August 23, 2025 • 25 mins
Are small calibers ethical for big game hunting? In this high-caliber episode of Gun Talk Hunt, host KJ sits down with a powerhouse panel of expert hunters, including Jeff Johnston, Tyler Freel, and Brian Krebs, to challenge the conventional wisdom around rifle calibers, terminal ballistics, recoil management, and ethical shot placement.
Whether you're a seasoned western hunter or prepping for your first big game trip, this episode delivers science-backed insights, real-world case studies, and practical advice on selecting the right caliber — for both your confidence and your quarry.
This Gun Talk Hunt is brought to you by Savage Arms, Range Ready Studios, Timney Triggers, and Remington Ammunition.
About Gun Talk Hunt
Gun Talk Media's Gun Talk Hunt, with Kevin “KJ” Jarnagin, pairs decades of experience with today’s latest tools and technology to help you succeed in the field. Whether it runs or flies - no matter what game you pursue - Gun Talk Hunt is a multi-platform podcast that gives today’s hunters a voice in the digital world.
For more content from Gun Talk Media, visit guntalk.com or subscribe on YouTube, Rumble, Facebook, Instagram, and X. Catch First Person Defender on the new Official FPD YouTube channel. Catch Gun Talk Hunt on the new dedicated YouTube Channel. Listen to all Gun Talk Podcasts with Spreaker, iHeart, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you find podcasts.
Copyright ©2025 Freefire Media, LLC
Gun Talk Hunt 08.23.25
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
Whether you're a seasoned western hunter or prepping for your first big game trip, this episode delivers science-backed insights, real-world case studies, and practical advice on selecting the right caliber — for both your confidence and your quarry.
This Gun Talk Hunt is brought to you by Savage Arms, Range Ready Studios, Timney Triggers, and Remington Ammunition.
About Gun Talk Hunt
Gun Talk Media's Gun Talk Hunt, with Kevin “KJ” Jarnagin, pairs decades of experience with today’s latest tools and technology to help you succeed in the field. Whether it runs or flies - no matter what game you pursue - Gun Talk Hunt is a multi-platform podcast that gives today’s hunters a voice in the digital world.
For more content from Gun Talk Media, visit guntalk.com or subscribe on YouTube, Rumble, Facebook, Instagram, and X. Catch First Person Defender on the new Official FPD YouTube channel. Catch Gun Talk Hunt on the new dedicated YouTube Channel. Listen to all Gun Talk Podcasts with Spreaker, iHeart, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you find podcasts.
Copyright ©2025 Freefire Media, LLC
Gun Talk Hunt 08.23.25
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On this episode of Gun Talk Hunt, you're going to
notice a few changes. We got a great panel today
and we're talking big game, but we're talking very small calibers.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
What's too small for the big game? I'm kJ you
found the right place. We go all over this.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Little blue orb, sharing stories and tactics about chasing wild game.
Now let's get on the hunt. Welcome in Gun Talk Hunters.
This episode is brought to you by Remington, Amos, Savage Arms,
Range Ready Studios, and Timny Triggers. Man, you're already noticing
(00:39):
all the new things around here on Gun Talk Hunt.
The new set, the new logo, a whole panel of
guests each week dedicated around one central theme, and it's
all new guests, all the time. This week's panel is
a big panel, but we're talking about small calibers. First,
let's jump right in all the way from ok Oklahoma. Jeff,
(01:01):
how you doing, man?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Not too shabby? Can't complain? How are you, dude?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I can't complain, honestly, Like it's it's a good day.
It's a it's a great new look to the show
and we're trying something else different. We're going to continue
with this with great panelists like yourself. But first, let's
talk small calibers big game. Let's jump into the x
ethics of this thing and and minimum calibers for big game.
(01:29):
What do the ethics look like on that?
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Hmm, Well, you know you're putting me on the spot
with this because you've closely guarded your topics. But this
happens to be a topic that I love, so let's
dive in. Let's start here. There's a reason that the
twenty two long rifle, the two twenty three, that the
AR fifteen are so popular. That's because they don't recoil
(01:56):
a lot. And you can even put the six point
five creed more in that lot. Because most people don't
handle recoil that well. They shoot, They shoot from the bench.
A lot of people's technique isn't even perfect. But I
think when you're shooting animals, I think that a couple
of things in the.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Equation that add up to energy.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
And I really believe you need a bullet that has
energy for big game, and that is velocity times the
mass of that bullet, and then the other factor that
you need is a well constructed bullet.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
But when you get those.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Things, you can shoot any animal ethically from about any angle.
I don't understand the whole, uh, this whole trend to
go lower caliber, you know, less energy, because if all
things are perfect and you have the perfect shot and
shot placement, yeah you don't need a whole lot of energy.
Most things will do the job. But it's when it's
(02:48):
on the marginal shots. It's on bigger, tough game and
the marginal shots when maybe you're maybe there's maybe you've
got a let's see, you've got a six point five
creed More and you have an elk at three hundred
and fifty yards maybe four hundred, and he's quartering away.
You know, suddenly that six pointy five premre becomes marginal.
(03:09):
And but you know, you take a three hundred win
mag and you don't have to worry about it. You know,
you can you can shoot those marginal shots, in my opinion,
and that bullet will just well just do its job.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Pretty much every time.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Now, the trade off is there's recoil, you know, and
a lot of people we already already mentioned that some
people don't handle recoil that well. And I've noticed, as
much as I think that I'm a decent shot, I
notice I shoot a twenty two long rifle a lot
better than I shoot a three hundred win mag and
that's generally because there's there's recoils. So my thing is
get the biggest. What I would advise or I'm not
(03:44):
the hunting police. What I do for myself is I
get the biggest caliber. You know that I can that
I feel like I can shoot well and I'm not
scared of the gun in different positions.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
And so that's my philosophy.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
But I do not really love the trend on a
going smaller caliber and lessenergy for a big game. One
more example, I'll give sorry, I'm sorry, but like I
get fired up.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
No, I now I like that you're getting fired up
because this is a topic that's very sensitive to a
lot of people. But it's the energy that I'm more
worry about. It's not necessarily a small caliber because I
do believe speed kills and when you in shot, placement
is everything. When you talk about small calibers, what can
you shoot well? And I think that's kind of where
(04:30):
you're going with and what shots are you willing to
take to bring down the animal ethically?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Right right?
