The Book of Joe: Offseason Shopping and HOF Candidates

In this episode of 'The Book of Joe' Podcast, Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci look at offseason adjustments and how teams will be rebuilding their rosters.  Joe explains why pitchers have become a unique challenge to sign and manage.  Tom lays out the free agency landscape to see who should draw the most interest. It's time to vote on who will be the next class of Hall of Famers, so who are the favorites?  Plus, technology and training has never been better...but what's the one thing missing from today's players?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Daron, welcome back. This is the latest edition of
the Book of Joe Podcast with Me, Tom Berducci, and
Joe Madden. Joe, We've got a lot to get to today.

(00:25):
I want to talk about someone who was one of
the best at the sport that he delves in, who
just retired. We'll talk about that and what that has
to do with baseball, But first of all, tell me
how your Thanksgiving was wonderful.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
I had it down here in Florida. We're down here
right now, and I went to Michael Stewart's sister's house
over in Passlegrill.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Great food.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
They did a wonderful job with it, right on the beach,
great setting. But overall we had a wonderful day.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, same with us. Really nice day. It was a
rainy morning for us in New Jersey, but everything went
really well. The turkey came out great. My wife always
does a great job, but this turkey kept giving meat.
I mean it was we still have leftovers, that's how
big it was.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Like I said, I'm not good at that, but these people, Mike's,
Michael's family did a wonderful job.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
Turkey was hot. Stuffing was great.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Ancillary things even a big piece of brisket, steak whatever,
it was outstandingly done. And a really really well done
glass of wine too.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Hey, listen, we know the Winter Meetings are coming up
next week in Dallas. I will be there. This shopping season,
as it is for free agents, is starting to heat up.
To me, there's been two trends so far. The Angels
have stepped up and got a lot of shopping done
early and adding some depth and some veteran experience to
their team. And the market for starting pictures. That's what

(01:46):
I want to talk about, Joe. The market for starting pitchers.
Guys have jumped out early, and it seems like especially
the guys who do not have qualifying offers attached to them,
you know, with you say, Kakuchie, Blake Snell and recently
Frankie Montoss and Matthew Boyd all getting contracts multi R
tracks as free agents. Joe, a guy like Montas I

(02:07):
look at his numbers, I see nothing special, Okay. He
had one year for Oakland in twenty twenty one where
he pitched well through one hundred and eighty seven innings
with a three to three er Since then in three years,
he's thirteen and twenty three with a four point four
to three ERA, so that's an ERA adjusted ERA plus
of ninety two. So he's been a below average pitcher

(02:29):
averaging one hundred innings a year for three years. He
gets a two year, thirty four million dollar deal for
the New York Mets. I think Joe, to me, it
speaks to how sparse the market is for starting pitchers.
That we know, they pitch less than ever before, they
pitch with more rest than ever before, they break down
more than ever before, and it seems like if you

(02:49):
are a guy running a baseball team, you just got
to load up on inventory. You know, not everybody's going
to be at the front of your rotation.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
We know that.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
So having a guy at the age of well, it'll
be thirty two at March in Montas, I don't know
if he's a sure thing, Joe, But the way I
think David Stearns the Mets look at this is they
need starting pitching and he's out there and available.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah, then they look into their own little bag of
tricks what they feel like they're capable of doing, like Manea,
what he had done by coming over to the Mets.
He is also a former Oakland AA, but he was
there and Montoss was there in Oakland.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
I'll tell you what I mean.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
These guys were really good out there because I saw
them a lot, and Montasas that splitter was ridiculously good.
He was really tough. The last time I saw a
pitch on a regular basis those one hundred and eighty
innings that he had at that time. So I think
part of its history, it's one of the old scouting
adages that they've done it before, they could show it
to you again. And more than anything, it's a I

(03:44):
think it is a variety of different thoughts. And you
said it's the dearth of starting pitching. Where we're going
to find it. And then you look for people that
have been somewhat successful or successful, and I think they've
gotten away from some things. You look at your own
analytics and thinks, ah, we can help this guy. They
probably have something in mind. I would imagine they're going
to go out and sign up for that amount of money.

(04:05):
They probably spoke to him about it, talked to him,
made a wonderful presentation regarding the adjustments.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
They like to see him make.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
And then they're gonna point to like Manea and other
success stories that they've had in the recent past, because
the Mets have had a pretty good run even recently. Patterson,
there's other guys Peterson Peterson.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Or Patterson Peterson, yeah, David Peters, Yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
I mean they've had a nice run there with taking
guys and bringing their careers kind of like back in order.
So I think that's part of it. Stearn says that reputation,
so it's you know, that's just how the game works today,
is that it's kind of the flavor of the month.
There's other teams right now looking to take relief pictures
and making them into starters. As an example, I mean

(04:47):
Seth Lugo, who I've always loved what his success did
last year in Kansas City, last couple of years in
San Diego.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
I think that speaks to it.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
I'm hearing that reading that the Clay Holmes is another
potential option to do something like that.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
So I think you're going to see.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Digging into relief picture's former starter has become really levers,
and then they look at them more specifically based on
their own little cocktails and decide who can we help
and who fits in and for whatever reasons, and I
think they're going to see more of that.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Let's talk about trying to keep these guys healthy, because
that's the biggest thing that teams need. Such an inventory
of pitchers last year, on average, I'm just talking about
starting pitches now, not relief pitching. Teams went through one
hundred and sixty seven starters went on the il last year.
That's an average of between five and six starting pitchers

(05:33):
per team per season. So essentially, when you build out
your team, you need to build two rotations. Right, you
need a depth to behind everybody one through five. Right.
The amount of money paid to starting pitchers last year
who could not pitch because of injury was four hundred
and ninety eight point six million dollars, almost five hundred

(05:56):
million dollars. Now that that cost, if you will, in
the last two years alone, has got up sixty percent.
In twenty twenty two, it was three hundred and twelve million,
and now it's almost five hundred million. In the span
of just two years. It's gone up more than twenty
five percent each of the last two years. This is

(06:16):
what teams are up against. Go look at the free
agent pitchers starting pitchers signed last year. The ten highest
paid starting pitchers signed last year as free agents, only
four of them had a qualified season, which means they
threw one inning for each game or one hundred and
sixty two innings. Breakdowns all over the joint. I almost
feel like Joe. Teams have to build this in now

