May 9, 2023 • 43 mins
The Book of Joe Podcast begins with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon reacting to the Cardinals move with Willson Contreras. Joe gives his thoughts on the handling of the situation and how the team moves forward. MLB Coach Mike Borzello joins the show and talks about working with Contreras and this early season decision. We explore the 'state' of catching and how it's impacting the game. Mike reveals situations behind the plate that teams are allowing that could be costing them wins and negatively affecting their pitchers. We wrap up with 'A Reading from the Book of Joe' with Mike picking page 58 to learn from!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,
welcome back to another episode of the Book of Joe
podcast with me, Tom Berducci, and Joe Madden and Joe
(00:24):
as a former catcher as a former manager of Wilson Contreras.
I'm sure you're following closely what's happened in the last
week with the Saint Louis Cardinals and their eighty five
million dollar free agent Wilson Contreras, who the Cardinals decided
after a very slow start to the season that.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
He's no longer their catcher.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
It took only twenty three starts behind the plate for
Contreras for the Cardinals to say, you know what, No,
we're going to take a mulligan on you being our
everyday catcher.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Give me your first reaction when you heard.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
About this, Joe, since you know both the Cardinals and
Wilson so.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, Yeah, surprised. As an under statement, I don't. I'd
like to know more. We're not going to know more
the real reasons and new are the motivating factors behind this.
I mean it's not This is not as easier obvious
as we're disappointed in him catching, so we have to
(01:21):
move on after twenty some games. After all, they got
to see him play in Chicago for how many years
they saw, you know, the playoffs in the World Series.
They've seen him. Obviously they have. They scotted him. We're
just just talking to Scotting with boards a couple of
minutes ago. They've scotted him. So going into this, if
there's any zits, you got to know that in advance.
So there's something internal going on there. And the fact
(01:42):
that they're off to a bad start absolutely, It's it's
incredible how we always have to look for reasons. I
looked at their pitching numbers. I mean, they're right in
the middle of the packer number nine overall. And again
it's early. That's the thing. It's so darn early. And
for me, when you invest that much money in a
player like Wilson and he's there for absolute particular reason,
(02:04):
they don't there's a way that you could be cutting
into some confidence here and some trust over a long
period of time. I mean, the only thing I could
think of is when the Red Sox, I'm Carl Crawford
and after a couple of days or weeks whatever, they
dropped them from two to seven or eight and that
you know, Carl said all the right things, but eventually
that really blows your mind up. So I don't know,
(02:26):
there's there's more to it. You can't blame it on him.
I'm sorry. I'm looking at the numbers. I know they're
coming alcohol of fame catcher and I'm a big yachty
guy and we all are, but I there's there's something
undermining going on there. And I know it's a tradition
based organization and they do. From my perspective, I like
what they do. I think they're more real and traditional
(02:51):
and they put analytics, you know, in the background using it,
but I think they do go by their own methods.
That's been my impression. So I'm just curious because to me,
it really didn't make a whole lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, you just hinted that the guests we're going to
bring on. Mike Borsello, long time catching instructor and game
strategists for you with the Cubs and long before that
with the New York Yankees championship teams. He obviously knows
Wilson well worked with him on a daily basis, including Wilson.
Treres was behind the plate in Game seven of a
(03:23):
World Series in twenty sixteen, and now he's not an
everyday catcher.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I have a lot of problems with this, Joe. I mean,
first of all, Wilson Contreras.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Only started seventy two games behind plate for the Cubs
last year. You know he DHD much of the time.
To me, he's not one hundred and ten hundred and
twenty game catcher. You want his bat in the lineup
as a DH. He can play the outfield in the pinch,
but he's not the kind of guy you're signing to be.
Yadia Molina, I'm sorry you go in there with eyes
(03:52):
wide open. The Cardinals are off to a terrible start. Listen,
this is a pitching staff that is built on soft contact.
It's not a swing and miss staph. We now have
rules where you cannot shift, and the Cardinals have gone
from one of the better defensive teams to one of
the worst defensive teams. Their expected batting average is lower
than what the actual batting average on balls and play is.
(04:14):
It tells me they're not in the right spot. They're
just not playing good defense. There's a lot of problems here,
Listen to. The pitching staff has been terrible on two
strike counts. Is that the catcher's fault is generally the
problem of execution rather than selection.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
You know, go around the horn.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
You have a logjam of outfielders where some of these
young players are not progressing the way that they should
because no one's guaranteed an everyday spot in the lineup.
Jordan Walker makes the team out of spring training and
after a blink and I he's back in the minor
leagues where he's now struggling. So all these things are
coming to a confluence here with the Cardinals, and I
don't know why they were so public about saying, you
(04:56):
know what the problem is, Wilson Contraras, and I know
John Mosela came out of his way to say, listen,
we're not blaming him, but that's the message you gave people.
You singled out the one move that you're making. You
essentially announced first they said he's gonna play the outfield.
A couple of days later is not, actually, we misspoke,
He's not gonna play the outfield. They have too many
outfielders as it is, So I don't like that the
(05:16):
fact that listen, if you're not happy with the job
he's doing behind the plate. Okay, fine, you don't have
to announce it to the world that he's no longer
catching after essentially, you know, twenty three games behind the plate.
I don't think it's fair to the player. I don't
think it's fair to the rest of the team. So,
as you mentioned, Joe, I'm sure there's a lot of
things going on here. Let's not forget it's not just
(05:39):
that you know, Yady Molina is gone, Mike Maddocks, a
pitching coach is gone.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
They've got a new pitching coach.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
And you think about they had a nexus of Mike Schilt,
Yady Molina, Mike Maddox, a lot of experience there. All
those now have turned over. It's not the same run
prevention team. I think they'll figure it out, but they're
in danger of burying themselves this early in the season.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, just back to something you said earlier about Wilson
and I guess he only caught seventy some games last
year when we were there, Borse and I. My thing
with him was to never have him catch more than
three games in a row. A couple of times. I
think in August I went four times in a row
just because he was so valuable his ability to both
stop a running game hit and again, I mean I
(06:26):
know this A lot of this is analytically driven for me,
because even back then, we got a lot of pressure,
you know, regarding him his receiving ability, and again based
on metrics and framing and all these different numbers that
are now available to us. There's a lot of people
that did not like him analytically even at that time.
Borsy could talk about this more specifically, but we worked
(06:47):
very hard to bring him up to speed. And the
thing about Wilson to me that I was really impressed
with his work ethic and his prep work. I can't
even say it got better. It was always very good.
He just got to understand a position better as we
went through this problem for several years with him. Yeah,
there's there's definitely some kind of a power struggle going
(07:09):
on there. Somebody is attempting to become the next Yati
somehow in order to take charge of this pitching and
pitching staff and and how we're going to do this.
But you'll get back in this right here, Borzy, Mike
BORZELI going to talk to to me does this better
than anybody in baseball I've I've referenced it in the
past when we won some big series with the Cubs
(07:31):
that the other team got borzelloed. He has a method
that he applies that's unique to himself. It's analytically driven
in his own cocktail. Nobody else does it like him
because the way he breaks it down, the way he
presents it to the catcher and the pitchers is unique.
And then furthermore, in game, he has the ability to
(07:52):
relay information and stuff to the catcher real time that
I think I've sawt I mean, i've he said standing
next time we'll be talking about it, and I saw
it happen. Last point, I think maybe regarding that the
pitch clock possibly has actually permitted or decreased the amount
of time that you could lend to making decisions or
(08:13):
relay information. And I do to what extent that may
be impactful with this too, and why you have to
give it more time As a catcher in this situation
is understanding the staff and how we're prepping and how
we're trying to do things. All these things are underconnected.
Last point, it is May night, brother, it is May night.
So to me, you got to be careful with the
(08:34):
signals you're putting out there right now because it could
be devastating during the course of the year.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, good point, and listen, now, the bulk of the
catching is going to Andrew Kisner, really good receiver.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
He's not going to hit. He is not going to hit.
That's fine if you want to live with that. You
think you have offense elsewhere. But remember, if you're dh
In Contreras, now you're taking it bats away from Nolan Gorman,
and that's another young hitter is off to a good start.
Then you're disrupting his development. So there's a lot of
problems here. I think with roster construction and use of players.
(09:09):
What I would have done, I would have not made
this thing public. There's no reason to announce Wilson Contreras
can't catch. It's essentially what they did. They've just totally
ruined his trade value. He's got no trade clause anyway.
I would have had him catch the same two starters.
