The Book of Joe: Brawls and Schwarbombs!

The Book of Joe Podcast with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon begins with a scuffle between the Rangers and Astros. Tom and Joe disagree over what started it and how it should be handled.  What impact will the moment have as the series heads into Game 6? Over to the Phillies/Diamondback series, Tom explains how he expects the pitching to play out.  Plus, Joe's reaction to the unbelievable postseason being had by Kyle Schwarber.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey there, welcome back.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's The Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Verducci
and my good friend Joe Madden and Joe the minute
that kind of call it nonsense or excitement, whatever your
point of view is, happened in the ALCS Game five.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
I couldn't wait to talk to you about it.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
As a guys, I know you've been thrown out of
at least one postseason game.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
You know how the thing can get hot and heavy.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
That was an all time postseason emotional, energizing, entertaining game.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
I put it up there with Joey Bautista.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Batflip game up in Toronto in twenty fifteen Rangers Blue Jays. Boy,
I can't wait to dive into this, So we have
to start right there, Joe. I know we'll get around
to talking about Arizona and Philadelphia, but my goodness, that
was the game of the postseason so far. And first
I want to get your take because I think we
might be disagreeing on what happened there.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Well, yeah, I mean, obviously it's set up by the
home run, and that was That's fine. Somebody hits home
run but then obviously it was the reaction to the
home run from Garcia that really set all of the
wheels in motion. I still am of the ilk that
I that celebration that he demonstrated right there would be

(01:27):
fine with me if it occurred as a walk up
and the game was over. But if you do it
during the course of the game, there's still enough old
school sensibilities involved in our game that you've got to
be heads up things. Things may happen afterwards to you
or somebody else. It's over the top, and I listen,
I'm all about celebrating achievement, and I've talked about it

(01:47):
all the time, all the time, but there's something to
be said of there's a certain decorm involved where there
is a certain amount of respect for the game, for yourself,
for the opposition, et cetera. So yeah, be happy. I
watched Werber hit his bomb, I watched Harper hit his bomb,
and how they went around the basis came back end.
It might have been a stare here or there, but

(02:08):
uh going to dug out, check everybody's hands and sit down.
I still like that method the best. I think it's
the right way to do things. Like I said, you
want to be over the top celebratory, Fine, but wait
at BET's the walk off, roll baby, roll, go for it.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
So when you're watching, when you're watching that game on television,
you think that the Astros retaliated through him on purpose
because the way he celebrated the home run. Correct, of course, absolutely, yeah, Okay,
I think you're a hundred percent wrong.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Okay, and I'll tell you why.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
First of all, what he what Garcia did there that
happens all the time in today's game. The Astros literally
had no problem with what he did. He did not
direct anything towards the Astros dugout. He hit what Jose
Brady said was the biggest home run of his life,
which is true. Justin Verlander is forty years old, who's
been the game longer than him right now, had no

(02:59):
problem with the celebration. So it was a hit, the best,
the biggest home run the guy's ever hit it up
and down the clubhouse. No one had a problem with
what he did. Martin mal Nawa said, he didn't even
see what he did. And if you see the replace,
he's not even near home plate as Garcia stomps on
home plate.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
So we've got that to me, that was ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Absolutely, it's over the top the way the game is now,
see it all the time, no problem with it. You
want to celebrate, go ahead and celebrate it, just don't
put it in the face of the other team. He
did not do that, all right. Now we get to
that situation. Garcia comes up for the first time after
that huge three run Homer gets hit with ninety eight
ninety nine up and in looks bad.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Granted, give you that totally. There is no way, Joe.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Now I'm playing an American League Championship Series game five
winn of that game is one went away from the
World Series. I'm down by two runs. There's already a
runner on base. There's no way I'm putting another runner
on base with nobody out for the sake of a
petty argument. Adops saving that one for next April or May,
for a game that doesn't count. So there's no way

(04:07):
a bread who was going in danger putting another run
around base and letting this game get out of hand.
What you're doing right there is you're saying, our petty
little disagreement about some home run celebration which they actually
didn't have, is bigger than trying to win an American
League championship game. And that's why James Hoy the umpiring
crew were absolutely wrong. It looked bad, Yes, it looked bad.

(04:28):
If you go back to your little umpiring manual on
a hit by pitches after home runs, you say, you
know what, he must have done that on purpose, and
HOI told Alex Bregman, Hey, that was a hit by
pitch after a three run homer by the other team's
best player. Well yeah, on the face of it, but
think about the situation, dude.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
It's the American League Championship Series.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
I can honestly tell you, in all my years of
covering baseball, I have never seen a team go out
a hitter intentionally in the postseason. You are not going
to risk a suspension, which then brianon brew has got
he's going to appeal. We'll see what happens. But there's
no way he's trying to hit him. Given the game importance.
I just don't understand it. If you're the umpire there,

(05:11):
you have to think about these things. You just can't
treat the game like it's April. I'm telling you there's
no way that Brian and Bray, you who walked the
first batter. By the way, already put a guy in
base with a walk. He's trying to go up and in.
You need to pitch Garcia. If fastballs up and in
sliders down in a way, why in the world would
they hit him? Did you listen to Bruce bochie after

(05:31):
the game? Bruce Brocchi basically said, well, I don't know
what happened. Listen, you know, Joe, if one of your
players thinks he got hit intentionally, you got to bat
him up. If you think, and you're Bruce brochiere in
the game for fifty sixty years, you think that was intentional,
you will say that was intentional. He did not say that.
Joonahein the catcher said, we don't know if it was

(05:53):
intentional or not, but it looked bad.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Come on, you can't throw.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
A guy out of the game because something looked intentional.
The best thing to do there, if you're James hoy
is just let it play out. Let Garcia have his moment. Okay,
the bench is emptied. Restore calm. You cannot in a
postseason game throughout a cleanup hitter, a manager and the
best setup reliever for the other team. We're talking about
World Series being decided. Alex Bragman told James Hoy, Hey,

(06:18):
we play our whole lives to have a chance to
go to the World Series. You have to think about that.
We're not going to risk anything and miss that out
on that chance. And I think they didn't look at
the situation that the World Series was on the line,
not a petty argument which didn't even exist. By the way,
did it look bad, Yes, there's no question that looked bad,
But there's no way give it. It's a postseason situation

(06:40):
that they're trying to go right after Garcia and hit him.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
I don't believe.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
That that's a lot going on there, Tubby.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
But it is a lot. But I got fired up.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
I hate to see postseason games decided with, you know,
taking people off the field, managers and players when it
was not clear that it happened.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
Well, I listen, I'm good with that. I'm good with
not taking people up the field. But I still believe
it happened on purpose.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
I do, But why Joe? Why would he hit him?
They didn't have a problem with the celebration.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
They say that they have to say that in order
to be able to cover themselves to not get the
guy suspended afterwards. It's just the way you talk after
a game like that. You're to defend one another. There's
no question about it. I get all of that, and
I probably we would have done the same thing had
it been my team. I don't even know that. I
would not say that Dusty asked them to do that,
but somebody among the group might have said something because

(07:31):
it was just way too obvious to me what had happened.
And again I'm not advocating or not advocating for it.
I'm just saying when I thought I saw it. And furthermore,
like you're saying, okay, the suspension and there is the
potential for it to be reviewed, etc. In my mind's eye,
the right thing to do would be if in fact
there is a suspension, to put it off to the

