On today's episode, Jason talks with Browns Writer for The Athletic Zac Jackson now that Cleveland has the most interesting QB room in the league. Jackson breaks down how the Browns chose to finally draft Shedeur Sanders in the 5th round and looks at what his role may be with the team going forward. Jackson explains why Dillon Gabriel should not be viewed as a starting quarterback and details how the franchise will handle the albatross of Deshaun Watson's contract. Jackson gives insight on the tumultuous path that led to Myles Garrett getting a record extension to stay in Cleveland. Plus, Jason reacts to Tuesday's NBA action, including a fiery end to the Bucks' season.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is straight Fire with Jason McIntyre.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
What is up fire, fam, It's me Jason McIntyre. Straight
Fire for Wednesday, April thirtieth, final day of the month
is here, and oh my gosh, do we have a
couple of big, big, big, huge NBA games tonight? Minnesota
tries to knock the Lakers out up three to one
(00:33):
games out here in LA. A lot of Lakers fans
think it's over. I am on records saying it's not over. Obviously,
that's a big one tonight, as well as Golden State
at Houston Warriors trying to knock out the Rockets. Two
of those series if has been phenomenal. The NBA action
last night was hella good. However, I do need to
remind you we'll only do a few minutes NBA here
(00:54):
and then we will go into a great guest. Zach
Jackson covers the Cleveland Browns has covered him for a
few years. Yes, he knows the man'sal era. Okay, the
Schador era could be similar. Not from a bad perspective,
just chaos. Okay, you're gonna love this interview. I know
we're making a lot on the Cleveland Browns, and I
tell Zach this, but you know, we can look at
the numbers of the podcast and guys, the downloads for
(01:14):
some of the Schadur podcasts are through the roof, like
massive numbers. It's like, WHOA, what is this all about?
People are into the Shadoor standers story. So we'll talk
about it one more day and then after that we
will we'll pivot back to NBA. Obviously. Tomorrow is a
huge NBA podcast with the Lakers and Wolves and Warriors
and Rockets in action before we get to Zach real quick.
(01:36):
Four games. Last night, Celtics knock out the Magic That
was no big deal. Jason Tatum cooked whatever, my Knicks
up three to one, lose to the Pistons, and the
Knicks just never felt totally locked in defensively. The effort
was not there. They fouled so much. The Pistons shot
thirty six free throws. The Knick shot fifty nine percent
(01:58):
from the line. They did do the hack of Mitchell Robinson,
and Robinson was a factor plus nine when he was
on the floor eleven boards, a couple of blocks, but
they fouled him, put him on the line and he
can't shoot free throws. Three to seven However, Brunson missed
some free throws, Brunson turned an ankle eight. Brunson was
four of sixteen. Cat didn't shoot well. The Knicks came
into this game and from the jump they look like,
oh we got this. Were up three one and Detroit
(02:20):
led by Cad Cunningham Onsar Thompson at his best game
of the series despite missing a ton of free throws,
and listen, Dennis Shuter makes some timely shots and Pistons advance.
They go back to Detroit. You know it's gonna be
a juiced up crowd. I don't ever want to push
things to a game seven. You never know what conda happen.
Nicks lacked the knockout punch. It just didn't have it
(02:40):
and lose, and now they got to go to Detroit
for another game. Oh by the way, Celtics will be
waiting in the wings for at least five days of
extra rest while the Knicks are getting just in a
heavyweight knockout battle with the Pistons. Now I do have
a stronger take on Piston on sorry not Pistons, Pacers.
What nineteen bucks one eighteen. First of all, the game
(03:02):
was crazy, okay, Milwaukee largely led for most of the game.
Indiana just like my knicks came out sleepy Bucks jump
all over them. Gary Trent Junior has basically the game
of his career. He's just splashing threes left and right.
Hit eight threes. Okay, Giannas had a great game. Thirty
how about this from your honest thirty twenty and thirteen,
(03:23):
thirty twenty and thirteen miss six free throws, had seven turnovers. Nevertheless,
thirty twenty and thirteen. You do that, you're usually gonna win.
There was a brutal turnover late. Doc Rivers up seven
with thirty nine seconds left in overtime, and they gagged away.
Halliburton cooks Jannis on a layup with one second left.
Haliburton is so good, you guys could doubt them all
you want. He had twenty six and nine. I like
(03:46):
this Pacers team. Okay. Now, my old neighbor back in
pa is a huge Pacers fan from Indiana. Went to
college in Indiana, and he texted me random. He's like,
we just don't look that good. I'm like to settle down, man. Okay,
they were up three to one. I totally understand that
they didn't look good. Siakam didn't really have it. Miles
Turner showed, well, I just I like Halliburton as to
(04:09):
I think they pushed the pacers. That being said, what
was interesting was at the end of the game, and
I really don't like this, Tyrese Halliburton's dad comes out
on the floor waving a towel. Everybody's celebrating the end
of the series. Halliburton's dad kind of stands like five
feet away from Yannis and is saying stuff, and I'm like,
what are you doing. It's like, listen, man, we all
(04:30):
have dads who really are our champion and are gonna
do some stuff that are gonna embarrass us. Tyrese Haliburton
admitted he was mortified after this. So not only did
Halliburton's father say stuff to Yannis, but then Yannis eventually
he was like, all right, I'm not gonna take this
crap any more from this random fan. What the hell
is he doing on the court, And Yannis gets in
(04:51):
his face and they're face to face, exchanging words, and
Yannis is towering over this guy, and I'm just like, gosh,
that is so embarrassing. It stole the moment from Haliburt.
He just beat Yannis one on one from the three
point line takes it in for the layup. It was
Haliburton's standing on the scorer's table celebrating with the crowd.
There's an awesome photo I posted on ig It's just
(05:12):
a great moment for Haliburn, and his freaking dad makes
it about him getting in Yannis's face talking trash, like
what are you doing? Just so embarrassing. I just I
hated that he stole his son's thunder and then he
got in a player's face, like, don't do that. Who
does that? Douchey Ja Morant's dad talking trash to players
(05:34):
courts like that's not cool.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Gosh.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Now listen our parents, you know mom's dads. They obviously
like us a lot, and they're gonna defend us. And
you know, moms are gonna go online and don't say
that about my son and all that. So that's I
think that's normal. Obviously, you don't want them to do that.
You don't need to. We're all big boys, we could
take it. And I just thought Haliburton's dad really bricked there.
Did not like that at all. Also, paper Clips had
(05:58):
been up to one in the series. Good everybody's picking him.
They get drubbed in Denver and Jamal Murray starting to
look like, oh it's crunch time. I better show up
Jamal Murray. He went off, could not be stop. Russell
Westbrook had a great game, and uh, you know, James
Harden's on the side of a milk carton. But I'm
not going to take the opportunity to take a shot
at him now. But Harden with a massive no show,
(06:20):
and you know that's going to be a storyline today
once everybody gets through Halliburden and the other stuff. All Right,
without further ado, let's get to our guest, Zach Jackson
of the Athletic.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
the nation. Catch all of our shows at foxsports Radio
dot com and within the iHeartRadio app. Search FSR to
listen live. You know a guy, Jason likes to think
he knows everything when it comes to sports.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I know what sports fans want, but for everything he
doesn't he knows the guy who does. Let's just say
I know a guy who knows the guy who knows
another guy.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
All right, let's come a new guest to straight fire.
I don't believe he's appeared on the pod, but boy,
he's gonna be everywhere for the next six months to
a couple of years thanks to Shador Sanders landing in Cleveland.
Zach Jackson from The Athletic Zach, how you.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Doing, man, I'm good. It's been a wild three days, right,
So whether it's three months or three years or longer,
you know, we'll see how it goes.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, did you have to inform friends and family?
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Man, I'm gonna have to lock the iPad around you
guys from now on, Like, hey, I don't need anybody
call it up at any players. I mean this it
is wild times in Cleveland.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, so the pick gets made Saturday afternoon. There was
actually a press conference going on in the media room
for the second day picks right, and then it flashes
trade and then it's becomes obvious that it's him, So
just madness breaks out. I'm texting my editor or whatever.
Finally it settles down about ten minutes later. Jason, I
have ninety five text messages. Some of them work, but
one of them was from my fourteen year old son,
Can I get a Shador jersey? And I thought, well,
(07:58):
explains a lot. So still this morning, responding to those
getting him into him and.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Juley Kell, that's funny. I have a fourteen year old
son as well. He's not a Shadoor guy. I don't
even think he's like up on Chador going to the Browns.
