December 23, 2025 • 45 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci discuss the recent trade of Willson Contreras to the Boston Red Sox, exploring his potential impact and the dynamics of the Red Sox roster. It's a competitive landscape in the AL East,what are the strengths and weaknesses of the teams? Luke Weaver signs with the Mets and we touch on the evolving role of relief pitchers in today's game. Tom notes Adrian Houser switching to the Carnivore diet, could Joe stick to that menu?
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey Aaron, Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts.
I am Tom Berducci with Joe Madden and Joe. I
want to start with one of your former world champion
Chicago Cubs, Wilson Contreras gets traded to the bust In
Red Sox. You know him, Well, it looks like he's
going to play first base. I think he's catching.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Days are over.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
What first jumped out at you when you heard the
Red Sox had picked up Contreras from the Saint Louis Cardinals.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Well, first of all, I mean I love Wilson. I
still believe you can catch. I haven't seen it in
a while. But there was a lot of I don't know,
almost like force him into the situation conversationally whatever. But
he's the first base But I could hit. I know
is he didn't quite reach an eight hundred oho ps
last year, but the guy can hit. I think that ballpark.
(01:01):
Although when he's really doing well, I like him in
the middle of the field a post of trying to
pull the ball, So I prefer I hope that that
wall doesn't influence him a little bit. But Wilson plays
hard every day required attention. He's just so emotional. He
was always so emotional, and but I love them for it.
I mean he was. I used to tell him, you're
(01:21):
the guy we plug into. As he said, You're like
a socket on the wall. We need to plug into
your energy every night. So he would. He would get
a little bit upset at things on occasion. I think
he's outgrown that a bit, but energy great. We had
a wonderful relationship. I still one of the finest throwing
arms I've had as a catcher. Really worked hard to
understand game plans and apply himself. A lot of the
(01:44):
issues were based on the way metrics are considered today,
receiving the ball, those kind of evaluations, which again i'd
have to sometimes the catcher's first, sometimes he's lost the
next year. It's just crazy. But I'm a Willie fan.
I love Willie. I hope he kills it up there.
I hope he stays in the middle of the field mentally,
(02:06):
and who knows, it might even sticking behind the plate
at some point if necessary, because you could a kid
is like when he's hitting well. As a catcher, that's
a pretty special position.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think some of the defensive shortcompanis, if you will,
because his hands.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Are a little active back there.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
He's not necessarily quiet, but maybe those got overplayed a
little bit. I would at least talk to him about
it and see if his heart's still in it, and
I at least have the option that even if he's
my third catcher, you know that he's usable at some point,
if not on a majority basis. But love the bat
with you. Great point you made about him being emotional.
(02:43):
I think in a good way that suits really well
in a place like Boston. Boston's going to hold you accountable,
and I think he really likes that. I love the
fire that he brings in a place like Boston. I
think that really plays. I think the fans are going
to like him, and he can always hit. And you're
right too about the pole side. I don't necessarily see
him as a pole side hitter. He shouldn't change his
(03:05):
game just because it's inviting over there. But listen, that's
a good deal for the Boston Red Sox. And there's
only two teams in baseball that have not signed a
free agent this offseason so far, Colorado Rockies and Boston
Red Sox. They have been heavy on the trade market,
and just ironically, I don't think there's a reason for this.
They went to Saint Louis a couple of times where
(03:27):
Hein Bloom is there former Red Sox GM, and to
Pittsburgh with Ben Charrington former Boston GM.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
But this one really worked out. Listen.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
They got the Cardinals to kick in some money here,
which usually means, you know, you put in some higher
level prospects. So Contraras is under contract for the next
two years, that between seventeen and eighteen million dollars. That's
a really good deal for the Boston Red Sox and
they still have money to make at least one big
move here. And to me, that's either got to be
Bregman or Bishett. With the possibility of a Tell Martee trade,
(04:01):
I still think Bregman is the best fit here. I'm
a little curious as to all these parts that the
Red Sox have. Joe, and they have a ton of
position players. I don't think they have enough at bats
for the number of position players that they have. You know,
when you think about Christian Campbell, Tristan Cassis, Romy Gonzalez,
David Hamilton, Nick Sogard, Marcello Mayer, even Durant and a
(04:22):
Brady in the outfield, Yoshida seems like a fifth wheel here.
You know, they have moves to make. I just don't
I have to wait and see where the next domino
is going to fall here. If it's not Bregman or Bashett,
you know, I don't know where they go. What's your
feeling about what completes this roster here in Boston?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Well, yeah, Bregman always fits for me. But I'm a
big Marte fan, I really am. They're not. Are they
talking about Mishett a shortstop? Is that part of it? No?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I don't think so. I think he would be second
base Marte. Yeah, I'm with you. It's funny. And one
day I was talking to Dave Roberts about Marte and
he said, from the right side, he scares him more
than any right handed hitter, including Aaron Judge. I like, whoa, Now,
there's six years left on that deal. But he does
seem like he's the kind of guy even if he
(05:10):
can't play second base, he's always going to hit.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
He is another high energy guy. I've liked him from
the beginning. We started with Seattle correct wasn't at Seattle. Yeah,
I liked him even when I first began, when I
first saw him, Bregman, you know, Bregman's a winner. He's
been proven to be a winner. He's got that, you know,
that that killer's mentality where he just seems to be
in the same headspace all the time. Never really looks
(05:35):
like he's not an up and down kind of a guy.
Just stay with him. If he's not playing, we'll just
stay with it. He'll turn it around. I've always loved
him for that short swinging. I think he is built
for that ballpark there, the way he can pull the baseball.
He's right center when he's good, and when he played
in Houston and that was dangerous because he made a
mistake away take advantage of the porch and right center.
(05:56):
But I think overall, his his his makeup, his personality
plays well in Boston. But I also do like Marte
a lot too, Son and then Bushett. Of course, if
you're gonna plaim at second base, okay I would. I
would not put them a sure stuff, especially there. But
you're talking about all these different players, it just sounds
(06:16):
to me, and again, you probably know better than I
like They're always searching for a platoon advantage. You know,
the folks that are running the Red Sox right now
are highly into all that stuff, and so I would
I would wonder how often the conversation UH trends to
hit in the direction of let's create platoon advantages all year.
(06:38):
I think they like to give Alex a bunch of
stuff to work with. So I don't know to what
extent that is part of this glut of positional players,
or like you said, are they just looking to trade
somebody whatever. But if I I would go Bregman first,
Marte second, and then eventually Bo. So I like Bo
a lot, but I mean those two guys. I might
just been such a huge fan of Martey from the beginning.
(07:01):
And like I said, I think Bregman's a winner.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, I mean, I see Brankman's got a really good market.