(06:38):
that you're not getting one hundred and sixty two innings
out of a pitcher, You're not getting years of regular
use out of these guys. Give me your take on
what's happening here with starting pitchers because they are pitching
with more rest than ever before and pitching shorter when
they get out there.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Doesn't that bag to the question why you're just you
just said that pretty much. Yeah, that's it for me.
It's simplistic. We're over protecting. I think it starts into
minor leagues. It's how you train these guys to begin with.
They're even their mindset. What do you what do you
want from these people? What do you want from a
starting pitcher? And permitting them to learn and grow that
they're turning through the batting order, stuff, number of pitches thrown,

(07:14):
innings in the minor leagues and just being in the
minor leagues in general for a longer period of time.
Everybody is so rushed to the major league level. And
then once you get there, obviously right now you should
have the best training methods ever, the best rehab methods ever,
the best everything ever.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
It's all there.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
But nevertheless we're still breaking down. So there's got to
it's got to be something at the at the bottom
of the food Chainer is something very simple that we're
really not applying. And and really it just comes down
to throwing. I'm this is not about me in any way,
shape or form, but as kids we threw and through
and through and through and nobody you know, when you're
on a store and you stop throwing, there's an ability

(07:49):
to build up the maintenance within your own arm just
by the act of throwing. Throwing a long toss so important.
It was with Mark Langston Langley one of the best
arms I've ever been around. And I think I've mentioned
this too before, but before on his workout day he
would play side piece, but he would throw long toss
before he got to the mound, and it would start
on the left field line at Anaheim Stadium, and he

(08:12):
threw the ball so far that I had to hit
a fungo to get it back to him and the
last throw would go over the right center field fence.
Was that was that strong and that far and likely,
you know, pretty much pitch without issues his whole career.
I just think we've gone the wrong way with all that.
And on top of that, it's just the the blind
acceptance for wanting to just throw the ball as hard

(08:34):
as we can from the very first pitch. Pitch ability,
throwing pitches, making pitches, getting outs early in counts, all
those things are not important anymore. It's just about the absolutes,
and that would be the strikeout to walk in the
homer and that's still going to be that way, and
we want to spin the ball high and throw it
as hard as you can. There's there are there's different
there's different things there. I believe that where it's not

(08:57):
going to change necessarily. I don't think it's going to change.
If you keep losing money like that, maybe it will,
but that's it. I think if we were just to
change the training methods in the minor leagues back to
a more aggressive, longer period of time training sessions there,
meaning more time spent in the minor leagues before you
get there, and when you get there, you should be

(09:19):
ready and learn how to pitch the third time through
by utilizing something different than you did the first two times.
I mean, this is maybe an oversimplification, but I kind
of like oversimplifying things. I'd love to see somebody take
a chance at this and just pump the brakes on
this accelerated progress to the big schemes. Perfect example. I mean,

(09:41):
this guy obviously belonged there, but he's won a few.
I mean, other guys get there relatively quickly, and then
all of a sudden they become shooting stars as opposed
to rising stars, because they're flame burned so quickly and
bright and hot, and eventually he's put out.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Well, you know the quality start designation. Right, A pitcher
goes at least six innings, gives up no more than
three earned run. Now, it used to be people would
kind of pooh pooh that stat because they'd say, well,
that's essentially a four and a half era. Who wants
to brag about that? But man, that's a badge of honor.
Now if you go six and allow three earned runs

(10:16):
or less, well just even going six, You know, guys,
are puffing their chest out. I love surprising you with questions.
You have no idea of coming, Joe. So I'm going
to ask you, in a twenty twenty four season, what
percentage of starts do you believe where quality starts starting
pitcher goes at least six gives up no more than
three earned runs. What percentage thirty three percent? That's a

(10:39):
very good guess. It's actually thirty six percent. Okay, So
you should be proud of something that's not, you know,
done only basically one out of every three times. All right,
let's go back now just ten years. We don't have
to go back to the seventies when guys are throwing
three hundred ea things. Right, go back ten years, twenty
fourteen season. What do you think the percentage was then?

Speaker 3 (11:01):
I'd say it was at least fifty percent. I'd say
I'll say, I'll say fifty five, sixty.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Percent, fifty four percent. So in ten years the percentage
of quality starts has gone from fifty four percent to
thirty six percent. I mean, that's that's a major change
in the game. That's giving so many more innings to
relieve pictures.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
That's it. That's it.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
Puem that's that's it. I mean, that's a it's a
shift in an implementation. What do we want here? What
are we trying to accomplish? It's there's a there's a
version of brainwashing involved with that too. Should be fifty
or more percent. It should be and it can be
again again, it's just about what you're teaching, what you're expecting,
what you're with the what are the expectations you're laying
out for the pictures themselves? And again, how are we

(11:44):
going to achieve this? Give me, give me a roadmap
on how to get this thing done here. And part
of it is like I'll just give James Shields as
an example. She was just to get upset with me
every John Lackey every time. But Lackey was older. But
Shieldsy hated coming out of games and he wanted to
pitch more deeply in the games. And I said, quite frankly,
you know when he hit a certain number, James, everything
seems to fall off a cliff.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
And I'm nobody told me this.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
I'm just watching because of my sheet always kept numbers
of pitches per inning, and then of course the totals,
et cetera.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
And I told him, I says, well, oh wait, your
your your waterloo.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Man.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Every after everything after that is it. It goes downhill. And
he took it in stride, didn't like it, but did
something about it. And I never wanted to take Jim
James Shields. I mean, if he did six, like a
quality start, that would really upset him. It needed to
be more than that. It's a mindset, man, and whatever
we really push our young players' pitchers to do, if

(12:34):
you give them a challenge to do something more dramatic
like six plus seven, like I'd like you to get
that done in one hundred and one hundred and ten
twelve to fifteen pitches. That's that's your goal. And this
third time through, I want you to work very hard
as you're coming up to really become creative and understand
how to get hitters out the third time they've seen you.