You know, he's if two or three start behind the plate,
a weak guy. Instead of working with the entire staff,
(09:29):
have him worked with two starters, match him up, you know,
make his job a little bit easier as he gets
indoctrinated into whatever complicated system the Cardinals have. But yeah,
I didn't like that they played this out so publicly.
We'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
But listen, you tease, and you did a very good
job of this.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Joe teasing our guests coming up, Mike borzel I've actually
you have as well, of course, but I've seen him
do his work between innings, sitting down with Wilson Contreras.
Here's the next three hitters coming up throughout a game.
What adjustments we need to make, what's working, what's not working.
Here's what we're gonna work on next inning. It's uh,
you know, the Cubs were ahead of the curve with
(10:06):
Borsello when it comes to game planning. In game planning
as you have it. So let's talk to Mike Borsello.
We'll bring them on right after this.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Welcome back to the Book of Joke podcast and say
hello to Mike Borzello. How you doing, Mike good?
Speaker 4 (10:32):
How are you? Tom?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I am well.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Listen, let me start with something Joe brought up, and
that's these these metrics and saber metric numbers that a
lot of teams put a lot of faith in when
it comes to catchers, framing, blocking, throwing, what have you?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
How reliable have you found.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Those numbers to be in grading out a catcher's abilities.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Well, I mean, it's obviously debatable when you talk to
the analytics department, it's there. It's heavy receiving, right, It's
it's receiving one. The rest of it falls probably evenly
at number two. So that's been an adjustment in the
(11:17):
game where, you know, not everyone agrees with that. I
mean a lot of people agree that game calling is
the most important thing, that managing a staff is more important.
That you can suffer on the receiving side as long
as as that's going well. Giving up the throwing in
(11:38):
the blocking and selling out for receiving is another debate.
You know, in modern baseball we see more balls go
to the backstop on a nightly basis with catchers on
one knee that are you know, basically selling out to
to the bottom of the zone receiving. So I want
(11:59):
every I want to catcher that's well rounded. I believe
in the receiver being important, but I also believe in
blocking and throwing and first and foremost calling the game
and handling your pitching staff. That comes first.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So obviously borzy.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
You know Wilson Ntra as well, You've worked with him
for years on a daily basis. First of all, your
reaction when you read and heard about the Cardinals essentially
turning him into a DH and no longer their regular catcher.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Yeah, obviously it's surprising when you commit to a guy
for that type of money and for that length of time.
I think everyone was shocked. But I don't know the
inside story on that. I don't know what's going on.
I can't speak to their decision, but of course I
(12:55):
was surprised. I mean, having Wilson for for what five
six years in Chicago, I never had any issues with
him as far as you know, prepping and calling a game,
but we did it in a system, a different system,
(13:17):
So I again, I can't speak to what they're going through.
They have obviously a different way of doing things than
we did. But surprised, Yeah, shocked so early in the season,
you know, not even what is it? Thirty games in
and you're making a pretty big decision.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Part of that with where's he brought up? Early on,
I was trying to list what are the tools now
that groups are looking for regarding a catching position. I
mean back in the day, it was pretty much catching.
Catch was described as catching and defense and throwing. Then
you wanted to hit for some power and possibly hitting.
The last thing you looked for was speed. Among the
(14:00):
five tools and no. Number one right now, I agree framing.
I mean, it's not even receiving or catching, it's framing.
And like Michael talked about there at the bottom of
the zone, up and doing the glove movement all the
time and from one knee and listen. I can't dispute
because I was watching the other day. I was watching.
I can't remember who the catcher was, Minnesota's catcher, I think,
(14:21):
and he was getting a lot of calls, a lot
of calls, and apparently he's got a great reputation the
way he was pulling the ball back into the zone,
which of course is going to be somewhat mitigated I think,
or if there's an actual electronics strike zone. But point
is number one right now is framing. So when a kid,
when a Scott goes out, and now when you're listing
(14:41):
the five tools for a catcher, it's completely different, is
it framing than for me? Game planning and then hit
hit with power, blocking like Mike, He's talked about there
is really not even that important anymore to these guys.
And then throwing. You would think this year, with the
different rules and the fact that there should be an
ascension in base dealing and base running, it's like a
(15:03):
guy how that controls to me, could totally stop that
particular part of the game and benefit your defense and
the thoughts put in the other team's heads. But I
think throwing has really gone to the bottom of the
last one I have was to lead. You know, when
we used to look for catchers as a scout, you
wanted leadership, callity, he wanted to assertive, this aggressiveness. You
wanted to see those those kind of attributes from the player.
(15:26):
And I'm not saying that the catchers today aren't unable
to do that, but the way the game is brought
to the clubhouse now from you know, analytics and whatever,
leading is not necessarily as important as it had been.
And I believe it is, but I'm just saying I
don't think it's listed as being as important or thought
of as being as important. So the five tools as
(15:47):
we knew them, every position, every the baseball players have
five tools, and you would list them according to what
was more pertinent regarding the position they played. So right now,
you could say defense for a catcher, but it's different.
It's framing. And then Mike, Mike said game planning, and
then everything works off of that because defense to me
would have been blocking. Defense to me would have been throwing.
(16:08):
But I think there's been less of an emphasis there
and more on just trying to catch a strike and
making sure that you have the right pitch called on
your wristband.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Borsey again, getting back to Wilson, give me your own
and you know him as well, if not better than anybody,
your own scouting report on what he does well, what
he still needs to work on. More importantly, the relationship
working with pitchers.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Well, I mean my relationship with Wilson goes back to
the off season of twenty fifteen. We had just gotten
beat by the Mats four straight in the NLCS, and
THEO sent me to Arizona to go meet this kid
(16:57):
who is down there plane in the Fall League, and
he wanted a report on him. He wanted me to
see Wilson Contreras. So I flew in, never went home,
flew from from Chicago to to Arizona, and I met
with Wilson and we went through some stuff and we spoke,
and I found a passion for the game in him
(17:20):
that was undeniable. I mean, he loves baseball, he loves
to play, he loves to compete, and THEO asked me
for for a report on him after I left. Unfortunately,
I really didn't get to see him play. The first
game I went to see him play in the Fall League,
he pulled a hamstring. So we spent the week going
over how we do things at the big league level.
(17:44):
We were we went over reports, we went over video,
we we broke down hitters. I wanted to introduce him to,
you know, the major league style of prep work, and
especially our prep work and our system with the Cubs,
and he was all in. So THEO asked me, what
do you got, and I said, let's do it, britt,
(18:06):
Let's what are we waiting on. This guy's our guy, like,
let's go. He's all in. It'll work. We'll make it work.
This guy's going to be a player. And the next
year he shows up, I believe. In June we called
him up in the middle of a you know, the
twenty sixteen season, we called up a catcher. I mean,
(18:28):
when does that ever happen a team that's, you know,
pick to win the World Series. And we brought up
Wilson Contreras in the middle of the season, you know,
to to have a three headed monster with David Ross
Miguel Montero and Wilson Contreras, and Wilson got the bulk
of the playing time. Obviously Rossy caught John Lester and
(18:50):
Maggie was catching Arietta. But ultimately Wilson showed up and
was was getting the bulk of the time, and we
made it work. He jumped right in. He we had
already spoken about how we do things and the rest
is history, right, I mean, we we won the World Series.
(19:12):
I think you spoke earlier about how Wilson Contrera started
Game seven in the World Series and game six If
you don't, you know, people forget he caught Arieta in
Game six. So I mean we had we had a
crash course in sixteen with him and uh and he
(19:32):
fit in seamlessly, to be honest, I mean it it
just worked and he and he was a big piece
to our championship run.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, there was a great story about Wilson was not
signed as a catcher.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
I think he was an infielder.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yeah, and as you mentioned, he's got such a passion
for the game.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
It was one day.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
He saw some catchers equipment lying around, wanted to warm
up pitchers, just to keep himself busy, and lo and behold,
he turned himself into a catcher. It's that the position
suits him really well because he's an active guy. We
know he's got a very strong arm. I think he
likes being a leader behind the plate. I'm not sure
what Saint Louis missed here, because they were in it
(20:14):
for Sean Murphy in a trade from Oakland, decided to
pass Joe. You mentioned Christian Vasquez, the catcher with the
Minnesota Twins, is to me, really fit the Saint Louis
style of kind of emphasizing defense over bat first behind
the plate. They went in a really different direction here
(20:34):
and they don't like where they went. Obviously a very
quick way into a five year contract. And I don't
think I don't think that's on Wilson Contreres. I think
that's more on the Cardinals. So, Borzy, what do you think,
what do you think the future is for Wilson?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
You think he adapts to this. Do you think he
has to find another place?
