September 28, 2025 • 43 mins
In This Hour:
-- Barry Todd's nightmare journey to regain his freedom after a self defense gun use.
-- An attack on a Mormon church in Michgan reminds gun owners of the need to be ready.
-- Can you carry where it's prohibited? Sure you can. How to measure the risks.
Gun Talk 09.28.25 Hour 1
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- Barry Todd's nightmare journey to regain his freedom after a self defense gun use.
-- An attack on a Mormon church in Michgan reminds gun owners of the need to be ready.
-- Can you carry where it's prohibited? Sure you can. How to measure the risks.
Gun Talk 09.28.25 Hour 1
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:14):
He was the first and he's still the best. For
thirty years, Tom Gresham has been your trusted source on
all things ballistic, new guns, Second Amendment, personal protection. Be
part of it, Paul, Tom Talk Gun. Now, here's Tom.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
All right, saddle up, buckle up. We got a lot
to talk about today. I'm Tom Gresham. This is gun Talk.
We've got a lot of things going on. I think
the stories that are breaking even as we're speaking right now,
and of course, as always, if you want to be
a part of it, have something to offer, or frankly,
if you disagree with me, that's okay. I'll let you
have the floor for a while. Give me a call
eight sixty six Talk gun or Tom Talk Gun. Yes,
(00:55):
right now as we're speaking, your story breaking out of Michigan.
I'll have an update on in about thirty minutes. We've
got a church shooting, an attack and a church the
church is burning. People have been shot at least one
person dead. Give you a little bit more update on that.
We'll talk about should would you? Could you carry in
(01:16):
a church? As always, the answer is always the same,
it depends. We'll cover that as well. We'll also be
talking about a tragedy that happened to a company in
our industry, a million rounds of ammunition, tens of thousands
of pounds of powder, and thousands millions of primers burned up.
(01:40):
Now we get to that story as well, But first
we ought to talk about and I know a lot
of you carry a gun for self defense, a lot
of you have training, a lot of you have permits,
or you live in a constitutional carry state. We have
talked about this in the past at length, about the aftermath,
what happens afterward. There was one day think for me
to tell you about it, but it's a whole different
(02:02):
thing for you to hear from someone who has gone
through it himself firsthand and gone through the nightmare. We're
joined right now by very Todd. He is the author
of Standard Ground and Barry. I appreciate you being here.
Your military veteran rangers, eighty second Airborne, hundred and first
Airborne done all that stuff and then you get into
the middle of this, this thing that happened in our
(02:23):
limited time available. Why don't you kick it off and
tell us what happened in Arizona.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Well in twenty fourteen, Tom, Well, first of all, thank
you for having me on. And as I was saying,
in twenty fourteen, my wife and I were out with
some friends, just having a nice evening, and then we
were threatened and I was viciously attacked not by one men,
but two twice, one wielding and knife. And when the
police showed up, with no investigation and no due process,
(02:53):
I was the one charge with a tempered murder and
two counts evaggravated assault just because I had a gun.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Did you shoot him? Yes? Okay, so you get charged
and whisk, I assumed, whisk off to jail. At the end,
I should fast forward to the end of the story.
You didn't not getting exonerated. But how long did this take?
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Twenty six months and seventeen days, and then it took
me another five and a half years to clear my
name because I'm the CEO of a national financial advisory firm.
And once you get charged with a felony, getting that
stuff off your records is extremely difficult, and I just
want to say, this is how bad it was. Tom.
They never read me my rights. It was three days
(03:39):
after sitting in jail that my rights were read by
a judge five hundred thousand dollars cash only bond, and
the entire incident was on video cameras, sixteen cameras in
and around the facility that the police had, and they
didn't look at him for twelve days after the incident happened.
In six days after I was charged with those felonies
(04:00):
through a grand jury.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I got to ask the obvious question that I'm sure
you have been asked in a zillion times, how in
the world is this even possible?
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Because where you are no longer presumed innocent anymore, you
were now presumed guilty. The way the system set up
and the underlying system, the laws that have been passed,
allows that presumption of guilt to take place. Propect and
then the prosecutors they no longer act as ministers of
(04:32):
justice when they go into a grand jury, which is
what their title is supposed to be, not prosecutor have
you ever heard the term time where you can and
dietahem sandwich and a grand jury Yep, that's exactly what happens.
The mind went back to the grand jury, not once,
not twice, not three times, but was set back four
times to the grand jury because the prosecutor refused to
(04:54):
show the videos and present the self defense laws for Arizona.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Holy now, so obviously and also in terms of you
all this time, it took it cost you a ton
of money to go through.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
This, Yes it did. It cost me more money. It
cost me nearly four hundred thousand on the personal side,
and another quarter of a million just to clear my
name through the Securities and Exchange Commission. And all this
is in our book. And the reason I wrote the
book is America needs to know what's going on time,
and they need to start standing up to these crazy
(05:32):
prosecutors and these police that don't care about the law.
The detective in the preliminary hearing when my case was
actually dismissed, he said it wasn't his job to know
the law. That was the job of the attorneys and
the judges. Yet he has the authority to arrest you.
Can you believe that?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, I can. And they don't seem It's
not only do they not care, it's just not even
an issue for them that they don't know the law.
It's look, they figure it'll get sorted out later. I'm
just gonna do what I feel like needs to be done,
you know, on the front end, and they will let
the rest of them sort it out later.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And you know a perfect example of
grand jury's run a muck and that police work is
what happened to Daniel Pennie on the New York subway.
Everybody's heard about him. The whole thing was on video.
He had witnesses that were all on his side. I
guarantee you not one of those witnesses or those videos
were showed to the grand jury, because if they had been,
(06:29):
he would have never been indicted in the first place.
It wouldn't have to spend the hundreds of thousands of
dollars that were wasted on a trial that we all
knew he was going to be found not guilty on.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So, Barry, you got your book, Stand Your Grounds available
on Amazon's available at Stand your Ground book dot com.
What's the takeaway for those of us who carry guns
for self protection and have sworn to protect ourselves and
our family. What should we know?
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Number one is no the laws of the state that
you're in. That's the most that's right up there. Number two.
If you get charged in the attorney and the legal
team you hire, remember you're in charge, all right. You
are the boss. Don't depend on the attorneys to know everything.
Walls change all the time. You have to become your
(07:18):
own advocate and lead your team. I had to challenge
my attorney after the third grand jury because he kept
arguing with me on a topic. And then finally I
made him read the law multiple times because I was
paying his salary. And then he called me twenty four
hours later and he said, you know what, you were right.
(07:39):
I was wrong, and he actually weighed my fee the
next quarter because of his error. You have to take
charge of your legal defense. And yes, thank you for
bringing that up.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Tom.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Please go to our website Stand Your groundbook dot com.
You can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Nobooks are
Dorn's Plump Seeing our publisher, and all the proceeds are
going to a foundation that me and my wife and
my legal team has started to help other people that
are wrongfully indicted. We need to start getting money into
(08:13):
the hands of people that are wrongfully indicted because the
cost is so exorbitant. When you're going up against the
municipality of state or a federal jurisdiction on this, they
throw everything at you. They have unlimited resources, and we
need to start getting resources to Americans to defend themselves.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
What are your thoughts on somebody who is stilled caring
having some kind of insurance, our plan, our legal backup,
so that they have some financial resources behind them.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
I totally agree with that. I have it myself with
USCCA Delta defense. I should have had it then I didn't.