But I will just say like it's been a whirlwind,
like I mean, from Kenny Pickett to Joe Flacco to
Dylan Gabriel. I need you to help us wrap our
minds around the situation. And again, I don't want to
make this with Shadoor Sanders podcast every day, but as
(08:25):
you can imagine, Zach, we've done some Chador podcasts and
the numbers have been kind of bananas. So we got
to hit give the people what they want, right to
talk me through the Browns offseason. So Watson has the Achilles,
then he reruptures in at that point is like, all right,
he's probably not playing next season. So then they swing
a trade for Kenny Pickett, and I'm just curious your
thoughts when that happened.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yeah, so that would be the first of four surprising moves, right,
all four of them to some extent. The very first
day of free agency about five hours and they make
the trade for Kenny Pickett, and it's like it makes sense.
You know, Dorny Thompson Robinson was a nice kid. He
was here for two years. He was the there's a
stat that confirms he was maybe the worst player to
ever start an NFL game, right, So they move him.
(09:06):
They get Kenny Pickett. He's played in the division. They
know what he can be, which is probably a backup.
So they're moving along. They're obviously taking a quarterback. So
the draft process starts to unfold and you come home
from the combine and the realization is that cam Ward
is going number one, and the price to get up
there is just too much. Then the Browns can do
because of the Watson t They just there's no way
they can make that trade. Right. So then Joe Flacco
(09:29):
became a surprise. And obviously Flacco has the connection here
and they know him. It makes sense now Jason that
it's settled, But at the time, to me, it was
a surprise because it's like they already have a backup
whose ceiling is bad starter in Kenny Pickett. And people
here love Joe Flacco, but he's forty years old. He
can't move right, right, Like the Browns got the best
of Joe Flacco two seasons ago. Let's just be honest.
(09:51):
So then it's like, okay, well this totally makes sense
because you know what you're getting in Joe. You know,
he's going to get into guy's asses in training camp,
he's going to command the offense. And then they're going
to bring someone else along, right, And they make the
trade to get out of Travis Hunter to add the
second first round pick, and it's like, all right, they're
playing for next year. They're going to punt on quarterback
and they get they make four selections in the first
(10:12):
sixty seven picks, no quarterback, and then at eighty or
ninety four Dylan Gabriel, who's never going to be a
starting quarterback.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You know who? Well, hold on, hold on, what do
you mean you don't think in the NFL or with
the Browns?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
He is five eleven in cleats. He's not going to
be a starting quarterback. He's just he's just not going
to be, So why take him?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Then? What do you think that was about?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
That was about? I mean, they they went through the process,
they did, they did their work, and they are they
are free to prove me wrong on that, right. But
he's just too small. This is THEFC North, this is Cleveland.
They're playing outside for at least four more seasons, right
like this is this is not going to work with
Dylan Gabriel. I think their analytic ch charting project took
them to Dylan Gabriel. I think that they you know,
(10:51):
he has arm, he played six years in college yards
a lot, but he's a backup. He just his So
now it's like, okay, we're going to Saturday. They've made
this stunning pick. They've made some interesting picks before. They've
made moves that were a little bit predictable but not
really not right off ball linebacker at thirty three, trading
out of the second pick, and then should or Sandy
they trade up twenty two spots and they take shud
(11:12):
or Sanders after everybody including them had passed on should
or Sanders multiple times. Right, and so, whatever the reason reasons,
now they're in. So now you have an extra crowded room.
You have two rookie quarterbacks who have to compete for snaps,
who when they do play Jason are gonna be playing
with third stringers and XFL guys out there right in
the summer. And you got to get a read on things.
(11:33):
So I don't know how it's gonna go. I know
Shador adds spice and adds somewhat of a ceiling to
the thing. I know, as a fifth round pick, he's
probably guaranteed almost nothing other than this summer. Right, So
of the four, when you think about it, the one
they have the biggest commitment to big picture is Dylan
Gabriel because that's a top one hundred pick. You know,
(11:53):
they gave Flaco four million in guarantees. Can You Pickett's
cap numbers a little less than three million. He's only
under contract for one year, So this thing is wide open.
I would say it's eighty percent right that the rookies
don't start that either. Can You Pickett or Joe Flacco
is going to be the starter on September tenth, But
beyond that, it's wide open. And how we get from
now in April to September. I don't exactly know how
(12:15):
that's going to go either.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, all right, let me rewind to twenty fourteen, a
heady time in Cleveland, and they ended up selecting a
certain Johnny Manzel at pick twenty two. This was a
Texas kid who obviously flashed. It was exciting as hell
at A and M. But again, a smaller quarterback. He
I'm looking it up. I don't think he started at all.
(12:36):
There was a Bengals gaming through eighteen passes that might
have been as a backup. But then in twenty fifteen
he kind of sort of got the chance to start
some games. Obviously not an NFL quarterback, and was out
of the league shortly thereafter. I'm just curious, is there
a celebrity angle that a Manzel was a celebrity quarterback.
They loved him. That's what Shador Sanders is.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I think a little bit, But I think they're completely different.
For one, they took Johnny in the first round, so
there was a big commitment there, and I would say
for two through six, Johnny didn't fail because he was
too small. Johnny had a blatant disregard for doing any
work he just did. I mean from day one, Jason,
he did not want to do the things required. And
when he did start that game against the Bengals, he
came off after a couple drives and Brian Horr sat
(13:16):
next to him and he looked at Hoyer and said,
you didn't tell me this shit was this hard, right,
and Hoyer was thinking, well, if if you'd pay attention
every now and again, right, if you'd wake up on time,
And I mean it was a disaster from our one.
The Johnny Manziel thinks. So Johnny had plenty of arms,
Johnny was mobile and made plays, and you saw that
a little bit. His life was just so disconnected from
(13:37):
football and it went so poorly in such a short
amount of time that the Browns had to move on.
So Johnny's regrets are there, and like I said, the
investment is completely different. That is a year they had
two first round picks. They used the second one on
Johnny Manzil. They also completely blew the first one and
justin Gilbert that year. Oh so yeah, So like I
get it. And then people want to say, well, he's
like Baker, Right, Baker came in. He wasn't for everybody
(13:59):
as the chip on his shoulder. That was the number
one pick, and the Browns to a large extent, we're
right about Baker Mayfield. You know, he's never going to
be the top tier guy. But Baker's had a good career.
Baker had a little bit of success in Cleveland and
then the Browns made this choice rather than extending Baker Mayfield.
And I don't think, I know, this was not way
we're talking about today. I don't think Baker would have
ever gotten to where he is now if he had
(14:20):
stayed in Cleveland. He needed to grow up right. And
so look whatever's out there about Shador. He gets a
blank slate. He starts next weekend with the Browns, and
he's going to be second in line in a rookie
mini camp. And he's going to be fourth in line
the very next day when when the veterans stuff starts
when they're allowed to join. So he's guaranteed nothing. And
if he's humbled by this process, and if he really
is his second round talent, then he will have a
(14:41):
chance to stick around. You know. My personal evaluation is
it in a couple of years, if Shador does right,
he's got a chance to play. He's accurate enough, he
has the feel all of these things we'll see, you know,
Can he ascend to that. Can the Browns put the
right pieces around him? How is it going to go
this summer? I don't know. I know, Kevin Stefanski, you
know it's gonna to run an open quarterback competition, and
that's different than what we've seen generally. The Browns do
(15:04):
not have very competitive training camps. So you know how
they're going to do this and how it's going to
be different than the last three years, which was just
awful training camps. Watching Watson throw five yard passes into
the ground all day long. We'll see how that goes.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, what does it say that Watson has not really
thrived at all even when healthy with Stefanski? Yet Joe
Flacco was able to put together a pretty memorable run
and get them to the playoffs. I know he vomited
all over himself in that Texas game, but still does
that mean that maybe a better option for Stefanski is
a bigger, say, a quarterback who's less error prone. Yeah, now,
(15:38):
Chador is an accurate quarterback, but dtr was a run
around guy. Didn't work. Johnny Manziel, Well that wasn't Sefanski.
But so Watson just hasn't worked. Which of Gabriel or
Shador has the edge in that department?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I think both of them to an extent, you know,
I think the Browns want to get back to that
Stefanski offense, which is run the ball, throw off, play action,
throw the deep crosser, which Joe Flacco does really well.