(07:53):
next season. If in fact, if at this point, if
people have had a chance to think about it, in
a sense, cooler heads would prevail. But yeah, I thought
it was absolutely intentional, And I know what everybody's saying.
I get it. Like I said, I've been there, done that.
You're always trying to protect your guy in a moment
like that. Based on this and we don't want anybody
suspend it. We have to we have to be unified
in our approach right here, we have to say the

(08:14):
same things. And you know, from the other manager's side,
you know, you're right, I probably would have said it
was intentional or Buach did not. But nevertheless, I still
believe it was intentional. Like I'm saying, I think, uh
regarding a bray you uh, the way that he uh
what's his name? Garcia turned on Maldonado and they started

(08:36):
getting each other's face obviously from the beginning, and had
how it had happened as he came around for the
home run previous to that. It was all there. It
was all there. So yeah, I passionately, which you said
is absolutely correct, But I also believe that there's another
layer of truth to this whole thing. He did throw
him at him on purpose. They did not expect the

(08:57):
reaction by the umpire, suspensions, et cetera. But it happened,
and now I think they need to come back and
review it properly and push this off to the next season.
That's what I think's gonna happen.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Well, here's what's gonna happen. A brave is going to appeal.
He's got it has to be heard within forty eight hours.
By the way, it's not like during a regular season
guys right wait like three months until they're on the
il to take their suspension or whatever.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
So he's going to appeal.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
I believe he's gonna get it knocked down to one game,
so I think he's going to be available for six
and if there's a game seven here in the ALCS.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
But he is looking at a postseason suspension.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
They will not hold this in abeyance until the next
regular season, which really stinks. I mean, that shouldn't happen,
but that's the way the protocol is. I can't see
it going away. We'll see I think it should go away.
There's no way he should be suspended. To me, there's
no no way. And again, Joe, I'm sorry, this is
the postseason. I've never seen teams go ahead hunting in

(09:52):
the postseason, especially when it's a two run game in
the eighth inning and you already have a runner on base.
It's not a huge argument. They did not have a
problem with Garcia what he I didn't have a problem
did anybody when Garcia did what he did?

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Say Ooh, he's gonna get thrown at his next time up.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
No, because it's the emotion of a postseason It wasn't
over the top, It wasn't directed to the Astros. The
Astros are trying to win a freaking postseason game.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
That's what matters.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
I agree, one hundred percent agree. However, regardless of all
that a beautiful logic that you're presenting, and I cannot
disagree with you. I still think it happened. They weren't
expecting the reaction that they got, and they did. Everything
came down the way it did come down, Like you're saying,
I hope if it is a one game suspension only,
they're gonna have to determine whether or not. Obviously, like

(10:46):
if you play that game the next game and the
Astles are way up, or in a situation where they're losing,
a Braille could be safe for the last game, or
do they have to pick where they have to pick
a game that he's unavailable for in advance.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
No, they can't pick it.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
He has to go down as soon as the appeal
is heard and it's ruled on. So my guess is
he'll appeal, Dusty Baker will use him for two.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
It exactly. He might start six.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
I'm thinking he might listen, might listen b seven. Let's
get back to the Rangers side of this thing though.
But again, if I'm the Rangers and I absolutely know
my heart of heart, someone was throwing up my cleanup hitter,
there's no question when you asked me about the game,
I'm saying, darn right, that was intentional. I'm saying the
same things you're saying. First, Boach, you didn't say that.

(11:33):
Jonahyme didn't say that. They all agreed it looked bad.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
They're just saving it for later, man, that's all. It's
all part of it.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Here's the other part, Joe, listen, I get it with Garcia,
and nobody wants to get hit by ninety eight upstairs, right.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
It looks bad.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
You're angry, it's in his own mind. He just hit
a three red homeword to put his team ahead his
last time up.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
I get that.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
You deserve to, you know, blow up, yell something at Maldonado, whatever,
you got to end it right there, man, I mean
he kept it going. If he then puts the bad down,
walks the first base, glares at a bray, you saying
you can't get under my skin.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
I think the Rangers win the game.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
It's possible.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, you know, all heckbro loose because he went after Maldonado,
had to be separated by Marvin Hudson.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Now you have the benches emptying.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Now, Jose Leclerk is sitting for twenty five minutes before
he goes back to the mountain.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah, game switch.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
The whole game switched. And I can tell you this.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
I'm down there with Fox at the Astros side.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
I'm not literally in their dugout.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
I can honestly tell you that dugout after the Presley
gets out of that eighth inning was louder than it
was all night long. They're bagging on benches, they're yelling
at one another. I'm telling you that that inning, that
half inning fired up the Houston Astros. Doesn't mean they
win the game, no, but I can honestly tell you
there was more emotion in that team after that half

(12:55):
fitting now than I had seen the entire night. Not
that they were down, but I'm telling you they hit
an extra level because of that. So Garcia puts his
bat down, goes to first base. We're not talking about
any ofthing you're right, one hundred percent right. But it
didn't happen that way.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
And the whole point is that the argument is whether
or not it was intentional or not. It primarily starts
right there. What you're saying is absolutely right. But I
also believe that he did get hit on purpose. I
don't know that he wanted to throw up and in
like that, which possibly would have retailed the emotion on
Garcia's part a little bit, but it just I think
just that that's just what happened. Nobody was thinking properly
at that point. Everybody was working off emotion, very visceral moment,

(13:33):
very difficult to control yourself at that point, even though
you need to. I get all that, I get all that,
But that's what I thought I saw, And the final
point would be that hope. I wish that they had
done a better job of legislating afterwards regarding like suspensions,
et cetera, because I Brayia is that important to this,
to this team, in this group, and you're right, you

(13:53):
get a chance to get to the World Series, and frequently,
unless you are the Astros, you get it almost annually.
But it's a it's a tough moment. Again, I know
what I saw, what I thought I saw, But everything
else you're talking about I cannot argue with I Just
it happened.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, listen, I have tremendous respect for umpires, and I
think they've the whole postseason, they've really done a great job.
But man, this is a huge mistake in my book.
I mean, you can't again, you can't take players and
managers off the field for this in the postseason situation
where what happened was I'm going to tell you that
it was not intentional, but I will tell you I'll

(14:28):
give you the fact that it looked bad.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
Definitely, there's no question about it.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
I could see why people did think it was intentional,
as you do. I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying
is the umpires here have to let it play out.
They got control of the situation play on.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
Did the MB office comment on all this, how the
Empire's handled did it all or well?