I love the fit as well in Boston. You know,
he just kills it in that ballpark as he did
in Houston. And he's a team leader. He's a glue guy,
there's no question about it. He's the guy you want
on your team. Obviously other teams want him. So it's
not going to be easy whether he gets a five
or a six year deal. I think it's the market
(07:23):
is going to determine that he's a good fit for
the Blue Jays. They're in it, the Cubs may be
in it. There's talk about the Diamondbacks. He lives out
there in Arizona. Whether they could win a bidding war
with those other teams. I questioned that, But they're in it,
and his team should be in it. This guy's a
really good player, great defender, and again he's one of
(07:47):
the few guys I think you look at and you say,
one of the upsides here is we're getting a guy
who's going to be a leader on our team no
matter where he plays.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
He is, He's Joe.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
He's one of those guys to me, when I talk
to him, sees the game at a different level. Like
he's the guy in the bench you can see if
a pitcher has a tell. He's a guy who can
pick out patterns the way they're pitching to guys.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
He's just one of those guys.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
He's got so much he's such a baseball rat and
such shared information. You know the benefit you're getting from
him is going to be better than what you get.
And you look at what his ops is, right, he's
lefties and those kinds of numbers. He's so valuable beyond
the numbers.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
You know. And if I'm him, you know, going to
Chicago to play Wrigley or back to Fenway to play
in Boston is way more attractive than going to Arizona
to play at the Bob. I mean, so the Bob
to me, so, I you know, I know they've done
recently well. I guess if he does live there in
(08:46):
the off season, I understand the attractiveness of that. But
as a baseball freak, and that he is, you're talking
about a baseball junkie, I would believe he's going to
be attracted to cathedrals. I mean Fenway and Wrigley to
the best, Wriggley one, Fenway two. And then you got
the Rabbit fan bases, the Cubs losing Tucker looking to
(09:06):
rebuild somewhere else. Third base is a wonderful cornerstone always
to start with. And with the rest of that infield
there they got some gamers there at shortstop, Swanson and
of course Nico at second, and then Bush at first.
I mean it's kind of nice. I mean, I'd say
that almost would rival what we did in twenty sixteen,
so I could see where if i'm them the Cubs,
(09:27):
I have to make a strong bit on this one.
Hitting there maybe not as fun as Boston probably. I
mean the wind blows in so often that really people
have no idea. You get torch a ball the left
field and all of a sudden, the left fielder is
coming in on it. And there's days of pop up leaves.
But I think those are the days that are fewer
and farther between than the times that it's blowing out.
(09:48):
So just everything you're telling me about him, I've never
really spoken with him, but this is a baseball gym rat.
I would believe he's going to be attracted to either
Wrigley or Fenway.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, it comes have been fairly quiet red Sox, As
I mentioned, real on the trade front now with you know,
getting Sunny Gray and Johanno Vieto to go slop behind
Garrett Crochet and the rotation.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Brian Beyo is still there now.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
He's traded a bunch of prospects, but I think it's
been smart where he's held on to you guys like
Roman Anthony. Of course, I mentioned Mayor Christian Campbell, those
three top prospects are still there. So I think what
he's done is he said, listen, we're keeping our elite guys.
We're going to trade some of our volume of prospects,
which I like, I have no problem with that to
(10:35):
kind of figure out this major league team without getting
into really long term contracts. But I think the final
piece is going to have to be unless you traded
Duran or going to Bray you and you can get
a right handed hitting outfielder. I'm not sure who that
guy is right now in the market. I really do
think it's Bashett or Bregmant. So one more move for
(10:55):
the Red Sox in the American least. How do you
see the East right now, Joe, I know we're only no,
we're deep into the winter, but we're not finning products yet.
I think we're getting back to the days where, like
when you were at Tampa Bay Man, you got to
go into the season thinking you got to win more
than ninety games.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Yeah, Baltimore picked it up with the Lawns. And I
just read some things from Alonso today in the New
York Post, and I just like what he said and
how he said it. I don't again, I don't know
this hill. He's went to school like literally half a
block or so from where I'm living right now in Tampa,
and I planned high school. Never met him, like to
meet him. I just like what he said and how
we said it, you know, pretty much praised Baltimore without
(11:34):
integrating the Mets whatsoever. And he's eager. He's one of
those eager guys. And I think he's that ballpark's a
great fit for him. So all of a sudden, they're better.
The Blue Jays are just better based on what they
had done last year. The Yankees, you know, in spite
of all the times we talk about the shortcomings, they
still won ninety for four games last year, and the
Red Sox continued to ascend. And of course I believe
(11:57):
as I drive by the park every day, I see
the roof now on Tropicana, the roof looking good. So
I think once the get back into their confines, normal,
normal patterns, I think they're going to reascend again. So yeah,
it is. It's it's getting kind of dirty again. Where listen,
it was so much fun. It was so much fun.
(12:18):
That's how the Rays got good quickly by playing against
such wonderful competition, really good teams in very hostile territories
like Yankee Stadium at that time. Of course, Fenway was
always tough, and now again with Baltimore's pertinent, like when
Buck was there, it became very difficult. And the Blue
Jays always had good teams, always beat him somehow, but
(12:38):
the Blue Jays were always good. So I love it.
I love when the American League East is hot. It
was nothing better. I mean that's you know, meanwith coming
being raised by the Angels in the American League West,
which was also very good with you know, the Marriags
were good, the A's are good, we were good out
there was kind of a Texas was just always right
there too, to a certain extent. Great. But the AL East,
(12:59):
I just talked about the vibe, you know, the traditional
component of playing on the East Coast, which I think
is unmatched. That censor passed. So all of these things
are conspiring, I think to make it a very interesting year.
So when you say who's going to win the American
League East, it's almost it truly can be a toss up.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
No, I agree.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I think it's great for the game when teams have
to answer one another.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Especially Baltimore.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I thought Pete Alonzo would have been a great fit
for the Boston Red Sox. So good on the Orioles
to jump out and get a guy like that. We
mentioned the Yankees. They lost Luke Weaver. I take a
break right here, Joe, and we get back. I want
to talk about Luke Weaver, like many others these days,
crossing town to the New York Mets and what's happening with.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
The relief market.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Talk about that right after this on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Luke Weaver, free agent pitcher signs with the New York
Mets two years, twenty two million dollars, which is the
same contract, by the way, signed by Brad Keller with
the Philadelphia Phillies. And it's close to Ryan Helsley two
years twenty eight million, Emilio o Pagan two years twenty million,
been again with the Tigers two years nineteen million. You
(14:26):
get the point here. At my point here, Joe, is
that teams now are willing to pay a higher aav
for a relief pitcher, but they are staying away from years.
When you think about you know, the Tanner Scott four
year contract last year, going back a little farther, the
Mark Millanson's, the Jonathan Papple bonds. You know, it's so volatile,
as you know, Joe, that you know when relief pitchers pitch, well,
(14:49):
that means they get used a lot and then you
hit free agency. And I think you saw this last
year at Luke Weaver, like his workloads sort of caught
up with him. Not that he was overused, but to me,
and you know this a lot better than me, Joe,
when you pitch high leverage and and you know the
mental and physical grind of it, it's hard to repeat
that year after year after year.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
So let me start with Weaver. You know, was just
not the same at the end of the year.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Surprised the Yankees didn't bring him back, But they do
have Duval and they do have Bed and our guys
they picked up at the end of the season to
sort of replaced him. Are you thinking Weaver might be
a good pickup on a bounce back? And the whole
year wasn't bad, don't get me wrong. But where you
see Weaver right now as a late ending guy for
the New York Mets, Yeah, he.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Had a different look. I had been injured earlier that
last season too, right, he had had some kind of
an issue and he came back, he wasn't quite the
same or never really got into the swing of things.