As a matter of fact, I saw it six months earlier.
I said, ah, you know the way the laws are.
They actually have a law and are owner that. It's
called defensive display of a firearm. And I used that law.
That law is actually the one to save me. But
(09:07):
the police ignored it and it took a judge making
a finding of fact. And for all your attorney listeners
out there, they'll understand this. He made a finding of
fact after the third grand jury watching the video before
it ever went to trial. My attorney, Michael Kimmer, who's
now deceased, was the number two attorney on the Miranda
(09:29):
rights case in sixty nine and seventy that got that
through the Supreme Court. He said he had never ever
seen a judge make a finding of fact in his
fifty years of jurisprudence prior to going to trial. It
was unbelievable because he got so frustrated with that inept
prosecutor who was just maliciously prosecuting me.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Very last thing. Here. A lot of us go through life.
We follow the rules, we obeyed the law. We're the
good guys. We think we don't really need that kind
of protection because I'm a good guy. I'm gonna do
everything right and that's enough.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
That's not true, especially not in today's society. Look what's happening.
Look at this crazy person that's shooting up the church
in there. We need to put all of those folks
in our prayers this morning, just like with me, all
of us we need. The number one thing we need
to do is get on our knees every day and
pray to God to protect our families, our country, and
(10:28):
our property, everything and our neighbors. And number two, be
prepared because they will throw everything at you. Look at
what they did to Donald Trump. Ninety one felonies ninety
one fellon have you ever heard such thing? They were
digging up stuff that made no sense. They created violations
of the law out of thin air. It's a totally
(10:49):
a third.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
They just wanted him to go away, Very Todd, I
appreciate you spending some time here. The title of the
book is Stand Your Ground. You can pick it up
at Amazon or Standard ground book dot com. Thank you
so much for taking the time to write this and
to share your story.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
All right, God bless you, Thank you for having me
on toime, and have a great day again. Have those
folks up there in your prayer with these shootings going
on across the country, with all these crazy maniacs.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Absolutely thanks sir. All right, open lines now, eat six
to six Talk gun or Tom talk gun. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 6 (11:31):
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Speaker 8 (12:31):
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Speaker 9 (13:02):
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Speaker 10 (13:34):
This is David Kodria from the warre on Guns Notes
from the Resistance. I want to congratulate Tom Gresham for
thirty consistent and information packed years of gun talk. Tom
yours is an influential, widely respected voice, and the information
and insights you've regularly given us over the decades have
helped me and all of us be better prepared and
equipped in our efforts to defend and promote the right
(13:57):
of the people to keep bare arms. So thank you.
And here's the best thing yet to come.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Right back with you here number here is eighty six
to six Talk gun If you want to join me.
If you've got a thought question, when you go to
church do you carry your gun? And why either way,
whether you do where you don't, Just curious why we
have the story breaking out of Michigan right and look,
(14:27):
any details I give out and now are liable to
be proven to be wrong or not quite right, because
it's a breaking story. Evidently crashed his truck into a church,
shot some people, including youngsters. The church is on fire.
We don't at this point know exactly how that started.
(14:48):
Or maybe they do, and maybe that has broken. While
I'm on the air here in just a few minutes,
I'm gonna have somebody in here from Michigan telling me,
telling all of us what the Michigan they often are
not exactly what you think. People say, well, it's I
guess the law to carry a gun in a church, right? Yeah,
(15:10):
But this falls very heavily in the ybbot category. Question
do you always obey all laws? Do you always obey
all of the laws? Are there laws that you are
okay breaking? Are there rules that you don't feel that
(15:36):
you are obligated to follow. Are there laws that you
judge would put you in your family in danger and
therefore you're willing to accept possible consequences of breaking that
law to avoid the worst consequences, don't break the law.
(16:01):
You see where I'm going with this, So just question
for you, how do you handle that? I mean, we
all look at that, we see the signs. Do I
carry in there? Do I not carry in there? Is
it legal? Is it just a sign that has no
force of law, or is there actually a state law
that says I can't carry in there? And if so,
what do I do about that? We'll cover that in
(16:24):
a bit. There are many churches now that have church
security teams. If you're on a church that has a team,
If you're in a church, and if you're on the team,
can I suggest that you really really push to make
sure everybody's actually quite good, not just there, but actually trained,
(16:45):
like regularly trained, like monthly practice sessions, real world training.
Not just can you somehow get your gun into your
hand and hit a target eventually, but can you draw
quickly enough and hit a target every time? One hundred
percent of the time, trust me, one hundred percent of
the time. That's the minimum. And you can't be missing
(17:10):
because you got other people around. This is tough stuff,
This is serious stuff, and you got to take it seriously.
For you individually, what can you reasonably expect to do
(17:32):
in terms of your shooting ability? You decide you're going
to carry, and people say, well, you know, the average
gun fight's only three yards okay or three feet okay, great,
But now you're in a church or a movie theater
or any place. And it's not three feet and it's
(17:56):
not three yards, it's forty feet or forty yards. Do
you have the ability yourself? Do you have the equipment
that is your pistol, your ammunition, your sighting system to
(18:16):
hit a target at that distance? Can you stop the attack?
Notice how I phrased that. That's not happenstance. I'm not
being casual with my words. The goal is to stop
the attack. Whether you think it is a ye, do
(18:41):
you hit the target or whatever. Look, ultimately, that's what
it's about, stopping the attack. Hey, let's go talk to
Brian out of Idaho online too. I know Brian, he's
a friend. Hey Brian, Hey, you do a partner.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
I am doing well. How are you, sir?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
I am good. I got a couple of minutes before
you go for it.
Speaker 11 (18:59):
Cool.
Speaker 12 (19:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
So I just got back from the Guardian conference in
Oklahoma City and I thought i'd give you a range
report on that.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Okay, yeah, And you're following this story out of Michigan
right now.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
I take it, yes, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
And for those should know that Brian is the farm's
instructor and we met at Range Ready Studios doing a
class down there together, So okay, give me the range
report place.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Yeah, So the Guardian Conference is now. I think this
was the fifth year. It's an annual thing. It's the
last days of summer in Oklahoma City at the Great
Oklahoma City Gun Club, and essentially it's there's a wide
variety of skill levels there, but the instructor instructor skills
are top notch. They are elite instructors from all over
(19:42):
the country. They specialize in their particular disciplines and so
you can go get a kind of a buffet style
of training. So, for example, Chuck Haggard was there. He's
a ballistics expert, he's an O C expert. He did
classes on both so that's pepper spray. There were shotgun classes,
they've entered bos AR fifteen classes and then all kinds
(20:02):
of handgun classes as well. So it's a really good
place to go if you know, it's a good place
to be if you know how to work from the
whole street you kind of need to be at that point.
But from there on it's fantastic instruction.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
All right, let me ask you, you're a firem's instructor
and yet you go get instruction from different places. Why
do you do that.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Because I don't know what I don't know. I mean
that always applies. And so in order for me to
get better as an instructor, it's really good to go
not only see how instructors do things, but also see
how the students are learning. That will help me do
a better job in my delivery. You know, what do
students struggle with? And how do competent, top level instructors
handle these particular issues and help students, you know, help
(20:46):
help them navigate those difficulties along the way.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, and Brian, I've always thought people said, we know
you went back and took the guns like two fifty
class three times. Yeah, you know what. And all I
have to do is pick up one thing out of
that asked And it was worthwhile to me just that
one thing may be exactly what I need.
