Book of Joe: Arguing with Umpires

The Book of Joe Podcast with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon begins with Aaron Boone's epic interaction with umpire Laz Diaz.  Joe explains the emotion that leads to a manager blowing up on the field. Umpires have a tough job, but are the players making that job even harder?  Joe is 16th on the all-time list with 59 ejections in 19 years and we hear about some of the most memorable walks to the clubhouse.  Joe recalls his very first ejection, how he apologized after a few, and how he once was tossed by all four umps! 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Well,
welcome back to another episode of the Book of Joe
Podcasts with me, Tom Berducci and my buddy Joe Madden
and Joe. Today we're going to talk about one of

(00:25):
your favorite topics as any manager, umpires and umpiring, I
mean managers and umpires. It's like, I don't know, cats
and dogs, Wiley Coyote and the road Runner, Tom and Jerry.
You know, there's something that it's antagonistic and it's also
sometimes entertaining, and I bring it up of course, if

(00:47):
you saw Aaron Boone on Monday night against the Chicago
White Sox Las Diaz behind the plate and boy, that
was entertaining. You don't see a lot of those demonstrative
arguments anymore with umpires. But Aaron Boone went out there
late the game and just completely lost it. The irony
is it was a pitch that was well in the

(01:09):
strike zone that Laz Diaz called strike three on Anthony Volpi.
But by then Aaron had seen enough. Los Diaz, as
you know, Joe, he's got a big strike zone. The
ball off the plate, the outside of the plate. You know,
whether it's a ball off the plate, he's going to
call out a strike. You know, a lot of these
older rumpires still stick with their version of the strike
zone rather than the the radar influenced strike zone. So anyway,

(01:33):
Aaron Boone went out there and he basically mocked Lz Diaz.
He literally drew a line in the dirt on the
outside of the plate where he said that that's where
the ball crossed the plate, and then he mocked las
Diaz's strike three call. So I'm saying it's entertaining, but
I'm sure Loz didn't think it was entertaining. So, Joe,

(01:55):
I'm looking at Aaron Boone, I realize what's going on
with the Yankees here has not been fun to watch, right.
They're really scuffling for offense. In the last two games
for the Yankees, it was the first time in franchise
history that they lost two straight games nine in and
games by leaving twelve or more runners on base. I
think the total was twenty eight runners left on base.

(02:18):
So he's tired of looking at that, and we know
he has a short fuse and he lost it. So, Joe,
I don't know about you, but I hear this phrase.
You know, I'm gonna stand behind my players, and I
get that, but it gets to me a little tired too.
I mean a lot of times it's just the manager
blown off steam. So as someone Joe who's known to

(02:40):
blow off steam yourself, I'm not sure if you caught
the Aaron Boone rant. But what you take on the
manager losing it on an umpire.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Well, that's a great recap. He just went through right there.
You lose your mind. I mean, he gets to the
points sometimes where things build up to the point and
that it's that pressure relief valve. Just has to be
an argument with an umpire. That definitely is part of it,
and of course only does occur when you're going poorly
and at some point, Yeah, you just have to get

(03:09):
out there, defend your team, defend your brood. All that
stuff is a part of it. However it is it's
difficult as a manager. You are, you know, you're the
spokesperson for the team. Again, you are defending your brood.
Things aren't going well and you have to do something
to try to flip this thing around. Regards to the
empire specifically, quite frankly, there's some guys that you feel

(03:34):
better about their skills as opposed to others. It's just
like any other occupation. You're going to a game knowing
so and so is behind the play right right now,
it's pretty much behind the plate, the bases. Everything's fixable,
but you're always concerned about that and you're always worried
about the close call going against you. You just don't
have the same amount of confidence in certain people as

(03:55):
you do in others. It's just quite it's just being
honest in its strength, and so that that's part of it.
You could be ukually almost like set yourself up before
the game begins, knowing that this there's gonna be some
calls here you're not going to like so all that.
Some of it's like I guess, pre set predetermined, but
it's just true. And so that's that's a big part
of it, just how you feel about this umpire crew,

(04:17):
this umpire specifically, and it can set you up in advance.
The other part just the emotion passion that the game
is set up right now, primarily that managers have very
few avenues to really get upset about. Yeah, baals and
strikes still won. Check swings to me was the one
that would set me off. I think as much as

(04:37):
anything was the check swing. I don't even know how
many times they've got echecked over that. But you know,
the plays on the basis are no longer part of
that the emotion anymore. Although I did see the play
the other day in San Diego where I thought Gary
Sanchez made a great play at the play, but then
the call was reversed because they said he was blocking
the plate on a safety squeeze. Great play both sides,

(04:57):
great play offensively by the Dodgers, great play defensively by
the Padres. I thought Sanchez played it perfectly, but of
course with the manufactured rule, he's out, and that was
a little bit upsetting to me just to watch it.
But no emotion. I mean, you know, Bomel came out,
but what are you gonna argue about it. They didn't
even make that. They didn't reverse the call. Somebody in
New York did. So the way the game is set

(05:19):
up right now, a lot of the emotion is being
tapped out of it because you just has nothing to
argue about it anymore. So final point, if you, as
a manager need to be lowed baals and strikes, check
swings are about the last two vestages where you are
able to do something like that and get out there
and make a point.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, that's a great point about you know, there's not
many times now that manager can go out there or
should go out there and argue because of replay of
the bases. It basically takes the three bases out of
the equation when it comes to arguments. That's why the
rate at which Aaron Boone is getting thrown out of
games is shocking. Aaron Boone is getting thrown out once

(05:59):
every twenty five point six games in his major league
career as a manager, and this is without arguments essentially
on the basis at all, and he's getting thrown out
of games more frequently than any manager in the last
sixty years. It's actually the third highest rate all time.

