April 5, 2023 • 39 mins
The Book of Joe Podcast begins with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon enjoying the start of the season and the new pace of the game. Tom explains the early returns and what has already drastically changed on the field. Joe comments on the Anthony Rendon confrontation with a fan and how MLB could make some changes moving forward. Tom notes how the atmosphere in the stands has changed and how fans can take things too far. Back on the field, Tom reveals why he thinks the AL West could be the most interesting division in baseball. Plus, how much concern is there over the Phillies struggling out of the gate?
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hello again, It's time for another edition of the most
Interesting podcast on baseball. It is the Book of Joe
Podcast with Me, Tom Berducci and Joe Madden. Joe, the
(00:24):
baseball season has begun, and I seem to recall there
was a spring training for you with the Angels where
your theme was play like it's what was it, nineteen
eighty five? Yeah, right, right, You must be digging the
baseball that's being played right now, because it does remind
me a little bit of nineteen eighty five. Yeah. Honestly,
(00:47):
I have enjoyed the pace of the whole thing. I have.
I think everybody has. And actually that was one of
the things I wrote on the top of my heat
here today. Yes, no question. I don't think there's anybody
out there's not really enjoying the pace of the game.
And is I guess, but I don't know. It's a
rhetorical question, and maybe it's probably not, But it's just
(01:09):
the pace of the game. Is that enough to to
re conjure interest in the game, the fact that people
could watch it, or sit in a ballpark, or watch
it on TV. It is this going to wear off
the fact that it's a quickler paced game, or is
that the lynchpin to making you want to watch it
more intently? In other words, is that is it a
good enough reason to consider, even at this early juncture
(01:33):
the experiment of success? Um, you know, I still have
I've still heard people talk about, Yes, we love the
pace of the game, but the quality of the game.
You know, there's still a bunch of strikeouts. I don't
even know to what extent base stealing is up. I
know strikes are still there pretty heavily. I remember over
this past weekend reading about the Giants and the Yankees
(01:53):
still having a bunch of punch outs in those games.
So anyway, yes, the pace of the game is wonderful.
I'm just asking you. I guess also with the feedback,
you're more closely connected diame the feedback regarding that and
how it's connected to the actual play of the game,
the actual performance of the game, the fundamentals of the game.
Do people seem to feel or believe that those are
(02:14):
also trending in the right direction. Well, let's see, I'll
just give you some numbers to start out with, in
terms of the time of game because pace of place,
of our time of game, first week of the season,
two hours, thirty nine minutes. It has not been below
two forty five since. Drumroll please a long time. You're
(02:37):
talking about people who are forty and younger who've literally
never seen baseball played like this. I'm happy for them
and happy for the rest of us who are over
forty who are now seeing a better played, crisperg game.
So that's twenty seven minutes of dead time, cut out
one fell swoop from where the game was last year.
(03:00):
And I'll give you an example. I was at Yankee
Stadium or the Yankees playing the Phillies Monday night, first
week night of the season, night game, and I'm telling
you that was a game with nine walks nine runs.
Last year would have taken three and a half hours,
and it was under two forty, right around two forty.
And I'm telling you, if people were there at the
(03:21):
end of the game, even though the game was not competitive,
they stuck around the sear and judges lasted bat If
that's a three and a half hour game, people start
clearing out after two and a half hours. You can
now tell your family and we can go to a
week night game and we can get home in time
and bed in time to go to school tomorrow, to
go to work tomorrow. That makes a huge difference all right. Now,
(03:44):
Phase two, as you astutely pointed out, Joe, is the
quality of play now enough to keep people coming back?
And I think we're getting there. Stolen bases are at
their highest rate right now since two and twelve, the
stolen base percentage. I can't believe this. It's up to
eighty eight percent success rate. And once those dudes in
(04:07):
the analytics office realize that that success rate is that high,
they're going to green light even more attempts, runs, batting average,
home runs, singles, stolen bases all up so far, and yes,
strikeouts are up. We have to give that time though,
because right now we're seeing the front end of rotations
the better pitchers in the game. Let's see how that
(04:29):
plays out. But the other thing, here's a key for me, Joe,
and I know it's key for you. Would have noticed
so far, with the pull side of the field now
open up for groundball singles, launch angle has gone down
for the first time since this launch angle revolution began
in twenty fifteen. In other words, left handed hitters, not
(04:51):
that they want to hit groundballs, but when they do,
they're being rewarded, and when they step in the box,
they don't feel like they have to hit the ball
over the army of people who are on the right
side of the field. So I in time, Joe, to
answer your question, we are getting to a better, more
esthetic game that then we'll keep people coming back to
(05:13):
the ballpark for the product, not just the fact that
it's faster. Cool. Um. Yeah, and the back of your
base stealing part of it too. So the thing I've noticed,
I think, and I could almost imagine this, this might
be from top to bottom. Don't even try regarding stopping
the stone base, because that's something you know, historically there's
a lot of groups that weren't even concerned about the
(05:34):
stone base is being a really big run production productive
part of the game either. So I'm just curious our
teams just saying, you know, listen, I don't want my pictures,
I went our pictures changing any of this if we
if we happen to mitigate it a bit by the
one throwover and then having the other one in our
back pocket in case they don't want to go. Is
(05:56):
the conversation changed because you know, this whole time I've
been talking about pitchops, pitchouts, You're gonna be more prominent.
Pictures will get quicker to the plate. You know, I
thought these different things might become pertinent. But the other
thing I didn't take into consideration is that there's going
to be certain groups I think that might say, don't
worry about it. Even if they steal a base, it's
(06:17):
not a big concern because I don't want you guys
to alter what you're doing out there. Let's still get
up the hitter because the stolen base isn't as pertinent
the scoring runs as some people think it may be.
So I wonder how much that's part of the equation too,
in regards to team philosophies, and again, an analytical department
just trying to analyze when the base is stolen, and
(06:40):
then it would be with zero outs or one out
or two outs, there might be different levels of concern
based on a number of outs in the ning two.
All those things are going to be evaluated. I believe so, yes,
the stolen bases because the games I've watched, I've watched
like not even trying somebody still third base yesterday where
there was not even an attempt by the by the
(07:01):
picture to hold those it was a seattle game, but
not even an attempt to hold him at second base. Slow,
slow to the play, no chance, you know the guy's
going to run. And the same thing with a reliever.
I think with the Indians, was really really slow to
the play, and there was no way he was even
concerned about any of this. So I'd be curious. But
(07:22):
that kind of discussion looks like among analytical people that
don't even worry about it, just be concerned about getting
to hit her out. That's a great point. I think
there's some especially some of the bigger, slower relief pitchers.
I don't think they're going to change their game. I
just think that the green light is a little brighter
because you know, in recent years, it's kind of been
voting to make an out on the basis or even
(07:44):
risking out on the basis, and I think baseball is
starting to lose that. I don't think the stolen base
numbers right now are crazy high. As I mentioned, it's
the highest per game since twenty twelve, so we're not
really talking about the nineteen eighties yet. But that success
rate is super high, so I do think in time
that attempts will go up. That brings me. It's something
that a Commissioner of Baseball, Rob Manford said last week,
(08:08):
and I want to get your reaction to this. Joe.
I was at a luncheon with him at the Paley
Media Center in New York, and he brought up this story,
and we were talking about a better aesthetic game, if
you will, and he said, a long time owner told him,
I've got so many of these analytic guys on my staff.
(08:28):
I have no idea what they're doing. So I spent
one week with them in the bunker trying to decide,
you know, what impact are these guys making. And this
owner told the commissioner. I came away with this impression
analytics is an arms race to nowhere. He didn't think
the effort that was going into this now that everybody
(08:50):
is doing it was producing edges that were measurable, noticeable
difference makers in the game. Not to say they don't exist,
but he thought they were so marginal. This owner that
it's kind of lost that's edge. And the Commissioner Baseball said,
that has become one of my favorite sayings because it's true.
(09:12):
And I think what we're seeing with the rules here,
and it's not to say analytics so not good. You know,
I love them. I love what they're doing in terms
of shaping pitches. What's going on inside these pitching labs
and hitting labs now is just amazing. But when it
comes to the style of the game, I do think
and you saw this, Joe, the pitch framing with shifts.