Speaker 5 (21:05):
Yep, absolutely, And the other the other thing is it's
just the nicest bunch of people you can hang out with.
I mean, there's there's the bullpen, the kind of the cafeteria,
and I can't tell you how many people I've seen
that I remember from the other two years that I've
been there, and they remember me and it's just like
the friendliest room in the planet on the planet. It's
it's a really great atmosphere with other people who are
(21:26):
just curious and just want to learn and do their
best and be responsible gun owners.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
There you go, Brian, Thanks for Carle. I appreciate the
range report, sir, you'd be safe out there all right.
In just a minute, we're going to have an update
on what the laws are in Michigan. We're watching this
story develop out of Michigan. A fellow has attacked the church.
Looks like he has shot multiple people. Maybe I'm seeing
one report now, maybe as many as ten people. One
person's dead. The church is on fire, and I've seen
(21:52):
people online say yeah, but you know you can't carry
the church. Remember, can't is not the same as not allowed.
And what happens if you do carry and it's not
allowed and you're caught. Well, we'll have the details on
that when we come back. I'm Tom Gresham. This is
gun Talk.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Now.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Normally I would be at the Gun Rights Policy Conference
right now. It's going on right now in Salt Lake City,
and I'm always there, except that this year I'm not
because i joined Moose Tag. You know, the story, and
I'm going to be headed up to Moose Country tomorrow
and couldn't make the schedules gel quite so, but it's
going on and that's where the experts are now. As
(22:43):
you know, right now, there's a story breaking out of Michigan.
A fella has crashed a truck into a church, shot
a number of people. The church is on fire and
we're waiting to find out more details. And I was curious.
I said, well, you know, can you carry in a
church in Michigan or what are the law there? So
we reached out to Gun Right's posse conference found the
(23:04):
right guy. Jared Coin joins us right now. He's been
involved in writing the legislative side of things on two
A on gun issues in Michigan for about fifteen years. Jared,
thank you for joining us. I hope everything's going okay
at gRPC.
Speaker 11 (23:18):
It's going great. Tom, thank you for having me on.
I wish it was under better circumstances though.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah. No, I talked to you a little bit early
and Clark Oppotion put us together and I appreciate Clark,
and I'll have more information that he's shared with me.
But right now, and people are saying you know, well
why don't you carry you there? And I had people
online say, well, you know it's illegal to carry in
a church in Michigan, and so I said, well, let's
talk to Jared. So what is the status, what's the
situation there?
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Okay?
Speaker 11 (23:45):
So in Wayman terms, the way Michigan works is, if
you have a concealed pistol license, there's two categories. There's
a standard license and exempt license. Now, the exempt license
isn't something you can really apply for, it's not some
than that is discretionary. Even so, the county clerk is
the licensing authority, and you have to fit an enumerated
(24:07):
category to be able to carry in places that's otherwise
banned for concealed pistols. So it includes private investigators, state
court judges, retired police correctional officers. It's about fifteen categories
of people in there.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Okay.
Speaker 11 (24:26):
So generally it's unlawful to carry a concealed pistol into
what we call pistol free zones. It only applies to
concealed pistols under a license. A church is in there, however,
the church is the only place listed where you can
get permission to carry concealed in there, so as you
could imagine, your mileage is going to vary. From my understanding,
(24:50):
a lot of Catholic churches will say either the diocese
or their bishop or someone says no, we can't. I
know of some Christian churches where their pastor says, sure,
it's great. I don't know how the Mormon churches work
out there, but generally speaking, the average person can't conceal
carry a pistol into a church. Now, we do have
(25:11):
what's called firearm free zones, and with the exception of
polling places, that entire statute does not apply if you
have a concealed pistol license. So what that would mean is,
if you have a concealed pistol license, you could carry
a pistol openly into a church. But most people aren't
going to openly.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, okay, so that's probably not going to happen, all right.
So here's the real questions this, and as adults, we're
faced with making choices every single day. And the question
I have for you is what is the penalty if
you carry your concealed pistol into a church where they
have not said it's okay, and you get caught whatever charge, convicted,
(25:57):
what could happen to you?
Speaker 11 (25:59):
Okay, Well, the first time you get caught, it's a
civil infraction, and you will lose your CPL for six months.
The second time it's a misdemeanor, I believe it's punishable.
It's either ninety days or up to a year. I
don't recall exactly, and you lose your license for I
(26:20):
believe it's a year. But the third time it's a felony.
It's a four year felony, and I believe that finds
up to five thousand dollars, And there's no time limit
where say, if you get caught once and then it
goes a year or two, like that will always follow you, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
But the first time it's an infraction, it's a civil penalty.
It's a five hundred dollars fine, and you lose your
carry permit for six months. It's like would would you
say it's more like a traffic violation than anything.
Speaker 11 (26:48):
Ah, it's more traffic than criminal in a sense. However,
I would argue that losing the license for six months
is still severe for a lot of people, because if
you don't have that license, you can't even purchase a
pistol privately. Without getting a permit to purchase each time
you want to get.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
A business in Michigan. Yeah, but I guess the argument
would be yes. But for them to get to that
point on me, it would mean I had to pull
my epistol in an act of self defense or protecting someone.
And now a lot of us would say yeah, and
that's worth it.
Speaker 11 (27:24):
Yes, And that's an individual judgment call someone's going to
have to make. The only thing I would point out
to you, though, is all the Michigan is a stand
your ground state. It's predicated upon being in a place
that you have a legal right to be at. So
that could call into question do you have a legal
right to be there if you're violating the Firearms Act right?
(27:47):
I don't know. We haven't seen that case yet.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
So if a person is a member of a church,
he or she could go to the church and say, hey,
in light of what just happened here, you need to
issue a statement that says that it's okay for people
who have a carry permit to carry in church. That
would be a possibility.
Speaker 11 (28:04):
I would implore every church to do that. However, we
know many of them aren't going to do that. And
on the legislative front. We've tried to change stuff like
that over the years. But right now we have a
Republican House, a Democrat Senate, and a Democrat governor. The
entire government is up on the ballot in twenty twenty six,
so hopefully we get a better crop of people.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Elections matter.
Speaker 11 (28:27):
They certainly do. As we saw in twenty two to
twenty four, the Democrats had a trifecta for the first
time in forty years, and sad to say, the days
of pro gun Democrats. Sadly it's gone. We used to
have great members on the Democrats side. We just don't now.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah, exactly right. Well, Jared Quin, thank you so much
for filling us in. It's good to get some information
from somebody who's been on the ground for so long
in Michigan. Tell us what the laws are there.
Speaker 11 (28:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
All right, you have a great gun rights policy conference.
It's just about wrapping up right now as we speak.
All right, eight six' six talk Gun how do you
do your? Analysis how do you decide whether you are
or are not going to carry when there's a no gun?
Speaker 13 (29:14):
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Com all right back with you.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Here our number here is eight six Six talk gun
Or Tom. Talkgun I'm Tom. Gresham you can go over
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Whatever we give away a lot of guns and if
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(32:19):
as you, can because there's some really good. Ones in,
addition we do you probably know a lot of, videos
lots and lots of. Videos we have a full television,
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and on and. On so we're cranking out videos all the,
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(32:42):
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It and you can find. Us look for Gun talk on,
YouTube probably the easiest, place but really anywhere you get your,
videos you could find them. There So i'm watching the,
news the story out Of, michigan and you got people who, say,
(33:04):
well you, know but you can't carry in, church to
WHICH i kindly, say the hell you. Can't and then
you may, say well you can't. Legal that's a whole
different thing whether it's legal or. Not but you certainly can.