I like it, I mean, I like the guy, And
just to go back to what you just talked about,
It's something I always spoke about with relief pictures in general.
And I always go back to the point that these
(15:51):
guys are held to an impossible standard being perfect or perfection.
There's a lot of emotional expenditures with bullpen pictures and
especially the high leverage guys in the major league level.
That's really hardly ever considered. And I always did. I
always consider the emotional expenditures going on too. Like I said,
you're not gonna run away from somebody if he's your guy.
(16:11):
But always used to keep like kind of track like
where's he at mentally and how and how does he
handle the bad moment? That's the biggest thing, because when
they when they just keep wrapping up games and nailing
it down. Of course they come to the ballpark, they're invincible,
But what's when the one moment occurs when things don't
go so well? How does he react to that? The
emotional expenditure, and then you might get too And I
(16:32):
talked about this too, how do you get him going again?
Where back then you could bring him in for an
out or two outs and not have to worry about
the three batter minimum kind of things. So there was
there's all these different dynamics going on now that I
think it's somewhat a little bit more difficult, and I'd
have to like actually do it to give you a
different opinion. But when a guy goes sideways, how do
you get him back? Well? So Weaver to me, I
(16:55):
like his stuff a lot. He just just seemed to
I don't know, he just he lost that killer looked
that he had the year before. But his stuff is
still good and it's going to play well, and I
think it's a good sign on the part of the Mets.
I do. Hell's me the same thing with Baltimore. I
saw this guy, and I know that we've talked about
him where his peripherrees don't look as good, you know,
(17:17):
ball and play ex of loss, these things like that,
But damn, I saw this guy throw the ball and
it was good stuff. And then Pegane and Keller again,
these are considered the elites right now in a sense,
and you know they're they're all coming in at the
same price tag. Everybody's viewing them the same. Their agents
know exactly how what's good, what's going to happen for them,
(17:37):
And you're talking about the shorter leash in regards to
the number of years all that stuff. It's just it's
another example of the industry and how one group copies
the other group. But nobody's willing to step out. Yes,
Scott had a bad year last year. I'm curious though,
with this year because this guy was really good for
a long period of time and the Dodgers have a
tendency to fix things. So long answer, but I really
(17:59):
like we were there. I like all those names. I
think bounce back years are in vogue for relief pictures
as long as they're healthy and well. And you got
to do all your work about that. You got to
talk to them. Where's their heads at? Talk to people
that were with them all last year? What do you
got somebody that you could trust their opinion? All that
stuff matters when you're taking a chance or an opportunity
like this.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
This is interesting. It may mean nothing, Joe, but I
want to get your opinion on this. Looking at there's
been four relief pitchers who signed contracts of three or
more years. Actually they're all three, but they're the only
ones that got more than two years. Alexis Diaz, Devin Williams,
Robert Suarez, Tyler Rodgers. What's interesting to me is think
about how all of them throw not a lot of effort.
(18:43):
I mean Diaz longstrider, low armslot, very athletic delivery, Devin
Williams same thing, Rogers same thing, super low and Swerez
easy going, kind of you know, ninety percent fastball diet.
To me, not essentially, you know, high impact, high energy
(19:04):
type of closer. Interesting to me that those are the
guys now, and I know that we back in the
day we thought of guys like Al Raboski and goose Gas.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
It is just the model of.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Relief pitchers, but kind of the athletic and not super
big guys throwing one hundred miles an hour like Helsley Is.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
They may be more repeatable models.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Maybe there's nothing to that, but I just find that
interesting that those guys are the ones that got more
than two years.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Well, are you describing people that noally don't get hurt. Also,
I mean among those guys.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
I think you're right about that. I think there's something
to that.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
And I think you yeah, I think the lower armstroke
saves an arm a little bit. Just think about you know,
even when it's used to throw all these BP I mean,
you don't want to throw from over the top. He
felt that strain on your shoulders. He would drop down
a little bit and try to gain command from a
little bit lower arm slot. And even watch some great
passers in football sometimes their arm isn't as high. It's
(19:58):
it's repeatable, it's less stress on that that joint up there.
And with these guys, like I said, I thought Williams
was getting too low. Maybe again, I don't know if
that was to something was bothering him he lowered it
down or again analytical influence. I'm not sure, But I
think the other part about that in normally is that
a guy could really ride a fastball from down there.
(20:20):
And then you talk about, well, Rogers just has more deception.
You got Williams with this crazy change up. Who else
did we say there?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I'm sorry, Robert Suarez.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, like you said, easy gas, that's easy gas, and man,
easy gas is always attractive as a scout when you
go out there and you watch, you know, easy gas.
Who's easy gas? Zach Wheeler's easy gas? Jacob de Grom,
although Jacob has been heard often, but easy gas. You
know you see guys like that. God does that turn
a scout on? So, I don't know. I think part
(20:50):
of their the allure there is the fact that analytically,
and I'm sure they got these these tests done or
they have this their little chart made regarding where a
guy throws the ball from and the likelihood of him
being injured might be less than somebody that has an
higher arm slot.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
So this is not a surprise to you.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
But I was looking at the total number of innings
that teams ask relief pitchers to cover now, because we
still have a lot of starting pitchers out there on
the market that has not developed as quickly as the
relief market. And it turns out that innings by relief
pitchers in twenty twenty five were up slightly in twenty
twenty four, actually down slightly from twenty three.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
So not a lot of variants, I would say, in
the last three years.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
But if you go back ten years, relief pitchers are
throwing almost twenty seven hundred more innings in just a
ten year period. That's an eighteen percent jump. Now, eighteen
percent of your twenty eight outs or twenty seven outs
are going to be four or five outs a game.
So what we're asking relief pitchers to do, you know,
(21:53):
increasing on an increasing basis at least the last ten years.
That's significant. You're talking about eighteen percent more innings. It's
a lot of innings to cover.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Uh, you sit in the dugout, I've wreched. I'm writing
things that right. I mean seems like you know, on
a nightly basis, when you're having to go to the
pen early nightly man, you better have some even ahead guys.
You have to have almost the entire group has to
be even ahead, meaning you'd like to use these guys
when the score is tied or your head. There's also
(22:22):
the small deficits that you want to maintain, especially when
you have a decent offense. But when you have that
many innings to cover on a nightly basis, it really
is it's hard. I mean, unless you just have this
superior group of relief pictures. In today's world, the superior
group of relief pictures are considered guys that throw really
(22:43):
hard and could misbats. That's probably the definition of a
superior relief picture right now, although you just mentioned a
couple that mispats in another way or create week contact.