You were at the forefront of shifts yourself with the
(09:33):
rays of a decade ago, but as everybody started adopting it,
the advantages disappeared and the game suffered, And I think
that's what he was driving at that. Now we're at
a point where you know, you have to have athletics
as m on defense because you can't rely on the
algorithms so tell you where to stand. So I'm curious
(09:55):
to your reactions as a commissioner Baseball now saying that
analytics is a race to nowhere at this point because
they're so far developed and essentially universally adopted. Yeah, I mean, everybody,
You're right, everybody's been trying to get the biggest baseball
ops and I think it's almost the contest to have
the team with the biggest baseball ops. There's so much
redundancy with all of this stuff. It's incredible because if
(10:19):
you hire somebody to be an analyst for your group,
you know what they do all day long the analyze stuff,
and then they really they start presenting things to you that,
you know, really look pretty on a piece of paper,
but have nothing to do with winning. You're losing the
game that night. It's just another thing that I do
because I sit and have to think of things all day,
and thus I'm analytically coming up with these new postures.
(10:41):
Here posture it's and all of a sudden doesn't really matter,
but that's what I'm paid to do. So and like
you're saying, the edges, the edges existed when this all began,
when it was new and unpopular. Basically at that time
went to raise man. The edges were wide. There were
wide edges, and we were just killing it on the
edges and everybody was making fun of us. And then eventually,
(11:04):
I remember the one series that might have talking. We're
playing the Yankees at the trop and I mean they
were hitting bullets everywhere and we're standing right in the way,
and they were like there was smoke coming out of
their ears, the hitters, the Yankee hitters. But that's where
we had our advantage. That's how the race got better quicker,
and that's where people began to take notice, but still
(11:25):
didn't want to do it because we were the outliers.
This is crazy. Why they're doing this stuff. They're trying
to reinvent the game. These are all the things we
heard at that time, but we were working on the
edges and we're working in really well. But now it
really speaks to what I've been saying about the lack
of identity per organization, because everybody wants to be the same.
Everybody is in an arms race, and analysts race in
(11:49):
regards to trying to get more brain power upstairs to
present more paperwork before the game with the attempt or
thought or desire that it's going to help win the
game more than the other side. Not true. Really, this
really speaks. But I think back to what I originally
had spoken to you about that acquisitions. That's where analytics
(12:10):
really shine. So we're talking about is we all have
this huge every team's got this huge, beautiful analytical department
with all these dudes that really are very bright, but
at the end of the day, who has better baseball
players to play the game of baseball better? And that's
really what it comes down to. The preparation to fundamentals,
the execution, the thought or the idea. What do you
(12:31):
consider important within that dug out, within that clubhouse. Everybody
keeps talking about the Indians and how you're kind of
like in a fistfight with these guys when you play
them right, because they're trying to play the game hard
and write not nothing revolutionary here, so to me, if
you really want to be successful in this game, yeah,
get really good baseball players, and yeah, teach the game
(12:54):
fundamentally sound and go out there and play it hard
every night. And while you're doing that, utilize this stuff.
Utilize some information. Put your short stuff in the right
spot as well as you can have your hit. Your
pitchers know exactly where to pitch to the number four
hitter on this team or where he's going to expand
the scrich zone. Yes, that's all part of it, absolutely,
but that's always been part of it. The difference now
(13:14):
is there's so much information. Yes, it's more accurate, it's
more accurate with them. And I was doing it back
in the day. It just is I didn't have that.
We didn't have that those resources to Scott everybody every day,
every game. But at the end of the day, better
baseball players playing better baseball win And how do you
prep your team? I would be so into developing my
(13:35):
own personal organizational philosophy and identity now because if you
do do that now, I think that's the next area
to really get ahead of the rest of the group.
If you could create your own cocktail and live by
it and be successful by that's what you really need
to do. By the way, you owe me two bucks
(13:55):
what I do borrowing from your fine system. When you're people,
you change the devil raise to raise right, people were
still calling the devil raise that baseball team in Cleveland.
They're the Guardiansay, yeah, you want me two bucks. Hey,
when we come back, I want to talk to you, Joe,
about one of your former players as it relates to
(14:17):
fan behavior when your players cross the line, and ask
that question and answer it right after this. Hey, welcome
back to the Book of Joe Podcasts. I'm talking, of course,
with Joe Madden, former manager of the Los Angeles Angels,
(14:41):
and one of those players got in hot water with
the Commissioner's office Anthony Rendon out in Oakland. It's probably
the most uncomfortable walking baseball for players when they leave
the field. There's no tunnel, at least until you get
to the tunnel. You have to walk essentially in front
of the stands and you're actually in arms reach of
the fans. And we saw that somebody said something to Anthony.
(15:04):
He reacted by pulling on the fans shirt and taking
a swipe at him. Thankfully he missed. He was suspended
five games, and basically challenge that got it reduced to
four games. So four game suspension for Anthony random for
what could have been a much worse incident. You think
about what might have happened if he actually made contact
(15:25):
with the fan taking a swing at him. First of all, Joe,
I need your reaction, you know, Anthony, Well, when you
heard about this, what did you think it had to
be something? Whoever this person was had to say something.
Obviously that cut pretty deeply, and like you're saying right there,
that walk is a really tough walk. And I'm betting
now you're going to see other measures being taken to
(15:47):
prevent that from happening again, because there's also that incident
a couple of years ago out in the bullpen too.
I mean, Oakland's right, it's ready for all kinds of
confrontation between fans and players at different times, the way
the whole thing is set up. But what I thought was,
like I said, it had to be something severe. Anthony's
pretty a pretty mild mannered fellow. But also I'm not
(16:10):
advocating fighting, but I also believe what he did there
with all the players around him, that's one of those
things they could actually charge up the team. Like you said,
Fortunately there wasn't any contact made. And you should never
we should never want to go into the stands. You
should never want to do that. But again, I've heard
some stuff, man. I've heard some stuff when I was
managing in Little Rock, Arkansas. We've talked about that. I've
(16:32):
heard some stuff in Port Charlotte. I've heard some stuff
in Shreveport. And I've heard some stuff on Major League
stands which comes out of the stands down to the field.
It's it's crass, it's brutal. It's crude, and I don't
care how much money you pay to get in the ballpark.
People shouldn't be yelling that stuff to players. So yeah,
everybody's gonna put the front of this on Anthony, and
(16:55):
I understand that because we do have to really curb
whatever that desire is for retribution because it could be
dirty sometimes. Man, he gets real dirty. So again I'm
glad he didn't make contact. I want to believe that
we have to be really recognized places like that that
can be a little bit more potentially volatile between fans
(17:18):
and players. So it had to be It had to
be bad because I know Anthony had to be like
really cutting and sharp. But again, weirdly, no harm, no
found his sense. Nobody was hitting, nobody was hurt. This
could really inspire the Angels a bit. I mean the
fact because he got in that fight last year when
they were against Seattle the latter part of the year.
(17:39):
He was the guy that stepped up for that too.
So Anthony, Anthony's got this quiet demeanor about him, but
it absolutely indicates what's going on within him. So there's
so many different ways of looking at it. No, don't
go after Finn, No, don't go in his nets. No,
never attempt to hit one. However, human beings, man, you
get some real dirty stuff being yelled at you, and
I think I'm sure whatever was said at Anthony was
(18:01):
really pretty bad. Yeah, two things to point out here.
At number one, these things have happened all the time, right,
I mean, it's nothing new in terms of this tension
and what people think they are allowed to do with
the ballpark. But number two, I think it has ratchet
it up. I think he's just part of the general
decline in civil discourse, the lack of other people to
(18:22):
stand up and say knock it off and let people
know in a group setting it's not acceptable behavior, rather
than just thinking it's funny or it's acceptable. So I
think this goes on. I think you referenced that ballpark
Joe and the incident in two thousand and four with
Frank Francisco, the reliever for the Texas Rangers. There was
(18:42):
actually a guy who prided himself on heckling people in
that Oakland bullpen, which is right next to this stands.
I guess he went too far in Francisco's book, and
Francisco went too far in his reaction. He threw a
chair into the stands. It broke a woman's nose. There
was a lawsuit that was eventually settled, but an ugly
incident he was suspended fifteen games. I'm gonna take you
(19:05):
back to nineteen eighty six. I was at a game
at Yankee Stadium where Spike Golling and Jim Rice collided
near the left field stands, and in the course of
those two players getting medical attention, a fan grab reached
over and grabbed Jim Rice's hat. Once Jim Rice found
out he was okay and things started to settle, He's like,
where's my hat? He saw someone in the stands wearing it,
(19:27):
Jim Rice, and then about four or five six other
Red Sox players went into the stands at Yankee Stadium.
You talk about a scary incident to retrieve his hat,
and he got it back luckily. I don't think there
was any kind of fine or suspension, but just to
make the point that there's been a long history of
things like this going on in baseball. We should never
(19:49):
accept it. We understand why it happens, but that's a
line a player can't cross. They understand some of the
things that are coming out of the stands here are
really nasty. And I know here's another story for you
and Joe. This is one of your and my favorite players.
