September 19, 2023 • 50 mins
The Book of Joe Podcast with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon dives into the final two weeks of the season and teams preparing for October! Joe calls this the most fun time of the season and how it brings out the best in players. Tom explains how there's no 'correct' path to the World Series and the history of division winners in the postseason. Joe walks us through his playoff runs and how each team was different. Learn how difficult it is to be a manager in MLB and how the job changes in the playoffs!
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeart Radio.
#fsr
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, welcome back to the latest edition of the
Book of Joe Podcast. I am Tom Verducci, and today
we are going to be talking about how to win
(00:24):
in October.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
We're at that point of year, folks.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
We've got less than two weeks left in the season,
and playoff spots are still up for grabs. Teams that
have them are getting ready for the postseason. And who
better than my buddy to talk to, the only man
alive who has brought the Chicago Cubs to a World
Series championship talk about knowing how to navigate October in
(00:48):
the final weeks of the season.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Joe Madden, Joe, how you doing today?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Good morning, Tom. It's quite an intro right there, but
I'll tell you it is the most fun part of
the baseball season, Yoda. Spring training. You talk about this
all the time. You work all those different months April, May, June, July,
August to be in position to have September matter, and
then you get to this particular juncture and it's no
(01:14):
more fun for me professionally than to be in the
playoff hunt race and then eventually getting there. I just
texted Brandon Hyde a couple of days ago. So happy
for him and the Orioles, but yeah, it's the best.
It should bring out the best in you, and I really,
on an annual basis, loved it all right.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I bring this up because we have to talk about
the Atlanta Braves. I think we can all agree that
they've been the best team in baseball this year. They
are the odds on favorite to win the World Series.
But I talked with Alexanthopolis the other day, the general
manager president of baseball operations for the Braves, and he
talked about how by having such a big lead in
(01:54):
the National League East and they've been up by double
digits by a couple of months here their better positioned
for the postseason than they were last year when they
put the pedal to the floor to run down the
New York Mets, came from ten games back to win
the National League East, and then they show up in
the National League Division Series against the Phillies and they
get their doors blown off, and according to Alex, their
(02:17):
starting pitching was guessed by the time they got to October.
He felt like the series penultimate series of the year
against the New York Mets was a playoff series, and
they spent too much fuel essentially, and didn't have the
same kind of stuff we're talking about. Max Freed, Spencer Stryder,
Charlie Morton, same top three in their rotation this year.
(02:39):
So he feels better about how the Braves are entering
October this year, and I've got a message for him.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
It's not true.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I know people love to talk about this, Joe, but
there is no preferred path to winning the World Series.
It doesn't matter if you're hot, if you're cold, if
you're tepid. I think that what matters most is if
you're healthy more than anything. For every cold team that
had a bad September, I can tell you that, you know,
I can find teams that won the World Series. For
(03:10):
every team that had put the pedal to the floor
in September just barely got in, I can tell you
they won the World Series.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So listen.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I know, as a general manager, you may have a
preferred path in your mind, but history tells us it
really doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It's a complete reset in October. Joe.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Feel free to tell me I'm wrong here, but I've
seen it work both ways too many times.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Well, I've been involved in both ways. Actually, this twenty
sixteen Cubs, we clinched well well in advance of the playoffs.
And what I did was I treated the last kind
of almost two weeks as though was spring training. Went
on record said it out loud, meaning that the pitching
the bullpen I would utilize specifically, almost as though it
was an assigned day for somebody to pitch. And that
(03:58):
way they got the regular work in. They did not
get abused anyway. And then I thought, we thought that
gets getting to the playoffs, to the actual you know,
cs whatever, that we were good, we're good shape, and
then felt as though you could use them more consistently,
more often because we had given them a more recent rest.
Is that true or not, I don't know, but that's
(04:18):
what we did. And there's other times that we did
run out of gas. A perfect example for me was
the twenty was it seventeen series against the Nationals. I
don't know if you remember that we beat them. One
of the big plays and that was when Hobby's backswing
hit the catcher his glove and the ball flew out
and Jerry Lane didn't notice that and that was not
(04:39):
replayable at the time. But that series there, that was
hard fought. Man. I'll tell you that's one of the
most proud moments I've had as a manager, is that
series against the Nationals to beat them. They were very good,
they got it, they had everything, and we beat them.
And the problem there was we had a fly to
la and start playing the NLCS and had to land
(05:00):
in Albuquerque with the medical emergency on the plane the
next day, get there about noon as opposed to like
at night. You had to spend on the tarmac from
four am to like ten am the next morning, waiting
on new pilots. And they were just we were just
we were fatigued. There's no question we're fatigued. On top
of that way, Davis pitch two right around two or
two plus innings to get us there. So there was
a certain level of fatigue there that absolutely was recognizable.
(05:24):
So and you could go back to the Rockies when
they made that historic run several years ago and they
just would not they failed to lose, and then of
course the Brewers a couple years ago and then running
down as with the Cubs. But I'd prefer having at
least a couple of days. Maybe I'd say, if you
get clinched with a week just to get your pitching
in order, that's that's the perfect situation to be in.
That's just that's how I look at it. It's not
(05:45):
necessarily running people down whatever, just get it done with
the week left that you could set things up, give
people the appropriate rest. That's optimal. If you can't, I
still think there is a threat to you know, mental
and physical fatigue depends on your group, how hard you
had a push to get there. You're you always have
great examples, and I'm not disputing that just a matter
(06:06):
of having lived it. Wildcat teams have gone all the way.
The twenty two thousand and two Angels was a wildcard,
went all the way to the World Serison won it,
and then a division winner with the Cubs, same thing.
So again, I think it's unpredictable, like you're saying, I
would just say a preferred method clinch with about a
week to go, and you could set things up a
little bit easier.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
All right, let me give you some numbers here. You
mentioned your sixteen Cubs team. That's one of twelve teams
since nineteen ninety nine that won the division by fifteen
games or more obviously a huge lead. Right your cruise
to the postseason, you win your division by more than
fifteen games, and your Cubs are one of those twelve teams.
(06:48):
How did those twelve i'll call them super teams do
in the postseason? Eight of them got knocked out in
the first round. Eight of the twelve teams that won
their division since ninety nine by fifteen games or more
got knocked out in the first round. So you are
one of three teams that went on to win the
World Series. Also in that group the twenty two Astros
(07:11):
last year and the seventeen Astros. So what was it
about your Cubs group, Joe, Because I know you just
talked about almost treating it like spring training in terms
of workload.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Your team still went eighteen and eleven in September when
the games essentially were meaningless. You were twenty two and
six in August when you had a double digit lead.
This team got better and.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Kept winning games even when essentially the division wasn't hand.
So what was it about that team?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Well, I'm going to roll back the tape prior to
that is something I've always believed in, and that's to
not tire the guys out during the course of the year.
Always one of my teams to finish strong, and a
big part of that is to give people the appropriate
rest before you get to that juncture in the season.
I've been involved in a lot of teams that have
done well later in the year, and again it's based
(08:03):
on that rest. And I know a lot of people
don't want to hear that, but what I mean about
rest position players every day guys. I've talked about this,
taking advantage of a day off and then giving them
a day off before or after the day off, to
give them two consecutive days off. As an example, starting pitchers,
you know there was I don't think we did this
(08:24):
at all, but I know with the rays came out
of the specific year, but I know we went to
six man in six man rotation to two I think
to include Alex Cobb one year in order to just
give our starters somewhat of a blow at that particular time.
Relief pictures, just really paying attention to their workload as
you get later in the year, and really trying not
to over extend anybody at that particular point. So the
(08:46):
word rest, it's all proactive in front of that. I
think and then you get to that part of the
year and your guys have some freshness about him today's game.
There's a lot of choreography going on before the game,
where there's a lot of work going on on the field.
It's almost like an instructional league, whereas that stuff, to me,
should be taking of in the minor league. And if
you have to wait longer for a guy to get there, fine,
(09:07):
but make sure he has all his major league abilities
and methods in place. So there's a lot of that
going on now where I was opposed to that. I
don't like a lot of pregame, especially latter part of
the year. I like guys to report later. I like
I like less swings. I like less everything you're in
progress in order to keep the guys fresh for the
(09:27):
game that night. It's always been a big part of
my philosophy. I've seen it. This goes back when I
first got to the Angels as a young young coach,
and gosh, we'd get to September, we would absolutely be horrible,
be gased. We used to hit an hour a day
at home and on the road, or not on the road,
because you couldn't get the field for an hour but
(09:48):
a lot an hour at home and then a lot
of extra work, a lot of X treating. There is
arm worriiness to be had here, I believe. So I
just I like a better method for me and more
controlled method choreography. Having guys out there doing groovy drills
is one thing, but to really keep your mind, body
rested and well is another thing. Right now, I don't
(10:08):
even know how this speaks to I'm looking at the
records of teams that are in playoff contention, and a
lot of these guys are just going to get barely
like eighty five wins possibly, which you know, in my
minds doesn't even get you close to playoff baseball. And
I think to some extent the methods employed have something
to do with that. Regarding work and the amount of
(10:28):
information presented the players before a game I think is
absolutely way too much and they're unable to process all
this stuff. Okay, last point, I mean, I just like
I'm saying, it's rest it's not changing your methods. It's
throwing out nuggets and pamphlets in regards to what it
digest before a game. Make sure you guys are rested
and well. Change your routine up. Don't make it, don't
(10:51):
make it be boring, don't make it be the same
thing every day, and then eventually I think you can
get to that point where you are fresh in the
latter part of the year.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Let's talk about these Atlanta Braves, because it's the twenty
three version of the sixteen Cubs in that the division
has been put away for a while. The difference here
is they are not playing well in September. The Braves
in September eight and nine with a six point one
four era. You can have a bad September and still
win the World Series and certainly not ruling them out.
(11:20):
The Saint Louis Cardinals went twelve and seventeen and six
and they won the World Series. It's the worst September
ever for a World Series championship team, so it probably
doesn't matter. But they look begin to look a little
more beatable to their opponents. And when I look at
the Braves, Joe, I think they're going to hit home runs,
(11:42):
and nothing changes a game like the home run, and
I think the lineup is just too deep. You can't
go into a series thinking you're going to keep them
in the ballpark. You know, this year they're thirty five
and thirty five when they hit one home run or
no home runs. So you got a chance. But you
just can't count on holding the Braves in the park.
(12:02):
They're just too deep. So how do you beat the Braves?
I think it's like last year at the Phillies, Joe.
I think you beat their starting pitchers. And we're starting
to see some attrition in September here, Kyle Wright still
working his way back.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Charlie Morton has been a little shaky this month.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Listen.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I think the Brave lineup is so good.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
They are a little bit vulnerable to high fastballs, and
that's why I like the Milwaukee matchup against Atlanta. They're
very average against high fastballs. That braves offense. But again,
I think it's so good that offense. You're gonna have
to outscore Atlanta, and I see the path to anybody
taking out the Braves is the one the Phillies carved
out last year. Get out ahead against their starting pitchers.
