October 1, 2024 • 48 mins
In this episode of 'The Book of Joe' Podcast, Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci put playoff time aside for a moment to discuss the passing of a baseball legend. Pete Rose was polarizing while still being an ambassador for the game. Joe talks about how Pete played the game in a way that's no longer allowed. Tom looks back at a story he wrote after driving from Los Angeles to Las Vegas with Pete behind the wheel of his Bentley. Onto the Playoffs, Tom and Joe take their first look at the wildcard matchups. Who is the one team that might shake things up a bit?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there and welcome back to the Book of Joe
podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden.
Playoff Baseball is here, Joe, you get something to kind
(00:28):
of go through your bones and your blood to tell
you that it's a little bit different now watching baseball.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Sosian I used to laugh about it behind the cage
during batting practice into September getting October, and at one
point I said, boy, it's football where I could smell football.
Whether he says no, no, no, it's it's postseason, whether
it's playoff weather, and it is. You know, when you
get a taste of that as a professional baseball player,
(00:55):
as a major league guy, man, you can't get enough
of it. Everybody talks about winning the World Series, and
I agree everybody wants to, but getting to the playoff
is very special on an annual basis, and you can
never take that for granted. So to get to the
dance was always the most important thing. Of course, you
wanted to win the ultimate price. However, just getting there
and participating right now this time of the year is different.
(01:17):
Energy is different. I always talked about September brings its
own energy. Everybody was worried about being fatigued or tired,
but if you're in a run, September provides its own energy,
and of course that definitely October does.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
So yeah, it's exciting time of the year. It's the
best time of the.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Year to be a Major League Baseball player, but you
have to earn the right to get there.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
We will break down the four Wildcard series, and we've
got some really good matchups and it's two of the
best days of the year because days one and two
of the Wildcard Series you've got nine to ten hours
of playoff baseball straight on through. It's awesome. But you know,
we must start with the passing of a baseball legend.
(02:00):
And I know that word gets thrown around a lot,
but Pete Rose was a true baseball legend, and Joe
Pete Rose is one of those guys. And I knew
Pete for almost forty years, if not more. Where of course,
he's the all time hit king two hundred and fifty
six hits, but he also has transcended the game and
(02:21):
is a near mythological figure in American culture. And I
think about the short list of baseball outsized personalities and
characters along the lines of a babe ruth, a satchel page,
a shoeless Joe Jackson. Pete Rose is in that group.
I mean, in the eighties and the nineties, you had
(02:44):
mentioned Pete Rose's name on a sports talk show on
radio and the lines would light up and stay lit
like a Christmas tree for hours. He was polarizing. Yes,
he was one of the great ambassadors of the game,
and yet he's shamed the game by violating one of
its most sacred rules, Rule twenty one. Anybody who's got
an obligation to particip peyton the game is barred from
(03:07):
placing any bet on that game, whether for or against
the team that you are employed by. It took him
about seventeen years to even admit that that's in fact
what he did when the evidence was incontrovertible. Give me, Joe,
your take when you heard about the passing of Pete
Rose and some of the first things that came to mind.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, it was just the first thought, you know, after
the shock of hearing it, is that. And he never
got to the Hall of Fame while he was alive.
I mean, still, this might be off the track a
little bit. But I thought, once, this gambling addiction, whatever
that we have with it right now, that's become so prevalent,
(03:49):
with all the different associates, all this stuff we're betting
is appropriate and actually in stadiums almost anymore, actually it
is because of your cell phones. I thought he should
immediately been admitted to the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I did, I did. I of course he did.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Whatever he did was wrong, absolutely wrong, one hundred percent wrong.
But I think we've we've kind of relaxed our our
stance on this at the point where that I really
wanted that to be kind of a gesture at that point.
He definitely deserves to be there. And again, I guess
in the the evidence he was guilty. Okay, I think
he served his time.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I do so. Anyway, I that was the first thought
that I had.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
The next thing is, yeah, the way he played the game,
how hard he played the game, his passion for winning,
the you know, the collision with Fosse, all that stuff
demonstrate it a way that the game was played.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
No longer is played that way. It's not permitted to
be played that way.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
We're worried about guys getting hurt, and you know the
game in and of itself athletic sports, there's always an
opportunity to get hurt, whether it's a collision at the
player or Anthony Rizzio getting hit on the hand by
a pitch and now having probably missed the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
So I never I've always had a hard time with all.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
That when you when you seek to legislate against aggressiveness,
because he was. He was aggressive and four thousand whatever
hits are part of his aggressive nature and how he
went about his business, right to watching the ball go
back into the catcher's mid after every pitch.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Everything he did was unique to him, and it was great.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
And any coach alive would tell you that you want
all your guys to play with that kind of intensity,
and he did so. And the last point, I mean,
the last time I had the conversation with him was
at a card show and then walking in the back
room and all of a sudden he's sitting there. Didn't
realize it was going to be there. Say Joe, what's up,
hi Pete. He says that, By the way, talk to me.
He says, I never understood why he hit the picture eighth.
Could you get into that a little bit? More deeply.
(05:36):
That was his last the last conversation I had with
Pete a couple of years ago in Chicago. So, like
you said, he's polarizing. You go back and forth the
greer or disagree with what I just said. I believe
what I've thought about it a lot, and I firmly
believe that one of the true and you talked to
the one guy he didn't mention is the guy that.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I think he's most closely lined to in a way
that he played was Ty Cobb.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
That's you know, that's my comp for him for the
years that he played. Ever haven't seen Ty Cob play,
But that was also like a polarizing, legendary figure.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And that's who he is. That's who he is. It's
just too bad.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
I really do wish he had been able to achieve
the Hall of Family was alive.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, you think about it, Joe. I mean, he grew
up in Cincinnati, played for his hometown team. But think
about he was not big, he was not fast, he
was not strong, he was not athletically gifted, and yet
he virtually willed himself to more hits than any player
who ever played the major league game. He took more
(06:35):
bats than anybody who ever played, and to his point
of pride, almost as much as the hits, he played
in more winning baseball games than any major leaguer in history.
And that's what he was about. I think Pete Rose
was addicted to winning, and unfortunately that carried over to
his gambling habit. And I'll disagree with you slightly here
(06:55):
because yes, our norms have certainly changed in this culture.
What was once forbidden is now encouraged when it comes
to gambling. But one thing that has not changed is
that Rule twenty one. And you know that when you
join the club of Major League Baseball that there is
no second chance when it comes to Rule twenty one.
You can argue the rule is too stringent, but it's
there for a reason. I actually think it's even more
(07:17):
needed now because gambling is so prevalent. You can bet
all you want, but do not place a bet on
a game that you have an obligation to perform in.
And that's where he couldn't stop himself.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Yeah, I agree, no this, I'm not disagreeing with the rule,
not at all. I just think that he's paid his
debt based on the years, even though it took him
a while to come out and come clean. I guess
eventually he did do that. And there's just there's this
part of this. I cannot stand the fact that when
I like love watching the nightly news, when I watched
nightly news, we advertise illness and disease and pharmaceuticals, and
(07:52):
we also advertise gambling and betting. It was driving down
to golf tournament yesterday, cal Ripken's down in Maryland and
I'm driving down listening to MLB, and there's all of
these these these ads to advertise the different personalities have
to read and regarding betting, and you know, get out there,
make sure you get your bet in.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Before the you know, the end of the day, particularly game.
I don't like that stuff. I really don't.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
And I think it's really taking us down a bad
path young people, earning your money whatever, and then making
it so easy to lose your money.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I don't like it. I just don't like it. I don't.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I think it smells a little bit. So I'm not
disputing number real twenty one. That's not my point. My
point is in his case, I think he's done his
time in a sense. And furthermore, I think we were
going in the wrong direction with encouraging betting.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I don't understand that. I never will. You know, you
work hard to earn.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Your money, just frivously throw it away by becoming easily addicted.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
We're encouraging addiction there too. I don't like it.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
So that's that's the one part of what we're doing
right now that really bothers me a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, I'm with you on that, Joe, And I mentioned
I knew Pete fairly well and worked with him at
Fox when he was there for a while. I love
being around him. He's a great storyteller. I think the
man had a really good heart. He did have some
demons that he had to deal with, like all of us.
But I can tell you, Joe, one of the favorite
stories that I've written at Sports Illustrated was nine years
(09:15):
ago when I drove with Pete Rose from Las Vegas
to Los Angeles two hundred and sixty seven miles and
Pete was behind the wheel of his Bentley wo And
if you can bear with me, because I thought it
was one of the most fascinating interviews I've ever done.
You know, Pete totally unplugged captive audience for basically four
(09:38):
and a half five hours, nothing off the record, and
it was Pete Rose revealing himself. And obviously he's an
open book, so it was a fascinating interview. I just
wanted to read a couple of paragraphs here from the
beginning and the end of that piece that I think
would give people an idea of not just how crazy
(09:59):
that ride was, but who Pete Rose was. Love or loathe.
Pete Rose is a uniquely American institution, not unlike Mount
Rushmore with a grand canyon, but more like Coney Island, Branson, Missouri,
Cadillac Ranch south of the Border, Graceland, the world's largest
ball of twine, and yes, Vegas baby. They are melting
(10:21):
pots of kitsch entertainment and the narratives we affix to
them in the way a child draws in a coloring book.
Here's the outline. Make of it what you will. Rose
signed out of a high school with his hometown team,
and without much size, speed or strength. It became the
all time hit king. The effort in Rose defind him
even more than the prolific results, an endearing quality in
(10:43):
a country built on the notion of raising yourself up
by the bootstraps. The American dream and spikes, but hucksterism, roguishness, commercialism,
and deceit all were part of the Rose Playbook two.
And if we're being honest, that's America too. Actually, nobody
wears bootstraps anymore. Fame and it's a tenant. Commerce favors
(11:05):
the shrewd as well as the earnest leaving Las Vegas
on I fifteen West and a two hundred thousand dollars
car with a bank teller's son who never attended college
and who was engaged to a playboy model more than
half his age. I realize what's on this side of
the windshield is just as American as what's on the
other side. Great ribbons of concrete and asphalt lay before
(11:28):
us like arteries and veins, throbbing with the pulse of
everyday life, as we, like so many others, who dreamed
to make it in this land head west for something better.
That's how that journey started with Pete Rose Joe, And
you know, he kind of bared himself to me how
much it hurt when Barti Matti stood up there. He
(11:48):
thought he had an agreement. Pete did that bart had
made no findings on whether he bet on baseball or not.
And Pete thought he could reapply to baseball in a
year and be readmitted in a year. And there was
nothing in the formal agreement that found that Pete Rose
bet on baseball. But at the press conference, when a
reporter asked Giamatti, did Pete Rose bet on baseball? Giamatti
said yes, and that crushed him. He really didn't own
(12:13):
up to it, as I said, for a good fifteen
to seventeen years, and thought he could work his way
back into baseball, and it hurt him, There's no question
about it. And I learned that on the card Rode.