Tony Phillips, playing for the Chicago White Sox in nineteen
ninety six, apparently heard a lot of heckling in the
(20:10):
course of the game playing the outfield there. He comes
out of the game after seven innings, and he had
told the fan who was heckling him to meet him
under the left field stands at the old Milwaukee County Stadium.
So during the game, Tony Phillips gets out of his uniform,
goes out under the stands, and left field punches the
dude out. I mean, you cannot advocate that he would
(20:34):
find five thousand dollars, which doesn't sound like a whole lot.
This is punching a fan in the course of a game.
Of course, Tony said the things he was hearing were super,
super nasty, and that's why he responded that way. But
I just think those are sort of isolated incidents. But
I think I'm curious your take on this, Joe. I've
heard from some players that things have gotten nastier in
(20:57):
the stands because people now think they have a quote
unquote right to say what they want. And I've actually
had some people play now say that now people are
betting on games. They actually are angrier when things don't
work out their way. It's an interesting concept now that
betting is so common and people have literally money riding
on the outcome of the game, with a deeper financial
(21:20):
and emotional investment, that ratchet it's up their reaction. It's interesting.
I don't know whether you noticed anything getting worse or
different in your years managing Joe, but I do think
it's a little edgier. I'm not just talking about baseball either, No,
it has, and there's been different cities, and I've had
security come down by the dugouts several times based on
different things that I was hearing just I was hearing
(21:42):
because listen, I'm really locked into a game, so for
me to have to get my attention split like that,
it has to be pretty awful to little. One of
the last ones was in Pittsburgh that I really I
couldn't even focus on the game anymore based on what
was coming out of the stands. And eventually I got
some attention of security there and I got them to
(22:03):
go talk to somebody. But apparently this person was some
kind of a contributor within the group there, and I
didn't get the kind of retribution I was looking for. Yeah,
it's um and you hit the nail on the head,
I believe. I mean all the gambling, the betting stuff,
you know we're talking about when you go to a
ball game in the Son of Domingo, you go to
(22:23):
winter ball down in particularly in the Dominican Republic, which
I've seen a lot of gambling going on in the
in the stands over anything, ball stripe, out hit, whatever
it might be. And there's it does tend to lead
to fights at that in those uh stands, and it's
kind of fun, it's raucous in a sense. But then again,
(22:46):
at the level that society is taking everything to today,
who knows what it could eventually lead to. And now
that gambling is so prevalent in our game in ballparks
up on the board, just talking about a fantasy king
or all these other things that promote betting on the game,
and you're right, it can get even more severe within
the stands. And that's where a player that may disappoint
(23:10):
somebody that's whatever writing on that particular moment. It can't
get it can get dirty. I'm telling you the words dirty,
and I've experienced it with my granddaughter in a World
Series game in Philadelphia. Um, the stuff. You know, as
a grandfather, you know, you might say, you know, the
hell with being a major league manager. I'm going to
defend my granddaughter's honor right here. This is like, it's
(23:30):
that bad. It's that bad, and it's stuff that all
of us normally in a normal walking down the street
or sitting in a restaurant. Somebody came up started blasting
like that they don't have the right to say those
kind of things to you just because they've paid to attend. Um,
So there is there's a there's a downgrading of deviancy
within our whole group, within society. We got it. Like
(23:52):
you said, somebody in the stands really needs to stand
up and say, hey, listen, you know, you know we're
not doing you don't do that here. We don't do
that here, Or tell it, there's a kid sitting right here.
Doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. And I'd love to see
us become more vigilant with that. I know, listen, he's
got securities everywhere, and we're worried about everything everywhere. But
(24:12):
I'm telling you, man, it's you're right. With the gambling component,
it's going to get accelerated, and we just got to
be really careful with that. Yeah, and I just wanted
to double down on what you said about if you're
at a situation like that in a ballpark, you do
not have to accept it. And in fact, I think
it's an obligation to speak up because what goes on
is only what we allow. And a lot of these
(24:35):
new ballparks they do have text messaging where you can
contact anonymously security and just alert them to a situation.
Let those people handle it, but make sure they know
about it. You know, it's a shame that you would
have to leave the ballpark with a negative feeling or
you know, a negative environment around you in the course
(24:58):
of enjoying a game that takes away from your enjoyment
without doing anything about it. So you are empowered, all
are standing up for what's right. It sounds hard sometimes,
but it's not the right thing to do. Is always
the better choice. We're gonna take a quick break and
I want to get Joe's take on the American League West.
Now it's the time of year to overreact because this
(25:21):
is all we have one week so far. But man,
there's a lot to talk about what might be the
most fascinating division in baseball. Okay, Joe, American League West,
and I mean we all have used to Astros as
(25:41):
the team to beat. That's not going to change after
a week of the season. But your buddy Bruce Bocci
already doing a heck of a job with the Texas Rangers.
I think he's got that team not just hoping that
they can win, but believing that they can win. Yes,
I think he's that kind of culture difference maker. Your
(26:01):
Angels are just on fire, and a lot of that
has to do at the momentum Mike Trout and Shoeotani
taking from the WBC into this season, and the Astros
have hit a couple of bumps in the road here
with some injuries, no question about that. But give me
your take on this division, Joe. Is it Is it
going to be a lot tighter than it's been the
(26:22):
last few years? I think so. Um. You know, if
you want to begin with the Angels, I know I
like the pitching a lot because I don't know they're bullpen.
I don't know how well that bullpen is going to
hold up. But the starters are really that good. Those
young starters are that good, big fan. I don't know
Anderson that well, but he's good. But Patrick Sandoval read
Deptner's Suarez. This whole group, they're that good. These guys
(26:46):
are that good, and they're very tightly knit. Their work
ethic is great. They're they're very motivated. So from that perspective,
I do like the pitching a lot. The team on
the field has gotten better. There's just more. There's more
grown ups. That's the word I used to use all
the time. I wanted more grown ups in the locker room.
I like Dreary of always like drey renfro. These guys
are real. And if you have David Fletcher coming off
(27:07):
the bench as a utility guy, obviously that makes you
stronger too. And I like, I tell you the hidden
secret there. I think, is it a hobbies that I
say his name the catcher? Yeah, yeah, he's he's got
a nice presence about him, and I've the limited time
i've seen them play, I really like. I just like
his presence. I think I like his swing. I have
to watch more, but first blush, he's he's really an
(27:29):
interesting young man behind the plate. And of course you
talk about show and Michael and everything, of course, but
and and Taylor Ward. Taylor Ward is that good. This
is not a flute. This guy is that good. He's
that good of a hitter. He has a great approach.
I think he has to do is stay on the
field and be well. But he's he's a nice baseball player.
So yes, And then I did watch the Rangers, and
(27:51):
again their pitching's greatly improved too. They got a really
good team on the field. And and Boach. Boach is
a very calming influence and an inspirational one too. And
he's gonna these guys are gonna quote unquote want to
play for him. Just are I mean, Boach is that
that kind of a dude. He's walks out there. It's like,
you know, Clint Eastwood in the latter days of his
life going out to the Mountain exchange of Pitcher. I mean,
(28:12):
he just has needs to be John Wyn. I think
now it's Clint Eastwood, but I love Boat and I
think that's exactly what he's got going on there. Houston
is gonna be Houston. I mean, coming off a World Series,
there's so many things going on. You don't have as
much time to heal injuries, there is a mental hangover.
I dispute that with anybody that disagrees there is such
(28:33):
a thing as that. In Seattle. Seattle's off to a
rugged start. They lost some tough games I saw with Cleveland,
and but they're nice, they're good, They're going to come back.
I just think that this division has an opportunity to
pretty much, you know, remain tight. It's going to be
a tightly knit race. I think the whole year. I
don't think you're gonna see anybody really break away because
(28:55):
I think the pitching each team has enough pitching to
prevent somebody else from breaking away. So yeah, it is.
It's really interesting and I have, I mean met the
point now again where I could watch a game really
without any kind of feeling that this is a very
able to just look at it, dissect it without any emotion.
(29:16):
I kind of dig in on that. So yeah, I
think that this division is going to be fun to
watch all year, and I think the pitching is really
going to make a big mark within this division. By
the way, I wanted to agree with you on Logano
Hopey thround him a little bit in spring training. He
does have a way about him super confident kid, relaxed
(29:37):
for a young player, driven for sure, but he's just
got this way about him like he knows he belongs.