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Is he comfortable, you know, not catching, because we saw
some quotes from him in Chicago where in his mind
he's still a catcher.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Yeah, no, I think he he is a catcher. That's
one hundred percent the truth. I mean, this guy has
to be behind the plate. We spoke about the position
changing over the last four or five years and the
focus being on framing and receiving. And you know, Wilson's
(21:25):
elite strengths are his throwing arm and his ability to block.
So if you don't value that, then you don't value
Wilson contraras. I mean, that is where he excels. He's
at the top of the list of all catchers when
it comes to throwing. And I'm not even talking about
throwing people out. I'm talking about deterring the running game
(21:49):
just because of his arm. People don't run the game.
The running game gets shut down before the series even
starts because they know he can throw. So it's not
always about the numbers. It's also the back picks where
he keeps a guy close to first, the leads get shorter.
There are so many things that his game does to
(22:13):
make the other team change their style, and those things
are not really quantifiable. At times, you know, you can't
really you can't really see the value he does bring
when it comes to stuff like that. The blocking, I mean,
Wilson contraras is as good a blocker as there is
(22:34):
in the game. I mean, but if you put him
on one knee and we don't value that, then there
goes another one of his strengths. So again, it's all
about what the organization looks at, how they look at
the position, what they value. If it's solely or ninety
(22:55):
percent about framing, and you're willing to sacrifice the other
parts of the game, then yes, Wilson's Wilson's value isn't
going to be quite as high. It's just not. But
as far as being a catcher, Wilson is a is
A is a catcher. Wilson has succeeded at the big
(23:16):
league level, has played in important games, has won a championship,
has played in the All Star Game, has let's not
forget this guy caught John Lester, John Lackey, Jake Arietta,
Kyle Hendritz, Cole Hamble's. I mean, I can go on
and on and we never had any issues. Again, I'm
(23:40):
not going to speak for the Cardinals. I don't know
what's going on there and I don't want to speak
for them at all. And obviously they have their reasons
and I respect that. But we didn't have any of
those issues in Chicago with those pitchers that I mentioned,
And those are veteran guys, tough guys that, as you know,
(24:00):
can be tough on it on a young catcher, and
it worked. It worked for us.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
It is just about work. Point on that. I mean,
Wilson always has accepted constructive criticism. Well, so, I mean
how he reacted to all of this from what I saw,
what I read some voices, voiceovers that he gave doesn't
surprise me. I know he's probably he was impacted. He
was affected by all this. It hurt, there's no question.
(24:29):
But my moments with him has been that that he
does accept constructive criticism. Well, yes, he does want to
get better. He started out as not being a catcher,
so by no means as he thinks he knows everything.
And like boys just said, listen, when you catch Johnny
Lester and John Lackey, especially those two dudes, my goodness,
(24:51):
you have to have some thick skin. Brother, it is tough.
And on top of that, Johnny Lester really not only
survived but got better and proliferated with it comes because
I you know, after David left the with Wilson did
behind the plate, because you had to stop the running game.
You had to be a determined somehow. And we worked
(25:14):
this little thing with the triangle with Wilson, Rizzo and
Johnny when he pitched. It really helped settle Johnny's mind
every time he pitched. So there's all these different things
that his ability to do with tools do and again
right now, it just seems as though one is being
It really comes down to framing. I think game planning.
(25:37):
If that is the case, that could easily be mitigated
just by science coming from the bench. So to me,
it sounds like somebody just doesn't like the ways receiving pitches.
And it sounds to me as though, I mean, I
know him, he'll take that, he'll get better with it,
he'll make the adjustments. But he has caught some really
difficult pitchers to catch in some very good ones.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
We're going to take a quick break when we get back.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I want to ask Mike Borzello our catching expert here
about the state of catching in the major leagues right now?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Are we at a tipping point?
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Back?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Right after this.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts and Borzia.
I mentioned the state of catching because I think in
this stolen based environment we have now, maybe there should
be and will be an emphasis again on his throwing
arms for catchers and defending the running game from behind
the plate. Let's face it, in the analytical era, you know,
taking chances on the basis was frowned upon, and I
(26:42):
think we're we've opened up the game a little bit.
It's more exciting. And I look around the game now
and I see some young catchers like Attleie Rushman, Gabriel
Moreno Logan o'happy is injured right now. It's really impressive
in a short time with the Angels. Sean Murphy, of course,
what he's doing with the Braves is just MVP level
Cape at Ruiz with the with the Nationals, and of
(27:04):
course Will Smith is still young but a young veteran
with the Dodgers. So give me your take on catching
now and maybe what's being emphasized. I know you mentioned
the one knee, which I don't mind, but I hate
to see teams prioritize framing low pitches with runners in
scoring position. They're costing themselves runs and bases. So I
(27:29):
know that's a lot to take on. But as you
look at catching around the game, how do you see
it evolving this year?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (27:35):
I mean, this is one of the biggest debate you
can find in baseball is how the catching position has
changed over the last three or four years, five years.
The one knee catching, the one knee catching with a
(27:56):
man on third, Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, In
my opinion, one knee catching's fine. One knee catching has
been going on for one hundred and fifty years when
there's nobody on base and less than two strikes. It's
always been around. It's not something new. A lot of
(28:17):
guys had trouble catching or receiving nasty stuff, so they
cleared their left knee by putting it on the ground.
So that's been going on for years. What's changed is
that now we're doing it with a runner on third.
Now we're doing it with runners on second and third
in a tie game, and we're still selling out to
(28:43):
receiving a ball at the bottom of the zone, and
we're we're not as concerned with blocking, and it's something
I don't really understand and I don't agree with. I'm
all for receiving on one knee whenever you can, when
it's nobody on base, when it's less than two strikes. Sure,
(29:05):
if you have an elite athlete behind the plate, like
a JT. Real Muto who can catch on one knee
and still throw out of it and still block out
of it, well then that's a unique skill set. Sure,
I'm fine with that as well. But there are not
many JT. Real Muto's out there.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, borsy, let me just jump in there, because I
think that's an important point. It's a system of catching
that I think not everybody can do well. Like in theory, yes,
it works, but I see a lot, especially some of
these bigger catchers, they just can't move as well as
someone like JT. Who was a high school shortstop and
(29:45):
a quarterback and a great athlete. He's exceptional. But having
a one size fits all for different catchers, I don't
get it. I've seen it. I'm sure you've seen it too.
It must drive you crazy. Where that catcher on one
knee with a runner on third base is limited to
what he can cover only by his reach. In other words,
he can't shift his body, especially you know, if it's
(30:07):
across his body on the arm side, it just can't
cover enough to block a ball to prevent a run.
And I don't know why teams aren't valuing that.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
It's it's they go off right big bucket sample sizes
they need. They they believe that you don't alter your
game based on the situation. That that's what we're doing.
That that's how the analytics departments think. I understand that
they go off of large sample sizes, so they don't
(30:41):
look at the one run in the moment the way
we do. They look at it as a small sample.
So for them, it's it's a whole different way of
looking at the game. I agree with you, Tom, it's
it drives me nuts when you have a catcher on
one knee with a man on third and a tie game,
(31:05):
and he's the catcher calls a two strike slider that
he knows is probably going to be in the dirt
and he has no ability to block it to his right,
and the ball ends up at the backstop and the
game ends. And we saw it earlier this year. I
believe we've seen a game end on a ball in
(31:25):
the dirt go to the backstop. Guy was on one knee.
He tried to flag it with a backhand and he
missed it. I mean, it's really there's so many other
variables to it as well, because we don't talk about
the fact that that pitcher who threw that pitch that
ended up in the backstop, at the backstop and now
(31:46):
that run scores the next time out. He's either not
as apt to bounce that slider, which he should do
to this hitter to get him to swing and miss.
So now he's not going to bounce that slider because
he doesn't want the same result that happened last week.
Or he's not gonna throw that slider, and he's gonna
(32:06):
throw a fastball, which is not the right pitch to throw,
but because of his fear of giving up that run
at third, because the catcher is not going to block
the ball. All these little things that happen that no
one really discusses. It's a domino effect of how it
affects the mindset of a pitcher and a catcher. I
(32:28):
mean catchers at times when they don't think they can
block a pitch, especially at the end of their careers
when they get older, they don't call that pitch. They
go to the pitch they can catch. And that is
what's happening here as well. That I just think there's
so many other discussions that can be had about this
(32:51):
stuff that haven't been had. You know, there's just so
many different things that go into this position and uh yeah,
this one knee with this one nie set, with runners
in scoring position and allowing balls to get past you
(33:11):
and we're calling them wild pitches is to me, is
just not right.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I just wrote it down confidence of the pitcher throwing
a pitch in that situation, and over a period of time,
you're right, he's just not going to bear it anymore.