(12:42):
What do you see from the Braves.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Yeah, that's a great analysis right there, one hundred percent.
I mean I've been following their pitching more recently too,
and it has been struggling a bit that lineup is
solid is not an appropriate word. It's not even close.
They're really good and they could run, They create the
havoc on the bases, they do a lot of things well. Absolutely,
(13:06):
But like you're saying, in the postseason, a hot pitching
staff could beat a really good hitting ball club. I believe,
and I think again like you're saying with Milwaukee is
a perfect example of a team that's capable of doing that.
Their record is not going to be close to Atlanta's record. However,
that group of pitches that they have can shut down
this team in that short series. It's going to be
(13:27):
a matter of catching the ball executing. That's playoff baseball.
There may have to be a more small ball being played,
the ability to do little different things that can contribute
to winning. But yeah, you're right on with that whole thing.
It's the way to pitch them. The elevated fastball. I'm
telling you, breaking ball strike that just gets kilt and
(13:48):
you don't really want to go there. These are the things.
Is this is to me where a really good analytical
group comes into play to identify exactly where to not
go in this particular moment, I would be sitting next
to Borzello in the dugout with the Cubs and knew
specifically what I thought, and that would just reaffirm it
with what he thought. Regarding the pitch planning. Sometimes guys
(14:11):
go rogue and they think that they know and they
don't know, and Catcher as all of a sudden might
have a feel, which again I'm not opposed to, but
there's some things that are black and white, really specifically
when it comes down to how to pitch the certain
hitters and if there's a weakness there, stay with it.
Don't think that you're going to fool them. Like I
used to tell guys, don't ever think that you got
(14:32):
Vladimir Guerrero set up for a break of although on
everything you do, don't ever think that. If you think that,
just throw that thought away immediately. It's not true. So
there's certain guys that are like that, where regardless if
you think you got them set up for something, if
their history tells you that they don't do well against
this other thing, don't come off it. Don't come off it, man,
because that's the one time they're going to hurt you,
and only takes it takes one big blow to turn
(14:55):
that whole vibe around with your pitching staff and the
whole vibe around for that group of hitters. So I
think this is the time when a well deviced plant
does matter, and then stay with it and execute.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, great point, Joe. I'm with you on breaking balls
on the zone to this Braves team. You're not, You're
just knocking to beat them doing that. I did go
back and look, there's six teams this year that won
the season series against the Braves Blue Jays, Astros, Cubs,
White Sox, Red Sox, and A's. In those nineteen games,
those teams went fifteen to four against Atlanta. They held
(15:27):
the Braves to a one twenty seven batting average on
high fastballs. So that's something to keep in mind as
we do see that incredible Braves offense. They're going to
have the highest lugging percentage of all time. That's how
good the Atlanta Braves are. Hey, Joe, we're going to
take a quick break here, but we get back. I
want to test your memory. I want to dive a
little more into what it takes to get your team
(15:48):
ready for October. And let's turn the clock back to
two thousand and eight with the Rays, A little bit
farther two thousand and two with the Angels Back in
a minute.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Welcome Back to the Book of Joe podcast Joe.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
The two thousand and eight Rays surprised everybody except you.
I guess take me down the stretch with that team
because you lost the lead in September. Right, you went
for five and a half up down to a half
a game lead. You were actually tied with fourteen games
left in the season. After taking a five game lead
(16:33):
into September. You finished a month thirteen and fourteen. But
you want it the right time. Those last fourteen games
you went nine to five. So what was the key
to that team? Obviously it was still learning how to
win quote unquote, what was the key to holding that
team together for those last fourteen games.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
I'm telling you, man, the biggest thing to me and
hope that this is going to be kind of a femeral,
it's just don't change anything. You don't change anything, You
don't show any kind of panic to the group. I
don't want more information, actually want lesson. I don't want
more work. I want less work. I don't want to
whole bunch of people running around the locker room. I
want the day to be exactly the same. Don't add
(17:13):
on this the last time. This is the last thing
you want to do at this time of the year
is to add new things and give these guys different
things to think about or make them uncomfortable in their environment.
I want same or less this time of the year.
And that's what we did. And I know specifically having
those conversations, and I'll tell you it's born of the angels.
(17:35):
In the latter part of the nineteen nineteen nineties, we
were close several times who were close, and Mattie Kia
was our advanced scout, and all of a sudden, I
was in charge of the distribution of information and Maddie
would just start piling on, giving me more stuff to do.
And I thought at that time, Wow, because we got
even more information. I got to make sure that these
guys get all of this stuff. And then I finally realized, Man,
(17:57):
they can't deal with this. We were not good and
the latter part of those seasons and kind of faded
away allay and part of it was I thought we
changed our methods, changed our game plan, and also try
to accelerate the amount of information given. After we've been
playing these guys all year. We've had our meetings all year,
and at this time of the season, it comes down
(18:18):
the players playing really well and better than the other side,
other teams. And in order to do that, I want
them to be totally at ease with the pace or
the beat of the day and don't add anything new
to it. So that was it. So two thousand and
two with the Angels, I knew that, and I was
really big on that. I would say, listen, no more,
no more intel, intel, no more info. Let's do the
(18:40):
same things we've been doing. Of course, Social was in
charge of that, but I was in charge of a
lot of distribution of the information at that point. I
was the analytical department almost by myself primarily, and then
of course the position coaches, whether it was Mickey or
Buddy Black, Ron Renicky, spectacular, great mind for the game,
et cetera, and primo a fatal for the infielder. So yeah,
(19:02):
you keep doing what you're doing, and I think the
thread is that you feel like you have to do more.
And I think the groups that I feel like you
have to do more almost always fall into that trap.
You don't you do less, keep them healthy and rested,
those are the big things. So when we get to
the two thousand and eight Rays, going into that moment,
that's all I was thinking about. Don't add on, keep
(19:25):
it simple, don't make it any different than what it
had been before we got on. You know, we got
in this wonderful run. And don't forget too. We had
two seven game losing streaks that season, one right before
the All Star break. I don't remember exactly when the
other one was, and I think the Baltimore Oils is
the other team that have won a World Series by
having two seven game losing streaks in the same season.
So all these things were in play. The point is,
(19:47):
don't add on, don't try to do something differently, don't
think you have to be smarter. Make sure this sense
of humor is still there, make sure the pace of
the rhythm of the day is still there. Don't let
that be impacted by changing everything up because you think
you need to in order to be a winner this situation.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Joe, I want to circle back to those two angels
in a minute, but I want to follow up on
something you mentioned about information and so much of it,
and something you once told me about in today's game. Obviously,
there's a lot more information to be had and to
be available than back when you were doing the information
for the Angels. So he once told me about as
the games get more important and as teams get better,
(20:28):
the intrusion of information begins to increase. So that seems
to be counterproductive to what you were talking about about
how players win games. Let them play and don't overload
them with information. It take us inside sort of that
mentality that now these these beefed up front offices have
do have so much access to so much more information,
(20:49):
they actually get more involved as the games get bigger.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Correct And just think about if you hire a bunch
of analysts to be analysts, what they do is they analyze.
And so you get to that point of the year
that everybody thinks that we need more until then the
other side in order to win, and that's not true.
You need better baseball players to win, You need better
rest a baseball players to win. You need better baseball
players that are not making mental mistakes. They know how
to cope with the intensity of the moment in order
(21:15):
to win baseball games that time of the year. So
again this is something again that I learned from the
Angels before two thousand to the two thousand and two
Angels and on forward. But it's just that you have
the ability to create so much information, and quite frankly,
there's so much of it. There's just a dab of
(21:36):
it that's pertinent to that day. That are nuggets that
that could be helpful to the players in particular. Now,
I was never you could give me as much information
as you want as a manager, as a coach before
a couple of days before the game. Give it to me,
go ahead, and then it's up to me us to
then turn it over to the players again in form
(21:57):
of nuggets, things that they can digest, things that are
not going to become overwhelming, things that are not going
to become intrusive. When it's hot, it's a hot moment
in a baseball game, or in a football game or
basketball game, you cannot be thinking of anything other than
the moment. You have to be involved in the moment.
You permit your instincts to take over. It's about competition
(22:20):
and beating the other person. It's not going rifling through
this mental rolodex of information that you could access in
the moment and all of a sudden it's going to
be helpful. That stuff needs to be done before the game,
and again it needs to be consolidated to the point
where it's not intrusive and complicated. So that's what I've learned.
(22:40):
Do simple Better. That's a derivative of that one of
the shirts I made several years ago, and I do
believe in that concept. Everybody believes convoluted complex is the
answer in regards to solving problems or in this situation,
winning baseball games. I think it's exactly the opposite. I
think do simple better is the correct concept. Yes, I
(23:01):
want the info and the intel. I just talked about
it with the pitching knowing that the Atlanta Braves do
not hit elevated fastball as well. That's that's a byproduct
of a good analyst coming up with that. And then
after that you have to convince your catcher and your
pitcher that listen. I know you want to throw something else,
and I know you don't think you could keep throwing
(23:21):
them fastballs, but I'm telling you right now it's true.
And if you throw them a breaka, well make sure
it bounces outside of the zone and the dirt whatever
where they can't reach it, and get back to what
works these are This is where analytics is helpful. Just
a nugget like that. No more complicated than that. Reduce, reduce, reduce, simplify,
do simple better is your best method this time of
(23:43):
the year.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Circling back to where I started, right that, you know
how you play in September, really you can.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
It doesn't have a direct effect.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
In fact, October to me, Joe is its own season
and it can change on a dime. Right Especially Listen,
there's more off days in the postseason, so the rhythm
of the game, how you use your relief pitchers, it's
all different from one hundred and sixty two game season.
So it make comfort fans when their team is playing
well on September to say, hey, our team is going
(24:13):
into the postseason the right way.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
We're hot.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
A couple of examples for you on teams that can
turn it on a dime. Famously, the fifteen Royals, right
they were fifteen and seventeen in September. They're losing the
wildcard game to Oakland. Ned Yost is probably going to
get fired, and they come back on Oakland win that
game and they can't be stopped. They win the World Series,
and your to Angels team, Let's go back there again, Joe, okay,
(24:40):
because that team had a one game lead in the
division with eleven games to play. The Angels then proceed
to lose seven of the next nine games and somehow
get it together to win the last two to sneak
in as the wildcard. They go to New York for
the first game of the division series and have a
five to four lead in the eighth inning, two out,
(25:02):
space is empty, and then it goes walk walk, single
Grand Slam.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Angels lose, and that team went on to win the
World Series.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I mean, come on, that's the team that blew a
division lead, blew an eighth inning lead against the Yankees
up by three with the bases empty and two outs,
four outs to go, and still won the World Series. So, Joe,
you've seen how the thing can change in October on
a dime.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
That team there, you're talking about, the two thousand and
two Angels, that's just one of the grittiest groups I've
ever been around. There were a bunch of tough guys.