Speaker 4 (04:38):
And I guess I was a little bit confused there
if you're just talking about, you know, the the technical caliber,
the diameter of the bullet. You know, with a two
point fifty seven weather Be mag, you know, you can
kill anything on the face of the earth, as as
some of the African hunters have proven, as long as
you have a well constructed bullet, you know. And I'm
(04:58):
a Barns guy because you don't have to worry about it.
But you know, when the weather Beas came out, they
were ahead of their time and they didn't have the bullet,
they didn't have the bullet technology to keep up with it.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
So it's real.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
You know, some of the weather Be's with bad bullets
are great at four hundred yards, but if a moose
pops up at thirty yards and you shoot it in
the shoulder with any caliber with the with a crappy bullet,
that bullet's gonna blow up. But what happened to Weatherby
specifically the nozzler came out with the partition and totally changed,
you know, changed the game. So a two fifty seven
(05:32):
weatherb Be mag for example, I'm just using that because
it's a speed demon. With a Barnes bullet, I feel
like you could kill anything in the world. You know, Yeah,
I still lean towards towards that mass energy on the
biggest game, But I do feel like with proper sharp placement,
you could kill anything with that with that caliber.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I think bullet construction nowadays is massive. And I've talked
to Seth Swerzchek over at Hornity about this very thing,
and how has bullet construction changed over the years. And
you're talking about Barns, and they've done a great job
in innovating, and so is Hornity. But I've got to like,
so I'm sitting there hunting with a buddy. I've got
(06:12):
a two o four ruger, a two o four giant
like hogs. I don't know how it happened, but a
giant like herd hogs comes out, and I picked the
biggest one I can and I'm like, all right, here
we go. I'm gonna shoot this thing in the ear.
If I can shoot it in the ear, drop it dead.
Nut's like done, completely dead. But I feel like a
(06:34):
lot of that's bullet construction now. The two of four
Is it designed for hogs? Absolutely not. There's no way
but his shot placement.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Right, And when I said Barnes I was talking about
old copper, you know Hornert's DMX, you know all those. Yeah,
so I've done I did extensive testing. I shot a
three hundred he was two seventy six because I weigh
him two hundred and seventy six pelm boar here behind
my house.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I'd seen him a bunch and shot him and put
him in the.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Freezer, and this is all on video, and brought out
a bunch of different calibers, you know, a bunch of
different bullets, and and you know, shot that pig. You know,
subsnic three hundred blackout wouldn't even penetrate the wouldn't even
penetrate the gristle right at at one hundred yards, you know,
the two twenty threes would but dependent on the bullet,
(07:27):
you know, nine millimeters wouldn't even wouldn't even penetrate the gristle.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You know, just crazy.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
But then you get a two forty three with the
whistles through both sides, you know, no, no big deal.
But yeah, I think there's a bunch in bullet construction.
And I'm dying to hear what these other guys think.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Oh I am too, And for that, I think we
need to head in and we need to talk to
the Tyler Frill, And I know he's got something to
say about this, because Tyler, man, you you have stirred
a hornet's nest over the past two or three four
years about shooting shooting big game because you have plenty
(08:07):
of access to them up there in Alaska with small calibers.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So just talk to me about it, man, give me.
I know you want to just lay into Jeff right now.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
No, I don't. I don't mind. I don't want to
lay into Jeff at all. Probably condensing my thoughts into
like what into what we can what we can fit
here is going to be the challenge. I think. The
thing I would add is a lot. You know, some
of this, like kicking the hornets nest has been on
(08:39):
has been on purpose because I'm just like that a
little bit. But it's all been good reason that I
really have changed the way I think about a lot
of things, as far as whether terminaballistics or rifle accuracy,
a lot of these things I've the more I've shot
over the past few years, the more my mindset has changed.
(09:01):
And I mean I as far as like cartridge or
rifle bullet energy goes I almost think it's an irrelevant metrics.
It's not. I think it's a metric that doesn't tell
us anything without a bunch of extra caveats like I
you know, you hear historically here, well you need fifteen
(09:21):
hundred pounds foot pounds of energy for elk or whatever
advice you know on down the line, But not a
single person has ever been able to articulate just based
on that number what that means in terminal performance and
damage to the animal. And especially over the past few years,
I've come to think that, you know, bullet construction is huge,
(09:43):
but impact velocity and knowing the impact velocity range that
your bullet's designed to function in is a much much
bigger and how and how that bullet functions is a
much much bigger or more more valuable metric to look
And that's kind of what I have shifted to looking
at in anything anything I'm hunting. And you know, one
(10:06):
like one quick example of just the energy things. I
followed up shot a black a big black bear last
year with three three to eight win mag with two
hundred twenty five grain Hornity c X bullets. It had
been shot with a bow and we thought initially we
had a few seconds to decide, and initially we're like
got too far forward. We thought it was outside the
(10:28):
chest cavity. Uh so I shot and the bear ran
another like flinched and ran another sixty yards and died.
And uh, I mean it looked like a broadhead wind
through the bear. And then you know, two bears. The
two bears I shot the following days with six five
you know, creed more one three yeld x's. The damage
(10:49):
was like much more catastrophic. And you know those are
those are just two examples, but it's just one way
to get you thinking that like energy alone doesn't tell
us anything, and even bullet function, like what kind of
wound does that bullet make?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Right?
