November 11, 2025 • 54 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci discuss the gambling issues that have found their way into Major League Baseball. Leagues try to keep gambling away from the teams and players while bringing it closer to the sport as a sponsor and advertiser. Tom notes how fans are not only upset about their team losing, but losing money changes the civility in sports. We move onto the Padres hiring a new manager without any previous experience. Joe explains how we've seen a culture shift in most things that used to value experience and wisdom. It's Awards Week and we debate who is the MVP. Plus, Joe comments on Kyle Hendricks announcing his retirement.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey thereon Welcome Back.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
It's the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci
and of course Joe Madden. Joe, it was bound to
happen and hit other sports, but we need to talk
about gambling in baseball. With the arrests of Cleveland pitchers
Louis Ortiz and Emmanuel Class, this is really interesting because
(00:39):
it seems like tip of the iceberg here and hopefully
that it's not. But first of all, Joe, I know
you've been in the dugout. It's been a point of
contention for clubs for years to inform players of the
dudes and the don'ts, mostly don'ts about gambling. What is
different now you think about the culture of gambling and
why it's a concern across all sports.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
It's ubiquitous. I mean, it's it's everywhere.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
Like I could just pick up my phone right here
if I chose to, and I could make a bet.
At least that there was a time you had to
work to make a bet a little bit. You had
to go to a local bar room, go to the
back room, go see Rocky, hang out, have a cheese
steak Holgi with maybe a glass of Yangling and you
make a bet. But nowadays you could just pick up
your phone. I don't, I honestly don't get it. I
(01:26):
really don't. I know everybody the government's stayed in local, federal,
they're all primarily stay local. They're trying to create revenue
through this, through having people gamble away money that they
can afford to do. I mean, there's certain people that
could afford to lose, and there's probably I don't even
know what the percentages that cannot afford to lose, and
(01:46):
it's heavy. So I've not against it. I've been against
it from the beginning. I can't believe that we advertise it.
It's like it's like when you watch the nightly news
at six thirty whatever. And I used to watch that
often and now I get my new sources elsewhere, but
we're always advertising illness. I mean, for that half hour
that are always about your ill and take this drug
(02:06):
because or because it's going to make you feel better,
or just they create a list of symptoms that you got,
oh that's me, and then eventually you got to go
to your doctor. You get this pill and all of
a sudden you know, you're taking stuff you really shouldn't
be taken. So we're advertising illness, we're advertising betting, we're
advertising so many things that are really not right.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I don't get it. And now what do you expect?
Was it this?
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Like talked about a lot as you're going to permit
betting and now we're talking about permitting a casino near
what city field in New York?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Right or they're trying or whatever.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Yeah, So but there's it's it's just makes zero sense.
Every spring training you have to read that big, long
piece of litigation regarding not gambling on baseball, not gambling
on baseball and sports in general, and it just goes
on deaf ears. I mean, there was a time I
think it could be a little bit more scary, but
(03:06):
in today's culture, nothing scarce. We've made everything too easy
to doomed. It's the downgrading of deviant behavior that's becoming
absolutely normalized. So blessed, I have expected it. It's gonna
keep getting worse. I don't get it. We're the grown
ups and it's all about money, and I don't I'm
not into it.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
That's all well said, and I completely agree with you,
Joe that we have become a society of convenience, and
that includes the abnormal that we're making more convenient.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Not only convenient, but addictive.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
We know that gambling is addictive, and with technology now
at your fingertips, you're talking about systems that are designed
to make gambling addictive. They will tail our bet props
to you based on your betting patterns. They will start
feeding you more money in your account to.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Keep you going.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
It's just crazy that this is all happening in it
in plain daylight, really, and people are getting too deep now.
I know a lot of the conversation Joe is about
how could someone like Emmanuel class And by the way,
the agents for both players have denied charges here, so
we'll see how it plays out in a court of law.
(04:19):
But Class A is a guy working under a twenty
million dollar contract. He also had an option for twenty
seven and twenty eight at another eighteen million dollars. And
we're talking about betting pattern here that was going on
for two years, two years in which he and these
associates cleared four hundred and fifty thousand dollars over two years.
(04:42):
So I know a lot of the reaction was why
is a guy. Now you know, making five six million
dollars a year dabbling in two thousand dollars prop bets.
The answer to the question is, and you touched on this, Joe,
it's too easy. Oh he thought it was anyway until
he got caught. It's these micro bets, these prop bets.
(05:04):
So it wasn't like these pitchers, according to the indictment,
we're saying I'm going to bet against my team to
win or lose. No, what they're doing is they're betting on, say,
the first pitch of an inning being below a certain
mile per hour or being a ball.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Or a strike.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
And I'm sure the player, the athlete, and this applies
to other sports as well as thinking I'm not shaving games,
I'm not shaving points, I'm not throwing games. This is
very harmless. And my buddies can earn a buck or
two here, even more than that. So Classe gets to
the mound and he's going to say, you know what,
the prop bet here is my first pitch is going
(05:44):
to be below ninety eight miles an hour. I'll just
throw a slider, or the prop bet is baller strike
first pitch.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I'll just throw a slider and make sure that I
bounce it.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
There was actually one circumstance where Andy Pie has the Dodgers,
was the pitcher the prop bet or the batter. The
prop bet was baller strike first pitch, so he intention
they throws a slider in the dirt and Pots swings
at it. So they lost that bet. But people need
to understand that these micro bets are a big part
of the problem. You can bet on virtually anything, and
(06:18):
in this case, they're thinking.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You know what, no one's going to know.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Well, you know what, given the algorithms today, Joe, that
that you know, these betting companies have, they will find
anomalous patterns. So when they see a ton of money on,
say the first pitch of a Cleveland game in the
in the eighth inning, they're like, what's going on here?
And you just kind of follow the data in terms
of betting patterns. So I'm glad baseball has come out
(06:44):
and with the cooperation of the betting companies, Joe, they
said basically, no more bets of more than two hundred
dollars on these pitch level bets, you know, plus or
minus the miles barrow or ball or strike that's a
start and I think as they found out and they
got in bed with these gambling companies, that there are
unintended consequence and they're just finding it out. So I
(07:05):
think the idea of capping those bets at two hundred,
to me, I think they shouldn't even be legal.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
You just get rid of a period.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
And I know the governor of Ohio has argued for that,
but at least this is a step forward.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Wow, so much right there? Where does it start?
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Guys that are making that much money feeling compelled to
do something like this? Is it a thrill component? Is
there a power involved? Are they, like you said, I
think you insinuated? Are they trying to take care of friends?
In other words, tell somebody, a family member, whatever, if
you bet here, you have a pretty good chance of
winning a lot of money based on what I'm going
to do.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Or not do.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
All this stuff is really brutal. It's disgusting. I don't
like any of it. To even think, Okay, now we're
going to rationalize this and put a cap on the
amount of money bet on me. That is ridiculous. It's
just so wrong on so many different levels. And to
think that, to think that you didn't think that all
this stuff was going to lead you down the wrong
(07:59):
path at some point is crazy. They had to have
had these conversations. They had to like almost like decide
how much are we going to be able to absorb
or want to absorb before we have to make changes
to all this. We just let it go until something
happens that will make the alterations. Honestly, I don't get it.
I I've said that from Jump Street. It makes zero
(08:20):
sense to me that all of a sudden, now you
go back to the Black Sox scandal and you go
to mister Rose and you do everything else that we've done.
Jack Molinas in basketball, what was at NYU back in
the day. He actually played basketball in Hazelton when I
was a kid for the Hazelton Hawks. I mean, all
these things have gone on fears, but now it's becoming easy.
(08:40):
And as it becomes easier to do these things. And
then at last point, you say, you know, talked about
the salary that they're making. But then again, who knows
how they've invested their money and who knows how much
that they needed a quick hit to make something good
or to make something good and not necessarily jump into
this big pile of money that's being invested, which would
become more obvious. There's so many different reasons and layers,
(09:02):
and it's kind of a novel waiting to be written
by Nelson demil Man. It's just not good. Stop You're
not going to stop it. I understand that. I mean,
and I'm just like I said, I look at players,
former players that now do commercials for this stuff. Wow,
I really, I don't even see why that's legal to permit,
(09:23):
even like athlete's even former athletes that are now somehow
involved in the sport. How are they even able or
capable or permit it to advertise for this stuff. Doesn't
that somehow make them accessories in some way in regards
to if this does go sideways, I don't get it.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I'm glad you brought that up, Joe.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
It bothers me as well, because to me, it's no
different than saying, signing an endorsement deal for cigarettes smoking cigarettes, right,
you are promoting something that's really not healthy for the
general public and in fact, can really destroy a lot
of people. There are some point, especially some of these
athletes who have made a lot of money, and I
know that's sort of besides, it's the point, but it
(10:04):
is part of the equation here. Do you really need
it to get in bed with something like that just
because someone comes to you with an offer and it's
easy money, and you film a couple of commercials and
you make a couple of appearances. Think about what you're
doing here and what you're promoting. Because I can tell
you this, Joe, I'm not sure if you've noticed this.
And I know a society in general has become less civil.
We know that, and partly that is just social media
(10:27):
and just the turn of venom and negativity. But I've
noticed around ballparks, and I can't speak to other sports.
I'm not in other stadiums and arenas, but in baseball,
the crowds have gotten nastier and you talk to players
and it totally is true. And I'm telling you that
gambling is a part of the equation. I'm not saying
it's the only thing, because again, people are able to
(10:49):
vent their frustrations and their anger and amplified on social media.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I get that.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
But now you go to a baseball game and you
legally have money riding on that game, that player, that performance,
and when it doesn't turn your way.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
You've lost money.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Now it's not just your favorite team lost the game,
but your heart earned dough has gotten down the tube.
And I've seen that in terms of just the anger
that people and I've heard players talk about this as
well too, directed at them, whether it's their fantasy team
or especially you know, placing a prop bet, whatever it
may be. There's a residual cost to this. It's not
(11:25):
just oh, you lost a couple of shekels. It's a
downgrading of our society and civilness.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
No doubt.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
You're describing there as winter ball as it used to
or used to exist anyway. I haven't been there in
a while, but that was a big part of the
culture there, gambling in the stands and a lot of
the booming that would ensue, like when when somebody lost
the bet because of a lack of performance or somebody
wont to bet because of performance.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
But you're talking about this.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
This cocktail that we've been brewing, and it's a combination.
You take social media where it is right now and
again the ease with which amateurs are controlling professionals in
so many different ways, and you combine that will legalize
legalized gambling. That's another thing. I legalize gambling. What's gambling?