(12:54):
This is the kind of conversation. It's not data explanation.
This is instinct and ability has to take over. And
that's that's what I would do, because there's no reason
why with all the training, the bodies, the strength, everything else,
that it's become less than as opposed to more than.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Well. Last year, talking about free agent starting pitchers. The
Royals and the Mets really did well. I mean the
Royals with Seth Lugo and Michael Waka found themselves in
the postseason. The Mets with Jean Manaya and Luis Severino
found themselves in the postseason kind of under the radar,
if you will, certainly cheap signings without a lot of

(13:31):
length to those contracts. So teams are going to look
to replicate that this off season. So Jo going to
make you my president of Baseball Operations and give you
the field now, so to speak, what's still out there
free agent wise on the market. I'm going to divide
them up into a couple of different categories.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
Here.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
I'll start with the top of the market, which is
Corbyn Burns and Max Freed. You've got the older pitchers
still looking probably for one year deals, Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer,
Charlie Morton. And then you have that next tier, that
second tier below the t guys Nathan Evaldi, Jack Flaherty,
Jean Manaiah Walker, Buehler, Jane Bieber, and Luis Severino. So

(14:13):
I'm giving you a budget, unlimited budget. Where do you
want to go in this free agent feel what's left
out there.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Joe, beyond the names and beyond whatever. I would look
for two things. Something to prove in health. I mean,
these guys that really feel like they have something to prove,
yet they're really motivated. Like you took Severino and Manea
from last year as an example, Seth Lugo really motivate
it to become starters, improve things, prove people that to

(14:39):
people that listen, I'm a little bit better than your thought.
And that's really what really great athletes love to do.
People that feel as though they've been slided a bit
or not really appreciate it, but they want to go
out there the proverbial chip on the shoulder. That's what
I would look at if I'm trying to evaluate this,
I would as a front office type, I would look there.
That would be part of it for me. When you

(15:00):
talk about Waka and Lugo specifically, I've always liked Logo.
Like I said, it was always amazed that the Mets
didn't use him even more when they had him back
in the day and when he became a starter. I
thought that was a wonderful IDEA. Walk, on the other hand,
was not good in Saint Louis from me. He started
out great, went the other way, then all of a
sudden changed his method of pitching. He just became sharper

(15:21):
with his command. The changeup became really good or the
split whatever that is. And all of a sudden, this
guy started to become better. And even his attitude on
the mound, his ability to control situations, I thought observationally
became better. So to me, just as a visual scout,
not looking at that or whatever else, these guys were
appealing to me based on that. So look again, the

(15:43):
names I can't remember specifically all the names that you
just said.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
However, I would look into this.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
I'd get my group together and we're talking about, Okay,
among these guys, who do you feel is really motivated
to prove them something? And among these guys who do
we deem to be the most healthy because they've had success,
they're established major league pictures in a sense.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
So if we're going to bet on one of these.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Guys or two of these, are three of these guys
really turning it on and coming back to another level,
who would that be? I would use those ideas or
thoughts as a criterion and regarding to how I'm going
to evaluate this group.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, for me, I'm gonna start with Corbyn Burns. To me,
he's the top of the market. The price is going
to be really high. I get that, but he's one
of the few pitchers who has been durable in the
last four years. I think he's second in strikeouts. He's
up there at the innings pitched, he takes the ball.
He's a competitor. My guess is he's gonna wind up
on the West Coast somewhere where he's from. We'll see.

(16:36):
And I liked what you were saying, Joe, about guys
who want to prove something. And I have no idea
what the medicals look like, but I would take a
flyer on Shane Bieber for that reason. He's been one
of the best pitchers in the game, like Michael Waka
and like Sean Manaya. He's a very good teammate. I
think he has the ability to make younger pitchers better
by you just work habits, coaching them up, being there

(16:59):
for them. I just like his makeup. And again I
don't know what the medical look like. You have to
start with that when you take a flyer on somebody,
but I like that profile. You established Joe somebody who
has something to prove, and he's been at the top,
and you know he's a competitor, and you know he
wants to get back there.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, that's I'm tinking. It goes beyond all these other
numerical concepts. You know, you just gather as much information
as you possibly can, and then you've got to trust
yourself a little bit here too. He's got to be
a version of baseball acumen, history in your in your heart,
your gut, your mind. You've got to be able to
rely on these things.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
And so for me, like.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
I said, watching Lugo's success and walka success did not
surprise me in the least based on observation in your
descriptions right there, Bieber and Birds, I mean, I saw
Burns last year. It just seemed a little bit off
to me. Some of the games I saw not as
sharp as he happened. But he will be as long
as he's health. He's going to show that again. For
whatever reason, it wasn't as top dog as he had been.

(17:57):
And Bieber, on the other hand, I mean, this guy, Yeah,
he's been as good as there's been over the last
several years. So there's a perfect examples. But at the
end of the day, man, this is where I think
true scouting acumen helps a lot eyeballs. People that really
know what they're looking at and have like this disability
to reflect and compare and contrast. That would be a

(18:18):
big part of this evaluation process for me.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, I also like guys who throw strikes, you command
the baseball, and those two guys stand out to me.
You know, you mentioned sometimes these teams work up cocktails
in terms of pitch mixes. I get that it definitely
can be a huge turning point for a lot of pitchers.
But when it comes to getting a guy to throw
more strikes, that's a little bit harder for me.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, that's like trying to ask a hitter to stop
striking out or accept more walks.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
It's, you know, this is who you are.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
It's the spots you got, the spots on a leopard,
at your zits, that's your acne, it's your all these
different things that are just not perfect. So it's hard
to change those things. It really is just to think
you're going to snap your fingers and you're going to
have come up with this equation or formula. It might
happen once in a while. But I'm telling you, as
a hitting coach, I would try to it's easier. I
always thought to try to get guys a strike out

(19:09):
less as opposed to accepting more walks. When it comes
down to throwing strikes or striking people out, it depends
on whether they're at developmentally, how old they are, their delivery,
if you can make some corrections there. But for the
most part, man, our personalities are Our personalities or ability
to throw strikes are pretty much the same on our
ability to control the strikes own is the same from
the time you're probably fourteen fifteen, sixteen years old.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Well, we don't know what's going to happen at the
Winter Meetings. My guest is we probably will get a
Wan Soto signing by the end of the Winter Meetings.
I'm still expecting that to be the New York Mets.
They seem to be the leader in the clubhouse. But
we'll see how that plays out. By no means is
that over. But one thing we know Joe's going to
happen at the Winter Meetings is there'll be a meeting
on Sunday night. Sixteen people walk into a room and

