April 19, 2023 • 33 mins
Welcome to Unbreakable! A mental health podcast hosted by Fox NFL Insider Jay Glazer. On today’s episode, retired Ohio State Football player Harry Miller shares the courageous story behind his mental health journey with Jay. Harry’s decision to leave football has changed his life. By opening up about his mental health struggles, he’s helping others fight their battles, impacting student-athletes everywhere and changing lives every day.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Unbreakable with Jay Glacier, a mental health podcast
helping you out of the gray and into the blue.
Now here's Jay Glacier.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome back to.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Unbreakable, a mental health podcast with Jay Glazer. And just
reminder for everybody out there, this is my shameless plug
here to reach out and grab my book Unbreakable, How
I turned my depression, anxiety and a motivation and you
can too, because that's what we need to do. In
the book, and it talks about the gray and my
own depression, anxiety, my add the bipolar, everything but everything.
And I also use to try and get me through
(00:37):
the gray. And one of those is to have teammates
and to reach out and find new teammates.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And that's what I'm doing today with.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'd gotten some messages not too long ago some people
from my house states said, man, you really need to
get connected with this one young man out there in
Ohio State.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And it was incredible of the bravery and courage that
I saw.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Are my next guest who is joining me right now
here by dude Tarry Miller from Ohio State University.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
How's everything going with you?
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Very good, just very busy.
Speaker 5 (01:08):
Just a few more weeks left with class and then
the semester's over, so of course this is when all
the projects are getting into netty gritty long hours and
finals and whatnot.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
So I'm very good, just very busy, you know.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I'm kind of like it was almost like a starstruck
thing for me right here, because I'm like, man, I've
been watching your journey for so long. I've been wanting
to get in touch with you, and here's the first
chance we get to do it again. People say I'm
brave for me coming out and describing it, but I
think what you've done is a completely different level than
a lot of us.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I appreciate that in the middle and it really was.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
It was, and I hope you could could accept that
and realize how brave and courageous it was for you
to do that, and how many of the people you've
probably saved by doing this as well. So with that,
I kind of want to open up for you. I
want you to tell people your story here where.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Man, it just it affected and touched me so much,
and I know it will so many of our listeners.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Well, for me, I am still currently attending the Ohios
at University. I'm a senior studying mechanical eng and I
played football at the Ohio State as well. I played
offensive line, and you know, came in as a as
a highly tittered recruit depending on the service, you know,
one or two rank center in the country. You know,
came in and worked my way into some playing time
(02:14):
my freshman year, sophomore year started, and then going into
my junior year, you know, beginning to talk to agents
about the potential of you know, playing in the NFL,
playing professionally, making lots of money, you know, fame, fortune
and everything that goes with fame and fortune, right, So
lots of talks of that, lots of anticipation, but sort
of you know, going into my junior season, I felt
you know, for lack of a better term, quite awful
(02:35):
and was grappling with you know, depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts.
And it got to a point where you know, I understood,
either you know, I'm I'm not going to survive this
or I'm going to talk about it. And you know,
just as you know what I do and I don't
know what else to do. I called my mom and
I said, you know, this is the deal. You said, Okay,
talk to coach Day and it's the next day. I
talked to coach Day and you know, explained, you know,
(02:57):
when I when I leave the facility, I go home
and have suicidal and you know, sort of gave him
the rundown. And I was just honest with him because
you know, at that point I had nothing to lose.
This is all just sort of you know, hit or
pattering on the way out the door, and you know,
there was no there was no harm done and seeing
if something could come out of it. So, you know,
I told him, and.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
We're real real quick on did you just start having
suicidal thoughts that years?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Is something that you've always struggled with.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
It's something I first started seeing, you know, psychiatrist when
I was eight years old, and that's when I first
you know, voiced to my mother. You know, back then,
I didn't have a concept of a word like suicide.
I would tell my mom, you know, I don't want
to feel this way anymore. You know, such heavy feelings,
you know, and feelings that you can't get out from under.
(03:47):
And so the only rational thing at that point seems
to just stop having those feelings. And there was only
one way I knew to do that and so I
started getting you know, mental health support at a young age,
at eight years old, and you know, over you know,
the next decade, as I would become a young man
and go to Ohio State, I would have you know,
latent period periods and and periods when you know, things
(04:08):
were also very well. But I think, you know, going
to Ohio State and you know, I just I just
saw a recent post of yours talking about you know,
you know, healing the child version of yourself. It's you know,
there's a lot of mental stress fractures, mental micro fractures
that you can get away with if you don't have
to bear a large boat, if you don't have to
be exposed to extreme forces. But once you get to something,
(04:29):
say like playing college football to Ohio State, micro fractures
are going to break under extreme pressure. And I was
under extreme pressure and with unresolved issues that I had
deep throughout my childhood. It sort of came to a
head heading into that junior year, and you know, I
had to and that's it's and that's when I really,
I don't know, went all in with working with sports
psychiatry and sports psychology. And I was a person who
(04:51):
I had an experience, a good experience working with sports psychiatry.
But I remember when you know, they were sort of
advertised to us as resource. I told one of my friends,
I said, you know, I'm not I'm not going to
talk to somebody who's paid to care about me. If
I'm going to kill myself, they're not going to stop me.
And I was a person who had a good experience.
So because of that, you know, I really I really
(05:11):
sympathize and I understand how the perspective to not want
to receive help, and especially like you know, I remember
going in to talk to coach Day It's like, you know,
we've got a season to worry about it. I'm pretty
sure we were just like a week out of our
home opener, like this is a huge waste of time.
It's like, I'll just kill myself, get this out of
the way, and let them worry about the season, because
you know, that's that's what I was conditioned to believe.
(05:32):
And you know, I think, unfortunately, I don't know if
this is only reduced to to sport. I don't know
if this is reduced to being a man. I don't
know if this is just reduced to being a human
in the modern age when we're really worried about productivity,
but with the mentality of the show must go on,
I had, I had no regard for any sort of
self preservation. And you know, I'm just grateful that, you know,
(05:53):
I was saved by a couple moments where I had
a pause, a moment to think, and you know, I
spoke with people well, and eventually that just you know,
continually compounded and added more time intill eventually I was
in a healthier spot. And you know, it can be
in a moment like this where I can reflect on
that as opposed to succumbing to immediate thoughts that are
you know, harmful and detrimental.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
And there's so much unpack here, but you realize if
you do, if you follow through in that suicide, it's
not just the show almost go on. Then the rest
of your those guys are family too. They got to
deal with that and carry that right. And a lot
of people don't see that. And I'm trying to listen,
I'm trying to villainize suicide because it's most too glorified
these days.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
Yeah, oh absolutely, and it's and it's so I described
it as like, you know, the world's most convincing salesman. Yeah,
it is extremely especially like when you're when you're thinking
of it, it's it's extremely romanticized. And you know, of course,
and I don't know in art or literature, there's there's
such a you know, I think of like all the
World War there's like a lot of World War One
(06:52):
poets who know, there's one that says, you know, they'll
say it's a coora mescropatrimore, it is sweet and proper
to die for one's country. And I think it was
Zra Pound, But it's somebody just talking about how there's nothing,
there's nothing glorious about you know, dying. It's it's blood
dripping out of your mouth, it's foam and a bloated
face and bodies and it's a pretty wretched process. And
(07:14):
you know, it's of course something that everybody has to
go through. But I think I agree it is sort
of something that I think anything that sort of happens
behind the scenes, which I think, you know, mental health
and depression, suicide is something that sort of occurs behind
the curtain. It becomes glamorized because we don't see it,
and that's sort of been you know a mession of
mind where I was talking at an event I think
just a week ago, and you know, we were having
(07:36):
a panel underneath these on a big stage, underneath these
bright lights. And you take anything out to scrutinize it
underneath the bright lights, you sort it sort of loses
a lot of its luster. It stops becoming this really big,
mystifying thing, and you can grapple with it much easier.