(12:11):
Now we're going to say it's legal or illegal. So
when we start placing like different descriptive words in front
of different other words, it's like, really, you're going to
get in bed like legal gambling. So social media plus
legal gambling equals a recipe for disaster. That's the cocktail
I don't want to drink from. And yes, whether you're
a manager, a player, a coach, possibly whatever just involves
(12:35):
somehow when it goes sideways and it's not in your
favor and people start losing bets and money, especially when
they can't afford to Wow, it's just something really awful
is going to happen.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
It just it has to.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
And that's the sadness about how we react to things
here in our world, in our society, is that you
wait until it gets really really bad or something catastrophic occurs,
and then all of a sudden, everybody comes rushing to
the forefront and you got to start changing roles and
you start pointing things out. Every starts pointing fingers. Everybody
becomes like the reason why the culpable the part of
(13:09):
this movement here and and then it's so obvious. It's like, oh, really,
you didn't notice that happening, that that that wasn't going
to happen at some point. Well, I I I'd love
to see somehow the breaks put on this. I don't
see how it's going to be put on this, but
it's it's not good and it's just going to get worse.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Well, you're right about that, because this is going to
be a game of whack a mole. I mean, we're
not sure where the next controversy legal issue is.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Going to come up, but it's going to come.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
As you mentioned, your point is it's ubilulous, it's easy,
and as far as the temptations for people involved in
the competition, whether it's managers, umpires, referees, coaches, you name it,
information is the coin of the realm and they have
access to information. And I'm not sure what the next
scandal is going to be, but it's coming.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
It's going to keep coming.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And the other thing Joe I kind of worry about
is now that you're talking about now a generation growing
up without those sort of hurdles you mentioned when you
had to bet before it took effort.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
You have to do it on the sly.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
It's so easy now that people are indoctrinated now at
an easy age, and I would be concerned that that
is my entry gate for fandom, that people are getting
into these sports now just on the gambling component alone.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Not that you love the.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Sport or your favorite team or your favorite player, but
it's a way to, I guess, enjoy the concept of gambling,
that that is your entry into it. I would worry
about that if I were sports, that that is the
hook for people getting involved in my sport.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Hundred percent, you know, one hundred percent correct. I mean
I've been thinking about that also. Why you know, you
talk to everybody's talking about the uptick in you know,
the baseball interest this past year. Why i'd want to
believe that it was we saw a World Series and
I just you know, play golf, I go to the
I go to ava a restaurant, I hang out, and
which you think about that World Series?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
That was great. It was great, It was very entertaining,
it was good. It was good for baseball.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
And I think the part about that that hasn't been
spoken about it because it was one of the more
extemporaneous seven game series you've seen more recently, where.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
The plan blew up a lot.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
You know, the managers really had to manage, and I
think you saw real baseball being brought to the forefront
outside of the you know, the constant scream from the
bullpen to the mound, and the kind of like the
spring training method of playing World Series baseball. Other than that, though,
I mean, but part of that was the fact that
managers really had to be nimble during this series. And
(15:49):
then you talk about over usage, which god, I mean,
you got crucified for that several years ago, but now
it's just part of the landscape where guys are pitching
nearly every game, every day for the whole time they're
in the playoffs. So that, to me was the most
interesting part about the World Series was that it was
the next temporaneous World Series where it was kind of
old school, and I really enjoyed it for that, where
(16:10):
the planning was done before the game. You saw how
plans blew up, and then you saw how people had
to react, and I thought that was great. But back
to your original point, why is it becoming more popular?
There's no question gambling has led to the popularity, So
thus does that make it good color has made led
to the popularity uniforms and no longer uniforms. Listen, I
(16:30):
used to wear white shoes when I was a kid
playing high school football, even though everybody else is wearing black.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I get it.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
I did some screwy things. My hair was long at
a time when it was supposed to be short. But
to what extent do you permit all of this? So
uniform is no longer uniform Backflip's history. Onic celebration constant
celebration is part of it. I mean, what is the
lure here? Because the lure I don't know that is fundamental,
really clean, good baseball. Although, like I said, I think
part of why people enjoyed all of this World Series,
(16:58):
but there was a lot of that. There was a
lot of drama, man, and teams didn't quit, and both
sides kept fighting back.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
And you had one team that.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Actually played better baseball losing the World Series, whereas the
one with the veteran kind of a group that never
lost their pois or confidence took advantage of really some breaks,
but to their credit, they took advantage of them. So
there was a lot going on there. But I think
I'd be concerned, Like the House of cards. What is
really going on here? Where's the popularity base? Is it
(17:27):
rooted in baseball or is it rooted in other items?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
I'm going to be Pollyannis here and I want to
believe that it was the baseball because I've had more
people come up to me and say they began rooting
for the Toronto Blue Jays throughout the World Series. They're
not Blue Jays fans, but they love the way that
Toronto Blue Jays played baseball. There was something infectious about
the way Toronto played. Now they're going up against the
(17:54):
team with the big payroll. I get it that's part
of it too, people like the underdog. But I truly
believe it was because if you sat down to watch
these games and you're a casual fan, the Toronto Blue
Jays hooked you because they were putting the ball in play.
You weren't sitting there watching swing and miss after swing
and miss and pop up after pop up. You were
watching great defensive plays, interesting players in the base running.
(18:17):
Sometimes it wasn't very smart, but it was at least interesting.
But I think that Toronto Blue Jays were the best
thing that happened to baseball for a while, and as
Isaiah kind of Felefa told me, we're trying to change baseball.
In other words, they're trying to bring it back to
where it was twenty thirty years ago with the ball
and play. I want to believe Joe that maybe that's
a window for the way forward for this game that
(18:39):
I realized not every team is going to play that way.
I still go back to the fact now six straight
years the world champion has finished in the top four
in home runs, and you look at how the Dodgers
won the World Series, home runs had a lot to
do with it, if not more than any other element.
But I do believe I just from the feedback guy
got Joe that people enjoyed watching this World Series because
(19:03):
it was pacedway well and because of the way Toronto
played it.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah, pitchclock, no ghost runner.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
Like I said, I'd still like to see some of
these new rules pulled back, the three batter minimum, those
kind of things.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
They don't need them.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
With the pitchclock, which is the superstar of all alterations
made in almost any sport when it comes to rules
over the last several years, that's the superstar. That's where
the and you use the word pace. The fact that
happening happening, things are happening constantly. That is the superstar
of all changes, whether it's basketball, football, baseball, whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
So I love that part about it.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
But you said, and that's great, and I would want
I would hope that's the reason why people may be
reattracted to the game would be because God, they played
We saw a baseball game. They played baseball. They played baseball, well,
the whole game, the full game was on display right there,
and that is wonderful. Now, the thing is, and I'm
watching the Blue Jays and I'm watching what they may lose,
(20:02):
and you saw everything went right for than this year.
It's gonna be hard for them to repeat that next.
I know, I hear all these different things about with
favors and all this kind of.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Stuff, but a lot of things broke well for them too.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
So I'm curious to see based on whatever I don't
even know what they're from minor leagues look like. But
it's gonna be hard for them to replicate that last point.
Money equals power and power equals money. The fact that
these these top teams are home run hitters because they
got money, they could you know, they could. They could
attract and and and keep and and acquire people that
(20:34):
have power, whether it's pitching power or power at the plate,
and it and it goes both ways. And if you
have the power, that's gonna eventually create more money because
you're gonna be successful and all of a sudden you're
the World Series champs. So that's never gonna change. That's
that's probably the same everywhere we go. That money equals
power and power equals money, and that's what we're seeing.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
But but in the meantime.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
If everybody's not capable, like we've talked about this, are
able to spend that kind of dough for all those
different bills and whistles that you want or need to
win a World Series, that's where, like you just said,
they played baseball great, the Blue Jays did, and that's
to me, that's what you got to do. If in fact,
you're not one of the power brokers with all that
do and you can't attract the different pictures from the
(21:19):
Japanese pitchers, and you can't attract O Twani, and you
can't keep Freddie Freeman and Bets on the same team
for a period of time.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
If you can't do that. You got to look for
an alternative method.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, and don't be surprised if Kyle Tucker winds up
with the Los Angeles Dodgers. To your point, Yeah, they
can actually sign him without adding to their payroll. He's
probably a forty million dollars a year plus player and
they have that much coming off the payroll. And he
looked at their outfield in Game seven of the World
Series with Kei y Hernandez, Tommy Edmund and Taoscar Hernandez.
They actually do need another bat. And it wouldn't shock
(21:51):
me if Kyle Tucker. I don't know why he wouldn't
go there. We're gonna pay him. He's in a great lineup.
He doesn't have to be the guy to be the
fulcrum of attention and responsibility. That's a matchup I think
probably will happened. We're going to take a break, Joe.
I can't wait to get your thought on another trend
that's happening in baseball when it comes to managing, it
seems like no.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Experience is necessary. Talked about that right after this. Welcome
back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I'm sure you saw Joe that San Diego Padres have
a fourth new manager in the last six years, and
it's Craig Stamon, a guy who's a middle reliever as
a player. Now, he's been an advisor to gm AJ
Preller in San Diego for a while. He knows everybody
in that clubhouse. He knows the systems there really well.
But he's never coached or managed. So this is a
(22:51):
middle reliever who's going to manage a team that's expected
to be a contender.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It's outside the box.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Now.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
We saw thirty three year old Blake but Terra.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Hired by the Washington Nationals, basically came out of the
Ray's minor league system.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Kurtz Zuki with the Angels over and over again.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Now we're seeing players, coaches, advisors, whatever they are elevated
to the manager's job really quickly. Now, if you want
a template, it's hard to argue against the guy like
Steven Vote one year of coaching in the Seattle Mariners
bullpen before he became The Guardian's manager.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
He's done a terrific job.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You know, he was just one of those guys I
thought you looked at right away, even when he was playing.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
You said that dude's going to be a manager.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
So I want to get your take, Joe, because for me,
we talked about Tony Vatelo being hired out of Tennessee.
I'm not against this as just a blanket position, like, oh,
you've got to earn your way up, you got to
pay your dues. I think there's, as you know, Joe
better than anybody, there's so much information and there's so
many hands in the kitchen helping prepare the meal that
(23:56):
running the show yourself doesn't happen. So there's all kinds
of now run prevention and run production, peeple assistant coaches, strategists.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You name it.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
There's all kinds of different titles now that I think
the number one quality now for a manager is leadership.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
It's an old school word, I get it.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
But Craig Stammon is a guy who knows everybody in
that clubhouse and they do have respect for him, so
he does start with that. So I'm not ruling out
these guys without experience. I'm not one to say, well,
what about all those guys managing TRIPAA for the last
ten years and they're not getting their shot.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I feel for them, believe me.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
But if you're a leader and you show that I
don't have a problem with some of these hires just
on the fact that they don't have experience.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Yeah, well, as you're going through all that, and you're
right on the money as usual, I'm jotting down certain
qualities in life. I think through the years have become
kind of archaic. I think experience is almost arriving at
the archaic point. I think wisdom has been downgraded, and
I think Field there's probably the one that really has
(25:06):
been kicked off the side of the boat already. These
things have become archaic meeting they're not necessary, and I
think the more we rely on math, where I a
AI is taking over, that really renders a lot of
these human qualities as being useless, not necessary, as maybe
not necessarily useless, because like I said, I think in
(25:28):
this World series, you saw where David and John had
to really push themselves to like really rely on their o,
their history, their their baseball experience. They get through different moments,
but overall, I think the way the world is trending,
and not just baseball, these are kind of qualities that
nobody's looking for anymore, and they don't really want them.
(25:49):
You're talking about vote Voter. I'll tell you this for sure.
I had Steven. I had Voter when he started out,
when Voter was just a minor league player.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
And.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
He was really in the meetings of this guy's an
a ball guy. Tops he can hit a little bit,
he can't. I mean, I'm telling you all this because
I didn't know this, because this was what I was
being told. But whenever we needed somebody to come over
to the big league team to fill a spot during
the spring training game, we would ask for Voter. Voter
would come over, put him out in front of everybody.
He'd tell a joker to and he had this really
(26:20):
ingratiating personality. So it's really obvious from the beginning. Yeah,
he could lead based on his personality, great listener, and
tremendous sense of humor. Different cat leadership today, I don't
even know. Again, we've talked about this. What is leadership
today and what does that mean? I think a lot
of it has to do with pr and media ability.
(26:41):
Guys that really speak well could handle themselves front of
a microphone and a group. I think that is where
we're terming his leadership anymore. That's become really popular. I mean,
think about the old guard of managers, and even like
you can even go to Belichick. I guess he's a
great leader, right, but really not a very good communicator publicly,
(27:01):
Geene Mock. You know, they disdain they hated the microphone there,
And I could go through a whole bunch of different
dudes that were considered great managers that didn't like all
that stuff. But their leadership came from their their knowledge,
their their experience, their feel for the game, their wisdom.