I'm miss telling you. Man, on a nightly basis, when
you get guys going five innings and sometimes less than
five innings over the course of maybe three, four, five
days in a row, your bullpen is just dragged, tongues
(23:04):
hanging out, and it stinks because when you're in the
dugout man, you don't want to hurt anybody. You don't
want to get anybody hurt. But then again, the game's closed,
you're trying to win the game, and it's important in
the ebb and flow of the season, and you got
to use people more often than not. However, I know
from my personal experience there was times that before the
game would begin, the front office would tell you who's down,
(23:26):
who you're not permitted to use that night. We got
to that point and because there's all there's the ability
to bring guys up take guys down, which is when
you have those the optionable relief pictures, which is also
a very valuable asset to have. Then you could front
office wise, you could choose to give guys rest, knowing
(23:47):
that you could put guys up and down. And so
that's like I always thought, you have to have at
wide at least eight or nine starting pitchers that you
really did dig on in order to complete a season.
And I don't even know what's considered the appropriate number
of relief pictures they have now between the group that
you have on a major league level and the group
that you're holding back on Triple A. So there's I
just know on a night by night basis, when it
(24:10):
comes down as strategical trying to win the game and
having an idea what's going to happen. And again I
just talked about impossible standard of perfection. It's hard to
ask your guys to go out there that often and
expect them to just nail it down that for that
many extra innings. That's crazy.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah, and this is expected.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
As relief pitchers pick up more innings, they're less effective.
I mean, the gap between hitting a starting pitcher and
a relief pitcher. It used to be much harder to
hit relief pitching now Actually the on base percentage is
higher against the relief pitching now. Their strikeout rate is higher,
the batting average is slightly lower, but you can win
the at bat more. We're talking about guys who don't
(24:49):
have the same kind of command, right. But it used
to be a bigger gap, I thought, where it was
so difficult to get anything off relief pitching. But the
gap has narrowed because they're they're asked to get more outs.
This is interesting to me too, Joe. What inning in
a ballgame do you think has the lowest batting average
and the lowest on base percentage, the least offense in
(25:11):
any inning in a major league game, not including extra innings.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
I would say it's kind of a middle inning. You know,
sometimes guys you know, you get off to they come out,
they break good, and things kind of settle in a
starting pitcher that might, you know, his first drive goes
into out of bounce and his first seven iron just
doesn't hit it quite right, and all of a sudden,
rhythm comes together and they find their rhythm. I'm saying
(25:36):
sixth inning.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Well, I think I like your theory, but you're off
on the inning because the toughest inning to hit in
the major leagues is the second inning.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Well, okay, I mean that is weird to me.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
First of all, Traditionally it's been in the last decade
or more the ninth inning, right, I mean, and I
realize you're not always playing the Bobby of the ninth,
so you may have fewer at bats, but you know, essentially,
if the game is close, you're not messing around with
the game. One of your best pictures is out there
at to but the second ending, I can't really explain
that other than what you just said about a picture
(26:10):
just kind of finding his stuff and the back half
of the lineup just not being as good as obviously
the top half.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
Yeah, I was just picture finding his stuff and then
the propensity to switch to another to a relief picture
right around that fifth or sixth inning. My point also
was that in the latter part of the game, if
the hitters have been asleep at all that night, they're
definitely gonna ramp it up late, especially when you're behind
by a runner too. I think there's just a higher
level of mental acumen among hitters as the game gets
(26:38):
deeper tighter behind a little bit, And not that anybody,
I'm not It's not an accusatory moment like I'm saying.
People don't care. That's not it at all. It's just
human nature. So that's that's what I was working off of,
that point where the starter gets better and then the
in today's world, the managers not concerned about going to
(26:58):
the pen earlier. You're going to get like this middle
part of the game there that hitters have to you know,
they they're just into that the flow of the game
in a sense where it's later in the year. Games
are going every night, every night, every night, and if
it's not going so well, you kind of your mental
acuity is not as high. But as soon as that
game gets late, man, I know that you got the closers,
(27:19):
but the hitters perk up a little bit too. So
it's interesting the second inning, like you said, probably because
it gets to this lower part of the batting order,
the pitchers somewhat fresh and maybe gets through his anxiety
in the first inning. But I still have I've always
I've always thought that the middle innings kind of sometimes
there could be a lull.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Offensively, well, I agree with your theory on the middle innings.
I think most games pivot around the fifth inning, and
that's why managers have to face that third time around
option you start making decisions on strategy generally around the
fifth inning. In today's game, maybe into the sixth. So
I like your thoughts on the middle innings. Now, the
question of what is the easiest or highest scoring inning
(28:00):
in the game, It's always been true the first inning.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
First, Yeah, I was gonna say that.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I mean, it's it's obvious, and it cracks me up
when I hear people talk all the time about somebody
out there in the first inning, this guy has trouble
in the first inning. How many times have you heard
that in a broadcast, This guy's got an eight e
RA in the first inning. Well, first of all, that's
such a small sample size. If you have one game
you give up three or four in the first inning,
you're not gonna have a good r in the first inning.
And second of all, why is it the highest scoring
(28:26):
inning in a game? Well, your lineup is optimized to
score the most runs the one time in the game
you control who's batting in an inning, So you're having
your best designed lineup batting in the first inning. It's
not a surprise. It always has been, always will be
first inning. So I don't want to hear about a
picture has trouble in the first inning, although some do.
(28:47):
I'm not ruling that out, but as a general rule,
the pictuer is facing the best hitters, who in the
lineup is maximized to score the most runs.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Well, that's you know, the flow of the game to
I'm tell you, there was I think really good pictures.
Sometimes those are the guys you might be able to
get early, just because of what I talked about my
golf and now you know the temple of your armstroke
just breathing well, I mean, regardless of how many years
you've pitched or played, you're still going to get that
charge of that batt I'm not saying that's anxiety. It's
(29:14):
like an over eagerness or excitement. That's you got to
be able to control and breathe in the moment all
those things happen, and that's sometimes where I think a
guy can make mistakes. But if you let him up
and he starts breathing right and all of a sudden
that tempo shows up, that's where guys get real dirty,
and that's when it becomes much more difficult. So I agree.
I mean, to me, you want to ambush as much
as you can early, and the way the lineups are
(29:37):
designed today as compared to in the past with lesser
leadoff hitters. Although Ricky Henderson was pretty good, lou Brock
was pretty good. Lou Brock would put a hurt on
you from the first that bat too, And that goes
back to the sixties. So it's it's interesting, and I
think a lot of it has to do, like you said,
better part of your lineup coming up quickly, and they
got to be ready for the first that bat while
(30:00):
a pitcher still trying to get into his rhythm of
the day. Like I'll tell you Matt Garza and I
had Maddie with the Rays. He had a great air force.
We went to the World Series. But if he came
out through that first fastball down angled ninety four at
the knise called strike, I was like, well, here we go,
because I knew he was in control of his emotion. Also,
(30:20):
I used to look at that a lot different pictures,
different guys I had, I would view them differently, and
I would look and like, again, I've talked about the
world the NLCS with the Mets in fifteen, there's Harvey
gets out the first pitch of the game, change up
down in a way called strike against Dexter Fowler in
horrible weather. Wow, we're in trouble right here. You know.