And you spoke to the point of the large sample size.
And that's the one thing that as all that's been
that's been most bothersome to me as a manager using
analytics during the game is the fact that we're always
(33:39):
just going off of a large sample size. And I'm
here to say, and I've asked every organization I've been
with to build me a matrix with trends involved in
not just large sample size, because things change from week
to week. Things change from month to month, things change,
players change over the course of time. But we're always
facing our decision making on this large number because eventually, yeah,
(34:02):
over time it possibly well, it's going to come back.
But losing that one game or those two games, are
that five game losing street that can bury you in
a particular month or in a week. You could may
have been avoidable had we just followed maybe a little
bit different plan based on guys that are hot right now,
Guys that are not hot right now, guys that are
(34:24):
not themselves, guys that are really not very good but
all of a sudden are and how do we treat
them under those circumstances. I know, Bores, when he's doing
his things, he's going to identify, specifically outside of the
large sample sites, who do we have to be careful
with right now? And maybe the dude on the other
side that is the is the guy we're going to
go after him. He is all screwed up right now,
(34:44):
he's not seeing the ball. Well, my pitcher versus him,
my stuff really matches up well right now, Let's attack him,
and let's be careful with somebody else, just based on
the last week or ten days, and that's the part
of this that always frustrated me managing wise. I want,
I want, I want somebody to tell me, show me, Trent,
show me what's going on right now, tell me this
(35:06):
large sample size, give it to me. I want it, Yes,
but what's happening right now? And make our adjustments according
to that, Ie, run around third base, tie score on
the road? Can I bury this slider or not? Do
I have confidence that my catcher has the technique in
the ability to block this pitch that I need to make.
Those are the kind of thoughts that need to be
(35:26):
a nurtured more I think.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
I agree, Joe. I agree. I also think game state matters, right.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeap, of course, yeah, I mean, Mike, this has just
been fascinating, fascinating insights into not just Wilson Contreras, but
catching and what goes on behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
We do have one more job for.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
You before we go here, though, and it's easy, you
believe me. We call it a reading from the Book
of Joe. We ask our guests to pick a number
between one and three hundred and sixty eight, and we'll
turn to that page in our book, the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
So you're at bet. Mike Borzello, it's your call.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
You pick a number, any number between one and three
sixty eight.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
All right, I'll pick my cub number, number fifty.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Eight, number fifty eight. Why was that your cub number?
Speaker 4 (36:17):
By the way, I don't know. They issued it to
me and it stuck. It stuck.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Otis Tomothy Tomothy gave it to him.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Okay, this is one of Joe's favorite games. Actually, Game
four National League Championship Series. Remember this one, Mike, Oh yeah,
Cubs are losing five to two on the road against
the Giants.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
In the ninth inning.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
They were three outs away from having to play a
winner take all Game five against San Francisco, and it's
ace Johnny Quato, who had dominated them in Game one
with no walks and ten punchouts over eight innings. We
beat them one nothing in Game one with Hobby baya
Is hitting a home right into the wind in the
basket left field men says, I did not want to
see Cueto again. That's all I could think about Game four.
(37:04):
And these Giants have been battle tested, they had won
three in the past six World Series. We don't want
to mess with a Game five with these guys, right,
there ninth inning, down three, Quato looming. Any decision I'm
making has nothing to do with analytics. It has everything
to do with what I'm feeling and seeing in the moment.
(37:26):
And boy, that was one of the great postseason rallies
you will ever see. Bruce Bochi kept madly changing relief pitchers.
Joe Madden had an answer for all of them. Hobby
bay As I think was it Hobby Bya's two strike
hit winds up putting you into the lead, and.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
You move on and avoided seeing Johnny Equato. Remember that one,
Mike Borzello.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
I do remember that one vividly. And I also used
that game as an example of putting the ball in
play matters, because Hobby hit that seventy mile an hour
grounder up the middle, and Wilson comes up and does
the exact same thing. We had two seeing eye ground
(38:10):
balls that helped us win that game, I mean, because
we did not want to faith Quato again.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
That's exactly right, right.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Wilson contreres our guy is the two runs single. He
was a pinch hitter for the pinch hitter.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
That's correct. For that's correct. It went from did it
go from Russell Addison to Coglin, back to Controerse. I
think that's up when based on what they were doing.
And yeah, he just poked it back up the middle.
And then Hobby, I mean that's that's the point. I mean,
the small sample size, what do you need in the moment,
And and you have to have this ability to downshift.
(38:47):
You got to down shift, you got to move the ball,
you got to put it in play. Can always be
about the ball in the gap or over the wall.
So our guys did a great job. And like like
you just read in the book right there, I did
not want to see Quato again. He was that good.
And to me, that was the game that won the
World Series for us.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
That is just amazing, Mike, that somehow you brought this
back to where we started.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, right, chick it out of that. That so good.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
This has been a blast mic, really interesting stuff. You're
the best. We appreciate all your time.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
Of course, thanks for having me, guys.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
And before you leave, Boors, I just I want to
say something because I mean this sincerely. Uh you know,
to me, Bors is like the first guy you want
to hire on a coaching staff, No, no doubt. If
you're if you're searching or seeking to put your major
league staff together. His talents and his abilities are are
better than anybody else I've been with in this particular position.
(39:49):
I don't think that that's well known enough, So I
just just for the sake of but I just want
to say it out loud because I've seen him as
a difference maker and then you've already heard it, not
afraid to give his opinion. I think in today's game,
in today's world in general, everybody wants agreeable agreeables on
their staff or with their group. I like those that
are a little bit of a contrarian at times, and
(40:12):
then after you've made your decision, let's go on and
move it in the right direction. So boys, he's going
to tell you what he's thinking. He's not going to
tell you what you want to hear. And to me,
that's the most valuable kind of coach you can have
on the staff. So Michael, Mike got up at six
o'clock in the morning in Sacra Meto today to be
with us, and so I appreciate a brother. And again,
you never.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
Disappoint oh anytime. Thanks Joe, I appreciate it, right man,
Thank you Mike.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Well, Joe, that was a fascinating discussion. I found it
really interesting when Mike talked about how much the catching
position has changed.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Just in the last three or four years. My goodness.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Yeah, I mean, and typically you heard in this conversation,
I thought he was outstanding. Typically that's what I get
every day. When you work with bors the every day,
that's what you get. So he's there's going to be
times he's gonna be a little rough because he's just
telling you what he thinks. He puts a lot of
time into this. He can be very emotional about his work,
(41:06):
but at the end of the day, it's really good
work and it and it does it holds up. I've
seen it hold up. It's that much faith or confidence
in his abilities. And to me, the fact that he's
not in a dugout somewhere right now really blows me away.
And not just I mean sometimes I you know, again,
he can't be difficult sometimes only because he's very opinionated.
And that's what you've got to get past. Because he's
(41:28):
that he's that solid and his and his his information
is really going to be that pertinent to the game.
And heck, if I ever got a job again. Ever,
he'd be one. He'd be the first guy, and Tim
Buss told be the second guy that I would hire.
I think that they are that good. Uh. They they're
difference makers. And I can't tell. I'm telling you, when
(41:48):
you hire coaches, you want guys that could really make
a difference. That they do something that nobody else, No
other coaches are capable of doing that you could possibly hire.
Bors's one, Bussy's another. They're just difference makers and and
and they're they're their skill set is unique. And I
guess and I'm going on and on about him, and
I'm just telling you he was that vital right down
(42:11):
to the last pitch in the World Series when he
knew Martinez could not hit a Leeftenant curveball and you
saw that chopper to third base to KB. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
And it's so important, you know this, Joe, to have
people on your staff who will challenge your way of thinking,
not just rubber stampish and agree with it.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I want that. I need that for me to be
good at what I do. I need that. And I
think if I have a sprint as a manager, as
the coaches that I do delegate responsibility, I don't want
to do your job. That's your job to do. I
got my job to do. And with guys like boards
on the staff, you know you just you hand it off.
You hand it off. He goes, he runs with it,
and I promise you it's going to be a great result.
(42:52):
A lot of time and work goes into it. It's
his own method. You've been borzelloed. I'm telling you it matters.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
All right, Joe, as an old catcher yourself, it's your
call here, you call the pitch to take us home.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
What do you got?
