these things you do to
get people to shoot better. So I did. And it
was originally a week long class, and it was two
days of training up front and then three days of
training afterwards where they would bring in maybe one of
their troubled shooters from an agency.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
OK.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
So then we had people to work on. And what
I found out was we didn't need the troubled shooters
because the instructors themselves just needed to work. So we
just started working on each other and it ended up
being a three day class. And now it's a two
day class because that's all we have time for.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well it is, so when you come out of this
what am I I'm taking this class in a couple
of days with you, what am I going to get
out of this. What do I learn?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Well, you learn to teach you can do oh yeah,
you learn all kinds of instructional techniques. You learn how
I do things on the range and why I do
them the way I do and this class, and of
course my style has often been imitated but never duplicated.
I hear about it. You do things differently, Yeah, I
hear about it. All around the country. People are like, yeah, yeah,
(02:32):
so and so I was trying to do a class,
and I know someone in Ohio tried to make a
diagnostic pistol class and it didn't really work. I mean,
you have to know, you have to know all kinds
of ins and outs. You have to know how to
deal with people man, woman, child, lunch ladies, and you.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Have to adjust to what they're doing and what they
can receive. Sometimes they're just not ready to receive it.
You got to find a different way to talk to.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Them, right. And that's another reason why I don't. I don't.
I don't do these classes alone. I always bring a
ringer or two. Now that I'm here in a home base,
I have multiple ringers and it's great because you know,
people don't just want to hear my voice sometimes it
just doesn't get through.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Last week, I dropped into a class you are holding.
I would kind of walk out there and shoot a
little bit, and you do. You got a couple of
instructors spend their shooters. They're just like good I.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Know, but they weren't always shooters. All I did was
teach them how to shoot. I taught them what was important,
and they have run with it. And now they just
they continue to just smoke me. I mean, they run
me into the ground. It is so funny to watch
them shoot because I can't even touch them anymore. Of course,
they got youth and athleticism on their side, but still,
(03:45):
I mean they if I could have been that when
I was that age, I would be really awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Now I'm reminded of it, saying it's this. You know,
I must go because there they go, and I am
their leader. That's right, They're already way ahead of you.
I got to go catch up. I'm their leader, right,
These are those guys. You know.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
I have people that work for me that I don't
ever have to kick in the rear end. I'm always
having to pull them back.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You got a great work ethic around here. Everybody here everybody.
I mean, this morning, I come into the office and
we got water pouring through the walls. We got a
major rainstorw on. We've got a major thing. And everybody
in the office here is got running the shop, backs,
running the mops, running the thing.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Ryan wants you to tell people this it's okay. I mean,
but we did tell not to buy this place.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
No, hey, you know what it was a falling down
uh slaughterhouse.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
It was not falling down. It was there was nowhere
in this building. You couldn't stand and see daylight.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
You can see the sky.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
And I said the r.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, but it's worked out, okay, but look, this was
stuff happens, and we're under a flood watch here. Oh
we got time and everything in Louisiana's low and we're low.
It's like, where's the water going to go? It's all flat.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Well, this water came from up high.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
But yeah, it came off the roof.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
It came off the roof.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Well, one of the downspouts broken.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Even Benjamin pointed a finger and said, hey, I think
you want to sweep this up. I mean, he always helps.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
We're saying that because in the room with us right now,
I can't even see it like that. Who knows? All right,
So back to instruction. One of the most important things
that becoming a better pistol shot.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Well, you don't have to be the best in the world,
but you better be pretty damn good because if you can't,
if you can't hang with your students, if you can't
take someone. And honestly, it's rare that anybody's better than
me in a class. I mean I get people that
become better than me, they beat me. It's great, but
(05:42):
it's it's you've got to be able.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
To shoot too. I mean, you've got to be able
to shoot.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
You got to be able to move, You got to
be able to You got to know what's important, which
is script sites and trigger.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
You got to know what it takes to make the
hit and ultimately it's performance on demand. Now that's one
thing I have up on for everybody, because that's when
I beat the boys, when somebody says, hey, you ought
to do this, and then we go up there and
we do it. And the reason I'll sometimes beat them
is because I'm really good under pressure. I can just
do stuff whenever. And did you start teaching shooting? Gosh,
(06:15):
it's been about thirty years now, Tom, I'm fifty.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Five years with the FEDS. When you started doing.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
That, I was there was a law enforcement officer. I
was a release officer, and they said, hey, do you
you want to go to fires instructor School? And I
said why? And they said, well, you're pretty good, and
so and so is quitting and I said, well, yeah, sure,
I mean I'll go.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Why not, right?
Speaker 4 (06:35):
But yeah, it's been a lifetime process for me. I
love I love to teach people.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
You take to air Marshalls. Oh yeah, you taught at
FLETS the Federal Yeah, Force Warring Center, worked for the
Attorney General's Office. I was instructor for that. You just
pop in, declare yourself to beat this.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Well. I was on top Shot, Tom. I don't know
if you know this, but I was on top Shot
for the first time about fifteen years ago, and I
was really good at it. And I thought, dang, I'm
so good. I should be an instructor, because that's exactly
what everybody thinks, right. Everybody's like, so, would you become
an instructor after top Shot? And I'm like, yeah, no, yeah, no,
I'm doing it long for fifteen years at that time,
(07:15):
so yeah, a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
What do people not know about carrying a gun for
defensive use or using a gun for defensive use? A
lot of people think they know, they think they're ready.
Where do they follow down? What do they not know?
What do they don't understand?
Speaker 4 (07:33):
We have to remember that if you can shoot and
hit the cardboard, it's not really good enough because that's
piece of paper glued cardboard, staple to a stick. It's
not moving or shooting back at you, and there's no stress.
So a lot of people are just shooters and we
you know, I talked about it. I've talked about it
many times. People are shooters. They go out to a
firearms shooting range and they discharge farms in a safe
(07:56):
direction and I'm not knocking anybody. The thing is they
don't know that. They don't know because you're not allowed
to do so much. And then they haven't been to
like training and CCW training isn't training right, you know,
training to work from a holster, to shoot fast, to
shoot rhythmically, to shoot tight groups, because if you can,
(08:16):
if you can just draw down and throw down and
fire two or three and they go through the same
hole or.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Really really close to it.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
That's pretty awesome, and don't let anybody tell you that's not.
You've got to be able to do it when I
tell you to do it, and on demand. It would
be really great if you could put all three shots
inside of each other. When the target starts moving and
shooting back at you, which we all know it's not
going to happen, right, It will be lucky to keep
sits on target. But that's the whole mission. Sits on target,
(08:44):
press trigger.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
But if you're shooting eight or twelve inch groups at
seven yards on cardboard, what's going to happen when the
world turns to crap on you?
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Right, It's going to come on glued. And what most
people don't have is a good solid foundation. And I
know the gun site has a combat triad and that's
like weapon manipulation and gear manipulation, fundamentals, marksmanship and mindset.
Mine is a little different minus wet manipulate or gear
manipulation skills on one side of the triangle. The other
side is wet manipulation skills, the bottom is fundamentals of marksmanship,
(09:16):
and the whole inside is mindset, mindset. Because there's there's
with those four things you can win the day if
you have good gear manipulation wet manipulation fundamentals can can't
if you are lucky enough to survive the initial encounter.