(06:21):
Only ones higher than him were Frankie Fish and Paul
Richards whose nickname was Old Rent and Rave. I mean,
it's stunning to me, Joe that in today's game, as
you mentioned, basically you just can argue with the home
plate umpire that he's.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
Getting thrown out like this.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
And I again, I get the whole idea about defending
your players, but when it happens this often, I think
it loses its impact. It becomes more about Aaron Boone
than defending the players. So I don't know, Listen, he's
going to get suspended. It should be for this, you know, again,
mocking the umpire. It's one thing to argue, but I
think he went a little far as far as pushing

(06:58):
the envelope of suspension or not. And I wonder if
his recidibus history would come into play all as well.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
I know David Bell.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Had a situation either a year or two ago where
MLB brought him in and said, listen, just tie it
down a little bit.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
This is getting out of hand.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
You can't just lose it like this on ball strike
calls all the time. We all understand frustration, but I
think there's a point where it becomes too much, and
I think Aaron Boone is at the point where it's
too much.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
My first, I'm gonna defend Aaron in a sense that
this is a wonderful young man. I absolutely. I got
to know him a lot when he's a broadcaster and
coming to my offense, we had that great conversation. He's
a great listener. He looks you right in the eyeballs.
I know it's daddy. I know Bob really well and Obrett,
I mean, but this is a really first rate, solid,
very smart guy. So first of all, know that. Second

(07:44):
of all, he works for the Yankees, and the Yankees
are doing well. So when you're you know, in that
dugout and Yankee Stadium on a nightly basis, and your
team's not doing well and you spent all this money
and you're always part of it is you are. You
are the spokesperson for the organization. You just are twice
a day, minimal before the game, after the game, and
then of course any other like interviews that you may

(08:05):
have to participate in as you get to the ballpark.
That there's a lot of conversation constantly, and when you're
always having to play defense, and he's playing defense right now,
there's no offense, there's no you can't go out there
and blow your own horn about anything. It's all you're
playing defense. When you're constantly playing defense, it can wear
you down. I thought that came to my head in
my mind, and when I was with the Devil Rays

(08:26):
the first two years, I was always playing defense in
the postgame conversations and then you know, people, they start
questioning your abilities and you know all this stuff, and
a lot of it's just based on personnel or the
lack of it. It's just it's not the fact that
you are lacking anything as a manager. Sometimes the personnels
is not playing well or they're just not good enough.
But nevertheless, you start to defend, defend, defend, and that'll

(08:48):
wear you down. What he needs is a nice little
run here they do. Obviously that's an understatement, but he
had on some kind of a run here. He could
start playing offense again, I mean offensively post pre and
post game, where you can talk favorably about his group
and be something to crow about it. Yeah, I told
you we talked about this before. That's what he needs.

(09:09):
And until they win, it's not going to go away
because it's hard. It's hard as a manager to constantly
defend everything going on within your organization.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, that's a great point, especially in New York as
you know, where everything is amplified. It's a playing defense
can definitely wear on anybody managing in New York in
a tough situation.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
And that's where they're at.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
I mean, they are now zero in terms of run differential,
They're five and a half games out of the wildcard,
chasing Toronto with a couple of teams in front of them,
and the offense just has been stuck in neutral for
two two and a half months here. So a lot
going on, certainly for Aaron Boone, and I'm sure probably
made him feel better to get it out. And in

(09:49):
his defense, Los Diaz had a tough night. But I
say that again knowing that this is who he is
as an umpire. He's going to call Nike's had Los
Dias opening Day with Garrett Cole on the mound and
Las Dia has missed fifteen pitches. You know he's just
gonna call that pitch off the play to strike. The
Yankees won that game against the Giants, but they've seen it,
they know the reputation, and you know, as a manager, Joe,

(10:11):
you get a scouting report on umpires and you know
what you can get what you can't get. And then
that game in Chicago, there were thirteen calls that went
against the Yankees. There were three that went against the
White Sox. So I get where Aaron Boon is coming from.
It's just unusual for me to see a manager lose
it as often as he does. I mean, think about it,
he's getting thrown out of games more at a higher

(10:33):
rate than people like Earl Weaver, Billy Martin, Leo du Rocher.
So it's in today's game. It's odd to see, but understandable,
I guess in terms of what you just pointed out,
the heat coming down on him and the frustration of
seeing his team leave guys on base.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Well, part of it you're talking about the apparently the
White Sox did a better job of pitching to the
heat map or the pitcher just had better command, because
these guys know everybody knows before the game begins where
an umpire is big and umpire is kind of like
two different umpires based on like right handed hitter, right
handed pitcher, right handed hitter, right handed pitcher, left handed hitter,

(11:10):
and vice versa. So it's almost like four different strike
zones that you have to understand, and when a catcher
really knows that in a pictures the command to pitch
to that, it could definitely work in your favorite That's
something that goes back, you know, with the Rays. I
think we started with the Rays years ago. It was
in a room memory phase where we had these like
like Amba's look like a little meba on a piece

(11:30):
of paper and wasn't highly specific, but he gave you
a pretty good idea where the guy was big and
where he was tight. So if you have like a
low ball pitcher pitching that day and this guy is
not giving anything down there, eh, you go into the
game just being concerned about it. And conversely, if a
high ball umpire, you got a guy with a nice
little ride and he's pitching at the top of the
zone a lot, you get you going to feel good

(11:51):
about this. And there's guys that are tight in, guys
that are tied out. But again, when you watch a game,
understand right on right, right on left, it's going to
be two different strike zones, and then left on left
and left on right two different strike zones. So you
got to you got to check all that out because
all these umpires they're they're human, they're they're all taught
the same thing, however they see things differently. The last point,

(12:12):
I mean, it's really where catching has gotten to the point.
We've talked about this recently, where catchers are pulling pitches.
It's not framing, they're pulling them. And I I watch it.
It's it's flagrant. I can't believe how flagrant it is.
Sometimes when a guy would absolutely you know, with that
elephant trunk, they start with the glove below and they
pull it right up to the to the zone I'm
still waiting. And I would defend any umpire that would

(12:33):
tell a catcher listen, either you stop that. I'm not
calling us writ I mean really, it's it's it's a
tough way to umpire. And I watch it, and when
I watch it, I see umpires really I think making
good calls. In spite of the fact that the guy's
moving his glove all over the place, I'd say, good job, umpire,
misterrow on Pire, that's really good stuff. So again, from

(12:53):
a perspective an umpire, an umpire is a group I
would have a meeting and say, listen, guys, stop pulling
pitches or you're not getting anything.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, I'm surprised they let some of these catchers get
away with how much they're pulling pictures, because it's not
a good look for the umpire I mentioned. Frankie Frisch
is a guy who thrown out just about as much,
if not more than Aaron Boone, A couple of great
stories about him.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
He got thrown out of one game when he.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Didn't like the field conditions, thought it was too wet
to continue playing. He walked out to argue with the
umpires holding an umbrella.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
See it, I like that.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
There was another time he got thrown out.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
He didn't like the call, he went out and argued,
and when he got his explanation, he pretended to faint
on the field.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
A couple of other ones for you, Earl Weaver, I mentioned,
it's amazing he was a great arguer of umpires.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
Now that was entertainment right there.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
He was thrown out of both ends of a double
header three times in his career, and my favorite is
an umpire once tried to explain a rule book interpretation
to Earl Weaver, and the umpire offered to show Earl
the rule book and Erl said that doesn't do me
any good, and the empire said why, He said, because