Speaker 3 (43:04):
Twain again? I had to go Twain. The two most
important days of your life were the day that you're born,
and that the day that you find out why. And
I think I found out that why was the fact
that I would meet Mike Borzello someday.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I love it. Can't go wrong with Mark, No, I
cannot see next time.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Joe, all right, buddy, nice job.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,
welcome back to another episode of the Book of Joe
podcast with me, Tom Berducci, and Joe Madden and Joe
(00:24):
as a former catcher as a former manager of Wilson Contreras.
I'm sure you're following closely what's happened in the last
week with the Saint Louis Cardinals and their eighty five
million dollar free agent Wilson Contreras, who the Cardinals decided
after a very slow start to the season that.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
He's no longer their catcher.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
It took only twenty three starts behind the plate for
Contreras for the Cardinals to say, you know what, No,
we're going to take a mulligan on you being our
everyday catcher.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Give me your first reaction when you heard.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
About this, Joe, since you know both the Cardinals and
Wilson so.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, Yeah, surprised. As an under statement, I don't. I'd
like to know more. We're not going to know more
the real reasons and new are the motivating factors behind this.
I mean it's not This is not as easier obvious
as we're disappointed in him catching, so we have to
(01:21):
move on after twenty some games. After all, they got
to see him play in Chicago for how many years
they saw, you know, the playoffs in the World Series.
They've seen him. Obviously they have. They scotted him. We're
just just talking to Scotting with boards a couple of
minutes ago. They've scotted him. So going into this, if
there's any zits, you got to know that in advance.
So there's something internal going on there. And the fact
(01:42):
that they're off to a bad start absolutely, It's it's
incredible how we always have to look for reasons. I
looked at their pitching numbers. I mean, they're right in
the middle of the packer number nine overall. And again
it's early. That's the thing. It's so darn early. And
for me, when you invest that much money in a
player like Wilson and he's there for absolute particular reason,
(02:04):
they don't there's a way that you could be cutting
into some confidence here and some trust over a long
period of time. I mean, the only thing I could
think of is when the Red Sox, I'm Carl Crawford
and after a couple of days or weeks whatever, they
dropped them from two to seven or eight and that
you know, Carl said all the right things, but eventually
that really blows your mind up. So I don't know,
(02:26):
there's there's more to it. You can't blame it on him.
I'm sorry. I'm looking at the numbers. I know they're
coming alcohol of fame catcher and I'm a big yachty
guy and we all are, but I there's there's something
undermining going on there. And I know it's a tradition
based organization and they do. From my perspective, I like
what they do. I think they're more real and traditional
(02:51):
and they put analytics, you know, in the background using it,
but I think they do go by their own methods.
That's been my impression. So I'm just curious because to me,
it really didn't make a whole lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, you just hinted that the guests we're going to
bring on. Mike Borsello, long time catching instructor and game
strategists for you with the Cubs and long before that
with the New York Yankees championship teams. He obviously knows
Wilson well worked with him on a daily basis, including Wilson.
Treres was behind the plate in Game seven of a
(03:23):
World Series in twenty sixteen, and now he's not an
everyday catcher.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I have a lot of problems with this, Joe. I mean,
first of all, Wilson Contreras.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Only started seventy two games behind plate for the Cubs
last year. You know he DHD much of the time.
To me, he's not one hundred and ten hundred and
twenty game catcher. You want his bat in the lineup
as a DH. He can play the outfield in the pinch,
but he's not the kind of guy you're signing to be.
Yadia Molina, I'm sorry you go in there with eyes
(03:52):
wide open. The Cardinals are off to a terrible start. Listen,
this is a pitching staff that is built on soft contact.
It's not a swing and miss staph. We now have
rules where you cannot shift, and the Cardinals have gone
from one of the better defensive teams to one of
the worst defensive teams. Their expected batting average is lower
than what the actual batting average on balls and play is.
(04:14):
It tells me they're not in the right spot. They're
just not playing good defense. There's a lot of problems here,
Listen to. The pitching staff has been terrible on two
strike counts. Is that the catcher's fault is generally the
problem of execution rather than selection.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
You know, go around the horn.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
You have a logjam of outfielders where some of these
young players are not progressing the way that they should
because no one's guaranteed an everyday spot in the lineup.
Jordan Walker makes the team out of spring training and
after a blink and I he's back in the minor
leagues where he's now struggling. So all these things are
coming to a confluence here with the Cardinals, and I
don't know why they were so public about saying, you
(04:56):
know what the problem is, Wilson Contraras, and I know
John Mosela came out of his way to say, listen,
we're not blaming him, but that's the message you gave people.
You singled out the one move that you're making. You
essentially announced first they said he's gonna play the outfield.
A couple of days later is not, actually, we misspoke,
He's not gonna play the outfield. They have too many
outfielders as it is, So I don't like that the
(05:16):
fact that listen, if you're not happy with the job
he's doing behind the plate. Okay, fine, you don't have
to announce it to the world that he's no longer
catching after essentially, you know, twenty three games behind the plate.
I don't think it's fair to the player. I don't
think it's fair to the rest of the team. So,
as you mentioned, Joe, I'm sure there's a lot of
things going on here. Let's not forget it's not just
(05:39):
that you know, Yady Molina is gone, Mike Maddocks, a
pitching coach is gone.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
They've got a new pitching coach.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
And you think about they had a nexus of Mike Schilt,
Yady Molina, Mike Maddox, a lot of experience there. All
those now have turned over. It's not the same run
prevention team. I think they'll figure it out, but they're
in danger of burying themselves this early in the season.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, just back to something you said earlier about Wilson
and I guess he only caught seventy some games last
year when we were there, Borse and I. My thing
with him was to never have him catch more than
three games in a row. A couple of times. I
think in August I went four times in a row
just because he was so valuable his ability to both
stop a running game hit and again, I mean I
(06:26):
know this A lot of this is analytically driven for me,
because even back then, we got a lot of pressure,
you know, regarding him his receiving ability, and again based
on metrics and framing and all these different numbers that
are now available to us. There's a lot of people
that did not like him analytically even at that time.
Borsy could talk about this more specifically, but we worked
(06:47):
very hard to bring him up to speed. And the
thing about Wilson to me that I was really impressed
with his work ethic and his prep work. I can't
even say it got better. It was always very good.
He just got to understand a position better as we
went through this problem for several years with him. Yeah,
there's there's definitely some kind of a power struggle going
(07:09):
on there. Somebody is attempting to become the next Yati
somehow in order to take charge of this pitching and
pitching staff and and how we're going to do this.
But you'll get back in this right here, Borzy, Mike
BORZELI going to talk to to me does this better
than anybody in baseball I've I've referenced it in the
past when we won some big series with the Cubs
(07:31):
that the other team got borzelloed. He has a method
that he applies that's unique to himself. It's analytically driven
in his own cocktail. Nobody else does it like him
because the way he breaks it down, the way he
presents it to the catcher and the pitchers is unique.
And then furthermore, in game, he has the ability to
(07:52):
relay information and stuff to the catcher real time that
I think I've sawt I mean, i've he said standing
next time we'll be talking about it, and I saw
it happen. Last point, I think maybe regarding that the
pitch clock possibly has actually permitted or decreased the amount
of time that you could lend to making decisions or
(08:13):
relay information. And I do to what extent that may
be impactful with this too, and why you have to
give it more time As a catcher in this situation
is understanding the staff and how we're prepping and how
we're trying to do things. All these things are underconnected.
Last point, it is May night, brother, it is May night.
So to me, you got to be careful with the
(08:34):
signals you're putting out there right now because it could
be devastating during the course of the year.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, good point, and listen, now, the bulk of the
catching is going to Andrew Kisner, really good receiver.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
He's not going to hit. He is not going to hit.
That's fine if you want to live with that. You
think you have offense elsewhere. But remember, if you're dh
In Contreras, now you're taking it bats away from Nolan Gorman,
and that's another young hitter is off to a good start.
Then you're disrupting his development. So there's a lot of
problems here. I think with roster construction and use of players.
(09:09):
What I would have done, I would have not made
this thing public. There's no reason to announce Wilson Contreras
can't catch. It's essentially what they did. They've just totally
ruined his trade value. He's got no trade clause anyway.
I would have had him catch the same two starters.
You know, he's if two or three start behind the plate,
a weak guy. Instead of working with the entire staff,
(09:29):
have him worked with two starters, match him up, you know,
make his job a little bit easier as he gets
indoctrinated into whatever complicated system the Cardinals have. But yeah,
I didn't like that they played this out so publicly.