Do you have what it takes to end it? Because
(09:37):
a guy pulls down, he throws down on you, he shoots,
he misses, We get into a gunfight around a car
maybe whatever, in an alleyway. Do you have what it
takes to finally say hey before I run out of AMMO,
I think I'm going to try to put the sites
on target and press trigger.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
That's where it takes, yes, and that's where first person
Defender comes in. We learned that we show that train
people up. The improvement that you get in an hour
or two is amazing there and that's just a teeny
tiny little slice of which because.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
What we're doing in first person Offenders, we're opening people's
minds to things that they hadn't thought about before.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I never thought of that.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
The street is a poor place improvise. You're not going
to magically come up with a solution to a problem
that your life depends on in an instant if you
haven't thought it or done it, and thinking it is
a big deal.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
It is, isn't it. You can Actually I hate to
call it training. But if you're sitting in your big
easy chair and you're doing these quote ifs, if this happens,
I'll do this. If this happens, I'll do that. You've
actually kind of programmed yourself and you'll click in action
and thought.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
I told you today during lunch it's not if then,
it's when and then. We like to say when. If then,
we like to say when and then now because because
when this happens, then I'm going to do that because
you know, darn well.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I like that attitude.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
It's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Well, I like the attitude when you put your gun
on every day. So today's the day I'm going to
need this. Yes, that's the same thing. It's not if
I'm going to use it. Today is the day. So
I've already made the decision.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Yes, so I.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Don't have to go through the ooda loop and kind
of work my way through, Gee, what's going on? What
should I do? I've already decided all that.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Right, we have to think when then, and you're you're
one hundred percent right, And don't say that it's not
training either tomay, because when you're sitting in your chair
and you're thinking about things, even if you're watching some
ridiculous movie. Oh, I would do this instead. That's training.
You see what's happening, you watch what happens on the news.
You think about all those different things. You know, I
(11:33):
would shoot him through the window, I would shoot him
through the door. I would have you're working on your
decision making skills, right, Yes, you're thinking about all that stuff.
You're training your brain because you know your body won't
go where the mind hasn't been. And you're always you
should always be taking yourself somewhere.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I got scooped. But this is why we come here,
because you think about cool stuff like this that we
don't and then you know how to teach it. And
then with the luck, maybe at the end of the
week I'll be able to teach a little bit of it.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
I think you'll hop you it'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Thanks Chris, all right, we'll be right back with more
gun talk.
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Speaker 6 (13:12):
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Speaker 7 (13:43):
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Speaker 2 (14:23):
If you are one of the people at the class
Thursday Friday, the Diagnostic Pistol Instructor class, we just finished
here and you're listening, give me a call. I'll lot
to get your take, your range report on this, because
I mean, I've got my take on it, but frankly,
I come to it just a little bit differently. I'm
involved in the process, some part of the team that
puts it on. I mean not that I'm one of
(14:46):
the ones that teaches it, not at all. And I
learned a lot. Somebody said, well, what was it like, Well,
it was intense. I mean not like hard, you know,
people yelling at you intents. It's just there's a lot
of information being dumped into your brain and you're absorbing it,
(15:06):
You're getting it. But what I found is, as I'm shooting,
is the tendency is to go right back to your
old habits. But I guess it's natural, especially if you've
been shooting for fifty plus years like I have, and
you go, you know, it's just when I picked the
gun up, I hold it the same way I've held
it for the last half a century, and now I'm
(15:29):
being told hold it a different way. You know, do this,
put more pressure on this side, work to trigger this way.
It's like, okay, and I see the results. It works
and they're right, and you become a better shooter. Bring
me back up, what does it mean to be a
(15:49):
better shooter? I mean, we got to cover that for
a second. This is not about sitting there, slow fire
and putting round after round in the center of the target.
The goal with this is to become to get to
where you can shoot accurately, but shoot quickly. You don't
shoot fast. And I mean we're talking. One of the
(16:12):
drills is was it ten twelve shots, draw and fire
twelve shots in five seconds? Yeah, we're hammered. For further
back it was ten seconds and then fifteen seconds as
you get further back to allow more time. But up close,
(16:35):
it's like, okay, get that gun out of your holster,
get on target and rock and roll, and it's pop up, pup, pup, pup, pup, pup, pup, pup,
pup up. About that fast, okay? How and when you
speed up is when things fall apart when you speed up,
(16:55):
as when you identify problems with your procedures, with your grip,
with particularly with your trigger. And I would say for me,
about eighty percent of what I was working on the
whole time was trigger manipulation. I'll talk about the click
bang and why you don't want to do that and
trigger we said, just a second, but I do want
(17:15):
to get bred in here. He's calling online four out
of Los Angeles with a range report force. Hey Brett,
what's shooting?
Speaker 8 (17:22):
I the new Herders nine millimeter and twenty two long rifle.
I bought both of them at Brass Pro Shop and
at the nine millime at box of nine and a
box of twenty two. Both shot flawlessly both times.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Now new, I don't know how old you are or
if you were old enough to remember that. Like forty
years ago, Herders was an interesting mail order catalog with
interesting proprietary or brand named m O.
Speaker 9 (17:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (17:55):
I found young on the phone, but I only started
shooting thirty one thirty two years ago.
Speaker 10 (17:59):
I don't remember that.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, this goes way way back. Herders was like, you know,
a series catalog or something like that for outdoor stuff.
So what made you decide to try the Herder's AMMO.
Speaker 8 (18:12):
I I was in bass Pro shop and I saw
that it was new, so I go, well, I've actually
did it for this this radio show. I've reviewed it
before once before. I thought I'd just give it a try.
I've called an AMMO here before, but I just wanted
to get a try because it was new and I
was kind of suspect. I figured I was gonna be
okay to it. I shot it out of my Ruger
(18:32):
ten twenty two nineteen eighty nine Ruber ten twenty two
rifle and a Glock nineteen third gen and thumbs up
to both. To Herder for both their.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
AMMO line outstanding. Well that that's a great range report,
Thanks Brett. I appreciate that, sir. You know, on the
subject of AMMO, uh, fellow shoot next to it. Here's
an interesting story justin uh we kind of partnered up
for the class and he was shooting a see P
two two six six two to six double action single
(19:06):
acts trigger pol which is hard. It's just harder to
master the double action single action trigger pole. But he
was having something interesting going on. I encouraged him to
get the pistol looked at. But one brand of AMMO
just wouldn't run. And I'm talking about a major brand
and other ammo another major brand would run like a
top one did. One didn't. And he was having failures
(19:30):
to extract, which is interesting. So the fired case would
stay in the chamber with one type of AMMO and
the others just ran fine. Justin also, and we're going
to complete a loop here. He brought a couple of
revolvers with him that we got to shoot. And I
(19:50):
will be forever grateful because these were Tiger McKee's personal guns,
and these are choppers that Tiger made tour. Later on
in his life, Tiger started making revolvers, fighting revolvers, and
Tiger's great instructor had him on the show here many
many times. Of course, he died last year, and interestingly enough,
(20:14):
when justin, you know, I helped with those when we
back up, when Tiger died, I helped Gretch and his
wife come up with values for the guns and then
ended up going on a gun broker and being auctioned
off that way to raise money for her, which is great. Well,
Justin didn't know it at the time. I didn't know
who he was at the time, but I was bidding
(20:35):
against him a gun broker, because I was trying to
get those revolvers. And I got to a point where
I said, Okay, that's just far enough. You know, It's
like I don't have to have him, and now it's
at a good place where Gretchen will get some money
for him. So I backed out and Justin got him.
That's fine. And then he shows up over here. He says,
(20:57):
I got those revolvers Tigers have. I said, we know,
I'm the one who's been bidden against you, because really,
son of a gun. So he took a break in the
middle of the day, second day of the class, went
out there during lunch.
Speaker 11 (21:10):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I think it was a lunch may no, maybe it
was after the that's right, it was after the class,
and we fired a few rounds through Tiger's guns. Mandy
were sweet and slick and just serious machines. If I
were going to shoot him a lot, I would shoot
thirty eighths through them, just like every three fifty seven Magnum,
but we shot the full house three fifty seven Magnum.
Shooting him on steel had some fun kind of a
(21:33):
reconnection with their old friend Tiger, and that was that
was fun. So justin thank you for that. I appreciate that.
And man, you improved so much with that DASA gun.
You were rocking that thing at first, having a lot
of trouble with the transition from the double action to
single action, and with instruction and work. I mean he
(21:54):
got to where he was just tearing the heart out
of these targets. It was really impressive. Really didn't matter
what you were shooting, the instructors there could match you
up and help you with it. In my case, they
helped me a bunch. They probably went away say and
you know, there's things we can't do for this guy.