(19:54):
decide among six candidates who if anybody belongs in the
Hall of Fame. We'll talk about that vote and who
is up for a lo election. Right after this Sunday night,

(20:17):
at the Winter Meetings, the Classic Baseball Committee will meet
at sixteen people, a group of Hall of Famers, executives
and veteran media members, to discuss eight candidates on the ballot.
It doesn't mean anybody's guaranteed to get in. To carry
the day, you need twelve out of the sixteen votes.
The voters can vote for zero if they want, but

(20:39):
no more than three. So the way the math worked out,
the last couple of years when these committees met, we
got one each time. Before that, we were getting on
average a little more than two. But they changed the
voting rules. They made the ballot smaller and thus have
fewer choices to make voting for three instead of four.
So the last two years, that's the way that Fred

(21:00):
McGriff and Jim Leland got their path to the Hall
of Fame. I want to go through the candidates this year, Joe,
because I think it's really, really, it's always difficult. I've
been in those rooms and I can just tell you
it's the integrity of the process should not be in question.
There's a frank discussion. It's all behind closed doors, it's

(21:21):
all off the record. Everybody gets a fair shake in
that room. I don't believe that there are favorites going
in the way some media members like to portray it.
Things just happened. Like a jury room. You get in
there and you talk about each guy, and then you
start getting favorites. So let's talk about people on the ballot,
and I'll go alphabetically here. I'm got to start with
Dick Allen. Dick Allen, Joe had an amazing career. Maybe

(21:42):
he didn't play as long or in terms of injuries,
had some shortened seasons. But I remember Goose Gossage telling
me that Dick Allen was the best player he ever
played with. And Goose Gossage played like forever, play on
great teams with a lot of great players. I think
he's been underrated and over the course of history. You're
an Eastern PA guy, I'm sure you've got great memories

(22:03):
of Dick.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Oh my god, I vote yes. He was one of
my all time favorites. Also, someone in the Phillies in
the early sixties hit the line drive off the right
center field scoreboard against Steve Carlton. I don't even know
sixty whatever that was. Got to visit with him once
before a game in Quad Cities. I was hitting coach.
There was sitting in the stands doing my notes, and

(22:25):
Dec Allen sitting behind me in the uniform.

Speaker 3 (22:27):
We started talking.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
He was there for some kind of a All Star
Hall of Fame kind of a thing, and God did
other my conversation with him. One of the most third hitters,
great hitters, great athlete hit so many things well, scary
as hell. I mean, this guy, God, he's this big
old bat and the ball just whistled off and just
pure entertainment. Watching him hit was absolutely entertaining as hell.

(22:52):
Had his moments where he bought some different things in
the dirt and Conny Maac Stadium, but people were getting
on it.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
But up and down, man, I'm all about this guy.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Power, hitting ability, hitting better pictures too. He wore I
guess him and Nolan Ryan, and he did pretty well.
I think it was Nolan Ryan that he gave a
hard time too. All about dick out, I'd absolutely say yes.
I don't know the exact numbers, I know they're really good.
But to me, this guy was as dangerous a hitter
as there was at that in that period of time,
and one of the most misunderstood guys. Because everybody that

(23:22):
I've met that knew him and my personal conversations with him,
it was absolutely wonderful.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, I mean, listen, no one really can relate to
what he went through. As you know, one of the first,
if not the first black stars for the Philadelphia Phillies.
They actually sent him as a youngster to Triple A
to Little Rock, Arkansas and he was the first black player,
so he integrated the Arkansas team, the Little Rock team
in Arkansas. Wow, I mean, just think about that. So

(23:50):
when you talk about, you know, not getting along with managers,
front office fans. He mentioned the way he would write
words in the dirt. You have to think about the
context of the early sixties and even seventies and what
that man faced well.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
Little Rock Arkansas.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
As a manager in the Texas League, I had a
really bad experience there protecting some of my black players
on that team, quite frankly, and that was nineteen eighty five,
I think it was eighty five, eighty six something in there,
So I can't even imagine what he went through with
that particular juncture in his career. Yeah, listen, I'm just
saying purely on baseball ability. And he's from like a
swamp on PA, which was out west in western Pennsylvania.

(24:28):
So much respectful what these guys did and how they
did it, and eventually, you know, turn into the people
that they did.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
He just belongs there.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
He's it's from his fiscal attributes, his abilities, the road
that he took to get there, how he survived through
all of that. He did upset some people, but they're like,
you're suggesting us put in the same situation. We may
have reacted in the same way. We don't know that.
But Dick Allen to me is a Hall of Fame
baseball player with that kind of ability, and hopefully that

(24:58):
it does occur because I'm a big, big fan.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, Dick Allen is one of only four hitters who
not in the Hall of Fame who has a career
adjusted OPS, which takes into consideration, you know, the hitting
environment at the time in the parks that you played
in of one fifty or better over at least seventeen
hundred games. The other three, the only other three not
in the Hall of fame with those thresholds are Barry Bonds,

(25:23):
Mark McGuire, and Manny Ramirez. And you know what they
all have in common.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
That's that's pretty impressed.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
I of course you do some great research, but I
didn't realize that.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
But I just know what I saw.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Man, this guy was he was when the Orlando Cepaida
and Dick Allen are my two favorite Major league hitters
as a kid growing up.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
You were also a Cardinals fan growing up. And there's
a one of the most consistent Cardinals ever on this ballot.
That's Ken Boyer, one of the most reliable players that
you could have, nineteen sixty four MVP and probably the
best defensive third basement in the National League in his prime.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
And his brother was the best, one of the best
in the American League. I mean, Kim Boy.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
He had a Grand Slam in that World Series. I
think the Cardinals won four to three based on his
Grand Slam in New York City. I believe that's accurate. Yeah, listen,
that whole Cardinal group in sixty four, they wore the
All Star infield. It was him, Maxville, Leon, Javier Bill White,
with Carver and of course Brock and Flood in the outfit.
I think shn It might have been playing right field