(30:43):
I look at that stuff and see what kind of
emotional control the picture has in that beyond physical control,
what kind of emotional control he has, and then it's
going to translate into physical That's always something I look for.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Hey, Joe, we're going to take a quick break.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I mentioned the Weaver contract, the Keller contract two years
twenty two million dollars. If I gave you the same
contract two years twenty two would you spend it on a, say,
an eighth inning guy or would you spend it on
a starting pitcher who will be in your rotation, maybe
at the front.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
I'll lost Joe that question right after this.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
In the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I mentioned giving Joe Madden two years twenty two million
dollar contract to spend. Would you spend it on someone
like a Brad Keller or would you spend it on
someone like Adrian Hauser who signed that contract with the
San Francisco Giants. Now he's probably not a front of
the rotation guy, but he had a really good breakout
year last year at the age of thirty one, terrible
(31:51):
with the Mets a couple of years ago, just lost
his sinker. He signed with Texas, didn't have a great
spring in Texas. Let him go because he had an
opt out in his claws. He had to be in
the major leagues or they had to let him go.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
So they let him go.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Picked up by the White Sox, and man, he was
lights out with the White Sox.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Got traded to Tampa Bay.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Didn't pitch as well there, but his peripherals were still good.
And most importantly, I think to the Giants, they saw
the shape on his slider and the velocity on his
sinker really played up. So the Giants signed him two years,
twenty two million dollars. It's an interesting sign. And bring
it up just because we mentioned, you know how many
innings relief pitchers are picking up.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
I still like the idea of having starting.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Pitchers who can go out there and give you six
and maybe seven innings sometimes. And again I'm not saying
he's gonna win a Cy Young Award, but it's a
guy based on the way he threw the ball last year.
Really interesting sign for me, Joe. If you can find
these guys at the right age, at the right time.
Who's had success before in the past, so it's not
like he hasn't done it. Interesting story as well, I mean,
(32:51):
where did the velocity come from last year? Well, he
went home after the year before, after that tough year
he worked with the guy in Oklahoma really broke down
the delivery.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
He felt like his hands were too close to his body.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
He freed up his hands, moved than in the world
away from his body, discovered he really wasn't using his
hamstring and glutes basically the backside nearly as much. So
he's sitting on his backside more, getting a lot more
easy power that we just talked about, and here he is.
So give me your thoughts on signing a guy like that.
I know we use that term innings eater a lot.
(33:23):
I almost think in today's game, Joe, that's become even
more valuable.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Well, I mean, when I was with the Rays, I
think I don't know how many times they said say
the phrase because we were so good at starting pitching,
that the starting pitching. Starting pitchers drive the engine. They're
kind of the pistons or the spark plugs or in
today's world, the feeld injectors. I don't know, but these
guys I've always felt drive the pitching engine, and I
(33:49):
just I'm considered old school. I still believe that. So yeah,
give me that money if I could acquire or sign
up a starting pitcher that I really like, and it
sounds like they really like this felt. I haven't really
watched them more recently, but I always want to believe,
and I still believe, given the opportunity to build, I
would really make sure that you get after the starting pitchers,
(34:11):
and I listen, I've always been, always been really for
everybody is right. You want to be able to sometimes
you want to be able to create the game backward.
If your starting pitching isn't strong enough, then you really
have to pay attention to playing the game backwards ninth,
the eight, seventh inning, et cetera, which is pretty much
what they do today. But preferably I'd rather go the
other Way'd rather go the conventional way. Starting pitching, like
(34:33):
you suggest, against me to the sixth, hopefully into the seventh.
I got less outs to get I could really utilize
matchup appropriately my pictures, and again more difficult now with
the three batter minimum, but I would try to get
that done and then you could actually put these guys
on a schedule that really doesn't impact talking about really
(34:54):
these pictures now your sensibilities in regards to not hurting anybody.
I mean I always, really, I would always worry about
stuff like that when you know a guy would say
he's good on the third consecutive day as an example,
So yes, I would spend on starting pitching that I like,
I love relievers, but man, the starting pitching when it
is created in a manner that it's it's pretty solid,
(35:17):
like one through five, six, And like I said, you
have to have two other guys in the wings at
least maybe three that are optionable coming up and down.
That should drive your engine and that makes everything else
managerially a heck of a lot easier to contend with
on a nightly basis.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, well, said Joe. I mean it's certainly not as
easy as saying it's an either or situation. But I
look at a team like the Phillies, and to me,
that's the model where almost every night you know, you're
not panic that you're gonna have to get to your
bullpen early, and what situation are you going to be
in the next day.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
That is ideal.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
And by the way, I mentioned the mechanical changes Howser
made and a lot of times, as you know, Joe,
it's when you get these guys getting them at the
right time. The Mets didn't get them at the right time.
Maybe the Giants have, especially in that ballpark. But he
also went to a carnivore die. Do you know what
that is, Joe, carnivore diet.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
It's just eating steaks. Is that? Steaks and work chops.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
I'm in no plant based foods, these zero carbs.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
He's a throwback. You talk about old school, that's prehistoric times.
There was no no tofu back then.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
That's you though, Well.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
I do I I really, I prefer that My body
likes that better fish meats now. Listen, I like last
night we killed some sushi and you know, so she's
a lot of protein too, if you get the right
mixture of events there. I'm not walking away from our restaurant,
ABBA's egg Plant Parmesan, which I consider right, thank you,
(36:49):
right next to Anty Flows. And then the other night
I was down at Mazaro's. It's a great the best deli,
Italian deli, one of the best in the country. It's
done in Saint Pete on twenty second North. And they
walk in and they had like the small steamer clams
like I don't know if there were manilas or not,
but they were really small. I brought them back. I'm kidding,
I'm salvating jail. Our chef put them together with some
(37:11):
steamers and like some nice juice and that the toasted bread,
you know, the garlic and the parsley all over them,
and then a nice pasta that we you just yeah
the oh you didn't have all the sauce over it,
my god favor. Yeah right, So I mean, yes, I
will I vibe in the non carnivore world, but primarily
(37:34):
I always slant towards protein. Some I just feel better,
my body feels better, and I don't. I mean for me,
I've got like all kind of weird food alergies with
my milks and creams and stuff like that, so I
prefer non creamy, non sauce foods. Oh.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I was worried there for a bit.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, I thought you would turn down a steeping, steaming
bowl of delicious pasta.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
But you can come. You can't say no to that.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
I never said that, never said that also, our chicken
parm is unbelievable too, Like you know, most people like
Delvin editbit Ava right now, our chip jails absolutely.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Hey, I'm not sure if you saw this, Joe, But
there was an English rocker who passed away recently, Chris Ria.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
If you heard of Chris Ria, I don't.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
He was the guy who maybe this comes to your
mind here, fool if you think it's over, yeah, late
nineteen seventies. But he was mostly known for and I
actually had not heard of this song Driving home for Christmas.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
He recorded this song.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
He actually wrote it for Van Morrison in nineteen seventy eight,
and he wasn't even sure if Van Morrison ever really
saw it or he definitely didn't do anything with it.
So eight years later Chris Ria puts it out on
the B side of a single. There's probably people out
there like what is a single?
Speaker 3 (38:55):
What is a B side?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
But anyway, it was out there and it became a
hit for him, and you know, tragically or right, he
passed away three days before Christmas. But I had not
heard that song. Apparently it's it's really popular obviously this
time of year. Driving home for Christmas, I bring it
up Joe because he just had some quotes and reading
some stuff about him in his oh bit around here.