Speaker 5 (11:06):
And as it translates to smaller stuff, I think the
capabilities of especially some of these newer like high BC
smaller caliber bullets, I think the wounding capability of them
is far beyond what a lot of people give it
credit for.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
I think you're right, man. And when you look at
like some of the stuff that you've done, the first
video that I remember, like that you are first article
and video and like social media posts that you pump
out and you talked about it on the Tundra Talk
podcast is the grizzly bear. And that one sticks out
(11:46):
in my mind when you shot the grizzly bear with
a six y five and everybody was like, how could
you do that? And I'm like, one, he knows his ballistics,
he knows his shooting capabilities, and your follow up shot
because you want to put the animal down as as possible.
Your follow up shot was faster than I have seen
someone put a follow up shot and and just as
(12:07):
good a shot on any critter that I've seen on
any of the hunting shows, because you can control it.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Yeah, and that's that's a part of it too, But
also worth pointing out that, I mean that's what with
grizzly bears and a lot of animals, like if you
can make follow up shots, it's a lot of times
a good idea to do so. But that that bear
was hosed for a shot. I mean, you know, to
put a hole the size of a baseball through the
things lungs, and I mean he was spraying blood everywhere
(12:38):
as he was done, So I mean that and that's
a big attraction to me. And one you know, it's
not literally, it's it's for I think it's truly beneficial
for sometimes for people to you don't have to pick
the smallest cartridge. I you know, I sometimes like am
testing the limits for specific purposes. But a cartridge that
(13:01):
that you really can ay, you can you can tolerate
and shoot really well, which gets into requil you know,
requil management when I talk about it. I'm not the
old the general idea that a lot of people think,
you know, can you can you handle this gun? And
it doesn't mean I can shoot this thing without crying
or or taste in colors or you know that the
(13:23):
like I'm not scared of the gun because like I'm not,
you know, I'm not scared of any of the rifles
I have. But I can absolutely shoot lower recoiling rifles
better and control, like control the rifle through the shot better,
see impacts, better, make follow up shots more quickly if
they're necessary, and at all at all, all these pieces
(13:44):
work together into a complete cohesiveness that gives that gives
it gives me a lot more confidence. And when I
know the bullet's going to do the job, Uh, I
don't really I find myself with a safe full of
bigger rifles that I just asked myself, why or why
would why would I get that over this? Well? Not
(14:07):
even like why would why would I pick my three
hundred PRC to shoot a moose over my six creed
right when it's gonna work?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Fine, We've got we both have kiddos growing up in
this hunting world, and so that that to me is
what you're saying too, is what are your kids going
to shoot?
Speaker 6 (14:24):
Really?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Well, like start stocking the safe with that, because if
they can shoot it with confidence and not like sit
there and go dad, you really want me to shoot
this get three hundred rum like I mean, I will,
but I don't know where that SHOT's going because they're
anticipating like a mother, But.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
Not even to go that far like your average thirty
six without a break or a can like you know
rips a pretty good. But my seven year old daughter
kills blackbirds with the twenty two years.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I know that this little guy right here, that's crazy,
all right, man, Tyler?
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Thank you?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Looking to trim a few U lbs out of your
pack or just your firearm? Check out the Savage one
ten carbon Predator two swing syllable studs, Matt Black carbon
steel receiver, two piece weaver style bases, proof research barrel. Yeah,
it's carbon wrap. So that's where some of the weight
savings is gonna come. And you won't be disappointed because
(15:19):
they offer it in a lot of different variations. Six
milimeter are two two three Remington twenty two, two fifty
a favorite of mine, three oh eight six y five
creed More and three hundred Blackout. Now you're talking about weight,
you're talking about how much really is it gonna weigh?
Trust me, you're gonna be able to carry this thing
(15:40):
all day. It's under that seven pound range, so I
promise you it's accurate too.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So trust Savage one ten Carbon Predator for all your
weight savings. Tired of your range time being just mag
dumps and Instagram flexing, interrange ready training. We're director of
awesomeness and everything else. Chris Sereno turns keyboard warriors into
actual warriors or something like that. Pretty dang close, I
(16:07):
would say, yeah, the guy's been there, done that. Pistol check,
rifle check, Yeah, we got it all. Force on force.
We do that every now and then too. Bring your bruises.
Instructor development. Welcome to the Thunderdome of learning. It's more
than training. It's ranged ready because real life doesn't come
(16:27):
with a respawd button. Looking to level up your hunt
and tighten up those groups, well, look no further than
Remington Ammo. Yeah, the stuff in the green box is
super accurate and they've got everything from hunting ammo all
the way to NROL like match amos. So check those out.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Remington Premiere, from Premier tip acutip to match grade ammunition,
all in that green box. You love, you trust, and
you adore. Find it all at Remington dot com. Feel
like your trigger's holding you back more than your ex
fix that with the Timney Alpha Competition trigger for the
Ruger RXm. It's got a crisp three pound pull, no adjustments,
(17:07):
no drama, just pure smooth performance. It installs easier than
Ikea furniture and comes fully hand assembled, tested and calibrated
by real humans, not robots or over caffeinated raccoons, made
in the USA, and backed by a legendary lifetime warranty. Yes,
it will make you more accurate. The rest is on you.
(17:29):
We're gonna jump over now we're gonna talk to Brian Krabs. Brian,
now you've heard the previous two guests. Absolutely phenomenal takes
on it. Where do you land on small calibers for
big game?
Speaker 6 (17:42):
Yeah? Thanks for having me on kJ. You know, everything
that I do from the podcast and helping people is
like I want people to get out west and have
good experiences. I want them to experience the passion that
we all have for big game. And you know this conversation.