He may be unteachable in some areas, and they're probably
right about that. Helpe you right that. If you get
(22:25):
a chance, hop over to the gun Talk website or
you go over to YouTube where we have our videos.
kJ Kevin Tarnigan and I did a podcast with him
for gun Talk Hunt. We have gun Talk Nation, gun
Talk Hunt, gun Talk Live, different podcasts we do and
kJ is all about hunting. So we had gosh, forty
minutes on that, and we circle the globe. We went
(22:46):
all over the place for different talking about different guns
and AMMO and log shots and all sorts of stuff.
It was fun. We had a good time here in
the studio, So you might just go check that out.
Of course, you can find our videos anywhere you get
streaming online videos, obviously YouTube, but you go to gun
talk dot com, gun talk dot tv, a lot of
(23:06):
different ways, and we have who knows thousands, easily thousands
of videos now I don't know. Yeah, I don't think
we have ten thousand, but we were somewhere short of
that at this point. And they're about everything from self
defense to target shooting, to hunting to cool guns, and
we do get to play with the cool guns. I
actually did a couple of videos this week on guns
(23:29):
we can't talk about yet. They'll be out I think
around Shot Show time, which is coming right up. We're
talking about a month out now for Shot Show when
a lot of new guns are introduced. So there's some
cool stuff going on. There's some innovation happening out there. Hey,
let's go to the phone. It's Paul's with us. Out
of anchorage. On three, Paul, what are you carrying? And why?
(23:53):
I got Paul's road noise? I got his road noise.
Tell you what. Let's grab al On five, we'll get
back to Paul when he picks up his phonder wherever
he ends up. L Little Rock, Arkansas. What's up?
Speaker 10 (24:09):
Well, I just wanted to give you an update.
Speaker 12 (24:12):
I carry a glock nineteen gen five, okay, and I'm
a senior citizen, and I found it kind of hard
to acquisition targets with the standard sites. I was watching
some videos on YouTube and I went ahead and changed
my site to a ghost ring, and I found out
it's a lot easier acquisition to targets with a ghost
(24:33):
ring site than it is with the standard peep sites.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Now, janerally speaking, we use a peep site on a rifle,
but that rear site is back close to our eye
when you're stuck that pistol way out there. You can't
use a small peep site. It's going to be a
pretty big like a big ghost ring thing.
Speaker 9 (24:52):
Huh, it's a ghost ring.
Speaker 12 (24:54):
It is a ghost ring.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
So did you have to change your front site to
raise it up? To align? You get sites aligned?
Speaker 12 (25:04):
It came as a kid, and you change out the
rear sight to the ghost ring, and you change out
to your front site, and it comes as a kid.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
All right, I'm going to ask the question all the
listeners are asking right now. They're saying, but did you
ever consider going to a red dot site?
Speaker 12 (25:23):
I considered that, but I just didn't. I didn't really
want to go to the expense of a red dot,
so I went with a ghost ring. And I really
liked the ghost ring. I've taken it out to qualify
with from my yearly qualifications and did fine with it.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
That is terrific, very interesting. All right, well, I was
it familiar with that, but now I am a ghosting
site on your glock. Thank you. I appreciate the call.
Let's go back and grab Paul. I think we got
him back on and the anchorage al ask hey.
Speaker 9 (25:57):
Paul you there, hire, can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (26:01):
We got you now, So tell me about you and
these little revolvers.
Speaker 9 (26:07):
My little bit d one. That's right, I'm looking what
I have. Usually this is my usual carry one. That's
not my Smith and Smith and Wesson Model four forty two,
my little five shot with an extra three extra three
extra loads and it's Streed loads Steed loaders, and it was.
And I also have a Glock twenty six, but I
(26:30):
don't use them a whole lot.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Usually, I just keeping these keeping my bedroom and just
kind of keeping there. I'm looking at stuff, I'm looking
at other a lot of things that at least it
looks to me in real life, not make beliefs stuff,
but in real life, if you're very accurate and you're
very good at.
Speaker 9 (26:46):
It, and I am, usually you don't need more than that.
You get more than one to three round the given
police officers usually more.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Right, Paul, Hey, Paul, what is what is that background?
Always we're here of all?
Speaker 9 (27:03):
Oh, because I'm driving, I'm one to snow right now?
Oh okay, yeah, it's sound stout fifty below.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Okay, well, you know, and look, I'm going to pick
it up from here because I kind of see where
you're going with this. But that's just too much background
noise for us to really be able to understand you
very well. So I'm going to pick this up. The
idea of using and I've heard this before people say, well,
you know the average shot, you know, average gunfighter is
three shots, or average gun fight is two point two
shots or whatever it is, Well, that's great and if
(27:37):
it works out you're in an average gun fight, more
power to you.
Speaker 11 (27:40):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
And look, there's nothing in the world wrong with saying
I'm going to carry a five shot thirty eight special.
They have. It's particularly the double action only versions. They
have a lot going for them. You can just keep
it in a coat pocket, you can conceal them a
lot of different ways. You if you get into a
clutch and you're having to shove it up against somebody,
you just keep pressing the trigger and it's going to
keep going off. Having said all that, if it were
(28:04):
thirty eight, I would probably want to get the best
plus PMO I could have in it. And speedloaders just
need to practice with them. If you are unfamiliar with speedloaders,
let me recommend, and we actually do this over here
arrange ready, I would recommend you go take a revolver class.
It is so much fun. It is just fun. And
(28:28):
you learn some techniques and some drills and some skills
on reloading and either using you know, speed strips or speedloaders,
and how to carry and how to carry your loaders,
and it's just fun. You kind of figure out what
you can and can't do. And look, if you've got
a three inch barrel, two inch barrel snubby and let
(28:50):
me be short sights on it, there's a limit you're
probably not gonna issued at thirty yards with this. This
is a get get off me gun. At the same time,
I'm gonna do the yeah but what if thing. There
are situations where you may need to make a longer
shut where and people say, yeah, but I know, I
(29:15):
got all the yeah butts, I got it. You know,
if he jumps you, he's probably on top of you.
But what if he's jumping somebody else. What if he
is hitting he's got a crowbar and he's hitting a
woman in the parking lot, and you've decided you're going
to be the guy that makes him stop doing this?
(29:36):
Are you going to run up to snubby range or
are you just going to take care of it from
where you are, which might be fifteen yards, which is
forty five feet? And are you up for that task.
I'm not saying there's a right or wrong here. That's
that's the whole thing. Look, if there were a right
and a wrong and we all knew what it was,
(29:57):
we wouldn't have these conversations, and this would be a
much shorter show. And so we have these conversations about
what what if this, what if that? And we start
doing our what ifs, and we think about compromises. And
that's really what a lot of this is. When we
come back off, we're talk a little bit about compromises
and red dots and iron sights and what can go
(30:21):
wrong and what did go wrong in the Class eight
six six talk gun be right.
Speaker 11 (30:26):
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Speaker 2 (32:51):
I pay attention to what I see is little signs
of culture changes when it comes to guns. I don't
know when it was fifteen years ago, twenty years ago
when Smith and Wesson all line firearms company making old
style guns. When Smith and Wesson announced that they were
(33:11):
making AR fifteen's the M and P fifteen, and I
said on the show, I said, this is a change.
This is a culture change. It is now totally mainstream.
I mean, looking at it from where we are now,
it's hard to understand how big a deal that was
twenty years ago because AR fifteens were kind of stone niche.
(33:36):
And but when Smith and Wesson brought out an AR
fifteen and now they have of course a complete lineup
and they're very good, I said, okay, this is interesting.
So I also found it interesting this week when I
got a news release from Smith and Wesson to talk
about them selling SBRs short barrel rifles basically just shorter
(33:57):
barreled ars. But that of course required hires you to
get an NFA license. If the register that gun pay
the two hundred dollars tax, what would cause that? And
they also are making of course AAR fifteen pistols. That's interesting,
so what would cause that? Well, demand people are interested
(34:22):
in them and the other thing. And we have not
talked about this much. We have talked about the fact
that suppressors. It used to be what six months to
a year a wait for the ATF to process your
application so you could buy a suppressor, and now it's
like three days or a week. Well you know what
(34:43):
else happened. Sbr's got that benefit, and it's a week
three weeks in many cases to get your paperwork on
an SBR. Now, having said that, and I keep thinking, man,
I think it'd be cool to have an SBR. I
think it'd be nice to have a short barrel rifle,
short barrel ar. Here's the problem until they change the rigs.