(39:20):
We'd like to talk a lot about what your intentions are, right.
We're big fans of pure intentions. You do something because
you're passionate about it, you want to do a good job.
You don't do it because it's designed to what the
result is. You're not playing for the echoes, you know,
you just want the sound of a job well done.
And he actually said and he was popular, don't get
(39:41):
me wrong, but he probably could have been even more popular.
He said, I'm in that unique club where I went
into music because I love music, not to be rich
and famous. Looking at my career, the progress has been slow,
mainly because I haven't gotten out of my way to
sell myself. I thought it was really pretty cool for
a guy who obviously was a very talented musician did
(40:03):
have success. But he was the one who said, basically,
I went to music because I love music, and that
was it.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
That's pure intentions, absolutely, And I didn't.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
You know. I think you got into what you did
because of that, and I think I did with mine too.
I mean, it's just the success occurs because your passion
is driven in a pure way I think. Man, I
mean I since I was six, I wanted to be
a major league baseball player, and I know that, but
as a better football player, so I get to college
because of that. But baseball is always my passion. And
(40:33):
then I never for once as I'm working my way
as a scout coming up and then eventually as a
minor league player, coach, manager, whatever, and then big league guy.
I always my eye was always on the ball regarding
I'm doing what I love to do. And I always
believe that if I did that well enough, all this
(40:53):
other stuff would take care of itself. That that was
pretty much my mantra from from the beginning, you know,
to arrive at the point that I have or did
you know? Sometimes I'll be in a situation and all
of a sudden, like the other night, we had our
big event at Alva our thanksmis dude. Within five weeks
we had almost two hundred people in that building and
(41:14):
raised eighty five thousand bucks for the homeless situation. It
was like, so I stepped back from that, I go, WHOA,
which just happened here? And you know, obviously it is
because a lot of it's what we've accomplished in you know,
my baseball care, et cetera, and the people that I've met.
But the intent was never that. It was only to
(41:34):
to fulfill this passion. You know, when you smell and
you put your glove away in a wintertime and wrap
it in a place plastic bag, put some glovolume on it,
which made it like ten pounds, which was dumb, but
then you would open every once a while just to
smell your glove. When you're a kid, right, and then
you look outside and just can't wait to get somewhat
warm enough to go out there and play catcher or
(41:55):
just take some batting practice. And then you go to
Connie Maax eighty for the first time, you walk through
the clown's mouth out to see this green field. That's magic.
That's magic. And I don't know that you know, children
today are able to experience the magic that we felt
only because everything's so common and ubiquitous and streamed and
(42:18):
it's so it's not as unique. You didn't have to
work as hard to experience these things that we had
to work so hard to experience the things that we loved.
So anyway, yeah, it was all about I've always wanted
to do this. It is my passion. Never once thought
about fame, fortune, et cetera. I just I did think
(42:38):
about winning. I'll say that much. Even as a kid. Well,
you played for the State Trooper Eagles and Richie and
Rabbits and sway your coaches if you not winning was
not an option. It was not an option. So that
was in bred when I was from I was ten.
But it was all based I think on more altruism
and pure intentions to do the right thing and played
a game to win. That's all we ever did.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Yeah, I mean listen, winning as part of the passion.
Speaker 5 (43:01):
You know that.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
By the way, when Chris ray I wrote Driving Home
for Christmas, uh, he was banned from driving at the time.
He had some issues he was dealing with. And you
think about sparks of a passion Joe. For Chris Raya,
it was he heard the an album from the James Gang.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Joe watsh remember that James Gang.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Absolutely yes, and he went.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Out and bought a guitar and that that was it,
that spark of inspiration like that, just he heard it
and it was moved so much by it, went out
and bought a guitar and became a great slide guitarist.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
I remember putting that tape that a track into my
sixty five Thunderbird as I was driving between jim Thorpe
and Eastern Pennsylvania, these back roads going back to school,
and I throw that James Gang tape into that eight track, man,
And those are the kind of things. I mean, you
talk about this time of the year, you're just you're
(43:56):
you're making it happen. But this is when I were going.
We're going back to Hazleton on on actually Christmas morning,
and as I drive from the airport back to home,
all this stuff's going to come rushing forward.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
So that was Chris Raya, passed away at the age
of seventy four. So here we are at the ninth inning, Joe,
time to close it out. What do you have for
us today? On the Book of Joe.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
You know, there was there was some quotes today about
you know, going Christmas is pretty much about going home,
and you just brought that up. But I went to
Fred Gaily Miracle on thirty fourth Street, the defense attorney
in that movie, and this is not just this's this
Christmas moment, but you know, just in our daily lives.
But this is great. Faith is believing in things when
(44:40):
common sense tells you not to. You know, we get
faced with that all the time on a daily basis.
Or your faith is tested, whether it's be religious faith
they you know, fath in, faith in people that you know,
faith in an industry or the industry that you may
work in, or the people that are in charge of you.
Things get tested daily. But so you have you have
(45:04):
to go beyond your common sensor. You know what the
general public might be parrotying or echoing at that point
the echo chamber. So believe in things when commons tells
you not to. That is true faith. And I want
to believe that I got some of that.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
That is a great message, especially at this time of year.
Never losing faith, never losing faith.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
Good stuff. Joe.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
We'll see you next time on the Book of Joe
and Merry Christmas.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
Thank you, Tommy, Merry Christmas. And I promise you to
big old Asaignia over the next couple of days.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app.
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey Aaron, Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts.
I am Tom Berducci with Joe Madden and Joe. I
want to start with one of your former world champion
Chicago Cubs, Wilson Contreras gets traded to the bust In
Red Sox. You know him, Well, it looks like he's
going to play first base. I think he's catching.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Days are over.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
What first jumped out at you when you heard the
Red Sox had picked up Contreras from the Saint Louis Cardinals.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Well, first of all, I mean I love Wilson. I
still believe you can catch. I haven't seen it in
a while. But there was a lot of I don't know,
almost like force him into the situation conversationally whatever. But
he's the first base But I could hit. I know
is he didn't quite reach an eight hundred oho ps
last year, but the guy can hit. I think that ballpark.
(01:01):
Although when he's really doing well, I like him in
the middle of the field a post of trying to
pull the ball, So I prefer I hope that that
wall doesn't influence him a little bit. But Wilson plays
hard every day required attention. He's just so emotional. He
was always so emotional, and but I love them for it.
I mean he was. I used to tell him, you're
(01:21):
the guy we plug into. As he said, You're like
a socket on the wall. We need to plug into
your energy every night. So he would. He would get
a little bit upset at things on occasion. I think
he's outgrown that a bit, but energy great. We had
a wonderful relationship. I still one of the finest throwing
arms I've had as a catcher. Really worked hard to
understand game plans and apply himself. A lot of the
(01:44):
issues were based on the way metrics are considered today,
receiving the ball, those kind of evaluations, which again i'd
have to sometimes the catcher's first, sometimes he's lost the
next year. It's just crazy. But I'm a Willie fan.
I love Willie. I hope he kills it up there.