That's what was really considered necessary at one point, where
today it's like void, you don't need this. We have
(27:23):
artificial intelligence, we have all this math. All we need
you to do is speak well. And like you're kind
of suggesting keep this clubhouse in order, and I don't
even know what that means. I don't know if that's
acquiescence to what the group wants necessary? Is that necessarily
going in there and trying to enact what you perceive
to be teaching these guys the right way to act?
(27:45):
What does it mean to be a pro and how
do you remain a pro? Or are you constantly catering
to their needs? So that's what I don't know. So anyway,
the endgame, what is the endgame with all this. I'm
not quite sure, but right now it's not just baseball.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Man.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
You just elected a mayor in New York City. That's what,
thirty some years old, and then his right hand person
she's I think thirty four years old. I mean experience
in all the years of failure are not important anymore
in regards to all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
And I think social media has a lot to do
with this. It does.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
I'm not making a determination good or bad, but all
these things are a part of where we have arrived
at at this particular moment, and we'll say what's good
or bad as you'll only know how good they are
when they're thrust into situations when things go sideways, when
things go poorly. Right now, this is all honeymoon stuff,
and so we'll see.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
A couple to follow up on your points there.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
On leadership, you're right, I think running the clubhouse is
super important, especially with superstar players. What that means, I'm
not sure, other than that you better have the confidence
of that superstar player because if he don't, he can
poison other players against the manager. The other thing on leadership,
to me now, Joe is managing up, not just managing
superstar players, but managing up to the front office. That's
(29:07):
a skill set that has probably job number one Stammond's
got that He's worked with Aj Pereller, worked with ownership,
been in all those meetings. Very comfortable for them to
hire someone who already knows the systems and knows them
on the upper management level. That's super important experience. You're
absolutely right, Joe. I always tell people all the time,
(29:27):
is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
The knowledge you can get on Wikipedia, you can get
on AI. Wisdom you can get only with the passage
of time and being put in certain situations, especially uncomfortable ones,
where you come out the other side with something you
never had before. And you're right. We saw that in
the World Series. Both John Snyder and Dave Roberts I
thought were great, and John was very honest and telling
(29:52):
me that he wasn't that way when he first started out.
He was trying to manage to please other people, and
he realized, I have to be myself, and he was
the best manager he's ever been this year because he
was honest with himself about doing it his way.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
That's why I like it.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
For instance, what Washington has done with Utera there at
thirty three years old. His bench coach has got named
Michael John's. He's fifty years old. He's had more than
two decades in baseball. He's a minor league manager for
nine years. Is that the major leagues? No, But dude's
a baseball lifer in his fifties who's been there, done that.
So I like the idea, if you're going to hire
(30:28):
these guys without experience, make sure you've got a right
hand man, woman, whoever next to him in the dugout,
who has been there, done that. So I don't discount
experience and wisdom when it comes to hiring that manager,
but you know, I need to have it in my staff.
(30:49):
I can't just go all you know, first timers out
there running things and living with their mistakes.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
First of all, Michael Johnson hit a two iron, he
crashes it off the tee.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
I know him, I play golf with him.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
He's good, very strong guy. Obviously, I guess the same
page is always good. I mean meaning that hiring proller,
hiring somebody that he's comfortable with, that's that's obviously a
good thing, or a shared philosophy that's a good thing,
but I always I always want a contrarian or two around.
Perfect example, when I was with the Angels and I
got there, and when Sosh took over, he brought in
(31:25):
a lot of his former teammates, including ron Rennicky, who
became a very good major league manager. Raggs was a
contrarian and in all the best possible ways, only because
he's a brilliant baseball mind, and he would challenge you constantly,
or challenge anybody.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Our meetings were raucous. I'm telling you me.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
Buddy Black Pepe, Mickey Hatcher, Primo, Alfredo Rags, that's Ronnie Rennicky,
and of course Sosia himself. My god, I mean, be prepared.
It's it's like sitting at the dinner table with Uncle
Rick back in the day. My uncle Rick was a
doctor and he would challenge everybody sitting at that dinner
table every night, and you better be prepared to defend
(32:05):
your position. Or having Bob Elucid at that of the table,
Bob clear, that's what you need.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
See I don't see that enough.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
I mean, I know that's not it's true, because you know,
my last couple of years, even with the Cubs, and
then with the Angels, that contrarian opinion is not there.
It's always everybody's acquiescent. Everybody's always in agreement. And if
you are a contrary in a belief system, that only
occurs at the water cooler. In other words, if I
disagree with whomever and you're in the same room there
(32:35):
and any other questions, any other comments, nobody says.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Anything, you walk out.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
Then immediately I find tommy Erducci and I say, listen,
I don't agree with this at all, but it's the
water cooler moment. Whereas it should have been said in
the room. I want a room that says it right here,
right now. Tell me straight up, you do with respect.
You don't call anybody an idiot. I mean, you know,
you know it's not pugilistic, but it has to be
(33:02):
like verbally pugilistic. It's an argument on thoughts and ideas
and beliefs. It's necessary to be great. And I don't
think a lot of these places get that because everybody's afraid.
And I would, really, I mean, that would be like
the first thing I did when he Stephen run the
minor leagues for the angel in the eighties, and I
have like Johnnie McNamara sitting out there, and Bobby Gritch
sitting out there, and Dave Garcia sitting out there, all
(33:25):
these former major league guys, and I'm like, I don't know,
thirty years old, I'm at the age of these guys,
and I'm running the minor league system, and I'm putting
my stuff out there, and I got to be able
to defend what I'm saying in front of these dudes,
because these guys are definitely not going to tell you
what you want to hear. So that's the part that
I don't know that's paid enough attention to. I don't
think it's valued anymore because everybody wants acquiescence. Nobody wants
(33:48):
the real important contrarian just to stir it up a bit,
to make sure that we're not missing anything and that
we're not just permitting the power to go into this
one area. Listen, just because you're the head guy doesn't
mean you're really good at what you do.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Trust me so well said, I'm glad you brought that up.
It made me think of two things.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Number One, Ragga's got himself another ring, and I'm sure
he's doing the same thing with the Dodgers. Yeah, you know,
he's not a guy who's gonna, you know, own the room,
but he's gonna speak up if he sees something. And
I think his wisdom means a lot to the LA Dodgers.
And then you made me think of Zim with Joe Tory.
Was there any better combination than that? And Zim would
(34:27):
always bring up things in the course of a game
that hey, you think about starting the runner here, Hey
who you got in the bullpen coming up next? And
sometimes Joe would say, no, this is what I'm doing.
But he made Joe Tory think outside the box and
maybe think of things that maybe didn't come to his mind.
And they had such a great relationship that you can
be a contrarian without any kind of cost of personal cost,
(34:47):
like I can't believe this guy's going against me, Like
it's it's something that I guess some guys don't want.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
But that's a.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Healthy relationship and a working relationship and a dugout Joe. Finally,
let's get to this is Awards week, by the way,
and the big one's coming up Thursday, the American League MVP.
I want to know who you between Cal Rawley and
Aaron Judge, because I've been all over Judge as the MVP,
because when you break down the actual numbers, they're actually
not that close. I know that that Cal had more
(35:16):
home runs and more RBIs, I get that, folks, But
when you look at everything across the board, we never
had a hitter who won the batting title and he
wanted to buy a lot. By the way, he was
what more than twenty points ahead of everybody else in
baseball with batting average, who also had fifty three home runs,
the most home runs ever buy a batting champion. So
but then I watched Cal in the postseason man and
(35:37):
actually watching him play every day for the Mariners, taking
foul balls and running mound visits and running the game,
and you know, he caught more innings than anybody in
the American League this year.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I started to truly value what people were talking about.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Not that I didn't appreciate it, but I a deeper
appreciation for what he does on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
It's a great debate.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
It's going to continue once the announcement is made Thursday night.
I think Aaron Judge is going to win. I'm not
sure of that, but I think the voters are going
to go with the guy with the better numbers across
the board. Give me your take, Joe on who you
got Aaron Judge cal Raley.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Yeah, and first of all, the voting's done before the postseason, correct,
That's all right, But I brought that up. Yeah, what
are we voting on?
Speaker 3 (36:21):
What is? What are we voting on?
Speaker 4 (36:23):
The best numbers, the most impactful guy for the team
during the course of the season, the.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Most complete game. What are you voting for?
Speaker 4 (36:33):
If it's just based on numbers, You're probably right. I
think overarching Judge woulout do rally in some ways with that. Obviously,
the on base and everything else was ridiculous. And again,
but then again take just take out the intentional walk
sometimes I would be curious. I don't even know what
that does with the numbers overall.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
But I just just but.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
I'm sure Raley received his royal treatments on occasion too.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
But I don't know if I'm biased.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
I think I am, having played the position and to
do what Rawley did offensively and those numbers that he
put up there offensively and squat back there all year
like he did, and all the work that he did.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Before the game.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
The way he split his time, and the depth with
which this team went into the postseason, and again I
know postseason doesn't count, but all of those things into consideration.
As a baseball player, what he did there that's really
not just unusual, it's never happened. I don't think right
everything that he had done, and you could almost like
(37:34):
talk about, you know how we talk about showhy doing
things that have never been done, and judges numbers are spectacular,
but I think they've kind of been done, especially from
an outfield. He's been hurt a little bit, you know,
he came back slowly partial DH.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
I'm not blaming him for being hurt.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
But I think overall Rawley's performance as a catcher, if
you've ever played the position, what he did not only
on gott numerically, but to play every day, to stay healthy,
to play with the enthusiasm that he does, the importance
of the game, the amount of work he does before
the game, the way he impacts it during the game.
(38:12):
There's no real equation, there's no mathematical equation. I'd never
learned that one in algebra algebra three trig which I
was really bad at. So I just think Rawley, if
you could put it all together, and if you really
wanted to break it down, I give him a slight
edge over Judge.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, you think about last year, Bobby Witt Junior had
one of the greatest offensive seasons ever for a shortstop,
didn't win the MVP. Cal Rawley to me had the
greatest offensive season ever for a catcher. I'm probably all
around because he is a premier defender as well, and
he might not win the MVP. It just goes to
show you that Aaron Judge is this generation's babe Ruth.
(38:48):
I mean, he's that far out in front in terms
of being and I can't even say just the slugger anymore, Joe.
He's just a great hitter who is head and shoulders
above really everybody else for this run that he's on
for these years, not just twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
I think it's gonna be a close vote.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
As I said, I think, knowing what I know about
voters and what you just said about numbers across the board,
if it becomes a math exercise, a Judge is gonna win.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
There's I'm appealing to the non mathematical part of anybody's
brain right now. I'm just learning to on the human
side a little bit, but the other part, and I
still believe there's there's the East Coast bias. There's no question,
not everybody saw Raley do all this stuff all year
except for videos a lot of time. I mean there's that,
and I mean Aaron Judge is he's wonderful, what a
(39:38):
great guy, and so it is Rawleigh. But I actually
had conversation with Aaron Judge, is.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
All of that.
Speaker 4 (39:44):
He should be the captain, he should be the face
of the Yankees, he should be almost the face of baseball,
which he is with show. Hey, I think there's you know, simultaneously,
if they could do like a two headed poster, you'd
have both guys back to back.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Somehow they are and that's he deserves it, He's earned it.
He is all of that.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
But I mean, I guess my bias is based on
the fact that I've done some of what Rawley did.