And we talk a lot about that on the Book
of Joke podcast. When you get to that point where
you belong, it just appears, and it's a good sign
outwardly that he's already in that spot. Good trade for
them that was in the That was a Brandon Mars
trade with the Phillies. Phillies obviously went to the World
(30:00):
Series short term game and maybe marsh just got more
offense in the game than we've seen. But that's a
nice identifier by Perry Manaisi. And to pick up a
catcher like that, and the Phillies knew he was going
to be an everyday catcher. It wasn't like they traded
somebody they undervalued, but they were willing to pay that price.
Let me circle back to something you said, Joe, because
you talked about the hangover right, the letdown, you know,
(30:25):
and it's Houston has done a good job guarding against that.
But I'm looking at the Phillies right now and I've
seen this so many times, and you had two clubs
that went to the World Series came back. You warned
them about it, and it still happened. Phillies slow played
their starting pitchers, especially Nola and Wheeler in spring training
because they pitched that seventh month last year and you
(30:47):
saw it. And again, super small sample size, but first
start not the same Christmas Nola, who's a premier strike
thrower not throwing strikes. They're in trouble if those guys
do not pitch deep into the game and punch people out.
And again I'm not making a big deal of one start,
but just saying I've seen this hopping a lot where
teams it takes them two months to really get established.
(31:09):
After that, you know that excitement and full house every night.
I'm playing a pressurized games for a month straight and
you come back in the environment's different. I'm seeing that
with the Phillies and they're the first team. I look
at Joe and I say they're in trouble. No Breeze, Hoskins.
You know. Bryce Harper is going to come back sooner
than people think. They're just just saying all Star break,
(31:31):
but it wouldn't surprise me if it's early June. Everything
has been going so far, so unless he does have
a setback. He looks pretty good right now, but they're
short that that lineup is not nearly as deep, and
again the pitching now has just crumbled in the first
week of the season. Hangover. I don't know, but Joe,
you've gone through it. I've seen it so many times.
(31:54):
You can't tell me it's not there. There's some element.
I'm not writing off the start entirely to that, but
that's a backdrop that I've seen you've lived at. How
about that hangover effect? Yeah, I mean you mentioned it
in the right there regarding going slowly with the starting
pitchers during spring training, and they feel that they I'm
not disputing that I've done the same thing. We've done
(32:16):
the same thing. I did it with the We did
it with the Angels in two thousand and three, we
did it with the Raise in two thousand and nine,
and two thousand and three didn't turn out well for
the Angels. Two thousand and nine didn't turn out well
for the Raise either, But then two seventeen we did.
We got back with the Cups, we did get back
to the NLCS. So it's too early for me to
(32:37):
really panic in any way, shape or form. If these
guys if these really good players, these really good pitchers,
if you know they're healthy and they really are healthy,
or if there's some kind of little gizmo going on
there that you're aware of that nobody else is, that
could become a little bit more disconcerting and concerning. But overall,
(32:58):
I would just I know what's going on to my
locker room. I know it's going off my guys. I
know whether from I know Schwerber, I know real Mudo.
I mean, yeah, even though Harper's at least there in
the building, Reese Hoskins a nice player, but I still
think that's a little bit more replaceable. I would just
just be patient with that. I mean, they could break
out a win four or five in row anytime now.
(33:19):
They lost what three in Texas? Right, yeah, yep, and
that one in New York. You know, let let them
get home at some point here. Also, little home cooking
may be very beneficial to them too. If this was
happening at home, be a little bit more concerning, I think,
but I would just bear with it. If I'm the
manager of that team, I would just want to know
(33:40):
if anybody's really not healthy here, I'm watching them work.
I'm listening to them talk. I watched them in the
clubhouse where they're coming from. Is there any kind of
inner turmoil going on? No, it looks really good. I
like these guys, the conversations good. Plus I like their
short stuff a lot. And he's gonna get hot. So
all this stuff I think is going to rectify itself. Yeah,
(34:01):
there's no doubt. I think in time they will. When
I asked Rob Thompson if there was anything he, as
a manager, was concerned about besides the results, obviously, the
only thing he pointed out was they have to be
better at strike throwing, and as you know that that
can It's not just the number of walks, although they've
had a lot of those. It's not getting the count
leverage in your favor enough, and that's that's been happening,
(34:23):
especially out of the bullpen for Phillies. I think in
time they'll be fine. But you know, when you start
a season, Joe, until you really established, you've got some momentum,
get that first win, feel like you've got something building.
There's so much attention paid to the short sample of
how you get out of the gate. Yeah, I mean,
you got to stop it. You gotta get back on
(34:44):
the tracks before it really gets gets crazy off the tracks.
But we started with the raised one year. It was
it one in seven or owen seven, oh, and I
don't can't remember what it was, and it was something
that bad. And we're on a plane flight from Tampa
to Chicago to play the White Sox and had a
really good bottle of sharp Bay whiskey with me. So
I got those little little mouthwashed cups and I went
(35:08):
down the aisle, up and down the aisle of the airplane,
and I poured everybody a little shot of shar Bay,
which is really good if you get a shot punt attended. Anyway,
I went up and down yill that went back up,
and I grabbed the microphone in the front from the
flight attendant. I said, you know, here's two the best
one in six, seven, whatever it was, eight team in
the history of Major League Baseball. To stay with it, boys,
(35:31):
we're going to be just fine. And that team ended
up in the playoffs that year, and at the end
of the season, I didn't have any Sharbaila, but I
got another bottle of something. I walked around to the
same thing in the clubhouse after we lost, and I said,
you know what, I was correct. This is the best
one in eight team in the history of Major League Baseball.
So you just got to be patient. Bad things happened
(35:53):
during the year. When it happens in the beginning, you
get up to a bad start. When it happens in
the middle, you have a slump, and what happens at
the end you choke. According to Gene Mark, that was
Jane's way of describe being a bad start in something
that happens badly in the middle, and what happens at
the end of the year, it's either a bad start,
a slump, or you've choked. Game. It's a great game, man,
(36:15):
It's every day. There's an empi flow of emotion. You're right.
I mean, Philly's got to win a couple of games.
They need a short term victory right here to get
them going back in the right direction, and I believe
that they will, and I think to hold the four
down until Bryce gets back. I love the way you
brought it back to nineteen eighty five with Gene Maka
very untentional. What a great line that is though about beginning, middle,
(36:38):
and end. That's so good. I love that one way.
We're never going back to nineteen eighty five. In the
first sixty five games this year, there were five sacrifice bunts.
That's like one game's worth for Gene Mak. That's right,
Jane thought. If he scored one run, you have to
score two to beat them. That was his gig. Hey,
we always like you giving us some pearls of wisdom
(37:00):
getting Addie here. Before you do that, I'm gonna give
you one from the great Vince Gully. Since I was
remissing in bringing up this line from the Jim Rice
game where he went into the stands at Yankee Stadium.
That was actually an NBC Game of the Week. Okay,
we're really going back in the time machine now then,
and Joe Garagiola doing the game. How great is that? Well?
(37:20):
And they showed a replay of the fan while Jim
Rice and Spike on are on the ground on the
warning track next to the stands. There's the fan reaching
over to grab Jim Rice's hat, and Vince Gully is
only Vince. All he can do said, that's like a
an auto accident and somebody steals your watch. The humanity
(37:43):
of it's so good. I love that. So with that,
give us something to take out of here. Joe and
Spike was one of my old roomies up in Boulder, Coloraud.
I played with Spikey Spike was a lot of fun.
Love Spike, Oh, and can't get enough of that guy.
University of Texas. Yeah, this is this is Stephen Kobe
(38:03):
and back. And I think it was in the eighties. Also,
I read the book Seven Habits of Highly Successful People.
That's when I was really trying to understand myself better.
I was really trying to understand others. Seek first to understand,
then to be understood. That was one of his covenants
of Covey, Stephen Covey, and I've always loved that seek
(38:25):
first to understood, stand and then to be understood. But
beyond that, the one thing that I'm going to say
right now, I would love this because you know those
that that group of people out there that really suffer
from a victim's complex. I really find that unattractive. And
mister Kobe said, I am not a product of my circumstances.
(38:47):
I am a product of my decisions. And I love that.
And yeah, so I read him. I read his Speed
of Trust. That boy his son, his son wrote a
book called The Speed of Trust. They can't. Might have
been Steve Stephen Kobe junior. Right, So I read all
Kobe stuff is and his kids stuff. But I've always
been a big fan. I'm not a product of my circumstances.