And I hope that's a process that you know, in
pocket culture continues to be done.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I think that, you know, like I tell this to
a lot of our comment that's a lot of people nowadays. Look,
a lot of us think our lives suck way more
than we ever did because of social media. Right, we're
comparing ourselves to everybody else's.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Filter fraction of one second of one day, and like, well,
how come I'm not at that event? Why am I
not the successful?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Why am I are my dreams aren't come true? How
come I don't have that meal right? Or or we
just feel so left out, or we see so much
shit on Twitter. At the same time, when someone kills themselves,
all you're saying is, oh my gosh, it's outbouring love
so when your problems feel so intense, you go, well, shit,
Johnny just killed himself. Everybody's as well, right, I might
as well doing the same thing, for sure, to.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
People like us to stop that narrative.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
For sure.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
And that's of course, you know, it's I don't know,
it's like, sure, you can get I don't know, as
much applause as you want, but it's a plus happening
in another room, like you've already left. There's you are
not you anymore, You're something else. You've you've reduced yourself
to something else, and you're not You're not there to
hear it. And you know, I understand, And that was
never really you know, fortunately for me, that was never
a pro on my pros and cons list of you know,
(08:59):
whatever amount of glory or recognition. But I think that
is something that is extremely tempting and glamorized. And I've
talked with a lot of parents who you know, you've
got there's a lot of young there's it's it's it's
endemic amongst young kids.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
And I think.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
Especially because there's a lot of kids deprived of attention,
and when you only see attention tributed to a child
doing you know, a bad action or god forbid suicide.
It's really easy as a young person, as a child,
to extrapolate that and think, you know, the only way
I can be deserving of any verbal, outspoken love is
to do something as drastic escimmits suicide. Unfortunately, which which
(09:36):
is something you know, I hope as parents communicate more
as is not the case.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
When you went and talked to coach Day about it.
You have stepped away from the team, right, And when
did you go to a facility? Did you just step
away and continue your mental health journey? What what had
happened there?
Speaker 5 (09:51):
Yeah, So I spoke with coach Day and we said,
you know, if you're if you're feeling this way, then
you know, perhaps you should take the day off. And
I said, you know, Coach Day, I've been feeling this
way for a long time time. The only difference is
now that you know about it. And so you know,
even after meeting with him, I practiced that day. Wow,
I had to practice the next day and I was
just mentally out of it, right, And it was something
where I could go through the motions, but you know,
(10:11):
to go through the motions and a sport like football
is really dangerous yeah, not to get hurt easy and
not let alone you know, if you if you miss
an assignment. But so that's when I sort of stepped away,
worked with sports psychology. But even then, sort of the
you know, we were operating under the assumption that you know,
this is a detour and this is something that's going
to be course corrected and eventually I'm going to be
back playing football. And we you know, the timetable even
(10:33):
looks like, you know, we're gonna get this fix in
two weeks and you'll be back playing football, and you know,
weeks pass, and this was a the most life threatening
injury there is, right, you know, So I worked with
I worked with sports psychology diligently and psychiatry over the
next few weeks. And I played a couple of games
that season, you know, between moments of you know, self
harm and suicide attempts, and played two games. Unfortunately, you know,
(10:57):
I tore my PCL completely, and you know, it was
actually really a godsend to be able to experience a
season ending physical injury because then it gave me the
excuse and because there were a lot of people speculating
about my health that fall, you know, making you know,
rumors or speculations about you know, vaccination or about you know,
(11:18):
bad conduct outside of football. So a lot of people
trying to speculate, you know, why isn't he playing? And
you know, fortunately this was sort of a you know,
it was it was a it was a card that
just covered everything and said he no, no, his knees
torn in half, so he can't play for the rest
of the season, which was actually tremendously useful because then
and I think, you know, I don't think I wanted
to admit at the time, but it gave me the
physical excuse to be with drawing and to fix myself mentally.
(11:41):
And so I did that process, and it was a
tear of my PCL and so that began to recover.
I healed that and then continued to heal mentally, and
then you know, come the next year, So that was
twenty twenty one, Come twenty twenty two, January February. You know,
it's it's becoming obvious that playing football is perhaps not
(12:02):
sustainable for me and that I should have met through
retire and so we began that process and in January
or February, I believe early on, but you know, there's
paperwork to go through. So even then, you know, I
had the paperwork going through to medical retire, but I
was still I was still working out with the team.
I had been voted to be like a unit leader
for you know, a group of you know, six to
seven guys, so you know, we were doing you know,
(12:23):
matturals and off season workouts. And I knew the whole
time that you know, I wasn't going to be playing
the following season, but I had been voted by my
peers to lead them. So I said, I'm going to
see this through. And the off season training ended, springball came,
and you know, there was no reason for me to
be taking up a spot wasting time. And you know,
I wasn't even going to publicly announce that, you know,
(12:44):
I was met through retiring. You know, I just didn't.
I didn't want to to have this attention ground. I
didn't want to make a spectacle of this thing. I
wanted to be you know, gracious of people's you know
time and space and just see myself out the door.
But again, there was a lot of people that springs
speculating because you know, and fairly like I sort of
disappear from the starting lineup. And that's when you know,
(13:05):
I released a letter, you know, stating that I was
medically retiring and stating why, and you know, thus started,
you know, that was sort of set a precedent of
me being able to advocate for mental health. And you know,
I've had a long experience with it. I've had a
severe experience with it, unfortunately, you know, and I think
it's tragic where I'm really grateful that, you know, I'm
(13:27):
the person where all this shit hit the fan, because unfortunately,
like I think, if this was you know, somebody at
say no to Power five school and they had the
exact same symptoms, this would be easily discredited as whatever.
And you know, I'm happy. I'm just I'm very grateful
that you know, I've done once, and I'm grateful that
I played football well because it legitimized the reality that
(13:48):
you know, yes, I mean i've even I've done all
of these things, but it doesn't matter, None of it matters.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
This is real and this happens. And so you know,
I'm just really grateful.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
High profile player, high profile program, which which ends up
giving it the attention that.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
It deserves right right, which which I'm very grateful for
a couple of things here.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I like to describe.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
So you know, I wrote my book so I can
give people the words to describe it, right, not just
say mental health like weir all saying, Oh, I have
mental health issues. So I'm trying to describe it so
people go, oh shit, I have that too. I feel
that also.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
So for me, the way I describe it is and
am I I'm sure like you.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Every day, every day is hard for me to get
out of bed, and I wake up every single morning
feeling like fucking sky is falling.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
It's gray.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
I feel it on bad days, and my joints on
the left side of my gut, behind my rib cage.
I feel like everybody wants bad from me, like the
universe hates me, and I know the universe doesn't, like
the universe is on our side.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
What does it feel like for you? If you could
describe it?
Speaker 5 (14:54):
I think for me a lot of times are the
spelling it's terribly unworthy. And even for me when when
I wanted to I wanted to kill myself, it was
I still maintained a real reverence, a real piety for
the universe, for the creator. What have you and I
sort of viewed it as I was just in the
(15:16):
way I was, I was taking up space, and it's
sort of like it felt like an early morning when
you get up and the world is still and nothing's
happened yet, Like there's this just this serene body of
water that doesn't have a single ripple on it, and I.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Felt like I was just just.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Wading through it and making such a mess of everything.
And it was something where I would have I would
have held my breath forever just to keep that moment perfect,
just to keep you know, everything serene. But for me,
I just felt I felt gargaged, and I felt like
Godzilla wandering through a city and just doing everything so
terribly wrong, whether it be you know, your relationships or
(15:52):
what have you, and it just makes you feel quite awful.
And you know, I never felt I was never angry,
but I always just felt I felt tremendously guilty. And
of course it's it's a positive feedback loop where I
don't know, you feel awful, so then it feels like
you're doing awful, which makes you feel more awful, and
the only evidence you can find confirms you know your
(16:13):
worst thoughts of yourself. I don't know, I just became
It's almost And what's so difficult with suicide is that
you know, you you caricaterize this, you know, villain version
of yourself, and yet that version is the most representative
form of you. And you know, I remember as I
got to stand it, but I began to wonder, you know,
would this even be suicide? Because I don't even feel
(16:35):
like I'd be killing myself anymore and be killing somebody else.