(35:06):
In most cases, there are some real restrictions about traveling
across state lines with an SBR. And I don't know
exactly what the deal is. You got to apply to
the ATF and get the OKA or something like that,
which is honestly probably the big reason that and of
course having to pay the two hundred dollars tax on it,
(35:28):
the big reason that AR pistols are so popular. You
get an AR fifteen pistol, which has the same length
of barrel, and then you have a stabilizing embrace on it,
which is not a stock exactly, but it's a quasi SBR.
I mean, we know what this is, and that's a
good thing. There's nothing wrong with that, whether it's you know,
(35:48):
in your car, your truck, it's at home. Personally, if
I were shooting one of those, I would definitely want
up pressure on it because let me just tell you,
AR is allowed and a short barrel all R is
really really loud. Now, if somebody can tell me, I'm
just gonna ask you call me and tell me. I
may be missing something here in terms of why an
(36:12):
SBR would be preferable to an AR pistol. Clearly, I've
mean having a real stock would be better. I understand that.
Is it enough better? And also you can kind of
fill in the gap in my knowledge when it comes
to traveling interstate with SBRs, because I know there's a
(36:32):
thing there that you have to do, but I'm not
since I don't have any I don't really know what
that thing is. You can travel interstate with your suppressor,
and there are some states you got to find out
for sure, there's some states where you can't have a suppressure.
But a lot of states, you can most states, I guess,
but yeah, an aar pistol with a brace or collapsible
(36:54):
brace with a can. Particularly these cake ans little short cakens.
Quickly add those are not hearing safe. They are quieter,
but there's still loud enough to damage your hearing. But
you know, if you got a cork going off, better
that than not having anything at all, particularly if it's
going to be in your house. So you could fill
(37:15):
me in. And I do like the idea of it
being a truck gun or how do you say this
correctly without making people lose their minds, A low profile
carry gun, backpack, satchel something you know, if you're going
into an environment where you think you might need that,
(37:36):
of course, you know my standard answer on that, right,
if you're going to a place where you think there's
a probability you're going to need that, then maybe you
might want to reconsider going there in the first place.
I don't know, just just kind of thinking. So red
dots and iron sights, as I say, we had at
least at the start of the class, we had sixteen
(37:56):
students and four of them were using iron sights. It
changed the five when I changed the slide out on
my sig and I went to iron sights on that
I actually had sight the red dot rather on my
other gun on the other slide got wobbly loose. We
(38:17):
had some batteries go out. These are I mean, it's
not a knock on them. It's just this is the reality.
You've got another piece of gear and every time you
add stuff to your gun, you add failure points. It's
just the way it is. Now does what does that mean?
It means you just have to pay a lot more attention.
You got to make sure it's cleaned. You got to
(38:38):
make sure the you know, the windows cleaned, you don't
have oil on it. You got to make sure it's
tightened up. You got to make sure the batteries you
are fresh. You're adding things to it. If that's not
in your wheelhouse, you say, I just don't want to
do that. Fine, just learn to shoot irons, and there's
no reason you can't. With good instruction, you should be
able to shoot irons all most as well as you
(38:59):
can in a dot site almost.
Speaker 10 (39:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
We're talking about it when we come back. We're talking
about SBRs short bare rifles versus AR pistols. And Jim.
During the break, you said, well, you know, you get
your ar pistol in a three hundred blackout and saying yep,
and then put a can on it, yep, and then
(39:24):
you SUPs on the gamo.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
That's what a lot of people do. I don't know
what Michael does, but he's about to tell us. Michael's
in Charlotte, North Carolina. Michael, I understand you do, in
fact have at least one AR pistol.
Speaker 10 (39:35):
Right, yeah, I've got two. But the other thing I'm
gonna say was, I'm also the guy who was helping
you run up the price on tigers choppers were auctions. Yeah,
I ended up with I was actually getting I was
getting to the point where I was afraid I was
gonna win them because I had I'd already decided I bought.
(39:57):
I bought one of his forty five nineteen eleven, and
I bought an ar that he had bought from Clint Smith.
So those are actually the ones I really wanted. But yeah,
I was. I was running the price up with you.
That was fun.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
That is fun. So tell me about your A.
Speaker 10 (40:13):
Pistols, well mineor even stranger than typical. I mean I'm
kind of like you and I like different stuff. These
are a Professional Ordinance, which was a company that's been
out of business for a while, but they don't have
the exact same barrel lock up and the lugs are
slightly different, but it's a seven and a half inch barrel.
(40:33):
It's just fun. There was no inned to spell that word.
We don't speak out loud for them, but they're just fun.
I mean, you're you can you can grab the magazine
or you can prop it over your forearm. And my
nephews love them. We go out to the woods sometimes
we're safe and got a good burm and just run
(40:54):
through twenty thirty mags at a time and excuse me,
round at a time. But it was it was funny
because I was I'd gone down my parents were still alive,
and my dad was having hearing issues. He's sitting in
the house, and you talk about how loud they are.
I had I had a new shotgun I was going
to try out, and I was down there. I went
(41:15):
and told him said, I'm going down the pond and
going to shoot a shotgun, this, that and the other.
And then while I was down there, I thought, well,
you know, I've been having trouble getting this thing to
run right. Let me squirt it down with ballast doll
and just run it with the bolt completely wet. And
then I just and I just had a magazine popped
it in and just started pulling the trigger. And it
turned out the magazine only had twenty four rounds in it.
(41:36):
But the fun part about it was I get back
up to the house. As soon as I walk in
the door, Dad's like, that wasn't no shotgun?
Speaker 9 (41:44):
What have you gotten?
Speaker 10 (41:46):
Twenty four shot? It was so loud that one hundred
and twenty yards away from the house up the hill
and with the doors closed, he could hear enough to
count every shot. So, yeah, they're loud. They're fun.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
It's not like you just got it because they're allowed
and fun exactly.
Speaker 10 (42:07):
They're just they're just a hoot to play with the well,
not play. You have to be safe, but you know what.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I mean, I understand just for recreational shooting, they're fun.
But yeah, and doubling up when you're hearing. Protection is
not about idea do you have and I don't have
but just a few seconds if you have a suppressor for.
Speaker 10 (42:22):
Him, No, but I'm trying. I'm troping to get in
on that Bogo deal before it's over.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Oh the solids a central deal, buy one, get one. Yes, absolutely,
you ought to do that because that's that's a heck
of a deal. So uh for that. Honestly, for what
you're talking about there, I'd probably get a longer can,
not the ca can, because you want to want as
much suppressions you can get with that. Hey, great ranger
for I appreciate that, and I am so glad to
hear that you were one of the other people that
(42:49):
was driving up the price on Tiger's guns on gun broker.
Justin got those choppers and I'm glad you did. I'm
really glad I got you just to shoot those. Those
are very cool, a nice touchstone with Tigers, such a
good guy. If you ever you want a cool book
about guns, Tiger McKee's book is called the Book of
Two Guns. The Book of two Guns, Never seen anything
(43:13):
like it, all written in his handprinting, with his hand
drawings about his journey to learn about martial arts with guns,
defensive use of guns. It deserves a place. If you're
serious about this, or you're interested in defensive use of guns,
you need a copy of the Book of Two Guns
by Tiger McKee. I don't know anybody who's ever got
(43:36):
one who was sorry he or she got it. It's
just that interesting gun talk. Will be right back
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Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey, welcome back. It's gone talking. I'm Tom Gresham. Give
me a call Tom talk gunn. That's the magic number.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Here.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm still down here at Range Ready Studios having a
good old time. I actually we're going to record this
little interview right before I start on the DPI class
Diagnostic Pistol Instructor. I'm joined by the head instructor of
the guy who actually created the class, Chris Sorino. Chris,
where did the idea come from for the Diagnostic Pistol
(00:41):
Instructor class?
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Do you really not know we're doing that?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Really? Don't it?