Speaker 1 (14:46):
They backed them up because the Empires did follow protocol
where they got together, all six of them in this case,
basically said what do you have here? And they all
came to the conclusion that because Garcia hit the home
run and because I'm guessing there was an incident back
in July between the Rangers and the But basically it's
because and HOI told Alex Pregnant this, the guy, the

(15:08):
clean up hitter for the Rangers, hit a home run
his last time up three year on homer.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
He comes up next time, he gets hit up and in.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
It's also by the way, as you know, Joe, it's
the location of the pitch and he hits in the
hip in a leake.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
We're not talking about any of this.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
They're very sensitive to injury, the potential of injury, so
that's a huge part of this as well. But it's
simply the matter of plugging in two and two into
the computer and getting four here.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
There's not any to me.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
They're not weighing the importance of the game in the
postseason situation. Again, I've looked at this in my own mind.
I've looked things up about postseason suspensions. I can't find
anything where a pitcher through was judged to throw intentionally
at a batter in a postseason game. Never, So that's
my issue with the umpires. I think they went by

(15:56):
the book and not by the field of the situation,
and now it's impacting probably at least one postseason game,
and that shouldn't happen.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
And by the way, Dusty Big twenty six years.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Managing in the big leagues more than four thousand games,
been thrown out of a game twenty six times. He
didn't lose it too often. And I've never seen him
as livid as he was when that call was made.
So listen again, if I had Bruce Bochie after the
game saying it was definitely intentional, yeah, I might think

(16:28):
it was. But when I heard Bruce Brocchie equivocate on
whether it was intentional or not, I was like, you
know what, these umpires made a mistake.

Speaker 3 (16:36):
Final point Astro's win, you know, the rallying cry of
the point that the emotion came back in their favor. Again,
you think about this stuff all the time. Was an
intentionally set up to do that? Obviously, of course not.
But however, the fact that they did kind of stick
up for one another that almost never fails within the group,

(16:56):
whether they were win that game or win the next
couple of games when they got back home, it's just
it's interesting to see that they're in such a dire
situation and they came back and won, and like you said,
after Presley gets out of that inning, the emotion within
the dugout. There's got to be something to that too.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
By the way, you have to tell the story about
what you were thrown out of a postseason game.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
You think it was twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
You're playing the Dodgers and there was a strikeout and
I believe it was the left field umpire actually said
the ball was tipped.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
It hit the ground, so it was not a strike three.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
The original call was that it was swinging miss strike three,
and Dave Roberts came out and they wanted to check
on it, and the umpires overturned the call.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Do you remember that?

Speaker 3 (17:43):
I don't. The one I remember is I got kicked
up by Jimmy Wolf in a game at Tampa Bay.
I thought that was a Was that not a playoff game?
When Jimmy Wolf kicked me out?

Speaker 1 (17:52):
It might have been one too. I was thinking, this
is that Wrigley Field. Curtis Granderson batting for the Dodgers. Okay,
swings and misses, and he was clear he missed the pitch.
There was no foul tip, the ball hit the ground
and the catcher's glove so it was strike three. It was
called that way, and they actually appealed, and I think
it was either the third base or the left field

(18:14):
umpire said, you know what he did, tip the ball.
That's not strike three. You immediately I think you were
thrown out.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
Like I think I remember that, but I don't have
I don't have it ordered. I don't have the total
I don't have the total context.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
Man.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
But yeah, listen, that's the whole point. I mean you have.
You're just reacting. It's not like it's a playoff game,
or it's not a playoff game. It's not like you're
ready to go to World Series. You're not ready to
go to World Series. Under those circumstances, I would need
really pretty much need like your bench coach to grab
you or like in a situation like that with Dusty
or a bray you, whatever, somebody's got to grab you

(18:47):
or like in advance of that moment and say, listen,
next time this dude comes up. I know how upset
you might be, but let's we're not going to do this.
We're not going to do this today. You have to
remind it of that sometimes because if you go out
there with your own thoughts and you just left your
own devices and again you're just visually going to react
to a moment. Wow. It's it's tough, boy, because you
just you just get locked up in the emotion. We're

(19:09):
all competing all the time, we've all been raised a
different way, and all of a sudden you do different things,
and obviously you regret it when you get done a
lot of times. But nevertheless, it's the heat of the moment, man,
and you will do crazy stuff in the heat of
the moment. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Great point, because if you noticed, after Dusty was thrown
out of the game, he actually sat back down and
did not want to leave, and Marvin Hudson came over
and said, Dusty, you gotta go.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
He's like, I'm not leaving. And it was Dusty's coaching staff.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
Basically he told him, Dusty, if you don't leave here,
you're looking at not just being thrown out, you're going
to be suspended.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yea, And so he finally reluctantly left. But it's true, man, Yeah, yeah, true.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
So I guess we'll leave it at Neither one is
going to convince each other, but it's a compelling argument,
and it's it's one of those great baseball dilemmas if
you will, where you can see it from both sides.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Correct, very cool stuff. Well, I want to dive into
some of the actual.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
Baseball that happened during that game, because lots of things
to talk about there as well, and what right now
looks like a pivotal game of the ALCS.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
We'll be right back after.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
This back here with Joe Madden on the Book of
Joe podcast. We're talking about Game five of the ALCS
as we enter Game six coming up. Joe, I'm curious

(20:29):
about pitching strategies, especially late in the game, and how
you should attack hitters when you're protecting a lead. I'm
looking at the first of all, let's go back to
that ninth inning for Houston. Janner Diaz gets a base hit.
He had a base hit since the end of September.
They sent jon Jonathan Singleton up to pinch hit, and

(20:50):
Singleton has not had a bat in the postseason. He
has not had a base hit since September the thirteenth,
and the Estros obviously don't use their bench that much.
He goes up there to pitch hit, he doesn't swing
the bat. Literally, the cow goes three and two. It's
a two run game. Run around first base. You have
a guy up there who has not swung yet, and

(21:10):
has not swung in a month, and Jose Le Clark
throws a change up. He threw a three and two
change up and walked him. Now we've got first and second,
and guess who's coming up as the go ahead run
Jose al two V. Wait, there's more. Jose al twove
steps in. One of the world's greatest fastball hitters. You
know that, Joe. First pitch, the clerk throws a really

(21:32):
nice slider, gets the call in the outside corner. It's
oh to one. What do you do the next pitch?
They don't want to double up on the slider. You
know all two V is too good of a fastball hitter.
You don't want to come up with the fastball. Even
though the clerk throws ninety seven to ninety eight, he
decides to throw a change up. Jose Le Clark, at
that point this year, had thrown nineteen change ups to

(21:53):
right handed hitters. At two percent of his pitches the
right handers have been change ups. He decides to throw
a change up and it just floats up and in
a two hits it out. I couldn't believe either pitch
the three to two change up to a guy hasn't
hit for a month, and a rare right on right
change up from the clerk.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
That leaves the ballpark.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
You get beat by Jose Altive on what literally is
Jose Leclerk's fifth best pitch to a right ended hitter.
So we can talk about, you know, throwing at guys,
not throwing a Guy's curious your take on pitch selection,
especially late relievers get late in the game protecting a lead.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
Well, that really screams Scott and report to me. I
don't know that either the clerk or the catcher would
have all of a sudden got this, had to see
piphany and decided, like you said, to throw the fifth
best pitch. I would bet that was discussed before the
game because a twov had been so has been so good,
obviously always good in the playoffs, that he would pick

(22:57):
and choose that. Maybe they felt that he's been hitting
everything else, let's try the change up. Or again he
might have faced OU don't know how many change ups
all season versus his right handed pitcher and maybe was
not very good at it. That would be my guess,
and with Singleton's same thing, I guess he just had
him as dead red and they felt the clerk can
throw a strike with his change if you have to
throw a strike pitch under those circumstances. So maybe, again,

(23:18):
not watching it that closely enough or knowing enough, I
would think between the clerk and the catcher, they thought
it was a really good strike pitch because you cannot
rely because Singleton will accept his walks, he will not
expand the strike zone, so you can't count on that.
And I'm on the sidelines and I'm watching something like
that occur where we're going strike ball pitch in a
full count when you really can't do that. That obviously