Can you know, a good experience means making a good
(18:03):
shot and having a good recovery, and you can trade
one for the other pretty easily. I mean, you can
make a great shot with a twenty two LR on
an elk and have a horrible recovery, right, And so
I'm trying to maximize that to help people have good experiences.
Or you could go and have like a three thirty
eight Lapua that's gonna put an elk down no problem,
but have a terrible shot, and that's not gonnaly do
(18:25):
a good experience either. So I like Jeff he picked two.
He picked two rifles. That is pretty relevant because I
shoot a three hundred win meg. My wife shoots a
six y five creed more, right, So we we approach
shot placement or shot decision differently, right, she can't shoot
that six y five creed More and do the same
things I'm doing with a three hundred win Meg. They're
(18:45):
different ripful systems. Now, we you know bullet quality, that
is I think a standard. Like there's some foundational things, right,
we have to have good shot placement in this day
and age. We need to understand our bullets and our
bullet performance. I like what Tyler said with un understanding
your terminal ballistics. A lot of people like to look
at muzzle ballistics, which doesn't really apply when you're hunting
(19:07):
with a rifle. You need to know what that bullet's
doing three hundred yards down range. And I like to
put all this together in a way that anyone can
apply it, whether you're a seven year old daughter or
whether you're like me, a six to two guy that's
fifty pounds overweight. You know what does that mean? And
so I look at it like a triangle. I'm trying
to maximize the area of this triangle between the shooter capability,
(19:31):
the weapon system capability, and the distance to that particular
animal on that day and that shot.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Right.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
And so if you borrow points from the western or
the weapon system to give them to the shooter, you
don't really change much. You still have to get maybe
to a different distance. But if you can get as
a better shooter, if you can get a better weapon system,
if you can get closer, Like these are all things
that increase that area of that triangle, that's just going
to lead to better chances at a good experience. There's
(20:00):
a lot of things you can do with that, Like
you can practice and you can become a better shooter.
You can practice your stocking skills, and you can get closer.
You can take a three hundred win meg and you
can put a can on it, and you can build
a rifle that weighs twelve pounds if you're willing to
carry that, and you're going to do a lot for
recoil management. I mean, you can do a lot of
things to adjust that triangle. But that's kind of where
(20:21):
I look at it. And if you take that approach,
you can apply almost any caliber rifle and any shooter
and you just say, hey, maybe we are shooting a
little smaller. We're shooting a six millimeter creed more because
my shooter can't handle a three hundred win make and
that means we just have to get in closer to
a ELK we can still do that. That still gives
us an opportunity to go out hunting with the intent
(20:41):
of a good experience.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And well, I man, you guys make all valid points.
And where I go with this is do we overthink it?
Do you know your ballistics well enough to know like
this works? I know this works like the six' Five
creed more like that is one that gets tossed out
more than anything the manbun gun from The, West, like,
(21:05):
MAN i know the ballistics on, that AND i know
my limitations with.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
That i'm choosing it to go out.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
West, Now, brian what would you? Choose a guy coming
out gonna go on his first l hunt and.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Maybe he's new to. Hunting maybe he.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Is he's the guy who's like gonna go out to the.
Ring he's like your typical. Hunter i'm gonna go out
to the. Range i'm gonna make sure my gun insided
in if they do. That so what are they gonna?
Do what do you what are you gonna recommend that
these guys?
Speaker 6 (21:37):
Take, Yeah so there's a couple of guns out there
THAT i really like that can kind of serve as
a one. Platform does it all? Right without going?
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Crazy?
Speaker 6 (21:49):
Right like, yeah three thirty eight lapool will take, everything
and especially if you want, to BUT i don't recommend
real that for most. People, YEAH i like the two seventy.
Win it's a GREAT i think timeless. CALIBER i like
the six y five Creed. More i've seen that bullet
do a lot of good. Things you'd, like you, say
just got to understand. IT i would rather have a
hunter use a weapon system that they can shoot, well for,
(22:12):
example six' Five, Creed MORE and i would rather them
understand that bullet and just know where they need to
get into on an elk rather than think they need
a three hundred win make because that's The HALLMARK western.
Elk rifle but they don't shoot, it well they don't
understand the, ballistics well and they could still lead to.
Bad experiences i'd much rather have them in that other
(22:32):
scenario and just like, push it like you just got
to get into the email a. Little tighter you can't
be taking five hundred inder. Guard shots there's.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
No Way like i've seen more hunters groove extremely bad
habits with a three hundred wind mag or you name
the large calord whatever it, might be THREE hundred rom
three Thirty eight i've seen more hunters groove really bad
habits that transfer over when you move them into. SOMETHING
small i had, a guy Local, guy goodbye he hunts
(23:00):
with me all. The time, he thought man in the
you just use a three hundred Win mag it will,
kill everything one. Hundred percent it will if you can.
Shoot it if you can, shoot it. That's. Great yeah
but we set him UP and i, was, like dude
just shoot my shoot shoot my six five creed more
just for. This season he missed like. Three deer he
(23:21):
missed three deer with the six Five Cre and i'm
not talking these are. Layup shots these aren't like FIVE hundred. I,
won't yeah that's a whole new topic for another. Another
show but he grooved a bunch of. Bad habits he
groove that, flinch in he groove jerking, that trigger and
it transferred into a.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Smaller caliber it's sad. To, see, YEAH.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
Yeah, i mean there's a reason why my three hundred
win meg weighs thirteen POUNDS and i have a monster break.
On it it's to induce that RECOIL so i can
shoot it like it deserves to, be SHOT and i
get the benefit of the extra ENERGY if i couldn't.