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Okay? Because it's an interesting I still I don't know anything. Well,
that's the way I get up every day, not knowing anything. Well,
what happened was I taught all these three day pistol classes,
and I would work with people and I would go aside,
and I'd take somebody aside and I'd do something weird
with them, you know, have them shoot with their eyes closed,
press their trigger, feel their trigger finger, have them stand
(01:07):
on one foot, you know, whatever it was, you know,
saying Mary had a little lamb while they shot. And
people would always say, man, what did you do over there?
Because man, shooting changed drastically. I'd say, well, I did this,
and then it would happen again, Hey what did you
do with her?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Well?
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I did this, And somebody said, you need to make
a class out of all these things you do to
get people to shoot better. So I did. And it
was originally a week long class, and it was two
days of training up front and then three days of
training afterwards where they would bring in maybe one of
their troubled shooters from an agency.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
OK.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
So then we had people to work on. And what
I found out was we didn't need the troubled shooters
because the instructors themselves just needed to work. So we
just started working on each other and it ended up
being a three day class. And now it's a two
day class because that's all we have time for.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well it is, so when you come out of this
what am I I'm taking this class in a couple
of days with you, what am I going to get
out of this. What do I learn?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Well, you learn to teach you can do oh yeah,
you learn all kinds of instructional techniques. You learn how
I do things on the range and why I do
them the way I do and this class, and of
course my style has often been imitated but never duplicated.
I hear about it. You do things differently, Yeah, I
hear about it. All around the country. People are like, yeah, yeah,
(02:32):
so and so I was trying to do a class,
and I know someone in Ohio tried to make a
diagnostic pistol class and it didn't really work. I mean,
you have to know, you have to know all kinds
of ins and outs. You have to know how to
deal with people man, woman, child, lunch ladies, and you.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Have to adjust to what they're doing and what they
can receive. Sometimes they're just not ready to receive it.
You got to find a different way to talk to.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Them, right. And that's another reason why I don't. I don't.
I don't do these classes alone. I always bring a
ringer or two. Now that I'm here in a home base,
I have multiple ringers and it's great because you know,
people don't just want to hear my voice sometimes it
just doesn't get through.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Last week, I dropped into a class you are holding.
I would kind of walk out there and shoot a
little bit, and you do. You got a couple of
instructors spend their shooters. They're just like good I.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Know, but they weren't always shooters. All I did was
teach them how to shoot. I taught them what was important,
and they have run with it. And now they just
they continue to just smoke me. I mean, they run
me into the ground. It is so funny to watch
them shoot because I can't even touch them anymore. Of course,
they got youth and athleticism on their side, but still,
(03:45):
I mean they if I could have been that when
I was that age, I would be really awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Now I'm reminded of it, saying it's this. You know,
I must go because there they go, and I am
their leader. That's right, They're already way ahead of you.
I got to go catch up. I'm their leader, right,
These are those guys. You know.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
I have people that work for me that I don't
ever have to kick in the rear end. I'm always
having to pull them back.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You got a great work ethic around here. Everybody here everybody.
I mean, this morning, I come into the office and
we got water pouring through the walls. We got a
major rainstorw on. We've got a major thing. And everybody
in the office here is got running the shop, backs,
running the mops, running the thing.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Ryan wants you to tell people this it's okay. I mean,
but we did tell not to buy this place.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
No, hey, you know what it was a falling down
uh slaughterhouse.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
It was not falling down. It was there was nowhere
in this building. You couldn't stand and see daylight.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
You can see the sky.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
And I said the r.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, but it's worked out, okay, but look, this was
stuff happens, and we're under a flood watch here. Oh
we got time and everything in Louisiana's low and we're low.
It's like, where's the water going to go? It's all flat.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Well, this water came from up high.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
But yeah, it came off the roof.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
It came off the roof.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Well, one of the downspouts broken.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Even Benjamin pointed a finger and said, hey, I think
you want to sweep this up. I mean, he always helps.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
We're saying that because in the room with us right now,
I can't even see it like that. Who knows? All right,
So back to instruction. One of the most important things
that becoming a better pistol shot.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Well, you don't have to be the best in the world,
but you better be pretty damn good because if you can't,
if you can't hang with your students, if you can't
take someone. And honestly, it's rare that anybody's better than
me in a class. I mean I get people that
become better than me, they beat me. It's great, but
(05:42):
it's it's you've got to be able.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
To shoot too. I mean, you've got to be able
to shoot.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
You got to be able to move, You got to
be able to You got to know what's important, which
is script sites and trigger.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
You got to know what it takes to make the
hit and ultimately it's performance on demand. Now that's one
thing I have up on for everybody, because that's when
I beat the boys, when somebody says, hey, you ought
to do this, and then we go up there and
we do it. And the reason I'll sometimes beat them
is because I'm really good under pressure. I can just
do stuff whenever. And did you start teaching shooting? Gosh,
(06:15):
it's been about thirty years now, Tom, I'm fifty.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Five years with the FEDS. When you started doing.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
That, I was there was a law enforcement officer. I
was a release officer, and they said, hey, do you
you want to go to fires instructor School? And I
said why? And they said, well, you're pretty good, and
so and so is quitting and I said, well, yeah, sure,
I mean I'll go.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Why not, right?
Speaker 4 (06:35):
But yeah, it's been a lifetime process for me. I
love I love to teach people.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
You take to air Marshalls. Oh yeah, you taught at
FLETS the Federal Yeah, Force Warring Center, worked for the
Attorney General's Office. I was instructor for that. You just
pop in, declare yourself to beat this.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Well. I was on top Shot, Tom. I don't know
if you know this, but I was on top Shot
for the first time about fifteen years ago, and I
was really good at it. And I thought, dang, I'm
so good. I should be an instructor, because that's exactly
what everybody thinks, right. Everybody's like, so, would you become
an instructor after top Shot? And I'm like, yeah, no, yeah, no,
I'm doing it long for fifteen years at that time,
(07:15):
so yeah, a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
What do people not know about carrying a gun for
defensive use or using a gun for defensive use? A
lot of people think they know, they think they're ready.
Where do they follow down? What do they not know?
What do they don't understand?
Speaker 4 (07:33):
We have to remember that if you can shoot and
hit the cardboard, it's not really good enough because that's
piece of paper glued cardboard, staple to a stick. It's
not moving or shooting back at you, and there's no stress.
So a lot of people are just shooters and we
you know, I talked about it. I've talked about it
many times. People are shooters. They go out to a
firearms shooting range and they discharge farms in a safe
(07:56):
direction and I'm not knocking anybody. The thing is they
don't know that. They don't know because you're not allowed
to do so much. And then they haven't been to
like training and CCW training isn't training right, you know,
training to work from a holster, to shoot fast, to
shoot rhythmically, to shoot tight groups, because if you can,
(08:16):
if you can just draw down and throw down and
fire two or three and they go through the same
hole or.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Really really close to it.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
That's pretty awesome, and don't let anybody tell you that's not.
You've got to be able to do it when I
tell you to do it, and on demand. It would
be really great if you could put all three shots
inside of each other. When the target starts moving and
shooting back at you, which we all know it's not
going to happen, right, It will be lucky to keep
sits on target. But that's the whole mission. Sits on target,
(08:44):
press trigger.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
But if you're shooting eight or twelve inch groups at
seven yards on cardboard, what's going to happen when the
world turns to crap on you?
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Right, It's going to come on glued. And what most
people don't have is a good solid foundation. And I
know the gun site has a combat triad and that's
like weapon manipulation and gear manipulation, fundamentals, marksmanship and mindset.
Mine is a little different minus wet manipulate or gear
manipulation skills on one side of the triangle. The other
side is wet manipulation skills, the bottom is fundamentals of marksmanship,
(09:16):
and the whole inside is mindset, mindset. Because there's there's
with those four things you can win the day if
you have good gear manipulation wet manipulation fundamentals can can't
if you are lucky enough to survive the initial encounter.