That was a group of tough guys right there, and
I think Social's leadership had a lot to do with that,
because Mike in a moment like that, being through what
he had been through before, would not lose his mind
(25:50):
or he would not be defeated by that particular situation.
He had been through the words before, he knows things
can happen, and he was all about that. So as
Mickey Hatcher, Mickey was really good about. Mickey gave one
of the best speak they've ever heard before a playoff
game when he just implored all of us, the players
to just run hard. That was all he said. Just
(26:13):
run hard. The one thing you don't want to do
is embarrass yourself here. So if you just run hard,
I promise you things are going to work out well
for you during this playoff series. That was in the
little locker room coaches room at Yankee, the old Yankee Stadium.
So yeah, that group had grit and the ability to
come back to the point where that fifth game back
at home there, I just remember seeing their players on
(26:36):
the field absolutely defeat it at the latter part of
that game, they came back and then of course the
rest is history. So you cannot give up. You got to.
You have to embed this among your groups somehow and
have them understand things are good. It's one of my
preach my speeches. Things are going to go bad, I
promise you during the course of this series, this playoff series, somethings,
(26:59):
something's going to go really crappy. It's going to go bad,
and we cannot let that get us down. And we
cannot let that one moment defeat us. The Angel group
was really indicative of that. And the last point you
just mentioned it you talked about October. One of my
lines always with September provides its own energy, and of
course so does October. It's about getting there. Everybody talks
(27:21):
about the dog days of August. You got to get
through that, and once you do that, next month it's there.
You just plug into September, plug into October, and there's
the energy you've been looking for. Man, But you got
to work really hard to get there. And when you
get a gritty group like the two thousand and two Angels,
good stuff happened.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Well, let's talk about the wild card this year in
the National League, Joe, because we're down to about a
dozen games for these teams. We got five teams separated
by two games, and obviously only three can get into
the tournament.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
So if you're a manager of one of these teams. Basically,
you're in playoff mode right now, right absolutely tell me
about how you prepare your team and how you run
these games, knowing your season comes down to the last
dozen games.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
One game winning streaks. Man, we need a bunch of
one game winning streaks. It starts with that. I really
try to reduce it to one. That would be a
mantra that I would carry uh as in walking around
the locker room, making sure that each coach when they
have their specific meetings, really emphasize it's just about tonight.
It's not about yesterday. Ken. We can't control that. We
cannot control tomorrow. It comes down to tonight, one thing
(28:30):
at a time. With the again, with the distribution of information,
nothing's different want. I don't want early report times. I
don't want anything different that we've been doing all season
long that has I like even as much as we
can the same times, like what time do you get there,
what time are the meetings, how long are the meetings?
(28:50):
Everything about that day. I want it to be specifically
exactly how it had been during the course of the year.
I'll just mention to Sam, I had the luxury of
having Tim Buss in Chicago Bussy was the strength and
conditioning guy, but Bussy was also my vice president of
stuff and hysterical and his humor, his ability to keep
guys from getting over the top, nervous or over analytical
(29:14):
is great. You need people like that in your club
bus that don't need you don't need Albert Einstein down there, man.
You need you know, you need guys like Tim Bust,
you need, you need Jason here where, you need Johnny Lester,
Guys that have been through a little bit before. And
you need this this calmness about the group. And if
they if the the entire group senses any kind of
(29:35):
panic and just for lack of a better word, or
you feel like you have to apply more in order
to get this done, it's not gonna work. It doesn't work.
Do simple better, same, same, same every day, don't change anything,
maintain your sense of humor and I and that's it.
If you have good players, you're gonna win. If they
(29:57):
go out there they can breathe, you're gonna win. And
if they can't, you're.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Not vice president of stuff. I love that.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Hopefully he got himself business cards with that title on it.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
I made T shirts. I mean sweatshirts, hoodies with that
on it, and also a hat that was dedicated to
him that every player in the locker room got to
weark ep of stuff.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Hey, we're going to take a quick break, talk more
about the dog days, the Pennant Race. It's nitty gritty
time right now in the baseball season. We'll talk about
that a little bit more when we get back. Welcome
(30:41):
back to the Book of Joe podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Joe. One time I was talking to Brian Jordan. You
remember him. He played in the NFL and played for
the Atlanta Braves.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Oh yeah, And he.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Talked about how this time of year was exciting, not
just because the Braves seemed like they were in the
postseason every year, but the football player at him would
come out. He once told me, I feel like hitting
somebody this time of the year every year. It's like,
I'm sure you must feel that a little bit. The
air stars to turn. There's football on TV. Now, it's
got a different vibe to it. I mean, I know
it doesn't take you away from, you know, your baseball activities,
(31:12):
but yeah, there's something about the rhythm to a season,
isn't there.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, Sosh, and I would sit you know Mike. Mike's
from Chester down by Philadelphia, so we grew up close
to one another. Actually he's a little bit younger than me,
but we would giggle behind the batting cage, and one
day I said to him, this smells like football weather. Yeah,
and you know, Sosh typically looked at me and says, none,
it's playoff weather. And I love that. So from that
(31:38):
moment on, we just dubbed this time of the year
as playoff weather. But you're right. I mean, there's a
difference to it. There's the sun's different, the lighting's different,
the way it's setting, the days are becoming shorter again,
the coolness starts creeping in, and it does it does
feel like you're going to hit somebody. It does feel
like football season, especially up here in northeastern Pennsylvania. Went
out to dinner the other night. The place was parking
(32:00):
lot was packed because high school football team was playing.
It's great stuff, man, it's great stuff. But yeah, you
part of the interesting or the fun part about it
is you play, you win on a Sunday and you
hustle inside. You saw your football team's doing. And guys
are really involved in fantasy football this time of the year,
and it's a great diversion. Don't become conflicted with this.
(32:21):
We need diversions in order to keep our sanity. Fantasy
football is a great diversion. However, I stopped playing it
because I started rooting for players that were not on
my Arizona or Saint Louis Cardinals or Arizona Cardinals. So
I stopped doing that because I was conflicted and who
to root for. But it's really a lot of fun,
and especially when you're doing well. So yeah, it's all.
(32:44):
It all conspires this time of the year. Man, it's
a great time of the year, the confluence of football
and baseball working together.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yeah, and we're seeing a lot of young players now
because the game is turning younger here going through their
first Pennant races. And Joe, you had such a young
team in twenty sixteen. You did have the experience of fifteen.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Though.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
I'm curious as a.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Man what you try to pick up in terms of
body language, approaches, the way they carry themselves when young
players are in September in Pennant races for the first time,
because it seems to me veteran players you know, they've
been there, done that, thing does come into play. They
know how to handle big situations, stick to their routines.
As you said, they don't change anything. What do you
(33:25):
look for from young players?
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Their eyeballs. I'm big on eyeballs. You could see when
a guy starts spinning a little bit, or starts after
a bad moment, getting so introspective that it's going to
impact them next play, next at bat, whatever. I just
try to like mosey up to him in a manner
that's going to be very aware to him, but just
(33:49):
to get up there and just try to check in,
maybe even talk about something else. When he's on decker
in a hole, just just say something stupid to him,
just to get his mind off of that grinding moment
that he's going through. So I would always look in
their eyeballs and you know where they're at. But quite frankly,
you just mentioned that group with the Cubs in particular,
(34:09):
was so balanced. I mean, yeah, we were the youngest,
I think the youngest team to win the World Series.
From one end, I think I had heard, but you had,
you know, KB and Addie and Hobby out there simultaneous,
and Rizzo is not very old at that point either,
and Jason Heyward, you know he had Almora play. You
had a lot of young guys out there, but then
you have Johnny Lester doing his thing and Johnny. Johnny
can never you can never underestimate, you know. Johnny wasn't
(34:31):
really outspoken, but he set a great example. David Ross
and Mige Matero we had this nice balance. So for me,
it's about looking at eyeballs and that'll tell you everything.
You'll tell you. You know, I don't know. Body language could
be deceptive, but you know, if you're really reading people,
if you've done it your whole life, you know, you know,
when so many needs a little bit of a check in,
you give them a check in. But then if you
(34:51):
have veteran players like that, they definitely these other dudes
will look at these guys and these guys could actually
lead by example at this point. So I love a balance.
I love I love youth for the energy, but then
you want the long and the two guys with the
experience to not get over amped or over negative, over
(35:14):
the negative when things don't go well. And that's really
it's such a wise way to do things. And that's
that's what I loved about the sixteen Cubs.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Joe, you just remind me of a funny story from
Dusty Baker. He once was talking to Bo Schambeckler, of course,
the famous Michigan football coach, and just asked them one day.
He said, coach, you know, how do you know which
guy to play at linebacker there? Which is that that
young kid or the senior who's been there a couple
of years. But the young kids, how do you know
which guy to play? And he said, simple, I look
(35:46):
him in the eye. So there is still something to that.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
It's true, man. I mean, you know, people that have
never done it will dispute that, and they're gonna want
to go read, you know, analytically try to figure it out.
It's a human game. It's about human beings. It's about
breathing in the moment. It's about slowing things down. It's
about being able to recreate what you do in batting
(36:11):
practice or in a very calm situation when everything the
lights are on, everything's amped up a bit, that you're
able to recreate all those same body movements. But you
got a little bit of an adrenaline flow right now, man,
which really enables you to do things that you had
not been able to do before. That's what it really
comes down to. That's not spoken about enough. And that's
(36:33):
why teams right now you're going to see a group
that really just takes off. And a lot of it
has to do with their ability to breathe and slow
things down and really be able, like I said, replicate,
recreate what they normally do physically in a non stressful
moment in a bullpen, in batting practice at four point
(36:54):
thirty or four let's just say four o'clock early work,
and then here comes seven oh five or seven ten,
whatever it might be, and now you got to do
it in front of everybody. Now it matters and accounts.
That's really the secret to this whole thing. And how
do you get your players to process all this to
the point where they're able to be themselves, be them
when it really matters most.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
All right, I'm going to put you on the spot now, Joe,
as it relates to the Chicago Cubs.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
And one of your players, of course, David Ross, is
running that team. He's got a pretty young team. There's
a few veterans sprinkled in there, but for the most part,
especially with his pitching, he's got a lot of pitchers
who are beyond their professional high and innings or end,
or are pitching in a pennant race for the first time.