Pete Rose loved baseball as much as anybody I've come across.
So when he was banned from baseball, he was put
on his own elbow. He was a man without a country.
(12:34):
When I worked with at Fox Joe, when we did
pregame and postgame shows, we had to set up the
desk in areas of the stands or outside the ballpark
because Pete Rose literally was not allowed to enter a
Major League ballpark and especially on the field without permission
of the Commissioner's office. I'm sure that hurt him because
of how much he loved the game devastated him.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
I mean, that's really.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
If you really consider all of that, that first of all,
a great writing man, that's really I mean, I didn't
know you had done that.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
That's pretty interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
You had that ride with him, and I could be
so entertaining, like you said, and well, what a memory
for you personally too. But beyond all that, I did again,
I didn't realize the agreement with Giamatti and you just said,
there's absolutely capsulates everything. He just loved the game of baseball,
absolutely loved the game of baseball. At least to be
able to go out and do card shows, and I
know that it was part of his income too, but
(13:26):
to get there and just press the flesh with the
fans at that point had to be very helpful to
him because to not be able to just walk into
a ballpark at any time or become part of a
staff or whatever, because at that time easily could have
seen him becoming part of a staff if eventually he
was permitted to or at least be part of, you know,
coming to a ballpark, even just to sign autographs in
a ballpark. Could not do that. It's difficult. It's difficult
(13:48):
to understand all of that. I know he did something wrong,
and listen, I'm all about you know, you have to
earn the right to be punished too, in a sense,
so and he was, But to strip him of all
of that, his dignity as a human being, as a
former major legue, one of the greatest Major League Baseball
players ever, just by hitting singles and running hard to
first base and head first slide when he was actually airborne,
(14:11):
and playing every position on the field possible because that was,
like you suggested, the best chance for the team to win.
All this stuff matters too. At some point you have
to balance it all out and come to some kind
of conclusion here. So what point do you just lighten
it up a little bit? But at one point, like
I said, does he actually has he actually served time
in regards to the twist crime and eventually did the
(14:34):
punishment fit the crime to the point where he still
passes away and is not able to be admitted to
the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
I think you know, we all have to look in
the mirror sometimes none of us are perfect, and absolutely
he was not. And like you said, he's not afraid
to admit it either. He'll tell you exactly what happened.
He told you exactly what had happened, So I listened.
I'm always was a Pete Rose fan. I loved the way,
and again coming from where I come from and how
we played the game, and being a former coach and
a manager, you look for guys that's just purely want
(15:04):
to win the game, and we'll do whatever it takes
to win the game, and really do with the group
asks you to do. The manager of the front office,
whatever he did that, he did all that stuff, and
then again he was stripped of his ability to participate
on a daily basis into one thing that mattered most
to him. There's nothing else that mattered more than him.
I had to argue that Estavy didn't mean as much to.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Him as being a part of a baseball situation.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
So, yeah, it's sad. It's a really sad story. There's
going to be a lot written now. Probably the movie
is going to come out at some point in the
near future. But I like Pete Rose, and it's sorry
to that end it this way.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, it is sad. I mean, there's no question about it,
because again we know how much baseball meant to Pete Rose,
and I think he had a lot to offer the
game of baseball and he could not do that in
an official capacity for most of his adult life, at
least after the banning. Yeah, there already have been movies.
There will be more. There have been books, there will
be more. Pete Rose read a couple himself. Actually, he
(16:03):
had a funny line and he said, I think I've
written more books that I've read. That was Pete Rose.
I mean, he was just as many hits as he had.
He had more one liners than hits. It's just an
amazing guy. So just to put a bow on Pete,
let me read you how I wrapped up our trip.
After two hundred and sixty seven miles with Pete Rose
(16:23):
and a Bentley, going through the Mojave Desert and everything
else between Vegas and Los Angeles, Rose pulls the Bentley
into a rental car parking lot where I will pick
up a bit more modest set of wheels to take
me to a downtown hotel. Two hundred and sixty seven
miles passed quickly. I thank him for his generosity of
sharing his ride and his time. He pops the lid
(16:46):
of the trunk where I have placed my suitcase atop
a scattering of magazines and assorted papers, as if a
file had spilled open. Then I pushed the button on
the trunk to close the lid. As it shuts, I'd
noticed for the first time his Nevada license plate Hit King.
I have to laugh. It's the ultimate rose accessory, better
(17:06):
than cream colored Ostrich boots. What a country. The scrappy
kid from Cincinnati who was thrown out of baseball is
engaged with thirty four year old playboy model and drives
a Bentley financed with the worth of his signature and
festoon with a hit King license plate. Reconfigure his life.
Does the road teach us nothing? This is America, land
of gambling and entrepreneurs, hucksters, singing cowboys, artists and golden dreamers.
(17:32):
And that's just on the drive from Vegas to La
Rose fits. He is roadside America. He is real life.
He is a real life David Hockney joiner. One picture
made from hundreds, a quirky collage that invites different perspectives. Hustler, huckster, dreamer, rogue, commoner, entertainer, legend,
(17:54):
ambassador are but a few of the appellations from which
to choose, but one that can't be denied. His seventy
four year old grandfather looking for a second chance. I
give the butt of the Bentley a gentle tap, the
way ballplayers do to one another, for both the job
well done or the wish of better luck next time.
I watch as the Bentley rolls off the hit King reminder,
(18:17):
getting smaller and smaller until I can no longer read it,
but I know it's still there.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I can't comment. That's outstanding. That really wraps it all up,
very nicely. Well done, Tommy, I didn't know you did that.
It's outstanding.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah. Like I tell people, Pete Rose, the legacy is complicated,
right because you can see it from so many different angles.
But Pete Rose was not complicated. He hid nothing. There
was no hitting agendas. He was a guy who didn't
pull punches. He wasn't honest with the truth as far
as admitting his gambling problem for many years. But he
(18:54):
lived life the way he played baseball. And you mentioned it, Joe,
that that All Star game with running at the Ray Fosse,
a game that literally didn't matter. Pete Rose knew no
other way to go headlong through baseball in life, just
one question.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
And you did say he played in more winning games
than anybody ever. Yeah, he did see that.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
That's it right there there, enough said you know, you
never let get in the way of anybody's great andness.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
I don't even know if he'd had a chance to
play in today's game by just being a single sitter.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
And like you said, didn't run that well whatever, wasn't
the greatest defender, didn't have the strongest arm, but he
just won. And you really have to consider that. So
that's another part of it that's very interesting. Who he
is and who he was or he was to the
game and from now and forever in today's world, would
even be permitted to get that many hits?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Would he even be permitted to play as long as
he did?
Speaker 3 (19:47):
And at the end of all that, you just have
to really evaluate him. One one thing, played in more
winning baseball games than anybody ever. Wow, that that just
screams that you right there.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, it does. So. Our condolences to the family of
Pete Rose. And it's important to remember as people measure
and weigh his life. And it's easy to point out
the mistakes. They're so darn public and well chronicled but
we must remember the absolute joy he gave to so
many people with the way he played baseball. Just the
(20:19):
way he played the game was attractive to so many
people that even in his later years, people responded to
Pete Rose as if you will one of them, you know,
a commenter, they could relate to a real blue collar
baseball player, defined not so much by his skills, but
by his will. And that's how I think we should
(20:40):
remember Pete Rose.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
He made the walk entertaining right he wanted to see.
He's the only guy that could possibly make the walk entertaining.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
How he ran down the first space enoughset.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Eighty three years old, Pete Rose. When we get back
on the Book of Joe podcast, we will break down
the exciting wild Card series coming up. I'll see if
Joe sees any upsets in the offing. We'll get to
that right after this. All right, Joe, Here we are
(21:16):
wild Card series coming up, best two out of three,
all in the home park of the higher seed. First
of all, I think about the journey of the Mets
have been on here. Just incredible. They win on the
last day of the season, well, on the last Sunday
of the season in Milwaukee, take a plane to Atlanta.
Win it. Just an amazing instant classic of a game
eight to seven over the Raves. To get it the postseason,
(21:37):
get on a plane and fly back to Milwaukee where
they will be facing the Brewers again. Joe, it may
take you back to your twenty thirteenth season when you
got to play a one hundred and sixty third game
and we're flying all over the place. What was that
experience like? Because I'm a firm believer that as much
as the media likes to make a big deal out
of the travel with the schedule, to me, the greater
(21:59):
the challenge, the higher the reward, that getting through something
like that can really palat team.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Absolutely, there's so much energy involved that that wasn't even
a concern the travel, where you're going, with time you
got in at night, what time you go to the ballpark.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Nothing. I mean that was at twenty thirteen. I didn't
realize the year.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
But first of all, we had to win on Sunday
in Toronto and we're playing the Blue Jays in Toronto.
We had to win that game in order to possibly
get into that playoff game with Texas, and in that game,
I got kicked out of that game we were playing,
and it's seventh inning, great thinning, whatever, and Adam Lynd's
coming up, and I bringing in Joel Peralta, who's an
absolute flyball pitcher, strikeout flyball pitcher. Linda a good left
(22:39):
tended hitter, but I like Parlta on lefties. So Joel
comes in and I we're having a hard time with
the home played umpire. So I get in there and
I get to the mountain. I said, okay, boys, I'm
going to watch the rest of this game from inside.
And Joel says, not a sick but don't do that, Socio,
don't do that. I said, no, it's about time I
got to do something about this. I can't stand it anymore.
So I stand there and I yet ejected by the
(23:01):
umpire balls and strikes at the mount.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I waited from the come out to the mount.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
I go inside, had a nice glass of wine, and
I watched the rest of the game.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
But the irony of the whole thing is that.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Peralta flyball pitcher, strikeout pitcher, I get in. No sooner
do I get in or start watching the game.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Chopper over the mound.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
I don't remember who the short stuff was at that
time comes over steps on second base, so it was
the first double player out of the inning. And eventually
we do win the game, which now means we go
to Texas. Go to Texas. I'm playing the one game playoff.
That's where I think David Price pitched a great game
that night where he had really had a difficult time
before that. So we go to Texas win that game.
And I also believe that's where Kevin Kiermaier debuted late
(23:38):
in the game as a late any defensive replacement. He
had not even played in a major league game, but
he played his first game in an actual playoff game there.
So then we get on a plane, we fly to
Cleveland and we played Cleveland and Cleveland and Alex Cobb
was magnificent and Delman Young hits a big home run
on the fourth inning and he was a right handed hitter.