Do you have what it takes to end it? Because
(09:37):
a guy pulls down, he throws down on you, he shoots,
he misses, We get into a gunfight around a car
maybe whatever, in an alleyway. Do you have what it
takes to finally say hey before I run out of AMMO,
I think I'm going to try to put the sites
on target and press trigger.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
That's where it takes, yes, and that's where first person
Defender comes in. We learned that we show that train
people up. The improvement that you get in an hour
or two is amazing there and that's just a teeny
tiny little slice of which because.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
What we're doing in first person Offenders, we're opening people's
minds to things that they hadn't thought about before.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I never thought of that.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
The street is a poor place improvise. You're not going
to magically come up with a solution to a problem
that your life depends on in an instant if you
haven't thought it or done it, and thinking it is
a big deal.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
It is, isn't it. You can Actually I hate to
call it training. But if you're sitting in your big
easy chair and you're doing these quote ifs, if this happens,
I'll do this. If this happens, I'll do that. You've
actually kind of programmed yourself and you'll click in action
and thought.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
I told you today during lunch it's not if then,
it's when and then. We like to say when. If then,
we like to say when and then now because because
when this happens, then I'm going to do that because
you know, darn well.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I like that attitude.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
It's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Well, I like the attitude when you put your gun
on every day. So today's the day I'm going to
need this. Yes, that's the same thing. It's not if
I'm going to use it. Today is the day. So
I've already made the decision.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Yes, so I.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Don't have to go through the ooda loop and kind
of work my way through, Gee, what's going on? What
should I do? I've already decided all that.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Right, we have to think when then, and you're you're
one hundred percent right, And don't say that it's not
training either tomay, because when you're sitting in your chair
and you're thinking about things, even if you're watching some
ridiculous movie. Oh, I would do this instead. That's training.
You see what's happening, you watch what happens on the news.
You think about all those different things. You know, I
(11:33):
would shoot him through the window, I would shoot him
through the door. I would have you're working on your
decision making skills, right, Yes, you're thinking about all that stuff.
You're training your brain because you know your body won't
go where the mind hasn't been. And you're always you
should always be taking yourself somewhere.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I got scooped. But this is why we come here,
because you think about cool stuff like this that we
don't and then you know how to teach it. And
then with the luck, maybe at the end of the
week I'll be able to teach a little bit of it.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
I think you'll hop you it'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Thanks Chris, all right, we'll be right back with more
gun talk.
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Speaker 6 (13:12):
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(13:34):
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Speaker 7 (13:43):
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Speaker 2 (14:23):
If you are one of the people at the class
Thursday Friday, the Diagnostic Pistol Instructor class, we just finished
here and you're listening, give me a call. I'll lot
to get your take, your range report on this, because
I mean, I've got my take on it, but frankly,
I come to it just a little bit differently. I'm
involved in the process, some part of the team that
puts it on. I mean not that I'm one of
(14:46):
the ones that teaches it, not at all. And I
learned a lot. Somebody said, well, what was it like, Well,
it was intense. I mean not like hard, you know,
people yelling at you intents. It's just there's a lot
of information being dumped into your brain and you're absorbing it,
(15:06):
You're getting it. But what I found is, as I'm shooting,
is the tendency is to go right back to your
old habits. But I guess it's natural, especially if you've
been shooting for fifty plus years like I have, and
you go, you know, it's just when I picked the
gun up, I hold it the same way I've held
it for the last half a century, and now I'm
(15:29):
being told hold it a different way. You know, do this,
put more pressure on this side, work to trigger this way.
It's like, okay, and I see the results. It works
and they're right, and you become a better shooter. Bring
me back up, what does it mean to be a
(15:49):
better shooter? I mean, we got to cover that for
a second. This is not about sitting there, slow fire
and putting round after round in the center of the target.
The goal with this is to become to get to
where you can shoot accurately, but shoot quickly. You don't
shoot fast. And I mean we're talking. One of the
(16:12):
drills is was it ten twelve shots, draw and fire
twelve shots in five seconds? Yeah, we're hammered. For further
back it was ten seconds and then fifteen seconds as
you get further back to allow more time. But up close,
(16:35):
it's like, okay, get that gun out of your holster,
get on target and rock and roll, and it's pop up, pup, pup, pup, pup, pup, pup, pup,
pup up. About that fast, okay? How and when you
speed up is when things fall apart when you speed up,
(16:55):
as when you identify problems with your procedures, with your grip,
with particularly with your trigger. And I would say for me,
about eighty percent of what I was working on the
whole time was trigger manipulation. I'll talk about the click
bang and why you don't want to do that and
trigger we said, just a second, but I do want
(17:15):
to get bred in here. He's calling online four out
of Los Angeles with a range report force. Hey Brett,
what's shooting?
Speaker 8 (17:22):
I the new Herders nine millimeter and twenty two long rifle.
I bought both of them at Brass Pro Shop and
at the nine millime at box of nine and a
box of twenty two. Both shot flawlessly both times.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Now new, I don't know how old you are or
if you were old enough to remember that. Like forty
years ago, Herders was an interesting mail order catalog with
interesting proprietary or brand named m O.
Speaker 9 (17:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (17:55):
I found young on the phone, but I only started
shooting thirty one thirty two years ago.
Speaker 10 (17:59):
I don't remember that.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, this goes way way back. Herders was like, you know,
a series catalog or something like that for outdoor stuff.
So what made you decide to try the Herder's AMMO.
Speaker 8 (18:12):
I I was in bass Pro shop and I saw
that it was new, so I go, well, I've actually
did it for this this radio show. I've reviewed it
before once before. I thought I'd just give it a try.
I've called an AMMO here before, but I just wanted
to get a try because it was new and I
was kind of suspect. I figured I was gonna be
okay to it. I shot it out of my Ruger
(18:32):
ten twenty two nineteen eighty nine Ruber ten twenty two
rifle and a Glock nineteen third gen and thumbs up
to both. To Herder for both their.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
AMMO line outstanding. Well that that's a great range report,
Thanks Brett. I appreciate that, sir. You know, on the
subject of AMMO, uh, fellow shoot next to it. Here's
an interesting story justin uh we kind of partnered up
for the class and he was shooting a see P
two two six six two to six double action single
(19:06):
acts trigger pol which is hard. It's just harder to
master the double action single action trigger pole. But he
was having something interesting going on. I encouraged him to
get the pistol looked at. But one brand of AMMO
just wouldn't run. And I'm talking about a major brand
and other ammo another major brand would run like a
top one did. One didn't. And he was having failures
(19:30):
to extract, which is interesting. So the fired case would
stay in the chamber with one type of AMMO and
the others just ran fine. Justin also, and we're going
to complete a loop here. He brought a couple of
revolvers with him that we got to shoot. And I
(19:50):
will be forever grateful because these were Tiger McKee's personal guns,
and these are choppers that Tiger made tour. Later on
in his life, Tiger started making revolvers, fighting revolvers, and
Tiger's great instructor had him on the show here many
many times. Of course, he died last year, and interestingly enough,
(20:14):
when justin, you know, I helped with those when we
back up, when Tiger died, I helped Gretch and his
wife come up with values for the guns and then
ended up going on a gun broker and being auctioned
off that way to raise money for her, which is great. Well,
Justin didn't know it at the time. I didn't know
who he was at the time, but I was bidding
(20:35):
against him a gun broker, because I was trying to
get those revolvers. And I got to a point where
I said, Okay, that's just far enough. You know, It's
like I don't have to have him, and now it's
at a good place where Gretchen will get some money
for him. So I backed out and Justin got him.
That's fine. And then he shows up over here. He says,
(20:57):
I got those revolvers Tigers have. I said, we know,
I'm the one who's been bidden against you, because really,
son of a gun. So he took a break in the
middle of the day, second day of the class, went
out there during lunch.
Speaker 11 (21:10):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I think it was a lunch may no, maybe it
was after the that's right, it was after the class,
and we fired a few rounds through Tiger's guns. Mandy
were sweet and slick and just serious machines. If I
were going to shoot him a lot, I would shoot
thirty eighths through them, just like every three fifty seven Magnum,
but we shot the full house three fifty seven Magnum.
Shooting him on steel had some fun kind of a
(21:33):
reconnection with their old friend Tiger, and that was that
was fun. So justin thank you for that. I appreciate that.
And man, you improved so much with that DASA gun.