(26:24):
at that time. Then, of course their entire pitching staff,
but ken Bore was number fourteen.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
Always one of my favorites.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
You know, this is the thing I get to listen
on the radio, listened to km O X, listen to
Harry Carey and Jack Buck speak about him all the time.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
They never got to see him.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Play, but a huge fan, steady guy from from what
I read. Also, and gosh, there's a compelling argument for
him too. I think Dick Allen played some third base,
two first base. Kenny Bore outstanding third basement and like
you said, heritage wise, him and his brother were two
of the best.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
From in nine seasons from fifty six to sixty four,
he drove in ninety runs eight times, made seven All
Star teams, and won five Gold Glow. And in that
stretch he obviously won the sixty four MVP. He may
have an uphill climb. To me, his numbers are very
similar to Robin Ventura, and he's actually behind Greg Nettles

(27:15):
and Buddy Bell as far as third baseman when it
comes to war and total bases. But his consistency, I
think certainly it deserves a long discussion. Now here's where
it gets difficult. Joe I mentioned that these guys have
at gals have a very difficult assignment here because you
mentioned Dick Allen played some third base, a sort of
a contemporary of Ken Boyer. You can sort of go

(27:36):
head to head with those two. But we're talking about
a ballot in which, you know, one player began in
nineteen oh eight and another finished in nineteen ninety one.
And we've got pitchers, we've got position players, so it's
not all apples to apples. I'm going next to John Donaldson.
His career actually predated the Negro League's organization in nineteen twenty,

(27:58):
so he started out in nineteen oh eight. He's a
left handed pitcher and he played. He did event get
to the Negro leagues. He pitched for a long time,
but he pitched for a lot of barnstorming teams. He
pitched for a lot of semi pro teams. He was
a very popular pitcher. He's prolific and people would call

(28:18):
him famous, famous John Donaldson like he pitched all the time.
He actually provided the path that Satchel Page would follow,
where you know these guys were drawing cards. They put
barnstorming teams around the country and phil places as they played.
In nineteen fifty two, the Pittsburgh Courier had a poll
and they pulled the Negro League players at the time

(28:39):
and they asked them to put together the first all
time Negro League's team. He was on that team. John
Donaldson was a pitcher on that team. And he's one
of only three players who was picked by players by
his peers to be on the all time Negro Leagues
team who is not in the Hall of Fame yet.
So it's a difficult case because we don't have complete statistics,
but there's certainly an argument here for someone who gave

(29:01):
so much to the game.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Is it even fair?

Speaker 2 (29:04):
I mean, to include him with the names that we
know more about the more contemporary group is almost like this.
People like him belong in an absolutely separate category. There's
really no way. I mean, like, I just able to
rattle off stuff about Dick Gallen, Ken Boyer, Little Rock, Arkansas.
You know, in my existence, John Donaldson, I've obviously never

(29:26):
even heard about the guy. But what you're saying sounds magnificent.
So I just think it requires a different criterion to
establish whether or not the guy belongs there, and he's
got to be set up against a different group and
almost a group study the people that may induct him
to really, you know, spend time in trying to research

(29:46):
this at the point where they could speak of him
as though I just extemporaneously spoke about it Dick Gallen.
So I don't have any clear answers on that, except
I do believe something like that should not be compared
to the guys that more recent and that a separate
committee should be set up just for people from that particular.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Well, let's get back to a contemporary of Dick Allens.
That's Steve Garvey. Steve Garvey had he polled forty percent
in the first time he was on the writer's ballot.
He's the only one who debuted on the ballot at
that kind of a number and was not elected. In fact,
his support went down over the years. People forget I think,

(30:26):
who didn't watch Steve Garvey player be around it. He
was one of the most famous and accomplished baseball players
of his generation, and he's also one of the all
time greatest postseason hitters. From seventy four to eighty one.
Garby made the All Star team every year, He received
MVP votes every year, was named the MVP of the

(30:46):
All Star Game the National League. In the NLCS, when
four gold Gloves played in three World Series, had more
total bases than any hitter in baseball over that period.
And that's when he began his streak, which still stands
as a National League record of more than twelve hundred
consecutive game. And I mentioned the postseason. His career batting

(31:06):
average is three thirty eight. Only one player who came
to the play one hundred and fifty times in the
postseason has a higher batting average in the postseason, and
that's Louke Gerrig. Steve Garvey, though Joe, is a case
where people have applied retroactively some of the hallmarks of
analytics to his playing career. Steve Garvey, his career was
based on putting the ball in play, driving in runs,

(31:30):
and being there every day. Right, those things have been devalued.
What he did not do was he didn't walk. He
didn't hit a lot of power for a first basement,
so the rate stats are not kind to him. So
Steve Garvey, I think in retrospect, looking at his career,
what we know about analytics doesn't shine as much as
he did when he was actually playing. Give me your

(31:51):
thoughts on Steve Garvey.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, I mean, listen, he was a great player, a
good felt like. I've gotten to know Steve a little bit,
and everything you say there really describes as a winning
baseball player, you know, somebody that you really want on
your team, especially those Dodgers groups in that particular era,
moving the baseball, putting it in play, with all the
different attributes they have, the speed, guys head on their team,

(32:14):
the kind of baseball that the Dodgers played, it's almost
like describing like a for a baseball player, a guy
that's like such a he's better than a Triple A player,
but he's not quite a Major leaguer. And like with
Steve Garby, you're talking about somebody I think that was
a really very good major League baseball player, but not
quite the Hall of Famer. Just he's the kind of
guy you want on your team to win. But you know,

(32:37):
the Hall of Fame's looking for like over the top
production and numbers in different categories, and I just think
he might fall short there a little bit. But as
a baseball player. You absolutely wanted him on your team,
and he's going to be a winning kind of player.
And that's how I look at Steve Garvey as a
winning kind of baseball player.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah, I guess, especially in the power department, it's hard
to measure him against Dick Allen and our next candidate,
Dave Parker. There's no question there was probably a twelve
year period there where Dave Parker was among the best
all around players in the game. Wasn't just the power,
it was the defense, it was the ability to hit
for average. He went back to back batting titles, three
goal gloves, six All Star Games. How about Dave Parker

(33:20):
for you.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
Well, that's that's your striking A really warm court in
my heart. I love Dave Parker. Dave Parker was a
coach with the Angels in the mid nineties.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
While I was there, I never met anybody to that
point that I thought was as comfortable in a Major
League baseball field as he was. He's a big man,
larger than life, really sharp, funny, funny, and a real
wonderful teammate that stuck up for He really was kind
of like my guardian angel that whole time. He liked
me and I liked him, and we always had great conversations. Okay,

(33:49):
that's personal, But the stuff you're talking about on the field,
it's almost like he's very close to a Dick Allen
for me. I mean the way he played and how
we played again, he was on a winning group.