Carry whether you choose to or, not it's going to
be your own personal. DECISION i can't make that decision for.
(33:24):
YOU i can't tell you how to weigh the, risks
because that's really what we're talking. About it's the risk
of being caught and punished for carrying in a gun
free zone versus the risk of being caught and shot
(33:45):
and killed by a maniacal. Murderer when you come out
of the end of either one of those, scenarios which
one would you prefer to have gone? Through. Duh so
a lot of, people myself, included have developed vision. Problems that,
(34:08):
is we tend to not see the no gun. Signs. Now,
look if it's a police, station, courthouse the places where
you are legally prohibited from, going and there's a real
serious downside to, it then, yeah. No also they're generally more,
secure they have metal, detectors or they got cops all
over the. Place not a place THAT i worry about a. Lot,
(34:31):
also you gotta, know like our first guests, said you
got to know what the laws. Are in a lot of,
places in a lot of, states a no gun sign
on the door has zero weight in the. Law the
only places that are off limits are those that are
(34:52):
spelled out in the. Law but you have to do the,
research you have to do the. Digging you you have
to have the responsibility to know what the law. Is
hope if that's a lot to know, Yet, no, kidd guess.
What carrying a gun's a big. Responsibility if you're not
(35:15):
up to doing a little bit of, research maybe you're
not up to handling the responsibility of carrying a gun for.
Protection you're taking on a big. Responsibility not only do
you have to do it, well you have to do it.
Safely you have to be competent at, it WHICH i
(35:35):
will Spend i'll always end up going right back to
are you getting recurrent? Training? Not, OH i took a
concealed carry class twenty years, Ago big. Whoop you probably
don't know. Squat you probably really are pretty sucky at. This, Honestly,
(35:58):
now if you tell, me ALL i shoot three, GUN i? Shoot, okay,
great you're a competitive. Shooter you're handling your, gun you're
drawing all the, time all, right got, it no. Problem
but if you took a class twenty years ago and
you haven't taken another, class and you go to the
range once or twice a, year, yeah you're not really
up to the. Task i'm. SORRY i don't mean to
(36:22):
hurt your. Feelings we, RELAX i don't really. Care if
you get your feelings, hurt maybe it makes you stop
and do a little, introspection, say Maybe i'm not as
good AS i need to. Be here's my. Question how
confident do you feel about your ability to stop and
(36:46):
attack from someone who is, thirty forty or fifty yards
away one hundred and fifty? Feet do you feel like
you could put shots on? Target let's make it shooting much.
Shorter let's make it twenty yards sixty. Feet that should
not be difficult with the gun that you carry every you,
(37:12):
know whatever you carry, whenever you carry, it every, day every,
week every, month every. Year do you feel, confident confident
that you can put all shots on, target slow, fire
take as much time as you. Want we're not even
gonna put the stress of a shooting situation here at twenty.
Yards if you, say, well probably maybe not good. Enough
(37:37):
this is not a difficult. Test twenty yards man sized,
Target take all the time you. Want the Point And
i'm not really not trying to talk to anybody. Down
i'm trying not trying to make fun of anybody or
or detegrate. Anybody it's just THAT i want you to
(37:58):
have a realistic look and maybe a real re evaluation
of where you are and maybe make a commitment to,
Say i'm, Okay i'm going to get back in the.
Game i'm going to take another, Class i'm going to
up my. Gear i'm going to go to a red dot.
Site i'm going to carry every single, day And i'm
(38:24):
going to carry where EVERYWHERE i legally, can and maybe
some places Where i'm really not supposed. To but the
penalties are pretty. Slim maybe it's the penalty is a small,
fine something like a traffic. Violation, okay, Fine i'll do.
That i'll take that Chance firsus not having my gun
(38:46):
when somebody comes in to kill, everybody including me and my.
Family that's an easy decision for. ME i don't know
where you follow on that, one but that's easy for.
Me my number here Is Tom Talk. Gun that's, ME
I Talk. Gun what's your take on. This there are
(39:11):
so many new guns coming out it probably is worthwhile
for you to start paying. Attention you may, say, Well
i'm not in the, Market, OKAY i get, It and,
yet how would you know if something came out that
really offered some improvement for, you whether it's a, rifle
(39:33):
shotgun or. Pistol if we're continuing our conversation about self
defense with, guns primarily with, handguns is there a gun
that fits your hand? Better is there a gun that
has a better. Trigger is there one that maybe fits
into a niche between easy to carry and full size
with the range that's better than what you're doing. NOW
(39:59):
a lot of people for small guns because they're easy to.
CARRY i understand small guns are also harder to, shoot
harder to shoot, well harder to shoot. Accurately they recoil.
More with iron, sights they have a shorter sight. Radius
that's the distance between the front sight and the rear.
(40:19):
Sight the shorter that distance, is the harder it is
to shoot. Accurately it's one of the reasons that rifles
are easier to shoot accurately than. Handguns red, dots by the,
way eliminate that. Issue red dots basically make us better.
Shooters red dots or optical sights wring their own challenges or.
(40:42):
Compromises you've got to have a battery working in, there
and if the battery goes, dead you got no. Dot
some people, sometimes and, Look i'm one of, THOSE i
can argue either, way understand, them like them use them
in the YE i can, say, yeah DO i really
want to make sure that the batteries working all the.
(41:04):
TIME i don't. Know you figure it. Out you got
to make that. Call but WHEN i see people, saying,
WELL I i carry a five shot, Snubby, okay, cool get.
IT i understand. It i've got. Them but when a
guy comes crashes his truck in the front door and
(41:26):
proceeds to start trying to kill everybody in there is
a five shots? Snubby what you want to have in your? Hand, Yeah,
tama what's the likelihood of? That? Really, really are we
going to do? That what's the likelihood of? That the
likelihood is you're never going to need it for self.
(41:47):
Defense but if you decide you're going to have it
for self, defense then, okay have it for self defense
for yourself and for the people around. You have something
will work For, unfortunately more and more imaginable. Situations you,
remember the kid who shot the mass shooter at forty
(42:13):
yards in the mall mass shoot had a. Rifle eli
had his. Glock but he hit this guy a couple
of times with the first four shots at forty plus,
yards then moved in on him and shot him multiple
times after that because the guy kept trying to get
to his gun forty yards with iron. Sights, well one
(42:41):
of the odds of needing. That, really let's not do.
That let's saddle up with the responsibility Of if you
Said i'm the one who's going to protect, Myself i'm
gonna protect my, Family i'm gonna protect my, Wife i'm
gonna protect my, Children i'm gonna protect my, husband then
be that person and do what is required of that
(43:05):
person from an equipment, standpoint from a training, standpoint from
a carry everywhere, standpoint from knowing how to, draw from,
concealment from being fast and good you decided to take
on that. Responsibility do you really want the responsibility or
are you a? Pretender and if me saying this makes you,
(43:27):
MAD i am really glad because maybe if you get
mad at, me then you look at yourself and figure
Out i'm not doing EVERYTHING i should, Do and if
that caused you to go be, better then that's. Great
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Speaker 2 (00:14):
He was the first and he's still the best. For
thirty years, Tom Gresham has been your trusted source on
all things ballistic, new guns, Second Amendment, personal protection. Be
part of it, Paul, Tom Talk Gun. Now, here's Tom.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
All right, saddle up, buckle up. We got a lot
to talk about today. I'm Tom Gresham. This is gun Talk.