I'm a product of my decisions, accountability. I love that
(39:11):
reminds me of Albert Camu. We are a product of
our choices. Here you go, very well said. We'll see
you next time, Joe straight, even if you don't, it's
a good day. It was yesterday over at in Lakeside,
Lakeside where all the stars. It was with Tom Dreeson,
Ray Romano and Jay Rowlands, Brady Brady Anderson when the
(39:33):
Long Drive Ball was a really fun day. A little
windy though, brother, about twenty mile hour winds. Yeah, I
feel bad for you. Let's see you next time. Thank you.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
(39:56):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hello again, It's time for another edition of the most
Interesting podcast on baseball. It is the Book of Joe
Podcast with Me, Tom Berducci and Joe Madden. Joe, the
(00:24):
baseball season has begun, and I seem to recall there
was a spring training for you with the Angels where
your theme was play like it's what was it, nineteen
eighty five? Yeah, right, right, You must be digging the
baseball that's being played right now, because it does remind
me a little bit of nineteen eighty five. Yeah. Honestly,
(00:47):
I have enjoyed the pace of the whole thing. I have.
I think everybody has. And actually that was one of
the things I wrote on the top of my heat
here today. Yes, no question. I don't think there's anybody
out there's not really enjoying the pace of the game.
And is I guess, but I don't know. It's a
rhetorical question, and maybe it's probably not, But it's just
(01:09):
the pace of the game. Is that enough to to
re conjure interest in the game, the fact that people
could watch it, or sit in a ballpark, or watch
it on TV. It is this going to wear off
the fact that it's a quickler paced game, or is
that the lynchpin to making you want to watch it
more intently? In other words, is that is it a
good enough reason to consider, even at this early juncture
(01:33):
the experiment of success? Um, you know, I still have
I've still heard people talk about, Yes, we love the
pace of the game, but the quality of the game.
You know, there's still a bunch of strikeouts. I don't
even know to what extent base stealing is up. I
know strikes are still there pretty heavily. I remember over
this past weekend reading about the Giants and the Yankees
(01:53):
still having a bunch of punch outs in those games.
So anyway, yes, the pace of the game is wonderful.
I'm just asking you. I guess also with the feedback,
you're more closely connected diame the feedback regarding that and
how it's connected to the actual play of the game,
the actual performance of the game, the fundamentals of the game.
Do people seem to feel or believe that those are
(02:14):
also trending in the right direction. Well, let's see, I'll
just give you some numbers to start out with, in
terms of the time of game because pace of place,
of our time of game, first week of the season,
two hours, thirty nine minutes. It has not been below
two forty five since. Drumroll please a long time. You're
(02:37):
talking about people who are forty and younger who've literally
never seen baseball played like this. I'm happy for them
and happy for the rest of us who are over
forty who are now seeing a better played, crisperg game.
So that's twenty seven minutes of dead time, cut out
one fell swoop from where the game was last year.
(03:00):
And I'll give you an example. I was at Yankee
Stadium or the Yankees playing the Phillies Monday night, first
week night of the season, night game, and I'm telling
you that was a game with nine walks nine runs.
Last year would have taken three and a half hours,
and it was under two forty, right around two forty.
And I'm telling you, if people were there at the
(03:21):
end of the game, even though the game was not competitive,
they stuck around the sear and judges lasted bat If
that's a three and a half hour game, people start
clearing out after two and a half hours. You can
now tell your family and we can go to a
week night game and we can get home in time
and bed in time to go to school tomorrow, to
go to work tomorrow. That makes a huge difference all right. Now,
(03:44):
Phase two, as you astutely pointed out, Joe, is the
quality of play now enough to keep people coming back?
And I think we're getting there. Stolen bases are at
their highest rate right now since two and twelve, the
stolen base percentage. I can't believe this. It's up to
eighty eight percent success rate. And once those dudes in
(04:07):
the analytics office realize that that success rate is that high,
they're going to green light even more attempts, runs, batting average,
home runs, singles, stolen bases all up so far, and yes,
strikeouts are up. We have to give that time though,
because right now we're seeing the front end of rotations
the better pitchers in the game. Let's see how that
(04:29):
plays out. But the other thing, here's a key for me, Joe,
and I know it's key for you. Would have noticed
so far, with the pull side of the field now
open up for groundball singles, launch angle has gone down
for the first time since this launch angle revolution began
in twenty fifteen. In other words, left handed hitters, not
(04:51):
that they want to hit groundballs, but when they do,
they're being rewarded, and when they step in the box,
they don't feel like they have to hit the ball
over the army of people who are on the right
side of the field. So I in time, Joe, to
answer your question, we are getting to a better, more
esthetic game that then we'll keep people coming back to
(05:13):
the ballpark for the product, not just the fact that
it's faster. Cool. Um. Yeah, and the back of your
base stealing part of it too. So the thing I've noticed,
I think, and I could almost imagine this, this might
be from top to bottom. Don't even try regarding stopping
the stone base, because that's something you know, historically there's
a lot of groups that weren't even concerned about the
(05:34):
stone base is being a really big run production productive
part of the game either. So I'm just curious our
teams just saying, you know, listen, I don't want my pictures,
I went our pictures changing any of this if we
if we happen to mitigate it a bit by the
one throwover and then having the other one in our
back pocket in case they don't want to go. Is
(05:56):
the conversation changed because you know, this whole time I've
been talking about pitchops, pitchouts, You're gonna be more prominent.
Pictures will get quicker to the plate. You know, I
thought these different things might become pertinent. But the other
thing I didn't take into consideration is that there's going
to be certain groups I think that might say, don't
worry about it. Even if they steal a base, it's
(06:17):
not a big concern because I don't want you guys
to alter what you're doing out there. Let's still get
up the hitter because the stolen base isn't as pertinent
the scoring runs as some people think it may be.
So I wonder how much that's part of the equation too,
in regards to team philosophies, and again, an analytical department
just trying to analyze when the base is stolen, and
(06:40):
then it would be with zero outs or one out
or two outs, there might be different levels of concern
based on a number of outs in the ning two.
All those things are going to be evaluated. I believe so, yes,
the stolen bases because the games I've watched, I've watched
like not even trying somebody still third base yesterday where
there was not even an attempt by the by the
(07:01):
picture to hold those it was a seattle game, but
not even an attempt to hold him at second base. Slow,
slow to the play, no chance, you know the guy's
going to run. And the same thing with a reliever.
I think with the Indians, was really really slow to
the play, and there was no way he was even
concerned about any of this. So I'd be curious. But
(07:22):
that kind of discussion looks like among analytical people that
don't even worry about it, just be concerned about getting
to hit her out. That's a great point. I think
there's some especially some of the bigger, slower relief pitchers.
I don't think they're going to change their game. I
just think that the green light is a little brighter
because you know, in recent years, it's kind of been
voting to make an out on the basis or even
(07:44):
risking out on the basis, and I think baseball is
starting to lose that. I don't think the stolen base
numbers right now are crazy high. As I mentioned, it's
the highest per game since twenty twelve, so we're not
really talking about the nineteen eighties yet. But that success
rate is super high, so I do think in time
that attempts will go up. That brings me. It's something
that a Commissioner of Baseball, Rob Manford said last week,
(08:08):
and I want to get your reaction to this. Joe.
I was at a luncheon with him at the Paley
Media Center in New York, and he brought up this story,
and we were talking about a better aesthetic game, if
you will, and he said, a long time owner told him,
I've got so many of these analytic guys on my staff.
(08:28):
I have no idea what they're doing. So I spent
one week with them in the bunker trying to decide,
you know, what impact are these guys making. And this
owner told the commissioner. I came away with this impression
analytics is an arms race to nowhere. He didn't think
the effort that was going into this now that everybody
(08:50):
is doing it was producing edges that were measurable, noticeable
difference makers in the game. Not to say they don't exist,
but he thought they were so marginal. This owner that
it's kind of lost that's edge. And the Commissioner Baseball said,
that has become one of my favorite sayings because it's true.
(09:12):
And I think what we're seeing with the rules here,
and it's not to say analytics so not good. You know,
I love them. I love what they're doing in terms
of shaping pitches. What's going on inside these pitching labs
and hitting labs now is just amazing. But when it
comes to the style of the game, I do think
and you saw this, Joe, the pitch framing with shifts.
You were at the forefront of shifts yourself with the
(09:33):
rays of a decade ago, but as everybody started adopting it,
the advantages disappeared and the game suffered, And I think
that's what he was driving at that. Now we're at
a point where you know, you have to have athletics
as m on defense because you can't rely on the
algorithms so tell you where to stand. So I'm curious
(09:55):
to your reactions as a commissioner Baseball now saying that
analytics is a race to nowhere at this point because
they're so far developed and essentially universally adopted. Yeah, I mean, everybody,
You're right, everybody's been trying to get the biggest baseball
ops and I think it's almost the contest to have
the team with the biggest baseball ops. There's so much
redundancy with all of this stuff. It's incredible because if
(10:19):
you hire somebody to be an analyst for your group,
you know what they do all day long the analyze stuff,
and then they really they start presenting things to you that,
you know, really look pretty on a piece of paper,
but have nothing to do with winning. You're losing the
game that night. It's just another thing that I do
because I sit and have to think of things all day,
and thus I'm analytically coming up with these new postures.