They had a right handed pitcher, and again I think
(23:59):
it was Salazar A Kurosco. Always get those two guys confused,
but it's a reverse splip guy.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
So I had an.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Argument with the you know, the lineup with the guys
before that, and I said, no, I want d Y
in there, because this guy's reverse split and d why
is going to go deep?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
And he did. So we beat Cleveland and I think
we had a day off.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
And then we had to play Boston for the in
the Wildcard Series.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So this the point. I guess that was hard.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Yes, you have the energy all this stuff, but what
happens is by the time you get to Boston, you
know your your pitching staff's kind of worn down. And yes,
sometimes the guys can get a little bit warmed because
that is a definitely a difficult march to go through
to get to that to the playoffs versus the Red Sox.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So I think we.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Got a little bit warned by all that. But as
we're going through the moment Toronto, Texas and Cleveland boom
boom boom, and having to win all of them, you
don't feel it.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
You absolutely do not feel it.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Last year Texas proved that with their their trek to
the World Series and how they did that. They're on
the road forever, so I think that's overplayed. I don't
think there's necessarily an our game home field advantage in baseball.
I think it doesn't matter to the visiting team. Were
so good at blocking out noise. I remember when we
beat the White Sox in Chicago in two thousand and eight.
(25:10):
They had to blackout going on. Came out for the
first game there and there's like lint flying over the
ballpark from the guys, everybody waving a black towel, And
you would think that'd be intimidating, but it was kind
of feeling because you just you're feeling the energy of
the crowd too. So I don't believe there's a real
home court advantage in baseball with on the road and
especially in the playoffs. But yeah, the trek is difficult,
(25:32):
but your energy is found. It just appears, but you
can't get worn down. And more than anything, you're pitching
could get worn down if you have to go through
something like that to get to the to the DS
where he had to play Boston, who was very well rested.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, I'm glad you said that, Joe, about home field advantage.
It gets so overrated in this game. It's nothing like
the NBA or the NFL. It does matter if you're
playing a close game because when you get to the
bottom of the eighth inning right as the home team,
you no longer have to defend the lead. You know,
you take the lead. Actually the ninth inning, that's where
(26:08):
the advantage is. You get the bat last in a
close game. But that's about it. And the numbers show that,
you know, the number is what wins for the home team.
So all that being said, do you give the Mets
a chance going up to Milwaukee best out of three?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
There's they're riding a wave right now. I just like Milwaukee.
Milwaukee are the latter day Rays, not Braves. They're the
latter day Rays. Maddie Arnolds running them and Murph and
I go way back also, and they can just see
how he runs the game. The guy's been, He's had
a few games under his belt. He knows what he's doing.
(26:47):
And Murph could be rather inspirationally, it could be funny,
could be caustic, he could be a lot of different things.
But Murs won. He's won everywhere he's been. So with
the Mets had to go through yesterday and Diaz, how
many pitches did he throw in two days just to
get to the to the point where they did win
that game. He's going to something like we went through
with the Cubs when I had to pitch WAYE. Davis
(27:09):
so much in the in the clinching game in Washington.
By the time he got to La, we lose a
big game because he wasn't ready to come back, and
I had to bring Lackey in the game late, and
Turner goes deep and all of a sudden everything changes.
So it's the big impact to me is the pitching staff.
And that's what I'm saying. That just kind of intimated
that with the Toronto, Texas Cleveland run. So I think
Milwaukee combo of their pitching staff arrest a more arrested
(27:32):
pitching staff, the Mets being kind of like stretched to
the point where it's very difficult.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
And like I said, I like.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
The way Milwaukee plays the game, and they pitch it
and they catch it. They're really good at both things.
They'll hit enough somehow. That's again with the Rays used
to get like to the point in the middle of
the season, you're twenty games over five hundred, you say,
you ask each other, how do we do this? You
do this every day by being consistent in those real
important factors. So the Mets are going to show up,
(28:00):
no question. I'm a big Mets fan. I love the
way they play. Love Mendoza has done a great job there, too,
But I just think Milwaukee has an edge based on
how they play, who they are, how they show up
every day, and I don't think any of that's going
to change. And actually I think they're going to get
all the way to the finals and play the Dodgers.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I'm skipping ahead, but I think they're going to last
a bit.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah, I'm with you on Milwaukee. I'll take the rested team,
rested pitching staff over the hot team with the New
York Mets. You know, I also think Joe, and I'm
with you. By the way, the Milwaukee Brewers may be
my favorite team to watch play baseball. They really are,
and they do look like a college team under Murph.
The way they hustle, guys will pitch in any spots
nobody complains. And the big thing for me is the
(28:41):
way they run the bases. I mean, they will turn
this series, as they have every game against the Mets
this year, into a track meet. The Mets just cannot
defend their speed on the bases. They take advantage of
the outfield of the Mets by running, taking extra bases
all the time. There's just so much team speed on
the Brewers. It's a bad matchup. For the Mets, who
really don't hold the runners well and walk too many guys.
(29:02):
And I always say this, the postseason games are competed
ninety feet at a time, even more so in the
regular season. The Brewers will start racking up some extra bases,
getting guys to third base with less than two outs,
getting into scoring position with two outs. So I just
think their team speed will be a difference in that series.
So we're on the same page there. Let's talk about
the other series now in the National League. The Braves
(29:24):
to get on a plane after they clinched in the
second game of a doubleheader Monday to go play the
San Diego Padres in San Diego. It looks like Chris
Sale with his back spasms, will not pitch in that series.
Tell me what you've got on Braves at the Padres.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Yeah, I mean again, you got the rested group who's
been really, really hot, meaning the Padres. I think Shilty
has done a great job there also, And again I
think his fingerprints are all over that his experience as
a managers really showing up there too. The way they
play there is as common most as professional as they've
been with the Ajas group out there and all the
(30:02):
different folks they brought in over the last couple years
of different managers, etc. Right now, they just seem to
they're fulfilling this kind of kind of a destiny in
a sense, regarding the people they brought in, the kind
of talent that they have, the superstars that they have.
They're playing well together, but they're playing a much better
game of baseball. It's a much more it appears a
more tighter group with winning being way more important as
(30:26):
opposed to branding as what I've seen in the past.
So I think they're coming together. And again I think
Atlanta is going to suffer the same way the Mets have.
I mean, that was not an easy day yesterday, losing
the first game, but I really and I'm not accusing
the Mets of mailing it in on the second one,
but the Mets, they just just wanted to get out
of town.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
They had to get out of town. They wanted to leave.
We're in it. This game really is.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Superfluous, truly was, and so the Braves still had to
really fight in that second game, and of course utilize
the Pitchanno saled in pitch. But it just tells me
that something's going on. They're a little bit more than
they're admitting to actually pitch them in that game, because
you can't take anything for granted after that. So a
lot of combination of factors working there. But I like
(31:11):
the Padres and what they're doing. They've been hot.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I don't think that's gonna lighten up. They do.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
They're they're very talented. They're very talented group, and I
think Atlanta just not the same Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Group this year. They've they've probably been hurt more than
anybody in a really severe way. So I like the Padres.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
I like the the newfound kind of unity and method
of play that the Padres have adopted. And I think
them they're getting close to being what a Milwaukee's like,
And so I liked I like them a lot in
this situation too.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, and I love what you said about the Padres, Joe,
the way that you put it that you know, winning
has become more important over branding, and there has been
a lot of churn on that roster in San Diego,
but it seemed like this year under Mike's Schultz, they
finally coalesced and understood what they are who they are
as a team without any any kind of the kind
(32:03):
of quiet drama that had been going out in their clubhouse,
especially last season when they did not live up to expectations.
So I think they've found their identity, They've found their way.
It's a very talented team, first of all, with some
really high end talent. But when I look at baseball
teams in the postseason, and it is different than the
regular season. To me, the Padres check every box more
(32:24):
than any team in the tournament right now. I'm talking
about starting pitchers who can go out and win a
game for you. We know bullpen's rule in the postseason,
but sometimes you need a starting pitcher to go out
there and shut a team down and win the game himself,
not just give your team a chance to win. I'm
talking about it starter goes out there and just deals
and takes that ball to the seventh or eighth inning.
(32:46):
They've got that in Dylan Cees, Joe Musgrove, and Michael King.
I don't even think you Darbush is going to make
the wild card roster to start out. They're so deep.
The other thing bullpen. Absolutely. I think I like their
bullpen as much as anybody's. Mike Schultz is not afraid
to close the game with different guys. He'll punch Suez
in there if there's a right handed lane somewhere and
(33:07):
have the Tanner Scott behind him. It's a really, really
deep bullpen before the deadline, some of their pieces they
use in a winner tie situation now moved up to
pitching the fifth or sixth. That's how deep they are.
And the last thing I want to check all the
boxes is an offense that puts the ball in play.
We've seen it time and time again that teams that
(33:27):
have a lot of strikeouts in the lineup, like Minnesota
just do not play well in the postseason because you're
not seeing the back of rotations of the middle of bullpens.
You're seeing premier guys who attacked the zone with swing
and miss stuff put the ball in play. Good things happen.
That's San Diego. So to me, I like the padres
a lot in that series.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, all great points. I totally agree with all of that.
The starting pitching.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
I hope that there's a renaissance with that resurgence of
that because it does matter, and if you want good bullpens,
this is like the first three games, but then you
have to play another series. In another series and here
we go. So there's there's that factor to be considered. Also,
of course, you've got to get to this next level
and you're not going to just leave a starter out
(34:12):
there just because if it needs to go to the bullpen,
you go to the bullpen, no question. But I still
I love the group that permits starting pitching to be
the engine that drives the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I think that's a big part of continued success and
that you just described there as like you always hear
the different phrases during the course of the season, the
teams that you know built for the playoffs or they're
only they're more built for the regular season than the playoffs.
So different teams are getting accused of different things. But
your conclusions are good. I think I think that's that's
all accurate. And again, the unification of the group and
(34:46):
how they're playing right now, it's gonna make all the
difference in the world. I think it's it's gonna be
fascinating to watch this and I like you're just talking.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
We just both agreed.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
I guess they've been walking in San Diego are going
to advance and that's that could be quite a series
if that.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Impact does happen. I don't even know how that. No,
that would not work that way necessarily, but eventually could.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah. Well, we'll see if we agree on the American
League side of the draw, Joe, because we got two
teams with eighty six wins that look dangerous right now
on the American League side. We'll dive into that after
this quick break on the Book of Joe. Welcome back
(35:30):
to the Book of Joe. Obviously, here Tom Berducci and
Joe Madden talking about the wild card series coming up
this week. The American League side has two eighty six
win teams from the Al Central. Raise your hand of it.
You had that before the season began, and both actually
have a chance to get through to the next round.
First of all, let's start with the Kansas City Royals,
(35:52):
who begin at the Baltimore Orioles. The Royals, Joe, lost
one hundred and six games last year. You've been in
this situation before, turning around a couple of teams from
one hundred loss seasons to the postseason and took you know,
the Rays and Eight all the way to the World Series.