That team seem to have a lock on a playoff spot,
(37:41):
and they've frittered that away. They have not played well
the last couple of weeks. The walls start closing in
a little bit. They have a lot of tiebreakers that
work against them, which is not a small thing, because remember, folks,
if there's a tie for playoff spots, they do not
play tiebreaker games. It goes to first, your head to
(38:01):
head record against that team, if it's two way tie,
or if it's a multiple team tie, or if the
head to head record is tied, it goes to your
record within the division, and the Cubs lose a lot
of those tie breakers, so they have to be free
and clear if the playoff spot and not tied with
the team. So, Joe, you know, put yourself in Rossy's
shoes right now. You've got a team trying to get
(38:23):
to the finish line, struggling the last couple of weeks.
They were great the last couple of months before that,
coming out of the All Star break, how do you
make sure this team finishes strongly, or you know, at
least puts the wheels back on and makes a little
bit of a run.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Hit that pressure release valve. That could be like a
little team gathering after a game on the road. It
could even be if if the schedule is not setting
up appropriately and we've got to do this at home,
figure out something at home. But it's got to be
something that I like, again, a group situation, whether it's dinner,
(39:01):
whether it's a well we did done that Saint Louis
a couple of years ago, we just met down by
the pool at the hotel after a game just to
hang out, just to hang out, be there, the chance
to talk, socialize. They see me there and theer those circumstances,
the coaches will be there, you have a beer to
whatever it might take to just let the air out
(39:22):
a little bit. Just that kind of a social situation.
It could have been. I mean for me. People don't
realize that. But after we were down three to one
going to Cleveland, it was Halloween and I wear this
really got awful suit on the airplane, on the bus
with this Halloween suit, you know, blood and knives and
all kinds of stuff on it, just to get into
(39:45):
the Halloween spirit, but to take yourself seriously, but never
too seriously. So I would do something like that. Nothing.
It has nothing to do with more work. Like I'm saying,
this is not about a time for more information and
not the time definitely not to start breaking things down.
It's something again, whatever you could do to hit that
the pressure valve and will you release it? Go there,
(40:07):
and that would be up to you in order how
to get that done for me perfectly, be on the road,
on the road after a night game, game over, everybody required,
come down you know, the hotel, bar, whatever, and get
in there and just let's socialize its talk this thing through,
get everybody to relax a little bit. That's the way
to do this. Sorry if anybody disagrees with that, But
(40:28):
more work's not going to get it done. If you're
really struggling like that.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
It reminds me of what the Giants did recently.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
They've had a tough couple of weeks like the Cubs,
and they had a tough series in Colorado, and on
their way back home from a long road trip from
Colorado back to San Francisco, actually two Arizona, they were
going to continue the trip. They had a Barbie movie
dress up day Perfect and listen, it put a lot
of smiles on people's faces. They did win the getaway game,
which is as you know, it's always good, makes for a.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Happy plane ride.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
But I still I like hearing when things like that happen,
where guys they still put a smile on their faces
and don't change their to me based on the one
lost record.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
You got to shake it up. Man. It's tough. There's
enough pressure being applied from so many different avenue situations, directions,
and so your job is to do the exact opposite.
How do you repel that? How do you get these
guys back to being themselves? How do you get them
to go out there and basically kind of say screw it,
I'm out here to play. Let the ships fall where
(41:27):
they may. Everybody cares. I mean, don't be ever deceived
that people don't care. Not believe me, everybody cares. Everybody
really cares a lot, and sometimes that could be misconstrued.
They do, they do, but you care so much sometimes
and you don't know how to channel this that you
could actually be your own worst enemy. At this particular
juncture of the year, so again, humanize it. Pressure release five.
(41:52):
We got to let that steam out of there somehow.
Use your own imagination. I always relet on my own imagination.
I tried to read, you know, the cars, what was
going on, and again I had the benefit of having
to VP stuff bussy the perfect pressure release foul. These
things are important for a team to be successful. And
I promise every major league team that's won World Series
(42:14):
go back and ask them about the guys that kept
up loose when it really got tight. Those guys are invaluable. No,
I love it.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Hey, Joe, we'll take one more quick break and when
we get back, we will wrap up our special edition
on September crunch time.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Be right back.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Well, Joe, I mentioned that National.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
League wildcard race, and it's a little bit less crazy
in the American League, but it's still good.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
I've been waiting for a year like this for a while.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
We have multiple teams taking this thing down to the
last weekend of the season where it's winner go home.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
As I mentioned, no more tiebreaker games.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Yes, you mentioned probably eighty five wins to get you
into the postseason in the National League, which you know,
let's face it, it's not exactly a juggernaut, not great teams,
but I do like the fact that we've got some
real live races down here at the end for teams
especially hungry for postseason baseball, like the Cubs, like the Diamondbacks,
like the Reds, like the Marlins.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I think we're set up for a great finish.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
And like I said, I've been waiting for this ever
since we went to the expanded playoffs back in ninety five.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
I totally agree with that the key fan bases engage
involved at this particular juncture. By bike expanding the playoffs,
I liked all that I do, and furthermore, just among
the players themselves, baseball players getting opportunities to play later
in the year and understand what that feels like mine
one stretched as a difficult time going back to its
original form. Once you've stretched people, they're going to want this.
(43:49):
This is the baseball drug on an annual basis. I
want to be in the playoffs. If I got to
go home and watch this stuff on TV, I'm not
a very good guy to be around at that point
in the year. So I do I agree with you.
I love all of that. That is one of the
rule changes I do really dig on it does? It
keeps everybody engaged longer, and it promotes our game on
(44:10):
a wider scale. I get it, and I love all
that part about it. And yes, to see old teams
that are now new in a sense getting a chance
to be involved in a playoff wonderful. God I'd love
to see Cincinnati involved in this somehow. That would be
so cool. Orioles are already in there. Yeah, I've been
watching the Cubbies. They got a lot of exciting stuff
going on there. Yes, love to see that. There's a
(44:31):
lot of that going on, and it is good for baseball.
And yes, you're absolutely hundred percent right like all.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Of this, Joe.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
You know, after listening to you and this stuff has
been great here, I'm more convinced than ever that this
time of year, especially managers matter, because what you've been
talking about here is keeping the right atmosphere in the clubhouse,
whether it's using people like Tim Bussey, yourself, or whoever
it may be. But it also means managing games a
(44:59):
little bit differently. You know, you got yourself, as you mentioned,
to the point late in the year where guys have
not been overworked, where maybe now you can push them,
Maybe ask your closer to get four outs instead of
three outs, Maybe use a relief pitcher for a third
straight day. Because it's literally day by day at this point,
win by win, game by game. So as much as
(45:21):
managers seem to be a little bit marginalized in terms
of the power structure of the game, I still believe
that this time of year, I'm talking about the end
of the season, and especially in October, that guy in
the dugout, that guy running the team making the ultimate decisions,
really does still matter as much as he ever has.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
You're right again, I totally agree with that concept. It's
just happening so fast, and whether it's the best out
of five or a best out of seven, when you
get to those games, from if you're one one, you
want to get to two and one, or if it's
three and three and you got to win that game
because there's no weight game. Man, there's a lot going
(46:04):
on in your head in that particular point, and you
can't rely on somebody else informing you. I just know
from my own experience my mind is so charged up.
I'm absolutely so far ahead of that particular moment that's
going on in the field, and that, whether it's the
bottom of the third, two outs, I'm already in the
fifth inning. I might be even in the sixth inning
(46:24):
and you're counting your batting order, who's coming up next?
And back when it was an actual National league game,
that even added more layers to And I know people
pooh that, but I promise you be a National league
manager in a National league playoff game where nationally a
World Series game with the National League team was the
home team. A lot going on there. Folks want to
pinch hit for your guy, your pitcher, how long you
leave him in there? The double switch component of it.
(46:46):
Who goes here, who goes there? Believe me, it is
a much more difficult game to manage than the game
right now where it's just the DH only there's not
as many built ins that you have to be creative with,
even down to the point where making defensive switch. I
loved all of that. I was exhausted after those games
when you have to sit there and really project in
(47:09):
the dvance what may happen and then which you may
have to do, and how to use this bullpen, and
who's going to be the pinch runner, who where's the
defensive replacement? How are you going to pop them into
batting order? All this stuff matters. So again, you're right,
it is. It's more, it's amplified right now, no question
regarding the importance of the manager. And I kind of
(47:31):
love all of that, as you know. But believe me, man,
when you're done managing a playoff game or a World
series game, you are exhausted. You feel as though you've
played it, especially when you've won an accelerating game, because
sometimes when you lose that, you go back to your
room or your hotel, you beat yourself up unmercifully. You
will well you win it. You are charged up, just
as though you got the winning hit or the walk.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Off homework a mental and physical grind. It is that
time of year.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
But it's the kind you absolutely love, right It's adrenaline
is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
It is. You need it, man, you need it. You
need the adrenaline. You need self confidences. You're talking as
a manager. You need to believe in what you know,
and you have to believe in your method during the
course of the game. I'm serious. It's not like you
wind somebody up, throw them out there, and all of
a sudden things just happen. It's just stuff that has
(48:23):
to be thought about well in advance, and you have
to be prepped for that moment. When that moment occurs,
you've got to take advantage of that moment. You can't
let it fly by and then you go, oh my god,
I wish I had done this. Everything is so the
timing is so critical to the victory or not. And
again I just know from my own experience, having done
(48:45):
it as long as I did was really important to me.
Having done it so often for many years in the
minor leagues was so important to me. All these things
are come rushing to the forefront in that moment when
you have to make this decision, and you don't worry
about whether it's going to be wrong or or not.
That should never be part of your decision making process.
(49:08):
You do what you think is right in the moment,
and sometimes it doesn't work, it's true, But you have
to do what you think is right in the morning,
in a moment, independent of any potential criticism that may
come your way. If it doesn't work, that's just the
way this thing is. So Confidence in your decision making ability,
knowing what you believe matters. Some people don't even know
(49:29):
what they believe.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Baseball is the best game on earth, and it's never
better than it is right now.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
It is the season of urgency.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
It is wonderful to see how this is going to
play out the next last week and a half of
the regular season. Joe, you got something to take us out.
Speaking of putting a cap on things.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Yeah, I've We've talked about pressure. We've talked about don't
permit the pressure to exceed the pleasure. Here's a different
taken on it from mister Mark Twain. Do the thing
you fear most, and the death of fear is certain.
Do the thing you fear most, and the death of
fear is certain. I always encourage people to do that,
but do it. If there's something I really don't want
(50:09):
to do, whether it's because they don't want to do
it or because I'm kind of fearful of it, I
gotta do it. I make myself do that, and you don't.
It wasn't like that from the very beginning. I had
to grow into that. You cannot be truly successful, you
cannot grab the brass ring, you cannot do any of
that if you do not pretty much bury your fears.