(14:09):
I don't read braille.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Listen, that's the stuff that we're missing. I mean, you know,
you can talk about analytics, you talk about everything else,
but subtracting so much emotion from the game. We are
and we're becoming everybody's pretty much the same cat anymore.
Every organization wants to be the same as the socialistic
version of baseball. So maybe they what Boonie did is

(14:35):
actually necessary or needed, just to break it up a
little bit, because like you're describing all those guys, I mean,
very entertaining, Billy Martin, very entertaining, Whitey very entertaining. I mean,
all these dudes are very entertaining. And I got to
know several of them and conversationally they were great. Jimmy Leland,
I love Jimmy Leland. How could you not love Jimmy?

(14:56):
How could you not love Don Zimmer. That's part of
it that the personality is being subtracted from the game
kind of, it's not being encouraged, it's not wanted anymore.
And these guys were just loaded with that stuff, and
it was entertaining to the fans, but also to the
to your team and even the other team. You get,
you get, You got some pretty good laughs in the dugout,

(15:18):
and you got some good laughs for coming from the
other dugout. All of it is what makes our game
so interesting and fun.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
Yeah, you mentioned Jimmy Leland.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
He used to wear spikes when he managed, and I
once asked him why he might have been pulling my leg.
Maybe not, but he said, I just want to go
out there and argue with the umpires.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
I don't want to loot to my feet.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
I believe it.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
And one quick story for you to entertaining umpire. How
about Lou Panela.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
He was great.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
I always had a game at the old Municipal Stadium
in Cleveland, and Lou loved to do things with his hat,
throw it, kick at whatever.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
It was kind of part of his act.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
And he went out there this day, a hot Sunday
afternoon in Cleveland, argued the call, went into his rant,
fired his hat into the ground, continued the argument. Then
turned around and he went to go kick his hat.
It wasn't there. The ball boy had picked it up. Yeah,
I done, Lou admonished the ball boy. He said, don't

(16:13):
ever touch my prop.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
I'll tell you, these guys are so And that's the thing.
I mean. I've worked with people that have worked with
Lou more closely and Lou and our friends, and I
really enjoy the guy. But I'm telling you, man, if
you ever heard the whole stories behind the different situations
that lou might might have been one of the funniest ever.
It's hysterical stuff. I'm still waiting for that book to

(16:37):
come out. To the movie about Lou Panel would be
absolutely entertaining. He is great, great baseball mind, great dude,
but stuff that he did was absolutely hysterical and hilarious.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Well, Joe, you're pretty entertaining to yourself, so we're gonna
take a quick break and we get back. I want
to hear Joe Madden's best stories about arguing with umpires.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
All right, Joe, you know, we.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
Have numbers for everything, including ejections. So I was looking
up your career tally. For your career ejections, you're actually
sixteenth on the all time list. You're actually tied with
Bob Melvin, so the next time he gets tossed, he's
gonna pass you. Fifty nine ejections in your nineteen years.

(17:33):
You're actually ahead of the curmudgeon Dick Williams, you're ahead
of Sparky Anderson fifty six, and you're ahead of Gene
Mark at fifty four. So you've done pretty good to
get in the top sixteen all time for ejections.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
Listen, I don't know if this was your most entertaining one.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
But you must have played hoops as a kid, because
there was that one with Joe West where you had
a great spin move trying to get out of his ground.
I don't even know what the argument was. Maybe it
was one of those check swing calls. But you're with
the Cubs, and man, you had some good footwork. Joe,
do you remember that one?

Speaker 2 (18:13):
I do? I mean, and that's really a football thing.
I remember, like seeing high school football films that running
down field and I was able to do that spind
thing to get out of a tackle. But yeah, that
was because they were thrown at hobby bias in that game,
and at that time, the Pirates had a really strong
reputation of throwing at people and not only inside but
up and inside. And I just had enough. So I'm

(18:35):
yelling at their dugout and I'm yelling at their dug out,
and finally that was enough. So I was had every
intention of going into their dugout. I was trying to
get over there, and I'm getting out of the dugout
and here comes Joe West like an absolute left tackle.
Great footworking because Joe was the football, but he kept
pushing me in front of me, and then KB came
up behind and grabbed me from behind. It you see
the pictures of KB looks like he's actually smiling or laughing.

(18:59):
But I was really upset because of the reputation they
had had and the fact that I thought that that
was happening that day. So I was literally actually trying
to get to the pirate. Doug got probably gotten the
crap beat out of me more than likely, But I
mean it, it was one of those things you just
you just had to do in the moment. It was
the right thing to do. Yes, Joe West was outstanding,

(19:20):
footwork was great, but KB had a really good hold
on me, and it kind of I think it eventually
settled me down. Now.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
I don't know if you remember this one. You probably do.
You were with Tampa Bay at the time. It was
against the White Sox. Ozzie Gain was the other manager,
and Ozzie actually got a call overturned at first base.
I think it was Gavin Floyd was covering first base
and there was some question whether he had controlled the
ball on the out at first base, and Ozzie came

(19:48):
out and argued actually won an argument, so the play
was overturned in his favor, and the notes from the
game said that you were out there so long, arguing
that actually all four umpires ejected you.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
You completed the cycle of ejections.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
In one play that was in was that in Chicago.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
I'm not sure exactly where it was.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, you know, you know what that was. That was
the play up the middle, and it was a throw
to first base and he was called out and then
the second base umpire overturned it from behind second base.
That's what happened. So once the calls made argument, I
think this is how it happened. And then before it

(20:31):
was all over, the second base it was like over
ninety feet away changes the call, and that was like
I was totally amazed by that and I could not
let I couldnt walk away from that at all. So
there was always you know, Prazinski stuff with the plate,
the ball in the dirt with Josh Paul I wasn't
the manager at that time, but also Prazinsky going between
second and third Again, Doug Ennings call gets overturned. I