Do the Royals have a chance against the Orioles.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yes, I'll tell you what's well. I think both teams
are finally able to breathe again. I mean, especially Kansas
City the way this all wrapped up, where they were
really struggling at the end. Detroit kept beating up on
him a little bit and they lost some kind of
a lead there and eventually started coming back. But there
were it was new found territory for a young group
(36:35):
right there, including their manager, Maddiekutaro. And I know Matt
really well. I think he's outstanding. This guy here really
has a wonderful demeanor to be a manager for many
years in the big leagues. He's got the brain to
be that, but he's also got the demeanor to be that.
He's he's got a slow heartbeat, and I really like
him a lot. So I think they're all able to
breathe again. I think they were, like, you know, probably
(36:56):
pressing a little bit. I've been there with the Angels
in two thousand and two specifically, and more than any
group that I've ever been on, that was the group
that really taught us how to win once we got
to the playoffs, once we clinched against Texas, and Texas
began to breathe again, and when you begin to breathe again,
you start playing again. Sometimes just getting to the dance,
you're able to relax. I mean, of course there's tension
(37:18):
in whatever, pressure, whatever, But when you work so hard
to get there, and you struggle to get there and
then you do, sometimes that that big exhale occurs and
all of a sudden, guys start playing like guys are
capable again that you recognize.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
And same it could be said for Baltimore.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
I mean the fact that they to come so much
lately and the Yankees spread it out and eventually win
that division.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
So Baltimore wasn't Baltimore again. They're pitching.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
There's something you know need to be desired there overall,
but nevertheless, both teams are breathing again. I guess that's
what I'm trying to get it. So this could be
a lot tighter than you think. It's going to be
more interesting. I'm a big Baltimore guy. I love Hider.
Hider is another one of my guys, a manager with
Baltimore and Brendon Hyde, and he's also got that same
kind of John Wayne's stuff going on that Maddy Kataro's
(38:05):
got so that's kind of interesting, and from that perspective,
it's kind of difficult. Although Hyder and I did work
together more than Matt and I did, so they're breathing again,
and that's the biggest thing. I mean, they're both talented,
they both got I mean, with Bobby Wit to me,
is like a more complete version of Roby Yell. And
Robyn Yett was pretty darn good, but Bobby wit Junior
is like a little bigger, little bit stronger I think
(38:25):
than rob and Robbin was great, and I'm not denigrating anything,
but I look at him and I think it's like
the twenty twenty four version of Robin yeu'. That's what
Bobby Witch Junior is. And then of course you got
Henderson on the other side. So there's a lot of
this going on. Both sides are breathing.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
I think it's gonna be a spectacular series.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah, I'm curious with Bobby Witt Junior. I love him
as well. I mean, he's the fastest guy into baseball
and he also hits thirty plus home runs and plays
a premier shortstop. I mean, it's just an incredible package
of skills he has. But in this situation, if I'm Baltimore,
there's no way I'm letting Bobby wit Junior beat me.
It's really not a deep lineup, but he's the one
you really really circle, and it'll be curious to see
(39:04):
how he, in his first postseason situation, handles that and
doesn't try it to force things offensively because I don't
think he's going to get much to hit and he's
a high energy guy, so I'll keep an eye on that.
I think Kansas City has a narrow path to win
this series, and that is through their starting pitching. Carl
Reagan's is really really good lefty with premier velocity and
(39:25):
outstanding change up and Seth Lugo has had a great
year for Kansas City and Baltimore did not really hit
well down the stretch. That to me, is the one
way Kansas City can win this series that their pitchers
go out there and just deal. Now, I'll give an
edge to the Orioles because I think with all of
their power is such a decided advantage. Even if they
(39:48):
don't hit really well, they can change the game with
one swing up and down the lineup. The Royals can't
do that, and that's what I think will be the
difference in this series. I think the Orioles can pop
a couple of balls out and win what I think
it will be a really really close series, But I
will lean towards Baltimore in that one, which brings us
to Detroit and Houston. Aj Hinch going back to Houston
(40:11):
to take his Tigers team, who are the They're the
it team down the stretch. With the way that they
played going up against the Houston Astros. We all know
the American League Championship goes through Houston. It has for
what seven eight straight years? Nothing's changed. The Astros are
a TV you just can't kill. They know how to
win in the big spots. They have really good starting pitching.
(40:32):
Do you give Detroit a chance against Houston, Joe, I.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Have Houston circled No. I like Houston here. I was
checking it out today. I remember last year the anomaly situation.
They played much better on the road than they did
at home. They think they've kind of rectified that a bit.
But Houston, the way they started and the way they concluded, Nick,
you said they're pedigree and how they respond to these
kind of moments. This is the kind of year that
(40:56):
Detroit I think you know, found their footing a bit obviously,
and they did. They were spectacular down the stretch. But
I mean they're their offense was playing better at the end.
But I still believe they can be explained a bit.
There's a lot of swing and missing that group. So
I just think Houston's pedigree does show up.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I think it shows up right here. The fact that
they had to struggle so hard to get there.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
I think they learned that, they taught themselves a few lessons.
It's really amazing but they've done and how they've done
it over the last like I said, seven years. I'm
such a big fan of that because I know how
difficult it is to do that. So I'm still going
to give the edge to Houston. I love with detroit
Son Scottie Harris, a friend of mine who's running that team.
I'm happy for that. I know aj I Apoachee the
boys coaching first base there too. But I still think
(41:39):
Houston's going to show up. It's going to be a
good series. But I do believe Houston's experience is going
to matter here, and especially the fact that it's there
and that they're playing better in their home ballpark.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Yeah, I'm with you. Houston started twelve and twenty four,
and there's just something about this team, and I think
it starts with jose L Tuove in that they're never satisfied,
you know, they're always hungry to win the next series.
I don't think there's anything different here. I like Detroit
a lot. I think they're dangerous because they're so young.
They're going to start, by the way, Joe, the youngest
(42:12):
team on the field in the postseason game since your
twenty sixteen Chicago Cubs. They might have as many as
seven players in the starting lineup twenty five years and younger,
which is crazy. But here's the difference. AG's gonna have
to use a little bit of different lineup because of
the left handers on Houston's side, with Kokuchi and starting
(42:34):
with Franburg Valdez. I would like Detroit a lot more
if they were seeing more right handed pitching. They are
much better lineup against righty's than lefties, and those two
lefties are throwing the ball really well for Houston, so
I think the matchup does not work in favor of Detroit.
They would have been better off getting Baltimore in the
first round, but it fell into the sixth spot to
(42:54):
get Houston. So I think we're agreement there on the Astros.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
On just one question on Valdez, I mean this guy,
he's really good, but I mean I actually like lefties
on him as much, if not more than I do
righty sometimes, did you do you happen to notice or
his splits any different right now?
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah? They can be. He's a difficult guy. He's basically
he's a premier ground ball machine, which is what I
love about him again the postseason, I think a lot
of it. Even more so is defending the home run.
He does not give up home runs. His command can
get a little squarely at times, but he's been really
good lately. I'm with you on the on the lefties
that it wouldn't necessarily scare me and run off some
(43:34):
of my you know, Kerry Carpenter's Parker Meadows and those
guys on the left side from Detroit. We'll see what
aj does with the lineup. I just think left or right,
he's just a beast to deal with.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Well, He's got the spin on his pitches, the change
up so good, and I think it mitigates a little
bit against the left on left and that's I guess
what we're talking about, And I agree I would. If
I was Detroit, I would not run away from my
lefties necessarily, right, I'd have to really look at the
what I this is a situation. I would look at
a video my guy swings, my writing swings versus what Valdez's.
(44:08):
The shape of his pitches look like, the fastball's curveball
and the change up. And then there's some guys I mean,
I wouldn't. There's some writings I would just would not
like based on how there's swing planes, work up match
up against the shape of the pitches, and I would
look at that stuff before different series, and especially when
the This is where numbers are really important, when when
(44:28):
the numbers indicate reverse And I've done that successfully a
lot with reverse split guys, and a lot of them
being lefties. So don't run away from it. If that's
your group. I think it'd be kind of interesting if
they stayed with it.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Curious.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah, and you're dead on, by the way, from Rivaldez
is a reverse split guy. Left handers hit two fifty two,
right handers to fourteen, and left handers do also have
a little bit more slug there. So we'll see it.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Yeah, play them, just play the lefties.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
Well, it's a great timey or Joe. I can't wait
for these series urgency and we'll see who gets through
this first round. But there'll be a surprise or too.
We know that, and we saw it last year where
higher seeds are getting knocked out early. Can't wait for it.
In the meantime, as I always do, Joe, I'm going
to ask you to close this episode of the Book
(45:18):
of Joe. Who are you going to today?
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Well, you know, driving back from the golf tournament, I
was listening to some of the Braves and the Mets,
and I've you know, I've been on the Mets all year.
I kind of like a lot of them, what they've
done and how they've done it, and.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
I like the way. I like the the overall attitude
of the group.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
I like, I like your manager, and just the way
they play in a sense. And they've had some crappy moments,
you know, they have some difficult moments.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
They've and they've.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
Stayed with it. So the road to perseverance lies by doubt.
And I think anytime that we have we met with
difficult situations or uncomfortable situations, the.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Big thing is doubt. Doubt slash fear are always popping
in there for whatever reason. We don't know. It's things.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
We just were just subject to doubt and fear. We
just it's a part of the DNA. That's the fighter
a fighter fly syndrome kind of thing. But we always
were all subject to that. But to do what the
Mets have done, but eventually what Detroit has done in
this particular season, there's a lot of perseverance involved, and
you have to get beyond doubt and fear in order
(46:25):
to really persevere. And once you've once you learned how
to do that, it's not like it's the weird thing
about it's not one hundred percent lasting. It's like it's
always going to be. They always have to earn perseverance
in a sense. You got to you gotta show up
every day, you gotta believe, you got to grind through
whatever they thought is. So I think the Mets really
show this to me that the perseverance component with them.
(46:46):
So the road to perseverance lies by doubt. And after
everything I just said, if there's one group that I
think it's still persevere and be the group that does
something crazy good, would be the Mets.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
I love that, and that's a great theme for this
Wildcard round. Because the Mets were started out five, they
were eleven games under five hundred. The Astros were twelve
games under five hundred. The Tigers were under five hundred
in the middle to late August. The Royals had a
seven game losing streak in September. They lost one hundred
and six last year. The Braves, with all their injuries
to a Counya and Riley and everybody else, are still
(47:21):
breathing here in the postseason. The Brewers lost their manager,
their closer, they're starting pitching ace and here they are
back in the postseason. It's amazing what the length of
the season can do as far as challenges. But as
I said earlier, Joe, the greater the difficulty, the greater
the challenge, the higher the reward. We will see who
gets rewarded in this first round to move on to
(47:43):
the LDS and when we get there, we'll be back
to break it down. Hopefully you're back with me, Joe,
to talk about the next round when we get there,
and can the Dodgers and the Yankees get through the
next round? That's what it'll be Our next discussion, It's
gonna be fun. Man enjoyed it. Joe, Thanks your two
brother Thanks. The Book of Joe podcast is a production
(48:10):
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there and welcome back to the Book of Joe
podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden.