We'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
But listen, you tease, and you did a very good
job of this.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Joe teasing our guests coming up, Mike borzel I've actually
you have as well, of course, but I've seen him
do his work between innings, sitting down with Wilson Contreras.
Here's the next three hitters coming up throughout a game.
What adjustments we need to make, what's working, what's not working.
Here's what we're gonna work on next inning. It's uh,
you know, the Cubs were ahead of the curve with
(10:06):
Borsello when it comes to game planning. In game planning
as you have it. So let's talk to Mike Borsello.
We'll bring them on right after this.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Welcome back to the Book of Joke podcast and say
hello to Mike Borzello. How you doing, Mike good?
Speaker 4 (10:32):
How are you? Tom?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I am well.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Listen, let me start with something Joe brought up, and
that's these these metrics and saber metric numbers that a
lot of teams put a lot of faith in when
it comes to catchers, framing, blocking, throwing, what have you?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
How reliable have you found.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Those numbers to be in grading out a catcher's abilities.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Well, I mean, it's obviously debatable when you talk to
the analytics department, it's there. It's heavy receiving, right, It's
it's receiving one. The rest of it falls probably evenly
at number two. So that's been an adjustment in the
(11:17):
game where, you know, not everyone agrees with that. I
mean a lot of people agree that game calling is
the most important thing, that managing a staff is more important.
That you can suffer on the receiving side as long
as as that's going well. Giving up the throwing in
(11:38):
the blocking and selling out for receiving is another debate.
You know, in modern baseball we see more balls go
to the backstop on a nightly basis with catchers on
one knee that are you know, basically selling out to
to the bottom of the zone receiving. So I want
(11:59):
every I want to catcher that's well rounded. I believe
in the receiver being important, but I also believe in
blocking and throwing and first and foremost calling the game
and handling your pitching staff. That comes first.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So obviously borzy.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
You know Wilson Ntra as well, You've worked with him
for years on a daily basis. First of all, your
reaction when you read and heard about the Cardinals essentially
turning him into a DH and no longer their regular catcher.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Yeah, obviously it's surprising when you commit to a guy
for that type of money and for that length of time.
I think everyone was shocked. But I don't know the
inside story on that. I don't know what's going on.
I can't speak to their decision, but of course I
(12:55):
was surprised. I mean, having Wilson for for what five
six years in Chicago, I never had any issues with
him as far as you know, prepping and calling a game,
but we did it in a system, a different system,
(13:17):
So I again, I can't speak to what they're going through.
They have obviously a different way of doing things than
we did. But surprised, Yeah, shocked so early in the season,
you know, not even what is it? Thirty games in
and you're making a pretty big decision.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Part of that with where's he brought up? Early on,
I was trying to list what are the tools now
that groups are looking for regarding a catching position. I
mean back in the day, it was pretty much catching.
Catch was described as catching and defense and throwing. Then
you wanted to hit for some power and possibly hitting.
The last thing you looked for was speed. Among the
(14:00):
five tools and no. Number one right now, I agree framing.
I mean, it's not even receiving or catching, it's framing.
And like Michael talked about there at the bottom of
the zone, up and doing the glove movement all the
time and from one knee and listen. I can't dispute
because I was watching the other day. I was watching.
I can't remember who the catcher was, Minnesota's catcher, I think,
(14:21):
and he was getting a lot of calls, a lot
of calls, and apparently he's got a great reputation the
way he was pulling the ball back into the zone,
which of course is going to be somewhat mitigated I think,
or if there's an actual electronics strike zone. But point
is number one right now is framing. So when a kid,
when a Scott goes out, and now when you're listing
(14:41):
the five tools for a catcher, it's completely different, is
it framing than for me? Game planning and then hit
hit with power, blocking like Mike, He's talked about there
is really not even that important anymore to these guys.
And then throwing. You would think this year, with the
different rules and the fact that there should be an
ascension in base dealing and base running, it's like a
(15:03):
guy how that controls to me, could totally stop that
particular part of the game and benefit your defense and
the thoughts put in the other team's heads. But I
think throwing has really gone to the bottom of the
last one I have was to lead. You know, when
we used to look for catchers as a scout, you
wanted leadership, callity, he wanted to assertive, this aggressiveness. You
wanted to see those those kind of attributes from the player.
(15:26):
And I'm not saying that the catchers today aren't unable
to do that, but the way the game is brought
to the clubhouse now from you know, analytics and whatever,
leading is not necessarily as important as it had been.
And I believe it is, but I'm just saying I
don't think it's listed as being as important or thought
of as being as important. So the five tools as
(15:47):
we knew them, every position, every the baseball players have
five tools, and you would list them according to what
was more pertinent regarding the position they played. So right now,
you could say defense for a catcher, but it's different.
It's framing. And then Mike, Mike said game planning, and
then everything works off of that because defense to me
would have been blocking. Defense to me would have been throwing.
(16:08):
But I think there's been less of an emphasis there
and more on just trying to catch a strike and
making sure that you have the right pitch called on
your wristband.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Borsey again, getting back to Wilson, give me your own
and you know him as well, if not better than anybody,
your own scouting report on what he does well, what
he still needs to work on. More importantly, the relationship
working with pitchers.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Well, I mean my relationship with Wilson goes back to
the off season of twenty fifteen. We had just gotten
beat by the Mats four straight in the NLCS, and
THEO sent me to Arizona to go meet this kid
(16:57):
who is down there plane in the Fall League, and
he wanted a report on him. He wanted me to
see Wilson Contreras. So I flew in, never went home,
flew from from Chicago to to Arizona, and I met
with Wilson and we went through some stuff and we spoke,
and I found a passion for the game in him
(17:20):
that was undeniable. I mean, he loves baseball, he loves
to play, he loves to compete, and THEO asked me
for for a report on him after I left. Unfortunately,
I really didn't get to see him play. The first
game I went to see him play in the Fall League,
he pulled a hamstring. So we spent the week going
over how we do things at the big league level.
(17:44):
We were we went over reports, we went over video,
we we broke down hitters. I wanted to introduce him to,
you know, the major league style of prep work, and
especially our prep work and our system with the Cubs,
and he was all in. So THEO asked me, what
do you got, and I said, let's do it, britt,
(18:06):
Let's what are we waiting on. This guy's our guy, like,
let's go. He's all in. It'll work. We'll make it work.
This guy's going to be a player. And the next
year he shows up, I believe. In June we called
him up in the middle of a you know, the
twenty sixteen season, we called up a catcher. I mean,
(18:28):
when does that ever happen a team that's, you know,
pick to win the World Series. And we brought up
Wilson Contreras in the middle of the season, you know,
to to have a three headed monster with David Ross
Miguel Montero and Wilson Contreras, and Wilson got the bulk
of the playing time. Obviously Rossy caught John Lester and
(18:50):
Maggie was catching Arietta. But ultimately Wilson showed up and
was was getting the bulk of the time, and we
made it work. He jumped right in. He we had
already spoken about how we do things and the rest
is history, right, I mean, we we won the World Series.
(19:12):
I think you spoke earlier about how Wilson Contrera started
Game seven in the World Series and game six If
you don't, you know, people forget he caught Arieta in
Game six. So I mean we had we had a
crash course in sixteen with him and uh and he
(19:32):
fit in seamlessly, to be honest, I mean it it
just worked and he and he was a big piece
to our championship run.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, there was a great story about Wilson was not
signed as a catcher.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
I think he was an infielder.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yeah, and as you mentioned, he's got such a passion
for the game.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
It was one day.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
He saw some catchers equipment lying around, wanted to warm
up pitchers, just to keep himself busy, and lo and behold,
he turned himself into a catcher. It's that the position
suits him really well because he's an active guy. We
know he's got a very strong arm. I think he
likes being a leader behind the plate. I'm not sure
what Saint Louis missed here, because they were in it
(20:14):
for Sean Murphy in a trade from Oakland, decided to
pass Joe. You mentioned Christian Vasquez, the catcher with the
Minnesota Twins, is to me, really fit the Saint Louis
style of kind of emphasizing defense over bat first behind
the plate. They went in a really different direction here
(20:34):
and they don't like where they went. Obviously a very
quick way into a five year contract. And I don't
think I don't think that's on Wilson Contreres. I think
that's more on the Cardinals. So, Borzy, what do you think,
what do you think the future is for Wilson?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
You think he adapts to this. Do you think he
has to find another place?
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Is he comfortable, you know, not catching, because we saw
some quotes from him in Chicago where in his mind
he's still a catcher.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Yeah, no, I think he he is a catcher. That's
one hundred percent the truth. I mean, this guy has
to be behind the plate. We spoke about the position
changing over the last four or five years and the
focus being on framing and receiving. And you know, Wilson's
(21:25):
elite strengths are his throwing arm and his ability to block.