Jerry Judy had his breakout year. You know there is
a guy there. They have David Njoku for at least
one more year. There's a guy you can feed underneath
and kind of find yourself. I think if you look
at what Shadoor's strengths are and why people thought he
(16:12):
would go in the first round, it fits what Stefanski
wants right now. He's not Joe Flacco, he doesn't have
the arm he was in kindergarten when Joe Flacco was drafted.
All of these things. But I think an advantage for
the Browns and trying to get out of this mess
is when they are on that field starting three or
four weeks from now, it will be this tofans, he
preferred offense. It will be tailored to all four of
(16:34):
their strengths to an extent, and they will have a
chance to learn that it won't be changing things drastically
like they did multiple times over when Watson was here.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I know that you mentioned Gabriel's like five eleven and
he's from Hawaii, and it just feels weird. But the
fact that Stefanski and company would take him in the
third and not. Shador tells me that maybe this was
the owners stepping in saying, hey man, it's the fifth round.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Can we get Shador?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Do you think has them at any say or input
in this.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
I think it's possible. And I think the one thing
you can say right now with a level of confidence
is it clearly wasn't the plan. If they were taking
Shadoor at one forty four or anytime on Saturday, then
why would they be taking another quarterback in the third round?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Right?
Speaker 3 (17:14):
And the thing that's really bizarre is no quarterbacks went
fifty picks from Gabriel to Shadoor Sanders and no other
quarterback went. So I think that's mine And most people's
point of contention is like, Okay, you guys believe in
Dylan Gabriel. That's fine. It's your team, it's your job,
it's stake here, right, But like, he wasn't going to
get picked, and this is a team that has so
many needs and did not draft an offensive lineman, did
(17:34):
not draft a wide receiver. They say, it's the board,
it's the board, it's the board. You cannot tell me
that Dylan Gabriel was the number one player on the
board there at that time. And then you also can't
tell me that Shadoor Sanders was the number one player
on the board later on Saturday afternoon because you wouldn't
have been looking at the board. You already had your
quarterback of this draft. So so yeah, something happened to
make that because it wasn't just picking him. They traded
(17:56):
a pick and moved up twenty two spots. That was
their last pick of the draft, so Shador became the
seventh member of this draft class.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
I'm curious where are we with Deshaun Watson and what
has it been like to cover him, because my gosh,
you know, this guy was a superstar at Clemson. He
was really freaking good with Houston and then it kind
of all fell apart and he just has I mean,
I don't want to say he was like on the
track to be an elite quarterback, but he was definitely
a top seven quarterback in the league when he was
(18:23):
with Houston.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
For fun, he was right, he was, and that's why
the Browns made the move they made and made the
outrageous commitment that they made. So I don't believe he
was ever going to play a snap for the Browns again.
Even before this second achilles, it just failed. It just
was awful. And I know it's the injuries that ended
the two seasons, right, And then the second one came along,
you know, six or eight weeks after he'd been injured
(18:45):
on the field and everybody saw it. But it just
hasn't worked. He didn't process, He never fit the offense.
They fired the offensive staff last year, tried to get
new people in. It just never worked. In training camp
last year was so bad. He was so bad every
single day. And it was like this team of great expectations, right,
they had won eleven and been in the playoffs the
year before. Everybody had a contract extension, everybody was back,
(19:08):
and then they came out in the first game and
they couldn't get a first down against Dallas. He turned
out to be no good either, right, right, and it
just sputtered along from there. They were setting records for
offensive futility. They didn't get to twenty points for three
hundred yards in a game in any game that Watson started.
And then he got hurt in mid October, and then
when Jamis came in, it instantly looked like a real
NFL offense. It just never looked like that before. So
(19:31):
he's under contract for two more seasons and the Browns
have one hundred and seventy million in salary cap commitments
to him. So two years ago the Broncos cut Russell
Wilson with an eighty five million dollar dead cap hit record,
the Browns oo Watson double that, So about thirty seven
will come off of that, and his current cap number
for twenty twenty six is eighty million dollars.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
And then that is your best guess that he just
won't play, he'll be injured, and then they'll cut him
at the end of the season.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, so he'll on one of the injured lists. I
don't know if it'll be IR or NFI this year,
right And then after that they'll have to decide because
every dollar is guaranteed and spoken for, so they'll have
to decide are they going to formally cut him and
accelerate the hits or how they're going to do that.
But you know, right now, they're at only around if
you count the draft class being signed in the next
(20:20):
week or so, they're only at a round six or
eight million dollars. Like this is why they didn't do
much in free agency. This is why they had to
go to the Kenny Pickett and Joe black O route.
They just don't have the money because it's not just
Watson's contract. They took several other guys and a lot
of them good players, don't, don't get me wrong, and
accelerated all of that money forward to be good last
year when they went three and fourteen and this year
when they're kind of stuck in between a rebuild and
(20:42):
you know, trying to make the most out of the
end of Joel Buttonio's career, Miles Garrett turning thirty. Nick
Chubb's not coming back, right, So it's a team in transition,
and it's a team that has the lowest over under
in the league. So we'll see what happens. But the
Watson commitments are going nowhere. Fox Sports Radio has the
best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of
(21:02):
our shows at foxsports Radio dot com and within the
iHeartRadio app search FSR to listen live.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Which also makes the Miles Garrett contract nutty because I
don't know if memory serves. At the press conference dra afterward,
Miles Garrett intimated a I know what the game plan
is at quarterback. Well, I'll be honest, there's no way
on earth it was Getty pick at Joe Flacco' Dylan
Gabriel and should do her. Like, what do you make
of the Miles Garrett move.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
I understand why they didn't trade him, and I think
it's probably personal. Nobody wanted to be the GM that
traded for to Shaun Watson and traded away Miles Garrett.
But yeah, I said, you know, the first thing I
wrote at the end of the season was the offensive
coordinator change. But as soon as we got home from
that game, and as soon as we started processing the offseason,
the first thing I said is they have to trade
Miles Garrett. Like they have to move on here. They
(21:50):
have to be honest about it. Miles had started, you know,
in December hinting towards I might ask for a trade.
I don't like the state of things, and then the
week of the Super Bowl in early February, he came
out with public statement, followed that up with a fully
coordinated media tour telling how bad the roster was, telling
how bad things are, why he needed a new start,
and then the day before free agency started, he had
(22:11):
his new contract, so it changed quickly. So, like I said,
I understand why you don't want to get rid of
that player. And that player certainly can help you win
games because he affects the quarterback and the play caller
on the offensive line on every single play. But this
is a team that's two years away. And you know,
right now, we like the defensive tackle they got, right,
(22:32):
we like the new starting running back, but there's a
whole lot of pieces that are still missing to think
that this is a team truly on its way to
doing something.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I mean hypothetical, and I'm sure people will laugh when
they hear this, but because no NFL team will admit
to doing this, is there a whirl where the brown said, Man,
there's no path for us to getting back to the
playoffs in twenty twenty five. Let's kind of sort of
get our ducks in a row, cut watching or set
up to cut him whatever. But we're playing for twenty
(23:01):
twenty six, and if we get the number one pick, wonderful,
we get our real quarterback, not the third or fifth rounder. Again,
I know it's tough to like say that because nobody
does it in the NFL, But is there a world
where that could be the game plan. Stefanski feeling confident
that they would even retain him if they win four
games in twenty five.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, I don't think that thought's wild at all. I
think executing it is difficult, right. I think that's one
of the layers of why I sit here and say
I have no idea who's going to be starting in September,
because you can't outwardly tank. But now, last year, the
last three games they said we're not winning anymore. They
went to dtr they played Bailey Zappy right at the end,
and some of that as Jamis had worn out as
(23:40):
welcome by just continually throwing the ball to the other team,
and Stefanski was tired of it. But that's the situation
they were in. So you know, Joe Flacco's forty, right,
can you Pikett mid twenties only under contract for one year?
We kind of know what he is. They obviously like
something about him to have traded a fifth round pick.
But yeah, I think I'm interested to see this schedule
in two weeks because I think there's a certain date Thanksgiving,
(24:03):
whatever other holiday you want to throw in that you
have to believe that one of the rookies is going
to be playing, and that the emphasis is going to
be on moving forward. They have some guys because of
cap commitments that there's no way they could trade right now,
but they get in the season that trade deadline beckins.