(10:41):
Here posture it's and all of a sudden doesn't really matter,
but that's what I'm paid to do. So and like
you're saying, the edges, the edges existed when this all began,
when it was new and unpopular. Basically at that time
went to raise man. The edges were wide. There were
wide edges, and we were just killing it on the
edges and everybody was making fun of us. And then eventually,
(11:04):
I remember the one series that might have talking. We're
playing the Yankees at the trop and I mean they
were hitting bullets everywhere and we're standing right in the way,
and they were like there was smoke coming out of
their ears, the hitters, the Yankee hitters. But that's where
we had our advantage. That's how the race got better quicker,
and that's where people began to take notice, but still
(11:25):
didn't want to do it because we were the outliers.
This is crazy. Why they're doing this stuff. They're trying
to reinvent the game. These are all the things we
heard at that time, but we were working on the
edges and we're working in really well. But now it
really speaks to what I've been saying about the lack
of identity per organization, because everybody wants to be the same.
Everybody is in an arms race, and analysts race in
(11:49):
regards to trying to get more brain power upstairs to
present more paperwork before the game with the attempt or
thought or desire that it's going to help win the
game more than the other side. Not true. Really, this
really speaks. But I think back to what I originally
had spoken to you about that acquisitions. That's where analytics
(12:10):
really shine. So we're talking about is we all have
this huge every team's got this huge, beautiful analytical department
with all these dudes that really are very bright, but
at the end of the day, who has better baseball
players to play the game of baseball better? And that's
really what it comes down to. The preparation to fundamentals,
the execution, the thought or the idea. What do you
(12:31):
consider important within that dug out, within that clubhouse. Everybody
keeps talking about the Indians and how you're kind of
like in a fistfight with these guys when you play
them right, because they're trying to play the game hard
and write not nothing revolutionary here, so to me, if
you really want to be successful in this game, yeah,
get really good baseball players, and yeah, teach the game
(12:54):
fundamentally sound and go out there and play it hard
every night. And while you're doing that, utilize this stuff.
Utilize some information. Put your short stuff in the right
spot as well as you can have your hit. Your
pitchers know exactly where to pitch to the number four
hitter on this team or where he's going to expand
the scrich zone. Yes, that's all part of it, absolutely,
but that's always been part of it. The difference now
(13:14):
is there's so much information. Yes, it's more accurate, it's
more accurate with them. And I was doing it back
in the day. It just is I didn't have that.
We didn't have that those resources to Scott everybody every day,
every game. But at the end of the day, better
baseball players playing better baseball win And how do you
prep your team? I would be so into developing my
(13:35):
own personal organizational philosophy and identity now because if you
do do that now, I think that's the next area
to really get ahead of the rest of the group.
If you could create your own cocktail and live by
it and be successful by that's what you really need
to do. By the way, you owe me two bucks
(13:55):
what I do borrowing from your fine system. When you're people,
you change the devil raise to raise right, people were
still calling the devil raise that baseball team in Cleveland.
They're the Guardiansay, yeah, you want me two bucks. Hey,
when we come back, I want to talk to you, Joe,
about one of your former players as it relates to
(14:17):
fan behavior when your players cross the line, and ask
that question and answer it right after this. Hey, welcome
back to the Book of Joe Podcasts. I'm talking, of course,
with Joe Madden, former manager of the Los Angeles Angels,
(14:41):
and one of those players got in hot water with
the Commissioner's office Anthony Rendon out in Oakland. It's probably
the most uncomfortable walking baseball for players when they leave
the field. There's no tunnel, at least until you get
to the tunnel. You have to walk essentially in front
of the stands and you're actually in arms reach of
the fans. And we saw that somebody said something to Anthony.
(15:04):
He reacted by pulling on the fans shirt and taking
a swipe at him. Thankfully he missed. He was suspended
five games, and basically challenge that got it reduced to
four games. So four game suspension for Anthony random for
what could have been a much worse incident. You think
about what might have happened if he actually made contact
(15:25):
with the fan taking a swing at him. First of all, Joe,
I need your reaction, you know, Anthony, Well, when you
heard about this, what did you think it had to
be something? Whoever this person was had to say something.
Obviously that cut pretty deeply, and like you're saying right there,
that walk is a really tough walk. And I'm betting
now you're going to see other measures being taken to
(15:47):
prevent that from happening again, because there's also that incident
a couple of years ago out in the bullpen too.
I mean, Oakland's right, it's ready for all kinds of
confrontation between fans and players at different times, the way
the whole thing is set up. But what I thought was,
like I said, it had to be something severe. Anthony's
pretty a pretty mild mannered fellow. But also I'm not
(16:10):
advocating fighting, but I also believe what he did there
with all the players around him, that's one of those
things they could actually charge up the team. Like you said,
Fortunately there wasn't any contact made. And you should never
we should never want to go into the stands. You
should never want to do that. But again, I've heard
some stuff, man. I've heard some stuff when I was
managing in Little Rock, Arkansas. We've talked about that. I've
(16:32):
heard some stuff in Port Charlotte. I've heard some stuff
in Shreveport. And I've heard some stuff on Major League
stands which comes out of the stands down to the field.
It's it's crass, it's brutal. It's crude, and I don't
care how much money you pay to get in the ballpark.
People shouldn't be yelling that stuff to players. So yeah,
everybody's gonna put the front of this on Anthony, and
(16:55):
I understand that because we do have to really curb
whatever that desire is for retribution because it could be
dirty sometimes. Man, he gets real dirty. So again I'm
glad he didn't make contact. I want to believe that
we have to be really recognized places like that that
can be a little bit more potentially volatile between fans
(17:18):
and players. So it had to be It had to
be bad because I know Anthony had to be like
really cutting and sharp. But again, weirdly, no harm, no
found his sense. Nobody was hitting, nobody was hurt. This
could really inspire the Angels a bit. I mean the
fact because he got in that fight last year when
they were against Seattle the latter part of the year.
(17:39):
He was the guy that stepped up for that too.
So Anthony, Anthony's got this quiet demeanor about him, but
it absolutely indicates what's going on within him. So there's
so many different ways of looking at it. No, don't
go after Finn, No, don't go in his nets. No,
never attempt to hit one. However, human beings, man, you
get some real dirty stuff being yelled at you, and
I think I'm sure whatever was said at Anthony was
(18:01):
really pretty bad. Yeah, two things to point out here.
At number one, these things have happened all the time, right,
I mean, it's nothing new in terms of this tension
and what people think they are allowed to do with
the ballpark. But number two, I think it has ratchet
it up. I think he's just part of the general
decline in civil discourse, the lack of other people to
(18:22):
stand up and say knock it off and let people
know in a group setting it's not acceptable behavior, rather
than just thinking it's funny or it's acceptable. So I
think this goes on. I think you referenced that ballpark
Joe and the incident in two thousand and four with
Frank Francisco, the reliever for the Texas Rangers. There was
(18:42):
actually a guy who prided himself on heckling people in
that Oakland bullpen, which is right next to this stands.
I guess he went too far in Francisco's book, and
Francisco went too far in his reaction. He threw a
chair into the stands. It broke a woman's nose. There
was a lawsuit that was eventually settled, but an ugly
incident he was suspended fifteen games. I'm gonna take you
(19:05):
back to nineteen eighty six. I was at a game
at Yankee Stadium where Spike Golling and Jim Rice collided
near the left field stands, and in the course of
those two players getting medical attention, a fan grab reached
over and grabbed Jim Rice's hat. Once Jim Rice found
out he was okay and things started to settle, He's like,
where's my hat? He saw someone in the stands wearing it,
(19:27):
Jim Rice, and then about four or five six other
Red Sox players went into the stands at Yankee Stadium.
You talk about a scary incident to retrieve his hat,
and he got it back luckily. I don't think there
was any kind of fine or suspension, but just to
make the point that there's been a long history of
things like this going on in baseball. We should never
(19:49):
accept it. We understand why it happens, but that's a
line a player can't cross. They understand some of the
things that are coming out of the stands here are
really nasty. And I know here's another story for you
and Joe. This is one of your and my favorite players.
Tony Phillips, playing for the Chicago White Sox in nineteen
ninety six, apparently heard a lot of heckling in the
(20:10):
course of the game playing the outfield there. He comes
out of the game after seven innings, and he had
told the fan who was heckling him to meet him
under the left field stands at the old Milwaukee County Stadium.