So if you don't value that, then you don't value
Wilson contraras. I mean, that is where he excels. He's
at the top of the list of all catchers when
it comes to throwing. And I'm not even talking about
throwing people out. I'm talking about deterring the running game
(21:49):
just because of his arm. People don't run the game.
The running game gets shut down before the series even
starts because they know he can throw. So it's not
always about the numbers. It's also the back picks where
he keeps a guy close to first, the leads get shorter.
There are so many things that his game does to
(22:13):
make the other team change their style, and those things
are not really quantifiable. At times, you know, you can't
really you can't really see the value he does bring
when it comes to stuff like that. The blocking, I mean,
Wilson contraras is as good a blocker as there is
(22:34):
in the game. I mean, but if you put him
on one knee and we don't value that, then there
goes another one of his strengths. So again, it's all
about what the organization looks at, how they look at
the position, what they value. If it's solely or ninety
(22:55):
percent about framing, and you're willing to sacrifice the other
parts of the game, then yes, Wilson's Wilson's value isn't
going to be quite as high. It's just not. But
as far as being a catcher, Wilson is a is
A is a catcher. Wilson has succeeded at the big
(23:16):
league level, has played in important games, has won a championship,
has played in the All Star Game, has let's not
forget this guy caught John Lester, John Lackey, Jake Arietta,
Kyle Hendritz, Cole Hamble's. I mean, I can go on
and on and we never had any issues. Again, I'm
(23:40):
not going to speak for the Cardinals. I don't know
what's going on there and I don't want to speak
for them at all. And obviously they have their reasons
and I respect that. But we didn't have any of
those issues in Chicago with those pitchers that I mentioned,
And those are veteran guys, tough guys that, as you know,
(24:00):
can be tough on it on a young catcher, and
it worked. It worked for us.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
It is just about work. Point on that. I mean,
Wilson always has accepted constructive criticism. Well, so, I mean
how he reacted to all of this from what I saw,
what I read some voices, voiceovers that he gave doesn't
surprise me. I know he's probably he was impacted. He
was affected by all this. It hurt, there's no question.
(24:29):
But my moments with him has been that that he
does accept constructive criticism. Well, yes, he does want to
get better. He started out as not being a catcher,
so by no means as he thinks he knows everything.
And like boys just said, listen, when you catch Johnny
Lester and John Lackey, especially those two dudes, my goodness,
(24:51):
you have to have some thick skin. Brother, it is tough.
And on top of that, Johnny Lester really not only
survived but got better and proliferated with it comes because
I you know, after David left the with Wilson did
behind the plate, because you had to stop the running game.
You had to be a determined somehow. And we worked
(25:14):
this little thing with the triangle with Wilson, Rizzo and
Johnny when he pitched. It really helped settle Johnny's mind
every time he pitched. So there's all these different things
that his ability to do with tools do and again
right now, it just seems as though one is being
It really comes down to framing. I think game planning.
(25:37):
If that is the case, that could easily be mitigated
just by science coming from the bench. So to me,
it sounds like somebody just doesn't like the ways receiving pitches.
And it sounds to me as though, I mean, I
know him, he'll take that, he'll get better with it,
he'll make the adjustments. But he has caught some really
difficult pitchers to catch in some very good ones.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
We're going to take a quick break when we get back.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I want to ask Mike Borzello our catching expert here
about the state of catching in the major leagues right now?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Are we at a tipping point?
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Back?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Right after this.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts and Borzia.
I mentioned the state of catching because I think in
this stolen based environment we have now, maybe there should
be and will be an emphasis again on his throwing
arms for catchers and defending the running game from behind
the plate. Let's face it, in the analytical era, you know,
taking chances on the basis was frowned upon, and I
(26:42):
think we're we've opened up the game a little bit.
It's more exciting. And I look around the game now
and I see some young catchers like Attleie Rushman, Gabriel
Moreno Logan o'happy is injured right now. It's really impressive
in a short time with the Angels. Sean Murphy, of course,
what he's doing with the Braves is just MVP level
Cape at Ruiz with the with the Nationals, and of
(27:04):
course Will Smith is still young but a young veteran
with the Dodgers. So give me your take on catching
now and maybe what's being emphasized. I know you mentioned
the one knee, which I don't mind, but I hate
to see teams prioritize framing low pitches with runners in
scoring position. They're costing themselves runs and bases. So I
(27:29):
know that's a lot to take on. But as you
look at catching around the game, how do you see
it evolving this year?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (27:35):
I mean, this is one of the biggest debate you
can find in baseball is how the catching position has
changed over the last three or four years, five years.
The one knee catching, the one knee catching with a
(27:56):
man on third, Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, In
my opinion, one knee catching's fine. One knee catching has
been going on for one hundred and fifty years when
there's nobody on base and less than two strikes. It's
always been around. It's not something new. A lot of
(28:17):
guys had trouble catching or receiving nasty stuff, so they
cleared their left knee by putting it on the ground.
So that's been going on for years. What's changed is
that now we're doing it with a runner on third.
Now we're doing it with runners on second and third
in a tie game, and we're still selling out to
(28:43):
receiving a ball at the bottom of the zone, and
we're we're not as concerned with blocking, and it's something
I don't really understand and I don't agree with. I'm
all for receiving on one knee whenever you can, when
it's nobody on base, when it's less than two strikes. Sure,
(29:05):
if you have an elite athlete behind the plate, like
a JT. Real Muto who can catch on one knee
and still throw out of it and still block out
of it, well then that's a unique skill set. Sure,
I'm fine with that as well. But there are not
many JT. Real Muto's out there.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, borsy, let me just jump in there, because I
think that's an important point. It's a system of catching
that I think not everybody can do well. Like in theory, yes,
it works, but I see a lot, especially some of
these bigger catchers, they just can't move as well as
someone like JT. Who was a high school shortstop and
(29:45):
a quarterback and a great athlete. He's exceptional. But having
a one size fits all for different catchers, I don't
get it. I've seen it. I'm sure you've seen it too.
It must drive you crazy. Where that catcher on one
knee with a runner on third base is limited to
what he can cover only by his reach. In other words,
he can't shift his body, especially you know, if it's
(30:07):
across his body on the arm side, it just can't
cover enough to block a ball to prevent a run.
And I don't know why teams aren't valuing that.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
It's it's they go off right big bucket sample sizes
they need. They they believe that you don't alter your
game based on the situation. That that's what we're doing.
That that's how the analytics departments think. I understand that
they go off of large sample sizes, so they don't
(30:41):
look at the one run in the moment the way
we do. They look at it as a small sample.
So for them, it's it's a whole different way of
looking at the game. I agree with you, Tom, it's
it drives me nuts when you have a catcher on
one knee with a man on third and a tie game,
(31:05):
and he's the catcher calls a two strike slider that
he knows is probably going to be in the dirt
and he has no ability to block it to his right,
and the ball ends up at the backstop and the
game ends. And we saw it earlier this year. I
believe we've seen a game end on a ball in
(31:25):
the dirt go to the backstop. Guy was on one knee.
He tried to flag it with a backhand and he
missed it. I mean, it's really there's so many other
variables to it as well, because we don't talk about
the fact that that pitcher who threw that pitch that
ended up in the backstop, at the backstop and now
(31:46):
that run scores the next time out. He's either not
as apt to bounce that slider, which he should do
to this hitter to get him to swing and miss.
So now he's not going to bounce that slider because
he doesn't want the same result that happened last week.
Or he's not gonna throw that slider, and he's gonna
(32:06):
throw a fastball, which is not the right pitch to throw,
but because of his fear of giving up that run
at third, because the catcher is not going to block
the ball. All these little things that happen that no
one really discusses. It's a domino effect of how it
affects the mindset of a pitcher and a catcher. I
(32:28):
mean catchers at times when they don't think they can
block a pitch, especially at the end of their careers
when they get older, they don't call that pitch. They
go to the pitch they can catch. And that is
what's happening here as well. That I just think there's
so many other discussions that can be had about this
(32:51):
stuff that haven't been had. You know, there's just so
many different things that go into this position and uh yeah,
this one knee with this one nie set, with runners
in scoring position and allowing balls to get past you
(33:11):
and we're calling them wild pitches is to me, is
just not right.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I just wrote it down confidence of the pitcher throwing
a pitch in that situation, and over a period of time,
you're right, he's just not going to bear it anymore.