You know last year they shipped off of Marii Cooper,
they shipped off Sadaria Smith. I think that's absolutely a
(24:24):
reasonable outcome here. Again, there's pretty good pieces on defense,
and in Miles Garrett and Denzel war those are really
good pieces. Like arguably is good a one to two
started defense as anybody has. But it's not a deep
roster for the loss of draft picks, for the money spent,
and it's an older roster and you know three of
the four best offensive linemen are only signed through this year.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, not great. I mean again, owners will promise everything
to coaches. I'll never forget. You know, all these coaches
come through FS one and Eric Mangini kept I keep
asking them about Jet stuffcause I'm a Jets fan, and
he was like, I'll never forget. Like the owners like
we got to bring Brett Fvarvin here and I was like,
I don't really want Farv And the owner's like it's fine,
don't worry. If it doesn't work out, We'll just you'll
be the coach again next year. And of course what happened.
(25:08):
It failed and they fired him, and he's like, you
told me i'd be back, And so I don't know
that I trust these owners. Stefanski does have a lot
of credibility built up with Coach of the Year, But
I look around the league. I can't find another quarterback
controversy heading into the training camp other than the Browns
and maybe the Colts. Is there another one that I'm missing?
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, well, we don't know what's going to happen in Pittsburgh.
We assume it's Aaron Rodgers. Assume yeah, yeah, yeah, So yeah,
that's pretty bleak. When man Gini was the coach here,
they started one and eleven, and I think that's in
play for this team. I really do look at what
division that they're in and look at some of their
offensive deficiencies, right, Like, I trust in Stefanski, and I
(25:50):
think that Miles and Denzel are good enough. Like if
this ends up being a sixteen, six win season and
one of the rookie quarterback plays, well, that's super successful.
And that's in the realm of possibility. But looking across here,
there are talent deficiencies and there are big things they
have to tackle. I mean, going three and fourteen wasn't
by accident, it really was.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Now.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
The offense was so bad early in the year that
I think the defense, you know, couldn't play to its potential,
and they just they didn't perform at the end of
some games that could have changed the outlook on things.
But when you stack them up right now, and there's
always surprises, right like, this is a team that's certainly
in the bottom quadront we.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Can wrap up. I'm curious your thoughts on the Travis
Hunter trade. They did get an extra twenty twenty six. First,
it is from Joe Jacksonville, which could be good or bad.
We never know what Jacksonville. But what would you think
passing on a generational talent at receiver to pick up
an extra number one and some extra and move up
in second round and stuff.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I think that was always part of the plan. I
don't think they believed that something could materialize, right. It
was just so many, so few teams that really they
thought would do that. But they started really talking up
Travis Hunter in late and that's not their style. So
I kind of my antennae was up. Mason Graham is
just a really sound, sensible pick that fits this division
and fits what this team needs. And if you pair
(27:11):
Mason Graham with a future one, it's like, Okay, we're
onto something. And that made the quarterback moves even more
baffling later, like, if you're out of the quarterback business
in this draft at least until Saturday, then you're out right.
So yeah, I don't hate it. Obviously, there's risk if
Travis Hunter becomes the generational player that some believe he can.
I don't know that the Browns were ready to take
a wide receiver at number two. To raise a wide
receiver the right way. They might have been a year
(27:32):
away from that. So I think Mason Graham is going
to be at least a good player, maybe a really
good one. And I think for the future of the Browns,
the two first round picks next year are going to
be part of it. And if you want to tell
me that those picks are both like in the early
teams because the Browns are better than they expect and
have a decent year, I'll buy it. And if you
want to tell me that the Browns are going to
have two top ten picks. Then I could buy that
(27:54):
thought too, because when you're this bad at quarterback and
right now they're damn near a zero out of ten
at quarterback, how can you expect to win football games? Oh? One?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
More so, have you noticed fans either pro Shad or
pick against it? Confused? Like we've talked about the Dylan
Gabriel and five quarterbacks? And are you seeing more interest
from people because of how the draft went down?
Speaker 3 (28:18):
It's too early to say that people are interested in
the Browns. And I can tell you that being back
in the top five after three years of no first
round pick was good for business. It was good for
interest level. I think people are excited about Shador and
I think for two reasons. One, I think there was
a contingent that always believed or wanted them to take
him in the first round. Right he's a known commodity
in early mocks had that being a possibility. It wasn't
(28:39):
until the combine that it became clear that he wasn't
going to go in the top tight. And secondly, I
think people look at it and say he's in the
fifth round. Whatever happened happened, but this team took him
and now he's why couldn't he beat out these guys? Right?
And I think that's a fair question to ask. Yeah,
it's just one on a long list of questions that
we're all asking right now. So, like I said, I
(28:59):
don't think we see the full team on the field
till like May twenty eighth or so. I'm anxious to
see that. I'm anxious to see how Shaudor handles everything.
I'm anxious to see, you know, what kind of opportunities
he really gets. And then when they get to training camp.
You know, last year, everything Asa mentioned was so settled.
Every guy had his contract, Everything was about Watson's going
to be good, even though that was went against what
(29:20):
we saw with our own eyes every single day. Whereas
this year, there's going to be a hunger and that
starts with the open competition and really across the roster
a bunch of young guys who are playing for jobs
because this is an older team and has been an
older team, so there's some vacancies. So, like I said,
I if Shador doesn't make it, I'll be shocked. I'll
only be mildly surprised if he plays his way into
(29:41):
the plants here over the next you know, four to.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Six, so over under three and a half starts for Shador.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Well that's a good line. That is a good line.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I mean initially I said one and a half, but
I had to bump it out because everybody's in a door.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Well, I think if you're really offering that line, Jason,
whether we're betting a dime or just you know, having
fun with it, you got to think about the Browns history.
Four quarterbacks play every single year, so.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I got about the futility there, so you would probably
lean to the over.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
I would probably I would have to consider it. Yeah,
I think that's a really good line. I'm going to
put that on my group message here as well.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
It depends about how the schedule shakes out, too, Like
if it's super soft early and Flacco or Picket gets hot,
then you know, probably Sho ain't playing until like you know,
they're tanking.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
And and it's or Flacco and Picket go down to
the wire and they keep them both, or does one
emerge from the other and somebody's backup gets hurt and
they make a trade and just go with the two rookies, right,
Because that's a totally different, you know, conversation.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I didn't like.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I said, they both have super easy trade numbers in
the cap situation. It's not like they're behind the cap,
but the cap situation is such that every couple million
count here as they go about their business over these
next few months.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
It's interesting because wasn't there I kind of swore there
was a trade. Oh oh it was Kirk Cousins when
he went down with Minnesota. Didn't they swing a trade
for somebody to try to stay relevant?
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yes? They did. It was Josh Dobbs who had Cleveland
had traded earlier this summer.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Fuck. Yeah, so that is I never thought of that
until you said, so Cleveland is positioned well like Kenny
Pickett and Joe Flacco. Hey, trade bait. Somebody goes down,
you want to stay relevant, keep your job, come get him.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Yeah, And like people know what Flacco is, right, and
he's not for everybody, and he's forty, but if he
shows he can play a little bit, and then he's available,
like you know, they could. They could make that move
and you're not gonna get much for him, but certainly
it's in play because when that fourth guy was added,
to the quarterback room, and it wasn't just some cast
off for some undrafted rookie. Now it's like, okay, we
really don't know how this is going to go. Kenny
(31:39):
Pickett has said on the record twice I was promised
the chance to compete for a job, not that he
would be given it, not that he would win it.
But he said the first thing the Brown said when
they called him that day is we're glad to have
you here, and you're gonna get every chance to compete
for the job.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
That's very vague, a little more certainty than that. A
right zack Jack to the athletic Great stuff, Man, keep
up the good work. It's gonna be an awesome season
for you. I'm sure probably gonna gain followers across the
board on podcasts every week.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
What does you what.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Is your door inactive? Did you see the d on tweet?
I mean, man, there's it's gonna be. It's gonna be
a big one for you.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
Good. Luckily, when I was when I was at Fox,
they sent me to Cincinnati to cover a t bow
preseason game, all right, And I remember it and this
was what twelve thirteen years ago, and I remember, you know,
He didn't play until the third quarter, but there was
an NFL Network crew that followed him on the sideline
the whole and that that's something that's always stuck with me.
I remember watching that from the press box, and as
I was driving home Saturday, I was thinking, that's what
(32:33):
this is gonna be the Browns preseason openers in Carolina,
and it's either gonna be on ESPN or it's gonna
be on NFL Network, and he's going to have his
own camera crew following him as he stands on the
sideline and waste.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
I wonder how Stafanski and company are going to view that,
because nobody wants that nonsense.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Didn't you think that was part of why he slipped, Yeah,
you don't want to quarterback with the camera crew.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
I think the owner probably had some sale and let's
bring him in. You know, that could be good for business.