So during the game, Tony Phillips gets out of his uniform,
goes out under the stands, and left field punches the
dude out. I mean, you cannot advocate that he would
(20:34):
find five thousand dollars, which doesn't sound like a whole lot.
This is punching a fan in the course of a game.
Of course, Tony said the things he was hearing were super,
super nasty, and that's why he responded that way. But
I just think those are sort of isolated incidents. But
I think I'm curious your take on this, Joe. I've
heard from some players that things have gotten nastier in
(20:57):
the stands because people now think they have a quote
unquote right to say what they want. And I've actually
had some people play now say that now people are
betting on games. They actually are angrier when things don't
work out their way. It's an interesting concept now that
betting is so common and people have literally money riding
on the outcome of the game, with a deeper financial
(21:20):
and emotional investment, that ratchet it's up their reaction. It's interesting.
I don't know whether you noticed anything getting worse or
different in your years managing Joe, but I do think
it's a little edgier. I'm not just talking about baseball either, No,
it has, and there's been different cities, and I've had
security come down by the dugouts several times based on
different things that I was hearing just I was hearing
(21:42):
because listen, I'm really locked into a game, so for
me to have to get my attention split like that,
it has to be pretty awful to little. One of
the last ones was in Pittsburgh that I really I
couldn't even focus on the game anymore based on what
was coming out of the stands. And eventually I got
some attention of security there and I got them to
(22:03):
go talk to somebody. But apparently this person was some
kind of a contributor within the group there, and I
didn't get the kind of retribution I was looking for. Yeah,
it's um and you hit the nail on the head,
I believe. I mean all the gambling, the betting stuff,
you know we're talking about when you go to a
ball game in the Son of Domingo, you go to
(22:23):
winter ball down in particularly in the Dominican Republic, which
I've seen a lot of gambling going on in the
in the stands over anything, ball stripe, out hit, whatever
it might be. And there's it does tend to lead
to fights at that in those uh stands, and it's
kind of fun, it's raucous in a sense. But then again,
(22:46):
at the level that society is taking everything to today,
who knows what it could eventually lead to. And now
that gambling is so prevalent in our game in ballparks
up on the board, just talking about a fantasy king
or all these other things that promote betting on the game,
and you're right, it can get even more severe within
the stands. And that's where a player that may disappoint
(23:10):
somebody that's whatever writing on that particular moment. It can't
get it can get dirty. I'm telling you the words dirty,
and I've experienced it with my granddaughter in a World
Series game in Philadelphia. Um, the stuff. You know, as
a grandfather, you know, you might say, you know, the
hell with being a major league manager. I'm going to
defend my granddaughter's honor right here. This is like, it's
(23:30):
that bad. It's that bad, and it's stuff that all
of us normally in a normal walking down the street
or sitting in a restaurant. Somebody came up started blasting
like that they don't have the right to say those
kind of things to you just because they've paid to attend. Um,
So there is there's a there's a downgrading of deviancy
within our whole group, within society. We got it. Like
(23:52):
you said, somebody in the stands really needs to stand
up and say, hey, listen, you know, you know we're
not doing you don't do that here. We don't do
that here, Or tell it, there's a kid sitting right here.
Doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. And I'd love to see
us become more vigilant with that. I know, listen, he's
got securities everywhere, and we're worried about everything everywhere. But
(24:12):
I'm telling you, man, it's you're right. With the gambling component,
it's going to get accelerated, and we just got to
be really careful with that. Yeah, and I just wanted
to double down on what you said about if you're
at a situation like that in a ballpark, you do
not have to accept it. And in fact, I think
it's an obligation to speak up because what goes on
is only what we allow. And a lot of these
(24:35):
new ballparks they do have text messaging where you can
contact anonymously security and just alert them to a situation.
Let those people handle it, but make sure they know
about it. You know, it's a shame that you would
have to leave the ballpark with a negative feeling or
you know, a negative environment around you in the course
(24:58):
of enjoying a game that takes away from your enjoyment
without doing anything about it. So you are empowered, all
are standing up for what's right. It sounds hard sometimes,
but it's not the right thing to do. Is always
the better choice. We're gonna take a quick break and
I want to get Joe's take on the American League West.
Now it's the time of year to overreact because this
(25:21):
is all we have one week so far. But man,
there's a lot to talk about what might be the
most fascinating division in baseball. Okay, Joe, American League West,
and I mean we all have used to Astros as
(25:41):
the team to beat. That's not going to change after
a week of the season. But your buddy Bruce Bocci
already doing a heck of a job with the Texas Rangers.
I think he's got that team not just hoping that
they can win, but believing that they can win. Yes,
I think he's that kind of culture difference maker. Your
(26:01):
Angels are just on fire, and a lot of that
has to do at the momentum Mike Trout and Shoeotani
taking from the WBC into this season, and the Astros
have hit a couple of bumps in the road here
with some injuries, no question about that. But give me
your take on this division, Joe. Is it Is it
going to be a lot tighter than it's been the
(26:22):
last few years? I think so. Um. You know, if
you want to begin with the Angels, I know I
like the pitching a lot because I don't know they're bullpen.
I don't know how well that bullpen is going to
hold up. But the starters are really that good. Those
young starters are that good, big fan. I don't know
Anderson that well, but he's good. But Patrick Sandoval read
Deptner's Suarez. This whole group, they're that good. These guys
(26:46):
are that good, and they're very tightly knit. Their work
ethic is great. They're they're very motivated. So from that perspective,
I do like the pitching a lot. The team on
the field has gotten better. There's just more. There's more
grown ups. That's the word I used to use all
the time. I wanted more grown ups in the locker room.
I like Dreary of always like drey renfro. These guys
are real. And if you have David Fletcher coming off
(27:07):
the bench as a utility guy, obviously that makes you
stronger too. And I like, I tell you the hidden
secret there. I think, is it a hobbies that I
say his name the catcher? Yeah, yeah, he's he's got
a nice presence about him, and I've the limited time
i've seen them play, I really like. I just like
his presence. I think I like his swing. I have
to watch more, but first blush, he's he's really an
(27:29):
interesting young man behind the plate. And of course you
talk about show and Michael and everything, of course, but
and and Taylor Ward. Taylor Ward is that good. This
is not a flute. This guy is that good. He's
that good of a hitter. He has a great approach.
I think he has to do is stay on the
field and be well. But he's he's a nice baseball player.
So yes, And then I did watch the Rangers, and
(27:51):
again their pitching's greatly improved too. They got a really
good team on the field. And and Boach. Boach is
a very calming influence and an inspirational one too. And
he's gonna these guys are gonna quote unquote want to
play for him. Just are I mean, Boach is that
that kind of a dude. He's walks out there. It's like,
you know, Clint Eastwood in the latter days of his
life going out to the Mountain exchange of Pitcher. I mean,
(28:12):
he just has needs to be John Wyn. I think
now it's Clint Eastwood, but I love Boat and I
think that's exactly what he's got going on there. Houston
is gonna be Houston. I mean, coming off a World Series,
there's so many things going on. You don't have as
much time to heal injuries, there is a mental hangover.
I dispute that with anybody that disagrees there is such
(28:33):
a thing as that. In Seattle. Seattle's off to a
rugged start. They lost some tough games I saw with Cleveland,
and but they're nice, they're good, They're going to come back.
I just think that this division has an opportunity to
pretty much, you know, remain tight. It's going to be
a tightly knit race. I think the whole year. I
don't think you're gonna see anybody really break away because
(28:55):
I think the pitching each team has enough pitching to
prevent somebody else from breaking away. So yeah, it is.
It's really interesting and I have, I mean met the
point now again where I could watch a game really
without any kind of feeling that this is a very
able to just look at it, dissect it without any emotion.
(29:16):
I kind of dig in on that. So yeah, I
think that this division is going to be fun to
watch all year, and I think the pitching is really
going to make a big mark within this division. By
the way, I wanted to agree with you on Logano
Hopey thround him a little bit in spring training. He
does have a way about him super confident kid, relaxed
(29:37):
for a young player, driven for sure, but he's just
got this way about him like he knows he belongs.
And we talk a lot about that on the Book
of Joke podcast. When you get to that point where
you belong, it just appears, and it's a good sign
outwardly that he's already in that spot. Good trade for
them that was in the That was a Brandon Mars
trade with the Phillies. Phillies obviously went to the World
(30:00):
Series short term game and maybe marsh just got more
offense in the game than we've seen. But that's a
nice identifier by Perry Manaisi. And to pick up a
catcher like that, and the Phillies knew he was going
to be an everyday catcher. It wasn't like they traded
somebody they undervalued, but they were willing to pay that price.