I'd be killing something else that is not me. And
of course the conundrum of suicide is that it's like
being chased, you know, by a person who wants to
kill you. But if you kill that person, then you'll
also die. So the only way you can get out
of this is to love that person so convincingly that
they don't want to kill you anymore, which is a
(16:57):
real difficult paradox to be placed them, especially when you
feel so unequipped to love, considering your only experience is
feeling unworthy of such a thing.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Right.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
I remember, you know, I'd read as a as a
as a kid. You know, you'd read excerpts of the
Bible that would say, you know, I was always fascinated
by you know, perhaps at the Annunciation when Gabriel, Gabriel
speaks to Mary and he says, you know, be not
afraid or you hear people hear about people cowering at
the feet of God because they're afraid. And I would
always wonder, why, what reason would you have to be
(17:29):
afraid of love? But then as an adult, I totally
get it because I do it.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
All the time.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
And you know, I think we're afraid of fearful things,
but I think we're more afraid of loving things. And
I've sort of chalked the whole experience up to you
know what I call the birthday song phenomenon, where when
you're surrounded by people who love you telling you how
much they love you, it makes you feel squeamish.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
It makes your holy shit, I'm getting right now say it.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I'm having a hard time with it. Yep, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
It feels and I think and a brober concept of life.
It's like, the conversations I fear the most are the
ones where I'm just going to be honest and tell
somebody that I care about them and appreciate them and
love them. And of course those are the conversations we
need the most. But we feel the most unequipped to
give to say, and so sort of you know, my remedy,
through my personal remedy for myself was to love myself
(18:19):
in a way I felt unequipped to do so. And
then of course in my conduct towards others, I've tried
to do the same right where. It's so funny when
somebody comes up to you and they explain how their
sky is falling, you just want to tell them that, like,
I love you so much, it's going to be okay,
Like no matter what, it's going to be okay. And
then they say, you know, but what about your skin?
It's like, oh no, my sky is totally falling. There's
no way anybody can do anything about this. And I
(18:41):
don't you know, I don't know if that's I don't
know if that's prit I don't know if that's just
you know, a limited human perspective. But it's something that
I've tried to have more Grayson on the day to day.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Yeah, And do the guilt we have is that you know,
that little kid just feeling like with this bad person,
like you're saying in the way, and that's something that
I've finally begun to heal this year. I'm gonna tell
you a little thing that maybe you could do for yourself,
and going to try not to cry. Why I say it,
And fuck, I'm gonna try not to make you cry.
Every time I tell somebody in the NFL the story.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
They start crying. Yeah, said I told this to the Rock.
He started crying.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
But I went to Thailand go meet with these monks, right,
So I go train muy Thai in the jungle last
year for thirty five nuts.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I was in a bad place when I wrote this book.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
I stopped all my treatment for a while because I
wanted to be as raw as I could.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And that was not a good fucking idea. Yeah, that
says him. It's dangerous for me and others. Not good.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
So it took me a while to really get out
of this and I had to go do extreme. I know,
we all can go to Thailand for thirty five days,
and thank god I was able to. I went to
a place out there that works on mind, body, spirit
and kind of cleans you up from inflammation, works in
your body, like I said, it really works on your
soul and your spirit.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
And I meet with these monks and they're like your
therapists and coaches.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
And I was just talking so self loathing about myself
and they said, hey, listen this we want you to
do three days. We want you to sit in your pain.
And I said, I sent my pain every day. They said, no,
you experience your pain like we want you to sit.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
In and feeling it. And they said, when you're doing it,
what did you call yourself as a little kid growing
up with a jay? I said no, Jason.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
I said, okay, when you are sitting there like we
want you to sit and what hurts you the most
is cause you the most pain. Want you sit in
that pain and hold little Jason's hand, and we want
you to visualize that and put yourn around him and
show him some compassion because he hasn't had enough. And man,
(20:43):
I didn't understand what they were talking about for the
first two and then I finally did it started healing him.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
It was liberating.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
And you talked about that as a little kid, But
I think even now we need to go back and
heal that little kid in you.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Right and me that that.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Went through all that shit got us to view things
about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
It just wasn't true.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
It's so funny say, because I also say, you know,
I like to sit in my pin, and yet sometimes
there is such a pride attached to our feelings. And
you know, I think about, you know, when if water
were to run over my skin, I would say, you know,
I feel the current, or if the air blows, I
would say I feel the wind. But I wouldn't say,
you know, I am the wind, I am the water.
(21:25):
And yet when I feel sad, I say I am sad,
and when I feel angry, I say I am angry.
And I take such ownership of passing sentiments, right. And
you know I've I've really tried to to not do that,
and I've tried to sit in my pan, but never
with you know, visualizing, you know, a younger version of myself, right,
(21:45):
which I think. And you use the word compassion, which
I think is such a beautiful word because I remember
another I was always fascinated as a child with the
terminology of, you know, the passion of Christ. I thought
passion is such a peculiar word to use with that
because it sounds so painful, and for me, I always
viewed passion as a very positive thing of you know,
(22:06):
the doing anything you doing something you love, right, And
I looked it up and it said that passion came
from the Latin root patty, which means suffering and comb
meaning with And so compassion doesn't mean to share and
enjoy or pleasure, means to share and pain and suffering.
And I think it's such a beautiful thing. And especially
(22:27):
if I think compassion is the highest form of love,
then love is nothing more than being willing to hurt
with somebody. And so for me to love myself, I
just need to be able to sit with myself and
feel these things and hurt with myself and be okay
with it and not try to, I don't know, not
try to blame people, not try to be angry at people,
especially in the person you know I blame and I
get angry with the most of myself, right, which is
(22:49):
such an unfortunate circumstance.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Right, that's where you get to start putting you arm
around little heart, right and hold his hand because you
deserve it, man, right.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And it really did change me. It helped me so much,
and it's still something I do.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I still, Yeah, Well lay myself down at night and
I'll say, Okay, I'm gonna take this time and sometimes five.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Minutes, sometimes an hour, but all it takes me.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Sometimes the ad takes a long time to come down,
so I could.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Get there too.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
But once I get there, man it like my girl noticed,
it's a game changer for me for that week.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, which is good for me. A good week is terrific. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Do you now realize, like what a blessing you are
like to be able to use your pain to help others?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Do theirs be able to feel that?
Speaker 5 (23:33):
I try in moments yes, and then in moments no.
And that's the hardest thing about about pain And sort
of like I and it's sort of just this sensation
where brings you more and more into yourself, you know,
I view it as like I don't know, I'm in
this box and the box is shaking, and I just
I shrink smaller, smaller and smaller. And yet the only
way to make something of your pain is to remove
(23:55):
yourself from it. There's a and it's and it's so
difficult because again, pain calls you so immensely present, and
to be able to have a sentiment like gratitude requires
a real omniscience. It requires you not to be so
so overwhelmingly present and requires a real peace and grace.
And yet you know, pain is the thing that makes
it the hardest thing to do, and so it's hard then,
(24:17):
you know, it almost feels like if you're making a
profession of pain, and as you've talked about, like you know,
writing your book, when to have to you know, cozy
up with things that are quite uncomfortable to make real
friends with, with some pretty unagreeable monsters. You know, I've
I've felt like when I when I'm creative, it sort
of feels like playing with like a dog with rabies,
where it's like having a dog sled where every dog
(24:38):
has rabies and it's like they pour really hard and
they're really useful and they gave me where I need
to go, but you better be careful playing with them.