Listen not trusts me what he did, like I said,
playing every day to that level at that position and
then take it over to the offensive side. That's the
part that to me is the tipping point and why
I would put him over the top.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Hey, we're going to take a quick break on the
Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
When we get back, we need to talk about a
certain pitcher who was announcing his retirement, and I cannot
wait to hear how Joe Madden celebrates the end of
Kyle Hendricks's career.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
We'll do that. Pray happiness, Welcome back to the Book
of Joe.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Kyle Hendricks is calling it a career after three hundred
and one starts on the major league level. One five
and ninety one is his record. But of course he's
going to be remembered, as you know, one of the
most consequential Cubs pitchers of all time.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
And he did it in such.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
A way, you know, with humility and class and a
master of changing speeds. I'm not sure I've ever seen
anybody who can do so many things with a change
up in terms of a guy as a hitter, knowing
it's coming but not really sure which way it's going
to break and at what speed.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
It's just a.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Master at manipulating the baseball and making it do what
he wants. Here's a note for you, Joe on Kyle
Hendricks in his last season pitching for the Angels. He's
from southern California, so some way he was going back home.
He allowed the lowest exit velocity in baseball. He was
tied with Hunter Brown and Trek Skubell, two Cy Young
(41:54):
Award finalists, for the lowest average exit velocity. In other words,
at the end of his career, Kyle Hendricks was still
fooling hitters and moving the ball off the barrel of
the bat. Just an amazing pitcher. And of course, Joe,
I'm sure like the rest of us, you probably think
immediately about twenty sixteen and what he did in the
(42:17):
postseason through eleven innings in the World Series with is
one earned run at one point four to two eer
throughout that postseason. So Flora is yours, Joe, Kyle Hendrix,
knowing that he's his major league career is over, what
comes to your mind?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
We really laid it up pretty well there.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
First of all, this guy is quality at Dartmouth boy
Huntingdon Beach. What a great conversation that you talk about,
the consummate team player. On top of all that, I mean,
there was times, you know, in the National League game,
I had to take him out of the game, maybe
going into the sixth inning, and it's won nothing because
as that bat came up in a crucial moment.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Okay, I got it.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
You know, he didn't like it, he never liked it,
but he was class see about it, and he did
what he what you're supposed to do in that moment.
And so first of all, you have to understand this guy.
The word class I think is thrown around way too easily,
way too often, and it should be reserved really for
special people. Kyle's a special person. I love the fact
(43:21):
that you talk about the ex adilo. That was a
big part of our twenty sixteen season.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
And that's the part where when you want, if you want.
Speaker 4 (43:30):
Your defense to play big, get pitchers that don't let
the other team hit the ball hard.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
That's where defense plays big.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
So when you reduce sex of velocities off the other team,
your shortstop gets greater range, your second basemen, everybody gets
greater range.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
And that's what he did. I mean, we played our.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Butts off on defense when this guy pitched. And just
because we're talking about the ball is never squared up.
It was hard to square him up. It almost looks
like a whiffle ball from the side. And I'm going
to make a prediction right now. I this guy is
a good golfer, so he's going to go play a
lot of golf. Good golfer, but he'd be the perfect
guy for somebody to talk to, like a real contending
(44:08):
team for next year going into the season, almost like
what the a Phillies did with Robertson coming back as
relief pitcher Late, who actually saw him at a tunnel
the Towers Golf tournament earlier this year before he ends
up pitching for the a Phillies Late. I think, Kyle,
if I'm a contending team into next year, maybe the Dodgers,
I would speak to him now going into this offseason
(44:31):
at some point, putting that in the back of his
mind if he would consider doing something like that, because
that would be the perfect scenario for him, I think,
and I wouldn't run away from that if he was
open to it. Kyle Hendrix, I look at the gun
first inning. Sometimes I'd see eighty four on his fast
and go okay, because because because it was like when
(44:53):
it got to be eighty four, there wasn't a big
difference between that and his change in velocity wise, and
that would be concerned if I saw eighty six, eighty seven,
eighty eight, I was really having.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
A nice game.
Speaker 4 (45:04):
This is gonna be nice because there's that discrepancy between
fastball and change up. The other thing about him, I've
never seen so many hitters take a called strike against
the pitcher and like, look the off balance and never
argue it. I mean that come back two seamer that
he threw outside edge to righty's that would come back,
(45:27):
or the inside front hip guide to the to the
lefties take it. They would just take it like a man,
never argue. The umpire has got it right. They know
he's coming and they would still be surprised by it.
He was just He's just a different cat. Wonderful. Like
I said, wonderful dude. But if I'm I don't know again,
the Dodgers or somebody like even maybe the Padres, I
(45:50):
don't know, somebody in that and particularly in that neck
of the wood San Francisco. If you think you're going
to be in it at the end of next year,
talk to this guy.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
Now.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
That is a great idea.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
I had not thought of that, but he made me
think of Pedro Martinez in two thousand and nine with
the Phillies wound up pitching.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
The World Series for him.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Tell me what you remember, Joe about one of the
most important games in Cubs history that Kyle pitched, the
clinching National League Pentic coaching game against the LA Dodgers.
He took the ball into the eighth inning, allowed two hits,
no runs, no walks, and six strikeouts.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
As a manager, that was like the most privileged game
I've I think I've ever been involved in. We played,
I mean, as close to a perfect baseball game as
can be played. We did the Cubs and then with him,
I mean that was against Kershaw, I believe right and
in he he being Kyle is unflappable.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
He just is.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
I don't care what the moment is, what's going on
around him. He's always the same dude. So you don't
you don't even worry about that is there's never going
to be this moment that gets too quick for him.
He'll always be able to rein it in. So the
point about that game for me, was such a big
game for us in the history of the the Cubbies,
(47:10):
is that he was he was Kyle.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
He was the same.
Speaker 4 (47:12):
It's no different than that night he had a no
hitter going in Saint Louis into the ninth inning, where
I had to get Chapman up real quick and then
I get kicked out of the game.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
By Joe West.
Speaker 4 (47:22):
I mean when Kyle Hendricks gets on a on a
run and that thing is working, and you see these
bat takes by the hitters and just like talking about
the weak contact because it's effortless. I mean, that's the
other thing about him with like arm strength and not
getting injured off and it's an effortless kind of a
delivery that he has. And he says he's a perfectionist.
(47:45):
So that to me as a manager in the years
that I've done, that possibly one of the most perfect
games that I was involved with.
Speaker 3 (47:53):
Just stay out of the way and let these guys go. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
I used to say watching Kyle throw with that he
had a very unique way of setting his wrist behind
him throwing a baseball. To me, it looked like guy
throwing a paper plane, right, Okay, just a lack of effort.
It seemed like, I know it wasn't, but just was
a pleasure to watch pitch. How about this Joe in
(48:16):
that World Series and give theo Epstein a lot of credit.
And I wrote a lot about this in my book
The Cub's way where he built this team around drafting
and developing position players because they set the tone, they
set the whole culture of a team. They're literally everyday players.
And he was able to acquire pitching. Joe, you used
(48:37):
eleven pitchers in the World Series. None of them were homegrown, right,
including of course Kyle Hendrix was obtained that trade. You know,
Jake Arietta, John Lackey, John Lester, up and down the line.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
How about that?
Speaker 1 (48:52):
And not a pitch was thrown by a homegrown Cub
the twenty sixteen World Series.
Speaker 4 (48:57):
Well, that was part of the concern at that point,
that the Cubs were not nurturing their own pitching.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
That was it.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
But like you said, intentionally, it was all based on
getting the offensive players.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
In their shore.
Speaker 4 (49:07):
Bra had a pretty good impact, Bias had a great impact.
KB did, of course, so control us all the homegrown
age excuse me, Cubs players definitely made an impact, But
there was a time there. I think it's gotten a
little bit better, but there was not a whole lot
of homegrown pitching done back there. So he did THEOGA
did a nice job of bringing guys in there, a
(49:29):
lot of experienced guys too, and putting, you know, right
down to the bullpen, getting a rolled this like we did.
I think that was for Glibor Taurus going into that
World Series. You know, Pedro Strope loved me, Si Pedro
stropector run Don and of course Mike Montgomery he even knew,
right And who even knew about Carl Edwards Junior. Who
(49:49):
knew that these guys would be that impactful.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 4 (49:53):
I mean, these are the kind of guys you find
out during the latter part of the year, during September,
we were getting this whole thing like kind of I
don't want to say wrapped up, but in good shape.
These are the guys who were like the most aramend
out of the bulletpenper Carl Montgomery and I think the
left the left hand or Travis Wood. Yeah, thank you Travis,
(50:14):
My god, what a beautiful man. So yeah, it's you
just never know, You just never know. But that is
like wonderful scouting. And uh, like I said, Jake Carriot,
which was better than that. So a great job of
putting a piece of it together.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yes, well we've reached the ninth ending of this latest
episode of the Book of Joe. You always bring us home,
Joe with some words of wisdom. We've been all over
the map today. What do you got to finish this
off today?
Speaker 4 (50:40):
I thought I had it, but you made I mean,
I've made me shift gears and I got two things.
Actually the one I had was by James Baldwin. I
read James Baldwin. I was in college, a Native son,
and I love and it's about experience. So you know,
we're talking about experience, and this is my first thought. Uh,
(51:01):
take no one's word for anything, including mine. He wrote,
but trust your experience. And wow, I mean that's not
even just talked about it. That's not even that's almost
becoming archaic. Then in a verbal I heard him talking about,
you know, somebody that was trying to put him in
a corner. He says, I am not your label. The
label belongs to you, not to me.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
God did I love that? And it's true.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
I mean, every time, you know, somebody tries to pin
a definition on you, just defining yourself. Man, when you
start attempting to label somebody else, you're really talking about
you and which your worries are, on, which how you
define life, et cetera. So that was the James Baldwin
side of it. That's what I began with. But then
you're talking about the contrarian stuff, talking about Ron Renike's
(51:48):
of the world. And I read this in a book
not a one hundred percent sure it might have been
a Wayne Dyer situation, and I think it was like
more like an ancient Chinese proverb or something to that effect,
or something in Zen philosophy, but talking about teaching or teachers,
and it came down to this point, and I love this.
(52:09):
I can't teach you anything, but it could only make
you think. That's what a great teacher does. I remember
for years Bob Clear Babaloo in our book, The Book
of Joe bob Aloo would just piss me off, and
then he would say, I'm just trying to get you
to think a little bit, you know, And so eventually
I read that passage and all we can think about
(52:30):
is bob Aloo. So trust your own experience, and if
you start trying to label people, realize you're just defining yourself.
Speaker 3 (52:39):
And lastly, I can't teach you anything, but I can
make you think.
Speaker 4 (52:43):
And I think if you get that person on your
staff that is such an invaluable person to have.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
Oh great stuff. I love that, Joe, especially about labels.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
I look at labels and boundaries and I think those
things are lazy and they're artificial. I have no use
for them, and I would never apply it to myself,
so why would I apply it to anybody else.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
I'm glad you brought that up. And uh and yeah, contrarians,
we need them.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Yeah right, And I admire people who don't have to
be the smartest person in the room, who know what
they don't know, and surround themselves with people who can
complete them.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Agreed.
Speaker 4 (53:21):
I mean that's uh yeah, Like I said, Ronnie Rennick
is the motivation for that thought for me right now,
along with bab Aloo.
Speaker 3 (53:29):
But I'm telling you, Rags is really sharp.
Speaker 4 (53:31):
Rags is well read, and he he he is so
classic old school because if you do he is, he's
right up there with Baba Loo and uh Ronnie Platt
and uh Carl Keel and you know, Jimmy le Fever
and I could keep going on and on. If you
don't want to hear the answer, don't don't let don't
(53:54):
ask the question, man, because they're gonna tell.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
You exactly what they think. They are truth tellers. And
God do I love the truth Tellers? Oh, we love it. Joe.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Great stuff. We'll see you next time on the Book
of Joe.