Jerry Jones, I'm surprised he didn't take a flyer on him.
Jerry Jones loves this kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
He lives for it, and so he lives for it.
The Browns just stumble into it. That's stumble into it.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yes, of course, all right, man, good stuff. Yeah, I
talk to you soon thanks Jason,
This is straight Fire with Jason McIntyre.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
What is up fire, fam, It's me Jason McIntyre. Straight
Fire for Wednesday, April thirtieth, final day of the month
is here, and oh my gosh, do we have a
couple of big, big, big, huge NBA games tonight? Minnesota
tries to knock the Lakers out up three to one
(00:33):
games out here in LA. A lot of Lakers fans
think it's over. I am on records saying it's not over. Obviously,
that's a big one tonight, as well as Golden State
at Houston Warriors trying to knock out the Rockets. Two
of those series if has been phenomenal. The NBA action
last night was hella good. However, I do need to
remind you we'll only do a few minutes NBA here
(00:54):
and then we will go into a great guest. Zach
Jackson covers the Cleveland Browns has covered him for a
few years. Yes, he knows the man'sal era. Okay, the
Schador era could be similar. Not from a bad perspective,
just chaos. Okay, you're gonna love this interview. I know
we're making a lot on the Cleveland Browns, and I
tell Zach this, but you know, we can look at
the numbers of the podcast and guys, the downloads for
(01:14):
some of the Schadur podcasts are through the roof, like
massive numbers. It's like, WHOA, what is this all about?
People are into the Shadoor standers story. So we'll talk
about it one more day and then after that we
will we'll pivot back to NBA. Obviously. Tomorrow is a
huge NBA podcast with the Lakers and Wolves and Warriors
and Rockets in action before we get to Zach real quick.
(01:36):
Four games. Last night, Celtics knock out the Magic That
was no big deal. Jason Tatum cooked whatever, my Knicks
up three to one, lose to the Pistons, and the
Knicks just never felt totally locked in defensively. The effort
was not there. They fouled so much. The Pistons shot
thirty six free throws. The Knick shot fifty nine percent
(01:58):
from the line. They did do the hack of Mitchell Robinson,
and Robinson was a factor plus nine when he was
on the floor eleven boards, a couple of blocks, but
they fouled him, put him on the line and he
can't shoot free throws. Three to seven However, Brunson missed
some free throws, Brunson turned an ankle eight. Brunson was
four of sixteen. Cat didn't shoot well. The Knicks came
into this game and from the jump they look like,
oh we got this. Were up three one and Detroit
(02:20):
led by Cad Cunningham Onsar Thompson at his best game
of the series despite missing a ton of free throws,
and listen, Dennis Shuter makes some timely shots and Pistons advance.
They go back to Detroit. You know it's gonna be
a juiced up crowd. I don't ever want to push
things to a game seven. You never know what conda happen.
Nicks lacked the knockout punch. It just didn't have it
(02:40):
and lose, and now they got to go to Detroit
for another game. Oh by the way, Celtics will be
waiting in the wings for at least five days of
extra rest while the Knicks are getting just in a
heavyweight knockout battle with the Pistons. Now I do have
a stronger take on Piston on sorry not Pistons, Pacers.
What nineteen bucks one eighteen. First of all, the game
(03:02):
was crazy, okay, Milwaukee largely led for most of the game.
Indiana just like my knicks came out sleepy Bucks jump
all over them. Gary Trent Junior has basically the game
of his career. He's just splashing threes left and right.
Hit eight threes. Okay, Giannas had a great game. Thirty
how about this from your honest thirty twenty and thirteen,
(03:23):
thirty twenty and thirteen miss six free throws, had seven turnovers. Nevertheless,
thirty twenty and thirteen. You do that, you're usually gonna win.
There was a brutal turnover late. Doc Rivers up seven
with thirty nine seconds left in overtime, and they gagged away.
Halliburton cooks Jannis on a layup with one second left.
Haliburton is so good, you guys could doubt them all
you want. He had twenty six and nine. I like
(03:46):
this Pacers team. Okay. Now, my old neighbor back in
pa is a huge Pacers fan from Indiana. Went to
college in Indiana, and he texted me random. He's like,
we just don't look that good. I'm like to settle down, man. Okay,
they were up three to one. I totally understand that
they didn't look good. Siakam didn't really have it. Miles
Turner showed, well, I just I like Halliburton as to
(04:09):
I think they pushed the pacers. That being said, what
was interesting was at the end of the game, and
I really don't like this, Tyrese Halliburton's dad comes out
on the floor waving a towel. Everybody's celebrating the end
of the series. Halliburton's dad kind of stands like five
feet away from Yannis and is saying stuff, and I'm like,
what are you doing. It's like, listen, man, we all
(04:30):
have dads who really are our champion and are gonna
do some stuff that are gonna embarrass us. Tyrese Haliburton
admitted he was mortified after this. So not only did
Halliburton's father say stuff to Yannis, but then Yannis eventually
he was like, all right, I'm not gonna take this
crap any more from this random fan. What the hell
is he doing on the court, And Yannis gets in
(04:51):
his face and they're face to face, exchanging words, and
Yannis is towering over this guy, and I'm just like, gosh,
that is so embarrassing. It stole the moment from Haliburt.
He just beat Yannis one on one from the three
point line takes it in for the layup. It was
Haliburton's standing on the scorer's table celebrating with the crowd.
There's an awesome photo I posted on ig It's just
(05:12):
a great moment for Haliburn, and his freaking dad makes
it about him getting in Yannis's face talking trash, like
what are you doing? Just so embarrassing. I just I
hated that he stole his son's thunder and then he
got in a player's face, like, don't do that. Who
does that? Douchey Ja Morant's dad talking trash to players
(05:34):
courts like that's not cool.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Gosh.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Now listen our parents, you know mom's dads. They obviously
like us a lot, and they're gonna defend us. And
you know, moms are gonna go online and don't say
that about my son and all that. So that's I
think that's normal. Obviously, you don't want them to do that.
You don't need to. We're all big boys, we could
take it. And I just thought Haliburton's dad really bricked there.
Did not like that at all. Also, paper Clips had
(05:58):
been up to one in the series. Good everybody's picking him.
They get drubbed in Denver and Jamal Murray starting to
look like, oh it's crunch time. I better show up
Jamal Murray. He went off, could not be stop. Russell
Westbrook had a great game, and uh, you know, James
Harden's on the side of a milk carton. But I'm
not going to take the opportunity to take a shot
at him now. But Harden with a massive no show,
(06:20):
and you know that's going to be a storyline today
once everybody gets through Halliburden and the other stuff. All Right,
without further ado, let's get to our guest, Zach Jackson
of the Athletic.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
the nation. Catch all of our shows at foxsports Radio
dot com and within the iHeartRadio app. Search FSR to
listen live. You know a guy, Jason likes to think
he knows everything when it comes to sports.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I know what sports fans want, but for everything he
doesn't he knows the guy who does. Let's just say
I know a guy who knows the guy who knows
another guy.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
All right, let's come a new guest to straight fire.
I don't believe he's appeared on the pod, but boy,
he's gonna be everywhere for the next six months to
a couple of years thanks to Shador Sanders landing in Cleveland.
Zach Jackson from The Athletic Zach, how you.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Doing, man, I'm good. It's been a wild three days, right,
So whether it's three months or three years or longer,
you know, we'll see how it goes.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, did you have to inform friends and family?
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Man, I'm gonna have to lock the iPad around you
guys from now on, Like, hey, I don't need anybody
call it up at any players. I mean this it
is wild times in Cleveland.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, so the pick gets made Saturday afternoon. There was
actually a press conference going on in the media room
for the second day picks right, and then it flashes
trade and then it's becomes obvious that it's him, So
just madness breaks out. I'm texting my editor or whatever.
Finally it settles down about ten minutes later. Jason, I
have ninety five text messages. Some of them work, but
one of them was from my fourteen year old son,
Can I get a Shador jersey? And I thought, well,
(07:58):
explains a lot. So still this morning, responding to those
getting him into him and.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Juley Kell, that's funny. I have a fourteen year old
son as well. He's not a Shadoor guy. I don't
even think he's like up on Chador going to the Browns.