(23:40):
used to upset me a lot. So again I would
bet that they liked the change up, or they liked
the fact that the clerk can throw that for a strike.
But when it came to Altuve, the fact that he's
been so hot, they were looking for alternative plans to
get him out and may have picked the wrong time
to zig or when they should have zagged. Kind of
a thing. But it screams to me that that was

(24:01):
discussed before the game in those situations to choose to
make those pitches because neither the clerk or him the catcher.
Really I don't know if that the right word is
creativity or not. I don't see either one of them
wanting to go to that direction under those circumstances.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
I think two has just been that much of a
pissed you sometimes overthink it. Now he did throw al
two a two change ups. It was either game one
or Game two, did leclerk no action on either pitch,
just out of the zone. But yeah, I mean it's
it's the same with your Don Alvarez. You know, these
guys who can cover so many different pitches create problems

(24:41):
when it comes to game calling. But as you know, Joe,
to me, if you look at regular season, postseason doesn't matter,
but especially postseason, if my late inning reliever is out
there on the mound, there's two things I really have
to depress. Walks and home runs. You just it'll kill you,
And you know that's what it hurt Leclerk. Actually, it's

(25:04):
hurt the Rangers a lot in the series with walks
that lead to runs. And then on the other side,
you look at Ryan Presley, who's just been unbelievable in
his postseason career forty three postseason appearances, has not blown
to save, has not lost a game, rarely gives up
home runs. It pitched out of trouble in both the
eighth and the ninth innings. So I think, as we

(25:24):
thought going in Joe, the difference in the bullpens. You know, again,
we'll put aside all the nonsense and the bench clearing stuff.
In Game five, bullpen's been a difference. Dusty just has
more better options than does Bruce Bocci.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
Going back to the tube thing though, I mean, if
you think about his swing, I'm just playing this up
mentally right now. Why they might have done something like
that to get underneath him is really a good spot.
He's a flat swinger, and he likes to pitch up
in his own primarily, so a really good change up
that gets underneath a writing from a right handed pitchers
and outstanding pitch. James Shields is really good at that.

(26:00):
Alex Cobb, with that vulcan pitch that he's got, can
do that kind of stuff. So there are writings that
could get the ball underneath. Writings that have very flat swings.
Guys that have that are really good high ball hitters normally,
like I look at Evan Longoria too. Evan I was
always from the time he was a kid, had that
really flat swing that he would crush something up, but
something down and in underneath them. Roco ball Delhi, I've

(26:21):
had a bunch of these guys that if you could
get underneath them right on right, they have really no chance.
So I would that may have been the logic involved
right there, he just didn't get it where he wanted
to get that pitch, and then obviously it speeds up
the bat and two we can get to it if
you put in the wrong spot, so that may have
been part of it.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Also, Yeah, I think you're right, and it was the
wrong spot, you know, down and in and not down enough.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
That's night Zone.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
Let's talk about pitching matchups and then we'll move on
to the NL.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
Listen, if we get to a game seven, it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
It's Max Scherzer, who was really rusty, as you would
expect after not pitching for thirty six days, sure, against
Christian Javier, who's just been lights out really since the
end of the season. Game six, it's the Rangers who
have the pitching advantage with a red hot Nathan Valdi.
A big game Nathan, by the way against from Ravaldez.

(27:13):
And you know, I talked with the pitching coach, Josh
Miller about from Briveldez and he basically said he hasn't
had his curveball for four months. He's overthrowing his sinker
where it's straightened out, He's much more on top of
the ball. He's actually if you look at the metrics
on his sinker, they actually look like for see metrics,
it's just holding its plane as a sinker at the

(27:35):
bottom of the zone, which is bad news for.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
A sinker ball pitcher.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
So he's worked the last week in between starts here
on his three flag round days and his bullpen days
and actually lowering his arm angle to try to get
some more sink back in that. So we'll see if
the mechanical adjustment plays out.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
But from Bravaldez has not been good for a long time.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Here, Evaldi has been hot, Joe. You know what it's
like when you give the ball in a must win
situation to a pitcher that you really trust. I actually
think the Rangers feel good being on the road, which
doesn't bother them at Minute May Park and give it
a ball to Avaldi.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Agreed all of that thing about Valdez. I really like him.
About what we all like him. He needs to put
the ball on the ground. That's what he does really well.
He puts the ball on the ground. That sinker is
a very good pitch. And off of that, like you said,
the breaking ball, sliders slurve, but what do you want
to call it a curve or not? He and to me,

(28:32):
he's been really tough on right handed hitters. I really
like I said, I think I might have mentioned you before.
I'm not afraid to start a lefty against him, I'm
really not. I he would make more mistakes I thought,
hit able mistakes to the lefties, and he would to
righty's because when everything he's got in his in his
toolbox going on, the way he pitches the right handed hitters,
it's very difficult to put the ball in the air

(28:54):
and even I think a lot of strikeouts occurring again
that underneath pitch to them and then and then to
fade down in a way. So I think you're going
to know early on with him if he's throwing ground
balls and the contact isn't very frisky, like it's less
stand contact he could pitch his typical kind of game,
but that's a stretch. He hasn't been there for a while.
I know, the flat ground in between the armagle all

(29:15):
sounds really good. But this is about feel and confidence.
So unless he goes out there confidently and feels what
he's doing early, he's gonna run into the same kind
of issues he had before. You're right regarding your vald,
He's going to pitch the same way. There's no doubt.
I could definitely see this game going seven games, this
series going seven games, based on the weirdness of the
Astros at home and how good the Rangers are on

(29:38):
the road. I definitely could see this as a seven
game situation. And at that point with Max, there's just
ain no telling with that whatsoever. He will rise to
the occasion to a certain extent, but I don't know. Man,
when you've been off that long and you've had issues
with your shoulder of all things, that's a bad spot.
And then here we have Hobbyer coming back. So I see,
I did really interesting game seven popping up with this one,

(30:02):
and like early on, if this is getting ground balls,
he may be there five plus innings.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
I think you're right too. I think I agree the lefties.
I actually have a better shot against Valdez. The curveball
just doesn't play as well against the same sided.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
But the curveball.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
Keep an eye on the game, because you know what
he's been doing is he's been like his sinker, he's
been overthrowing it. He can tend to get emotional out there,
and he's just throwing way too many non competitive curve balls.
And if he can land curveballs early in this game
and my hunches, he's going to throw a ton of
curveballs in this game. You know, normally he's going to

(30:42):
throw about thirty percent. I think you're going to look
at over forty percent curve balls in this game.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
But he's got to land it early.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
He's got to at least make it a competitive pitch
where hitters, which they have been doing, have just been
kind of dismissing it because out of his hand it's
a ball. If he can land a few early on,
I think you'll see him ride that breaking ball because
when it's right, that's as good of a curveball as
there is in the game.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
All Right, let's talk about National League Joe.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
We got the Arizona Diamondbacks going into the den, that
is Citizens Bank Ballpark, fighting for their season. Any chance
the Diamondbacks and go into Philly and take two from
the Phillies.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
I don't see it. I don't see how. I think
they pretty much the series. Had you know, Kimberl really
had a really hard time out there, otherwise the series
would be over. I think so just based on that,
they they got fortunate the fact that he had such
a hard time in Arizona and going back there with
the day off, the day's rest, all the other bullpen