Speaker 3 (33:58):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but
he's he's right there with Dick Gallen, you know the
other names mentioned. I have him ahead of those guys,
and I'd love to see it happening. And this is
real personal for me with him.

Speaker 3 (34:11):
I like him that much.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
He was that good of a teammate to me personally,
and you had to watch him throw a baseball from
right field to watch him the way he hit a baseball,
the way he started to bat not unlike a Dick Allen.
There was a uniqueness to their batting styles that really
show your attention to them. But I'll hear tell you, man,
he really got to know David Parker. He's just a

(34:36):
wonderful dude. And I know he's struggling right now. I
think it's Parkinston's right, but I'd go from right now
the list of game I've got Dick Allen first, and
i got David right behind him.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Dave Parker was a career two ninety hitter with two thousand,
seven hundred and twelve hits and three hundred and thirty
nine home runs. He's one of only fourteen players in
the game's history to reach those thresholds. So that's a
long time playing with power and hitting for average. Our
next candidate is a man, Vic Harris. He definitely played

(35:06):
as well. Played seventeen seasons, mostly in center field, eleven
as a manager, almost all of it with the Homestead Grays,
and they were a dynasty if you will. Back in
the negro Leagues, Vic Harris managed eleven years with the
Grays and they finished in first place eight of those
eleven years. That's a record for first place finishes in
the Negro Leagues for a manager. His forty eight team

(35:28):
won the Negro League World Series that was the last
one to be played. They beat the Birmingham Black Barons
and seventeen year old Willie Mays. He was on the
ballot before the twenty twenty two Early Baseball Committee ballot.
He received ten votes, so he felt two votes short
of election in that balloting. Vicious Vic, they called him.

(35:49):
He was so tough, both as a player and as
a manager. So vicious Joe, what do you think of
Vicious Vic the one manager on this list?

Speaker 2 (35:57):
I think I even being discussed with those kind of credentials,
he belongs in there. Again, this is part of a
different era, different set of criterion to establish membership or not.
So for me, just based on your description of Donaldson
and Harris, again, I would put them into separate categories
and they both would qualify. For me, it makes sense,

(36:19):
and it would be great to represent those different eras
and styles of play in the Hall, and it would
bring attention to those those moments. So if this guy
went eight out of ten or eleven and a World
Series on top of that, my god, if he did
that in present day baseball, obviously he's walking to the
Hall of Fame.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
It's like it's Boche on steroids, man it You know.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
I that that absolutely, to me, would would be an
easy fit. But again, like I'm saying, like Alan Boyer,
Garvey Parker belonged to one group and consideration and Donaldson
and Harris belong to a completely different group. And from
what you're describing, to me, they both sound like they're
very worthy and qualified to be there.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
Well, our last two you can compare head to head
because their pitchers are pretty much the same era. Let's
start with Tommy John. He has won more games and
thrown more innings since nineteen hundred than any pitcher not
connected to steroids. Only Roger Clemens is more wins and innings.
And of course there's the eponymous Tommy John surgery, which

(37:24):
actually should have been named for the surgeon, doctor Frank Joe.
But doctor Joe was such a humble man, unlike just
about ninety percent of the people in the medical field,
he named the procedure after his patient rather than himself.
But Tommy John really was the first one to successfully
come back from that surgery that changed the game two

(37:44):
hundred and eighty eight wins? Is it, Tommy John? What
do you think you pitched twenty six seasons?

Speaker 3 (37:49):
Right? I mean I knew TJ.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
Also, I caught him a lot in spring trainings, not
in games, but in workout situations. The guy just threw
and threw and threw every day, and he never threw
the ball over in the middle of the plate. Was
always on the edges or off the edges. Really interesting personality.
Those numbers are substantial.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
I mean to do.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Twenty six seasons to be healthy for twenty six seasons
also speaks volumes there, and you would think that he'd
end up with Tommy John surgery after throwing twenty.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
Six seasons at some point. But yeah, maybe I'm being
an easy greater right now. But I like that name too.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
I like that too, and I knew doctor job also,
as we're going down this list right now, I don't
see any reason why not. I don't understand what would
keep you from wanting to keep I mean, that's that's
not quite Warren spawn numbers, but it's spawny.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
I think had three hundred and sixty some wins.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Is Jim Cotton numbers. Though Jim Cott's in the Hall
of Fame.

Speaker 3 (38:41):
Yeah, that's there.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
They're really similar kind of players and personalities too.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
Well.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
It's interesting Joe because people knock them for quote unquote compiling, right,
but there's this skill to taking that ball time after
time a year after year. And it wasn't like he
was always pitching the back of the rotation either. Jim
Cott get this. In the postseason, he had thirteen starts
in the postseason for them were in Game one. So
you as a manager, you're trusting that guy, you give
him the ball in game one. That's not a back

(39:07):
of the rotation guy. And his ERA was two point
sixty five in the postseason. He also started an opening
days six times, so five times he was in the
top five. And Cy Young.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
Voting longevity accomplishment.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
To underestimate that, my God, to compiling to be able
to have your body work that well that long and
be that accomplished, Phil Nkros, I mean, that is really
a special human being right there. So it's got to
go beyond just pure, purely numbers. I guess it's part
of the way I look at the worldview anyway. These

(39:44):
are distinctly different human beings. Caught Jimmy Cott, loved Jimmy Cott.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
I know Jim.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
I knew Spawnee really well too. But these are those
kind of left handers. I mean Whitey Ford. I mean
Whitey Ford. You know he wasn't a hard thrown left
hander either, Glavin. All these lefties like that of that ILK,
I don't see any reason why not. I think TJ
definitely belongs in there. And on top of that, the
fact that the surgery that he was the first one
too attempting and doctor names it after him, really saved