Playoff Baseball is here, Joe, you get something to kind
(00:28):
of go through your bones and your blood to tell
you that it's a little bit different now watching baseball.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Sosian I used to laugh about it behind the cage
during batting practice into September getting October, and at one
point I said, boy, it's football where I could smell football.
Whether he says no, no, no, it's it's postseason, whether
it's playoff weather, and it is. You know, when you
get a taste of that as a professional baseball player,
(00:55):
as a major league guy, man, you can't get enough
of it. Everybody talks about winning the World Series, and
I agree everybody wants to, but getting to the playoff
is very special on an annual basis, and you can
never take that for granted. So to get to the
dance was always the most important thing. Of course, you
wanted to win the ultimate price. However, just getting there
and participating right now this time of the year is different.
(01:17):
Energy is different. I always talked about September brings its
own energy. Everybody was worried about being fatigued or tired,
but if you're in a run, September provides its own energy,
and of course that definitely October does.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
So yeah, it's exciting time of the year. It's the
best time of the.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Year to be a Major League Baseball player, but you
have to earn the right to get there.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
We will break down the four Wildcard series, and we've
got some really good matchups and it's two of the
best days of the year because days one and two
of the Wildcard Series you've got nine to ten hours
of playoff baseball straight on through. It's awesome. But you know,
we must start with the passing of a baseball legend.
(02:00):
And I know that word gets thrown around a lot,
but Pete Rose was a true baseball legend, and Joe
Pete Rose is one of those guys. And I knew
Pete for almost forty years, if not more. Where of course,
he's the all time hit king two hundred and fifty
six hits, but he also has transcended the game and
(02:21):
is a near mythological figure in American culture. And I
think about the short list of baseball outsized personalities and
characters along the lines of a babe ruth, a satchel page,
a shoeless Joe Jackson. Pete Rose is in that group.
I mean, in the eighties and the nineties, you had
(02:44):
mentioned Pete Rose's name on a sports talk show on
radio and the lines would light up and stay lit
like a Christmas tree for hours. He was polarizing. Yes,
he was one of the great ambassadors of the game,
and yet he's shamed the game by violating one of
its most sacred rules, Rule twenty one. Anybody who's got
an obligation to particip peyton the game is barred from
(03:07):
placing any bet on that game, whether for or against
the team that you are employed by. It took him
about seventeen years to even admit that that's in fact
what he did when the evidence was incontrovertible. Give me, Joe,
your take when you heard about the passing of Pete
Rose and some of the first things that came to mind.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, it was just the first thought, you know, after
the shock of hearing it, is that. And he never
got to the Hall of Fame while he was alive.
I mean, still, this might be off the track a
little bit. But I thought, once, this gambling addiction, whatever
that we have with it right now, that's become so prevalent,
(03:49):
with all the different associates, all this stuff we're betting
is appropriate and actually in stadiums almost anymore, actually it
is because of your cell phones. I thought he should
immediately been admitted to the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I did, I did. I of course he did.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Whatever he did was wrong, absolutely wrong, one hundred percent wrong.
But I think we've we've kind of relaxed our our
stance on this at the point where that I really
wanted that to be kind of a gesture at that point.
He definitely deserves to be there. And again, I guess
in the the evidence he was guilty. Okay, I think
he served his time.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I do so. Anyway, I that was the first thought
that I had.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
The next thing is, yeah, the way he played the game,
how hard he played the game, his passion for winning,
the you know, the collision with Fosse, all that stuff
demonstrate it a way that the game was played.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
No longer is played that way. It's not permitted to
be played that way.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
We're worried about guys getting hurt, and you know the
game in and of itself athletic sports, there's always an
opportunity to get hurt, whether it's a collision at the
player or Anthony Rizzio getting hit on the hand by
a pitch and now having probably missed the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
So I never I've always had a hard time with all.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
That when you when you seek to legislate against aggressiveness,
because he was. He was aggressive and four thousand whatever
hits are part of his aggressive nature and how he
went about his business, right to watching the ball go
back into the catcher's mid after every pitch.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Everything he did was unique to him, and it was great.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
And any coach alive would tell you that you want
all your guys to play with that kind of intensity,
and he did so. And the last point, I mean,
the last time I had the conversation with him was
at a card show and then walking in the back
room and all of a sudden he's sitting there. Didn't
realize it was going to be there. Say Joe, what's up,
hi Pete. He says that, By the way, talk to me.
He says, I never understood why he hit the picture eighth.
Could you get into that a little bit? More deeply.
(05:36):
That was his last the last conversation I had with
Pete a couple of years ago in Chicago. So, like
you said, he's polarizing. You go back and forth the
greer or disagree with what I just said. I believe
what I've thought about it a lot, and I firmly
believe that one of the true and you talked to
the one guy he didn't mention is the guy that.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I think he's most closely lined to in a way
that he played was Ty Cobb.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
That's you know, that's my comp for him for the
years that he played. Ever haven't seen Ty Cob play,
But that was also like a polarizing, legendary figure.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And that's who he is. That's who he is. It's
just too bad.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
I really do wish he had been able to achieve
the Hall of Family was alive.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, you think about it, Joe. I mean, he grew
up in Cincinnati, played for his hometown team. But think
about he was not big, he was not fast, he
was not strong, he was not athletically gifted, and yet
he virtually willed himself to more hits than any player
who ever played the major league game. He took more
(06:35):
bats than anybody who ever played, and to his point
of pride, almost as much as the hits, he played
in more winning baseball games than any major leaguer in history.
And that's what he was about. I think Pete Rose
was addicted to winning, and unfortunately that carried over to
his gambling habit. And I'll disagree with you slightly here
(06:55):
because yes, our norms have certainly changed in this culture.
What was once forbidden is now encouraged when it comes
to gambling. But one thing that has not changed is
that Rule twenty one. And you know that when you
join the club of Major League Baseball that there is
no second chance when it comes to Rule twenty one.
You can argue the rule is too stringent, but it's
there for a reason. I actually think it's even more
(07:17):
needed now because gambling is so prevalent. You can bet
all you want, but do not place a bet on
a game that you have an obligation to perform in.
And that's where he couldn't stop himself.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Yeah, I agree, no this, I'm not disagreeing with the rule,
not at all. I just think that he's paid his
debt based on the years, even though it took him
a while to come out and come clean. I guess
eventually he did do that. And there's just there's this
part of this. I cannot stand the fact that when
I like love watching the nightly news, when I watched
nightly news, we advertise illness and disease and pharmaceuticals, and
(07:52):
we also advertise gambling and betting. It was driving down
to golf tournament yesterday, cal Ripken's down in Maryland and
I'm driving down listening to MLB, and there's all of
these these these ads to advertise the different personalities have
to read and regarding betting, and you know, get out there,
make sure you get your bet in.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Before the you know, the end of the day, particularly game.
I don't like that stuff. I really don't.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
And I think it's really taking us down a bad
path young people, earning your money whatever, and then making
it so easy to lose your money.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I don't like it. I just don't like it. I don't.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I think it smells a little bit. So I'm not
disputing number real twenty one. That's not my point. My
point is in his case, I think he's done his
time in a sense. And furthermore, I think we were
going in the wrong direction with encouraging betting.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I don't understand that. I never will. You know, you
work hard to earn.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Your money, just frivously throw it away by becoming easily addicted.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
We're encouraging addiction there too. I don't like it.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
So that's that's the one part of what we're doing
right now that really bothers me a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, I'm with you on that, Joe, And I mentioned
I knew Pete fairly well and worked with him at
Fox when he was there for a while. I love
being around him. He's a great storyteller. I think the
man had a really good heart. He did have some
demons that he had to deal with, like all of us.
But I can tell you, Joe, one of the favorite
stories that I've written at Sports Illustrated was nine years
(09:15):
ago when I drove with Pete Rose from Las Vegas
to Los Angeles two hundred and sixty seven miles and
Pete was behind the wheel of his Bentley wo And
if you can bear with me, because I thought it
was one of the most fascinating interviews I've ever done.
You know, Pete totally unplugged captive audience for basically four
(09:38):
and a half five hours, nothing off the record, and
it was Pete Rose revealing himself. And obviously he's an
open book, so it was a fascinating interview. I just
wanted to read a couple of paragraphs here from the
beginning and the end of that piece that I think
would give people an idea of not just how crazy
(09:59):
that ride was, but who Pete Rose was. Love or loathe.
Pete Rose is a uniquely American institution, not unlike Mount
Rushmore with a grand canyon, but more like Coney Island, Branson, Missouri,
Cadillac Ranch south of the Border, Graceland, the world's largest
ball of twine, and yes, Vegas baby. They are melting
(10:21):
pots of kitsch entertainment and the narratives we affix to
them in the way a child draws in a coloring book.
Here's the outline. Make of it what you will. Rose
signed out of a high school with his hometown team,
and without much size, speed or strength. It became the
all time hit king. The effort in Rose defind him
even more than the prolific results, an endearing quality in
(10:43):
a country built on the notion of raising yourself up
by the bootstraps. The American dream and spikes, but hucksterism, roguishness, commercialism,
and deceit all were part of the Rose Playbook two.
And if we're being honest, that's America too. Actually, nobody
wears bootstraps anymore. Fame and it's a tenant. Commerce favors
(11:05):
the shrewd as well as the earnest leaving Las Vegas
on I fifteen West and a two hundred thousand dollars
car with a bank teller's son who never attended college
and who was engaged to a playboy model more than
half his age. I realize what's on this side of
the windshield is just as American as what's on the
other side. Great ribbons of concrete and asphalt lay before
(11:28):
us like arteries and veins, throbbing with the pulse of
everyday life, as we, like so many others, who dreamed
to make it in this land head west for something better.
That's how that journey started with Pete Rose Joe, And
you know, he kind of bared himself to me how
much it hurt when Barti Matti stood up there. He
(11:48):
thought he had an agreement. Pete did that bart had
made no findings on whether he bet on baseball or not.
And Pete thought he could reapply to baseball in a
year and be readmitted in a year. And there was
nothing in the formal agreement that found that Pete Rose
bet on baseball. But at the press conference, when a
reporter asked Giamatti, did Pete Rose bet on baseball? Giamatti
said yes, and that crushed him. He really didn't own
(12:13):
up to it, as I said, for a good fifteen
to seventeen years, and thought he could work his way
back into baseball, and it hurt him, There's no question
about it. And I learned that on the card Rode.
Pete Rose loved baseball as much as anybody I've come across.
So when he was banned from baseball, he was put
on his own elbow. He was a man without a country.