Speaker 3 (54:05):
See your brother, Thanks man.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey thereon Welcome Back.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
It's the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci
and of course Joe Madden. Joe, it was bound to
happen and hit other sports, but we need to talk
about gambling in baseball. With the arrests of Cleveland pitchers
Louis Ortiz and Emmanuel Class, this is really interesting because
(00:39):
it seems like tip of the iceberg here and hopefully
that it's not. But first of all, Joe, I know
you've been in the dugout. It's been a point of
contention for clubs for years to inform players of the
dudes and the don'ts, mostly don'ts about gambling. What is
different now you think about the culture of gambling and
why it's a concern across all sports.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
It's ubiquitous. I mean, it's it's everywhere.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
Like I could just pick up my phone right here
if I chose to, and I could make a bet.
At least that there was a time you had to
work to make a bet a little bit. You had
to go to a local bar room, go to the
back room, go see Rocky, hang out, have a cheese
steak Holgi with maybe a glass of Yangling and you
make a bet. But nowadays you could just pick up
your phone. I don't, I honestly don't get it. I
(01:26):
really don't. I know everybody the government's stayed in local, federal,
they're all primarily stay local. They're trying to create revenue
through this, through having people gamble away money that they
can afford to do. I mean, there's certain people that
could afford to lose, and there's probably I don't even
know what the percentages that cannot afford to lose, and
(01:46):
it's heavy. So I've not against it. I've been against
it from the beginning. I can't believe that we advertise it.
It's like it's like when you watch the nightly news
at six thirty whatever. And I used to watch that
often and now I get my new sources elsewhere, but
we're always advertising illness. I mean, for that half hour
that are always about your ill and take this drug
(02:06):
because or because it's going to make you feel better,
or just they create a list of symptoms that you got,
oh that's me, and then eventually you got to go
to your doctor. You get this pill and all of
a sudden you know, you're taking stuff you really shouldn't
be taken. So we're advertising illness, we're advertising betting, we're
advertising so many things that are really not right.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I don't get it. And now what do you expect?
Was it this?
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Like talked about a lot as you're going to permit
betting and now we're talking about permitting a casino near
what city field in New York?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Right or they're trying or whatever.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Yeah, So but there's it's it's just makes zero sense.
Every spring training you have to read that big, long
piece of litigation regarding not gambling on baseball, not gambling
on baseball and sports in general, and it just goes
on deaf ears. I mean, there was a time I
think it could be a little bit more scary, but
(03:06):
in today's culture, nothing scarce. We've made everything too easy
to doomed. It's the downgrading of deviant behavior that's becoming
absolutely normalized. So blessed, I have expected it. It's gonna
keep getting worse. I don't get it. We're the grown
ups and it's all about money, and I don't I'm
not into it.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
That's all well said, and I completely agree with you,
Joe that we have become a society of convenience, and
that includes the abnormal that we're making more convenient.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Not only convenient, but addictive.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
We know that gambling is addictive, and with technology now
at your fingertips, you're talking about systems that are designed
to make gambling addictive. They will tail our bet props
to you based on your betting patterns. They will start
feeding you more money in your account to.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Keep you going.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
It's just crazy that this is all happening in it
in plain daylight, really, and people are getting too deep now.
I know a lot of the conversation Joe is about
how could someone like Emmanuel class And by the way,
the agents for both players have denied charges here, so
we'll see how it plays out in a court of law.
(04:19):
But Class A is a guy working under a twenty
million dollar contract. He also had an option for twenty
seven and twenty eight at another eighteen million dollars. And
we're talking about betting pattern here that was going on
for two years, two years in which he and these
associates cleared four hundred and fifty thousand dollars over two years.
(04:42):
So I know a lot of the reaction was why
is a guy. Now you know, making five six million
dollars a year dabbling in two thousand dollars prop bets.
The answer to the question is, and you touched on this, Joe,
it's too easy. Oh he thought it was anyway until
he got caught. It's these micro bets, these prop bets.
(05:04):
So it wasn't like these pitchers, according to the indictment,
we're saying I'm going to bet against my team to
win or lose. No, what they're doing is they're betting on, say,
the first pitch of an inning being below a certain
mile per hour or being a ball.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Or a strike.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
And I'm sure the player, the athlete, and this applies
to other sports as well as thinking I'm not shaving games,
I'm not shaving points, I'm not throwing games. This is
very harmless. And my buddies can earn a buck or
two here, even more than that. So Classe gets to
the mound and he's going to say, you know what,
the prop bet here is my first pitch is going
(05:44):
to be below ninety eight miles an hour. I'll just
throw a slider, or the prop bet is baller strike
first pitch.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I'll just throw a slider and make sure that I
bounce it.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
There was actually one circumstance where Andy Pie has the Dodgers,
was the pitcher the prop bet or the batter. The
prop bet was baller strike first pitch, so he intention
they throws a slider in the dirt and Pots swings
at it. So they lost that bet. But people need
to understand that these micro bets are a big part
of the problem. You can bet on virtually anything, and
(06:18):
in this case, they're thinking.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You know what, no one's going to know.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Well, you know what, given the algorithms today, Joe, that
that you know, these betting companies have, they will find
anomalous patterns. So when they see a ton of money on,
say the first pitch of a Cleveland game in the
in the eighth inning, they're like, what's going on here?
And you just kind of follow the data in terms
of betting patterns. So I'm glad baseball has come out
(06:44):
and with the cooperation of the betting companies, Joe, they
said basically, no more bets of more than two hundred
dollars on these pitch level bets, you know, plus or
minus the miles barrow or ball or strike that's a
start and I think as they found out and they
got in bed with these gambling companies, that there are
unintended consequence and they're just finding it out. So I
(07:05):
think the idea of capping those bets at two hundred,
to me, I think they shouldn't even be legal.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
You just get rid of a period.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
And I know the governor of Ohio has argued for that,
but at least this is a step forward.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Wow, so much right there? Where does it start?
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Guys that are making that much money feeling compelled to
do something like this? Is it a thrill component? Is
there a power involved? Are they, like you said, I
think you insinuated? Are they trying to take care of friends?
In other words, tell somebody, a family member, whatever, if
you bet here, you have a pretty good chance of
winning a lot of money based on what I'm going
to do.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Or not do.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
All this stuff is really brutal. It's disgusting. I don't
like any of it. To even think, Okay, now we're
going to rationalize this and put a cap on the
amount of money bet on me. That is ridiculous. It's
just so wrong on so many different levels. And to
think that, to think that you didn't think that all
this stuff was going to lead you down the wrong
(07:59):
path at some point is crazy. They had to have
had these conversations. They had to like almost like decide
how much are we going to be able to absorb
or want to absorb before we have to make changes
to all this. We just let it go until something
happens that will make the alterations. Honestly, I don't get it.
I I've said that from Jump Street. It makes zero
(08:20):
sense to me that all of a sudden, now you
go back to the Black Sox scandal and you go
to mister Rose and you do everything else that we've done.
Jack Molinas in basketball, what was at NYU back in
the day. He actually played basketball in Hazelton when I
was a kid for the Hazelton Hawks. I mean, all
these things have gone on fears, but now it's becoming easy.
(08:40):
And as it becomes easier to do these things. And
then at last point, you say, you know, talked about
the salary that they're making. But then again, who knows
how they've invested their money and who knows how much
that they needed a quick hit to make something good
or to make something good and not necessarily jump into
this big pile of money that's being invested, which would
become more obvious. There's so many different reasons and layers,
(09:02):
and it's kind of a novel waiting to be written
by Nelson demil Man. It's just not good. Stop You're
not going to stop it. I understand that. I mean,
and I'm just like I said, I look at players,
former players that now do commercials for this stuff. Wow,
I really, I don't even see why that's legal to permit,
(09:23):
even like athlete's even former athletes that are now somehow
involved in the sport. How are they even able or
capable or permit it to advertise for this stuff. Doesn't
that somehow make them accessories in some way in regards
to if this does go sideways, I don't get it.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I'm glad you brought that up, Joe.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
It bothers me as well, because to me, it's no
different than saying, signing an endorsement deal for cigarettes smoking cigarettes, right,
you are promoting something that's really not healthy for the
general public and in fact, can really destroy a lot
of people. There are some point, especially some of these
athletes who have made a lot of money, and I
know that's sort of besides, it's the point, but it
(10:04):
is part of the equation here. Do you really need
it to get in bed with something like that just
because someone comes to you with an offer and it's
easy money, and you film a couple of commercials and
you make a couple of appearances. Think about what you're
doing here and what you're promoting. Because I can tell
you this, Joe, I'm not sure if you've noticed this.
And I know a society in general has become less civil.
We know that, and partly that is just social media
(10:27):
and just the turn of venom and negativity. But I've
noticed around ballparks, and I can't speak to other sports.
I'm not in other stadiums and arenas, but in baseball,
the crowds have gotten nastier and you talk to players
and it totally is true. And I'm telling you that
gambling is a part of the equation. I'm not saying
it's the only thing, because again, people are able to
(10:49):
vent their frustrations and their anger and amplified on social media.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I get that.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
But now you go to a baseball game and you
legally have money riding on that game, that player, that performance,
and when it doesn't turn your way.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
You've lost money.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Now it's not just your favorite team lost the game,
but your heart earned dough has gotten down the tube.
And I've seen that in terms of just the anger
that people and I've heard players talk about this as
well too, directed at them, whether it's their fantasy team
or especially you know, placing a prop bet, whatever it
may be. There's a residual cost to this. It's not
(11:25):
just oh, you lost a couple of shekels. It's a
downgrading of our society and civilness.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
No doubt.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
You're describing there as winter ball as it used to
or used to exist anyway. I haven't been there in
a while, but that was a big part of the
culture there, gambling in the stands and a lot of
the booming that would ensue, like when when somebody lost
the bet because of a lack of performance or somebody
wont to bet because of performance.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
But you're talking about this.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
This cocktail that we've been brewing, and it's a combination.
You take social media where it is right now and
again the ease with which amateurs are controlling professionals in
so many different ways, and you combine that will legalize
legalized gambling. That's another thing. I legalize gambling. What's gambling?