(40:12):
the careers of a lot of pitchers since then.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
So I'm saying yes on TJ.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, I spoke, by the way in the top five,
and Cy Young he was only twice, that was seventy
nine and eighty. He's a twenty game winner with the Yankees.
But yeah, I mean, for me, it's hard to separate
Tommy John from say Burt pl e eleven and Jim Cott.
And I do think for people who last that long
in this game, and again a lot of times as
a number one starter, those are outliers. The Hall of

(40:38):
Fame is about outliers. And the other one lost candidate here,
Joe Luis Tiant, unfortunately just passed away one of the
most entertaining and prolific pitchers in an era that was
dominated by starting pitchers. He pitched nineteen years for six teams,
often as the ace, two hundred and twenty nine wins

(40:58):
with a three to three ERA over almost thirty five
one hundred innings, won two ERA titles, twenty game winner
four times, and finish in the top five. And Cy
Young voting two times. But of course you think about
Louis Tian. You don't think about the numbers. You think
it about the way that you know he changed his
arm angle, the gyrations, the change of speeds, just the

(41:19):
pure joy of watching this guy. He turned pitching into entertainment.
Louis Tiant, What do you think?

Speaker 3 (41:25):
I love them too? Is another?

Speaker 2 (41:27):
I mean, I can't. I can't believe. But you're talking
about these guys. How many actually know or knew? Yeah,
Louis came to an event for me in Pennsylvania years
ago for the Hazelton Integration Project.

Speaker 3 (41:37):
He was a huge hit.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
What a wonderful man, What a pleasant person.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
To speak with, sweetheart?

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Oh my god. So anyway, again, I think he's a
four A guy. I think he's just not He's a
knocking on a door but not quite in there. And
he was entertaining and you'd wanted to that. You talk
about the Marquee matchups. If I'm going to take my
kid to see a game, I'm looking for when tis pitching, Well,
I want to go see Tian versus I don't know,

(42:04):
Tommy John. At some point, you know that would be
an entertaining day when you have those kind of Marquis
starting pitchers. That was a big part of why you
wanted to see a game, go to a game, or
definitely see the buck score the next morning, because there
was definitely no highlights on TV that night, or there
was no ESPN.

Speaker 3 (42:19):
At that moment.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
So louis tiant, different category, human being, wonderful, great picture, yes,
But I think he might just fall short.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
I just think it's a four A situation. And God, I.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Hate that because the guy was great to me, great
to our foundation here, and he's was a wonderful human being,
lovely man.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
But I just think you falls short a little bit.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
Well, now, Joe, you have an idea of how difficult
this job is because if you're in that room, you
can vote for no more than three.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
Yeah, and that.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
That is very hard. And again it's hard because we're
talking about, you know, different positions on the field and
different eras of the game. It covers a lot of
ground with a lot of good candidates. I have no
idea how this is going to turn out other than
I think because when you just do the math, when
there's so many good candidates, it's hard to get multiple
candidates over that threshold of getting twelve out of the

(43:13):
sixteen votes, I.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
Got three, then I go Dick Allen, Dave Parker and TJF.
If I was permitted three votes, I would go there.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
We'll find out that a Sunday night. We will find
out about who, if anybody, is the newest Hall of Famers. Hey,
when we get back, I want to talk about someone
I mentioned this is the top retired from his sport
as one of the greatest ever. Didn't get a lot
of a play in the media, but I think there's
some parallels here to what's happening in baseball these days.

(43:42):
Get back to that right after this. Welcome back to
the Book of Joe Podcasts and Joe. I'm guessing you've
not heard the name Mark Cavendish. Have not, Mark Cavendish,

(44:03):
And I say that with all due respect to you,
because I know you like to bike. You like to
get on your bike.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
I do. I'm going to do that today.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Okay. Mark Cavendish is probably the greatest sprinter in cycling
that there ever has been. Wow, he just retired at
the age of thirty nine. He's born in Wales. Long career, obviously,
but what caught me was Mark is five foot nine okay,
and he set the record for the most wins and
sprint wins in cycling history. And when he left, he said,

(44:33):
you know what, I could not be this successful in
today's sport of cycling as I have been over the years.
And his point was, you look around now, it's all
about power riding the bike. These guys are big. Now
there's six foot two. He was five foot nine. And
the way he said he won races was with being
a great tactician and willpower as well. And he said,

(44:56):
now you look around and these guys are all in
the labs. They're all, you know, getting really really big.
It's all about pure power. The tactician is not really
valued as much in cycling. Here was this quote. If
you look, if you look at cycling, it's power in
the lab. He said, I would if I looked at

(45:19):
myself in the lab, I would not stand out at all.
But I had great self belief and a lot of
people would call that arrogance, but it's just about I
knew what I was capable of achieving. It's interesting he
mentioned that term lab because a lot of baseball these
days is built in the lab. And it's a good
thing because we're making people better. But we've talked a

(45:42):
lot on this podcast, Joe about balance, and I think
this was just a good reminder that, you know, the
other side of it, that's sort of like what can't
be quantified made this guy who he was the greatest
sprint cyclist there ever was.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
The mind brother, the mind.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
You got to beat him with your brain sometimes, you know,
you just hate there's rather the comparison. I've been playing,
you know, a lot of golf and playing with the
young man yesterday. There's no way last two days, there's
no way could have hit a golf ball that far
at any age what these guys.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
Are doing right now.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
And then you have to, you know, try to get
your best drive and then after that be as accurate
as you can even just to keep up with them.
It's that's ridiculous. And back to the cyclists and the bigger,
better bodies, but they can't pitch six innings or two
hundred regardless of all the training that they've been doing.
What's I mean, if you're bigger, stronger, and in a

(46:32):
sense physically better, why are you unable to produce that
kind of outcome that had been done before by Tommy
John or a Louis Tiant or Spanny. Spanny wasn't that big?
I mean, why you did mention bigger and better? They
are in a sense, But when it comes down to
actually playing the game of producing results, are they You've

(46:55):
talked about Montas getting that much money for some really
mediocre seasons. These are the kind of incongruities that really
are difficult to deal with. But I do believe and
I really resonated to me regarding your the cyclist's evaluation,
you have to beat them with your mind. Sometimes you
got to beat them with your brain. It's not always
about the physical component. It is about balance, so that

(47:17):
that's always been.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
Really important to me.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
That's where the word Ryan really becomes effective and important,
where you just have to be a little bit one.
You have to hold on one second longer than your
opposition does. Mentally, these are the kind of things that
I think aren't spoken about enough. So at the end
of the day, yes, there's the athletes are bigger, stronger, faster,