So when I read that, I thought that was perfect
(50:30):
for today. And it's just really dovetails everything we just
talked about.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
And you can't go wrong with mister Samuel Clemens. He's
on the Mount Rushmore of American wisdom and humor. Nice going, Joe, Amen, brother,
Thank you, buddy. The Book of Joe podcast is a
production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
(50:57):
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, welcome back to the latest edition of the
Book of Joe Podcast. I am Tom Verducci, and today
we are going to be talking about how to win
(00:24):
in October.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
We're at that point of year, folks.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
We've got less than two weeks left in the season,
and playoff spots are still up for grabs. Teams that
have them are getting ready for the postseason. And who
better than my buddy to talk to, the only man
alive who has brought the Chicago Cubs to a World
Series championship talk about knowing how to navigate October in
(00:48):
the final weeks of the season.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Joe Madden, Joe, how you doing today?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Good morning, Tom. It's quite an intro right there, but
I'll tell you it is the most fun part of
the baseball season, Yoda. Spring training. You talk about this
all the time. You work all those different months April, May, June, July,
August to be in position to have September matter, and
then you get to this particular juncture and it's no
(01:14):
more fun for me professionally than to be in the
playoff hunt race and then eventually getting there. I just
texted Brandon Hyde a couple of days ago. So happy
for him and the Orioles, but yeah, it's the best.
It should bring out the best in you, and I really,
on an annual basis, loved it all right.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I bring this up because we have to talk about
the Atlanta Braves. I think we can all agree that
they've been the best team in baseball this year. They
are the odds on favorite to win the World Series.
But I talked with Alexanthopolis the other day, the general
manager president of baseball operations for the Braves, and he
talked about how by having such a big lead in
(01:54):
the National League East and they've been up by double
digits by a couple of months here their better positioned
for the postseason than they were last year when they
put the pedal to the floor to run down the
New York Mets, came from ten games back to win
the National League East, and then they show up in
the National League Division Series against the Phillies and they
get their doors blown off, and according to Alex, their
(02:17):
starting pitching was guessed by the time they got to October.
He felt like the series penultimate series of the year
against the New York Mets was a playoff series, and
they spent too much fuel essentially, and didn't have the
same kind of stuff we're talking about. Max Freed, Spencer Stryder,
Charlie Morton, same top three in their rotation this year.
(02:39):
So he feels better about how the Braves are entering
October this year, and I've got a message for him.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
It's not true.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I know people love to talk about this, Joe, but
there is no preferred path to winning the World Series.
It doesn't matter if you're hot, if you're cold, if
you're tepid. I think that what matters most is if
you're healthy more than anything. For every cold team that
had a bad September, I can tell you that, you know,
I can find teams that won the World Series. For
(03:10):
every team that had put the pedal to the floor
in September just barely got in, I can tell you
they won the World Series.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So listen.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I know, as a general manager, you may have a
preferred path in your mind, but history tells us it
really doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It's a complete reset in October. Joe.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Feel free to tell me I'm wrong here, but I've
seen it work both ways too many times.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Well, I've been involved in both ways. Actually, this twenty
sixteen Cubs, we clinched well well in advance of the playoffs.
And what I did was I treated the last kind
of almost two weeks as though was spring training. Went
on record said it out loud, meaning that the pitching
the bullpen I would utilize specifically, almost as though it
was an assigned day for somebody to pitch. And that
(03:58):
way they got the regular work in. They did not
get abused anyway. And then I thought, we thought that
gets getting to the playoffs, to the actual you know,
cs whatever, that we were good, we're good shape, and
then felt as though you could use them more consistently,
more often because we had given them a more recent rest.
Is that true or not, I don't know, but that's
(04:18):
what we did. And there's other times that we did
run out of gas. A perfect example for me was
the twenty was it seventeen series against the Nationals. I
don't know if you remember that we beat them. One
of the big plays and that was when Hobby's backswing
hit the catcher his glove and the ball flew out
and Jerry Lane didn't notice that and that was not
(04:39):
replayable at the time. But that series there, that was
hard fought. Man. I'll tell you that's one of the
most proud moments I've had as a manager, is that
series against the Nationals to beat them. They were very good,
they got it, they had everything, and we beat them.
And the problem there was we had a fly to
la and start playing the NLCS and had to land
(05:00):
in Albuquerque with the medical emergency on the plane the
next day, get there about noon as opposed to like
at night. You had to spend on the tarmac from
four am to like ten am the next morning, waiting
on new pilots. And they were just we were just
we were fatigued. There's no question we're fatigued. On top
of that way, Davis pitch two right around two or
two plus innings to get us there. So there was
a certain level of fatigue there that absolutely was recognizable.
(05:24):
So and you could go back to the Rockies when
they made that historic run several years ago and they
just would not they failed to lose, and then of
course the Brewers a couple years ago and then running
down as with the Cubs. But I'd prefer having at
least a couple of days. Maybe I'd say, if you
get clinched with a week just to get your pitching
in order, that's that's the perfect situation to be in.
That's just that's how I look at it. It's not
(05:45):
necessarily running people down whatever, just get it done with
the week left that you could set things up, give
people the appropriate rest. That's optimal. If you can't, I
still think there is a threat to you know, mental
and physical fatigue depends on your group, how hard you
had a push to get there. You're you always have
great examples, and I'm not disputing that just a matter
(06:06):
of having lived it. Wildcat teams have gone all the way.
The twenty two thousand and two Angels was a wildcard,
went all the way to the World Serison won it,
and then a division winner with the Cubs, same thing.
So again, I think it's unpredictable, like you're saying, I
would just say a preferred method clinch with about a
week to go, and you could set things up a
little bit easier.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
All right, let me give you some numbers here. You
mentioned your sixteen Cubs team. That's one of twelve teams
since nineteen ninety nine that won the division by fifteen
games or more obviously a huge lead. Right your cruise
to the postseason, you win your division by more than
fifteen games, and your Cubs are one of those twelve teams.
(06:48):
How did those twelve i'll call them super teams do
in the postseason? Eight of them got knocked out in
the first round. Eight of the twelve teams that won
their division since ninety nine by fifteen games or more
got knocked out in the first round. So you are
one of three teams that went on to win the
World Series. Also in that group the twenty two Astros
(07:11):
last year and the seventeen Astros. So what was it
about your Cubs group, Joe, Because I know you just
talked about almost treating it like spring training in terms
of workload.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Your team still went eighteen and eleven in September when
the games essentially were meaningless. You were twenty two and
six in August when you had a double digit lead.
This team got better and.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Kept winning games even when essentially the division wasn't hand.
So what was it about that team?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Well, I'm going to roll back the tape prior to
that is something I've always believed in, and that's to
not tire the guys out during the course of the year.
Always one of my teams to finish strong, and a
big part of that is to give people the appropriate
rest before you get to that juncture in the season.
I've been involved in a lot of teams that have
done well later in the year, and again it's based
(08:03):
on that rest. And I know a lot of people
don't want to hear that, but what I mean about
rest position players every day guys. I've talked about this,
taking advantage of a day off and then giving them
a day off before or after the day off, to
give them two consecutive days off. As an example, starting pitchers,
you know there was I don't think we did this
(08:24):
at all, but I know with the rays came out
of the specific year, but I know we went to
six man in six man rotation to two I think
to include Alex Cobb one year in order to just
give our starters somewhat of a blow at that particular time.
Relief pictures, just really paying attention to their workload as
you get later in the year, and really trying not
to over extend anybody at that particular point. So the
(08:46):
word rest, it's all proactive in front of that. I
think and then you get to that part of the
year and your guys have some freshness about him today's game.
There's a lot of choreography going on before the game,
where there's a lot of work going on on the field.
It's almost like an instructional league, whereas that stuff, to me,
should be taking of in the minor league. And if
you have to wait longer for a guy to get there, fine,
(09:07):
but make sure he has all his major league abilities
and methods in place. So there's a lot of that
going on now where I was opposed to that. I
don't like a lot of pregame, especially latter part of
the year. I like guys to report later. I like
I like less swings. I like less everything you're in
progress in order to keep the guys fresh for the
(09:27):
game that night. It's always been a big part of
my philosophy. I've seen it. This goes back when I
first got to the Angels as a young young coach,
and gosh, we'd get to September, we would absolutely be horrible,
be gased. We used to hit an hour a day
at home and on the road, or not on the road,
because you couldn't get the field for an hour but
(09:48):
a lot an hour at home and then a lot
of extra work, a lot of X treating. There is
arm worriiness to be had here, I believe. So I
just I like a better method for me and more
controlled method choreography. Having guys out there doing groovy drills
is one thing, but to really keep your mind, body
rested and well is another thing. Right now, I don't
(10:08):
even know how this speaks to I'm looking at the
records of teams that are in playoff contention, and a
lot of these guys are just going to get barely
like eighty five wins possibly, which you know, in my
minds doesn't even get you close to playoff baseball. And
I think to some extent the methods employed have something
to do with that. Regarding work and the amount of
(10:28):
information presented the players before a game I think is
absolutely way too much and they're unable to process all
this stuff. Okay, last point, I mean, I just like
I'm saying, it's rest it's not changing your methods. It's
throwing out nuggets and pamphlets in regards to what it
digest before a game. Make sure you guys are rested
and well. Change your routine up. Don't make it, don't
(10:51):
make it be boring, don't make it be the same
thing every day, and then eventually I think you can
get to that point where you are fresh in the
latter part of the year.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Let's talk about these Atlanta Braves, because it's the twenty
three version of the sixteen Cubs in that the division
has been put away for a while. The difference here
is they are not playing well in September. The Braves
in September eight and nine with a six point one
four era. You can have a bad September and still
win the World Series and certainly not ruling them out.
(11:20):
The Saint Louis Cardinals went twelve and seventeen and six
and they won the World Series. It's the worst September
ever for a World Series championship team, so it probably
doesn't matter. But they look begin to look a little
more beatable to their opponents. And when I look at
the Braves, Joe, I think they're going to hit home runs,
(11:42):
and nothing changes a game like the home run, and
I think the lineup is just too deep. You can't
go into a series thinking you're going to keep them
in the ballpark. You know, this year they're thirty five
and thirty five when they hit one home run or
no home runs. So you got a chance. But you
just can't count on holding the Braves in the park.
(12:02):
They're just too deep. So how do you beat the Braves?
I think it's like last year at the Phillies, Joe.
I think you beat their starting pitchers. And we're starting
to see some attrition in September here, Kyle Wright still
working his way back.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Charlie Morton has been a little shaky this month.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Listen.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I think the Brave lineup is so good.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
They are a little bit vulnerable to high fastballs, and
that's why I like the Milwaukee matchup against Atlanta. They're
very average against high fastballs. That braves offense. But again,
I think it's so good that offense. You're gonna have
to outscore Atlanta, and I see the path to anybody
taking out the Braves is the one the Phillies carved
out last year. Get out ahead against their starting pitchers.