And you spoke to the point of the large sample size.
And that's the one thing that as all that's been
that's been most bothersome to me as a manager using
analytics during the game is the fact that we're always
(33:39):
just going off of a large sample size. And I'm
here to say, and I've asked every organization I've been
with to build me a matrix with trends involved in
not just large sample size, because things change from week
to week. Things change from month to month, things change,
players change over the course of time. But we're always
facing our decision making on this large number because eventually, yeah,
(34:02):
over time it possibly well, it's going to come back.
But losing that one game or those two games, are
that five game losing street that can bury you in
a particular month or in a week. You could may
have been avoidable had we just followed maybe a little
bit different plan based on guys that are hot right now,
Guys that are not hot right now, guys that are
(34:24):
not themselves, guys that are really not very good but
all of a sudden are and how do we treat
them under those circumstances. I know, Bores, when he's doing
his things, he's going to identify, specifically outside of the
large sample sites, who do we have to be careful
with right now? And maybe the dude on the other
side that is the is the guy we're going to
go after him. He is all screwed up right now,
(34:44):
he's not seeing the ball. Well, my pitcher versus him,
my stuff really matches up well right now, Let's attack him,
and let's be careful with somebody else, just based on
the last week or ten days, and that's the part
of this that always frustrated me managing wise. I want,
I want, I want somebody to tell me, show me, Trent,
show me what's going on right now, tell me this
(35:06):
large sample size, give it to me. I want it, Yes,
but what's happening right now? And make our adjustments according
to that, Ie, run around third base, tie score on
the road? Can I bury this slider or not? Do
I have confidence that my catcher has the technique in
the ability to block this pitch that I need to make.
Those are the kind of thoughts that need to be
(35:26):
a nurtured more I think.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
I agree, Joe. I agree. I also think game state matters, right.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeap, of course, yeah, I mean, Mike, this has just
been fascinating, fascinating insights into not just Wilson Contreras, but
catching and what goes on behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
We do have one more job for.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
You before we go here, though, and it's easy, you
believe me. We call it a reading from the Book
of Joe. We ask our guests to pick a number
between one and three hundred and sixty eight, and we'll
turn to that page in our book, the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
So you're at bet. Mike Borzello, it's your call.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
You pick a number, any number between one and three
sixty eight.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
All right, I'll pick my cub number, number fifty.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Eight, number fifty eight. Why was that your cub number?
Speaker 4 (36:17):
By the way, I don't know. They issued it to
me and it stuck. It stuck.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Otis Tomothy Tomothy gave it to him.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Okay, this is one of Joe's favorite games. Actually, Game
four National League Championship Series. Remember this one, Mike, Oh yeah,
Cubs are losing five to two on the road against
the Giants.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
In the ninth inning.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
They were three outs away from having to play a
winner take all Game five against San Francisco, and it's
ace Johnny Quato, who had dominated them in Game one
with no walks and ten punchouts over eight innings. We
beat them one nothing in Game one with Hobby baya
Is hitting a home right into the wind in the
basket left field men says, I did not want to
see Cueto again. That's all I could think about Game four.
(37:04):
And these Giants have been battle tested, they had won
three in the past six World Series. We don't want
to mess with a Game five with these guys, right,
there ninth inning, down three, Quato looming. Any decision I'm
making has nothing to do with analytics. It has everything
to do with what I'm feeling and seeing in the moment.
(37:26):
And boy, that was one of the great postseason rallies
you will ever see. Bruce Bochi kept madly changing relief pitchers.
Joe Madden had an answer for all of them. Hobby
bay As I think was it Hobby Bya's two strike
hit winds up putting you into the lead, and.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
You move on and avoided seeing Johnny Equato. Remember that one,
Mike Borzello.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
I do remember that one vividly. And I also used
that game as an example of putting the ball in
play matters, because Hobby hit that seventy mile an hour
grounder up the middle, and Wilson comes up and does
the exact same thing. We had two seeing eye ground
(38:10):
balls that helped us win that game, I mean, because
we did not want to faith Quato again.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
That's exactly right, right.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Wilson contreres our guy is the two runs single. He
was a pinch hitter for the pinch hitter.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
That's correct. For that's correct. It went from did it
go from Russell Addison to Coglin, back to Controerse. I
think that's up when based on what they were doing.
And yeah, he just poked it back up the middle.
And then Hobby, I mean that's that's the point. I mean,
the small sample size, what do you need in the moment,
And and you have to have this ability to downshift.
(38:47):
You got to down shift, you got to move the ball,
you got to put it in play. Can always be
about the ball in the gap or over the wall.
So our guys did a great job. And like like
you just read in the book right there, I did
not want to see Quato again. He was that good.
And to me, that was the game that won the
World Series for us.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
That is just amazing, Mike, that somehow you brought this
back to where we started.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, right, chick it out of that. That so good.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
This has been a blast mic, really interesting stuff. You're
the best. We appreciate all your time.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
Of course, thanks for having me, guys.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
And before you leave, Boors, I just I want to
say something because I mean this sincerely. Uh you know,
to me, Bors is like the first guy you want
to hire on a coaching staff, No, no doubt. If
you're if you're searching or seeking to put your major
league staff together. His talents and his abilities are are
better than anybody else I've been with in this particular position.
(39:49):
I don't think that that's well known enough, So I
just just for the sake of but I just want
to say it out loud because I've seen him as
a difference maker and then you've already heard it, not
afraid to give his opinion. I think in today's game,
in today's world in general, everybody wants agreeable agreeables on
their staff or with their group. I like those that
are a little bit of a contrarian at times, and
(40:12):
then after you've made your decision, let's go on and
move it in the right direction. So boys, he's going
to tell you what he's thinking. He's not going to
tell you what you want to hear. And to me,
that's the most valuable kind of coach you can have
on the staff. So Michael, Mike got up at six
o'clock in the morning in Sacra Meto today to be
with us, and so I appreciate a brother. And again,
you never.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
Disappoint oh anytime. Thanks Joe, I appreciate it, right man,
Thank you Mike.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Well, Joe, that was a fascinating discussion. I found it
really interesting when Mike talked about how much the catching
position has changed.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Just in the last three or four years. My goodness.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Yeah, I mean, and typically you heard in this conversation,
I thought he was outstanding. Typically that's what I get
every day. When you work with bors the every day,
that's what you get. So he's there's going to be
times he's gonna be a little rough because he's just
telling you what he thinks. He puts a lot of
time into this. He can be very emotional about his work,
(41:06):
but at the end of the day, it's really good
work and it and it does it holds up. I've
seen it hold up. It's that much faith or confidence
in his abilities. And to me, the fact that he's
not in a dugout somewhere right now really blows me away.
And not just I mean sometimes I you know, again,
he can't be difficult sometimes only because he's very opinionated.
And that's what you've got to get past. Because he's
(41:28):
that he's that solid and his and his his information
is really going to be that pertinent to the game.
And heck, if I ever got a job again. Ever,
he'd be one. He'd be the first guy, and Tim
Buss told be the second guy that I would hire.
I think that they are that good. Uh. They they're
difference makers. And I can't tell. I'm telling you, when
(41:48):
you hire coaches, you want guys that could really make
a difference. That they do something that nobody else, No
other coaches are capable of doing that you could possibly hire.
Bors's one, Bussy's another. They're just difference makers and and
and they're they're their skill set is unique. And I
guess and I'm going on and on about him, and
I'm just telling you he was that vital right down
(42:11):
to the last pitch in the World Series when he
knew Martinez could not hit a Leeftenant curveball and you
saw that chopper to third base to KB. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
And it's so important, you know this, Joe, to have
people on your staff who will challenge your way of thinking,
not just rubber stampish and agree with it.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I want that. I need that for me to be
good at what I do. I need that. And I
think if I have a sprint as a manager, as
the coaches that I do delegate responsibility, I don't want
to do your job. That's your job to do. I
got my job to do. And with guys like boards
on the staff, you know you just you hand it off.
You hand it off. He goes, he runs with it,
and I promise you it's going to be a great result.
(42:52):
A lot of time and work goes into it. It's
his own method. You've been borzelloed. I'm telling you it matters.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
All right, Joe, as an old catcher yourself, it's your
call here, you call the pitch to take us home.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
What do you got?
Speaker 3 (43:04):
Twain again? I had to go Twain. The two most
important days of your life were the day that you're born,
and that the day that you find out why. And
I think I found out that why was the fact
that I would meet Mike Borzello someday.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I love it. Can't go wrong with Mark, No, I
cannot see next time.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Joe, all right, buddy, nice job.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
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