We've got a lot of things going on. I think
the stories that are breaking even as we're speaking right now,
and of course, as always, if you want to be
a part of it, have something to offer, or frankly,
if you disagree with me, that's okay. I'll let you
have the floor for a while. Give me a call
eight sixty six Talk gun or Tom Talk Gun. Yes,
(00:55):
right now as we're speaking, your story breaking out of Michigan.
I'll have an update on in about thirty minutes. We've
got a church shooting, an attack and a church the
church is burning. People have been shot at least one
person dead. Give you a little bit more update on that.
We'll talk about should would you? Could you carry in
(01:16):
a church? As always, the answer is always the same,
it depends. We'll cover that as well. We'll also be
talking about a tragedy that happened to a company in
our industry, a million rounds of ammunition, tens of thousands
of pounds of powder, and thousands millions of primers burned up.
(01:40):
Now we get to that story as well, But first
we ought to talk about and I know a lot
of you carry a gun for self defense, a lot
of you have training, a lot of you have permits,
or you live in a constitutional carry state. We have
talked about this in the past at length, about the aftermath,
what happens afterward. There was one day think for me
to tell you about it, but it's a whole different
(02:02):
thing for you to hear from someone who has gone
through it himself firsthand and gone through the nightmare. We're
joined right now by very Todd. He is the author
of Standard Ground and Barry. I appreciate you being here.
Your military veteran rangers, eighty second Airborne, hundred and first
Airborne done all that stuff and then you get into
the middle of this, this thing that happened in our
(02:23):
limited time available. Why don't you kick it off and
tell us what happened in Arizona.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Well in twenty fourteen, Tom, Well, first of all, thank
you for having me on. And as I was saying,
in twenty fourteen, my wife and I were out with
some friends, just having a nice evening, and then we
were threatened and I was viciously attacked not by one men,
but two twice, one wielding and knife. And when the
police showed up, with no investigation and no due process,
(02:53):
I was the one charge with a tempered murder and
two counts evaggravated assault just because I had a gun.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Did you shoot him? Yes? Okay, so you get charged
and whisk, I assumed, whisk off to jail. At the end,
I should fast forward to the end of the story.
You didn't not getting exonerated. But how long did this take?
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Twenty six months and seventeen days, and then it took
me another five and a half years to clear my
name because I'm the CEO of a national financial advisory firm.
And once you get charged with a felony, getting that
stuff off your records is extremely difficult, and I just
want to say, this is how bad it was. Tom.
They never read me my rights. It was three days
(03:39):
after sitting in jail that my rights were read by
a judge five hundred thousand dollars cash only bond, and
the entire incident was on video cameras, sixteen cameras in
and around the facility that the police had, and they
didn't look at him for twelve days after the incident happened.
In six days after I was charged with those felonies
(04:00):
through a grand jury.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I got to ask the obvious question that I'm sure
you have been asked in a zillion times, how in
the world is this even possible?
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Because where you are no longer presumed innocent anymore, you
were now presumed guilty. The way the system set up
and the underlying system, the laws that have been passed,
allows that presumption of guilt to take place. Propect and
then the prosecutors they no longer act as ministers of
(04:32):
justice when they go into a grand jury, which is
what their title is supposed to be, not prosecutor have
you ever heard the term time where you can and
dietahem sandwich and a grand jury Yep, that's exactly what happens.
The mind went back to the grand jury, not once,
not twice, not three times, but was set back four
times to the grand jury because the prosecutor refused to
(04:54):
show the videos and present the self defense laws for Arizona.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Holy now, so obviously and also in terms of you
all this time, it took it cost you a ton
of money to go through.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
This, Yes it did. It cost me more money. It
cost me nearly four hundred thousand on the personal side,
and another quarter of a million just to clear my
name through the Securities and Exchange Commission. And all this
is in our book. And the reason I wrote the
book is America needs to know what's going on time,
and they need to start standing up to these crazy
(05:32):
prosecutors and these police that don't care about the law.
The detective in the preliminary hearing when my case was
actually dismissed, he said it wasn't his job to know
the law. That was the job of the attorneys and
the judges. Yet he has the authority to arrest you.
Can you believe that?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, I can. And they don't seem It's
not only do they not care, it's just not even
an issue for them that they don't know the law.
It's look, they figure it'll get sorted out later. I'm
just gonna do what I feel like needs to be done,
you know, on the front end, and they will let
the rest of them sort it out later.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And you know a perfect example of
grand jury's run a muck and that police work is
what happened to Daniel Pennie on the New York subway.
Everybody's heard about him. The whole thing was on video.
He had witnesses that were all on his side. I
guarantee you not one of those witnesses or those videos
were showed to the grand jury, because if they had been,
(06:29):
he would have never been indicted in the first place.
It wouldn't have to spend the hundreds of thousands of
dollars that were wasted on a trial that we all
knew he was going to be found not guilty on.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So, Barry, you got your book, Stand Your Grounds available
on Amazon's available at Stand your Ground book dot com.
What's the takeaway for those of us who carry guns
for self protection and have sworn to protect ourselves and
our family. What should we know?
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Number one is no the laws of the state that
you're in. That's the most that's right up there. Number two.
If you get charged in the attorney and the legal
team you hire, remember you're in charge, all right. You
are the boss. Don't depend on the attorneys to know everything.
Walls change all the time. You have to become your
(07:18):
own advocate and lead your team. I had to challenge
my attorney after the third grand jury because he kept
arguing with me on a topic. And then finally I
made him read the law multiple times because I was
paying his salary. And then he called me twenty four
hours later and he said, you know what, you were right.
(07:39):
I was wrong, and he actually weighed my fee the
next quarter because of his error. You have to take
charge of your legal defense. And yes, thank you for
bringing that up.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Tom.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Please go to our website Stand Your groundbook dot com.
You can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Nobooks are
Dorn's Plump Seeing our publisher, and all the proceeds are
going to a foundation that me and my wife and
my legal team has started to help other people that
are wrongfully indicted. We need to start getting money into
(08:13):
the hands of people that are wrongfully indicted because the
cost is so exorbitant. When you're going up against the
municipality of state or a federal jurisdiction on this, they
throw everything at you. They have unlimited resources, and we
need to start getting resources to Americans to defend themselves.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
What are your thoughts on somebody who is stilled caring
having some kind of insurance, our plan, our legal backup,
so that they have some financial resources behind them.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
I totally agree with that. I have it myself with
USCCA Delta defense. I should have had it then I didn't.
As a matter of fact, I saw it six months earlier.
I said, ah, you know the way the laws are.
They actually have a law and are owner that. It's
called defensive display of a firearm. And I used that law.
That law is actually the one to save me. But
(09:07):
the police ignored it and it took a judge making
a finding of fact. And for all your attorney listeners
out there, they'll understand this. He made a finding of
fact after the third grand jury watching the video before
it ever went to trial. My attorney, Michael Kimmer, who's
now deceased, was the number two attorney on the Miranda
(09:29):
rights case in sixty nine and seventy that got that
through the Supreme Court. He said he had never ever
seen a judge make a finding of fact in his
fifty years of jurisprudence prior to going to trial. It
was unbelievable because he got so frustrated with that inept
prosecutor who was just maliciously prosecuting me.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Very last thing. Here. A lot of us go through life.