I hope he stays in the middle of the field mentally,
(02:06):
and who knows, it might even sticking behind the plate
at some point if necessary, because you could a kid
is like when he's hitting well. As a catcher, that's
a pretty special position.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think some of the defensive shortcompanis, if you will,
because his hands.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Are a little active back there.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
He's not necessarily quiet, but maybe those got overplayed a
little bit. I would at least talk to him about
it and see if his heart's still in it, and
I at least have the option that even if he's
my third catcher, you know that he's usable at some point,
if not on a majority basis. But love the bat
with you. Great point you made about him being emotional.
(02:43):
I think in a good way that suits really well
in a place like Boston. Boston's going to hold you accountable,
and I think he really likes that. I love the
fire that he brings in a place like Boston. I
think that really plays. I think the fans are going
to like him, and he can always hit. And you're
right too about the pole side. I don't necessarily see
him as a pole side hitter. He shouldn't change his
(03:05):
game just because it's inviting over there. But listen, that's
a good deal for the Boston Red Sox. And there's
only two teams in baseball that have not signed a
free agent this offseason so far, Colorado Rockies and Boston
Red Sox. They have been heavy on the trade market,
and just ironically, I don't think there's a reason for this.
They went to Saint Louis a couple of times where
(03:27):
Hein Bloom is there former Red Sox GM, and to
Pittsburgh with Ben Charrington former Boston GM.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
But this one really worked out. Listen.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
They got the Cardinals to kick in some money here,
which usually means, you know, you put in some higher
level prospects. So Contraras is under contract for the next
two years, that between seventeen and eighteen million dollars. That's
a really good deal for the Boston Red Sox and
they still have money to make at least one big
move here. And to me, that's either got to be
Bregman or Bishett. With the possibility of a Tell Martee trade,
(04:01):
I still think Bregman is the best fit here. I'm
a little curious as to all these parts that the
Red Sox have. Joe, and they have a ton of
position players. I don't think they have enough at bats
for the number of position players that they have. You know,
when you think about Christian Campbell, Tristan Cassis, Romy Gonzalez,
David Hamilton, Nick Sogard, Marcello Mayer, even Durant and a
(04:22):
Brady in the outfield, Yoshida seems like a fifth wheel here.
You know, they have moves to make. I just don't
I have to wait and see where the next domino
is going to fall here. If it's not Bregman or Bashett,
you know, I don't know where they go. What's your
feeling about what completes this roster here in Boston?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Well, yeah, Bregman always fits for me. But I'm a
big Marte fan, I really am. They're not. Are they
talking about Mishett a shortstop? Is that part of it? No?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I don't think so. I think he would be second
base Marte. Yeah, I'm with you. It's funny. And one
day I was talking to Dave Roberts about Marte and
he said, from the right side, he scares him more
than any right handed hitter, including Aaron Judge. I like, whoa, Now,
there's six years left on that deal. But he does
seem like he's the kind of guy even if he
(05:10):
can't play second base, he's always going to hit.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
He is another high energy guy. I've liked him from
the beginning. We started with Seattle correct wasn't at Seattle. Yeah,
I liked him even when I first began, when I
first saw him, Bregman, you know, Bregman's a winner. He's
been proven to be a winner. He's got that, you know,
that that killer's mentality where he just seems to be
in the same headspace all the time. Never really looks
(05:35):
like he's not an up and down kind of a guy.
Just stay with him. If he's not playing, we'll just
stay with it. He'll turn it around. I've always loved
him for that short swinging. I think he is built
for that ballpark there, the way he can pull the baseball.
He's right center when he's good, and when he played
in Houston and that was dangerous because he made a
mistake away take advantage of the porch and right center.
(05:56):
But I think overall, his his his makeup, his personality
plays well in Boston. But I also do like Marte
a lot too, Son and then Bushett. Of course, if
you're gonna plaim at second base, okay I would. I
would not put them a sure stuff, especially there. But
you're talking about all these different players, it just sounds
(06:16):
to me, and again, you probably know better than I
like They're always searching for a platoon advantage. You know,
the folks that are running the Red Sox right now
are highly into all that stuff, and so I would
I would wonder how often the conversation UH trends to
hit in the direction of let's create platoon advantages all year.
(06:38):
I think they like to give Alex a bunch of
stuff to work with. So I don't know to what
extent that is part of this glut of positional players,
or like you said, are they just looking to trade
somebody whatever. But if I I would go Bregman first,
Marte second, and then eventually Bo. So I like Bo
a lot, but I mean those two guys. I might
just been such a huge fan of Martey from the beginning.
(07:01):
And like I said, I think Bregman's a winner.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, I mean, I see Brankman's got a really good market.
I love the fit as well in Boston. You know,
he just kills it in that ballpark as he did
in Houston. And he's a team leader. He's a glue guy,
there's no question about it. He's the guy you want
on your team. Obviously other teams want him. So it's
not going to be easy whether he gets a five
or a six year deal. I think it's the market
(07:23):
is going to determine that he's a good fit for
the Blue Jays. They're in it, the Cubs may be
in it. There's talk about the Diamondbacks. He lives out
there in Arizona. Whether they could win a bidding war
with those other teams. I questioned that, But they're in it,
and his team should be in it. This guy's a
really good player, great defender, and again he's one of
(07:47):
the few guys I think you look at and you say,
one of the upsides here is we're getting a guy
who's going to be a leader on our team no
matter where he plays.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
He is, He's Joe.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
He's one of those guys to me, when I talk
to him, sees the game at a different level. Like
he's the guy in the bench you can see if
a pitcher has a tell. He's a guy who can
pick out patterns the way they're pitching to guys.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
He's just one of those guys.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
He's got so much he's such a baseball rat and
such shared information. You know the benefit you're getting from
him is going to be better than what you get.
And you look at what his ops is, right, he's
lefties and those kinds of numbers. He's so valuable beyond
the numbers.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
You know. And if I'm him, you know, going to
Chicago to play Wrigley or back to Fenway to play
in Boston is way more attractive than going to Arizona
to play at the Bob. I mean, so the Bob
to me, so, I you know, I know they've done
recently well. I guess if he does live there in
(08:46):
the off season, I understand the attractiveness of that. But
as a baseball freak, and that he is, you're talking
about a baseball junkie, I would believe he's going to
be attracted to cathedrals. I mean Fenway and Wrigley to
the best, Wriggley one, Fenway two. And then you got
the Rabbit fan bases, the Cubs losing Tucker looking to
(09:06):
rebuild somewhere else. Third base is a wonderful cornerstone always
to start with. And with the rest of that infield
there they got some gamers there at shortstop, Swanson and
of course Nico at second, and then Bush at first.
I mean it's kind of nice. I mean, I'd say
that almost would rival what we did in twenty sixteen,
so I could see where if i'm them the Cubs,
(09:27):
I have to make a strong bit on this one.
Hitting there maybe not as fun as Boston probably. I
mean the wind blows in so often that really people
have no idea. You get torch a ball the left
field and all of a sudden, the left fielder is
coming in on it. And there's days of pop up leaves.
But I think those are the days that are fewer
and farther between than the times that it's blowing out.
(09:48):
So just everything you're telling me about him, I've never
really spoken with him, but this is a baseball gym rat.