But I will just say like it's been a whirlwind,
like I mean, from Kenny Pickett to Joe Flacco to
Dylan Gabriel. I need you to help us wrap our
minds around the situation. And again, I don't want to
make this with Shadoor Sanders podcast every day, but as
(08:25):
you can imagine, Zach, we've done some Chador podcasts and
the numbers have been kind of bananas. So we got
to hit give the people what they want, right to
talk me through the Browns offseason. So Watson has the Achilles,
then he reruptures in at that point is like, all right,
he's probably not playing next season. So then they swing
a trade for Kenny Pickett, and I'm just curious your
thoughts when that happened.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yeah, so that would be the first of four surprising moves, right,
all four of them to some extent. The very first
day of free agency about five hours and they make
the trade for Kenny Pickett, and it's like it makes sense.
You know, Dorny Thompson Robinson was a nice kid. He
was here for two years. He was the there's a
stat that confirms he was maybe the worst player to
ever start an NFL game, right, So they move him.
(09:06):
They get Kenny Pickett. He's played in the division. They
know what he can be, which is probably a backup.
So they're moving along. They're obviously taking a quarterback. So
the draft process starts to unfold and you come home
from the combine and the realization is that cam Ward
is going number one, and the price to get up
there is just too much. Then the Browns can do
because of the Watson t They just there's no way
they can make that trade. Right. So then Joe Flacco
(09:29):
became a surprise. And obviously Flacco has the connection here
and they know him. It makes sense now Jason that
it's settled, But at the time, to me, it was
a surprise because it's like they already have a backup
whose ceiling is bad starter in Kenny Pickett. And people
here love Joe Flacco, but he's forty years old. He
can't move right, right, Like the Browns got the best
of Joe Flacco two seasons ago. Let's just be honest.
(09:51):
So then it's like, okay, well this totally makes sense
because you know what you're getting in Joe. You know,
he's going to get into guy's asses in training camp,
he's going to command the offense. And then they're going
to bring someone else along, right, And they make the
trade to get out of Travis Hunter to add the
second first round pick, and it's like, all right, they're
playing for next year. They're going to punt on quarterback
and they get they make four selections in the first
(10:12):
sixty seven picks, no quarterback, and then at eighty or
ninety four Dylan Gabriel, who's never going to be a
starting quarterback.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You know who? Well, hold on, hold on, what do
you mean you don't think in the NFL or with
the Browns?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
He is five eleven in cleats. He's not going to
be a starting quarterback. He's just he's just not going
to be, So why take him?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Then? What do you think that was about?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
That was about? I mean, they they went through the process,
they did, they did their work, and they are they
are free to prove me wrong on that, right. But
he's just too small. This is THEFC North, this is Cleveland.
They're playing outside for at least four more seasons, right
like this is this is not going to work with
Dylan Gabriel. I think their analytic ch charting project took
them to Dylan Gabriel. I think that they you know,
(10:51):
he has arm, he played six years in college yards
a lot, but he's a backup. He just his So
now it's like, okay, we're going to Saturday. They've made
this stunning pick. They've made some interesting picks before. They've
made moves that were a little bit predictable but not
really not right off ball linebacker at thirty three, trading
out of the second pick, and then should or Sandy
they trade up twenty two spots and they take shud
(11:12):
or Sanders after everybody including them had passed on should
or Sanders multiple times. Right, and so, whatever the reason reasons,
now they're in. So now you have an extra crowded room.
You have two rookie quarterbacks who have to compete for snaps,
who when they do play Jason are gonna be playing
with third stringers and XFL guys out there right in
the summer. And you got to get a read on things.
(11:33):
So I don't know how it's gonna go. I know
Shador adds spice and adds somewhat of a ceiling to
the thing. I know, as a fifth round pick, he's
probably guaranteed almost nothing other than this summer. Right, So
of the four, when you think about it, the one
they have the biggest commitment to big picture is Dylan
Gabriel because that's a top one hundred pick. You know,
(11:53):
they gave Flaco four million in guarantees. Can You Pickett's
cap numbers a little less than three million. He's only
under contract for one year, So this thing is wide open.
I would say it's eighty percent right that the rookies
don't start that either. Can You Pickett or Joe Flacco
is going to be the starter on September tenth, But
beyond that, it's wide open. And how we get from
now in April to September. I don't exactly know how
(12:15):
that's going to go either.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, all right, let me rewind to twenty fourteen, a
heady time in Cleveland, and they ended up selecting a
certain Johnny Manzel at pick twenty two. This was a
Texas kid who obviously flashed. It was exciting as hell
at A and M. But again, a smaller quarterback. He
I'm looking it up. I don't think he started at all.
(12:36):
There was a Bengals gaming through eighteen passes that might
have been as a backup. But then in twenty fifteen
he kind of sort of got the chance to start
some games. Obviously not an NFL quarterback, and was out
of the league shortly thereafter. I'm just curious, is there
a celebrity angle that a Manzel was a celebrity quarterback.
They loved him. That's what Shador Sanders is.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I think a little bit, But I think they're completely different.
For one, they took Johnny in the first round, so
there was a big commitment there, and I would say
for two through six, Johnny didn't fail because he was
too small. Johnny had a blatant disregard for doing any
work he just did. I mean from day one, Jason,
he did not want to do the things required. And
when he did start that game against the Bengals, he
came off after a couple drives and Brian Horr sat
(13:16):
next to him and he looked at Hoyer and said,
you didn't tell me this shit was this hard, right,
and Hoyer was thinking, well, if if you'd pay attention
every now and again, right, if you'd wake up on time,
And I mean it was a disaster from our one.
The Johnny Manziel thinks. So Johnny had plenty of arms,
Johnny was mobile and made plays, and you saw that
a little bit. His life was just so disconnected from
(13:37):
football and it went so poorly in such a short
amount of time that the Browns had to move on.
So Johnny's regrets are there, and like I said, the
investment is completely different. That is a year they had
two first round picks. They used the second one on
Johnny Manzil. They also completely blew the first one and
justin Gilbert that year. Oh so yeah, So like I
get it. And then people want to say, well, he's
like Baker, Right, Baker came in. He wasn't for everybody
(13:59):
as the chip on his shoulder. That was the number
one pick, and the Browns to a large extent, we're
right about Baker Mayfield. You know, he's never going to
be the top tier guy. But Baker's had a good career.
Baker had a little bit of success in Cleveland and
then the Browns made this choice rather than extending Baker Mayfield.
And I don't think, I know, this was not way
we're talking about today. I don't think Baker would have
ever gotten to where he is now if he had
(14:20):
stayed in Cleveland. He needed to grow up right. And
so look whatever's out there about Shador. He gets a
blank slate. He starts next weekend with the Browns, and
he's going to be second in line in a rookie
mini camp. And he's going to be fourth in line
the very next day when when the veterans stuff starts
when they're allowed to join. So he's guaranteed nothing. And
if he's humbled by this process, and if he really
is his second round talent, then he will have a
(14:41):
chance to stick around. You know. My personal evaluation is
it in a couple of years, if Shador does right,
he's got a chance to play. He's accurate enough, he
has the feel all of these things we'll see, you know,
Can he ascend to that. Can the Browns put the
right pieces around him? How is it going to go
this summer? I don't know. I know, Kevin Stefanski, you
know it's gonna to run an open quarterback competition, and
that's different than what we've seen generally. The Browns do
(15:04):
not have very competitive training camps. So you know how
they're going to do this and how it's going to
be different than the last three years, which was just
awful training camps. Watching Watson throw five yard passes into
the ground all day long. We'll see how that goes.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, what does it say that Watson has not really
thrived at all even when healthy with Stefanski? Yet Joe
Flacco was able to put together a pretty memorable run
and get them to the playoffs. I know he vomited
all over himself in that Texas game, but still does
that mean that maybe a better option for Stefanski is
a bigger, say, a quarterback who's less error prone. Yeah, now,
(15:38):
Chador is an accurate quarterback, but dtr was a run
around guy. Didn't work. Johnny Manziel, Well that wasn't Sefanski.
But so Watson just hasn't worked. Which of Gabriel or
Shador has the edge in that department?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I think both of them to an extent, you know,
I think the Browns want to get back to that
Stefanski offense, which is run the ball, throw off, play action,
throw the deep crosser, which Joe Flacco does really well.
Jerry Judy had his breakout year. You know there is
a guy there. They have David Njoku for at least
one more year. There's a guy you can feed underneath
and kind of find yourself. I think if you look
at what Shadoor's strengths are and why people thought he
(16:12):
would go in the first round, it fits what Stefanski
wants right now. He's not Joe Flacco, he doesn't have
the arm he was in kindergarten when Joe Flacco was drafted.