And so I think, you know, in the in the
effort of helping others, it is so extremely rewarding, right,
And it's yes, it's it's so it's the best thing
you can do.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Are are you able to feel it now? Yes? Yeah? Good,
good good. That's what I want to do.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
That's what to make sure and that's what people say, Well,
you have this, you know, you make money off.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Your book is.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Fucking damn right, I do. It's my suffering, right, there's
no shit like we went through it. You know, it's
your suffering. We get to now do what we want
and helping others for me is the you know, being
the service is huge for me.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
But I've always used being of service to offset the
roommates in my head tell me how shitty it was, right,
that's one thing.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Well, maybe because I always felt like it was a
horrible person. I got this pain, so I must be
a terrible person. It's my punishment. And now it's like
I used to, well, let me do these great things
and being of service so it could offset what got
me to think I was so bad. But now this
being of service, now when I hear people say, God,
you've saved my life. You've changed my life for You've
(25:44):
got me to connect with my son or daughter, and
it's been It definitely gets me to see blue and
lists me up. Are you able to tell me about
some of these messages you now get from people and
how it makes.
Speaker 5 (25:55):
You feel makes me feel the same way. And I've
received good he deserves it the messages.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
But it's fucking cool. It is very cool. And I'm
very grateful.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
I just think the thing I'm grateful for most was,
you know, there was there was a thing, or there
was a person I was looking for when I was
going through something right. And I remember in the spring
before I met we retired, there was a student athlete
committing suicide every other week, and I would I were
talking to my sports psychologist, and I felt like somebody
(26:27):
was pulling a joke on us. It felt so absurd,
and it felt and it felt like, you know, surely
somebody has to say something. And I think that's sort
of the just somebody has to be saying just somebody
has to say something. And I think everybody's afraid of
just being a somebody. But it's so easy to be
a somebody. Anybody can be just somebody. Fortunately I was
(26:47):
a person who could be just as somebody. And you know,
I had no glorious intentions. And of course, when I
was feeling the things I was feeling so drastically and
so awfully, you know, there was no Unfortunately, I viewed
it as as almost a martyrdom. When I was depressed
and I was thinking, you know, the only way I
can get resources, the only way I can get visibility
(27:09):
to this issue is to sacrifice myself. And of course,
you know, perhaps I would have if I wasn't so
busy between engineering and football. Perhaps I would have if
I you know, I don't know if like while you're
reading your book, like you know, I like to write,
and I just I love to edit and I can't
stop editing. So it's like I couldn't even conceive of
writing a suicide note because I wouldn't be able to
come up with the final draft. I would be thinking,
(27:31):
you know, I can't use this word. I've I have
to put a paragraph here, and do you think like
that right? And that's sort of funny because that life
becomes this beautiful daily suicide note where you say, you know,
this is me, this is what I'm doing, this is
what I believe, and you know, hopefully there comes a
day where you know, death sneaks up on you and
it's and it's not when you're sad, it's when you're
(27:53):
really grateful, when you're really happy, and then when it's
all said and done, you've you've put together a living
suicide note that is nothing more than a statement of
the things that you cared about the people that you helped,
and that's something that you know, I'm grateful that I
had the pause and the reprieve to get from moment
to moment until eventually I could say, you know, I'm
I'm grateful that I'm here. I bought myself time, and
(28:15):
I'm grateful that I did right. And it just lets
you you know, you don't have to The bright side
is if you if you don't like the suicide note
you write today, you get up tomorrow and you're.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Allowed to write it again.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
And whereas if you if you commit to it, if
you commit to suicide, that's final addition.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
There are no annotations. That's it.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
And God, I would hate if somebody would find write
a typo in your suicide note, because then it's just
what a bummer that is. So it's a great thing
to be able to live and to be able to
have a constant, editing power over your life.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I love what you said before. Man, it gave me chills.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
But you know, everybody could be a somebody, right, and
that's one of the most powerful things anybody's ever said
on the podcast.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, that was wow, man, that was incredible.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Before I let you go and you might have already
said this or not, but I ask all my guests
give me your unbreakable moment, like, yeah, you know, the
moment that should have broken you didn't.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
You came through the other side of that tunnel. As
a result, you'll be better and stronger for the rest
of your life.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
That's a great question, because I think there are a
lot of moments that are that hurt, but are not unbreakable,
and I think you need to be broken.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
You know, I'm a senior in engineering, and you know,
I was. I was.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
I was reading an email that had been shared with
me about this podcast, and and I identified. You know,
in engineering, there's something called the stress strain curve. And
stress is a force applied over an area. You know,
you can view it as pressing your hand on to
something right, you apply a pressure that's a stress strain.
Is the physical dislocations, the deformation of something right, and
(29:46):
it's it's it's the tearing of molecular bonds, it's the
restructuring of the material. And in this stress and strain curve,
there's an elastic region and there's a plastic region. In
the elastic region, if you apply a certain stress and
you remove the stress. It's going to go back to the.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Way it was before. Nothing changes.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
And there's the plastic region, or when you apply a
stress beyond a yield point, which is what delineates between
elastic and plastic, this yield strength. Once you apply a
stress greater than that, you now have permanent deformation. You
now have permanent change. So say that that unit is
yield strength, it is ten passals, two, three, four, five.
That might be painful, but that's not going to change you.
(30:24):
Six seven, eight nine. It's getting close, but it's not
going to change you. Then comes eleven passals, and the
atomic structure of you is changing permanently, and it hurts
so bad. That's the only way that you're going to
get permanent deformation. That's the only way you're going to
be able to change. And when you apply a plastic
change to a metal, let's say steal, that metal is
(30:44):
now going to be harder, it's going to be stronger
and have increased strength. And it's the only way. That's
how you machine, that's how you make cars, that's how
you make buildings, is you have to machine these metals
into these rigid structures. Right, and so for me, I
think my unbreakable moment, my moment where I have to
pass my yield strength and became something different.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
You know.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
I had a moment of self harm where I was
I was taking a box cutter to my neck and
I was bleeding, and for a moment, I thought I
had cut too deeply, and I thought, you know, I
had really booked my ticket, like this is it.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
And for a moment I was really terrified, like little
kid terrified.
Speaker 5 (31:17):
I was like, oh, like I just I just broke
Dad's vase, like this is this is it? You know,
sort of held my breath for a moment. Nothing happened,
And that night I went to sleep, and my entire
life I had viewed as this long table with all
the people I loved sitting there around me. Really beautiful moment,
right And in this dream, I was there. I was
(31:38):
in heaven and it was a long table and all
the people I loved were there, but there were empty
seats all around me. Right next to me, and all
the people who had ever hurt me in my life
came up to me and we apologized to each other
about all the things we did not know in our life.
And they were my first guests at the table and
I woke up. I had this experience wow, and I
(31:59):
was just very great, and I was filled with, you know,
this overcoming feeling of forgiveness for myself and for others.
You know, from that point, when things were really bad,
I would just think of that moment. I would think,
you know, there is a place like this, somewhere where
everything is forgiven. I forgive everybody, I forgive myself. It's okay,
(32:19):
and you know, eventually it's however many months, how many
every years removed. You know, I had, I had surpassed
my yield strength. I had been plastically deformed to become
stronger and harder than I was. And I needed to
be right because if I wasn't, then I wouldn't have
made it. But I took it. You know, you took
your you took your prescription of punishment, and it makes
you something better. And so for me, that was my
(32:39):
unbreakable moment.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Man.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
That is well, first of all, that's the smartest way
anybody's ever described and unbreakable moment inadequate metal far. But
it's also one of the deepest things I've I've heard. Man,
I appreciate you know, I'm I'm so glad you didn't
go deeper on that box cutter. It's too man, there's
so many other people you're gonna help. But now you
and I get to walk this walk together, move forward,
(33:02):
and I'm proud of that, dude. I'm proud to have
you as a teammate of mind.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Dude.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
Thank you so much for this opportunity and for putting
the Soul podcast and all of these things together.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Absolutely, man, and again we're man, We'll just start. You know,
I just talked to the NFL recently and said, you know,
what else can we do? I said, Man, you guys
are probably ten years behind of the lot where you
got to be, you know, because.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
We're not even scratching the surface.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
But because we have somebody's like you, were able to
scratch the surface a lot better and open up conversations.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
But we don't really know where to.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Go yet, right, But we got to get us there
because that's we all deserve, right man, Harry, I really
appreciate you, brother. I'm going to send you my phone
number man on on uh, I'll damn it to you.