(12:34):
When I worked with at Fox Joe, when we did
pregame and postgame shows, we had to set up the
desk in areas of the stands or outside the ballpark
because Pete Rose literally was not allowed to enter a
Major League ballpark and especially on the field without permission
of the Commissioner's office. I'm sure that hurt him because
of how much he loved the game devastated him.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
I mean, that's really.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
If you really consider all of that, that first of all,
a great writing man, that's really I mean, I didn't
know you had done that.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
That's pretty interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
You had that ride with him, and I could be
so entertaining, like you said, and well, what a memory
for you personally too. But beyond all that, I did again,
I didn't realize the agreement with Giamatti and you just said,
there's absolutely capsulates everything. He just loved the game of baseball,
absolutely loved the game of baseball. At least to be
able to go out and do card shows, and I
know that it was part of his income too, but
(13:26):
to get there and just press the flesh with the
fans at that point had to be very helpful to
him because to not be able to just walk into
a ballpark at any time or become part of a
staff or whatever, because at that time easily could have
seen him becoming part of a staff if eventually he
was permitted to or at least be part of, you know,
coming to a ballpark, even just to sign autographs in
a ballpark. Could not do that. It's difficult. It's difficult
(13:48):
to understand all of that. I know he did something wrong,
and listen, I'm all about you know, you have to
earn the right to be punished too, in a sense,
so and he was, But to strip him of all
of that, his dignity as a human being, as a
former major legue, one of the greatest Major League Baseball
players ever, just by hitting singles and running hard to
first base and head first slide when he was actually airborne,
(14:11):
and playing every position on the field possible because that was,
like you suggested, the best chance for the team to win.
All this stuff matters too. At some point you have
to balance it all out and come to some kind
of conclusion here. So what point do you just lighten
it up a little bit? But at one point, like
I said, does he actually has he actually served time
in regards to the twist crime and eventually did the
(14:34):
punishment fit the crime to the point where he still
passes away and is not able to be admitted to
the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
I think you know, we all have to look in
the mirror sometimes none of us are perfect, and absolutely
he was not. And like you said, he's not afraid
to admit it either. He'll tell you exactly what happened.
He told you exactly what had happened, So I listened.
I'm always was a Pete Rose fan. I loved the way,
and again coming from where I come from and how
we played the game, and being a former coach and
a manager, you look for guys that's just purely want
(15:04):
to win the game, and we'll do whatever it takes
to win the game, and really do with the group
asks you to do. The manager of the front office,
whatever he did that, he did all that stuff, and
then again he was stripped of his ability to participate
on a daily basis into one thing that mattered most
to him. There's nothing else that mattered more than him.
I had to argue that Estavy didn't mean as much to.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Him as being a part of a baseball situation.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
So, yeah, it's sad. It's a really sad story. There's
going to be a lot written now. Probably the movie
is going to come out at some point in the
near future. But I like Pete Rose, and it's sorry
to that end it this way.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, it is sad. I mean, there's no question about it,
because again we know how much baseball meant to Pete Rose,
and I think he had a lot to offer the
game of baseball and he could not do that in
an official capacity for most of his adult life, at
least after the banning. Yeah, there already have been movies.
There will be more. There have been books, there will
be more. Pete Rose read a couple himself. Actually, he
(16:03):
had a funny line and he said, I think I've
written more books that I've read. That was Pete Rose.
I mean, he was just as many hits as he had.
He had more one liners than hits. It's just an
amazing guy. So just to put a bow on Pete,
let me read you how I wrapped up our trip.
After two hundred and sixty seven miles with Pete Rose
(16:23):
and a Bentley, going through the Mojave Desert and everything
else between Vegas and Los Angeles, Rose pulls the Bentley
into a rental car parking lot where I will pick
up a bit more modest set of wheels to take
me to a downtown hotel. Two hundred and sixty seven
miles passed quickly. I thank him for his generosity of
sharing his ride and his time. He pops the lid
(16:46):
of the trunk where I have placed my suitcase atop
a scattering of magazines and assorted papers, as if a
file had spilled open. Then I pushed the button on
the trunk to close the lid. As it shuts, I'd
noticed for the first time his Nevada license plate Hit King.
I have to laugh. It's the ultimate rose accessory, better
(17:06):
than cream colored Ostrich boots. What a country. The scrappy
kid from Cincinnati who was thrown out of baseball is
engaged with thirty four year old playboy model and drives
a Bentley financed with the worth of his signature and
festoon with a hit King license plate. Reconfigure his life.
Does the road teach us nothing? This is America, land
of gambling and entrepreneurs, hucksters, singing cowboys, artists and golden dreamers.
(17:32):
And that's just on the drive from Vegas to La
Rose fits. He is roadside America. He is real life.
He is a real life David Hockney joiner. One picture
made from hundreds, a quirky collage that invites different perspectives. Hustler, huckster, dreamer, rogue, commoner, entertainer, legend,
(17:54):
ambassador are but a few of the appellations from which
to choose, but one that can't be denied. His seventy
four year old grandfather looking for a second chance. I
give the butt of the Bentley a gentle tap, the
way ballplayers do to one another, for both the job
well done or the wish of better luck next time.
I watch as the Bentley rolls off the hit King reminder,
(18:17):
getting smaller and smaller until I can no longer read it,
but I know it's still there.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I can't comment. That's outstanding. That really wraps it all up,
very nicely. Well done, Tommy, I didn't know you did that.
It's outstanding.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah. Like I tell people, Pete Rose, the legacy is complicated,
right because you can see it from so many different angles.
But Pete Rose was not complicated. He hid nothing. There
was no hitting agendas. He was a guy who didn't
pull punches. He wasn't honest with the truth as far
as admitting his gambling problem for many years. But he
(18:54):
lived life the way he played baseball. And you mentioned it, Joe,
that that All Star game with running at the Ray Fosse,
a game that literally didn't matter. Pete Rose knew no
other way to go headlong through baseball in life, just
one question.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
And you did say he played in more winning games
than anybody ever. Yeah, he did see that.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
That's it right there there, enough said you know, you
never let get in the way of anybody's great andness.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
I don't even know if he'd had a chance to
play in today's game by just being a single sitter.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
And like you said, didn't run that well whatever, wasn't
the greatest defender, didn't have the strongest arm, but he
just won. And you really have to consider that. So
that's another part of it that's very interesting. Who he
is and who he was or he was to the
game and from now and forever in today's world, would
even be permitted to get that many hits?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Would he even be permitted to play as long as
he did?
Speaker 3 (19:47):
And at the end of all that, you just have
to really evaluate him. One one thing, played in more
winning baseball games than anybody ever. Wow, that that just
screams that you right there.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, it does. So. Our condolences to the family of
Pete Rose. And it's important to remember as people measure
and weigh his life. And it's easy to point out
the mistakes. They're so darn public and well chronicled but
we must remember the absolute joy he gave to so
many people with the way he played baseball. Just the
(20:19):
way he played the game was attractive to so many
people that even in his later years, people responded to
Pete Rose as if you will one of them, you know,
a commenter, they could relate to a real blue collar
baseball player, defined not so much by his skills, but
by his will. And that's how I think we should
(20:40):
remember Pete Rose.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
He made the walk entertaining right he wanted to see.
He's the only guy that could possibly make the walk entertaining.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
How he ran down the first space enoughset.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Eighty three years old, Pete Rose. When we get back
on the Book of Joe podcast, we will break down
the exciting wild Card series coming up. I'll see if
Joe sees any upsets in the offing. We'll get to
that right after this. All right, Joe, Here we are
(21:16):
wild Card series coming up, best two out of three,
all in the home park of the higher seed. First
of all, I think about the journey of the Mets
have been on here. Just incredible. They win on the
last day of the season, well, on the last Sunday
of the season in Milwaukee, take a plane to Atlanta.
Win it. Just an amazing instant classic of a game
eight to seven over the Raves. To get it the postseason,
(21:37):
get on a plane and fly back to Milwaukee where
they will be facing the Brewers again. Joe, it may
take you back to your twenty thirteenth season when you
got to play a one hundred and sixty third game
and we're flying all over the place. What was that
experience like? Because I'm a firm believer that as much
as the media likes to make a big deal out
of the travel with the schedule, to me, the greater
(21:59):
the challenge, the higher the reward, that getting through something
like that can really palat team.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Absolutely, there's so much energy involved that that wasn't even
a concern the travel, where you're going, with time you
got in at night, what time you go to the ballpark.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Nothing. I mean that was at twenty thirteen. I didn't
realize the year.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
But first of all, we had to win on Sunday
in Toronto and we're playing the Blue Jays in Toronto.
We had to win that game in order to possibly
get into that playoff game with Texas, and in that game,
I got kicked out of that game we were playing,
and it's seventh inning, great thinning, whatever, and Adam Lynd's
coming up, and I bringing in Joel Peralta, who's an
absolute flyball pitcher, strikeout flyball pitcher. Linda a good left
(22:39):
tended hitter, but I like Parlta on lefties. So Joel
comes in and I we're having a hard time with
the home played umpire. So I get in there and
I get to the mountain. I said, okay, boys, I'm
going to watch the rest of this game from inside.
And Joel says, not a sick but don't do that, Socio,
don't do that. I said, no, it's about time I
got to do something about this. I can't stand it anymore.
So I stand there and I yet ejected by the
(23:01):
umpire balls and strikes at the mount.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I waited from the come out to the mount.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
I go inside, had a nice glass of wine, and
I watched the rest of the game.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
But the irony of the whole thing is that.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Peralta flyball pitcher, strikeout pitcher, I get in. No sooner
do I get in or start watching the game.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Chopper over the mound.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
I don't remember who the short stuff was at that
time comes over steps on second base, so it was
the first double player out of the inning. And eventually
we do win the game, which now means we go
to Texas. Go to Texas. I'm playing the one game playoff.
That's where I think David Price pitched a great game
that night where he had really had a difficult time
before that. So we go to Texas win that game.
And I also believe that's where Kevin Kiermaier debuted late
(23:38):
in the game as a late any defensive replacement. He
had not even played in a major league game, but
he played his first game in an actual playoff game there.
So then we get on a plane, we fly to
Cleveland and we played Cleveland and Cleveland and Alex Cobb
was magnificent and Delman Young hits a big home run
on the fourth inning and he was a right handed hitter.