All of these things. But I think an advantage for
the Browns and trying to get out of this mess
is when they are on that field starting three or
four weeks from now, it will be this tofans, he
preferred offense. It will be tailored to all four of
(16:34):
their strengths to an extent, and they will have a
chance to learn that it won't be changing things drastically
like they did multiple times over when Watson was here.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I know that you mentioned Gabriel's like five eleven and
he's from Hawaii, and it just feels weird. But the
fact that Stefanski and company would take him in the
third and not. Shador tells me that maybe this was
the owners stepping in saying, hey man, it's the fifth round.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Can we get Shador?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Do you think has them at any say or input
in this.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
I think it's possible. And I think the one thing
you can say right now with a level of confidence
is it clearly wasn't the plan. If they were taking
Shadoor at one forty four or anytime on Saturday, then
why would they be taking another quarterback in the third round?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Right?
Speaker 3 (17:14):
And the thing that's really bizarre is no quarterbacks went
fifty picks from Gabriel to Shadoor Sanders and no other
quarterback went. So I think that's mine And most people's
point of contention is like, Okay, you guys believe in
Dylan Gabriel. That's fine. It's your team, it's your job,
it's stake here, right, But like, he wasn't going to
get picked, and this is a team that has so
many needs and did not draft an offensive lineman, did
(17:34):
not draft a wide receiver. They say, it's the board,
it's the board, it's the board. You cannot tell me
that Dylan Gabriel was the number one player on the
board there at that time. And then you also can't
tell me that Shadoor Sanders was the number one player
on the board later on Saturday afternoon because you wouldn't
have been looking at the board. You already had your
quarterback of this draft. So so yeah, something happened to
make that because it wasn't just picking him. They traded
(17:56):
a pick and moved up twenty two spots. That was
their last pick of the draft, so Shador became the
seventh member of this draft class.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
I'm curious where are we with Deshaun Watson and what
has it been like to cover him, because my gosh,
you know, this guy was a superstar at Clemson. He
was really freaking good with Houston and then it kind
of all fell apart and he just has I mean,
I don't want to say he was like on the
track to be an elite quarterback, but he was definitely
a top seven quarterback in the league when he was
(18:23):
with Houston.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
For fun, he was right, he was, and that's why
the Browns made the move they made and made the
outrageous commitment that they made. So I don't believe he
was ever going to play a snap for the Browns again.
Even before this second achilles, it just failed. It just
was awful. And I know it's the injuries that ended
the two seasons, right, And then the second one came along,
you know, six or eight weeks after he'd been injured
(18:45):
on the field and everybody saw it. But it just
hasn't worked. He didn't process, He never fit the offense.
They fired the offensive staff last year, tried to get
new people in. It just never worked. In training camp
last year was so bad. He was so bad every
single day. And it was like this team of great expectations, right,
they had won eleven and been in the playoffs the
year before. Everybody had a contract extension, everybody was back,
(19:08):
and then they came out in the first game and
they couldn't get a first down against Dallas. He turned
out to be no good either, right, right, and it
just sputtered along from there. They were setting records for
offensive futility. They didn't get to twenty points for three
hundred yards in a game in any game that Watson started.
And then he got hurt in mid October, and then
when Jamis came in, it instantly looked like a real
NFL offense. It just never looked like that before. So
(19:31):
he's under contract for two more seasons and the Browns
have one hundred and seventy million in salary cap commitments
to him. So two years ago the Broncos cut Russell
Wilson with an eighty five million dollar dead cap hit record,
the Browns oo Watson double that, So about thirty seven
will come off of that, and his current cap number
for twenty twenty six is eighty million dollars.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
And then that is your best guess that he just
won't play, he'll be injured, and then they'll cut him
at the end of the season.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, so he'll on one of the injured lists. I
don't know if it'll be IR or NFI this year,
right And then after that they'll have to decide because
every dollar is guaranteed and spoken for, so they'll have
to decide are they going to formally cut him and
accelerate the hits or how they're going to do that.
But you know, right now, they're at only around if
you count the draft class being signed in the next
(20:20):
week or so, they're only at a round six or
eight million dollars. Like this is why they didn't do
much in free agency. This is why they had to
go to the Kenny Pickett and Joe black O route.
They just don't have the money because it's not just
Watson's contract. They took several other guys and a lot
of them good players, don't, don't get me wrong, and
accelerated all of that money forward to be good last
year when they went three and fourteen and this year
when they're kind of stuck in between a rebuild and
(20:42):
you know, trying to make the most out of the
end of Joel Buttonio's career, Miles Garrett turning thirty. Nick
Chubb's not coming back, right, So it's a team in transition,
and it's a team that has the lowest over under
in the league. So we'll see what happens. But the
Watson commitments are going nowhere. Fox Sports Radio has the
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(21:02):
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Speaker 2 (21:10):
Which also makes the Miles Garrett contract nutty because I
don't know if memory serves. At the press conference dra afterward,
Miles Garrett intimated a I know what the game plan
is at quarterback. Well, I'll be honest, there's no way
on earth it was Getty pick at Joe Flacco' Dylan
Gabriel and should do her. Like, what do you make
of the Miles Garrett move.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
I understand why they didn't trade him, and I think
it's probably personal. Nobody wanted to be the GM that
traded for to Shaun Watson and traded away Miles Garrett.
But yeah, I said, you know, the first thing I
wrote at the end of the season was the offensive
coordinator change. But as soon as we got home from
that game, and as soon as we started processing the offseason,
the first thing I said is they have to trade
Miles Garrett. Like they have to move on here. They
(21:50):
have to be honest about it. Miles had started, you know,
in December hinting towards I might ask for a trade.
I don't like the state of things, and then the
week of the Super Bowl in early February, he came
out with public statement, followed that up with a fully
coordinated media tour telling how bad the roster was, telling
how bad things are, why he needed a new start,
and then the day before free agency started, he had
(22:11):
his new contract, so it changed quickly. So, like I said,
I understand why you don't want to get rid of
that player. And that player certainly can help you win
games because he affects the quarterback and the play caller
on the offensive line on every single play. But this
is a team that's two years away. And you know,
right now, we like the defensive tackle they got, right,
(22:32):
we like the new starting running back, but there's a
whole lot of pieces that are still missing to think
that this is a team truly on its way to
doing something.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I mean hypothetical, and I'm sure people will laugh when
they hear this, but because no NFL team will admit
to doing this, is there a whirl where the brown said, Man,
there's no path for us to getting back to the
playoffs in twenty twenty five. Let's kind of sort of
get our ducks in a row, cut watching or set
up to cut him whatever. But we're playing for twenty
(23:01):
twenty six, and if we get the number one pick, wonderful,
we get our real quarterback, not the third or fifth rounder. Again,
I know it's tough to like say that because nobody
does it in the NFL, But is there a world
where that could be the game plan. Stefanski feeling confident
that they would even retain him if they win four
games in twenty five.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, I don't think that thought's wild at all. I
think executing it is difficult, right. I think that's one
of the layers of why I sit here and say
I have no idea who's going to be starting in September,
because you can't outwardly tank. But now, last year, the
last three games they said we're not winning anymore. They
went to dtr they played Bailey Zappy right at the end,
and some of that as Jamis had worn out as
(23:40):
welcome by just continually throwing the ball to the other team,
and Stefanski was tired of it. But that's the situation
they were in. So you know, Joe Flacco's forty, right,
can you Pikett mid twenties only under contract for one year?
We kind of know what he is. They obviously like
something about him to have traded a fifth round pick.
But yeah, I think I'm interested to see this schedule
in two weeks because I think there's a certain date Thanksgiving,
(24:03):
whatever other holiday you want to throw in that you
have to believe that one of the rookies is going
to be playing, and that the emphasis is going to
be on moving forward. They have some guys because of
cap commitments that there's no way they could trade right now,
but they get in the season that trade deadline beckins.
You know last year they shipped off of Marii Cooper,
they shipped off Sadaria Smith. I think that's absolutely a
(24:24):
reasonable outcome here. Again, there's pretty good pieces on defense,
and in Miles Garrett and Denzel war those are really
good pieces. Like arguably is good a one to two
started defense as anybody has. But it's not a deep
roster for the loss of draft picks, for the money spent,
and it's an older roster and you know three of
the four best offensive linemen are only signed through this year.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, not great. I mean again, owners will promise everything
to coaches. I'll never forget. You know, all these coaches
come through FS one and Eric Mangini kept I keep
asking them about Jet stuffcause I'm a Jets fan, and
he was like, I'll never forget. Like the owners like
we got to bring Brett Fvarvin here and I was like,
I don't really want Farv And the owner's like it's fine,
don't worry. If it doesn't work out, We'll just you'll
be the coach again next year. And of course what happened.