(20:53):
think this was Dana Dumuthe and Joe West were combined
in this somehow, I think. But anyway, the call was
overturned by the umpire behind second base on a play
at first base, so that when I could not I
could not deal with at all. That was ridiculous. Where
the guy's like three feet away from the call, he's
wrong and the guy that's over one hundred feet away

(21:13):
is right. So that's pretty certain that that's what had
happened on that play.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Let me ask you this because I think we've heard
about this, and I know for a fact lou Panella
had done this. Are there times where you would go
out out there to fire up your team, like thinking
you're going to inspire or wake up whatever you want
to use is the terminology, But actually a calculated not
spur the moment reaction to a call, but saying, you

(21:39):
know what, I'm going to go out there.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
Our team needs something here, we need a spark.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah. Started in double A. I was managing in Midland
and I think the young part's name was Joe Burlson.
Before the game, he said, listen, I need to get
kicked out of this game. He says, ah, I said, no, listen.
If I come out there, I'll try to use the
right language. I'm not going to get personal. But the
moment I come out there and for the very first
close call, you need to throw me out. And sure enough,
there's a close play at third base. I jumped over

(22:03):
somebody to get right in front of Joe. I started
yelling at him, poom, he throws me out of the game.
I can't tell if we wanted or lost, but that's
the first time I think I intentionally did. The other
time was in Colorado in the major leagues. We were
playing in Colorado Devil Rays and my favorite Teddy Barrett's
I'm piring behind and Ted is a minister. Ted is
a minister. Ted actually offered to marry my daughter Sarah

(22:23):
when Sarah was getting married a couple of years ago,
several years ago. Actually. So I'm there and I'm out
of the mound, arguing, and Ted starts walking out to
the mountain. I start walking towards Ted. I said, Ted,
you got to throw me out of this game. He said, Joe,
I can't do that. I says, Ted, you got to
throw me out of this game. You absolutely have to.
So he looked at me again. He got this really
great he kind of pacifies you, and he's got this great

(22:46):
puppy dog kind of a look about him. So eventually
he tossed me out of the game, and I got
what I had wanted to get done. I said, I
got to yell at you a little bit. I did,
went back to the mound, change the pictures. After the game,
I'm on the team bus and who comes walking out
with ted So I get off the bus, walk up
to him, givehim a big old hug. I said, man,
I'm sorry, but thanks for what you did there. He
went on his way, and so did I.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Hey he's a big Teddy Bear, great guy.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
I love Teddy, Love Teddy.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
How about when usually there's a small fine if you
will attached to these injections, especially if you're really demonstrative.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
Uh, do you actually write the check or does it?

Speaker 2 (23:21):
Team? Yeah? Yeah, No, I mean it stopped. I mean
in the beginning, I think with the race, they helped
me a little bit, but eventually I didn't get any
help on my fines. I was paying on my own
fines and they kept getting a little bit bigger. But
you know, I wasn't gonna cry about it. I mean,
I was do what I was supposed to do. I
thought it was part of the job. But the last
couple of years in Chicago and with the Angels, I

(23:43):
didn't get I didn't get reimbursed from my my, my
fines for doing what I did. But you don't stop.
You just got to keep doing what you do. It's
the right It is really the right thing to do, honestly,
it is. It has It makes a difference when you
walk in the clubhouse after the game if you defended somebody,
justifiably defended somebody. Sometimes it can't be thet but it's

(24:04):
the right thing to do, and your players do appreciate it.
Your players do appreciate it. Just think about you as
a kid. I remember when my dad stuck up for
me one time when I think it was mister Lobots's
driving by and yells at me as I'm putting my
car in the garage, and my dad came storming out
of the garage started yelling at a really good friend,
mister Lobit's about getting on me as a kid, and
it made me feel good that my dad defended me.

(24:24):
So you know, there's there's that to it, and if
we all think about it and understand it, if you
slow it down a little, but yeah, it matters when
somebody very very important to you in your life, takes
your side in a dispute. I don't even know who's
right or wrong all the time, that's not even the point,
but it takes your side, and then maybe there's a
conversation afterwards that like, hey, listen, you were in the

(24:46):
wrong right there, But I did what I did only
because I had to defend you. But understand, use better
judgment next time, and that's that's cool. So but yes,
I defend their manager's right to do that, because it,
quite frankly, it makes a difference among the players.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
And Joe, give everybody an idea of language in these arguments,
and you don't have to give us verbatim quotations here.
But there is a line there, obviously with umpires what
you can say and not say and still remain in
the game.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
And we know if you get a little too personal,
you're gonna get wrong. You know that.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
But is it different among certain umpires that you can
get away with more or less in terms of the
language that you use.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
Well, you know, quite frankly, you argue differently with different
umpires too, just based on whether the competency level and
how you feel about them personally. It's just the truth
I mean, there are certain guys I won't argue with.
I'll stand in a dugout and I'll say to my
pitchy coach or my bench coach, I'm not gonna argue
with so and so tonight. I can't do it. The
guy's good due you know, he works his butt off.
Sometimes he's not right, but I can't. And then you

(25:49):
might get a more arrogant umpire that even the smallest
thing you're out there, you're running out there to argue
something just based on the personality possibly conflict with that.
So that does make a difference quite frankly. It does
language well. When I first started out in the minor leagues,
my first dejection was an Idaho false Idaho and the

(26:09):
plate normal marker got thrown out. And I always wondered
before that, how do I argue? How do you argue? What?
And what do you argue? And I'd find out real quickly,
you just do it. So that is part of it.
But if I really was too demonstrative and said things
that really I get done, I go into the clubhouse,
I say, wow, that was stupid. So the next day

(26:32):
we take the lineup card out. I would rush out
before the other manager would come out, I'd get to
the umpires and say, listen, I'm really sorry for the
language I used yesterday. I need to be better than that. However,
if I need to come back out again today, I'm
going to, but just want you to apologize for the
way I stayed at myself yesterday. And I would do that,
and I would if anything, it made me feel better.