DO that i wouldn't be shooting a Gun that i'm
afraid of And that I'm know i'm going.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
To, flinch oh it just it just it kind of
starts chatting ME and i ALWAYS and. I do i
direct a lot of people to go watch uh, you
know the go listen To The tundra talk podcasts and
now Your Podcast, Drawn, west like look at, these guys
like they are doing some amazing things with, small calibers
(24:20):
just based on bullet construction and, terminal ballistics and they
can shoot because they practice. Their CRAFT and i think
that's one thing that's lacking in. Today's, hunter yeah there's
really no excuses in. Today's world we have all the
information in the world on, bullet construction. Terminal performance you,
can shoot you can understand all. This stuff gone are
(24:42):
the days where you just Take the remington corlock and
make sure you still hit the flill deadliest mushroom in. The, woods,
yeah Absolutely. Thanks, brian look let's jump in here and
let's finish. This theme small calibers big game when it
comes to understanding your ballistics and understanding how they work downrange,
(25:04):
Is critical but, most importantly you also need to develop
your skills as a hunter to take down that animal
ethically within the fewest. Shots possible, work competitions gain that
sense of urgency under, the clock the sense of urgency
that comes only when that animal is standing in front.
(25:25):
Of you your, heart's pumping that adrenaline is. Really going
but work, on yourself work those positional, shooting positions work,
under stress understand your, terminal ballistics and you'll have more
success in. The field as always gun, talk hunters this
is kJ keep those barrels point in a safe direction
and always be on.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
The hunt
On this episode of Gun Talk Hunt, you're going to
notice a few changes. We got a great panel today
and we're talking big game, but we're talking very small calibers.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
What's too small for the big game? I'm kJ you
found the right place. We go all over this.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Little blue orb, sharing stories and tactics about chasing wild game.
Now let's get on the hunt. Welcome in Gun Talk Hunters.
This episode is brought to you by Remington, Amos, Savage Arms,
Range Ready Studios, and Timny Triggers. Man, you're already noticing
(00:39):
all the new things around here on Gun Talk Hunt.
The new set, the new logo, a whole panel of
guests each week dedicated around one central theme, and it's
all new guests, all the time. This week's panel is
a big panel, but we're talking about small calibers. First,
let's jump right in all the way from ok Oklahoma. Jeff,
(01:01):
how you doing, man?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Not too shabby? Can't complain? How are you, dude?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I can't complain, honestly, Like it's it's a good day.
It's a it's a great new look to the show
and we're trying something else different. We're going to continue
with this with great panelists like yourself. But first, let's
talk small calibers big game. Let's jump into the x
ethics of this thing and and minimum calibers for big game.
(01:29):
What do the ethics look like on that?
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Hmm, Well, you know you're putting me on the spot
with this because you've closely guarded your topics. But this
happens to be a topic that I love, so let's
dive in. Let's start here. There's a reason that the
twenty two long rifle, the two twenty three, that the
AR fifteen are so popular. That's because they don't recoil
(01:56):
a lot. And you can even put the six point
five creed more in that lot. Because most people don't
handle recoil that well. They shoot, They shoot from the bench.
A lot of people's technique isn't even perfect. But I
think when you're shooting animals, I think that a couple
of things in the.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Equation that add up to energy.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
And I really believe you need a bullet that has
energy for big game, and that is velocity times the
mass of that bullet, and then the other factor that
you need is a well constructed bullet.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
But when you get those.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Things, you can shoot any animal ethically from about any angle.
I don't understand the whole, uh, this whole trend to
go lower caliber, you know, less energy, because if all
things are perfect and you have the perfect shot and
shot placement, yeah you don't need a whole lot of energy.
Most things will do the job. But it's when it's
(02:48):
on the marginal shots. It's on bigger, tough game and
the marginal shots when maybe you're maybe there's maybe you've
got a let's see, you've got a six point five
creed More and you have an elk at three hundred
and fifty yards maybe four hundred, and he's quartering away.
You know, suddenly that six pointy five premre becomes marginal.
(03:09):
And but you know, you take a three hundred win
mag and you don't have to worry about it. You know,
you can you can shoot those marginal shots, in my opinion,
and that bullet will just well just do its job.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Pretty much every time.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Now, the trade off is there's recoil, you know, and
a lot of people we already already mentioned that some
people don't handle recoil that well. And I've noticed, as
much as I think that I'm a decent shot, I
notice I shoot a twenty two long rifle a lot
better than I shoot a three hundred win mag and
that's generally because there's there's recoils. So my thing is
get the biggest. What I would advise or I'm not
(03:44):
the hunting police. What I do for myself is I
get the biggest caliber. You know that I can that
I feel like I can shoot well and I'm not
scared of the gun in different positions.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
And so that's my philosophy.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
But I do not really love the trend on a
going smaller caliber and lessenergy for a big game. One
more example, I'll give sorry, I'm sorry, but like I
get fired up.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
No, I now I like that you're getting fired up
because this is a topic that's very sensitive to a
lot of people. But it's the energy that I'm more
worry about. It's not necessarily a small caliber because I
do believe speed kills and when you in shot, placement
is everything. When you talk about small calibers, what can
you shoot well? And I think that's kind of where
(04:30):
you're going with and what shots are you willing to
take to bring down the animal ethically?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Right right?
Speaker 4 (04:38):
And I guess I was a little bit confused there
if you're just talking about, you know, the the technical caliber,
the diameter of the bullet. You know, with a two
point fifty seven weather Be mag, you know, you can
kill anything on the face of the earth, as as
some of the African hunters have proven, as long as
you have a well constructed bullet, you know. And I'm
(04:58):
a Barns guy because you don't have to worry about it.