(12:42):
What do you see from the Braves.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Yeah, that's a great analysis right there, one hundred percent.
I mean I've been following their pitching more recently too,
and it has been struggling a bit that lineup is
solid is not an appropriate word. It's not even close.
They're really good and they could run, They create the
havoc on the bases, they do a lot of things well. Absolutely,
(13:06):
But like you're saying, in the postseason, a hot pitching
staff could beat a really good hitting ball club. I believe,
and I think again like you're saying with Milwaukee is
a perfect example of a team that's capable of doing that.
Their record is not going to be close to Atlanta's record. However,
that group of pitches that they have can shut down
this team in that short series. It's going to be
(13:27):
a matter of catching the ball executing. That's playoff baseball.
There may have to be a more small ball being played,
the ability to do little different things that can contribute
to winning. But yeah, you're right on with that whole thing.
It's the way to pitch them. The elevated fastball. I'm
telling you, breaking ball strike that just gets kilt and
(13:48):
you don't really want to go there. These are the things.
Is this is to me where a really good analytical
group comes into play to identify exactly where to not
go in this particular moment, I would be sitting next
to Borzello in the dugout with the Cubs and knew
specifically what I thought, and that would just reaffirm it
with what he thought. Regarding the pitch planning. Sometimes guys
(14:11):
go rogue and they think that they know and they
don't know, and Catcher as all of a sudden might
have a feel, which again I'm not opposed to, but
there's some things that are black and white, really specifically
when it comes down to how to pitch the certain
hitters and if there's a weakness there, stay with it.
Don't think that you're going to fool them. Like I
used to tell guys, don't ever think that you got
(14:32):
Vladimir Guerrero set up for a break of although on
everything you do, don't ever think that. If you think that,
just throw that thought away immediately. It's not true. So
there's certain guys that are like that, where regardless if
you think you got them set up for something, if
their history tells you that they don't do well against
this other thing, don't come off it. Don't come off it, man,
because that's the one time they're going to hurt you,
and only takes it takes one big blow to turn
(14:55):
that whole vibe around with your pitching staff and the
whole vibe around for that group of hitters. So I
think this is the time when a well deviced plant
does matter, and then stay with it and execute.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, great point, Joe. I'm with you on breaking balls
on the zone to this Braves team. You're not, You're
just knocking to beat them doing that. I did go
back and look, there's six teams this year that won
the season series against the Braves Blue Jays, Astros, Cubs,
White Sox, Red Sox, and A's. In those nineteen games,
those teams went fifteen to four against Atlanta. They held
(15:27):
the Braves to a one twenty seven batting average on
high fastballs. So that's something to keep in mind as
we do see that incredible Braves offense. They're going to
have the highest lugging percentage of all time. That's how
good the Atlanta Braves are. Hey, Joe, we're going to
take a quick break here, but we get back. I
want to test your memory. I want to dive a
little more into what it takes to get your team
(15:48):
ready for October. And let's turn the clock back to
two thousand and eight with the Rays, A little bit
farther two thousand and two with the Angels Back in
a minute.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Welcome Back to the Book of Joe podcast Joe.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
The two thousand and eight Rays surprised everybody except you.
I guess take me down the stretch with that team
because you lost the lead in September. Right, you went
for five and a half up down to a half
a game lead. You were actually tied with fourteen games
left in the season. After taking a five game lead
(16:33):
into September. You finished a month thirteen and fourteen. But
you want it the right time. Those last fourteen games
you went nine to five. So what was the key
to that team? Obviously it was still learning how to
win quote unquote, what was the key to holding that
team together for those last fourteen games.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
I'm telling you, man, the biggest thing to me and
hope that this is going to be kind of a femeral,
it's just don't change anything. You don't change anything, You
don't show any kind of panic to the group. I
don't want more information, actually want lesson. I don't want
more work. I want less work. I don't want to
whole bunch of people running around the locker room. I
want the day to be exactly the same. Don't add
(17:13):
on this the last time. This is the last thing
you want to do at this time of the year
is to add new things and give these guys different
things to think about or make them uncomfortable in their environment.
I want same or less this time of the year.
And that's what we did. And I know specifically having
those conversations, and I'll tell you it's born of the angels.
(17:35):
In the latter part of the nineteen nineteen nineties, we
were close several times who were close, and Mattie Kia
was our advanced scout, and all of a sudden, I
was in charge of the distribution of information and Maddie
would just start piling on, giving me more stuff to do.
And I thought at that time, Wow, because we got
even more information. I got to make sure that these
guys get all of this stuff. And then I finally realized, Man,
(17:57):
they can't deal with this. We were not good and
the latter part of those seasons and kind of faded
away allay and part of it was I thought we
changed our methods, changed our game plan, and also try
to accelerate the amount of information given. After we've been
playing these guys all year. We've had our meetings all year,
and at this time of the season, it comes down
(18:18):
the players playing really well and better than the other side,
other teams. And in order to do that, I want
them to be totally at ease with the pace or
the beat of the day and don't add anything new
to it. So that was it. So two thousand and
two with the Angels, I knew that, and I was
really big on that. I would say, listen, no more,
no more intel, intel, no more info. Let's do the
(18:40):
same things we've been doing. Of course, Social was in
charge of that, but I was in charge of a
lot of distribution of the information at that point. I
was the analytical department almost by myself primarily, and then
of course the position coaches, whether it was Mickey or
Buddy Black, Ron Renicky, spectacular, great mind for the game,
et cetera, and primo a fatal for the infielder. So yeah,
(19:02):
you keep doing what you're doing, and I think the
thread is that you feel like you have to do more.
And I think the groups that I feel like you
have to do more almost always fall into that trap.
You don't you do less, keep them healthy and rested,
those are the big things. So when we get to
the two thousand and eight Rays, going into that moment,
that's all I was thinking about. Don't add on, keep
(19:25):
it simple, don't make it any different than what it
had been before we got on. You know, we got
in this wonderful run. And don't forget too. We had
two seven game losing streaks that season, one right before
the All Star break. I don't remember exactly when the
other one was, and I think the Baltimore Oils is
the other team that have won a World Series by
having two seven game losing streaks in the same season.
So all these things were in play. The point is,
(19:47):
don't add on, don't try to do something differently, don't
think you have to be smarter. Make sure this sense
of humor is still there, make sure the pace of
the rhythm of the day is still there. Don't let
that be impacted by changing everything up because you think
you need to in order to be a winner this situation.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Joe, I want to circle back to those two angels
in a minute, but I want to follow up on
something you mentioned about information and so much of it,
and something you once told me about in today's game. Obviously,
there's a lot more information to be had and to
be available than back when you were doing the information
for the Angels. So he once told me about as
the games get more important and as teams get better,
(20:28):
the intrusion of information begins to increase. So that seems
to be counterproductive to what you were talking about about
how players win games. Let them play and don't overload
them with information. It take us inside sort of that
mentality that now these these beefed up front offices have
do have so much access to so much more information,
(20:49):
they actually get more involved as the games get bigger.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Correct And just think about if you hire a bunch
of analysts to be analysts, what they do is they analyze.
And so you get to that point of the year
that everybody thinks that we need more until then the
other side in order to win, and that's not true.
You need better baseball players to win, You need better
rest a baseball players to win. You need better baseball
players that are not making mental mistakes. They know how
to cope with the intensity of the moment in order
(21:15):
to win baseball games that time of the year. So
again this is something again that I learned from the
Angels before two thousand to the two thousand and two
Angels and on forward. But it's just that you have
the ability to create so much information, and quite frankly,
there's so much of it. There's just a dab of
(21:36):
it that's pertinent to that day. That are nuggets that
that could be helpful to the players in particular. Now,
I was never you could give me as much information
as you want as a manager, as a coach before
a couple of days before the game. Give it to me,
go ahead, and then it's up to me us to
then turn it over to the players again in form
(21:57):
of nuggets, things that they can digest, things that are
not going to become overwhelming, things that are not going
to become intrusive. When it's hot, it's a hot moment
in a baseball game, or in a football game or
basketball game, you cannot be thinking of anything other than
the moment. You have to be involved in the moment.
You permit your instincts to take over. It's about competition
(22:20):
and beating the other person. It's not going rifling through
this mental rolodex of information that you could access in
the moment and all of a sudden it's going to
be helpful. That stuff needs to be done before the game,
and again it needs to be consolidated to the point
where it's not intrusive and complicated. So that's what I've learned.
(22:40):
Do simple Better. That's a derivative of that one of
the shirts I made several years ago, and I do
believe in that concept. Everybody believes convoluted complex is the
answer in regards to solving problems or in this situation,
winning baseball games. I think it's exactly the opposite. I
think do simple better is the correct concept. Yes, I
(23:01):
want the info and the intel. I just talked about
it with the pitching knowing that the Atlanta Braves do
not hit elevated fastball as well. That's that's a byproduct
of a good analyst coming up with that. And then
after that you have to convince your catcher and your
pitcher that listen. I know you want to throw something else,
and I know you don't think you could keep throwing
(23:21):
them fastballs, but I'm telling you right now it's true.
And if you throw them a breaka, well make sure
it bounces outside of the zone and the dirt whatever
where they can't reach it, and get back to what
works these are This is where analytics is helpful. Just
a nugget like that. No more complicated than that. Reduce, reduce, reduce, simplify,
do simple better is your best method this time of
(23:43):
the year.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Circling back to where I started, right that, you know
how you play in September, really you can.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
It doesn't have a direct effect.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
In fact, October to me, Joe is its own season
and it can change on a dime. Right Especially Listen,
there's more off days in the postseason, so the rhythm
of the game, how you use your relief pitchers, it's
all different from one hundred and sixty two game season.
So it make comfort fans when their team is playing
well on September to say, hey, our team is going
(24:13):
into the postseason the right way.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
We're hot.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
A couple of examples for you on teams that can
turn it on a dime. Famously, the fifteen Royals, right
they were fifteen and seventeen in September. They're losing the
wildcard game to Oakland. Ned Yost is probably going to
get fired, and they come back on Oakland win that
game and they can't be stopped. They win the World Series,
and your to Angels team, Let's go back there again, Joe, okay,
(24:40):
because that team had a one game lead in the
division with eleven games to play. The Angels then proceed
to lose seven of the next nine games and somehow
get it together to win the last two to sneak
in as the wildcard. They go to New York for
the first game of the division series and have a
five to four lead in the eighth inning, two out,
(25:02):
space is empty, and then it goes walk walk, single
Grand Slam.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Angels lose, and that team went on to win the
World Series.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I mean, come on, that's the team that blew a
division lead, blew an eighth inning lead against the Yankees
up by three with the bases empty and two outs,
four outs to go, and still won the World Series. So, Joe,
you've seen how the thing can change in October on
a dime.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
That team there, you're talking about, the two thousand and
two Angels, that's just one of the grittiest groups I've
ever been around. There were a bunch of tough guys.