(26:54):
So all these things are part of the game on
a daily basis. It's human nature, it's humanity, it's people,
and there's likes and dislikes. There's there's people that are
more confrontational others that are not, and you react accordingly.
It's just true. Young umpire, you might get into a
little bit more than an old established upire that's been

(27:14):
around that you know, it's just the way it is.
You actually prefer if something comes up that you don't
really know the umpire that well yet. And I got
to the point where I stopped taking the lineup card
out because they didn't want to get to know some
of these guys they were coming into the league, because
then it was easier to go argue with them as
opposed like the Jerry Lanes of the world. I can't
argue with Jerry. I could not argue with Jerry. He

(27:36):
just couldn't do it. I just liked him that much.
He's that good of a dude. Like I said, Teddy
is another one of those guys, and the list goes on,
but I could and listen. I like Joe West a lot.
I thought Joe West is one of the better on
parts have top three ever. But Joe and I would
just argue because we had to argue about things. But
I still believe he's one of the best I've ever

(27:56):
been around. And I always felt good when the umpart
of the game. There might be separate things that occurred
that Joe would do that would not. However, I thought,
you know, balls and strikes when he was in his
prime and before instant replay stuff, he was good on
the basis too, and I just and again he's good
for the game. Was nobody came the scene, but everybody

(28:17):
enjoyed watching Joe westno party game.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Yeah, And that was sort of the beauty of the
argument with Aaron Boone in Chicago was that Las Dia
is a little more old school. Obviously, he's a veteran umpire,
been around. Yeah, he gave it back to Aaron Boone.
That was kind of cool to see. It's been years,
I think, since I've seen actually the umpire and the
manager go at it back and forth. So, by the way,
real quick, Joe on the Yankees, give me your take

(28:41):
on them.

Speaker 3 (28:42):
I think they were in a lot of trouble.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
My rule of thumb generally is if you're any more
than one game per week left in the season out
of a playoff spot, you're in trouble. One picking up
one game a week is probably like the max, so
you can think, and the Yankees are getting to that point,
being five and a half out here with seven left.
So I just think this team bet on what they

(29:05):
call the back of the baseball card, that guys would
come around and reach their levels. But I know whether
it's Rizzo who's on the il now, the post concussion syndrome,
DJ Lemayhew who's not hitting velocity, John Carlos Stanton who
just cannot get on any kind of his usual streaks.
I just see this going in one direction. I don't
know how it's going to get much better over these

(29:28):
last seven weeks for the Yankees to make up that
much ground on a really good Toronto team.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
I would try to map it out exactly what you're
talking about. We have to make up one game a week.
When we did that with the Rays, we came back
from a ton of games on September one. I was
trying to figure out how many games a week do
we have to make up? And like you talked, that
we talked about before, that was just the demise of
the Red Sox combined with us playing pretty well. But yeah,
I think that's a great form of selling it to

(29:56):
your team. Listen, we got to make up one game week.
I think it's important to give your your group a
mental key or schematic. How are we going to do this?
And when you do that, it doesn't make it more
it makes it more possible in their mind's eye, and
I like that. The other thing is to consider, though,
even if it's one game, how many teams are in
front of you, How many teams are involved in this

(30:17):
When there's multiple teams, Man, it's so hard to leap
frog a bunch of teams as opposed to maybe just one,
which is what we had to do with the Raise.
So all this stuff is a part of it. But
I do agree with that. I like that formulation. But
again the Yankees, No, it's it's not gonna. I mean
we got Radon goes down, Radon goes down again, and

(30:38):
he's going to be down, and he wanted to pitch
what they're saying no, and who knows how if it's
actually a hamstring, there's no telling how long that's going
to take. Where Tess came back, you look great, obviously,
but nevertheless, I mean their team on the field, their
offensive part, that's just not gonna. You're not not going
to flip the switch there. They're playing, you know, with
a lot of guys that they did not expect to
be playing with right now. And you know, obviously, you

(30:59):
know a judge has to get out there as often
as you can. But I still think they're doing the
right thing bring him back slowly, because again, if they
just try to force him back in there after having
been out for a long time, they could have set
them up for another a different kind of an injury.
So I like that part of it. But yeah, it's
they have to almost be perfect. You have to be
almost like was there fifty games up? They have to
be like thirty five and fifteen goods something like that.

(31:22):
At least thirty and twenty good in order to get there.
But I think it's going to take something extraordinary, like
a thirty five and fifteen record over a fifty game
span in order to really get back where you want
to be.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
One of the things we love to talk about here
on the podcast, and Joe has been a master at
it at the major league level, is culture.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
And I know it. That word gets thrown around a lot.
It's a big buzzword, not.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Just in baseball, but in the business world as well,
and in Chicago. White Sox offer us a really good
Peatrie dishcase on culture and what happens when it doesn't work.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
We'll dive into that right after this.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Okay, Joe I talked about culture and the White Sox
and it was really brought to the forefront and a
story on ESPN and a guy you had with the Angels,
Keenan Middleton pointed out the fact that he said the
White Sox have allousy culture, the lack of leadership, Guys
sleeping in the bullpen, people not showing up for early
pitchers fielding practice and getting a pass, Guys not showing

(32:32):
up for meetings, getting a pass. Now the White Sox
pushed back on this, but clearly something is a miss
with a team that a lot of people thought had underachieved.
I never liked the White Sox. I didn't pick them
to win. I like Minnesota and Cleveland better than Chicago.
But that's beside the point. When you hear things like this, Joe,

(32:53):
when a player airs let's call it thirty laundry and
calls out and to me most directly the manager, but
especially the organization, that things aren't right in the clubhouse house.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
How did you respond to that? What did you think
of that?

Speaker 2 (33:07):
Well? Yeah, I mean, first of all, quite frankly, had
no business doing that. I don't think. I mean, this
is a guy that was on a minor league contract
coming into the season, and really, I mean, he's got
a great arm, he's been somewhat successful, and I don't
even know that that should be the prerequisite, however, coming
from him and to create or stirrup the hornetsness as

(33:27):
much as it has. I didn't like that at all,
quite frankly, So I'll just start with that.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, and let me point out, y'all just interrupt briefly
that Rick Hahon, the general manager, pointed out that a
week before Middleton was traded to the Yankees, they had
a conversation and according to Han, Middleton actually apologized for
his own professional unprofessional behavior and had been called out
by the manager Pedro Griffall. So they were blown away

(33:56):
that these accusations were coming from a guy who, according
to Rick Hahn, had apologized for his own unprofessional behavior.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah. I mean, when we start listening to every but
that's just the nature of our world right now. This
wasn't necessarily a social media situation. But everybody has a
voice right now, and it's a non vetted voice most
of the time. And somebody puts this out there, then
all of a sudden, everybody's got to start answering questions
for this. Of course they have not been good. Of

(34:22):
course there's probably something wrong. Of course, all of that
has to be true, no question, but to be exposed
in the way that it was by a relief picture
going from one team to the other, Because my concern
would be, like, when he goes to the next team,
what's that conversation going to be? Like? Listen, I like
the kid. He and I had great conversations. We used
to sit and talk all the time. He's very bright.