And hey, you got a teammate to walk this walk
with you.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
I really appreciate that yes, thank you up too,
This is Unbreakable with Jay Glacier, a mental health podcast
helping you out of the gray and into the blue.
Now here's Jay Glacier.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome back to.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Unbreakable, a mental health podcast with Jay Glazer. And just
reminder for everybody out there, this is my shameless plug
here to reach out and grab my book Unbreakable, How
I turned my depression, anxiety and a motivation and you
can too, because that's what we need to do. In
the book, and it talks about the gray and my
own depression, anxiety, my add the bipolar, everything but everything.
And I also use to try and get me through
(00:37):
the gray. And one of those is to have teammates
and to reach out and find new teammates.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And that's what I'm doing today with.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'd gotten some messages not too long ago some people
from my house states said, man, you really need to
get connected with this one young man out there in
Ohio State.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And it was incredible of the bravery and courage that
I saw.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Are my next guest who is joining me right now
here by dude Tarry Miller from Ohio State University.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
How's everything going with you?
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Very good, just very busy.
Speaker 5 (01:08):
Just a few more weeks left with class and then
the semester's over, so of course this is when all
the projects are getting into netty gritty long hours and
finals and whatnot.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
So I'm very good, just very busy, you know.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I'm kind of like it was almost like a starstruck
thing for me right here, because I'm like, man, I've
been watching your journey for so long. I've been wanting
to get in touch with you, and here's the first
chance we get to do it again. People say I'm
brave for me coming out and describing it, but I
think what you've done is a completely different level than
a lot of us.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I appreciate that in the middle and it really was.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
It was, and I hope you could could accept that
and realize how brave and courageous it was for you
to do that, and how many of the people you've
probably saved by doing this as well. So with that,
I kind of want to open up for you. I
want you to tell people your story here where.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Man, it just it affected and touched me so much,
and I know it will so many of our listeners.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Well, for me, I am still currently attending the Ohios
at University. I'm a senior studying mechanical eng and I
played football at the Ohio State as well. I played
offensive line, and you know, came in as a as
a highly tittered recruit depending on the service, you know,
one or two rank center in the country. You know,
came in and worked my way into some playing time
(02:14):
my freshman year, sophomore year started, and then going into
my junior year, you know, beginning to talk to agents
about the potential of you know, playing in the NFL,
playing professionally, making lots of money, you know, fame, fortune
and everything that goes with fame and fortune, right, So
lots of talks of that, lots of anticipation, but sort
of you know, going into my junior season, I felt
you know, for lack of a better term, quite awful
(02:35):
and was grappling with you know, depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts.
And it got to a point where you know, I understood,
either you know, I'm I'm not going to survive this
or I'm going to talk about it. And you know,
just as you know what I do and I don't
know what else to do. I called my mom and
I said, you know, this is the deal. You said, Okay,
talk to coach Day and it's the next day. I
talked to coach Day and you know, explained, you know,
(02:57):
when I when I leave the facility, I go home
and have suicidal and you know, sort of gave him
the rundown. And I was just honest with him because
you know, at that point I had nothing to lose.
This is all just sort of you know, hit or
pattering on the way out the door, and you know,
there was no there was no harm done and seeing
if something could come out of it. So, you know,
I told him, and.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
We're real real quick on did you just start having
suicidal thoughts that years?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Is something that you've always struggled with.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
It's something I first started seeing, you know, psychiatrist when
I was eight years old, and that's when I first
you know, voiced to my mother. You know, back then,
I didn't have a concept of a word like suicide.
I would tell my mom, you know, I don't want
to feel this way anymore. You know, such heavy feelings,
you know, and feelings that you can't get out from under.
(03:47):
And so the only rational thing at that point seems
to just stop having those feelings. And there was only
one way I knew to do that and so I
started getting you know, mental health support at a young age,
at eight years old, and you know, over you know,
the next decade, as I would become a young man
and go to Ohio State, I would have you know,
latent period periods and and periods when you know, things
(04:08):
were also very well. But I think, you know, going
to Ohio State and you know, I just I just
saw a recent post of yours talking about you know,
you know, healing the child version of yourself. It's you know,
there's a lot of mental stress fractures, mental micro fractures
that you can get away with if you don't have
to bear a large boat, if you don't have to
be exposed to extreme forces. But once you get to something,
(04:29):
say like playing college football to Ohio State, micro fractures
are going to break under extreme pressure. And I was
under extreme pressure and with unresolved issues that I had
deep throughout my childhood. It sort of came to a
head heading into that junior year, and you know, I
had to and that's it's and that's when I really,
I don't know, went all in with working with sports
psychiatry and sports psychology. And I was a person who
(04:51):
I had an experience, a good experience working with sports psychiatry.
But I remember when you know, they were sort of
advertised to us as resource. I told one of my friends,
I said, you know, I'm not I'm not going to
talk to somebody who's paid to care about me. If
I'm going to kill myself, they're not going to stop me.
And I was a person who had a good experience.
So because of that, you know, I really I really
(05:11):
sympathize and I understand how the perspective to not want
to receive help, and especially like you know, I remember
going in to talk to coach Day It's like, you know,
we've got a season to worry about it. I'm pretty
sure we were just like a week out of our
home opener, like this is a huge waste of time.
It's like, I'll just kill myself, get this out of
the way, and let them worry about the season, because
you know, that's that's what I was conditioned to believe.
(05:32):
And you know, I think, unfortunately, I don't know if
this is only reduced to to sport. I don't know
if this is reduced to being a man. I don't
know if this is just reduced to being a human
in the modern age when we're really worried about productivity,
but with the mentality of the show must go on,
I had, I had no regard for any sort of
self preservation. And you know, I'm just grateful that, you know,
(05:53):
I was saved by a couple moments where I had
a pause, a moment to think, and you know, I
spoke with people well, and eventually that just you know,
continually compounded and added more time intill eventually I was
in a healthier spot. And you know, it can be
in a moment like this where I can reflect on
that as opposed to succumbing to immediate thoughts that are
you know, harmful and detrimental.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
And there's so much unpack here, but you realize if
you do, if you follow through in that suicide, it's
not just the show almost go on. Then the rest
of your those guys are family too. They got to
deal with that and carry that right. And a lot
of people don't see that. And I'm trying to listen,
I'm trying to villainize suicide because it's most too glorified
these days.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
Yeah, oh absolutely, and it's and it's so I described
it as like, you know, the world's most convincing salesman. Yeah,
it is extremely especially like when you're when you're thinking
of it, it's it's extremely romanticized. And you know, of course,
and I don't know in art or literature, there's there's
such a you know, I think of like all the
World War there's like a lot of World War One
(06:52):
poets who know, there's one that says, you know, they'll
say it's a coora mescropatrimore, it is sweet and proper
to die for one's country. And I think it was
Zra Pound, But it's somebody just talking about how there's nothing,
there's nothing glorious about you know, dying. It's it's blood
dripping out of your mouth, it's foam and a bloated
face and bodies and it's a pretty wretched process. And
(07:14):
you know, it's of course something that everybody has to
go through. But I think I agree it is sort
of something that I think anything that sort of happens
behind the scenes, which I think, you know, mental health
and depression, suicide is something that sort of occurs behind
the curtain. It becomes glamorized because we don't see it,
and that's sort of been you know a mession of
mind where I was talking at an event I think
just a week ago, and you know, we were having
(07:36):
a panel underneath these on a big stage, underneath these
bright lights. And you take anything out to scrutinize it
underneath the bright lights, you sort it sort of loses
a lot of its luster. It stops becoming this really big,
mystifying thing, and you can grapple with it much easier.