(12:11):
Now we're going to say it's legal or illegal. So
when we start placing like different descriptive words in front
of different other words, it's like, really, you're going to
get in bed like legal gambling. So social media plus
legal gambling equals a recipe for disaster. That's the cocktail
I don't want to drink from. And yes, whether you're
a manager, a player, a coach, possibly whatever just involves
(12:35):
somehow when it goes sideways and it's not in your
favor and people start losing bets and money, especially when
they can't afford to Wow, it's just something really awful
is going to happen.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
It just it has to.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
And that's the sadness about how we react to things
here in our world, in our society, is that you
wait until it gets really really bad or something catastrophic occurs,
and then all of a sudden, everybody comes rushing to
the forefront and you got to start changing roles and
you start pointing things out. Every starts pointing fingers. Everybody
becomes like the reason why the culpable the part of
(13:09):
this movement here and and then it's so obvious. It's like, oh, really,
you didn't notice that happening, that that that wasn't going
to happen at some point. Well, I I I'd love
to see somehow the breaks put on this. I don't
see how it's going to be put on this, but
it's it's not good and it's just going to get worse.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Well, you're right about that, because this is going to
be a game of whack a mole. I mean, we're
not sure where the next controversy legal issue is.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Going to come up, but it's going to come.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
As you mentioned, your point is it's ubilulous, it's easy,
and as far as the temptations for people involved in
the competition, whether it's managers, umpires, referees, coaches, you name it,
information is the coin of the realm and they have
access to information. And I'm not sure what the next
scandal is going to be, but it's coming.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
It's going to keep coming.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And the other thing Joe I kind of worry about
is now that you're talking about now a generation growing
up without those sort of hurdles you mentioned when you
had to bet before it took effort.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
You have to do it on the sly.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
It's so easy now that people are indoctrinated now at
an easy age, and I would be concerned that that
is my entry gate for fandom, that people are getting
into these sports now just on the gambling component alone.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Not that you love the.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Sport or your favorite team or your favorite player, but
it's a way to, I guess, enjoy the concept of gambling,
that that is your entry into it. I would worry
about that if I were sports, that that is the
hook for people getting involved in my sport.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Hundred percent, you know, one hundred percent correct. I mean
I've been thinking about that also. Why you know, you
talk to everybody's talking about the uptick in you know,
the baseball interest this past year. Why i'd want to
believe that it was we saw a World Series and
I just you know, play golf, I go to the
I go to ava a restaurant, I hang out, and
which you think about that World Series?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
That was great. It was great, It was very entertaining,
it was good. It was good for baseball.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
And I think the part about that that hasn't been
spoken about it because it was one of the more
extemporaneous seven game series you've seen more recently, where.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
The plan blew up a lot.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
You know, the managers really had to manage, and I
think you saw real baseball being brought to the forefront
outside of the you know, the constant scream from the
bullpen to the mound, and the kind of like the
spring training method of playing World Series baseball. Other than that, though,
I mean, but part of that was the fact that
managers really had to be nimble during this series. And
(15:49):
then you talk about over usage, which god, I mean,
you got crucified for that several years ago, but now
it's just part of the landscape where guys are pitching
nearly every game, every day for the whole time they're
in the playoffs. So that, to me was the most
interesting part about the World Series was that it was
the next temporaneous World Series where it was kind of
old school, and I really enjoyed it for that, where
(16:10):
the planning was done before the game. You saw how
plans blew up, and then you saw how people had
to react, and I thought that was great. But back
to your original point, why is it becoming more popular?
There's no question gambling has led to the popularity, So
thus does that make it good color has made led
to the popularity uniforms and no longer uniforms. Listen, I
(16:30):
used to wear white shoes when I was a kid
playing high school football, even though everybody else is wearing black.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I get it.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
I did some screwy things. My hair was long at
a time when it was supposed to be short. But
to what extent do you permit all of this? So
uniform is no longer uniform Backflip's history. Onic celebration constant
celebration is part of it. I mean, what is the
lure here? Because the lure I don't know that is fundamental,
really clean, good baseball. Although, like I said, I think
part of why people enjoyed all of this World Series,
(16:58):
but there was a lot of that. There was a
lot of drama, man, and teams didn't quit, and both
sides kept fighting back.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
And you had one team that.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Actually played better baseball losing the World Series, whereas the
one with the veteran kind of a group that never
lost their pois or confidence took advantage of really some breaks,
but to their credit, they took advantage of them. So
there was a lot going on there. But I think
I'd be concerned, Like the House of cards. What is
really going on here? Where's the popularity base? Is it
(17:27):
rooted in baseball or is it rooted in other items?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
I'm going to be Pollyannis here and I want to
believe that it was the baseball because I've had more
people come up to me and say they began rooting
for the Toronto Blue Jays throughout the World Series. They're
not Blue Jays fans, but they love the way that
Toronto Blue Jays played baseball. There was something infectious about
the way Toronto played. Now they're going up against the
(17:54):
team with the big payroll. I get it that's part
of it too, people like the underdog. But I truly
believe it was because if you sat down to watch
these games and you're a casual fan, the Toronto Blue
Jays hooked you because they were putting the ball in play.
You weren't sitting there watching swing and miss after swing
and miss and pop up after pop up. You were
watching great defensive plays, interesting players in the base running.
(18:17):
Sometimes it wasn't very smart, but it was at least interesting.
But I think that Toronto Blue Jays were the best
thing that happened to baseball for a while, and as
Isaiah kind of Felefa told me, we're trying to change baseball.
In other words, they're trying to bring it back to
where it was twenty thirty years ago with the ball
and play. I want to believe Joe that maybe that's
a window for the way forward for this game that
(18:39):
I realized not every team is going to play that way.
I still go back to the fact now six straight
years the world champion has finished in the top four
in home runs, and you look at how the Dodgers
won the World Series, home runs had a lot to
do with it, if not more than any other element.
But I do believe I just from the feedback guy
got Joe that people enjoyed watching this World Series because
(19:03):
it was pacedway well and because of the way Toronto
played it.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah, pitchclock, no ghost runner.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
Like I said, I'd still like to see some of
these new rules pulled back, the three batter minimum, those
kind of things.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
They don't need them.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
With the pitchclock, which is the superstar of all alterations
made in almost any sport when it comes to rules
over the last several years, that's the superstar. That's where
the and you use the word pace. The fact that
happening happening, things are happening constantly. That is the superstar
of all changes, whether it's basketball, football, baseball, whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
So I love that part about it.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
But you said, and that's great, and I would want
I would hope that's the reason why people may be
reattracted to the game would be because God, they played
We saw a baseball game. They played baseball. They played baseball, well,
the whole game, the full game was on display right there,
and that is wonderful. Now, the thing is, and I'm
watching the Blue Jays and I'm watching what they may lose,
(20:02):
and you saw everything went right for than this year.
It's gonna be hard for them to repeat that next.
I know, I hear all these different things about with
favors and all this kind of.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Stuff, but a lot of things broke well for them too.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
So I'm curious to see based on whatever I don't
even know what they're from minor leagues look like. But
it's gonna be hard for them to replicate that last point.
Money equals power and power equals money. The fact that
these these top teams are home run hitters because they
got money, they could you know, they could. They could
attract and and and keep and and acquire people that
(20:34):
have power, whether it's pitching power or power at the plate,
and it and it goes both ways. And if you
have the power, that's gonna eventually create more money because
you're gonna be successful and all of a sudden you're
the World Series champs. So that's never gonna change. That's
that's probably the same everywhere we go. That money equals
power and power equals money, and that's what we're seeing.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
But but in the meantime.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
If everybody's not capable, like we've talked about this, are
able to spend that kind of dough for all those
different bills and whistles that you want or need to
win a World Series, that's where, like you just said,
they played baseball great, the Blue Jays did, and that's
to me, that's what you got to do. If in fact,
you're not one of the power brokers with all that
do and you can't attract the different pictures from the
(21:19):
Japanese pitchers, and you can't attract O Twani, and you
can't keep Freddie Freeman and Bets on the same team
for a period of time.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
If you can't do that. You got to look for
an alternative method.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, and don't be surprised if Kyle Tucker winds up
with the Los Angeles Dodgers. To your point, Yeah, they
can actually sign him without adding to their payroll. He's
probably a forty million dollars a year plus player and
they have that much coming off the payroll. And he
looked at their outfield in Game seven of the World
Series with Kei y Hernandez, Tommy Edmund and Taoscar Hernandez.
They actually do need another bat. And it wouldn't shock
(21:51):
me if Kyle Tucker. I don't know why he wouldn't
go there. We're gonna pay him. He's in a great lineup.
He doesn't have to be the guy to be the
fulcrum of attention and responsibility. That's a matchup I think
probably will happened. We're going to take a break, Joe.
I can't wait to get your thought on another trend
that's happening in baseball when it comes to managing, it
seems like no.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Experience is necessary. Talked about that right after this. Welcome
back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I'm sure you saw Joe that San Diego Padres have
a fourth new manager in the last six years, and
it's Craig Stamon, a guy who's a middle reliever as
a player. Now, he's been an advisor to gm AJ
Preller in San Diego for a while. He knows everybody
in that clubhouse. He knows the systems there really well.
But he's never coached or managed. So this is a
(22:51):
middle reliever who's going to manage a team that's expected
to be a contender.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It's outside the box.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Now.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
We saw thirty three year old Blake but Terra.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Hired by the Washington Nationals, basically came out of the
Ray's minor league system.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Kurtz Zuki with the Angels over and over again.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Now we're seeing players, coaches, advisors, whatever they are elevated
to the manager's job really quickly. Now, if you want
a template, it's hard to argue against the guy like
Steven Vote one year of coaching in the Seattle Mariners
bullpen before he became The Guardian's manager.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
He's done a terrific job.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You know, he was just one of those guys I
thought you looked at right away, even when he was playing.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
You said that dude's going to be a manager.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
So I want to get your take, Joe, because for me,
we talked about Tony Vatelo being hired out of Tennessee.
I'm not against this as just a blanket position, like, oh,
you've got to earn your way up, you got to
pay your dues. I think there's, as you know, Joe
better than anybody, there's so much information and there's so
many hands in the kitchen helping prepare the meal that
(23:56):
running the show yourself doesn't happen. So there's all kinds
of now run prevention and run production, peeple assistant coaches, strategists.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You name it.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
There's all kinds of different titles now that I think
the number one quality now for a manager is leadership.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
It's an old school word, I get it.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
But Craig Stammon is a guy who knows everybody in
that clubhouse and they do have respect for him, so
he does start with that. So I'm not ruling out
these guys without experience. I'm not one to say, well,
what about all those guys managing TRIPAA for the last
ten years and they're not getting their shot.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I feel for them, believe me.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
But if you're a leader and you show that I
don't have a problem with some of these hires just
on the fact that they don't have experience.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Yeah, well, as you're going through all that, and you're
right on the money as usual, I'm jotting down certain
qualities in life. I think through the years have become
kind of archaic. I think experience is almost arriving at
the archaic point. I think wisdom has been downgraded, and
I think Field there's probably the one that really has
(25:06):
been kicked off the side of the boat already. These
things have become archaic meeting they're not necessary, and I
think the more we rely on math, where I a
AI is taking over, that really renders a lot of
these human qualities as being useless, not necessary, as maybe
not necessarily useless, because like I said, I think in
(25:28):
this World series, you saw where David and John had
to really push themselves to like really rely on their o,
their history, their their baseball experience. They get through different moments,
but overall, I think the way the world is trending,
and not just baseball, these are kind of qualities that
nobody's looking for anymore, and they don't really want them.
(25:49):
You're talking about vote Voter. I'll tell you this for sure.
I had Steven. I had Voter when he started out,
when Voter was just a minor league player.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
And.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
He was really in the meetings of this guy's an
a ball guy. Tops he can hit a little bit,
he can't. I mean, I'm telling you all this because
I didn't know this, because this was what I was
being told. But whenever we needed somebody to come over
to the big league team to fill a spot during
the spring training game, we would ask for Voter. Voter
would come over, put him out in front of everybody.
He'd tell a joker to and he had this really
(26:20):
ingratiating personality. So it's really obvious from the beginning. Yeah,
he could lead based on his personality, great listener, and
tremendous sense of humor. Different cat leadership today, I don't
even know. Again, we've talked about this. What is leadership
today and what does that mean? I think a lot
of it has to do with pr and media ability.
(26:41):
Guys that really speak well could handle themselves front of
a microphone and a group. I think that is where
we're terming his leadership anymore. That's become really popular. I mean,
think about the old guard of managers, and even like
you can even go to Belichick. I guess he's a
great leader, right, but really not a very good communicator publicly,
(27:01):
Geene Mock. You know, they disdain they hated the microphone there,
And I could go through a whole bunch of different
dudes that were considered great managers that didn't like all
that stuff. But their leadership came from their their knowledge,
their their experience, their feel for the game, their wisdom.