We follow the rules, we obeyed the law. We're the
good guys. We think we don't really need that kind
of protection because I'm a good guy. I'm gonna do
everything right and that's enough.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
That's not true, especially not in today's society. Look what's happening.
Look at this crazy person that's shooting up the church
in there. We need to put all of those folks
in our prayers this morning, just like with me, all
of us we need. The number one thing we need
to do is get on our knees every day and
pray to God to protect our families, our country, and
(10:28):
our property, everything and our neighbors. And number two, be
prepared because they will throw everything at you. Look at
what they did to Donald Trump. Ninety one felonies ninety
one fellon have you ever heard such thing? They were
digging up stuff that made no sense. They created violations
of the law out of thin air. It's a totally
(10:49):
a third.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
They just wanted him to go away, Very Todd, I
appreciate you spending some time here. The title of the
book is Stand Your Ground. You can pick it up
at Amazon or Standard ground book dot com. Thank you
so much for taking the time to write this and
to share your story.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
All right, God bless you, Thank you for having me
on toime, and have a great day again. Have those
folks up there in your prayer with these shootings going
on across the country, with all these crazy maniacs.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Absolutely thanks sir. All right, open lines now, eat six
to six Talk gun or Tom talk gun. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 6 (11:31):
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Speaker 7 (12:02):
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(12:24):
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Speaker 8 (12:31):
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Speaker 9 (13:02):
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Speaker 10 (13:34):
This is David Kodria from the warre on Guns Notes
from the Resistance. I want to congratulate Tom Gresham for
thirty consistent and information packed years of gun talk. Tom
yours is an influential, widely respected voice, and the information
and insights you've regularly given us over the decades have
helped me and all of us be better prepared and
equipped in our efforts to defend and promote the right
(13:57):
of the people to keep bare arms. So thank you.
And here's the best thing yet to come.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Right back with you here number here is eighty six
to six Talk gun If you want to join me.
If you've got a thought question, when you go to
church do you carry your gun? And why either way,
whether you do where you don't, Just curious why we
have the story breaking out of Michigan right and look,
(14:27):
any details I give out and now are liable to
be proven to be wrong or not quite right, because
it's a breaking story. Evidently crashed his truck into a church,
shot some people, including youngsters. The church is on fire.
We don't at this point know exactly how that started.
(14:48):
Or maybe they do, and maybe that has broken. While
I'm on the air here in just a few minutes,
I'm gonna have somebody in here from Michigan telling me,
telling all of us what the Michigan they often are
not exactly what you think. People say, well, it's I
guess the law to carry a gun in a church, right? Yeah,
(15:10):
But this falls very heavily in the ybbot category. Question
do you always obey all laws? Do you always obey
all of the laws? Are there laws that you are
okay breaking? Are there rules that you don't feel that
(15:36):
you are obligated to follow. Are there laws that you
judge would put you in your family in danger and
therefore you're willing to accept possible consequences of breaking that
law to avoid the worst consequences, don't break the law.
(16:01):
You see where I'm going with this, So just question
for you, how do you handle that? I mean, we
all look at that, we see the signs. Do I
carry in there? Do I not carry in there? Is
it legal? Is it just a sign that has no
force of law, or is there actually a state law
that says I can't carry in there? And if so,
what do I do about that? We'll cover that in
(16:24):
a bit. There are many churches now that have church
security teams. If you're on a church that has a team,
If you're in a church, and if you're on the team,
can I suggest that you really really push to make
sure everybody's actually quite good, not just there, but actually trained,
(16:45):
like regularly trained, like monthly practice sessions, real world training.
Not just can you somehow get your gun into your
hand and hit a target eventually, but can you draw
quickly enough and hit a target every time? One hundred
percent of the time, trust me, one hundred percent of
the time. That's the minimum. And you can't be missing
(17:10):
because you got other people around. This is tough stuff,
This is serious stuff, and you got to take it seriously.
For you individually, what can you reasonably expect to do
(17:32):
in terms of your shooting ability? You decide you're going
to carry, and people say, well, you know, the average
gun fight's only three yards okay or three feet okay, great,
But now you're in a church or a movie theater
or any place. And it's not three feet and it's
(17:56):
not three yards, it's forty feet or forty yards. Do
you have the ability yourself? Do you have the equipment
that is your pistol, your ammunition, your sighting system to
(18:16):
hit a target at that distance? Can you stop the attack?
Notice how I phrased that. That's not happenstance. I'm not
being casual with my words. The goal is to stop
the attack. Whether you think it is a ye, do
(18:41):
you hit the target or whatever. Look, ultimately, that's what
it's about, stopping the attack. Hey, let's go talk to
Brian out of Idaho online too. I know Brian, he's
a friend. Hey Brian, Hey, you do a partner.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
I am doing well. How are you, sir?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
I am good. I got a couple of minutes before
you go for it.
Speaker 11 (18:59):
Cool.
Speaker 12 (19:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
So I just got back from the Guardian conference in
Oklahoma City and I thought i'd give you a range
report on that.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Okay, yeah, And you're following this story out of Michigan
right now.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
I take it, yes, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
And for those should know that Brian is the farm's
instructor and we met at Range Ready Studios doing a
class down there together, So okay, give me the range
report place.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Yeah, So the Guardian Conference is now. I think this
was the fifth year. It's an annual thing. It's the
last days of summer in Oklahoma City at the Great
Oklahoma City Gun Club, and essentially it's there's a wide
variety of skill levels there, but the instructor instructor skills
are top notch. They are elite instructors from all over
(19:42):
the country. They specialize in their particular disciplines and so
you can go get a kind of a buffet style
of training. So, for example, Chuck Haggard was there. He's
a ballistics expert, he's an O C expert. He did
classes on both so that's pepper spray. There were shotgun classes,
they've entered bos AR fifteen classes and then all kinds
(20:02):
of handgun classes as well. So it's a really good
place to go if you know, it's a good place
to be if you know how to work from the
whole street you kind of need to be at that point.
But from there on it's fantastic instruction.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
All right, let me ask you, you're a firem's instructor
and yet you go get instruction from different places. Why
do you do that.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Because I don't know what I don't know. I mean
that always applies. And so in order for me to
get better as an instructor, it's really good to go
not only see how instructors do things, but also see
how the students are learning. That will help me do
a better job in my delivery. You know, what do
students struggle with? And how do competent, top level instructors
handle these particular issues and help students, you know, help
(20:46):
help them navigate those difficulties along the way.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, and Brian, I've always thought people said, we know
you went back and took the guns like two fifty
class three times. Yeah, you know what. And all I
have to do is pick up one thing out of
that asked And it was worthwhile to me just that
one thing may be exactly what I need.
Speaker 5 (21:05):
Yep, absolutely, And the other the other thing is it's
just the nicest bunch of people you can hang out with.
I mean, there's there's the bullpen, the kind of the cafeteria,
and I can't tell you how many people I've seen
that I remember from the other two years that I've
been there, and they remember me and it's just like
the friendliest room in the planet on the planet. It's
it's a really great atmosphere with other people who are
(21:26):
just curious and just want to learn and do their
best and be responsible gun owners.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
There you go, Brian, Thanks for Carle. I appreciate the
range report, sir, you'd be safe out there all right.