And I hope that's a process that you know, in
pocket culture continues to be done.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I think that, you know, like I tell this to
a lot of our comment that's a lot of people nowadays. Look,
a lot of us think our lives suck way more
than we ever did because of social media. Right, we're
comparing ourselves to everybody else's.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Filter fraction of one second of one day, and like, well,
how come I'm not at that event? Why am I
not the successful?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Why am I are my dreams aren't come true? How
come I don't have that meal right? Or or we
just feel so left out, or we see so much
shit on Twitter. At the same time, when someone kills themselves,
all you're saying is, oh my gosh, it's outbouring love
so when your problems feel so intense, you go, well, shit,
Johnny just killed himself. Everybody's as well, right, I might
as well doing the same thing, for sure, to.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
People like us to stop that narrative.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
For sure.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
And that's of course, you know, it's I don't know,
it's like, sure, you can get I don't know, as
much applause as you want, but it's a plus happening
in another room, like you've already left. There's you are
not you anymore, You're something else. You've you've reduced yourself
to something else, and you're not You're not there to
hear it. And you know, I understand, And that was
never really you know, fortunately for me, that was never
a pro on my pros and cons list of you know,
(08:59):
whatever amount of glory or recognition. But I think that
is something that is extremely tempting and glamorized. And I've
talked with a lot of parents who you know, you've
got there's a lot of young there's it's it's it's
endemic amongst young kids.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
And I think.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
Especially because there's a lot of kids deprived of attention,
and when you only see attention tributed to a child
doing you know, a bad action or god forbid suicide.
It's really easy as a young person, as a child,
to extrapolate that and think, you know, the only way
I can be deserving of any verbal, outspoken love is
to do something as drastic escimmits suicide. Unfortunately, which which
(09:36):
is something you know, I hope as parents communicate more
as is not the case.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
When you went and talked to coach Day about it.
You have stepped away from the team, right, And when
did you go to a facility? Did you just step
away and continue your mental health journey? What what had
happened there?
Speaker 5 (09:51):
Yeah, So I spoke with coach Day and we said,
you know, if you're if you're feeling this way, then
you know, perhaps you should take the day off. And
I said, you know, Coach Day, I've been feeling this
way for a long time time. The only difference is
now that you know about it. And so you know,
even after meeting with him, I practiced that day. Wow,
I had to practice the next day and I was
just mentally out of it, right, And it was something
where I could go through the motions, but you know,
(10:11):
to go through the motions and a sport like football
is really dangerous yeah, not to get hurt easy and
not let alone you know, if you if you miss
an assignment. But so that's when I sort of stepped away,
worked with sports psychology. But even then, sort of the
you know, we were operating under the assumption that you know,
this is a detour and this is something that's going
to be course corrected and eventually I'm going to be
back playing football. And we you know, the timetable even
(10:33):
looks like, you know, we're gonna get this fix in
two weeks and you'll be back playing football, and you know,
weeks pass, and this was a the most life threatening
injury there is, right, you know, So I worked with
I worked with sports psychology diligently and psychiatry over the
next few weeks. And I played a couple of games
that season, you know, between moments of you know, self
harm and suicide attempts, and played two games. Unfortunately, you know,
(10:57):
I tore my PCL completely, and you know, it was
actually really a godsend to be able to experience a
season ending physical injury because then it gave me the
excuse and because there were a lot of people speculating
about my health that fall, you know, making you know,
rumors or speculations about you know, vaccination or about you know,
(11:18):
bad conduct outside of football. So a lot of people
trying to speculate, you know, why isn't he playing? And
you know, fortunately this was sort of a you know,
it was it was a it was a card that
just covered everything and said he no, no, his knees
torn in half, so he can't play for the rest
of the season, which was actually tremendously useful because then
and I think, you know, I don't think I wanted
to admit at the time, but it gave me the
physical excuse to be with drawing and to fix myself mentally.
(11:41):
And so I did that process, and it was a
tear of my PCL and so that began to recover.
I healed that and then continued to heal mentally, and
then you know, come the next year, So that was
twenty twenty one, Come twenty twenty two, January February. You know,
it's it's becoming obvious that playing football is perhaps not
(12:02):
sustainable for me and that I should have met through
retire and so we began that process and in January
or February, I believe early on, but you know, there's
paperwork to go through. So even then, you know, I
had the paperwork going through to medical retire, but I
was still I was still working out with the team.
I had been voted to be like a unit leader
for you know, a group of you know, six to
seven guys, so you know, we were doing you know,
(12:23):
matturals and off season workouts. And I knew the whole
time that you know, I wasn't going to be playing
the following season, but I had been voted by my
peers to lead them. So I said, I'm going to
see this through. And the off season training ended, springball came,
and you know, there was no reason for me to
be taking up a spot wasting time. And you know,
I wasn't even going to publicly announce that, you know,
(12:44):
I was met through retiring. You know, I just didn't.
I didn't want to to have this attention ground. I
didn't want to make a spectacle of this thing. I
wanted to be you know, gracious of people's you know
time and space and just see myself out the door.
But again, there was a lot of people that springs
speculating because you know, and fairly like I sort of
disappear from the starting lineup. And that's when you know,
(13:05):
I released a letter, you know, stating that I was
medically retiring and stating why, and you know, thus started,
you know, that was sort of set a precedent of
me being able to advocate for mental health. And you know,
I've had a long experience with it. I've had a
severe experience with it, unfortunately, you know, and I think
it's tragic where I'm really grateful that, you know, I'm
(13:27):
the person where all this shit hit the fan, because unfortunately,
like I think, if this was you know, somebody at
say no to Power five school and they had the
exact same symptoms, this would be easily discredited as whatever.
And you know, I'm happy. I'm just I'm very grateful
that you know, I've done once, and I'm grateful that
I played football well because it legitimized the reality that
(13:48):
you know, yes, I mean i've even I've done all
of these things, but it doesn't matter, None of it matters.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
This is real and this happens. And so you know,
I'm just really grateful.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
High profile player, high profile program, which which ends up
giving it the attention that.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
It deserves right right, which which I'm very grateful for
a couple of things here.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I like to describe.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
So you know, I wrote my book so I can
give people the words to describe it, right, not just
say mental health like weir all saying, Oh, I have
mental health issues. So I'm trying to describe it so
people go, oh shit, I have that too. I feel
that also.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
So for me, the way I describe it is and
am I I'm sure like you.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Every day, every day is hard for me to get
out of bed, and I wake up every single morning
feeling like fucking sky is falling.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
It's gray.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
I feel it on bad days, and my joints on
the left side of my gut, behind my rib cage.
I feel like everybody wants bad from me, like the
universe hates me, and I know the universe doesn't, like
the universe is on our side.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
What does it feel like for you? If you could
describe it?
Speaker 5 (14:54):
I think for me a lot of times are the
spelling it's terribly unworthy. And even for me when when
I wanted to I wanted to kill myself, it was
I still maintained a real reverence, a real piety for
the universe, for the creator. What have you and I
sort of viewed it as I was just in the
(15:16):
way I was, I was taking up space, and it's
sort of like it felt like an early morning when
you get up and the world is still and nothing's
happened yet, Like there's this just this serene body of
water that doesn't have a single ripple on it, and I.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Felt like I was just just.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Wading through it and making such a mess of everything.
And it was something where I would have I would
have held my breath forever just to keep that moment perfect,
just to keep you know, everything serene. But for me,
I just felt I felt gargaged, and I felt like
Godzilla wandering through a city and just doing everything so
terribly wrong, whether it be you know, your relationships or
(15:52):
what have you, and it just makes you feel quite awful.
And you know, I never felt I was never angry,
but I always just felt I felt tremendously guilty. And
of course it's it's a positive feedback loop where I
don't know, you feel awful, so then it feels like
you're doing awful, which makes you feel more awful, and
the only evidence you can find confirms you know your
(16:13):
worst thoughts of yourself. I don't know, I just became
It's almost And what's so difficult with suicide is that
you know, you you caricaterize this, you know, villain version
of yourself, and yet that version is the most representative
form of you. And you know, I remember as I
got to stand it, but I began to wonder, you know,
would this even be suicide? Because I don't even feel
(16:35):
like I'd be killing myself anymore and be killing somebody else.