Let me circle back to something you said, Joe, because
you talked about the hangover right, the letdown, you know,
(30:25):
and it's Houston has done a good job guarding against that.
But I'm looking at the Phillies right now and I've
seen this so many times, and you had two clubs
that went to the World Series came back. You warned
them about it, and it still happened. Phillies slow played
their starting pitchers, especially Nola and Wheeler in spring training
because they pitched that seventh month last year and you
(30:47):
saw it. And again, super small sample size, but first
start not the same Christmas Nola, who's a premier strike
thrower not throwing strikes. They're in trouble if those guys
do not pitch deep into the game and punch people out.
And again I'm not making a big deal of one start,
but just saying I've seen this hopping a lot where
teams it takes them two months to really get established.
(31:09):
After that, you know that excitement and full house every night.
I'm playing a pressurized games for a month straight and
you come back in the environment's different. I'm seeing that
with the Phillies and they're the first team. I look
at Joe and I say they're in trouble. No Breeze, Hoskins.
You know. Bryce Harper is going to come back sooner
than people think. They're just just saying all Star break,
(31:31):
but it wouldn't surprise me if it's early June. Everything
has been going so far, so unless he does have
a setback. He looks pretty good right now, but they're
short that that lineup is not nearly as deep, and
again the pitching now has just crumbled in the first
week of the season. Hangover. I don't know, but Joe,
you've gone through it. I've seen it so many times.
(31:54):
You can't tell me it's not there. There's some element.
I'm not writing off the start entirely to that, but
that's a backdrop that I've seen you've lived at. How
about that hangover effect? Yeah, I mean you mentioned it
in the right there regarding going slowly with the starting
pitchers during spring training, and they feel that they I'm
not disputing that I've done the same thing. We've done
(32:16):
the same thing. I did it with the We did
it with the Angels in two thousand and three, we
did it with the Raise in two thousand and nine,
and two thousand and three didn't turn out well for
the Angels. Two thousand and nine didn't turn out well
for the Raise either, But then two seventeen we did.
We got back with the Cups, we did get back
to the NLCS. So it's too early for me to
(32:37):
really panic in any way, shape or form. If these
guys if these really good players, these really good pitchers,
if you know they're healthy and they really are healthy,
or if there's some kind of little gizmo going on
there that you're aware of that nobody else is, that
could become a little bit more disconcerting and concerning. But overall,
(32:58):
I would just I know what's going on to my
locker room. I know it's going off my guys. I
know whether from I know Schwerber, I know real Mudo.
I mean, yeah, even though Harper's at least there in
the building, Reese Hoskins a nice player, but I still
think that's a little bit more replaceable. I would just
just be patient with that. I mean, they could break
out a win four or five in row anytime now.
(33:19):
They lost what three in Texas? Right, yeah, yep, and
that one in New York. You know, let let them
get home at some point here. Also, little home cooking
may be very beneficial to them too. If this was
happening at home, be a little bit more concerning, I think,
but I would just bear with it. If I'm the
manager of that team, I would just want to know
(33:40):
if anybody's really not healthy here, I'm watching them work.
I'm listening to them talk. I watched them in the
clubhouse where they're coming from. Is there any kind of
inner turmoil going on? No, it looks really good. I
like these guys, the conversations good. Plus I like their
short stuff a lot. And he's gonna get hot. So
all this stuff I think is going to rectify itself. Yeah,
(34:01):
there's no doubt. I think in time they will. When
I asked Rob Thompson if there was anything he, as
a manager, was concerned about besides the results, obviously, the
only thing he pointed out was they have to be
better at strike throwing, and as you know that that
can It's not just the number of walks, although they've
had a lot of those. It's not getting the count
leverage in your favor enough, and that's that's been happening,
(34:23):
especially out of the bullpen for Phillies. I think in
time they'll be fine. But you know, when you start
a season, Joe, until you really established, you've got some momentum,
get that first win, feel like you've got something building.
There's so much attention paid to the short sample of
how you get out of the gate. Yeah, I mean,
you got to stop it. You gotta get back on
(34:44):
the tracks before it really gets gets crazy off the tracks.
But we started with the raised one year. It was
it one in seven or owen seven, oh, and I
don't can't remember what it was, and it was something
that bad. And we're on a plane flight from Tampa
to Chicago to play the White Sox and had a
really good bottle of sharp Bay whiskey with me. So
I got those little little mouthwashed cups and I went
(35:08):
down the aisle, up and down the aisle of the airplane,
and I poured everybody a little shot of shar Bay,
which is really good if you get a shot punt attended. Anyway,
I went up and down yill that went back up,
and I grabbed the microphone in the front from the
flight attendant. I said, you know, here's two the best
one in six, seven, whatever it was, eight team in
the history of Major League Baseball. To stay with it, boys,
(35:31):
we're going to be just fine. And that team ended
up in the playoffs that year, and at the end
of the season, I didn't have any Sharbaila, but I
got another bottle of something. I walked around to the
same thing in the clubhouse after we lost, and I said,
you know what, I was correct. This is the best
one in eight team in the history of Major League Baseball.
So you just got to be patient. Bad things happened
(35:53):
during the year. When it happens in the beginning, you
get up to a bad start. When it happens in
the middle, you have a slump, and what happens at
the end you choke. According to Gene Mark, that was
Jane's way of describe being a bad start in something
that happens badly in the middle, and what happens at
the end of the year, it's either a bad start,
a slump, or you've choked. Game. It's a great game, man,
(36:15):
It's every day. There's an empi flow of emotion. You're right.
I mean, Philly's got to win a couple of games.
They need a short term victory right here to get
them going back in the right direction, and I believe
that they will, and I think to hold the four
down until Bryce gets back. I love the way you
brought it back to nineteen eighty five with Gene Maka
very untentional. What a great line that is though about beginning, middle,
(36:38):
and end. That's so good. I love that one way.
We're never going back to nineteen eighty five. In the
first sixty five games this year, there were five sacrifice bunts.
That's like one game's worth for Gene Mak. That's right,
Jane thought. If he scored one run, you have to
score two to beat them. That was his gig. Hey,
we always like you giving us some pearls of wisdom
(37:00):
getting Addie here. Before you do that, I'm gonna give
you one from the great Vince Gully. Since I was
remissing in bringing up this line from the Jim Rice
game where he went into the stands at Yankee Stadium.
That was actually an NBC Game of the Week. Okay,
we're really going back in the time machine now then,
and Joe Garagiola doing the game. How great is that? Well?
(37:20):
And they showed a replay of the fan while Jim
Rice and Spike on are on the ground on the
warning track next to the stands. There's the fan reaching
over to grab Jim Rice's hat, and Vince Gully is
only Vince. All he can do said, that's like a
an auto accident and somebody steals your watch. The humanity
(37:43):
of it's so good. I love that. So with that,
give us something to take out of here. Joe and
Spike was one of my old roomies up in Boulder, Coloraud.
I played with Spikey Spike was a lot of fun.
Love Spike, Oh, and can't get enough of that guy.
University of Texas. Yeah, this is this is Stephen Kobe
(38:03):
and back. And I think it was in the eighties. Also,
I read the book Seven Habits of Highly Successful People.
That's when I was really trying to understand myself better.
I was really trying to understand others. Seek first to understand,
then to be understood. That was one of his covenants
of Covey, Stephen Covey, and I've always loved that seek
(38:25):
first to understood, stand and then to be understood. But
beyond that, the one thing that I'm going to say
right now, I would love this because you know those
that that group of people out there that really suffer
from a victim's complex. I really find that unattractive. And
mister Kobe said, I am not a product of my circumstances.
(38:47):
I am a product of my decisions. And I love that.
And yeah, so I read him. I read his Speed
of Trust. That boy his son, his son wrote a
book called The Speed of Trust. They can't. Might have
been Steve Stephen Kobe junior. Right, So I read all
Kobe stuff is and his kids stuff. But I've always
been a big fan. I'm not a product of my circumstances.
I'm a product of my decisions, accountability. I love that
(39:11):
reminds me of Albert Camu. We are a product of
our choices. Here you go, very well said. We'll see
you next time, Joe straight, even if you don't, it's
a good day. It was yesterday over at in Lakeside,
Lakeside where all the stars. It was with Tom Dreeson,
Ray Romano and Jay Rowlands, Brady Brady Anderson when the
(39:33):
Long Drive Ball was a really fun day. A little
windy though, brother, about twenty mile hour winds. Yeah, I
feel bad for you. Let's see you next time. Thank you.
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