But you know, when the weather Beas came out, they
were ahead of their time and they didn't have the bullet,
they didn't have the bullet technology to keep up with it.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
So it's real.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
You know, some of the weather Be's with bad bullets
are great at four hundred yards, but if a moose
pops up at thirty yards and you shoot it in
the shoulder with any caliber with the with a crappy bullet,
that bullet's gonna blow up. But what happened to Weatherby
specifically the nozzler came out with the partition and totally changed,
you know, changed the game. So a two fifty seven
(05:32):
weatherb Be mag for example, I'm just using that because
it's a speed demon. With a Barnes bullet, I feel
like you could kill anything in the world. You know, Yeah,
I still lean towards towards that mass energy on the
biggest game, But I do feel like with proper sharp placement,
you could kill anything with that with that caliber.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I think bullet construction nowadays is massive. And I've talked
to Seth Swerzchek over at Hornity about this very thing,
and how has bullet construction changed over the years. And
you're talking about Barns, and they've done a great job
in innovating, and so is Hornity. But I've got to like,
so I'm sitting there hunting with a buddy. I've got
(06:12):
a two o four ruger, a two o four giant
like hogs. I don't know how it happened, but a
giant like herd hogs comes out, and I picked the
biggest one I can and I'm like, all right, here
we go. I'm gonna shoot this thing in the ear.
If I can shoot it in the ear, drop it dead.
Nut's like done, completely dead. But I feel like a
(06:34):
lot of that's bullet construction now. The two of four
Is it designed for hogs? Absolutely not. There's no way
but his shot placement.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Right, And when I said Barnes I was talking about
old copper, you know Hornert's DMX, you know all those. Yeah,
so I've done I did extensive testing. I shot a
three hundred he was two seventy six because I weigh
him two hundred and seventy six pelm boar here behind
my house.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I'd seen him a bunch and shot him and put
him in the.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Freezer, and this is all on video, and brought out
a bunch of different calibers, you know, a bunch of
different bullets, and and you know, shot that pig. You know,
subsnic three hundred blackout wouldn't even penetrate the wouldn't even
penetrate the gristle right at at one hundred yards, you know,
the two twenty threes would but dependent on the bullet,
(07:27):
you know, nine millimeters wouldn't even wouldn't even penetrate the gristle.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You know, just crazy.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
But then you get a two forty three with the
whistles through both sides, you know, no, no big deal.
But yeah, I think there's a bunch in bullet construction.
And I'm dying to hear what these other guys think.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Oh I am too, And for that, I think we
need to head in and we need to talk to
the Tyler Frill, And I know he's got something to
say about this, because Tyler, man, you you have stirred
a hornet's nest over the past two or three four
years about shooting shooting big game because you have plenty
(08:07):
of access to them up there in Alaska with small calibers.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So just talk to me about it, man, give me.
I know you want to just lay into Jeff right now.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
No, I don't. I don't mind. I don't want to
lay into Jeff at all. Probably condensing my thoughts into
like what into what we can what we can fit
here is going to be the challenge. I think. The
thing I would add is a lot. You know, some
of this, like kicking the hornets nest has been on
(08:39):
has been on purpose because I'm just like that a
little bit. But it's all been good reason that I
really have changed the way I think about a lot
of things, as far as whether terminaballistics or rifle accuracy,
a lot of these things I've the more I've shot
over the past few years, the more my mindset has changed.
(09:01):
And I mean I as far as like cartridge or
rifle bullet energy goes I almost think it's an irrelevant metrics.
It's not. I think it's a metric that doesn't tell
us anything without a bunch of extra caveats like I
you know, you hear historically here, well you need fifteen
(09:21):
hundred pounds foot pounds of energy for elk or whatever
advice you know on down the line, But not a
single person has ever been able to articulate just based
on that number what that means in terminal performance and
damage to the animal. And especially over the past few years,
I've come to think that, you know, bullet construction is huge,
(09:43):
but impact velocity and knowing the impact velocity range that
your bullet's designed to function in is a much much
bigger and how and how that bullet functions is a
much much bigger or more more valuable metric to look
And that's kind of what I have shifted to looking
at in anything anything I'm hunting. And you know, one
(10:06):
like one quick example of just the energy things. I
followed up shot a black a big black bear last
year with three three to eight win mag with two
hundred twenty five grain Hornity c X bullets. It had
been shot with a bow and we thought initially we
had a few seconds to decide, and initially we're like
got too far forward. We thought it was outside the
(10:28):
chest cavity. Uh so I shot and the bear ran
another like flinched and ran another sixty yards and died.
And uh, I mean it looked like a broadhead wind
through the bear. And then you know, two bears. The
two bears I shot the following days with six five
you know, creed more one three yeld x's. The damage
(10:49):
was like much more catastrophic. And you know those are
those are just two examples, but it's just one way
to get you thinking that like energy alone doesn't tell
us anything, and even bullet function, like what kind of
wound does that bullet make?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Right?
Speaker 5 (11:06):
And as it translates to smaller stuff, I think the
capabilities of especially some of these newer like high BC
smaller caliber bullets, I think the wounding capability of them
is far beyond what a lot of people give it
credit for.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
I think you're right, man. And when you look at
like some of the stuff that you've done, the first
video that I remember, like that you are first article
and video and like social media posts that you pump
out and you talked about it on the Tundra Talk
podcast is the grizzly bear. And that one sticks out
(11:46):
in my mind when you shot the grizzly bear with
a six y five and everybody was like, how could
you do that? And I'm like, one, he knows his ballistics,
he knows his shooting capabilities, and your follow up shot
because you want to put the animal down as as possible.