(34:43):
He's a bright kid, So that part, it's a little
bit surprised with all of that. And I would hope
and wish that that that gets settled somehow and everybody
learns from this, because it's not necessary. It's not necessary.
I do you have that kind of an issue, you
go talk to a rick On or the skipper or
whomever to go somewhere else, and eric like that. I
didn't like that number one, number two culture. Yeah, I

(35:04):
mean I've said it. We talked about it the other day.
I just haven't like the way they played. Even you know,
when I was still with the Eagles, there there was
a way that they didn't play. I mean we opened
up against them in Anaheim a couple years ago when
a show had that great game we beat Ce's hit
a bomb to right central, balling off Robert Head, Roberts
Head on a fly ball coming in. There was just

(35:27):
an unbridled way that they played. And I didn't see
like a lot of structure about the game and how
they played the game. A lot of great athletes, but
culturally there just didn't seem to be a method of operation.
Best way to describe it. You watch Baltimore right now Ruschman,
I saw him hit a kind of a base hit
to right center, not like to the wall whatever, but

(35:48):
this guy made it into a double. They run hard
every time from home to second base. That's part of
culture right there. That's culture. Just the way they go
about their business. You watch Hydher in the dugout, never
varies in his facial expression, good or bad, which I
think is the right way to do things. And that
really bleeds down to the rest of the group culture

(36:10):
just and again, just the way they play the game,
and they're they're never out of it. They just played
in a hard manner. And again, what's the conversation like
in the clubhouse? What is what are their meetings, How
are their meetings conducted, and how often do they have meetings,
and who's running the meetings and what's being set in
the meetings. All those things matter, But it really comes

(36:30):
down to how the players perceive the manager in the
tone that he sets and what the expectations are. And
then how you enforced and not enforced is not a
really good word. Did you monitor these expectations to make
sure that they're being adhered to on a daily basis
and that you have tough conversations to keep drawing it back,
drawing it back, drawing it back. This is what we

(36:52):
talked about in spring training. We can't get far away
from this. This is what we said we were going
to be. This is how we work. So we did
in the camp, and this is these are These are
our personal expectations, exclusive of everybody else else, which should
be the expectations that are necessary, not anybody else's. So
culture is big, and that's the thing with the White Sox.
I just didn't like. I didn't like the game that

(37:13):
they played. I thought it was too loose, and I
didn't see anything specifically they had. But they have great
talent and I'm sure they're going to be really good
in the very near future. But that's what I've seen
with them. So, yes, culture matters. People that make fun
of it. We mock what we don't understand. So if
you've never really had to build a culture within a
business or in a baseball team, in a clubhouse, in

(37:34):
your family, if you've never really done that before, it's
foreign to you, and you will. We always mock what
we don't understand.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Joe, let me ask you about this as it relates
to the manager's responsibility with culture. And this was brought
up by Rick Han and again pedrograph rookie manager. It's
his first major league job, first year obviously with the
White Sox, and Rick Han said, sort of in defense
of Pedro, it does take a manager a certain amount
of time to implement the culture that they want, and

(38:03):
he said, I know that Pedro wanted to sit back
and wait to see what culture developed in the clubhouse
before he put his fingerprints on it.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
That sounds a little passive to me. But you've been there,
you know it.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
You've taken over teams that had, let's face it, not
just a losing history, but kind of a losing way
about them. Give me a sense of your take when
you take over a team you're new of the team.
Does it take a long time to implement culture?

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yes and no. I mean you have to walk in
the door that first day specifically outlining whatever culture you
want to have there. I believe so it starts with
that in your team meeting, in your first address with
the group, you outline specifically what is important here, what
we're going to try to accomplish, and who we're going
to be and how we're going to be That what
are we going to emphasize. For me, it was like simple,

(38:58):
we're gonna run hard to first base, respect ninety feet.
And I thought, if you did that, then that's going
to permeate the position players throughout. And if they did that,
they're going to be paying more attention on defense, they're
going to work better at bats, they're going to do
everything to a higher level just by respecting that ninety feet.
And weirdly, I mean, I mean, I don't know if people
would agree with this or not, but the pitchers. All

(39:19):
they wanted pitchers to do was work on their defense,
holding runners, your move the first base, make sure that
you become proficient at defense, and do that more consistently
and not just in spring training. And stop working on
your defense. So those are the two ONTs I had,
and I thought from that everything else would take shape
or form from that. So I would do that. I

(39:39):
would I would create an outline and be very specific
about it. Nine equals eight with the Rays in two
thousand and eight, nine players playing nine innings hard eventure
is going to lead to us to be one of
the nine teams. Are eight teams in the playoffs, so
nine would equals eight and then I went into nine
more wins offensively, nine more wins defensively, nine more wins

(40:00):
from the pitching staff. These you know, you give them
specific thoughts to think about, and if you have that
on a daily basis, either to think about or be
brought brought back to that for me or some of
the coaching staff, or some visuals. I would post in
the locker room, this is who we are and this
is what we're trying to be. And then when it
comes to screamlining, yeah, once you get this out there,

(40:22):
then it's really about my lead bull meeting as an example,
where I would try to get the most influential players
within the team in a room and we would talk
about our policies. I refrained from using the word rules
too hard fast two set in stone. I want policy
that's a little bit more malleable, but nevertheless a guideline.
And we sit there with who I perceived to be
the most influential guys on the team, and we would

(40:44):
go through that and then by the time we got
like maybe eight or nine guys, and then when they
were done, I wanted them to carry the message to
the players. I didn't want to be dictating to the
players the rest of the group, exactly what we're going
to do on a daily basis. That's your clubhouse. You
come here every day. I want you guys to run this.
It only comes back to me if he gets dire,

(41:05):
if you can't agree on things, if it gets out
of hands, if we're getting away from this established culture,
and then it's time for me to interfere again. So yeah,
I'm trying to be specific. This is what I would do.
I mindfully did it when I walked in the door
in Tampa Bay only based on so many years of
running the minor leagues with the Angels. The things I'm