(31:39):
fellows will be ready to go for the Phillies. I
think you're going to see the same kind of conclusion.
You're going to see the same emotion from their offense
from Philadelphi. You're going to see, I think, the same
kind of quick jump start early on in the game.
Even even if even if Arizona were to get up
a little bit early run one or two runs early,
with the home court advantage, those kind of players, I

(32:01):
still think this is a situation where they would come back.
So so yeah, I really believe this will go. You know,
the next game will be it And like I said,
it would have been done by now. Had Kimberle had
had he pitched better, But I don't see it right now.
I think they really have to reconsider this. I'm curious,
you know, the usage in the spots of the game.
I would almost bet that Robbie, if there's a chance

(32:21):
not that you're looking for one, and you know, maybe
the middle innings where they might be behind the Phillies
in Game six, get him back out there to see
if you could work through some things and see if
you get your utility back. Otherwise, if they were to
win the game tomorrow and conclude it, that's it. I'd
be curious to see what they how they set up
their pitching for the World Series, because it may exclude

(32:44):
him if in fact they think they can get him right.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah, I definitely want to ask you about that when
you have someone of that stature Craig Kimberll and things
clearly aren't working right for him.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
I mean, the home run by Alec Thomas.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Was just a doesn't ninety four mile an hour floater
of a fastball? I mean, and he always scares me
because he's he's one of these relief pitchers, like a
old As Chapman who seems to have a walk in
him all the time, and these guys who don't defend
the running game, well, you know.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
Those are especially risky.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
So when you've got a veteran guy like that, obviously
huge status in the game, he's done it so many
times before. But what you're looking at in the moment
tells you to me, his stuff is short that I
can't really trust him in a high leverage spot. That's
got to be a very difficult situation to handle if
you're Rob Thompson. Now, granted I understand Joe. Bottom line

(33:36):
is you have to win the game and you got
to do it the best way you can. But I'm
assuming Joe you need a conversation with your pitcher at
that point to let him know that you still have
confidence in him when you're signaling that you don't have confidence.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
Right, that's going to require some serious conversation with your
pitching coach and your bullpen coach too, because they talk
to him all the time. I mean, as a manager,
you might have the same prevy to do the same
conversations that they do. Obviously they're gonna hear different things.
They're going to read body language maybe a little bit differently,
or even emotion in the conversation, and they're going to
give you a better read, a clearer read regarding this

(34:13):
is what I'm saying. You may be right, but then
they're gonna add some substance to it. They're gonna add
some color to it and give you a better opportunity
to understand the depth of what's going on right here.
So that's all gonna happen. It's all gonna happen. The
thing is, if you feel as though you cannot use
him in a typical or similar role that you've had

(34:34):
to that point, that it might be wiser to like
move your other guys to the back of the game
al resids sat or move them to the back and
then bump everybody out. Now, Soto was no bargain the
other day either, and Sirin Anthony, he's he's got a
great arm. Man, guy's got a great arm, but you
can see it in his face. Just a little bit

(34:54):
scattered too, and not as confident as you like to see.
So they have a lot of these little issues with
some of the guys at the back end of their bullpen,
but primarily with the Kimberlo. Okay, if we're going to
keep him it's going to have to be earlier in
the game, or you have to figure out that we
have somebody that we have more confidence in even in

(35:15):
the sixth or seventh inning, and then move everybody back
after that. It's going to be a good conversation. First
of all, they got to get there, but it'd be
a good conversation to be a part of to see
how they're going to try to figure that out.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, and you and me, we've seen enough of Rob
Thompson running these postseason games to know that he's not
going to hold somebody back to close like Alvarado probably
to me, has got the best stuff to close, but
he's such a great troubleshooter in a game who can
come in and get a punch out with runners on
that you know, Reb Thompson is not going to be

(35:47):
able to help himself from plugging him into a game
when he absolutely needs him. He's not going to hold
him for a ninth inning lead preservation that might not
come if things get away.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
So you know where does he go?

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Well, we've seen him close games with Matt Strom, with
Ranger Suarez.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
I think this is how the failures are going to roll.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
Joe he's just Rob Thompson is going to run the game,
and when he gets to the ninth inning with a lead,
if he's got that, it may be somebody who's not
a traditional closer who he uses it at that point.
What do you think about operating games in that regard
the postseason where you don't have that designated guy to
get the last three outs.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
Well, you know, kind of did in two thousand and
eight because when Perceval got hurt, then we became all
hands on deck bullpen. And it's not bad. I mean,
like you're talking about. Of course, I always like to
have the definitive closer so I could build the eight
innings off him and in the postseason may seven and
two thirds because this guy might be able to pitch
four outs. But when you don't have that, there's also

(36:44):
kind of a uniqueness, something good about being able to
pop anybody at any time, maybe from the six or
seventh inning. On. The luxury I had in two thousand
and eight was JP Howe and Grant Balfour. These guys
were like, they were so big regarding the success of
the Rays that year, and they were like the middle
inning clothes is the way I view them. When you

(37:05):
have some middle inning closers, man, they could get you
out of jam. Either hold a small leader, even a
small deficit when you have a good offense like the
Phillies do, you just want to hold a small deficit
also to get you to the latter part of the game.
So there's an interesting component of that too. And then
once you've established like a floating closer that everybody's got

(37:26):
to be ready under their different circumstances, the guys kind
of dig on that, they kind of thrive on that,
and they're okay with that because then then all of
a sudden, you're building their confidence too. So I still
always argue for the traditional ninth inning guy, it helps
you set everything up before that. But when you don't
have that, then you have these built in middle inning
guy closers that kid, like I said, either hold it

(37:49):
for a bit and then and then it empowers the
other guys for the backside of the game. And you're
going to see performances now that weirdly that you probably
would not have seen during the course of the year.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
Hey, when we get back after this quick break, I
want to ask Joe about one of his favorites.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
One of mine as well.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Kyle Schwarber, Why is this guy basically the new Reggie
Jackson when it comes to left handed home run hitting
in the postseason? Back after this, all right, Joe, Kyle Schwarber,

(38:27):
I think he just passed Reggie Jackson in the postseason
most home runs by a left handed hitter. You know,
he's not going to hit for a high average, which
is kind of unusual in my book. I mean, Kyle,
I think I know he strikes out a ton, doesn't
hit much more over two hundred. I think of him
as a great hitter even despite that batting average. But
what is it about this guy, Joe? It makes him

(38:49):
so dangerous, especially in a postseason.