Your follow up shot was faster than I have seen
someone put a follow up shot and and just as
(12:07):
good a shot on any critter that I've seen on
any of the hunting shows, because you can control it.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Yeah, and that's that's a part of it too, But
also worth pointing out that, I mean that's what with
grizzly bears and a lot of animals, like if you
can make follow up shots, it's a lot of times
a good idea to do so. But that that bear
was hosed for a shot. I mean, you know, to
put a hole the size of a baseball through the
things lungs, and I mean he was spraying blood everywhere
(12:38):
as he was done, So I mean that and that's
a big attraction to me. And one you know, it's
not literally, it's it's for I think it's truly beneficial
for sometimes for people to you don't have to pick
the smallest cartridge. I you know, I sometimes like am
testing the limits for specific purposes. But a cartridge that
(13:01):
that you really can ay, you can you can tolerate
and shoot really well, which gets into requil you know,
requil management when I talk about it. I'm not the
old the general idea that a lot of people think,
you know, can you can you handle this gun? And
it doesn't mean I can shoot this thing without crying
or or taste in colors or you know that the
(13:23):
like I'm not scared of the gun because like I'm not,
you know, I'm not scared of any of the rifles
I have. But I can absolutely shoot lower recoiling rifles
better and control, like control the rifle through the shot better,
see impacts, better, make follow up shots more quickly if
they're necessary, and at all at all, all these pieces
(13:44):
work together into a complete cohesiveness that gives that gives
it gives me a lot more confidence. And when I
know the bullet's going to do the job, Uh, I
don't really I find myself with a safe full of
bigger rifles that I just asked myself, why or why
would why would I get that over this? Well? Not
(14:07):
even like why would why would I pick my three
hundred PRC to shoot a moose over my six creed
right when it's gonna work?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Fine, We've got we both have kiddos growing up in
this hunting world, and so that that to me is
what you're saying too, is what are your kids going
to shoot?
Speaker 6 (14:24):
Really?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Well, like start stocking the safe with that, because if
they can shoot it with confidence and not like sit
there and go dad, you really want me to shoot
this get three hundred rum like I mean, I will,
but I don't know where that SHOT's going because they're
anticipating like a mother, But.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
Not even to go that far like your average thirty
six without a break or a can like you know
rips a pretty good. But my seven year old daughter
kills blackbirds with the twenty two years.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I know that this little guy right here, that's crazy,
all right, man, Tyler?
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Thank you?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Looking to trim a few U lbs out of your
pack or just your firearm? Check out the Savage one
ten carbon Predator two swing syllable studs, Matt Black carbon
steel receiver, two piece weaver style bases, proof research barrel. Yeah,
it's carbon wrap. So that's where some of the weight
savings is gonna come. And you won't be disappointed because
(15:19):
they offer it in a lot of different variations. Six
milimeter are two two three Remington twenty two, two fifty
a favorite of mine, three oh eight six y five
creed More and three hundred Blackout. Now you're talking about weight,
you're talking about how much really is it gonna weigh?
Trust me, you're gonna be able to carry this thing
(15:40):
all day. It's under that seven pound range, so I
promise you it's accurate too.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So trust Savage one ten Carbon Predator for all your
weight savings. Tired of your range time being just mag
dumps and Instagram flexing, interrange ready training. We're director of
awesomeness and everything else. Chris Sereno turns keyboard warriors into
actual warriors or something like that. Pretty dang close, I
(16:07):
would say, yeah, the guy's been there, done that. Pistol check,
rifle check, Yeah, we got it all. Force on force.
We do that every now and then too. Bring your bruises.
Instructor development. Welcome to the Thunderdome of learning. It's more
than training. It's ranged ready because real life doesn't come
(16:27):
with a respawd button. Looking to level up your hunt
and tighten up those groups, well, look no further than
Remington Ammo. Yeah, the stuff in the green box is
super accurate and they've got everything from hunting ammo all
the way to NROL like match amos. So check those out.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Remington Premiere, from Premier tip acutip to match grade ammunition,
all in that green box. You love, you trust, and
you adore. Find it all at Remington dot com. Feel
like your trigger's holding you back more than your ex
fix that with the Timney Alpha Competition trigger for the
Ruger RXm. It's got a crisp three pound pull, no adjustments,
(17:07):
no drama, just pure smooth performance. It installs easier than
Ikea furniture and comes fully hand assembled, tested and calibrated
by real humans, not robots or over caffeinated raccoons, made
in the USA, and backed by a legendary lifetime warranty. Yes,
it will make you more accurate. The rest is on you.
(17:29):
We're gonna jump over now we're gonna talk to Brian Krabs. Brian,
now you've heard the previous two guests. Absolutely phenomenal takes
on it. Where do you land on small calibers for
big game?
Speaker 6 (17:42):
Yeah? Thanks for having me on kJ. You know, everything
that I do from the podcast and helping people is
like I want people to get out west and have
good experiences. I want them to experience the passion that
we all have for big game. And you know this conversation.
Can you know, a good experience means making a good
(18:03):
shot and having a good recovery, and you can trade
one for the other pretty easily. I mean, you can
make a great shot with a twenty two LR on
an elk and have a horrible recovery, right, And so
I'm trying to maximize that to help people have good experiences.
Or you could go and have like a three thirty
eight Lapua that's gonna put an elk down no problem,
but have a terrible shot, and that's not gonnaly do
(18:25):
a good experience either. So I like Jeff he picked two.
He picked two rifles. That is pretty relevant because I
shoot a three hundred win meg. My wife shoots a
six y five creed more, right, So we we approach
shot placement or shot decision differently, right, she can't shoot
that six y five creed More and do the same
things I'm doing with a three hundred win Meg. They're
(18:45):
different ripful systems. Now, we you know bullet quality, that
is I think a standard. Like there's some foundational things, right,
we have to have good shot placement in this day
and age. We need to understand our bullets and our
bullet performance. I like what Tyler said with un understanding
your terminal ballistics. A lot of people like to look
at muzzle ballistics, which doesn't really apply when you're hunting
(19:07):
with a rifle. You need to know what that bullet's
doing three hundred yards down range. And I like to
put all this together in a way that anyone can
apply it, whether you're a seven year old daughter or
whether you're like me, a six to two guy that's
fifty pounds overweight. You know what does that mean? And
so I look at it like a triangle. I'm trying
to maximize the area of this triangle between the shooter capability,
(19:31):
the weapon system capability, and the distance to that particular
animal on that day and that shot.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Right.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
And so if you borrow points from the western or
the weapon system to give them to the shooter, you
don't really change much. You still have to get maybe
to a different distance. But if you can get as
a better shooter, if you can get a better weapon system,
if you can get closer, Like these are all things
that increase that area of that triangle, that's just going
to lead to better chances at a good experience. There's
(20:00):
a lot of things you can do with that, Like
you can practice and you can become a better shooter.