They had a right handed pitcher, and again I think
(23:59):
it was Salazar A Kurosco. Always get those two guys confused,
but it's a reverse splip guy.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
So I had an.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Argument with the you know, the lineup with the guys
before that, and I said, no, I want d Y
in there, because this guy's reverse split and d why
is going to go deep?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
And he did. So we beat Cleveland and I think
we had a day off.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
And then we had to play Boston for the in
the Wildcard Series.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So this the point. I guess that was hard.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Yes, you have the energy all this stuff, but what
happens is by the time you get to Boston, you
know your your pitching staff's kind of worn down. And yes,
sometimes the guys can get a little bit warmed because
that is a definitely a difficult march to go through
to get to that to the playoffs versus the Red Sox.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So I think we.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Got a little bit warned by all that. But as
we're going through the moment Toronto, Texas and Cleveland boom
boom boom, and having to win all of them, you
don't feel it.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
You absolutely do not feel it.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Last year Texas proved that with their their trek to
the World Series and how they did that. They're on
the road forever, so I think that's overplayed. I don't
think there's necessarily an our game home field advantage in baseball.
I think it doesn't matter to the visiting team. Were
so good at blocking out noise. I remember when we
beat the White Sox in Chicago in two thousand and eight.
(25:10):
They had to blackout going on. Came out for the
first game there and there's like lint flying over the
ballpark from the guys, everybody waving a black towel, And
you would think that'd be intimidating, but it was kind
of feeling because you just you're feeling the energy of
the crowd too. So I don't believe there's a real
home court advantage in baseball with on the road and
especially in the playoffs. But yeah, the trek is difficult,
(25:32):
but your energy is found. It just appears, but you
can't get worn down. And more than anything, you're pitching
could get worn down if you have to go through
something like that to get to the to the DS
where he had to play Boston, who was very well rested.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, I'm glad you said that, Joe, about home field advantage.
It gets so overrated in this game. It's nothing like
the NBA or the NFL. It does matter if you're
playing a close game because when you get to the
bottom of the eighth inning right as the home team,
you no longer have to defend the lead. You know,
you take the lead. Actually the ninth inning, that's where
(26:08):
the advantage is. You get the bat last in a
close game. But that's about it. And the numbers show that,
you know, the number is what wins for the home team.
So all that being said, do you give the Mets
a chance going up to Milwaukee best out of three?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
There's they're riding a wave right now. I just like Milwaukee.
Milwaukee are the latter day Rays, not Braves. They're the
latter day Rays. Maddie Arnolds running them and Murph and
I go way back also, and they can just see
how he runs the game. The guy's been, He's had
a few games under his belt. He knows what he's doing.
(26:47):
And Murph could be rather inspirationally, it could be funny,
could be caustic, he could be a lot of different things.
But Murs won. He's won everywhere he's been. So with
the Mets had to go through yesterday and Diaz, how
many pitches did he throw in two days just to
get to the to the point where they did win
that game. He's going to something like we went through
with the Cubs when I had to pitch WAYE. Davis
(27:09):
so much in the in the clinching game in Washington.
By the time he got to La, we lose a
big game because he wasn't ready to come back, and
I had to bring Lackey in the game late, and
Turner goes deep and all of a sudden everything changes.
So it's the big impact to me is the pitching staff.
And that's what I'm saying. That just kind of intimated
that with the Toronto, Texas Cleveland run. So I think
Milwaukee combo of their pitching staff arrest a more arrested
(27:32):
pitching staff, the Mets being kind of like stretched to
the point where it's very difficult.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
And like I said, I like.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
The way Milwaukee plays the game, and they pitch it
and they catch it. They're really good at both things.
They'll hit enough somehow. That's again with the Rays used
to get like to the point in the middle of
the season, you're twenty games over five hundred, you say,
you ask each other, how do we do this? You
do this every day by being consistent in those real
important factors. So the Mets are going to show up,
(28:00):
no question. I'm a big Mets fan. I love the
way they play. Love Mendoza has done a great job there, too,
But I just think Milwaukee has an edge based on
how they play, who they are, how they show up
every day, and I don't think any of that's going
to change. And actually I think they're going to get
all the way to the finals and play the Dodgers.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I'm skipping ahead, but I think they're going to last
a bit.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah, I'm with you on Milwaukee. I'll take the rested team,
rested pitching staff over the hot team with the New
York Mets. You know, I also think Joe, and I'm
with you. By the way, the Milwaukee Brewers may be
my favorite team to watch play baseball. They really are,
and they do look like a college team under Murph.
The way they hustle, guys will pitch in any spots
nobody complains. And the big thing for me is the
(28:41):
way they run the bases. I mean, they will turn
this series, as they have every game against the Mets
this year, into a track meet. The Mets just cannot
defend their speed on the bases. They take advantage of
the outfield of the Mets by running, taking extra bases
all the time. There's just so much team speed on
the Brewers. It's a bad matchup. For the Mets, who
really don't hold the runners well and walk too many guys.
(29:02):
And I always say this, the postseason games are competed
ninety feet at a time, even more so in the
regular season. The Brewers will start racking up some extra bases,
getting guys to third base with less than two outs,
getting into scoring position with two outs. So I just
think their team speed will be a difference in that series.
So we're on the same page there. Let's talk about
the other series now in the National League. The Braves
(29:24):
to get on a plane after they clinched in the
second game of a doubleheader Monday to go play the
San Diego Padres in San Diego. It looks like Chris
Sale with his back spasms, will not pitch in that series.
Tell me what you've got on Braves at the Padres.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Yeah, I mean again, you got the rested group who's
been really, really hot, meaning the Padres. I think Shilty
has done a great job there also, And again I
think his fingerprints are all over that his experience as
a managers really showing up there too. The way they
play there is as common most as professional as they've
been with the Ajas group out there and all the
(30:02):
different folks they brought in over the last couple years
of different managers, etc. Right now, they just seem to
they're fulfilling this kind of kind of a destiny in
a sense, regarding the people they brought in, the kind
of talent that they have, the superstars that they have.
They're playing well together, but they're playing a much better
game of baseball. It's a much more it appears a
more tighter group with winning being way more important as
(30:26):
opposed to branding as what I've seen in the past.
So I think they're coming together. And again I think
Atlanta is going to suffer the same way the Mets have.
I mean, that was not an easy day yesterday, losing
the first game, but I really and I'm not accusing
the Mets of mailing it in on the second one,
but the Mets, they just just wanted to get out
of town.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
They had to get out of town. They wanted to leave.
We're in it. This game really is.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Superfluous, truly was, and so the Braves still had to
really fight in that second game, and of course utilize
the Pitchanno saled in pitch. But it just tells me
that something's going on. They're a little bit more than
they're admitting to actually pitch them in that game, because
you can't take anything for granted after that. So a
lot of combination of factors working there. But I like
(31:11):
the Padres and what they're doing. They've been hot.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I don't think that's gonna lighten up. They do.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
They're they're very talented. They're very talented group, and I
think Atlanta just not the same Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Group this year. They've they've probably been hurt more than
anybody in a really severe way. So I like the Padres.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
I like the the newfound kind of unity and method
of play that the Padres have adopted. And I think
them they're getting close to being what a Milwaukee's like,
And so I liked I like them a lot in
this situation too.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, and I love what you said about the Padres, Joe,
the way that you put it that you know, winning
has become more important over branding, and there has been
a lot of churn on that roster in San Diego,
but it seemed like this year under Mike's Schultz, they
finally coalesced and understood what they are who they are
as a team without any any kind of the kind
(32:03):
of quiet drama that had been going out in their clubhouse,
especially last season when they did not live up to expectations.
So I think they've found their identity, They've found their way.
It's a very talented team, first of all, with some
really high end talent. But when I look at baseball
teams in the postseason, and it is different than the
regular season. To me, the Padres check every box more
(32:24):
than any team in the tournament right now. I'm talking
about starting pitchers who can go out and win a
game for you. We know bullpen's rule in the postseason,
but sometimes you need a starting pitcher to go out
there and shut a team down and win the game himself,
not just give your team a chance to win. I'm
talking about it starter goes out there and just deals
and takes that ball to the seventh or eighth inning.
(32:46):
They've got that in Dylan Cees, Joe Musgrove, and Michael King.
I don't even think you Darbush is going to make
the wild card roster to start out. They're so deep.
The other thing bullpen. Absolutely. I think I like their
bullpen as much as anybody's. Mike Schultz is not afraid
to close the game with different guys. He'll punch Suez
in there if there's a right handed lane somewhere and
(33:07):
have the Tanner Scott behind him. It's a really, really
deep bullpen before the deadline, some of their pieces they
use in a winner tie situation now moved up to
pitching the fifth or sixth. That's how deep they are.
And the last thing I want to check all the
boxes is an offense that puts the ball in play.
We've seen it time and time again that teams that
(33:27):
have a lot of strikeouts in the lineup, like Minnesota
just do not play well in the postseason because you're
not seeing the back of rotations of the middle of bullpens.
You're seeing premier guys who attacked the zone with swing
and miss stuff put the ball in play. Good things happen.
That's San Diego. So to me, I like the padres
a lot in that series.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, all great points. I totally agree with all of that.
The starting pitching.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
I hope that there's a renaissance with that resurgence of
that because it does matter, and if you want good bullpens,
this is like the first three games, but then you
have to play another series. In another series and here
we go. So there's there's that factor to be considered. Also,
of course, you've got to get to this next level
and you're not going to just leave a starter out
(34:12):
there just because if it needs to go to the bullpen,
you go to the bullpen, no question. But I still
I love the group that permits starting pitching to be
the engine that drives the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I think that's a big part of continued success and
that you just described there as like you always hear
the different phrases during the course of the season, the
teams that you know built for the playoffs or they're
only they're more built for the regular season than the playoffs.
So different teams are getting accused of different things. But
your conclusions are good. I think I think that's that's
all accurate. And again, the unification of the group and
(34:46):
how they're playing right now, it's gonna make all the
difference in the world. I think it's it's gonna be
fascinating to watch this and I like you're just talking.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
We just both agreed.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
I guess they've been walking in San Diego are going
to advance and that's that could be quite a series
if that.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Impact does happen. I don't even know how that. No,
that would not work that way necessarily, but eventually could.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah. Well, we'll see if we agree on the American
League side of the draw, Joe, because we got two
teams with eighty six wins that look dangerous right now
on the American League side. We'll dive into that after
this quick break on the Book of Joe. Welcome back
(35:30):
to the Book of Joe. Obviously, here Tom Berducci and
Joe Madden talking about the wild card series coming up
this week. The American League side has two eighty six
win teams from the Al Central. Raise your hand of it.
You had that before the season began, and both actually
have a chance to get through to the next round.
First of all, let's start with the Kansas City Royals,
(35:52):
who begin at the Baltimore Orioles. The Royals, Joe, lost
one hundred and six games last year. You've been in
this situation before, turning around a couple of teams from
one hundred loss seasons to the postseason and took you know,
the Rays and Eight all the way to the World Series.
Do the Royals have a chance against the Orioles.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yes, I'll tell you what's well. I think both teams
are finally able to breathe again. I mean, especially Kansas
City the way this all wrapped up, where they were
really struggling at the end. Detroit kept beating up on
him a little bit and they lost some kind of
a lead there and eventually started coming back. But there
were it was new found territory for a young group
(36:35):
right there, including their manager, Maddiekutaro. And I know Matt
really well. I think he's outstanding. This guy here really
has a wonderful demeanor to be a manager for many
years in the big leagues. He's got the brain to
be that, but he's also got the demeanor to be that.