In just a minute, we're going to have an update
on what the laws are in Michigan. We're watching this
story develop out of Michigan. A fellow has attacked the church.
Looks like he has shot multiple people. Maybe I'm seeing
one report now, maybe as many as ten people. One
person's dead. The church is on fire, and I've seen
(21:52):
people online say yeah, but you know you can't carry
the church. Remember, can't is not the same as not allowed.
And what happens if you do carry and it's not
allowed and you're caught. Well, we'll have the details on
that when we come back. I'm Tom Gresham. This is
gun Talk.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Now.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Normally I would be at the Gun Rights Policy Conference
right now. It's going on right now in Salt Lake City,
and I'm always there, except that this year I'm not
because i joined Moose Tag. You know, the story, and
I'm going to be headed up to Moose Country tomorrow
and couldn't make the schedules gel quite so, but it's
going on and that's where the experts are now. As
(22:43):
you know, right now, there's a story breaking out of Michigan.
A fella has crashed a truck into a church, shot
a number of people. The church is on fire and
we're waiting to find out more details. And I was curious.
I said, well, you know, can you carry in a
church in Michigan or what are the law there? So
we reached out to Gun Right's posse conference found the
(23:04):
right guy. Jared Coin joins us right now. He's been
involved in writing the legislative side of things on two
A on gun issues in Michigan for about fifteen years. Jared,
thank you for joining us. I hope everything's going okay
at gRPC.
Speaker 11 (23:18):
It's going great. Tom, thank you for having me on.
I wish it was under better circumstances though.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah. No, I talked to you a little bit early
and Clark Oppotion put us together and I appreciate Clark,
and I'll have more information that he's shared with me.
But right now, and people are saying you know, well
why don't you carry you there? And I had people
online say, well, you know it's illegal to carry in
a church in Michigan, and so I said, well, let's
talk to Jared. So what is the status, what's the
situation there?
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Okay?
Speaker 11 (23:45):
So in Wayman terms, the way Michigan works is, if
you have a concealed pistol license, there's two categories. There's
a standard license and exempt license. Now, the exempt license
isn't something you can really apply for, it's not some
than that is discretionary. Even so, the county clerk is
the licensing authority, and you have to fit an enumerated
(24:07):
category to be able to carry in places that's otherwise
banned for concealed pistols. So it includes private investigators, state
court judges, retired police correctional officers. It's about fifteen categories
of people in there.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Okay.
Speaker 11 (24:26):
So generally it's unlawful to carry a concealed pistol into
what we call pistol free zones. It only applies to
concealed pistols under a license. A church is in there, however,
the church is the only place listed where you can
get permission to carry concealed in there, so as you
could imagine, your mileage is going to vary. From my understanding,
(24:50):
a lot of Catholic churches will say either the diocese
or their bishop or someone says no, we can't. I
know of some Christian churches where their pastor says, sure,
it's great. I don't know how the Mormon churches work
out there, but generally speaking, the average person can't conceal
carry a pistol into a church. Now, we do have
(25:11):
what's called firearm free zones, and with the exception of
polling places, that entire statute does not apply if you
have a concealed pistol license. So what that would mean is,
if you have a concealed pistol license, you could carry
a pistol openly into a church. But most people aren't
going to openly.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, okay, so that's probably not going to happen, all right.
So here's the real questions this, and as adults, we're
faced with making choices every single day. And the question
I have for you is what is the penalty if
you carry your concealed pistol into a church where they
have not said it's okay, and you get caught whatever charge, convicted,
(25:57):
what could happen to you?
Speaker 11 (25:59):
Okay, Well, the first time you get caught, it's a
civil infraction, and you will lose your CPL for six months.
The second time it's a misdemeanor, I believe it's punishable.
It's either ninety days or up to a year. I
don't recall exactly, and you lose your license for I
(26:20):
believe it's a year. But the third time it's a felony.
It's a four year felony, and I believe that finds
up to five thousand dollars, And there's no time limit
where say, if you get caught once and then it
goes a year or two, like that will always follow you, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
But the first time it's an infraction, it's a civil penalty.
It's a five hundred dollars fine, and you lose your
carry permit for six months. It's like would would you
say it's more like a traffic violation than anything.
Speaker 11 (26:48):
Ah, it's more traffic than criminal in a sense. However,
I would argue that losing the license for six months
is still severe for a lot of people, because if
you don't have that license, you can't even purchase a
pistol privately. Without getting a permit to purchase each time
you want to get.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
A business in Michigan. Yeah, but I guess the argument
would be yes. But for them to get to that
point on me, it would mean I had to pull
my epistol in an act of self defense or protecting someone.
And now a lot of us would say yeah, and
that's worth it.
Speaker 11 (27:24):
Yes, And that's an individual judgment call someone's going to
have to make. The only thing I would point out
to you, though, is all the Michigan is a stand
your ground state. It's predicated upon being in a place
that you have a legal right to be at. So
that could call into question do you have a legal
right to be there if you're violating the Firearms Act right?
(27:47):
I don't know. We haven't seen that case yet.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
So if a person is a member of a church,
he or she could go to the church and say, hey,
in light of what just happened here, you need to
issue a statement that says that it's okay for people
who have a carry permit to carry in church. That
would be a possibility.
Speaker 11 (28:04):
I would implore every church to do that. However, we
know many of them aren't going to do that. And
on the legislative front. We've tried to change stuff like
that over the years. But right now we have a
Republican House, a Democrat Senate, and a Democrat governor. The
entire government is up on the ballot in twenty twenty six,
so hopefully we get a better crop of people.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Elections matter.
Speaker 11 (28:27):
They certainly do. As we saw in twenty two to
twenty four, the Democrats had a trifecta for the first
time in forty years, and sad to say, the days
of pro gun Democrats. Sadly it's gone. We used to
have great members on the Democrats side. We just don't now.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah, exactly right. Well, Jared Quin, thank you so much
for filling us in. It's good to get some information
from somebody who's been on the ground for so long
in Michigan. Tell us what the laws are there.
Speaker 11 (28:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
All right, you have a great gun rights policy conference.
It's just about wrapping up right now as we speak.
All right, eight six' six talk Gun how do you
do your? Analysis how do you decide whether you are
or are not going to carry when there's a no gun?
Speaker 13 (29:14):
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Lifestyle then tune into Gun Talk. Nation each, week your,
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(29:38):
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Podcasts put all your gear on that you carry and
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Know if it's LIKE c, four it's almost like a smack. Hunting,
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Crosshairs you're redical.
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(31:14):
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Speaker 12 (31:22):
Com all right back with you.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Here our number here is eight six Six talk gun
Or Tom. Talkgun I'm Tom. Gresham you can go over
follow me ON X i am at gun. Talk you
also should sign up for the newsletter for gun talk
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There you go to gun talk dot com and sign
up for the. Newsletter we actually do a lot OF
(31:58):
i don't know if they call swoosh steaks or giveaways.
Whatever we give away a lot of guns and if
you're on the newsletter, list you'll get that. Info. Also of,
course if you're on the newsletter, list you will be
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(32:19):
as you, can because there's some really good. Ones in,
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lots and lots of. Videos we have a full television,
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(32:42):
shoot how to, carry self defense, techniques all the rest of.