That was a group of tough guys right there, and
I think Social's leadership had a lot to do with that,
because Mike in a moment like that, being through what
he had been through before, would not lose his mind
(25:50):
or he would not be defeated by that particular situation.
He had been through the words before, he knows things
can happen, and he was all about that. So as
Mickey Hatcher, Mickey was really good about. Mickey gave one
of the best speak they've ever heard before a playoff
game when he just implored all of us, the players
to just run hard. That was all he said. Just
(26:13):
run hard. The one thing you don't want to do
is embarrass yourself here. So if you just run hard,
I promise you things are going to work out well
for you during this playoff series. That was in the
little locker room coaches room at Yankee, the old Yankee Stadium.
So yeah, that group had grit and the ability to
come back to the point where that fifth game back
at home there, I just remember seeing their players on
(26:36):
the field absolutely defeat it at the latter part of
that game, they came back and then of course the
rest is history. So you cannot give up. You got to.
You have to embed this among your groups somehow and
have them understand things are good. It's one of my
preach my speeches. Things are going to go bad, I
promise you during the course of this series, this playoff series, somethings,
(26:59):
something's going to go really crappy. It's going to go bad,
and we cannot let that get us down. And we
cannot let that one moment defeat us. The Angel group
was really indicative of that. And the last point you
just mentioned it you talked about October. One of my
lines always with September provides its own energy, and of
course so does October. It's about getting there. Everybody talks
(27:21):
about the dog days of August. You got to get
through that, and once you do that, next month it's there.
You just plug into September, plug into October, and there's
the energy you've been looking for. Man, But you got
to work really hard to get there. And when you
get a gritty group like the two thousand and two Angels,
good stuff happened.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Well, let's talk about the wild card this year in
the National League, Joe, because we're down to about a
dozen games for these teams. We got five teams separated
by two games, and obviously only three can get into
the tournament.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
So if you're a manager of one of these teams. Basically,
you're in playoff mode right now, right absolutely tell me
about how you prepare your team and how you run
these games, knowing your season comes down to the last
dozen games.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
One game winning streaks. Man, we need a bunch of
one game winning streaks. It starts with that. I really
try to reduce it to one. That would be a
mantra that I would carry uh as in walking around
the locker room, making sure that each coach when they
have their specific meetings, really emphasize it's just about tonight.
It's not about yesterday. Ken. We can't control that. We
cannot control tomorrow. It comes down to tonight, one thing
(28:30):
at a time. With the again, with the distribution of information,
nothing's different want. I don't want early report times. I
don't want anything different that we've been doing all season
long that has I like even as much as we
can the same times, like what time do you get there,
what time are the meetings, how long are the meetings?
(28:50):
Everything about that day. I want it to be specifically
exactly how it had been during the course of the year.
I'll just mention to Sam, I had the luxury of
having Tim Buss in Chicago Bussy was the strength and
conditioning guy, but Bussy was also my vice president of
stuff and hysterical and his humor, his ability to keep
guys from getting over the top, nervous or over analytical
(29:14):
is great. You need people like that in your club
bus that don't need you don't need Albert Einstein down there, man.
You need you know, you need guys like Tim Bust,
you need, you need Jason here where, you need Johnny Lester,
Guys that have been through a little bit before. And
you need this this calmness about the group. And if
they if the the entire group senses any kind of
(29:35):
panic and just for lack of a better word, or
you feel like you have to apply more in order
to get this done, it's not gonna work. It doesn't work.
Do simple better, same, same, same every day, don't change anything,
maintain your sense of humor and I and that's it.
If you have good players, you're gonna win. If they
(29:57):
go out there they can breathe, you're gonna win. And
if they can't, you're.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Not vice president of stuff. I love that.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Hopefully he got himself business cards with that title on it.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
I made T shirts. I mean sweatshirts, hoodies with that
on it, and also a hat that was dedicated to
him that every player in the locker room got to
weark ep of stuff.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Hey, we're going to take a quick break, talk more
about the dog days, the Pennant Race. It's nitty gritty
time right now in the baseball season. We'll talk about
that a little bit more when we get back. Welcome
(30:41):
back to the Book of Joe podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Joe. One time I was talking to Brian Jordan. You
remember him. He played in the NFL and played for
the Atlanta Braves.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Oh yeah, And he.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Talked about how this time of year was exciting, not
just because the Braves seemed like they were in the
postseason every year, but the football player at him would
come out. He once told me, I feel like hitting
somebody this time of the year every year. It's like,
I'm sure you must feel that a little bit. The
air stars to turn. There's football on TV. Now, it's
got a different vibe to it. I mean, I know
it doesn't take you away from, you know, your baseball activities,
(31:12):
but yeah, there's something about the rhythm to a season,
isn't there.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, Sosh, and I would sit you know Mike. Mike's
from Chester down by Philadelphia, so we grew up close
to one another. Actually he's a little bit younger than me,
but we would giggle behind the batting cage, and one
day I said to him, this smells like football weather. Yeah,
and you know, Sosh typically looked at me and says, none,
it's playoff weather. And I love that. So from that
(31:38):
moment on, we just dubbed this time of the year
as playoff weather. But you're right. I mean, there's a
difference to it. There's the sun's different, the lighting's different,
the way it's setting, the days are becoming shorter again,
the coolness starts creeping in, and it does it does
feel like you're going to hit somebody. It does feel
like football season, especially up here in northeastern Pennsylvania. Went
out to dinner the other night. The place was parking
(32:00):
lot was packed because high school football team was playing.
It's great stuff, man, it's great stuff. But yeah, you
part of the interesting or the fun part about it
is you play, you win on a Sunday and you
hustle inside. You saw your football team's doing. And guys
are really involved in fantasy football this time of the year,
and it's a great diversion. Don't become conflicted with this.
(32:21):
We need diversions in order to keep our sanity. Fantasy
football is a great diversion. However, I stopped playing it
because I started rooting for players that were not on
my Arizona or Saint Louis Cardinals or Arizona Cardinals. So
I stopped doing that because I was conflicted and who
to root for. But it's really a lot of fun,
and especially when you're doing well. So yeah, it's all.
(32:44):
It all conspires this time of the year. Man, it's
a great time of the year, the confluence of football
and baseball working together.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yeah, and we're seeing a lot of young players now
because the game is turning younger here going through their
first Pennant races. And Joe, you had such a young
team in twenty sixteen. You did have the experience of fifteen.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Though.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
I'm curious as a.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Man what you try to pick up in terms of
body language, approaches, the way they carry themselves when young
players are in September in Pennant races for the first time,
because it seems to me veteran players you know, they've
been there, done that, thing does come into play. They
know how to handle big situations, stick to their routines.
As you said, they don't change anything. What do you
(33:25):
look for from young players?
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Their eyeballs. I'm big on eyeballs. You could see when
a guy starts spinning a little bit, or starts after
a bad moment, getting so introspective that it's going to
impact them next play, next at bat, whatever. I just
try to like mosey up to him in a manner
that's going to be very aware to him, but just
(33:49):
to get up there and just try to check in,
maybe even talk about something else. When he's on decker
in a hole, just just say something stupid to him,
just to get his mind off of that grinding moment
that he's going through. So I would always look in
their eyeballs and you know where they're at. But quite frankly,
you just mentioned that group with the Cubs in particular,
(34:09):
was so balanced. I mean, yeah, we were the youngest,
I think the youngest team to win the World Series.
From one end, I think I had heard, but you had,
you know, KB and Addie and Hobby out there simultaneous,
and Rizzo is not very old at that point either,
and Jason Heyward, you know he had Almora play. You
had a lot of young guys out there, but then
you have Johnny Lester doing his thing and Johnny. Johnny
can never you can never underestimate, you know. Johnny wasn't
(34:31):
really outspoken, but he set a great example. David Ross
and Mige Matero we had this nice balance. So for me,
it's about looking at eyeballs and that'll tell you everything.
You'll tell you. You know, I don't know. Body language could
be deceptive, but you know, if you're really reading people,
if you've done it your whole life, you know, you know,
when so many needs a little bit of a check in,
you give them a check in. But then if you
(34:51):
have veteran players like that, they definitely these other dudes
will look at these guys and these guys could actually
lead by example at this point. So I love a balance.
I love I love youth for the energy, but then
you want the long and the two guys with the
experience to not get over amped or over negative, over
(35:14):
the negative when things don't go well. And that's really
it's such a wise way to do things. And that's
that's what I loved about the sixteen Cubs.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Joe, you just remind me of a funny story from
Dusty Baker. He once was talking to Bo Schambeckler, of course,
the famous Michigan football coach, and just asked them one day.
He said, coach, you know, how do you know which
guy to play at linebacker there? Which is that that
young kid or the senior who's been there a couple
of years. But the young kids, how do you know
which guy to play? And he said, simple, I look
(35:46):
him in the eye. So there is still something to that.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
It's true, man. I mean, you know, people that have
never done it will dispute that, and they're gonna want
to go read, you know, analytically try to figure it out.
It's a human game. It's about human beings. It's about
breathing in the moment. It's about slowing things down. It's
about being able to recreate what you do in batting
(36:11):
practice or in a very calm situation when everything the
lights are on, everything's amped up a bit, that you're
able to recreate all those same body movements. But you
got a little bit of an adrenaline flow right now, man,
which really enables you to do things that you had
not been able to do before. That's what it really
comes down to. That's not spoken about enough. And that's
(36:33):
why teams right now you're going to see a group
that really just takes off. And a lot of it
has to do with their ability to breathe and slow
things down and really be able, like I said, replicate,
recreate what they normally do physically in a non stressful
moment in a bullpen, in batting practice at four point
(36:54):
thirty or four let's just say four o'clock early work,
and then here comes seven oh five or seven ten,
whatever it might be, and now you got to do
it in front of everybody. Now it matters and accounts.
That's really the secret to this whole thing. And how
do you get your players to process all this to
the point where they're able to be themselves, be them
when it really matters most.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
All right, I'm going to put you on the spot now, Joe,
as it relates to the Chicago Cubs.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
And one of your players, of course, David Ross, is
running that team. He's got a pretty young team. There's
a few veterans sprinkled in there, but for the most part,
especially with his pitching, he's got a lot of pitchers
who are beyond their professional high and innings or end,
or are pitching in a pennant race for the first time.
That team seem to have a lock on a playoff spot,
(37:41):
and they've frittered that away. They have not played well
the last couple of weeks. The walls start closing in
a little bit. They have a lot of tiebreakers that
work against them, which is not a small thing, because remember, folks,
if there's a tie for playoff spots, they do not
play tiebreaker games. It goes to first, your head to
(38:01):
head record against that team, if it's two way tie,
or if it's a multiple team tie, or if the
head to head record is tied, it goes to your
record within the division, and the Cubs lose a lot
of those tie breakers, so they have to be free
and clear if the playoff spot and not tied with
the team. So, Joe, you know, put yourself in Rossy's
shoes right now. You've got a team trying to get
(38:23):
to the finish line, struggling the last couple of weeks.