You were rocking that thing at first, having a lot
of trouble with the transition from the double action to
single action, and with instruction and work. I mean he
(21:54):
got to where he was just tearing the heart out
of these targets. It was really impressive. Really didn't matter
what you were shooting, the instructors there could match you
up and help you with it. In my case, they
helped me a bunch. They probably went away say and
you know, there's things we can't do for this guy.
He may be unteachable in some areas, and they're probably
right about that. Helpe you right that. If you get
(22:25):
a chance, hop over to the gun Talk website or
you go over to YouTube where we have our videos.
kJ Kevin Tarnigan and I did a podcast with him
for gun Talk Hunt. We have gun Talk Nation, gun
Talk Hunt, gun Talk Live, different podcasts we do and
kJ is all about hunting. So we had gosh, forty
minutes on that, and we circle the globe. We went
(22:46):
all over the place for different talking about different guns
and AMMO and log shots and all sorts of stuff.
It was fun. We had a good time here in
the studio, So you might just go check that out.
Of course, you can find our videos anywhere you get
streaming online videos, obviously YouTube, but you go to gun
talk dot com, gun talk dot tv, a lot of
(23:06):
different ways, and we have who knows thousands, easily thousands
of videos now I don't know. Yeah, I don't think
we have ten thousand, but we were somewhere short of
that at this point. And they're about everything from self
defense to target shooting, to hunting to cool guns, and
we do get to play with the cool guns. I
actually did a couple of videos this week on guns
(23:29):
we can't talk about yet. They'll be out I think
around Shot Show time, which is coming right up. We're
talking about a month out now for Shot Show when
a lot of new guns are introduced. So there's some
cool stuff going on. There's some innovation happening out there. Hey,
let's go to the phone. It's Paul's with us. Out
of anchorage. On three, Paul, what are you carrying? And why?
(23:53):
I got Paul's road noise? I got his road noise.
Tell you what. Let's grab al On five, we'll get
back to Paul when he picks up his phonder wherever
he ends up. L Little Rock, Arkansas. What's up?
Speaker 10 (24:09):
Well, I just wanted to give you an update.
Speaker 12 (24:12):
I carry a glock nineteen gen five, okay, and I'm
a senior citizen, and I found it kind of hard
to acquisition targets with the standard sites. I was watching
some videos on YouTube and I went ahead and changed
my site to a ghost ring, and I found out
it's a lot easier acquisition to targets with a ghost
(24:33):
ring site than it is with the standard peep sites.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Now, janerally speaking, we use a peep site on a rifle,
but that rear site is back close to our eye
when you're stuck that pistol way out there. You can't
use a small peep site. It's going to be a
pretty big like a big ghost ring thing.
Speaker 9 (24:52):
Huh, it's a ghost ring.
Speaker 12 (24:54):
It is a ghost ring.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
So did you have to change your front site to
raise it up? To align? You get sites aligned?
Speaker 12 (25:04):
It came as a kid, and you change out the
rear sight to the ghost ring, and you change out
to your front site, and it comes as a kid.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
All right, I'm going to ask the question all the
listeners are asking right now. They're saying, but did you
ever consider going to a red dot site?
Speaker 12 (25:23):
I considered that, but I just didn't. I didn't really
want to go to the expense of a red dot,
so I went with a ghost ring. And I really
liked the ghost ring. I've taken it out to qualify
with from my yearly qualifications and did fine with it.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
That is terrific, very interesting. All right, well, I was
it familiar with that, but now I am a ghosting
site on your glock. Thank you. I appreciate the call.
Let's go back and grab Paul. I think we got
him back on and the anchorage al ask hey.
Speaker 9 (25:57):
Paul you there, hire, can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (26:01):
We got you now, So tell me about you and
these little revolvers.
Speaker 9 (26:07):
My little bit d one. That's right, I'm looking what
I have. Usually this is my usual carry one. That's
not my Smith and Smith and Wesson Model four forty two,
my little five shot with an extra three extra three
extra loads and it's Streed loads Steed loaders, and it was.
And I also have a Glock twenty six, but I
(26:30):
don't use them a whole lot.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Usually, I just keeping these keeping my bedroom and just
kind of keeping there. I'm looking at stuff, I'm looking
at other a lot of things that at least it
looks to me in real life, not make beliefs stuff,
but in real life, if you're very accurate and you're
very good at.
Speaker 9 (26:46):
It, and I am, usually you don't need more than that.
You get more than one to three round the given
police officers usually more.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Right, Paul, Hey, Paul, what is what is that background?
Always we're here of all?
Speaker 9 (27:03):
Oh, because I'm driving, I'm one to snow right now?
Oh okay, yeah, it's sound stout fifty below.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Okay, well, you know, and look, I'm going to pick
it up from here because I kind of see where
you're going with this. But that's just too much background
noise for us to really be able to understand you
very well. So I'm going to pick this up. The
idea of using and I've heard this before people say, well,
you know the average shot, you know, average gunfighter is
three shots, or average gun fight is two point two
shots or whatever it is, Well, that's great and if
(27:37):
it works out you're in an average gun fight, more
power to you.
Speaker 11 (27:40):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
And look, there's nothing in the world wrong with saying
I'm going to carry a five shot thirty eight special.
They have. It's particularly the double action only versions. They
have a lot going for them. You can just keep
it in a coat pocket, you can conceal them a
lot of different ways. You if you get into a
clutch and you're having to shove it up against somebody,
you just keep pressing the trigger and it's going to
keep going off. Having said all that, if it were
(28:04):
thirty eight, I would probably want to get the best
plus PMO I could have in it. And speedloaders just
need to practice with them. If you are unfamiliar with speedloaders,
let me recommend, and we actually do this over here
arrange ready, I would recommend you go take a revolver class.
It is so much fun. It is just fun. And
(28:28):
you learn some techniques and some drills and some skills
on reloading and either using you know, speed strips or speedloaders,
and how to carry and how to carry your loaders,
and it's just fun. You kind of figure out what
you can and can't do. And look, if you've got
a three inch barrel, two inch barrel snubby and let
(28:50):
me be short sights on it, there's a limit you're
probably not gonna issued at thirty yards with this. This
is a get get off me gun. At the same time,
I'm gonna do the yeah but what if thing. There
are situations where you may need to make a longer
shut where and people say, yeah, but I know, I
(29:15):
got all the yeah butts, I got it. You know,
if he jumps you, he's probably on top of you.
But what if he's jumping somebody else. What if he
is hitting he's got a crowbar and he's hitting a
woman in the parking lot, and you've decided you're going
to be the guy that makes him stop doing this?
(29:36):
Are you going to run up to snubby range or
are you just going to take care of it from
where you are, which might be fifteen yards, which is
forty five feet? And are you up for that task.
I'm not saying there's a right or wrong here. That's
that's the whole thing. Look, if there were a right
and a wrong and we all knew what it was,
(29:57):
we wouldn't have these conversations, and this would be a
much shorter show. And so we have these conversations about
what what if this, what if that? And we start
doing our what ifs, and we think about compromises. And
that's really what a lot of this is. When we
come back off, we're talk a little bit about compromises
and red dots and iron sights and what can go
(30:21):
wrong and what did go wrong in the Class eight
six six talk gun be right.
Speaker 11 (30:26):
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Speaker 5 (31:08):
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(31:29):
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Speaker 2 (32:51):
I pay attention to what I see is little signs
of culture changes when it comes to guns. I don't
know when it was fifteen years ago, twenty years ago
when Smith and Wesson all line firearms company making old
style guns. When Smith and Wesson announced that they were
(33:11):
making AR fifteen's the M and P fifteen, and I
said on the show, I said, this is a change.
This is a culture change. It is now totally mainstream.
I mean, looking at it from where we are now,
it's hard to understand how big a deal that was
twenty years ago because AR fifteens were kind of stone niche.
(33:36):
And but when Smith and Wesson brought out an AR
fifteen and now they have of course a complete lineup
and they're very good, I said, okay, this is interesting.