Speaker 3 (38:51):
Well, I mean right, First of all, he's done some
really nice work with his batting style, stance, approach, how
he sets up, and I know that Kevin has a
lot to do with that. He is so much more
and so much more precise with the bat head Number one,
Number two, he's paid hit home runs. He's not paid

(39:13):
to get base hits. He likes to draw his walks,
but he's not up there. If you look at his
swing and I was approach to the ball, what he's
trying to do. It's not about base hits, and it's
definitely not the blooper to left field. That's just going
to be an accident on occasion. So this is who
he is. This is what he is. This is who
he is. And furthermore, he's not The boy is not afraid.
The man's not afraid. He is. Gosh, he's the same

(39:34):
cat all the time. I mean, he shows up and
he shows up to play the same game every day.
And the thing is, when he goes badly, it doesn't
It doesn't kill us confidence. It does not kill his confidence.
I mean, if he could be over twenty and he
knows that the next one is going to be again
a bomb somewhere. So that's what he's paid to do,
that's what he's bred to do. I mean, you watch,

(39:56):
like I said, you watch the swing, the kind of
little bit of the lift in the swing, primarily right now,
you know the center field of the pull side. He
could go to left center, no question, I've seen a
lot of that. But right now he's in a pretty
good pull groove and he's not missing his pitch. Man,
when it's there, he's not missing it. Theirs solo shots
we've talked about this. I think he gets challenged a
lot with nobody on base and because of that, because

(40:19):
of Turner and Harper, etc. So he's getting protected by
the whole lineup right now too by hitting leadoff, which
definitely works in his favor because he's getting protected ab
he can just he'll take his walks instead. It up
for them if these other if the pitchers want to
choose to do that, because he's just not roly going
to expand. He will chase strike ball, breaking ball and
occasionally high fastball, but for the most part, weirdly, in

(40:40):
spite of all the strikeouts, he's pretty disciplined, so different animal,
the right makeup to do all this stuff. He knows
what he's there to do. He's nurtured the correct swing.
Kevin and him have done a great job together and
it's going to continue right through the World Series. Nothing's
going to change.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
I love your point about his confidence because he's the
same guy every day. And you ask anybody who has
played with Kyle, and he's been a bunch of places
now he's everybody's favorite teammate. He really is, and it's
just the way his demeanor, the way he carries himself. Yeah,
he's a forty home run hitter out of the box.
But guys love being around Kyle Schwarber.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Always upbeat.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
I've never seen the guy down, and that's gotta be
worth a lot, There's no question about that.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
Well, fearlessness, shirtlessness is contagious. And if you're if you're
a teammate of his and you're around him all the time,
you know a lot of times we walk into the ballpark,
guys will walk in and you have a little bit
of said, that little bit of doubt in your mind
regarding whatever he doesn't he doesn't like I said, he
could be going really badly, and there's no doubt in
his mind that he's gonna turn it around tonight. He's
gonna change it up tonight. It's gonna he's gonna be

(41:43):
the difference tonight. So I think there's a fearlessness component
to him that the other guys in a baseball since
the courageousness about him that these other guys play off of.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
All right, let's dive into some baseball one oh one
here when it comes to his strategy, and uh, it's
in kind of a new trend in the game today.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
It's the first and third situation.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
Here we saw Bryce Harper steel home on the back
end of by the front end of a double steel
situation first and third. So this happens a lot now,
and if you're watching games at home, be prepared for
these situations because they do happen a lot. First and third,
two outs, two strikes on the batter. What the offensive
team is trying to do here is they realize here

(42:24):
the run scoring potential is pretty low with two strikes
on the batter and two outs, and they know that
the defensive team is prioritizing getting that last out. You're
so close to getting off the field that you don't
care as much about defending the running game in that situation,
especially if there's a left handed hitter in the box.
That third basement is so far away from the runner

(42:46):
on third base, they're really not honoring his lead.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
So if you choose to throw down.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
The second base and don't get the runner, you were
risking a run scoring from third base. In this case,
it was a right headed hitter. I think it was
real Muto at the batter's box, But anyway, teams defend
this very differently, Joe, I've seen a lot of teams
that will not throw down at all, some teams that
will throw down. Obviously a lot depends on game situations,
score in ang those kinds of things. Runner, But in

(43:13):
this case I give credit to the Phillies that they
executed this perfectly.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
The runner stopped.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Actually, as the throw goes down the second base, don't
run yourself into that third out. Harper read the play correctly,
seeing that the throw is carrying past the mound. Now
the middle infield, I think was could tell Marte did
run up to meet the throw. He read the play,
read Harper breaking from third, and I think, if he
makes a good throw, he's got him at the plate.
But you know, when you do something like this, it's

(43:40):
like setting a runner from second base with two outs.
Make you put pressure on the other team to make
a throw under duress. And Marte made a poor throw.
He bounced it a little bit offline. Harper scores stolen base.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
There are a lot of.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Teams, I can tell you, Joe, and you know this,
they will not even throw down in that situation. With
two outs and two strikes on the batter, you give
the base up. In this case, Arizona tried to to
defend the stolen base and it costs them a run.
So if you're watching these games, be prepared for that, folks, because,
as we saw in Arizona, pulling the playoff defensively in

(44:17):
the major leagues these days is no guarantee teams are
going to do it.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
Well. There's a lot going on there again, Tommy, really good.
I mean for me, let's first and there, let's start.
You're saying it's a full count, two outs, right.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Not a full count, just two strikes.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
Oh okay, just two strikes. I'm sorry, there's two strikes,
two strikes on the hitter. For me, first of all,
what inning is it? That's a big thing for me.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
Yeah, this was early in the game. I think it
might have been the first or second inning.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
Right, So with me, that would be part of the
equation where I'm throwing the baseball if it's early in
the game. The big thing I always wanted to do
was stay out of the beginning. So under the situation
that you're describing, if we chose to throw through the
only way we come up and get the ball and
throw back to the players, we're absolutely certain that we're
going to have a chance, a solid chances. Runner to play. Otherwise,

(45:03):
would be satisfied with just catching the ball and getting
that runner out between first and second, because I've chosen
to stat of the beginning right now, I want the out.
I don't want this anything to continue. Some of this
could be based on who's on deck, and this guy
on deck versus my pitcher and this do I really
not like that at all. Normally the player talking about

(45:24):
happens with the bottom part of the batting order, guys
that you know you don't rely on a whole lot
offensively National League. If this pitcher's part of this equation somehow,
then you will take more chances to try to steal
this run first and third, and under those circumstances too,
more than like you would not throw the ball at
all because the hitter coming up is not very good
so early in the game, I would try to it

(45:48):
might sacrifice, permit the run and get the out now.
But we're talking to the playoffs now, so this might
be a little bit different. But this is how I
presented in spring training. And then the latter part of
the game again, what's going on specifically, I might be
more apt to throw under those circumstances. So all these
things come into play. Regarding the plays themselves, there's also
the opportunity to do a full arm fake by the catch.

(46:10):
You got a runner like Bryce Harper at third base,
it might not be a bad gig to go with
the full arm fake knowing that he's going to get
on that right foot early because the moment the catcher
releases the ball, he wants to break and come home.
And so that's I would imagine you're not going to
see Arizona throw through again if that presents itself, and
may have a full arm fake and have the ball

(46:30):
throw in the third base or just come up and
throw the ball at the third base period. These are
the kind of things you have to consider and think
about before the game begins. Know your opponent, know what
you guys are capable of doing. Arizona's catcher throws really well,
and I don't know how good men Martez, a shortstop
had a pretty good arm, but I haven't seen him
in a while. But the ball coming back, there's a

(46:52):
lot going on. It's a perfect throw from the catcher
to the middle back to the catcher again. Contact of
the game, All that stuff matters to me. So it's
not just a cut and dry play, And these are
the kind of things that try to evaluate in advance
of the moment.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
Yeah, and the runner has to evaluate as well.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
When you get to a two strike count, obviously the
runner und first has seen a couple of pitches. Maybe
do a little false break to see if middle endfielders move.
If you see the middle infielders, especially deep and away
from the bag, they're not covering. They're not throwing through.
If you see that third baseman well off the runner
around third base, they are not throwing through, especially if
you have any kind of a speed guy at third base.