That's what was really considered necessary at one point, where
today it's like void, you don't need this. We have
(27:23):
artificial intelligence, we have all this math. All we need
you to do is speak well. And like you're kind
of suggesting keep this clubhouse in order, and I don't
even know what that means. I don't know if that's
acquiescence to what the group wants necessary? Is that necessarily
going in there and trying to enact what you perceive
to be teaching these guys the right way to act?
(27:45):
What does it mean to be a pro and how
do you remain a pro? Or are you constantly catering
to their needs? So that's what I don't know. So anyway,
the endgame, what is the endgame with all this. I'm
not quite sure, but right now it's not just baseball.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Man.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
You just elected a mayor in New York City. That's what,
thirty some years old, and then his right hand person
she's I think thirty four years old. I mean experience
in all the years of failure are not important anymore
in regards to all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
And I think social media has a lot to do
with this. It does.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
I'm not making a determination good or bad, but all
these things are a part of where we have arrived
at at this particular moment, and we'll say what's good
or bad as you'll only know how good they are
when they're thrust into situations when things go sideways, when
things go poorly. Right now, this is all honeymoon stuff,
and so we'll see.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
A couple to follow up on your points there.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
On leadership, you're right, I think running the clubhouse is
super important, especially with superstar players. What that means, I'm
not sure, other than that you better have the confidence
of that superstar player because if he don't, he can
poison other players against the manager. The other thing on leadership,
to me now, Joe is managing up, not just managing
superstar players, but managing up to the front office. That's
(29:07):
a skill set that has probably job number one Stammond's
got that He's worked with Aj Pereller, worked with ownership,
been in all those meetings. Very comfortable for them to
hire someone who already knows the systems and knows them
on the upper management level. That's super important experience. You're
absolutely right, Joe. I always tell people all the time,
(29:27):
is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
The knowledge you can get on Wikipedia, you can get
on AI. Wisdom you can get only with the passage
of time and being put in certain situations, especially uncomfortable ones,
where you come out the other side with something you
never had before. And you're right. We saw that in
the World Series. Both John Snyder and Dave Roberts I
thought were great, and John was very honest and telling
(29:52):
me that he wasn't that way when he first started out.
He was trying to manage to please other people, and
he realized, I have to be myself, and he was
the best manager he's ever been this year because he
was honest with himself about doing it his way.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
That's why I like it.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
For instance, what Washington has done with Utera there at
thirty three years old. His bench coach has got named
Michael John's. He's fifty years old. He's had more than
two decades in baseball. He's a minor league manager for
nine years. Is that the major leagues? No, But dude's
a baseball lifer in his fifties who's been there, done that.
So I like the idea, if you're going to hire
(30:28):
these guys without experience, make sure you've got a right
hand man, woman, whoever next to him in the dugout,
who has been there, done that. So I don't discount
experience and wisdom when it comes to hiring that manager,
but you know, I need to have it in my staff.
(30:49):
I can't just go all you know, first timers out
there running things and living with their mistakes.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
First of all, Michael Johnson hit a two iron, he
crashes it off the tee.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
I know him, I play golf with him.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
He's good, very strong guy. Obviously, I guess the same
page is always good. I mean meaning that hiring proller,
hiring somebody that he's comfortable with, that's that's obviously a
good thing, or a shared philosophy that's a good thing,
but I always I always want a contrarian or two around.
Perfect example, when I was with the Angels and I
got there, and when Sosh took over, he brought in
(31:25):
a lot of his former teammates, including ron Rennicky, who
became a very good major league manager. Raggs was a
contrarian and in all the best possible ways, only because
he's a brilliant baseball mind, and he would challenge you constantly,
or challenge anybody.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Our meetings were raucous. I'm telling you me.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
Buddy Black Pepe, Mickey Hatcher, Primo, Alfredo Rags, that's Ronnie Rennicky,
and of course Sosia himself. My god, I mean, be prepared.
It's it's like sitting at the dinner table with Uncle
Rick back in the day. My uncle Rick was a
doctor and he would challenge everybody sitting at that dinner
table every night, and you better be prepared to defend
(32:05):
your position. Or having Bob Elucid at that of the table,
Bob clear, that's what you need.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
See I don't see that enough.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
I mean, I know that's not it's true, because you know,
my last couple of years, even with the Cubs, and
then with the Angels, that contrarian opinion is not there.
It's always everybody's acquiescent. Everybody's always in agreement. And if
you are a contrary in a belief system, that only
occurs at the water cooler. In other words, if I
disagree with whomever and you're in the same room there
(32:35):
and any other questions, any other comments, nobody says.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Anything, you walk out.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
Then immediately I find tommy Erducci and I say, listen,
I don't agree with this at all, but it's the
water cooler moment. Whereas it should have been said in
the room. I want a room that says it right here,
right now. Tell me straight up, you do with respect.
You don't call anybody an idiot. I mean, you know,
you know it's not pugilistic, but it has to be
(33:02):
like verbally pugilistic. It's an argument on thoughts and ideas
and beliefs. It's necessary to be great. And I don't
think a lot of these places get that because everybody's afraid.
And I would, really, I mean, that would be like
the first thing I did when he Stephen run the
minor leagues for the angel in the eighties, and I
have like Johnnie McNamara sitting out there, and Bobby Gritch
sitting out there, and Dave Garcia sitting out there, all
(33:25):
these former major league guys, and I'm like, I don't know,
thirty years old, I'm at the age of these guys,
and I'm running the minor league system, and I'm putting
my stuff out there, and I got to be able
to defend what I'm saying in front of these dudes,
because these guys are definitely not going to tell you
what you want to hear. So that's the part that
I don't know that's paid enough attention to. I don't
think it's valued anymore because everybody wants acquiescence. Nobody wants
(33:48):
the real important contrarian just to stir it up a bit,
to make sure that we're not missing anything and that
we're not just permitting the power to go into this
one area. Listen, just because you're the head guy doesn't
mean you're really good at what you do.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Trust me so well said, I'm glad you brought that up.
It made me think of two things.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Number One, Ragga's got himself another ring, and I'm sure
he's doing the same thing with the Dodgers. Yeah, you know,
he's not a guy who's gonna, you know, own the room,
but he's gonna speak up if he sees something. And
I think his wisdom means a lot to the LA Dodgers.
And then you made me think of Zim with Joe Tory.
Was there any better combination than that? And Zim would
(34:27):
always bring up things in the course of a game
that hey, you think about starting the runner here, Hey
who you got in the bullpen coming up next? And
sometimes Joe would say, no, this is what I'm doing.
But he made Joe Tory think outside the box and
maybe think of things that maybe didn't come to his mind.
And they had such a great relationship that you can
be a contrarian without any kind of cost of personal cost,
(34:47):
like I can't believe this guy's going against me, Like
it's it's something that I guess some guys don't want.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
But that's a.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Healthy relationship and a working relationship and a dugout Joe. Finally,
let's get to this is Awards week, by the way,
and the big one's coming up Thursday, the American League MVP.
I want to know who you between Cal Rawley and
Aaron Judge, because I've been all over Judge as the MVP,
because when you break down the actual numbers, they're actually
not that close. I know that that Cal had more
(35:16):
home runs and more RBIs, I get that, folks, But
when you look at everything across the board, we never
had a hitter who won the batting title and he
wanted to buy a lot. By the way, he was
what more than twenty points ahead of everybody else in
baseball with batting average, who also had fifty three home runs,
the most home runs ever buy a batting champion. So
but then I watched Cal in the postseason man and
(35:37):
actually watching him play every day for the Mariners, taking
foul balls and running mound visits and running the game,
and you know, he caught more innings than anybody in
the American League this year.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I started to truly value what people were talking about.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Not that I didn't appreciate it, but I a deeper
appreciation for what he does on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
It's a great debate.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
It's going to continue once the announcement is made Thursday night.
I think Aaron Judge is going to win. I'm not
sure of that, but I think the voters are going
to go with the guy with the better numbers across
the board. Give me your take, Joe on who you
got Aaron Judge cal Raley.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Yeah, and first of all, the voting's done before the postseason, correct,
That's all right, But I brought that up. Yeah, what
are we voting on?
Speaker 3 (36:21):
What is? What are we voting on?
Speaker 4 (36:23):
The best numbers, the most impactful guy for the team
during the course of the season, the.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Most complete game. What are you voting for?
Speaker 4 (36:33):
If it's just based on numbers, You're probably right. I
think overarching Judge woulout do rally in some ways with that. Obviously,
the on base and everything else was ridiculous. And again,
but then again take just take out the intentional walk
sometimes I would be curious. I don't even know what
that does with the numbers overall.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
But I just just but.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
I'm sure Raley received his royal treatments on occasion too.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
But I don't know if I'm biased.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
I think I am, having played the position and to
do what Rawley did offensively and those numbers that he
put up there offensively and squat back there all year
like he did, and all the work that he did.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Before the game.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
The way he split his time, and the depth with
which this team went into the postseason, and again I
know postseason doesn't count, but all of those things into consideration.
As a baseball player, what he did there that's really
not just unusual, it's never happened. I don't think right
everything that he had done, and you could almost like
(37:34):
talk about, you know how we talk about showhy doing
things that have never been done, and judges numbers are spectacular,
but I think they've kind of been done, especially from
an outfield. He's been hurt a little bit, you know,
he came back slowly partial DH.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
I'm not blaming him for being hurt.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
But I think overall Rawley's performance as a catcher, if
you've ever played the position, what he did not only
on gott numerically, but to play every day, to stay healthy,
to play with the enthusiasm that he does, the importance
of the game, the amount of work he does before
the game, the way he impacts it during the game.
(38:12):
There's no real equation, there's no mathematical equation. I'd never
learned that one in algebra algebra three trig which I
was really bad at. So I just think Rawley, if
you could put it all together, and if you really
wanted to break it down, I give him a slight
edge over Judge.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, you think about last year, Bobby Witt Junior had
one of the greatest offensive seasons ever for a shortstop,
didn't win the MVP. Cal Rawley to me had the
greatest offensive season ever for a catcher. I'm probably all
around because he is a premier defender as well, and
he might not win the MVP. It just goes to
show you that Aaron Judge is this generation's babe Ruth.
(38:48):
I mean, he's that far out in front in terms
of being and I can't even say just the slugger anymore, Joe.
He's just a great hitter who is head and shoulders
above really everybody else for this run that he's on
for these years, not just twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
I think it's gonna be a close vote.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
As I said, I think, knowing what I know about
voters and what you just said about numbers across the board,
if it becomes a math exercise, a Judge is gonna win.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
There's I'm appealing to the non mathematical part of anybody's
brain right now. I'm just learning to on the human
side a little bit, but the other part, and I
still believe there's there's the East Coast bias. There's no question,
not everybody saw Raley do all this stuff all year
except for videos a lot of time. I mean there's that,
and I mean Aaron Judge is he's wonderful, what a
(39:38):
great guy, and so it is Rawleigh. But I actually
had conversation with Aaron Judge, is.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
All of that.
Speaker 4 (39:44):
He should be the captain, he should be the face
of the Yankees, he should be almost the face of baseball,
which he is with show. Hey, I think there's you know, simultaneously,
if they could do like a two headed poster, you'd
have both guys back to back.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Somehow they are and that's he deserves it, He's earned it.
He is all of that.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
But I mean, I guess my bias is based on
the fact that I've done some of what Rawley did.