He's he's got a slow heartbeat, and I really like
him a lot. So I think they're all able to
breathe again. I think they were, like, you know, probably
(36:56):
pressing a little bit. I've been there with the Angels
in two thousand and two specifically, and more than any
group that I've ever been on, that was the group
that really taught us how to win once we got
to the playoffs, once we clinched against Texas, and Texas
began to breathe again, and when you begin to breathe again,
you start playing again. Sometimes just getting to the dance,
you're able to relax. I mean, of course there's tension
(37:18):
in whatever, pressure, whatever, But when you work so hard
to get there, and you struggle to get there and
then you do, sometimes that that big exhale occurs and
all of a sudden, guys start playing like guys are
capable again that you recognize.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
And same it could be said for Baltimore.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
I mean the fact that they to come so much
lately and the Yankees spread it out and eventually win
that division.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
So Baltimore wasn't Baltimore again. They're pitching.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
There's something you know need to be desired there overall,
but nevertheless, both teams are breathing again. I guess that's
what I'm trying to get it. So this could be
a lot tighter than you think. It's going to be
more interesting. I'm a big Baltimore guy. I love Hider.
Hider is another one of my guys, a manager with
Baltimore and Brendon Hyde, and he's also got that same
kind of John Wayne's stuff going on that Maddy Kataro's
(38:05):
got so that's kind of interesting, and from that perspective,
it's kind of difficult. Although Hyder and I did work
together more than Matt and I did, so they're breathing again,
and that's the biggest thing. I mean, they're both talented,
they both got I mean, with Bobby Wit to me,
is like a more complete version of Roby Yell. And
Robyn Yett was pretty darn good, but Bobby wit Junior
is like a little bigger, little bit stronger I think
(38:25):
than rob and Robbin was great, and I'm not denigrating anything,
but I look at him and I think it's like
the twenty twenty four version of Robin yeu'. That's what
Bobby Witch Junior is. And then of course you got
Henderson on the other side. So there's a lot of
this going on. Both sides are breathing.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
I think it's gonna be a spectacular series.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah, I'm curious with Bobby Witt Junior. I love him
as well. I mean, he's the fastest guy into baseball
and he also hits thirty plus home runs and plays
a premier shortstop. I mean, it's just an incredible package
of skills he has. But in this situation, if I'm Baltimore,
there's no way I'm letting Bobby wit Junior beat me.
It's really not a deep lineup, but he's the one
you really really circle, and it'll be curious to see
(39:04):
how he, in his first postseason situation, handles that and
doesn't try it to force things offensively because I don't
think he's going to get much to hit and he's
a high energy guy, so I'll keep an eye on that.
I think Kansas City has a narrow path to win
this series, and that is through their starting pitching. Carl
Reagan's is really really good lefty with premier velocity and
(39:25):
outstanding change up and Seth Lugo has had a great
year for Kansas City and Baltimore did not really hit
well down the stretch. That to me, is the one
way Kansas City can win this series that their pitchers
go out there and just deal. Now, I'll give an
edge to the Orioles because I think with all of
their power is such a decided advantage. Even if they
(39:48):
don't hit really well, they can change the game with
one swing up and down the lineup. The Royals can't
do that, and that's what I think will be the
difference in this series. I think the Orioles can pop
a couple of balls out and win what I think
it will be a really really close series, But I
will lean towards Baltimore in that one, which brings us
to Detroit and Houston. Aj Hinch going back to Houston
(40:11):
to take his Tigers team, who are the They're the
it team down the stretch. With the way that they
played going up against the Houston Astros. We all know
the American League Championship goes through Houston. It has for
what seven eight straight years? Nothing's changed. The Astros are
a TV you just can't kill. They know how to
win in the big spots. They have really good starting pitching.
(40:32):
Do you give Detroit a chance against Houston, Joe, I.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Have Houston circled No. I like Houston here. I was
checking it out today. I remember last year the anomaly situation.
They played much better on the road than they did
at home. They think they've kind of rectified that a bit.
But Houston, the way they started and the way they concluded, Nick,
you said they're pedigree and how they respond to these
kind of moments. This is the kind of year that
(40:56):
Detroit I think you know, found their footing a bit obviously,
and they did. They were spectacular down the stretch. But
I mean they're their offense was playing better at the end.
But I still believe they can be explained a bit.
There's a lot of swing and missing that group. So
I just think Houston's pedigree does show up.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I think it shows up right here. The fact that
they had to struggle so hard to get there.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
I think they learned that, they taught themselves a few lessons.
It's really amazing but they've done and how they've done
it over the last like I said, seven years. I'm
such a big fan of that because I know how
difficult it is to do that. So I'm still going
to give the edge to Houston. I love with detroit
Son Scottie Harris, a friend of mine who's running that team.
I'm happy for that. I know aj I Apoachee the
boys coaching first base there too. But I still think
(41:39):
Houston's going to show up. It's going to be a
good series. But I do believe Houston's experience is going
to matter here, and especially the fact that it's there
and that they're playing better in their home ballpark.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Yeah, I'm with you. Houston started twelve and twenty four,
and there's just something about this team, and I think
it starts with jose L Tuove in that they're never satisfied,
you know, they're always hungry to win the next series.
I don't think there's anything different here. I like Detroit
a lot. I think they're dangerous because they're so young.
They're going to start, by the way, Joe, the youngest
(42:12):
team on the field in the postseason game since your
twenty sixteen Chicago Cubs. They might have as many as
seven players in the starting lineup twenty five years and younger,
which is crazy. But here's the difference. AG's gonna have
to use a little bit of different lineup because of
the left handers on Houston's side, with Kokuchi and starting
(42:34):
with Franburg Valdez. I would like Detroit a lot more
if they were seeing more right handed pitching. They are
much better lineup against righty's than lefties, and those two
lefties are throwing the ball really well for Houston, so
I think the matchup does not work in favor of Detroit.
They would have been better off getting Baltimore in the
first round, but it fell into the sixth spot to
(42:54):
get Houston. So I think we're agreement there on the Astros.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
On just one question on Valdez, I mean this guy,
he's really good, but I mean I actually like lefties
on him as much, if not more than I do
righty sometimes, did you do you happen to notice or
his splits any different right now?
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah? They can be. He's a difficult guy. He's basically
he's a premier ground ball machine, which is what I
love about him again the postseason, I think a lot
of it. Even more so is defending the home run.
He does not give up home runs. His command can
get a little squarely at times, but he's been really
good lately. I'm with you on the on the lefties
that it wouldn't necessarily scare me and run off some
(43:34):
of my you know, Kerry Carpenter's Parker Meadows and those
guys on the left side from Detroit. We'll see what
aj does with the lineup. I just think left or right,
he's just a beast to deal with.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Well, He's got the spin on his pitches, the change
up so good, and I think it mitigates a little
bit against the left on left and that's I guess
what we're talking about, And I agree I would. If
I was Detroit, I would not run away from my
lefties necessarily, right, I'd have to really look at the
what I this is a situation. I would look at
a video my guy swings, my writing swings versus what Valdez's.
(44:08):
The shape of his pitches look like, the fastball's curveball
and the change up. And then there's some guys I mean,
I wouldn't. There's some writings I would just would not
like based on how there's swing planes, work up match
up against the shape of the pitches, and I would
look at that stuff before different series, and especially when
the This is where numbers are really important, when when
(44:28):
the numbers indicate reverse And I've done that successfully a
lot with reverse split guys, and a lot of them
being lefties. So don't run away from it. If that's
your group. I think it'd be kind of interesting if
they stayed with it.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Curious.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah, and you're dead on, by the way, from Rivaldez
is a reverse split guy. Left handers hit two fifty two,
right handers to fourteen, and left handers do also have
a little bit more slug there. So we'll see it.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Yeah, play them, just play the lefties.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
Well, it's a great timey or Joe. I can't wait
for these series urgency and we'll see who gets through
this first round. But there'll be a surprise or too.
We know that, and we saw it last year where
higher seeds are getting knocked out early. Can't wait for it.
In the meantime, as I always do, Joe, I'm going
to ask you to close this episode of the Book
(45:18):
of Joe. Who are you going to today?
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Well, you know, driving back from the golf tournament, I
was listening to some of the Braves and the Mets,
and I've you know, I've been on the Mets all year.
I kind of like a lot of them, what they've
done and how they've done it, and.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
I like the way. I like the the overall attitude
of the group.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
I like, I like your manager, and just the way
they play in a sense. And they've had some crappy moments,
you know, they have some difficult moments.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
They've and they've.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
Stayed with it. So the road to perseverance lies by doubt.
And I think anytime that we have we met with
difficult situations or uncomfortable situations, the.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Big thing is doubt. Doubt slash fear are always popping
in there for whatever reason. We don't know. It's things.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
We just were just subject to doubt and fear. We
just it's a part of the DNA. That's the fighter
a fighter fly syndrome kind of thing. But we always
were all subject to that. But to do what the
Mets have done, but eventually what Detroit has done in
this particular season, there's a lot of perseverance involved, and
you have to get beyond doubt and fear in order
(46:25):
to really persevere. And once you've once you learned how
to do that, it's not like it's the weird thing
about it's not one hundred percent lasting. It's like it's
always going to be. They always have to earn perseverance
in a sense. You got to you gotta show up
every day, you gotta believe, you got to grind through
whatever they thought is. So I think the Mets really
show this to me that the perseverance component with them.
(46:46):
So the road to perseverance lies by doubt. And after
everything I just said, if there's one group that I
think it's still persevere and be the group that does
something crazy good, would be the Mets.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
I love that, and that's a great theme for this
Wildcard round. Because the Mets were started out five, they
were eleven games under five hundred. The Astros were twelve
games under five hundred. The Tigers were under five hundred
in the middle to late August. The Royals had a
seven game losing streak in September. They lost one hundred
and six last year. The Braves, with all their injuries
to a Counya and Riley and everybody else, are still
(47:21):
breathing here in the postseason. The Brewers lost their manager,
their closer, they're starting pitching ace and here they are
back in the postseason. It's amazing what the length of
the season can do as far as challenges. But as
I said earlier, Joe, the greater the difficulty, the greater
the challenge, the higher the reward. We will see who
gets rewarded in this first round to move on to
(47:43):
the LDS and when we get there, we'll be back
to break it down. Hopefully you're back with me, Joe,
to talk about the next round when we get there,
and can the Dodgers and the Yankees get through the
next round? That's what it'll be Our next discussion, It's
gonna be fun. Man enjoyed it. Joe, Thanks your two
brother Thanks. The Book of Joe podcast is a production
(48:10):
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