It and you can find. Us look for Gun talk on,
YouTube probably the easiest, place but really anywhere you get your,
videos you could find them. There So i'm watching the,
news the story out Of, michigan and you got people who, say,
(33:04):
well you, know but you can't carry in, church to
WHICH i kindly, say the hell you. Can't and then
you may, say well you can't. Legal that's a whole
different thing whether it's legal or. Not but you certainly can.
Carry whether you choose to or, not it's going to
be your own personal. DECISION i can't make that decision for.
(33:24):
YOU i can't tell you how to weigh the, risks
because that's really what we're talking. About it's the risk
of being caught and punished for carrying in a gun
free zone versus the risk of being caught and shot
(33:45):
and killed by a maniacal. Murderer when you come out
of the end of either one of those, scenarios which
one would you prefer to have gone? Through. Duh so
a lot of, people myself, included have developed vision. Problems that,
(34:08):
is we tend to not see the no gun. Signs. Now,
look if it's a police, station, courthouse the places where
you are legally prohibited from, going and there's a real
serious downside to, it then, yeah. No also they're generally more,
secure they have metal, detectors or they got cops all
over the. Place not a place THAT i worry about a. Lot,
(34:31):
also you gotta, know like our first guests, said you
got to know what the laws. Are in a lot of,
places in a lot of, states a no gun sign
on the door has zero weight in the. Law the
only places that are off limits are those that are
(34:52):
spelled out in the. Law but you have to do the,
research you have to do the. Digging you you have
to have the responsibility to know what the law. Is
hope if that's a lot to know, Yet, no, kidd guess.
What carrying a gun's a big. Responsibility if you're not
(35:15):
up to doing a little bit of, research maybe you're
not up to handling the responsibility of carrying a gun for.
Protection you're taking on a big. Responsibility not only do
you have to do it, well you have to do it.
Safely you have to be competent at, it WHICH i
(35:35):
will Spend i'll always end up going right back to
are you getting recurrent? Training? Not, OH i took a
concealed carry class twenty years, Ago big. Whoop you probably
don't know. Squat you probably really are pretty sucky at. This, Honestly,
(35:58):
now if you tell, me ALL i shoot three, GUN i? Shoot, okay,
great you're a competitive. Shooter you're handling your, gun you're
drawing all the, time all, right got, it no. Problem
but if you took a class twenty years ago and
you haven't taken another, class and you go to the
range once or twice a, year, yeah you're not really
up to the. Task i'm. SORRY i don't mean to
(36:22):
hurt your. Feelings we, RELAX i don't really. Care if
you get your feelings, hurt maybe it makes you stop
and do a little, introspection, say Maybe i'm not as
good AS i need to. Be here's my. Question how
confident do you feel about your ability to stop and
(36:46):
attack from someone who is, thirty forty or fifty yards
away one hundred and fifty? Feet do you feel like
you could put shots on? Target let's make it shooting much.
Shorter let's make it twenty yards sixty. Feet that should
not be difficult with the gun that you carry every you,
(37:12):
know whatever you carry, whenever you carry, it every, day every,
week every, month every. Year do you feel, confident confident
that you can put all shots on, target slow, fire
take as much time as you. Want we're not even
gonna put the stress of a shooting situation here at twenty.
Yards if you, say, well probably maybe not good. Enough
(37:37):
this is not a difficult. Test twenty yards man sized,
Target take all the time you. Want the Point And
i'm not really not trying to talk to anybody. Down
i'm trying not trying to make fun of anybody or
or detegrate. Anybody it's just THAT i want you to
(37:58):
have a realistic look and maybe a real re evaluation
of where you are and maybe make a commitment to,
Say i'm, Okay i'm going to get back in the.
Game i'm going to take another, Class i'm going to
up my. Gear i'm going to go to a red dot.
Site i'm going to carry every single, day And i'm
(38:24):
going to carry where EVERYWHERE i legally, can and maybe
some places Where i'm really not supposed. To but the
penalties are pretty. Slim maybe it's the penalty is a small,
fine something like a traffic. Violation, okay, Fine i'll do.
That i'll take that Chance firsus not having my gun
(38:46):
when somebody comes in to kill, everybody including me and my.
Family that's an easy decision for. ME i don't know
where you follow on that, one but that's easy for.
Me my number here Is Tom Talk. Gun that's, ME
I Talk. Gun what's your take on. This there are
(39:11):
so many new guns coming out it probably is worthwhile
for you to start paying. Attention you may, say, Well
i'm not in the, Market, OKAY i get, It and,
yet how would you know if something came out that
really offered some improvement for, you whether it's a, rifle
(39:33):
shotgun or. Pistol if we're continuing our conversation about self
defense with, guns primarily with, handguns is there a gun
that fits your hand? Better is there a gun that
has a better. Trigger is there one that maybe fits
into a niche between easy to carry and full size
with the range that's better than what you're doing. NOW
(39:59):
a lot of people for small guns because they're easy to.
CARRY i understand small guns are also harder to, shoot
harder to shoot, well harder to shoot. Accurately they recoil.
More with iron, sights they have a shorter sight. Radius
that's the distance between the front sight and the rear.
(40:19):
Sight the shorter that distance, is the harder it is
to shoot. Accurately it's one of the reasons that rifles
are easier to shoot accurately than. Handguns red, dots by the,
way eliminate that. Issue red dots basically make us better.
Shooters red dots or optical sights wring their own challenges or.
(40:42):
Compromises you've got to have a battery working in, there
and if the battery goes, dead you got no. Dot
some people, sometimes and, Look i'm one of, THOSE i
can argue either, way understand, them like them use them
in the YE i can, say, yeah DO i really
want to make sure that the batteries working all the.
(41:04):
TIME i don't. Know you figure it. Out you got
to make that. Call but WHEN i see people, saying,
WELL I i carry a five shot, Snubby, okay, cool get.
IT i understand. It i've got. Them but when a
guy comes crashes his truck in the front door and
(41:26):
proceeds to start trying to kill everybody in there is
a five shots? Snubby what you want to have in your? Hand, Yeah,
tama what's the likelihood of? That? Really, really are we
going to do? That what's the likelihood of? That the
likelihood is you're never going to need it for self.
(41:47):
Defense but if you decide you're going to have it
for self, defense then, okay have it for self defense
for yourself and for the people around. You have something
will work For, unfortunately more and more imaginable. Situations you,
remember the kid who shot the mass shooter at forty
(42:13):
yards in the mall mass shoot had a. Rifle eli
had his. Glock but he hit this guy a couple
of times with the first four shots at forty plus,
yards then moved in on him and shot him multiple
times after that because the guy kept trying to get
to his gun forty yards with iron. Sights, well one
(42:41):
of the odds of needing. That, really let's not do.
That let's saddle up with the responsibility Of if you
Said i'm the one who's going to protect, Myself i'm
gonna protect my, Family i'm gonna protect my, Wife i'm
gonna protect my, Children i'm gonna protect my, husband then
be that person and do what is required of that
(43:05):
person from an equipment, standpoint from a training, standpoint from
a carry everywhere, standpoint from knowing how to, draw from,
concealment from being fast and good you decided to take
on that. Responsibility do you really want the responsibility or
are you a? Pretender and if me saying this makes you,
(43:27):
MAD i am really glad because maybe if you get
mad at, me then you look at yourself and figure
Out i'm not doing EVERYTHING i should, Do and if
that caused you to go be, better then that's. Great
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