Listen not trusts me what he did, like I said,
playing every day to that level at that position and
then take it over to the offensive side. That's the
part that to me is the tipping point and why
I would put him over the top.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Hey, we're going to take a quick break on the
Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
When we get back, we need to talk about a
certain pitcher who was announcing his retirement, and I cannot
wait to hear how Joe Madden celebrates the end of
Kyle Hendricks's career.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
We'll do that. Pray happiness, Welcome back to the Book
of Joe.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Kyle Hendricks is calling it a career after three hundred
and one starts on the major league level. One five
and ninety one is his record. But of course he's
going to be remembered, as you know, one of the
most consequential Cubs pitchers of all time.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
And he did it in such.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
A way, you know, with humility and class and a
master of changing speeds. I'm not sure I've ever seen
anybody who can do so many things with a change
up in terms of a guy as a hitter, knowing
it's coming but not really sure which way it's going
to break and at what speed.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
It's just a.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Master at manipulating the baseball and making it do what
he wants. Here's a note for you, Joe on Kyle
Hendricks in his last season pitching for the Angels. He's
from southern California, so some way he was going back home.
He allowed the lowest exit velocity in baseball. He was
tied with Hunter Brown and Trek Skubell, two Cy Young
(41:54):
Award finalists, for the lowest average exit velocity. In other words,
at the end of his career, Kyle Hendricks was still
fooling hitters and moving the ball off the barrel of
the bat. Just an amazing pitcher. And of course, Joe,
I'm sure like the rest of us, you probably think
immediately about twenty sixteen and what he did in the
(42:17):
postseason through eleven innings in the World Series with is
one earned run at one point four to two eer
throughout that postseason. So Flora is yours, Joe, Kyle Hendrix,
knowing that he's his major league career is over, what
comes to your mind?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
We really laid it up pretty well there.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
First of all, this guy is quality at Dartmouth boy
Huntingdon Beach. What a great conversation that you talk about,
the consummate team player. On top of all that, I mean,
there was times, you know, in the National League game,
I had to take him out of the game, maybe
going into the sixth inning, and it's won nothing because
as that bat came up in a crucial moment.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Okay, I got it.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
You know, he didn't like it, he never liked it,
but he was class see about it, and he did
what he what you're supposed to do in that moment.
And so first of all, you have to understand this guy.
The word class I think is thrown around way too easily,
way too often, and it should be reserved really for
special people. Kyle's a special person. I love the fact
(43:21):
that you talk about the ex adilo. That was a
big part of our twenty sixteen season.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
And that's the part where when you want, if you want.
Speaker 4 (43:30):
Your defense to play big, get pitchers that don't let
the other team hit the ball hard.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
That's where defense plays big.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
So when you reduce sex of velocities off the other team,
your shortstop gets greater range, your second basemen, everybody gets
greater range.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
And that's what he did. I mean, we played our.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Butts off on defense when this guy pitched. And just
because we're talking about the ball is never squared up.
It was hard to square him up. It almost looks
like a whiffle ball from the side. And I'm going
to make a prediction right now. I this guy is
a good golfer, so he's going to go play a
lot of golf. Good golfer, but he'd be the perfect
guy for somebody to talk to, like a real contending
(44:08):
team for next year going into the season, almost like
what the a Phillies did with Robertson coming back as
relief pitcher Late, who actually saw him at a tunnel
the Towers Golf tournament earlier this year before he ends
up pitching for the a Phillies Late. I think, Kyle,
if I'm a contending team into next year, maybe the Dodgers,
I would speak to him now going into this offseason
(44:31):
at some point, putting that in the back of his
mind if he would consider doing something like that, because
that would be the perfect scenario for him, I think,
and I wouldn't run away from that if he was
open to it. Kyle Hendrix, I look at the gun
first inning. Sometimes I'd see eighty four on his fast
and go okay, because because because it was like when
(44:53):
it got to be eighty four, there wasn't a big
difference between that and his change in velocity wise, and
that would be concerned if I saw eighty six, eighty seven,
eighty eight, I was really having.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
A nice game.
Speaker 4 (45:04):
This is gonna be nice because there's that discrepancy between
fastball and change up. The other thing about him, I've
never seen so many hitters take a called strike against
the pitcher and like, look the off balance and never
argue it. I mean that come back two seamer that
he threw outside edge to righty's that would come back,
(45:27):
or the inside front hip guide to the to the
lefties take it. They would just take it like a man,
never argue. The umpire has got it right. They know
he's coming and they would still be surprised by it.
He was just He's just a different cat. Wonderful. Like
I said, wonderful dude. But if I'm I don't know again,
the Dodgers or somebody like even maybe the Padres, I
(45:50):
don't know, somebody in that and particularly in that neck
of the wood San Francisco. If you think you're going
to be in it at the end of next year,
talk to this guy.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
Now.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
That is a great idea.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
I had not thought of that, but he made me
think of Pedro Martinez in two thousand and nine with
the Phillies wound up pitching.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
The World Series for him.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Tell me what you remember, Joe about one of the
most important games in Cubs history that Kyle pitched, the
clinching National League Pentic coaching game against the LA Dodgers.
He took the ball into the eighth inning, allowed two hits,
no runs, no walks, and six strikeouts.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
As a manager, that was like the most privileged game
I've I think I've ever been involved in. We played,
I mean, as close to a perfect baseball game as
can be played. We did the Cubs and then with him,
I mean that was against Kershaw, I believe right and
in he he being Kyle is unflappable.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
He just is.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
I don't care what the moment is, what's going on
around him. He's always the same dude. So you don't
you don't even worry about that is there's never going
to be this moment that gets too quick for him.
He'll always be able to rein it in. So the
point about that game for me, was such a big
game for us in the history of the the Cubbies,
(47:10):
is that he was he was Kyle.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
He was the same.
Speaker 4 (47:12):
It's no different than that night he had a no
hitter going in Saint Louis into the ninth inning, where
I had to get Chapman up real quick and then
I get kicked out of the game.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
By Joe West.
Speaker 4 (47:22):
I mean when Kyle Hendricks gets on a on a
run and that thing is working, and you see these
bat takes by the hitters and just like talking about
the weak contact because it's effortless. I mean, that's the
other thing about him with like arm strength and not
getting injured off and it's an effortless kind of a
delivery that he has. And he says he's a perfectionist.
(47:45):
So that to me as a manager in the years
that I've done, that possibly one of the most perfect
games that I was involved with.
Speaker 3 (47:53):
Just stay out of the way and let these guys go. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
I used to say watching Kyle throw with that he
had a very unique way of setting his wrist behind
him throwing a baseball. To me, it looked like guy
throwing a paper plane, right, Okay, just a lack of effort.
It seemed like, I know it wasn't, but just was
a pleasure to watch pitch. How about this Joe in
(48:16):
that World Series and give theo Epstein a lot of credit.
And I wrote a lot about this in my book
The Cub's way where he built this team around drafting
and developing position players because they set the tone, they
set the whole culture of a team. They're literally everyday players.
And he was able to acquire pitching. Joe, you used
(48:37):
eleven pitchers in the World Series. None of them were homegrown, right,
including of course Kyle Hendrix was obtained that trade. You know,
Jake Arietta, John Lackey, John Lester, up and down the line.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
How about that?
Speaker 1 (48:52):
And not a pitch was thrown by a homegrown Cub
the twenty sixteen World Series.
Speaker 4 (48:57):
Well, that was part of the concern at that point,
that the Cubs were not nurturing their own pitching.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
That was it.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
But like you said, intentionally, it was all based on
getting the offensive players.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
In their shore.
Speaker 4 (49:07):
Bra had a pretty good impact, Bias had a great impact.
KB did, of course, so control us all the homegrown
age excuse me, Cubs players definitely made an impact, But
there was a time there. I think it's gotten a
little bit better, but there was not a whole lot
of homegrown pitching done back there. So he did THEOGA
did a nice job of bringing guys in there, a
(49:29):
lot of experienced guys too, and putting, you know, right
down to the bullpen, getting a rolled this like we did.
I think that was for Glibor Taurus going into that
World Series. You know, Pedro Strope loved me, Si Pedro
stropector run Don and of course Mike Montgomery he even knew,
right And who even knew about Carl Edwards Junior. Who
(49:49):
knew that these guys would be that impactful.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 4 (49:53):
I mean, these are the kind of guys you find
out during the latter part of the year, during September,
we were getting this whole thing like kind of I
don't want to say wrapped up, but in good shape.
These are the guys who were like the most aramend
out of the bulletpenper Carl Montgomery and I think the
left the left hand or Travis Wood. Yeah, thank you Travis,
(50:14):
My god, what a beautiful man. So yeah, it's you
just never know, You just never know. But that is
like wonderful scouting. And uh, like I said, Jake Carriot,
which was better than that. So a great job of
putting a piece of it together.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yes, well we've reached the ninth ending of this latest
episode of the Book of Joe. You always bring us home,
Joe with some words of wisdom. We've been all over
the map today. What do you got to finish this
off today?
Speaker 4 (50:40):
I thought I had it, but you made I mean,
I've made me shift gears and I got two things.
Actually the one I had was by James Baldwin. I
read James Baldwin. I was in college, a Native son,
and I love and it's about experience. So you know,
we're talking about experience, and this is my first thought. Uh,
(51:01):
take no one's word for anything, including mine. He wrote,
but trust your experience. And wow, I mean that's not
even just talked about it. That's not even that's almost
becoming archaic. Then in a verbal I heard him talking about,
you know, somebody that was trying to put him in
a corner. He says, I am not your label. The
label belongs to you, not to me.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
God did I love that? And it's true.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
I mean, every time, you know, somebody tries to pin
a definition on you, just defining yourself. Man, when you
start attempting to label somebody else, you're really talking about
you and which your worries are, on, which how you
define life, et cetera. So that was the James Baldwin
side of it. That's what I began with. But then
you're talking about the contrarian stuff, talking about Ron Renike's
(51:48):
of the world. And I read this in a book
not a one hundred percent sure it might have been
a Wayne Dyer situation, and I think it was like
more like an ancient Chinese proverb or something to that effect,
or something in Zen philosophy, but talking about teaching or teachers,
and it came down to this point, and I love this.
(52:09):
I can't teach you anything, but it could only make
you think. That's what a great teacher does. I remember
for years Bob Clear Babaloo in our book, The Book
of Joe bob Aloo would just piss me off, and
then he would say, I'm just trying to get you
to think a little bit, you know, And so eventually
I read that passage and all we can think about
(52:30):
is bob Aloo. So trust your own experience, and if
you start trying to label people, realize you're just defining yourself.
Speaker 3 (52:39):
And lastly, I can't teach you anything, but I can
make you think.
Speaker 4 (52:43):
And I think if you get that person on your
staff that is such an invaluable person to have.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
Oh great stuff. I love that, Joe, especially about labels.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
I look at labels and boundaries and I think those
things are lazy and they're artificial. I have no use
for them, and I would never apply it to myself,
so why would I apply it to anybody else.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
I'm glad you brought that up. And uh and yeah, contrarians,
we need them.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Yeah right, And I admire people who don't have to
be the smartest person in the room, who know what
they don't know, and surround themselves with people who can
complete them.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Agreed.
Speaker 4 (53:21):
I mean that's uh yeah, Like I said, Ronnie Rennick
is the motivation for that thought for me right now,
along with bab Aloo.
Speaker 3 (53:29):
But I'm telling you, Rags is really sharp.
Speaker 4 (53:31):
Rags is well read, and he he he is so
classic old school because if you do he is, he's
right up there with Baba Loo and uh Ronnie Platt
and uh Carl Keel and you know, Jimmy le Fever
and I could keep going on and on. If you
don't want to hear the answer, don't don't let don't
(53:54):
ask the question, man, because they're gonna tell.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
You exactly what they think. They are truth tellers. And
God do I love the truth Tellers? Oh, we love it. Joe.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Great stuff. We'll see you next time on the Book
of Joe.
Speaker 3 (54:05):
See your brother, Thanks man.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
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