(47:31):
If they're defending the run, that third basement is gonna
be a little bit closer to the run around third base.
So you're right, there's a lot of variables involved here.
One other situation where it came up and it was
not operated in terms of the first and third stolen
base is in game five, maybe Game four of alcs
A Brady who is in the box.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Dubon was on first, Altuve was on third.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
So you have two really good runners on the bases,
You've got two outs, a lefty Bradford on the mound
with Kyle Tucker, a lefty on deck. And two strikes
on a bray you, even though throughout the count I
didn't think the Rangers were going to go to throw through,
and Dubon did not run, and I was curious about that.

(48:16):
And when you think about it, here's what happened. If
Dubon runs and steals second base, They're going to walk
a bray you and pitch left on left to Tucker,
who's the much colder bad when compared to a bray you.
So the Astros left Dubon at first base on purpose
because that was the matchup that they wanted, a bray

(48:36):
you who hits a three run homer. I thought that
was brilliant in that case. And if you're Texas on
the other side, and maybe you have done this, Joe,
but I have not seen managers hardly ever walk to
get to a better situation because second base is open.
If the guy steals second base, then they walk a
braill you, which to me makes no sense. It's just

(48:58):
a base being open. What matchup do you want? If
you would walk a guy with second and third, why
wouldn't you walk them with first and third if the better.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Matchup is presented on deck?

Speaker 1 (49:09):
So I thought it was brilliant by the Astros not
to steal that bag. And by the way, the Rangers
do throw through, but they trust, as you mentioned him
to do that full arm fake if he sees, you know,
runner and especially with al two aon third, that might
be like Harper where you do that. Or they trust
their Midland fielders Simeon and sea or to execute that

(49:29):
play well because these are veteran guys they're paying half
a billion dollars to So I just think that was
interesting where I thought the first and third play was
in place and it was they opted not to to
make sure a brad you hit got rewarded with a
home run.

Speaker 3 (49:42):
Yeah, I mean, I I will just like from the
dugout till my first base coach, until the runners stay there.
Stay there, don't run for the reasons you're just talking
about right there. You definitely don't want to run right
there once you leave the base open. That happened to
me to exactly when it happened to me. It was
in Midland, Texas. I don't remember what year was. James
sap Brand was my hitter. They played behind run at

(50:02):
first base. I let him run and then they just
walked James and that was the last time that ever
happened to me. So that's that's part of the gig,
right there. You got it when you when you want to,
when you want them to pitch to your guy, I
should have had them. I should have my runner stay put.
So they pitched the James, but I didn't. But they
had their runner stay put, so they pitched a brave
and they benefited from that. That's that's all part of

(50:24):
the strategy in that particular moment. There's no question, and
I totally understand.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
That the strategy is great, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
I mean, if you're a fan watching these games at home,
and we all love it right the second guessing you
should have done this, you should have done that. I
can tell you that most people watching games a casual fan,
they're looking at baseball as a game of checkers, and
what's going on is chess. There are so many more
levels to decision making than the average fan knows. And

(50:52):
you know this, Joe, obviously, and a lot of it
has to do with what your players can do. You know,
Jim Leland was great, I thought, and he put it
well that you know, a manager's job is that you
put players in the best situation where they can succeed.
And for instance, asking a guy to bunt who's not
a good bunter, it's not a good idea.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
You know, maybe a good idea in a vacuum. Hey,
we need a bun here.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
But if a guy has never done it, don't ask
him to do it. If a guy can't handle the
ninth inning, he's better off on the seventh eighth inning,
don't ask him to close the game. All these things
come into play, and the calculus of what a manager
has to figure out it is so involved. I'll give
you another example real quick. We talked about Framber Valdez.
He's got the yips thrown on the bases, he really does.

(51:36):
And I asked Bruce Bocci, I asked Marcus Simon about
bunting on this guy.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Basically, they don't have a guy who can get a
bunt down, so that's not in play.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
I mean, like that Robbie Grossman had that swinging Brent
and Valdez on Q threw it away. But yeah, the
calculus Joe for a manager and the decisions that he
makes are just so so involved and has to be
done in real time, which is super fast. In these
postseason games. It's a so much more than what we're

(52:04):
watching on television.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
Quickly, I had a pitcher of Matt Garza who had
that same issue, and we were playing in the playoffs
against the Red Sox, and it was pretty obvious, I
mean very obvious with Maddie. So before the game he
was pitching. I can't remember which number. It might have been,
game seven, I'm not sure, but we were playing at
the trap. So Hickey, Jim Hicky, my pitching coach, took

(52:27):
guards down to al laying field and just worked on
PfP with guards on balls right back to him, throwing
the ball to the back to first base, primarily first
play the game, Cocoa crisp at the ball hard, right
back at Maddie, right back at him, and here we go.
He turns and he throws a bullet to first base,
out like a chest Ti throw to first base. He's out,

(52:50):
and and that ended everything right there. All you have
to do is one time, you have to show them
one time that you can do it. So Valdez can
show them one time he can do that. It stops everything.
Johnny Lester would not throw to first base. Tommy famb
takes this huge, huge lead at first and he gets
in a very uncomfortable situation and Johnny just basically lips

(53:12):
the ball over to Rizzo and fam is out by
ten feet. You just got to show them one time,
and it puts a deceit of doubt in their mind.
That's what it really comes down to. If you could
just alter their thinking just a little bit, you could
take them out of a program or a plan. So
it happened with Guards, and it happened with Johnny Lester
on that play first base. So Baldez, really, if you

(53:34):
could just complete one play decently, it'll change their minds.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
That's great stuff.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
I had no idea working on PFPS before a playoff game.

Speaker 3 (53:43):
That's awesome at alan at Alang, which was right down
the street.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Well, Hey, I think before this postseason began, Joe, we
both liked the Phillies a lot, right, I think we
both picked them to win. I think you had them
against Brandon Hyde's Orioles. I had them against the Houston Astros.
We'll see if we get there, but I'm guessing you've
seen nothing to.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Take you off of the Phillies so far.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
No, not at all. Not. Like I said, minus a
couple of tough outings by Kimber, they're already there. And
to their credit, you know, the two games that they
lost in Arizona, they rebounded yesterday really well, and that
just speaks to the to the toughest the caliber of
that group. So there's no reason to believe that they're
not going to go back to Philly and be able

(54:28):
to get this thing done. I absolutely believe that it's
going to be them, And like I said, Game seven
will be interesting. I think it's going to go Game
seven between the two Texas teams, and at that point
anything anything can happen at that point, but that's going
to be rather interesting. Before I move on, just one
other point. You're talking about everything. You've just been stating,
all the different scenarios that you presented. I really appreciate that.