So I also found it interesting this week when I
got a news release from Smith and Wesson to talk
about them selling SBRs short barrel rifles basically just shorter
(33:57):
barreled ars. But that of course required hires you to
get an NFA license. If the register that gun pay
the two hundred dollars tax, what would cause that? And
they also are making of course AAR fifteen pistols. That's interesting,
so what would cause that? Well, demand people are interested
(34:22):
in them and the other thing. And we have not
talked about this much. We have talked about the fact
that suppressors. It used to be what six months to
a year a wait for the ATF to process your
application so you could buy a suppressor, and now it's
like three days or a week. Well you know what
(34:43):
else happened. Sbr's got that benefit, and it's a week
three weeks in many cases to get your paperwork on
an SBR. Now, having said that, and I keep thinking, man,
I think it'd be cool to have an SBR. I
think it'd be nice to have a short barrel rifle,
short barrel ar. Here's the problem until they change the rigs.
(35:06):
In most cases, there are some real restrictions about traveling
across state lines with an SBR. And I don't know
exactly what the deal is. You got to apply to
the ATF and get the OKA or something like that,
which is honestly probably the big reason that and of
course having to pay the two hundred dollars tax on it,
(35:28):
the big reason that AR pistols are so popular. You
get an AR fifteen pistol, which has the same length
of barrel, and then you have a stabilizing embrace on it,
which is not a stock exactly, but it's a quasi SBR.
I mean, we know what this is, and that's a
good thing. There's nothing wrong with that, whether it's you know,
(35:48):
in your car, your truck, it's at home. Personally, if
I were shooting one of those, I would definitely want
up pressure on it because let me just tell you,
AR is allowed and a short barrel all R is
really really loud. Now, if somebody can tell me, I'm
just gonna ask you call me and tell me. I
may be missing something here in terms of why an
(36:12):
SBR would be preferable to an AR pistol. Clearly, I've
mean having a real stock would be better. I understand that.
Is it enough better? And also you can kind of
fill in the gap in my knowledge when it comes
to traveling interstate with SBRs, because I know there's a
(36:32):
thing there that you have to do, but I'm not
since I don't have any I don't really know what
that thing is. You can travel interstate with your suppressor,
and there are some states you got to find out
for sure, there's some states where you can't have a suppressure.
But a lot of states, you can most states, I guess,
but yeah, an aar pistol with a brace or collapsible
(36:54):
brace with a can. Particularly these cake ans little short cakens.
Quickly add those are not hearing safe. They are quieter,
but there's still loud enough to damage your hearing. But
you know, if you got a cork going off, better
that than not having anything at all, particularly if it's
going to be in your house. So you could fill
(37:15):
me in. And I do like the idea of it
being a truck gun or how do you say this
correctly without making people lose their minds, A low profile
carry gun, backpack, satchel something you know, if you're going
into an environment where you think you might need that,
(37:36):
of course, you know my standard answer on that, right,
if you're going to a place where you think there's
a probability you're going to need that, then maybe you
might want to reconsider going there in the first place.
I don't know, just just kind of thinking. So red
dots and iron sights, as I say, we had at
least at the start of the class, we had sixteen
(37:56):
students and four of them were using iron sights. It
changed the five when I changed the slide out on
my sig and I went to iron sights on that
I actually had sight the red dot rather on my
other gun on the other slide got wobbly loose. We
(38:17):
had some batteries go out. These are I mean, it's
not a knock on them. It's just this is the reality.
You've got another piece of gear and every time you
add stuff to your gun, you add failure points. It's
just the way it is. Now does what does that mean?
It means you just have to pay a lot more attention.
You got to make sure it's cleaned. You got to
(38:38):
make sure the you know, the windows cleaned, you don't
have oil on it. You got to make sure it's
tightened up. You got to make sure the batteries you
are fresh. You're adding things to it. If that's not
in your wheelhouse, you say, I just don't want to
do that. Fine, just learn to shoot irons, and there's
no reason you can't. With good instruction, you should be
able to shoot irons all most as well as you
(38:59):
can in a dot site almost.
Speaker 10 (39:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
We're talking about it when we come back. We're talking
about SBRs short bare rifles versus AR pistols. And Jim.
During the break, you said, well, you know, you get
your ar pistol in a three hundred blackout and saying yep,
and then put a can on it, yep, and then
(39:24):
you SUPs on the gamo.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
That's what a lot of people do. I don't know
what Michael does, but he's about to tell us. Michael's
in Charlotte, North Carolina. Michael, I understand you do, in
fact have at least one AR pistol.
Speaker 10 (39:35):
Right, yeah, I've got two. But the other thing I'm
gonna say was, I'm also the guy who was helping
you run up the price on tigers choppers were auctions. Yeah,
I ended up with I was actually getting I was
getting to the point where I was afraid I was
gonna win them because I had I'd already decided I bought.
(39:57):
I bought one of his forty five nineteen eleven, and
I bought an ar that he had bought from Clint Smith.
So those are actually the ones I really wanted. But yeah,
I was. I was running the price up with you.
That was fun.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
That is fun. So tell me about your A.
Speaker 10 (40:13):
Pistols, well mineor even stranger than typical. I mean I'm
kind of like you and I like different stuff. These
are a Professional Ordinance, which was a company that's been
out of business for a while, but they don't have
the exact same barrel lock up and the lugs are
slightly different, but it's a seven and a half inch barrel.
(40:33):
It's just fun. There was no inned to spell that word.
We don't speak out loud for them, but they're just fun.
I mean, you're you can you can grab the magazine
or you can prop it over your forearm. And my
nephews love them. We go out to the woods sometimes
we're safe and got a good burm and just run
(40:54):
through twenty thirty mags at a time and excuse me,
round at a time. But it was it was funny
because I was I'd gone down my parents were still alive,
and my dad was having hearing issues. He's sitting in
the house, and you talk about how loud they are.
I had I had a new shotgun I was going
to try out, and I was down there. I went
(41:15):
and told him said, I'm going down the pond and
going to shoot a shotgun, this, that and the other.
And then while I was down there, I thought, well,
you know, I've been having trouble getting this thing to
run right. Let me squirt it down with ballast doll
and just run it with the bolt completely wet. And
then I just and I just had a magazine popped
it in and just started pulling the trigger. And it
turned out the magazine only had twenty four rounds in it.
(41:36):
But the fun part about it was I get back
up to the house. As soon as I walk in
the door, Dad's like, that wasn't no shotgun?
Speaker 9 (41:44):
What have you gotten?
Speaker 10 (41:46):
Twenty four shot? It was so loud that one hundred
and twenty yards away from the house up the hill
and with the doors closed, he could hear enough to
count every shot. So, yeah, they're loud. They're fun.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
It's not like you just got it because they're allowed
and fun exactly.
Speaker 10 (42:07):
They're just they're just a hoot to play with the well,
not play. You have to be safe, but you know what.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I mean, I understand just for recreational shooting, they're fun.
But yeah, and doubling up when you're hearing. Protection is
not about idea do you have and I don't have
but just a few seconds if you have a suppressor for.
Speaker 10 (42:22):
Him, No, but I'm trying. I'm troping to get in
on that Bogo deal before it's over.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Oh the solids a central deal, buy one, get one. Yes, absolutely,
you ought to do that because that's that's a heck
of a deal. So uh for that. Honestly, for what
you're talking about there, I'd probably get a longer can,
not the ca can, because you want to want as
much suppressions you can get with that. Hey, great ranger
for I appreciate that, and I am so glad to
hear that you were one of the other people that
(42:49):
was driving up the price on Tiger's guns on gun broker.
Justin got those choppers and I'm glad you did. I'm
really glad I got you just to shoot those. Those
are very cool, a nice touchstone with Tigers, such a
good guy. If you ever you want a cool book
about guns, Tiger McKee's book is called the Book of
Two Guns. The Book of two Guns, Never seen anything
(43:13):
like it, all written in his handprinting, with his hand
drawings about his journey to learn about martial arts with guns,
defensive use of guns. It deserves a place. If you're
serious about this, or you're interested in defensive use of guns,
you need a copy of the Book of Two Guns
by Tiger McKee. I don't know anybody who's ever got
(43:36):
one who was sorry he or she got it. It's
just that interesting gun talk. Will be right back
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