You can practice your stocking skills, and you can get closer.
You can take a three hundred win meg and you
can put a can on it, and you can build
a rifle that weighs twelve pounds if you're willing to
carry that, and you're going to do a lot for
recoil management. I mean, you can do a lot of
things to adjust that triangle. But that's kind of where
(20:21):
I look at it. And if you take that approach,
you can apply almost any caliber rifle and any shooter
and you just say, hey, maybe we are shooting a
little smaller. We're shooting a six millimeter creed more because
my shooter can't handle a three hundred win make and
that means we just have to get in closer to
a ELK we can still do that. That still gives
us an opportunity to go out hunting with the intent
(20:41):
of a good experience.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And well, I man, you guys make all valid points.
And where I go with this is do we overthink it?
Do you know your ballistics well enough to know like
this works? I know this works like the six' Five
creed more like that is one that gets tossed out
more than anything the manbun gun from The, West, like,
(21:05):
MAN i know the ballistics on, that AND i know
my limitations with.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
That i'm choosing it to go out.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
West, Now, brian what would you? Choose a guy coming
out gonna go on his first l hunt and.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Maybe he's new to. Hunting maybe he.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Is he's the guy who's like gonna go out to the.
Ring he's like your typical. Hunter i'm gonna go out
to the. Range i'm gonna make sure my gun insided
in if they do. That so what are they gonna?
Do what do you what are you gonna recommend that
these guys?
Speaker 6 (21:37):
Take, Yeah so there's a couple of guns out there
THAT i really like that can kind of serve as
a one. Platform does it all? Right without going?
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Crazy?
Speaker 6 (21:49):
Right like, yeah three thirty eight lapool will take, everything
and especially if you want, to BUT i don't recommend
real that for most. People, YEAH i like the two seventy.
Win it's a GREAT i think timeless. CALIBER i like
the six y five Creed. More i've seen that bullet
do a lot of good. Things you'd, like you, say
just got to understand. IT i would rather have a
hunter use a weapon system that they can shoot, well for,
(22:12):
example six' Five, Creed MORE and i would rather them
understand that bullet and just know where they need to
get into on an elk rather than think they need
a three hundred win make because that's The HALLMARK western.
Elk rifle but they don't shoot, it well they don't
understand the, ballistics well and they could still lead to.
Bad experiences i'd much rather have them in that other
(22:32):
scenario and just like, push it like you just got
to get into the email a. Little tighter you can't
be taking five hundred inder. Guard shots there's.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
No Way like i've seen more hunters groove extremely bad
habits with a three hundred wind mag or you name
the large calord whatever it, might be THREE hundred rom
three Thirty eight i've seen more hunters groove really bad
habits that transfer over when you move them into. SOMETHING
small i had, a guy Local, guy goodbye he hunts
(23:00):
with me all. The time, he thought man in the
you just use a three hundred Win mag it will,
kill everything one. Hundred percent it will if you can.
Shoot it if you can, shoot it. That's. Great yeah
but we set him UP and i, was, like dude
just shoot my shoot shoot my six five creed more
just for. This season he missed like. Three deer he
(23:21):
missed three deer with the six Five Cre and i'm
not talking these are. Layup shots these aren't like FIVE hundred. I,
won't yeah that's a whole new topic for another. Another
show but he grooved a bunch of. Bad habits he
groove that, flinch in he groove jerking, that trigger and
it transferred into a.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Smaller caliber it's sad. To, see, YEAH.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
Yeah, i mean there's a reason why my three hundred
win meg weighs thirteen POUNDS and i have a monster break.
On it it's to induce that RECOIL so i can
shoot it like it deserves to, be SHOT and i
get the benefit of the extra ENERGY if i couldn't.
DO that i wouldn't be shooting a Gun that i'm
afraid of And that I'm know i'm going.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
To, flinch oh it just it just it kind of
starts chatting ME and i ALWAYS and. I do i
direct a lot of people to go watch uh, you
know the go listen To The tundra talk podcasts and
now Your Podcast, Drawn, west like look at, these guys
like they are doing some amazing things with, small calibers
(24:20):
just based on bullet construction and, terminal ballistics and they
can shoot because they practice. Their CRAFT and i think
that's one thing that's lacking in. Today's, hunter yeah there's
really no excuses in. Today's world we have all the
information in the world on, bullet construction. Terminal performance you,
can shoot you can understand all. This stuff gone are
(24:42):
the days where you just Take the remington corlock and
make sure you still hit the flill deadliest mushroom in. The, woods,
yeah Absolutely. Thanks, brian look let's jump in here and
let's finish. This theme small calibers big game when it
comes to understanding your ballistics and understanding how they work downrange,
(25:04):
Is critical but, most importantly you also need to develop
your skills as a hunter to take down that animal
ethically within the fewest. Shots possible, work competitions gain that
sense of urgency under, the clock the sense of urgency
that comes only when that animal is standing in front.
(25:25):
Of you your, heart's pumping that adrenaline is. Really going
but work, on yourself work those positional, shooting positions work,
under stress understand your, terminal ballistics and you'll have more
success in. The field as always gun, talk hunters this
is kJ keep those barrels point in a safe direction
and always be on.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
The hunt
Popular Podcasts
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.