(54:50):
I'd love to see more of that regarding reporting on
baseball games, because baseball games reported on primarily about bullpen
decisions and whether you bought the right pitcher in or not.
That's really pretty much the crux of what get what
you're talking about is the reason to me why the
game is so interesting and why I would want to

(55:11):
believe that youngsters would be more attracted to it because
it's such a thinking man's game. Is it's an intellectualism
to the game of baseball. So these are the kind
of things that Tommy's presenting that really are fascinating. And
these are the difference makers in the game to whether
the throw or not to throw, whether the pitch or
not to pitch this guy. You were talking about the
run around third base there when Bryce stole home. If

(55:34):
there's a left handed hitter up there, I used to
have my guy stand on the bag, stand on the bags,
then on the bag right on third base in order
to prevent that from happening at all. Because the left
hand hitter is shown via a chart, there's no way
he's going to get the ball to the third base side.
He doesn't do it. If he does, it's going to
be up to middle or on the pull side. So
this is the nuance of the game that I'd love
to see spoken about more or reported upon more in

(55:57):
a postgame situation. I don't know if the time permits.
I don't even know if if anybody believes anybody's interested,
But this is stuff to me that is very interesting,
and your presentations there around the money. And also you
like right down to your your definition, and you know
about the position of fielders infielders back in the middle,
meaning there's going to be no throat coming down to

(56:18):
second base, so just go ahead and take it. All.
This stuff is Germaine and that's the kind of stuff
I'd like to see discuss more.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Amen to that, brother, because I'm with you on in
the most part, just in a general sense, the way
games have reported covered whatever it does tend to be basically,
you know, an exercise and second guessing on bullpen decisions
that don't work out. It's basically it's all autopsy. What happened,

(56:45):
Tell me what's going to happen. Tell me what I
should be looking at as a baseball fan. That's what
I want to know. I think one of the best
things about baseball is the anticipation of action, even almost
more so than the action itself. We all love home runs,
but they happen out of the blue, right the idea
of what's going to happen next. If you can get
into the reasons why something might happen, and then if

(57:08):
it plays out or it doesn't play out, you've answered
a question. In your mind, and that's stimulating the idea
of looking forward in the game of baseball, to me
is more interesting then looking back. So the more we
can do that, I think that the better the experience
is for the reporter, the analyst, the viewer, whoever.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
That's the dugout. You're talking about the dugout right there,
and you know the reporting has really become an exercise
and outcome bias. Like you're saying, primarily your description of
looking into the crystal ball, Yeah, that's what you do
in the dugout. You're always working in advance of the moment. Always,
always are. You have to be. Sometimes it might just

(57:48):
be that any because sometimes it could be twinings in front,
whether it's with your pitchers, the potential pinch hitter, you know,
just little nuance that you may decide to interject because
in a game like the signs me miss a sign.
That's if you're looking at doug out after a miss sign,
that's the only time I'm going to be noticeably upset.

(58:11):
You wait all game, You've thought about this, You wait
all game for one particular moment to occur, whether okay,
first and third, the safety squete situation now I need
my hitter to get the sign, and you might run
around first base to do the right thing, you might
run around third base to do the right thing, and
they all need to get the sign in order to
get this done. And when you miss that sign, because

(58:32):
the situation is ripe, that really really does bother me.
So moments like that, when you you've worked really hard
to get to a certain point of the game, you
cannot miss a sign. And I know that happened. I
think in Baltimore in that game with the they missed
a sign. And then, like Zim used to say, when

(58:53):
they're missing signs, you're not managing. That was Zim's line
to me. You're not managing if the signs you're given
are not being gotten. And Preston gomet God, one of
the best baseball men ever, always accused us of making
our signs too complicated for players. Listen, if they can't
get your signs, what good are they? And it's true.

(59:15):
I mean, you always wanted to make things complicated because
you're worried about the other team getting your signs, whereas
your players can't. This is the stuff to me that
really needs to be doubbed into more deeply, and that's
what we're doing right here, right now, and all your
presentations have been right on the money.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
Hey real quick, Joe, did you ask for confirmation signs
for your players, especially in a safety squeeze or suicide
squeeze situation?

Speaker 3 (59:40):
No, I didn't because sometimes that's obvious, right I felt,
you know, normally it was certain guys in the lineup
that we're going to be the bunters, right, You're not
everyboike you said earlier, not everybody you can ask them
to bunt the safety squeeze, You're not. They're not good
at it. They can't do it. A lot of times.
With that in mind, the part of the batting order,
with being the guys in front of those potentially could

(01:00:02):
be the runner at third base and Heyward, we running
third base. God, I love running the play, you know,
or when Hobby was at third base, love running the play.
So who's hitting right now and how good are they
at this particular play, and then you really look forward
to that opportunity and obviously they're running first base selling it.
So it's normally like the same cachet of players working

(01:00:22):
this play based on the part of the batting order
and I'm not gonna have Bryce Harper, safety, Sueyson, or
Kyle Schweber, whatever. It'd be like Rojas in the lower
part of the batting order. Maybe even Brandon March possibly,
but not right now. So all of this stuff gets
kind of clumped together, and the same guys are normally
part of this particular play based on where they normally
hit in the batting order.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
Great stuff, and the postseason just getting better finally, by
the way, because we went the first eight series without
a series going the maximum number of games. So I'm
not sure if we'll get there in either LCS, but
we've got a chance.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
We had a great couple of games the other night.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Actually, it was the first day at baseball postseason history
where we had two games with comebacks in the eighth
inning or later. That was pretty cool. So it's starting
to heat up. I think October Baseball finally is here
in terms of the drama, the decisions, and we'll always
be here for you to break it all down, and again,
not just to break it down, but to anticipate what's

(01:01:21):
coming next. What's coming next is Joe Madden closing the
door for us here, taking care of the final frame
here where you got to end this latest edition of
the Book of Joe.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
Well, first of all, tell me again, great job. I
mean that to me is what situations or show should
be more like this. If you're talking about baseball and
day baseball any time of the year, but especially this
time of the year, this is where your mind should go.
This is how you should watch a game. So for me,
I went to Herman Melville again, the guy that talked
about your insular ta heat. You go there when you're
having difficult moments. But this is outstanding and this is

(01:01:53):
something I really try to get across to place every
place that I work. It is better to fail in
originality than to succeed in imitation. That resonates with me
so soundly. Everybody wants to always be the copying Listen,
there's times that you do look at something that you like,

(01:02:14):
when you try to decipher it and put your own
spin on it or methods on it. But go out
there and be an original, man, Go out there and
be an original. Just make it be only one of you,
and when that happens, something special occurs.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
Look at the Phillies right now, Oh man, I love
love that advice. Joe and in any endeavor, any field.
And he made me think of the great Vin Scully
when he started out as a young broadcaster. Was Red Barber,
who told him basically the same thing in different words.
You know, Vin Scully is like, you know, I want
to be like you. I want to be one of

(01:02:49):
the great broadcasters. How do I do that? I basically
told him, be yourself, because when you try to essentially
copy someone else that you admire, as read Barber told him,
you're watering your own wine. There's only one of you.
There's nothing better than the original, the uniqueness of you,
and that's the great to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
They don't do.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
They learn from others, absolutely, but the sense of self
has to be unique, and that's what makes you you,
is what you really have to succeed with. So Harmon Melville,
that was a really good one. Joe, that works any
day of the year.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
That's the organization I'm looking to work for right there.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
All right, Well, we'll have to find that organization. There's
not too many left like that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
But it's the Book of Joe organization, that's what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Hey, lots of postseason baseball to talk about. Next time.
We'll be right back with you right here to break
it all down. Thanks Joe, Thank you, Brother be Well
b thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
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