I'd be killing something else that is not me. And
of course the conundrum of suicide is that it's like
being chased, you know, by a person who wants to
kill you. But if you kill that person, then you'll
also die. So the only way you can get out
of this is to love that person so convincingly that
they don't want to kill you anymore, which is a
(16:57):
real difficult paradox to be placed them, especially when you
feel so unequipped to love, considering your only experience is
feeling unworthy of such a thing.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Right.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
I remember, you know, I'd read as a as a
as a kid. You know, you'd read excerpts of the
Bible that would say, you know, I was always fascinated
by you know, perhaps at the Annunciation when Gabriel, Gabriel
speaks to Mary and he says, you know, be not
afraid or you hear people hear about people cowering at
the feet of God because they're afraid. And I would
always wonder, why, what reason would you have to be
(17:29):
afraid of love? But then as an adult, I totally
get it because I do it.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
All the time.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
And you know, I think we're afraid of fearful things,
but I think we're more afraid of loving things. And
I've sort of chalked the whole experience up to you
know what I call the birthday song phenomenon, where when
you're surrounded by people who love you telling you how
much they love you, it makes you feel squeamish.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
It makes your holy shit, I'm getting right now say it.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I'm having a hard time with it. Yep, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
It feels and I think and a brober concept of life.
It's like, the conversations I fear the most are the
ones where I'm just going to be honest and tell
somebody that I care about them and appreciate them and
love them. And of course those are the conversations we
need the most. But we feel the most unequipped to
give to say, and so sort of you know, my remedy,
through my personal remedy for myself was to love myself
(18:19):
in a way I felt unequipped to do so. And
then of course in my conduct towards others, I've tried
to do the same right where. It's so funny when
somebody comes up to you and they explain how their
sky is falling, you just want to tell them that, like,
I love you so much, it's going to be okay,
Like no matter what, it's going to be okay. And
then they say, you know, but what about your skin?
It's like, oh no, my sky is totally falling. There's
no way anybody can do anything about this. And I
(18:41):
don't you know, I don't know if that's I don't
know if that's prit I don't know if that's just
you know, a limited human perspective. But it's something that
I've tried to have more Grayson on the day to day.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Yeah, And do the guilt we have is that you know,
that little kid just feeling like with this bad person,
like you're saying in the way, and that's something that
I've finally begun to heal this year. I'm gonna tell
you a little thing that maybe you could do for yourself,
and going to try not to cry. Why I say it,
And fuck, I'm gonna try not to make you cry.
Every time I tell somebody in the NFL the story.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
They start crying. Yeah, said I told this to the Rock.
He started crying.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
But I went to Thailand go meet with these monks, right,
So I go train muy Thai in the jungle last
year for thirty five nuts.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I was in a bad place when I wrote this book.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
I stopped all my treatment for a while because I
wanted to be as raw as I could.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And that was not a good fucking idea. Yeah, that
says him. It's dangerous for me and others. Not good.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
So it took me a while to really get out
of this and I had to go do extreme. I know,
we all can go to Thailand for thirty five days,
and thank god I was able to. I went to
a place out there that works on mind, body, spirit
and kind of cleans you up from inflammation, works in
your body, like I said, it really works on your
soul and your spirit.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
And I meet with these monks and they're like your
therapists and coaches.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
And I was just talking so self loathing about myself
and they said, hey, listen this we want you to
do three days. We want you to sit in your pain.
And I said, I sent my pain every day. They said, no,
you experience your pain like we want you to sit.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
In and feeling it. And they said, when you're doing it,
what did you call yourself as a little kid growing
up with a jay? I said no, Jason.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
I said, okay, when you are sitting there like we
want you to sit and what hurts you the most
is cause you the most pain. Want you sit in
that pain and hold little Jason's hand, and we want
you to visualize that and put yourn around him and
show him some compassion because he hasn't had enough. And man,
(20:43):
I didn't understand what they were talking about for the
first two and then I finally did it started healing him.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
It was liberating.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
And you talked about that as a little kid, But
I think even now we need to go back and
heal that little kid in you.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Right and me that that.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Went through all that shit got us to view things
about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
It just wasn't true.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
It's so funny say, because I also say, you know,
I like to sit in my pin, and yet sometimes
there is such a pride attached to our feelings. And
you know, I think about, you know, when if water
were to run over my skin, I would say, you know,
I feel the current, or if the air blows, I
would say I feel the wind. But I wouldn't say,
you know, I am the wind, I am the water.
(21:25):
And yet when I feel sad, I say I am sad,
and when I feel angry, I say I am angry.
And I take such ownership of passing sentiments, right. And
you know I've I've really tried to to not do that,
and I've tried to sit in my pan, but never
with you know, visualizing, you know, a younger version of myself, right,
(21:45):
which I think. And you use the word compassion, which
I think is such a beautiful word because I remember
another I was always fascinated as a child with the
terminology of, you know, the passion of Christ. I thought
passion is such a peculiar word to use with that
because it sounds so painful, and for me, I always
viewed passion as a very positive thing of you know,
(22:06):
the doing anything you doing something you love, right, And
I looked it up and it said that passion came
from the Latin root patty, which means suffering and comb
meaning with And so compassion doesn't mean to share and
enjoy or pleasure, means to share and pain and suffering.
And I think it's such a beautiful thing. And especially
(22:27):
if I think compassion is the highest form of love,
then love is nothing more than being willing to hurt
with somebody. And so for me to love myself, I
just need to be able to sit with myself and
feel these things and hurt with myself and be okay
with it and not try to, I don't know, not
try to blame people, not try to be angry at people,
especially in the person you know I blame and I
get angry with the most of myself, right, which is
(22:49):
such an unfortunate circumstance.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Right, that's where you get to start putting you arm
around little heart, right and hold his hand because you
deserve it, man, right.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And it really did change me. It helped me so much,
and it's still something I do.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I still, Yeah, Well lay myself down at night and
I'll say, Okay, I'm gonna take this time and sometimes five.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Minutes, sometimes an hour, but all it takes me.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Sometimes the ad takes a long time to come down,
so I could.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Get there too.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
But once I get there, man it like my girl noticed,
it's a game changer for me for that week.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, which is good for me. A good week is terrific. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Do you now realize, like what a blessing you are
like to be able to use your pain to help others?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Do theirs be able to feel that?
Speaker 5 (23:33):
I try in moments yes, and then in moments no.
And that's the hardest thing about about pain And sort
of like I and it's sort of just this sensation
where brings you more and more into yourself, you know,
I view it as like I don't know, I'm in
this box and the box is shaking, and I just
I shrink smaller, smaller and smaller. And yet the only
way to make something of your pain is to remove
(23:55):
yourself from it. There's a and it's and it's so
difficult because again, pain calls you so immensely present, and
to be able to have a sentiment like gratitude requires
a real omniscience. It requires you not to be so
so overwhelmingly present and requires a real peace and grace.
And yet you know, pain is the thing that makes
it the hardest thing to do, and so it's hard then,
(24:17):
you know, it almost feels like if you're making a
profession of pain, and as you've talked about, like you know,
writing your book, when to have to you know, cozy
up with things that are quite uncomfortable to make real
friends with, with some pretty unagreeable monsters. You know, I've
I've felt like when I when I'm creative, it sort
of feels like playing with like a dog with rabies,
where it's like having a dog sled where every dog
(24:38):
has rabies and it's like they pour really hard and
they're really useful and they gave me where I need
to go, but you better be careful playing with them.
And so I think, you know, in the in the
effort of helping others, it is so extremely rewarding, right,
And it's yes, it's it's so it's the best thing
you can do.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Are are you able to feel it now? Yes? Yeah? Good,
good good. That's what I want to do.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
That's what to make sure and that's what people say, Well,
you have this, you know, you make money off.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Your book is.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Fucking damn right, I do. It's my suffering, right, there's
no shit like we went through it. You know, it's
your suffering. We get to now do what we want
and helping others for me is the you know, being
the service is huge for me.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
But I've always used being of service to offset the
roommates in my head tell me how shitty it was, right,
that's one thing.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Well, maybe because I always felt like it was a
horrible person. I got this pain, so I must be
a terrible person. It's my punishment. And now it's like
I used to, well, let me do these great things
and being of service so it could offset what got
me to think I was so bad. But now this
being of service, now when I hear people say, God,
you've saved my life. You've changed my life for You've
(25:44):
got me to connect with my son or daughter, and
it's been It definitely gets me to see blue and
lists me up. Are you able to tell me about
some of these messages you now get from people and
how it makes.