They were great the last couple of months before that,
coming out of the All Star break, how do you
make sure this team finishes strongly, or you know, at
least puts the wheels back on and makes a little
bit of a run.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Hit that pressure release valve. That could be like a
little team gathering after a game on the road. It
could even be if if the schedule is not setting
up appropriately and we've got to do this at home,
figure out something at home. But it's got to be
something that I like, again, a group situation, whether it's dinner,
(39:01):
whether it's a well we did done that Saint Louis
a couple of years ago, we just met down by
the pool at the hotel after a game just to
hang out, just to hang out, be there, the chance
to talk, socialize. They see me there and theer those circumstances,
the coaches will be there, you have a beer to
whatever it might take to just let the air out
(39:22):
a little bit. Just that kind of a social situation.
It could have been. I mean for me. People don't
realize that. But after we were down three to one
going to Cleveland, it was Halloween and I wear this
really got awful suit on the airplane, on the bus
with this Halloween suit, you know, blood and knives and
all kinds of stuff on it, just to get into
(39:45):
the Halloween spirit, but to take yourself seriously, but never
too seriously. So I would do something like that. Nothing.
It has nothing to do with more work. Like I'm saying,
this is not about a time for more information and
not the time definitely not to start breaking things down.
It's something again, whatever you could do to hit that
the pressure valve and will you release it? Go there,
(40:07):
and that would be up to you in order how
to get that done for me perfectly, be on the road,
on the road after a night game, game over, everybody required,
come down you know, the hotel, bar, whatever, and get
in there and just let's socialize its talk this thing through,
get everybody to relax a little bit. That's the way
to do this. Sorry if anybody disagrees with that, But
(40:28):
more work's not going to get it done. If you're
really struggling like that.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
It reminds me of what the Giants did recently.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
They've had a tough couple of weeks like the Cubs,
and they had a tough series in Colorado, and on
their way back home from a long road trip from
Colorado back to San Francisco, actually two Arizona, they were
going to continue the trip. They had a Barbie movie
dress up day Perfect and listen, it put a lot
of smiles on people's faces. They did win the getaway game,
which is as you know, it's always good, makes for a.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Happy plane ride.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
But I still I like hearing when things like that happen,
where guys they still put a smile on their faces
and don't change their to me based on the one
lost record.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
You got to shake it up. Man. It's tough. There's
enough pressure being applied from so many different avenue situations, directions,
and so your job is to do the exact opposite.
How do you repel that? How do you get these
guys back to being themselves? How do you get them
to go out there and basically kind of say screw it,
I'm out here to play. Let the ships fall where
(41:27):
they may. Everybody cares. I mean, don't be ever deceived
that people don't care. Not believe me, everybody cares. Everybody
really cares a lot, and sometimes that could be misconstrued.
They do, they do, but you care so much sometimes
and you don't know how to channel this that you
could actually be your own worst enemy. At this particular
juncture of the year, so again, humanize it. Pressure release five.
(41:52):
We got to let that steam out of there somehow.
Use your own imagination. I always relet on my own imagination.
I tried to read, you know, the cars, what was
going on, and again I had the benefit of having
to VP stuff bussy the perfect pressure release foul. These
things are important for a team to be successful. And
I promise every major league team that's won World Series
(42:14):
go back and ask them about the guys that kept
up loose when it really got tight. Those guys are invaluable. No,
I love it.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Hey, Joe, we'll take one more quick break and when
we get back, we will wrap up our special edition
on September crunch time.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Be right back.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Well, Joe, I mentioned that National.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
League wildcard race, and it's a little bit less crazy
in the American League, but it's still good.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
I've been waiting for a year like this for a while.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
We have multiple teams taking this thing down to the
last weekend of the season where it's winner go home.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
As I mentioned, no more tiebreaker games.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Yes, you mentioned probably eighty five wins to get you
into the postseason in the National League, which you know,
let's face it, it's not exactly a juggernaut, not great teams,
but I do like the fact that we've got some
real live races down here at the end for teams
especially hungry for postseason baseball, like the Cubs, like the Diamondbacks,
like the Reds, like the Marlins.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I think we're set up for a great finish.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
And like I said, I've been waiting for this ever
since we went to the expanded playoffs back in ninety five.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
I totally agree with that the key fan bases engage
involved at this particular juncture. By bike expanding the playoffs,
I liked all that I do, and furthermore, just among
the players themselves, baseball players getting opportunities to play later
in the year and understand what that feels like mine
one stretched as a difficult time going back to its
original form. Once you've stretched people, they're going to want this.
(43:49):
This is the baseball drug on an annual basis. I
want to be in the playoffs. If I got to
go home and watch this stuff on TV, I'm not
a very good guy to be around at that point
in the year. So I do I agree with you.
I love all of that. That is one of the
rule changes I do really dig on it does? It
keeps everybody engaged longer, and it promotes our game on
(44:10):
a wider scale. I get it, and I love all
that part about it. And yes, to see old teams
that are now new in a sense getting a chance
to be involved in a playoff wonderful. God I'd love
to see Cincinnati involved in this somehow. That would be
so cool. Orioles are already in there. Yeah, I've been
watching the Cubbies. They got a lot of exciting stuff
going on there. Yes, love to see that. There's a
(44:31):
lot of that going on, and it is good for baseball.
And yes, you're absolutely hundred percent right like all.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Of this, Joe.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
You know, after listening to you and this stuff has
been great here, I'm more convinced than ever that this
time of year, especially managers matter, because what you've been
talking about here is keeping the right atmosphere in the clubhouse,
whether it's using people like Tim Bussey, yourself, or whoever
it may be. But it also means managing games a
(44:59):
little bit differently. You know, you got yourself, as you mentioned,
to the point late in the year where guys have
not been overworked, where maybe now you can push them,
Maybe ask your closer to get four outs instead of
three outs, Maybe use a relief pitcher for a third
straight day. Because it's literally day by day at this point,
win by win, game by game. So as much as
(45:21):
managers seem to be a little bit marginalized in terms
of the power structure of the game, I still believe
that this time of year, I'm talking about the end
of the season, and especially in October, that guy in
the dugout, that guy running the team making the ultimate decisions,
really does still matter as much as he ever has.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
You're right again, I totally agree with that concept. It's
just happening so fast, and whether it's the best out
of five or a best out of seven, when you
get to those games, from if you're one one, you
want to get to two and one, or if it's
three and three and you got to win that game
because there's no weight game. Man, there's a lot going
(46:04):
on in your head in that particular point, and you
can't rely on somebody else informing you. I just know
from my own experience my mind is so charged up.
I'm absolutely so far ahead of that particular moment that's
going on in the field, and that, whether it's the
bottom of the third, two outs, I'm already in the
fifth inning. I might be even in the sixth inning
(46:24):
and you're counting your batting order, who's coming up next?
And back when it was an actual National league game,
that even added more layers to And I know people
pooh that, but I promise you be a National league
manager in a National league playoff game where nationally a
World Series game with the National League team was the
home team. A lot going on there. Folks want to
pinch hit for your guy, your pitcher, how long you
leave him in there? The double switch component of it.
(46:46):
Who goes here, who goes there? Believe me, it is
a much more difficult game to manage than the game
right now where it's just the DH only there's not
as many built ins that you have to be creative with,
even down to the point where making defensive switch. I
loved all of that. I was exhausted after those games
when you have to sit there and really project in
(47:09):
the dvance what may happen and then which you may
have to do, and how to use this bullpen, and
who's going to be the pinch runner, who where's the
defensive replacement? How are you going to pop them into
batting order? All this stuff matters. So again, you're right,
it is. It's more, it's amplified right now, no question
regarding the importance of the manager. And I kind of
(47:31):
love all of that, as you know. But believe me, man,
when you're done managing a playoff game or a World
series game, you are exhausted. You feel as though you've
played it, especially when you've won an accelerating game, because
sometimes when you lose that, you go back to your
room or your hotel, you beat yourself up unmercifully. You
will well you win it. You are charged up, just
as though you got the winning hit or the walk.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Off homework a mental and physical grind. It is that
time of year.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
But it's the kind you absolutely love, right It's adrenaline
is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
It is. You need it, man, you need it. You
need the adrenaline. You need self confidences. You're talking as
a manager. You need to believe in what you know,
and you have to believe in your method during the
course of the game. I'm serious. It's not like you
wind somebody up, throw them out there, and all of
a sudden things just happen. It's just stuff that has
(48:23):
to be thought about well in advance, and you have
to be prepped for that moment. When that moment occurs,
you've got to take advantage of that moment. You can't
let it fly by and then you go, oh my god,
I wish I had done this. Everything is so the
timing is so critical to the victory or not. And
again I just know from my own experience, having done
(48:45):
it as long as I did was really important to me.
Having done it so often for many years in the
minor leagues was so important to me. All these things
are come rushing to the forefront in that moment when
you have to make this decision, and you don't worry
about whether it's going to be wrong or or not.
That should never be part of your decision making process.
(49:08):
You do what you think is right in the moment,
and sometimes it doesn't work, it's true, But you have
to do what you think is right in the morning,
in a moment, independent of any potential criticism that may
come your way. If it doesn't work, that's just the
way this thing is. So Confidence in your decision making ability,
knowing what you believe matters. Some people don't even know
(49:29):
what they believe.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Baseball is the best game on earth, and it's never
better than it is right now.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
It is the season of urgency.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
It is wonderful to see how this is going to
play out the next last week and a half of
the regular season. Joe, you got something to take us out.
Speaking of putting a cap on things.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
Yeah, I've We've talked about pressure. We've talked about don't
permit the pressure to exceed the pleasure. Here's a different
taken on it from mister Mark Twain. Do the thing
you fear most, and the death of fear is certain.
Do the thing you fear most, and the death of
fear is certain. I always encourage people to do that,
but do it. If there's something I really don't want
(50:09):
to do, whether it's because they don't want to do
it or because I'm kind of fearful of it, I
gotta do it. I make myself do that, and you don't.
It wasn't like that from the very beginning. I had
to grow into that. You cannot be truly successful, you
cannot grab the brass ring, you cannot do any of
that if you do not pretty much bury your fears.
So when I read that, I thought that was perfect
(50:30):
for today. And it's just really dovetails everything we just
talked about.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
And you can't go wrong with mister Samuel Clemens. He's
on the Mount Rushmore of American wisdom and humor. Nice going, Joe, Amen, brother,
Thank you, buddy. The Book of Joe podcast is a
production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
(50:57):
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Fox Sports Radio News
Host
Jonas Knox
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com