(25:08):
It failed and they fired him, and he's like, you
told me i'd be back, And so I don't know
that I trust these owners. Stefanski does have a lot
of credibility built up with Coach of the Year, But
I look around the league. I can't find another quarterback
controversy heading into the training camp other than the Browns
and maybe the Colts. Is there another one that I'm missing?
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, well, we don't know what's going to happen in Pittsburgh.
We assume it's Aaron Rodgers. Assume yeah, yeah, yeah, So yeah,
that's pretty bleak. When man Gini was the coach here,
they started one and eleven, and I think that's in
play for this team. I really do look at what
division that they're in and look at some of their
offensive deficiencies, right, Like, I trust in Stefanski, and I
(25:50):
think that Miles and Denzel are good enough. Like if
this ends up being a sixteen, six win season and
one of the rookie quarterback plays, well, that's super successful.
And that's in the realm of possibility. But looking across here,
there are talent deficiencies and there are big things they
have to tackle. I mean, going three and fourteen wasn't
by accident, it really was.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Now.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
The offense was so bad early in the year that
I think the defense, you know, couldn't play to its potential,
and they just they didn't perform at the end of
some games that could have changed the outlook on things.
But when you stack them up right now, and there's
always surprises, right like, this is a team that's certainly
in the bottom quadront we.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Can wrap up. I'm curious your thoughts on the Travis
Hunter trade. They did get an extra twenty twenty six. First,
it is from Joe Jacksonville, which could be good or bad.
We never know what Jacksonville. But what would you think
passing on a generational talent at receiver to pick up
an extra number one and some extra and move up
in second round and stuff.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I think that was always part of the plan. I
don't think they believed that something could materialize, right. It
was just so many, so few teams that really they
thought would do that. But they started really talking up
Travis Hunter in late and that's not their style. So
I kind of my antennae was up. Mason Graham is
just a really sound, sensible pick that fits this division
and fits what this team needs. And if you pair
(27:11):
Mason Graham with a future one, it's like, Okay, we're
onto something. And that made the quarterback moves even more
baffling later, like, if you're out of the quarterback business
in this draft at least until Saturday, then you're out right.
So yeah, I don't hate it. Obviously, there's risk if
Travis Hunter becomes the generational player that some believe he can.
I don't know that the Browns were ready to take
a wide receiver at number two. To raise a wide
receiver the right way. They might have been a year
(27:32):
away from that. So I think Mason Graham is going
to be at least a good player, maybe a really
good one. And I think for the future of the Browns,
the two first round picks next year are going to
be part of it. And if you want to tell
me that those picks are both like in the early
teams because the Browns are better than they expect and
have a decent year, I'll buy it. And if you
want to tell me that the Browns are going to
have two top ten picks. Then I could buy that
(27:54):
thought too, because when you're this bad at quarterback and
right now they're damn near a zero out of ten
at quarterback, how can you expect to win football games? Oh? One?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
More so, have you noticed fans either pro Shad or
pick against it? Confused? Like we've talked about the Dylan
Gabriel and five quarterbacks? And are you seeing more interest
from people because of how the draft went down?
Speaker 3 (28:18):
It's too early to say that people are interested in
the Browns. And I can tell you that being back
in the top five after three years of no first
round pick was good for business. It was good for
interest level. I think people are excited about Shador and
I think for two reasons. One, I think there was
a contingent that always believed or wanted them to take
him in the first round. Right he's a known commodity
in early mocks had that being a possibility. It wasn't
(28:39):
until the combine that it became clear that he wasn't
going to go in the top tight. And secondly, I
think people look at it and say he's in the
fifth round. Whatever happened happened, but this team took him
and now he's why couldn't he beat out these guys? Right?
And I think that's a fair question to ask. Yeah,
it's just one on a long list of questions that
we're all asking right now. So, like I said, I
(28:59):
don't think we see the full team on the field
till like May twenty eighth or so. I'm anxious to
see that. I'm anxious to see how Shaudor handles everything.
I'm anxious to see, you know, what kind of opportunities
he really gets. And then when they get to training camp.
You know, last year, everything Asa mentioned was so settled.
Every guy had his contract, Everything was about Watson's going
to be good, even though that was went against what
(29:20):
we saw with our own eyes every single day. Whereas
this year, there's going to be a hunger and that
starts with the open competition and really across the roster
a bunch of young guys who are playing for jobs
because this is an older team and has been an
older team, so there's some vacancies. So, like I said,
I if Shador doesn't make it, I'll be shocked. I'll
only be mildly surprised if he plays his way into
(29:41):
the plants here over the next you know, four to.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Six, so over under three and a half starts for Shador.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Well that's a good line. That is a good line.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I mean initially I said one and a half, but
I had to bump it out because everybody's in a door.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Well, I think if you're really offering that line, Jason,
whether we're betting a dime or just you know, having
fun with it, you got to think about the Browns history.
Four quarterbacks play every single year, so.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I got about the futility there, so you would probably
lean to the over.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
I would probably I would have to consider it. Yeah,
I think that's a really good line. I'm going to
put that on my group message here as well.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
It depends about how the schedule shakes out, too, Like
if it's super soft early and Flacco or Picket gets hot,
then you know, probably Sho ain't playing until like you know,
they're tanking.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
And and it's or Flacco and Picket go down to
the wire and they keep them both, or does one
emerge from the other and somebody's backup gets hurt and
they make a trade and just go with the two rookies, right,
Because that's a totally different, you know, conversation.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I didn't like.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I said, they both have super easy trade numbers in
the cap situation. It's not like they're behind the cap,
but the cap situation is such that every couple million
count here as they go about their business over these
next few months.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
It's interesting because wasn't there I kind of swore there
was a trade. Oh oh it was Kirk Cousins when
he went down with Minnesota. Didn't they swing a trade
for somebody to try to stay relevant?
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yes? They did. It was Josh Dobbs who had Cleveland
had traded earlier this summer.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Fuck. Yeah, so that is I never thought of that
until you said, so Cleveland is positioned well like Kenny
Pickett and Joe Flacco. Hey, trade bait. Somebody goes down,
you want to stay relevant, keep your job, come get him.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Yeah, And like people know what Flacco is, right, and
he's not for everybody, and he's forty, but if he
shows he can play a little bit, and then he's available,
like you know, they could. They could make that move
and you're not gonna get much for him, but certainly
it's in play because when that fourth guy was added,
to the quarterback room, and it wasn't just some cast
off for some undrafted rookie. Now it's like, okay, we
really don't know how this is going to go. Kenny
(31:39):
Pickett has said on the record twice I was promised
the chance to compete for a job, not that he
would be given it, not that he would win it.
But he said the first thing the Brown said when
they called him that day is we're glad to have
you here, and you're gonna get every chance to compete
for the job.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
That's very vague, a little more certainty than that. A
right zack Jack to the athletic Great stuff, Man, keep
up the good work. It's gonna be an awesome season
for you. I'm sure probably gonna gain followers across the
board on podcasts every week.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
What does you what.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Is your door inactive? Did you see the d on tweet?
I mean, man, there's it's gonna be. It's gonna be
a big one for you.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
Good. Luckily, when I was when I was at Fox,
they sent me to Cincinnati to cover a t bow
preseason game, all right, And I remember it and this
was what twelve thirteen years ago, and I remember, you know,
He didn't play until the third quarter, but there was
an NFL Network crew that followed him on the sideline
the whole and that that's something that's always stuck with me.
I remember watching that from the press box, and as
I was driving home Saturday, I was thinking, that's what
(32:33):
this is gonna be the Browns preseason openers in Carolina,
and it's either gonna be on ESPN or it's gonna
be on NFL Network, and he's going to have his
own camera crew following him as he stands on the
sideline and waste.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
I wonder how Stafanski and company are going to view that,
because nobody wants that nonsense.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Didn't you think that was part of why he slipped, Yeah,
you don't want to quarterback with the camera crew.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
I think the owner probably had some sale and let's
bring him in. You know, that could be good for business.
Jerry Jones, I'm surprised he didn't take a flyer on him.
Jerry Jones loves this kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
He lives for it, and so he lives for it.
The Browns just stumble into it. That's stumble into it.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yes, of course, all right, man, good stuff. Yeah, I
talk to you soon thanks Jason,
Fox Sports Radio News
Host
Jonas Knox
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