(47:41):
and much in football games.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
It's insane.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
These are car crashes on a football field. Who got
taken out the other day, Lawrence on that hit those
vicious was not more vicious or less than Ronnie Lott
may have done more often back in the day, but
it was vicious. So how do you beat this? How
do you beat this? These massive, physically strong people. And
it's got to down to there's got to be an

(48:05):
edge derived somewhere internally in your heart and your brain
and that's sinew that just permits you to outcompete somebody
and so never underestimate competing and like you suggested, balance,
So there's got to be a balanced all this. It
just can't be body beautiful. It's got to be a
beautiful mind also has got to be.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Part of that.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, And that's why using this cycling example, I'm not
optimistic that the trend of pitching is going to change.
I just think as the human population does get bigger,
and we know more about training, and we can add velocity,
we can add strength, these things are all being done.
I don't see it going the other way because I
don't think there's an incentive to do something different than

(48:46):
what we have now. This is the system that we
have and that's where MLB is stuck. And I know
they want to re establish who a starting pitcher is
in this placed in the game, because it should be.
As Ed Lynch once told me, it's the only position
on a field, any field. What we actually build a
pedestal for them. They stand on a mound above everybody else,
and that's the way it should be. But I'd like
to be more optimistic Joe, that we're going to go

(49:07):
back to having pictures pitch more often or at least longer.
But I don't say it based on the system we
have now. It's based pure on power and maxing out,
and these are the incentives, and the generation is now
growing up with this technology.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
You're right, I'm not gonna argue that point. I'm just
saying that I like to see an attempt. You talked
about adding velocity. There's so many things you add. You
had bigger muscles, You add stronger muscles in a sense,
you add quickness, agility, But do you add heart? How
do you measure the heart? Why is the heart not
even being considered in all this? The ability to compete
somebody that wants to win more than somebody else does.

(49:41):
The one thing that I always try to stress with
my guys that managed some really wonderful great athletes and
contemporaries in today's world compete, man, I want the group
that out competes the other group on a nightly basis.
That's where the Tampa Bay Rays could have beaten the
New York Yankees in two thousand and eight and nine.
Whatever Red Sox, They're economical advantage was large. Was you

(50:05):
can't even fathom how the difference between payrolls and money
spent and abilities regarding that. But my line to my
guys every night was, you know, we got to play
a better game of baseball. We got to beat them
again with their minds in our hearts and out compete
the groups.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
But that's not even talked about. It's not even spoken about.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
Well, Joe, I think it has to be this time
of year especially. I mean, if you're a front office guy,
you've got to do the intel. Like to me, again,
I don't know what the medicals look like, but a
Justin Verlander, a Max scherz Er, I want them around
my guys. I want them in the clubhouse. I've got
to do the research. Which guys are going to be
team oriented, which guys want to win more than anything else. Yeah,

(50:45):
I'll look at all the numbers. I'll look at your
spin rates. Absolutely, but that to me is the deciding
factor watching the Dodgers play. The Dodgers had a bunch
of grinders this year, you know, coming from five runs
down to win Game five and you know, facing elimination
to San Diego and winning too straight without giving up
a run. They got a really good group of guys. Yeah,
so that's got to be part of the equation.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
It is for me. I mean, that was the thing.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
I'll go back to our sixteen group when we had
it like a David Ross that year.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
I remember, I'm now here in Tampa.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
I can remember exactly where I was parked in this
parking lot because THEO set it up for me to
speak with David. First time I did it was in
my nineteen sixty seven Galaxy convertible. I'm sitting in the
backro I'm sitting talking to David Ross and really being
impressed with David Ross, and I knew he was going
to bring to our team everything that you just talked
about right there that we were missing. Miggey Montero brought

(51:37):
a lot of that edge to our group that we
were missing the two thousand and eight Rays. It was
Troy Percival, it was Eric Kinsky, it was Cliff Floyd
that brought that edginess to our group that we needed
to get over the top.

Speaker 3 (51:52):
The unmeasurables immeasurable.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
You can't measure that stuff unless you actually perceive it
to be important, and then you can look for recognize it,
want it, and then cultivate it and get it. And
these teams that want to win, like you said, the
Dodgers really did exemplify all that. It was a combination
of wonderful physical talent and innate competitive nature and wanting

(52:14):
to win. Difference Maker Michael Jordan, Lebron James, all these dudes,
Pat Mahomes, all these guys have this different motor. They
got a different motor man, and if you're going to win,
you need that different motor.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Well, Mark Cavendish had a different motor and you know
when he saw the finish line, he sprinted like nobody else.
And so that makes you, Joe are Mark Cavendish. Finished
line is ahead, You're going to take us to the
finish line. What do you got today?

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Yeah, I think it applies again. One of my favorites
has always been Colin Powell. Really was so disappointed he
never ran for president. I thought he'd have been the
perfect guy at a time we really needed that kind
of leadership. And this is a quote, and then it's
an explanation of the coach are really fine, pertinent everything

(53:00):
we just.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
Talked about, and he talked.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
He spoke about dig up all the information you can,
then go with your instincts. This is a general speaking
right now, guy's in charge of a lot of human lives.
There will never be enough information to guarantee a perfect decision.
Powell strikes an insightful balance with this advice, which is
applicable to combat career moves and everything in between. Rather

(53:24):
than try to think your way through complex problems, it's
better to trust that internal voice. The subtle magic is
that by digging up all the information you can, you
feed and inform your instincts.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
God do I love that.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
Another way of talking about Blink and Malcolm Gladwell and
all that stuff. But then my little note after that
perfectly explains my mindset when it comes to prepping for
and managing a game of baseball. Really well thought out,
well said, And this guy was an outstanding leader.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
He wasn't a control he was an empower error.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
And so when I read that I read his autobiography
years ago, and I thought it was spectacular, so I
just went with him today.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
The subtle magic.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
Yeah, well said as always put a bow on this
edition of the Book of Joe and Joe Well, next time,
I will talk to you from the Winter Meetings, and
hopefully we have lots to talk about.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
Where are the Winter Meetings, Dallas? Okay, We'll have fun, brother,
looking forward to it.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
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