(41:26):
talking about now were the absolutes that I had held
and learned from other guys that I brought and I
tried to outline and define for myself an the Angel
minor league system. And then eventually I get to the Rays,
I walk in the door. I was able to go
on and on and on about these different things because
I believe this and I thought this is the right
way to do things. Getting to the Cubs somewhat easier

(41:47):
because worked really well with the Rays, I gained even
more confidence, and then with the Angel same thing. You know,
COVID hurt a little bit. We got off to a
great start my last year there, then eventually had a
little bit of a rough street. But all this stuff works,
but you have to be specific. You have to stay
with it. Every day matters, every day counts, and the

(42:09):
accountability worder factor is huge.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
You know, Joe, when you were going through that and
you're basically talking about empowering your players right and stepping
in when you need to step in, it reminded me
of that great episode we had with Max Weinberg, drummer
for the East Street Band, who talked about Bruce Springsteen
and the way it was set up.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
He called it a benevolent dictatorship.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
Right, that's right.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
I love that description.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
That's true, I mean, and that is true because you
have to you are in charge. The buck does stop there.
It's your Harry Truman. Absolutely you are. But at the
same time, for me, the less involved I needed to be,
the better this thing would run. So talk to Billy
Vivasi about this and he agreed with me. When you
walk in the door on a daily basis, I walk

(42:53):
in whatever two thirty three o'clock in the afternoon for
a seven o'clock game. If you walk in the door
and feel like you have nothing to do, you've done
a great job. If you walk in the door and
you feel like, I got to do this, I got
to do that, I got to do this, you have
not done a great job of setting this up, because
then you have not empowered the proper people. When you
empower the group, when things go poorly, that's when it

(43:14):
really pays off. When things go well, everybody's magnificent, there's
no concerns, everything flows. When things go poorly. If you
have not empowered the group, and it's been all about
you and your precepts and what you think is the
right thing the wrong thing to do, these folks scatter man,
they run, they jump off the ship very quickly because
they have not been given any responsibility in this whole thing.

(43:36):
And that's where this is my I've noticed this. I
don't think this is prevalent anymore. I think there's too
much control coming from top, and with that there's not
enough empowerment and trusting. You've hired people for a reason,
let them do their jobs. So that's a big part
of it. Also, for me, I think tried and true works,
I really do. I'm not a controlling guy at all.

(43:59):
When it comes to leadership. I know how to set
it up. Once it's set up, I wanted My job
is to, like I said, on a daily basis, make
sure that it's working properly, and if anybody needs my assistance,
I step in and of course I'll talk if they
come to me. Same thing, But to constantly interfere I
don't agree.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
With it, Joe.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
I want to bring this full circle and go back
to what we were talking about the relationship between managers
and umpires. And there may come a day and maybe
fairly soon or what we saw in Chicago with Boone
and las Diez going.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
At it doesn't happen anymore.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
If you're talking about a fully automated strike zone, I mean,
what's their left to argue?

Speaker 2 (44:38):
Right?

Speaker 1 (44:38):
We talked about how that's really gone away from the
bases because we have replay to settle quote unquote disputes.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
Now, listen, I don't think baseball is going.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
To immediately institute in a fully automatic strike zone. I
think they like the trials in the minor leagues, where
there is a challenge system. It can only be done
by the catcher, the batter or the pitcher, and you
get three challenges per game on a pitch. In other words,
it could be a three to two pitch off the
plate or a pitch like dj lemayhew took for called
strike three with a runner on third base less than

(45:08):
two outs.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Last he has called that a strike.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
The batter has in the minor leagues right now the
opportunity to say, I challenge that, and we go to
the Hawkeye system, just like you see in tennis.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
It's up on the jumbo tron.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
Everybody finds out in real time whether that was actually
in the strike zone or not, and the call is
either upheld or we play on and you know, you
reverse the call.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
So I'm just wondering what you think.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Joe, whether that it's sort of that hybrid system there,
or the replay challenge system is a good way to go,
or you talked about the human element of the game.
Are we going a little bit too far down the
road where we're taking the human element out of the game,
and you know, we have to get every call right
or close to it, and there's a cost to doing that.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah. I mean, the more technology, the less passion we
are emotion we have as a human being. We're talking
in an athletics sense right here. The more technology we've
permitted to the game, the less reason there is to
be emotional or passionate about something, because we'll just wait
and find out with the video replay indicates or with
the uh in this situation that the box and we'll

(46:19):
get that, we'll get that little ping yes or no,
and and eventually we're going to become moot. I mean,
we were just trying to make the situation where the
human being becomes a mood point and we're gonna with
artificial intelligence taking over, basically talking about that kind of
right here, where again a machine is going to tell
us right or wrong, and we're going to say we

(46:40):
trusted so much that it's accurate that that that we
we're going to step aside and just permit this to occur.
I don't like it. I don't like it at all. Again, Uh,
there's nothing again umpires. Yeah. I don't want a bad call.
I don't want a wrong call. But if there is
a wrong call, the ability to argue that wrong call

(47:00):
still makes our game somewhat more human and entertaining. And
I'm okay with that. I am I've talked to a
couple umpires about the potential for the automated strikes one
to come in, and part of that that's not spoken
about enough, I think is just the aesthetics of it,
the visuals where it's going to look like a ball

(47:20):
and it's going to be called the striker, it's going
to look like a striker, it's going to be called
the ball. Then all of a sudden you're going to
have that component to be dealt with. However, maybe that
I'm wrong with that too, because right now I thought
this year, with the clock and everything, there would be
more arguments when the time expires and there'd be an
argument about something like that, But that seems to have

(47:41):
not been a part of it. Also because again we
accept technology, we accept it blindly, and for me, quite frankly,
I think a lot of it has to do with gambling,
where there's so much gambling involved in our game right now,
there's a need for everything to be accurate based on
winning and losing a bet. So I think that's part
of it that nobody even considers enough, and I think
that's again part of the equation. So yes, I vote
for the human being, I vote for the heartbeat. I

(48:04):
think having the ability to overturn calls on the basis
should be enough. After that, the part about the umpires,
I like the idea and in half brand des bind
me once and I liked it. That little earbud should
be that to remind an umpire that that pitch was
a strike and not a ball, but that was a
ball and not a strike, so that the next time

(48:26):
he sees that pitch he might make an adjustment. So
I would not mind technology being utilized in that in
that regard to just validate or verify a call, not
all of them, just the ones that on occasion. I
like it from that perspective, where may be able to
adjust as mental visual strikes on. I think that would
be good. But to constantly constantly turn our life and

(48:47):
world over to machines and technology. The more we do that,
the less emotion we're gonna have about what we actually do.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
Wow, that's a great suggestion. I had not heard that before, Joe.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
I mean, we know the umpires get files after a
game that grade out every pitch a cord to the
laser guided system, So why not actually do that in
real time? You get a wrong answer on the test,
you get it right then and there, and you say, Okay,
I'm giving that pitch away a little bit too much.
I have to bring that strike zone in a little bit.