Speaker 5 (25:55):
You feel makes me feel the same way. And I've
received good he deserves it the messages.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
But it's fucking cool. It is very cool. And I'm
very grateful.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
I just think the thing I'm grateful for most was,
you know, there was there was a thing, or there
was a person I was looking for when I was
going through something right. And I remember in the spring
before I met we retired, there was a student athlete
committing suicide every other week, and I would I were
talking to my sports psychologist, and I felt like somebody
(26:27):
was pulling a joke on us. It felt so absurd,
and it felt and it felt like, you know, surely
somebody has to say something. And I think that's sort
of the just somebody has to be saying just somebody
has to say something. And I think everybody's afraid of
just being a somebody. But it's so easy to be
a somebody. Anybody can be just somebody. Fortunately I was
(26:47):
a person who could be just as somebody. And you know,
I had no glorious intentions. And of course, when I
was feeling the things I was feeling so drastically and
so awfully, you know, there was no Unfortunately, I viewed
it as as almost a martyrdom. When I was depressed
and I was thinking, you know, the only way I
can get resources, the only way I can get visibility
(27:09):
to this issue is to sacrifice myself. And of course,
you know, perhaps I would have if I wasn't so
busy between engineering and football. Perhaps I would have if
I you know, I don't know if like while you're
reading your book, like you know, I like to write,
and I just I love to edit and I can't
stop editing. So it's like I couldn't even conceive of
writing a suicide note because I wouldn't be able to
come up with the final draft. I would be thinking,
(27:31):
you know, I can't use this word. I've I have
to put a paragraph here, and do you think like
that right? And that's sort of funny because that life
becomes this beautiful daily suicide note where you say, you know,
this is me, this is what I'm doing, this is
what I believe, and you know, hopefully there comes a
day where you know, death sneaks up on you and
it's and it's not when you're sad, it's when you're
(27:53):
really grateful, when you're really happy, and then when it's
all said and done, you've you've put together a living
suicide note that is nothing more than a statement of
the things that you cared about the people that you helped,
and that's something that you know, I'm grateful that I
had the pause and the reprieve to get from moment
to moment until eventually I could say, you know, I'm
I'm grateful that I'm here. I bought myself time, and
(28:15):
I'm grateful that I did right. And it just lets
you you know, you don't have to The bright side
is if you if you don't like the suicide note
you write today, you get up tomorrow and you're.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Allowed to write it again.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
And whereas if you if you commit to it, if
you commit to suicide, that's final addition.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
There are no annotations. That's it.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
And God, I would hate if somebody would find write
a typo in your suicide note, because then it's just
what a bummer that is. So it's a great thing
to be able to live and to be able to
have a constant, editing power over your life.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I love what you said before. Man, it gave me chills.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
But you know, everybody could be a somebody, right, and
that's one of the most powerful things anybody's ever said
on the podcast.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, that was wow, man, that was incredible.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Before I let you go and you might have already
said this or not, but I ask all my guests
give me your unbreakable moment, like, yeah, you know, the
moment that should have broken you didn't.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
You came through the other side of that tunnel. As
a result, you'll be better and stronger for the rest
of your life.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
That's a great question, because I think there are a
lot of moments that are that hurt, but are not unbreakable,
and I think you need to be broken.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
You know, I'm a senior in engineering, and you know,
I was. I was.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
I was reading an email that had been shared with
me about this podcast, and and I identified. You know,
in engineering, there's something called the stress strain curve. And
stress is a force applied over an area. You know,
you can view it as pressing your hand on to
something right, you apply a pressure that's a stress strain.
Is the physical dislocations, the deformation of something right, and
(29:46):
it's it's it's the tearing of molecular bonds, it's the
restructuring of the material. And in this stress and strain curve,
there's an elastic region and there's a plastic region. In
the elastic region, if you apply a certain stress and
you remove the stress. It's going to go back to the.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Way it was before. Nothing changes.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
And there's the plastic region, or when you apply a
stress beyond a yield point, which is what delineates between
elastic and plastic, this yield strength. Once you apply a
stress greater than that, you now have permanent deformation. You
now have permanent change. So say that that unit is
yield strength, it is ten passals, two, three, four, five.
That might be painful, but that's not going to change you.
(30:24):
Six seven, eight nine. It's getting close, but it's not
going to change you. Then comes eleven passals, and the
atomic structure of you is changing permanently, and it hurts
so bad. That's the only way that you're going to
get permanent deformation. That's the only way you're going to
be able to change. And when you apply a plastic
change to a metal, let's say steal, that metal is
(30:44):
now going to be harder, it's going to be stronger
and have increased strength. And it's the only way. That's
how you machine, that's how you make cars, that's how
you make buildings, is you have to machine these metals
into these rigid structures. Right, and so for me, I
think my unbreakable moment, my moment where I have to
pass my yield strength and became something different.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
You know.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
I had a moment of self harm where I was
I was taking a box cutter to my neck and
I was bleeding, and for a moment, I thought I
had cut too deeply, and I thought, you know, I
had really booked my ticket, like this is it.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
And for a moment I was really terrified, like little
kid terrified.
Speaker 5 (31:17):
I was like, oh, like I just I just broke
Dad's vase, like this is this is it? You know,
sort of held my breath for a moment. Nothing happened,
And that night I went to sleep, and my entire
life I had viewed as this long table with all
the people I loved sitting there around me. Really beautiful moment,
right And in this dream, I was there. I was
(31:38):
in heaven and it was a long table and all
the people I loved were there, but there were empty
seats all around me. Right next to me, and all
the people who had ever hurt me in my life
came up to me and we apologized to each other
about all the things we did not know in our life.
And they were my first guests at the table and
I woke up. I had this experience wow, and I
(31:59):
was just very great, and I was filled with, you know,
this overcoming feeling of forgiveness for myself and for others.
You know, from that point, when things were really bad,
I would just think of that moment. I would think,
you know, there is a place like this, somewhere where
everything is forgiven. I forgive everybody, I forgive myself. It's okay,
(32:19):
and you know, eventually it's however many months, how many
every years removed. You know, I had, I had surpassed
my yield strength. I had been plastically deformed to become
stronger and harder than I was. And I needed to
be right because if I wasn't, then I wouldn't have
made it. But I took it. You know, you took
your you took your prescription of punishment, and it makes
you something better. And so for me, that was my
(32:39):
unbreakable moment.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Man.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
That is well, first of all, that's the smartest way
anybody's ever described and unbreakable moment inadequate metal far. But
it's also one of the deepest things I've I've heard. Man,
I appreciate you know, I'm I'm so glad you didn't
go deeper on that box cutter. It's too man, there's
so many other people you're gonna help. But now you
and I get to walk this walk together, move forward,
(33:02):
and I'm proud of that, dude. I'm proud to have
you as a teammate of mind.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Dude.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
Thank you so much for this opportunity and for putting
the Soul podcast and all of these things together.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Absolutely, man, and again we're man, We'll just start. You know,
I just talked to the NFL recently and said, you know,
what else can we do? I said, Man, you guys
are probably ten years behind of the lot where you
got to be, you know, because.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
We're not even scratching the surface.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
But because we have somebody's like you, were able to
scratch the surface a lot better and open up conversations.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
But we don't really know where to.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Go yet, right, But we got to get us there
because that's we all deserve, right man, Harry, I really
appreciate you, brother. I'm going to send you my phone
number man on on uh, I'll damn it to you.
And hey, you got a teammate to walk this walk
with you.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
I really appreciate that yes, thank you up too,
Fox Sports Radio News
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Jonas Knox
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