(49:18):
I've never heard that before. So good on the end
app to come.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Up with something. At least it's worth a discussion.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah, Ian's pretty sharp. We still have really good talks.
When I was there with the Cubs, and I can't
remember where I saw him when that became part of it,
but I've actually been in umpire's rooms talking about this.
Billy Miller took met his the umpire room and Cincinnati
a couple years ago. We talked about this, specifically about
the potential for the automated strike zone, and he pointed
out different things to me that I'd not thought about

(49:46):
to that point. So, yeah, it's an interesting topic. I
just don't like the idea that we constantly hand over
her humanity to machines. I just don't like that. Now
there's times, yeah, listen, when it comes to medicine, you know,
national defense, things like that. Yeah, I'm in. I'm in
where there's gonna be certain things that we miss that
we can't miss, or certain things that may expedite the

(50:06):
healing process or new inventions or thoughts. Absolutely, I'm all
about it. Bring it on, But we've been writing turnpapers
with it now that lack emotion, so that after the
turn paper has written, we got to sit there and
inject emotion into what we have written in order to
hand it in. All this stuff is concerning man and
I and I read about it, and I know that
there's a concern among a lot of academics everywhere, But

(50:31):
I'm just talking about our game right now. Be careful.
We just can't continually subtract the human element and expect
it to be as entertaining and as fun because as
that goes the fund goes away too. We're constantly chiseling
away at the fun element of our game also, and
that bothers me.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
Yeah, that's well said.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
And I think that we're talking about faith and technology
and sometimes just blind faith. We always assume that if
it's new, it's if it's high tech, it's better without
stopping to think about the human element.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
And I think it's it's also related.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
It's a generational thing, you know that, Joe, Those who
grew up with a lot of technology aren't really questioning
the human cost of it.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Because this is what they know and this is what
they trust. It's dangerous.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
And technology is great, don't get me wrong, but it's
dangerous to accept it on blind faith that it's always
going to be pushing in a positive direction, because again,
there is a cost.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
I'm with you, man, and that's my concern. I had
the T shirt a couple years ago, don't forget the heartbeat,
and that was a post. That was my o to
the twenty sixteen World Series where you know, we have
that little rain de lay, Jason Heyward has the discussion
in the clubhouse and all of a sudden we come
out like the bunch of wild men and go off

(51:46):
and we win that game. All human, that was all
heart that was all real. That's how it's supposed to be.
And a lot of times with all the latest and technology,
then we're always relying on success based on that or not.
I mean another words, yes, but the analytics and technology

(52:08):
in our game all good stuff. But at the end
of the day, it's good players playing good baseball that
win baseball games. So when teams get in some bad situations,
you could just go throughout the league right now, they'll
have great analytical departments. Every one of them. They all do.
They have a lot of cross smart guys upstairs. They're
really good. They're throwing the right information downstairs. But after all,
the teams, the players on the other team are better

(52:29):
than your guys by a lot, So I don't care
what kind of information you give them. They're just playing
a better brand of baseball. Maybe they're more athletic, maybe
they're scouting and development techniques were better than yours. But
we're just focusing on information as being the end all
and the reason why a group of successful or not.
It should be there to augment, not to be the
end all and the main driver in regards to whether

(52:53):
we're successful or not.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Joe.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
It's been a fascinating edition of the Book of Joe podcasts.
So if you got something to take us out to
end it on, I'd sure love to hear what you
got today.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah, well, even you know, we talked about when we
wrote our book and we're trying to go through different
titles and you eventually came up with the Book of Joe.
One of the suggestions I made of something we just
talked about, don't forget the heart beat. And that's again,
that's a huge concern that I have, So let's just
go with twenty sixteen post World Series event had the

(53:23):
umbrella on the T shirt, little rain coming down nine
hyphen eight that was actually an eight hyphen seven that
was actual score. So and on the back end blaze
and don't forget the heartbeat, because the Cubs won that
World Series because of the heartbeat of so many really
good athletes that were together as a group. And that's

(53:45):
what was That's what Jase reminded them about in that
room in Cleveland during that rain delay, was that this
is our time. I think that's the line to you,
is this is our time. We've deserved this, We've we've
worked hard, we've earned this, and it's our time to
go out there and take it. So please never forget
the heart.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
And by the way, I will never forget after that
Reindo Lay, as the Cleveland team went back on the field,
your buddy at first base the umpire was Joe West.
I remember talking to Joe game tiede Game seven World
Series coming back after that rein de Lay, and he said,
man doesn't get any better than this, And I just

(54:26):
thought it was so cool that you know, any of
us who are in that little kind of a snow
globe of a moment. If you were inside that ballpark
and you were waiting on how it would end, it
was kind of this pregnant pause.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
It was kind of just a beautiful moment to in.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Your case with the Cubs, to recalibrate, right, Yeah, but
to say and sit back, it really doesn't happen.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
We have the time to sit back and say, my goodness,
look where we are here. I mean, how special is this?

Speaker 1 (54:54):
Don't know how it's going to end, but for this
one moment, man, it is just a beautiful thing right on.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
I mean I went upstairs to look at the weather
map on my iPad. I'm sending up there with Jed Hoyor.
We're trying to make sure that we remain positive through
this whole thing and optimistic because it's hard to do that. Man,
Sometimes you gotta fake it. But yeah, all of that.
As you're saying that with great line by Joe, He's
absolutely right. It was one of the best moments in

(55:21):
I guess baseball history, and to have been part of
it as you were pretty special. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
And by the way, I have to find one of
those T shirts. I love the sound of that. Don't
forget the heart beat.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
Right, I'll find it. I'm sure I have one lane Rod.
All right, brother, next time we play golf, next time
we should be the first time. I'll get it.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
Sounds good by me.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Thanks, Joe, all right, brother, take care of Buddy. Thanks.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
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