I would believe he's going to be attracted to either
Wrigley or Fenway.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, it comes have been fairly quiet red Sox, As
I mentioned, real on the trade front now with you know,
getting Sunny Gray and Johanno Vieto to go slop behind
Garrett Crochet and the rotation.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Brian Beyo is still there now.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
He's traded a bunch of prospects, but I think it's
been smart where he's held on to you guys like
Roman Anthony. Of course, I mentioned Mayor Christian Campbell, those
three top prospects are still there. So I think what
he's done is he said, listen, we're keeping our elite guys.
We're going to trade some of our volume of prospects,
which I like, I have no problem with that to
(10:35):
kind of figure out this major league team without getting
into really long term contracts. But I think the final
piece is going to have to be unless you traded
Duran or going to Bray you and you can get
a right handed hitting outfielder. I'm not sure who that
guy is right now in the market. I really do
think it's Bashett or Bregmant. So one more move for
(10:55):
the Red Sox in the American least. How do you
see the East right now, Joe, I know we're only no,
we're deep into the winter, but we're not finning products yet.
I think we're getting back to the days where, like
when you were at Tampa Bay Man, you got to
go into the season thinking you got to win more
than ninety games.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Yeah, Baltimore picked it up with the Lawns. And I
just read some things from Alonso today in the New
York Post, and I just like what he said and
how he said it. I don't again, I don't know
this hill. He's went to school like literally half a
block or so from where I'm living right now in Tampa,
and I planned high school. Never met him, like to
meet him. I just like what he said and how
we said it, you know, pretty much praised Baltimore without
(11:34):
integrating the Mets whatsoever. And he's eager. He's one of
those eager guys. And I think he's that ballpark's a
great fit for him. So all of a sudden, they're better.
The Blue Jays are just better based on what they
had done last year. The Yankees, you know, in spite
of all the times we talk about the shortcomings, they
still won ninety for four games last year, and the
Red Sox continued to ascend. And of course I believe
(11:57):
as I drive by the park every day, I see
the roof now on Tropicana, the roof looking good. So
I think once the get back into their confines, normal,
normal patterns, I think they're going to reascend again. So yeah,
it is. It's it's getting kind of dirty again. Where listen,
it was so much fun. It was so much fun.
(12:18):
That's how the Rays got good quickly by playing against
such wonderful competition, really good teams in very hostile territories
like Yankee Stadium at that time. Of course, Fenway was
always tough, and now again with Baltimore's pertinent, like when
Buck was there, it became very difficult. And the Blue
Jays always had good teams, always beat him somehow, but
(12:38):
the Blue Jays were always good. So I love it.
I love when the American League East is hot. It
was nothing better. I mean that's you know, meanwith coming
being raised by the Angels in the American League West,
which was also very good with you know, the Marriags
were good, the A's are good, we were good out
there was kind of a Texas was just always right
there too, to a certain extent. Great. But the AL East,
(12:59):
I just talked about the vibe, you know, the traditional
component of playing on the East Coast, which I think
is unmatched. That censor passed. So all of these things
are conspiring, I think to make it a very interesting year.
So when you say who's going to win the American
League East, it's almost it truly can be a toss up.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
No, I agree.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I think it's great for the game when teams have
to answer one another.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Especially Baltimore.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I thought Pete Alonzo would have been a great fit
for the Boston Red Sox. So good on the Orioles
to jump out and get a guy like that. We
mentioned the Yankees. They lost Luke Weaver. I take a
break right here, Joe, and we get back. I want
to talk about Luke Weaver, like many others these days,
crossing town to the New York Mets and what's happening with.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
The relief market.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Talk about that right after this on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Luke Weaver, free agent pitcher signs with the New York
Mets two years, twenty two million dollars, which is the
same contract, by the way, signed by Brad Keller with
the Philadelphia Phillies. And it's close to Ryan Helsley two
years twenty eight million, Emilio o Pagan two years twenty million,
been again with the Tigers two years nineteen million. You
(14:26):
get the point here. At my point here, Joe, is
that teams now are willing to pay a higher aav
for a relief pitcher, but they are staying away from years.
When you think about you know, the Tanner Scott four
year contract last year, going back a little farther, the
Mark Millanson's, the Jonathan Papple bonds. You know, it's so volatile,
as you know, Joe, that you know when relief pitchers pitch, well,
(14:49):
that means they get used a lot and then you
hit free agency. And I think you saw this last
year at Luke Weaver, like his workloads sort of caught
up with him. Not that he was overused, but to me,
and you know this a lot better than me, Joe,
when you pitch high leverage and and you know the
mental and physical grind of it, it's hard to repeat
that year after year after year.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
So let me start with Weaver. You know, was just
not the same at the end of the year.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Surprised the Yankees didn't bring him back, But they do
have Duval and they do have Bed and our guys
they picked up at the end of the season to
sort of replaced him. Are you thinking Weaver might be
a good pickup on a bounce back? And the whole
year wasn't bad, don't get me wrong. But where you
see Weaver right now as a late ending guy for
the New York Mets, Yeah, he.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Had a different look. I had been injured earlier that
last season too, right, he had had some kind of
an issue and he came back, he wasn't quite the
same or never really got into the swing of things.
I like it, I mean, I like the guy, And
just to go back to what you just talked about,
It's something I always spoke about with relief pictures in general.
And I always go back to the point that these
(15:51):
guys are held to an impossible standard being perfect or perfection.
There's a lot of emotional expenditures with bullpen pictures and
especially the high leverage guys in the major league level.
That's really hardly ever considered. And I always did. I
always consider the emotional expenditures going on too. Like I said,
you're not gonna run away from somebody if he's your guy.
(16:11):
But always used to keep like kind of track like
where's he at mentally and how and how does he
handle the bad moment? That's the biggest thing, because when
they when they just keep wrapping up games and nailing
it down. Of course they come to the ballpark, they're invincible,
But what's when the one moment occurs when things don't
go so well? How does he react to that? The
emotional expenditure, and then you might get too And I
(16:32):
talked about this too, how do you get him going again?
Where back then you could bring him in for an
out or two outs and not have to worry about
the three batter minimum kind of things. So there was
there's all these different dynamics going on now that I
think it's somewhat a little bit more difficult, and I'd
have to like actually do it to give you a
different opinion. But when a guy goes sideways, how do
you get him back? Well? So Weaver to me, I
(16:55):
like his stuff a lot. He just just seemed to
I don't know, he just he lost that killer looked
that he had the year before. But his stuff is
still good and it's going to play well, and I
think it's a good sign on the part of the Mets.
I do. Hell's me the same thing with Baltimore. I
saw this guy, and I know that we've talked about
him where his peripherrees don't look as good, you know,
(17:17):
ball and play ex of loss, these things like that,
But damn, I saw this guy throw the ball and
it was good stuff. And then Pegane and Keller again,
these are considered the elites right now in a sense,
and you know they're they're all coming in at the
same price tag. Everybody's viewing them the same. Their agents
know exactly how what's good, what's going to happen for them,
(17:37):
And you're talking about the shorter leash in regards to
the number of years all that stuff. It's just it's
another example of the industry and how one group copies
the other group. But nobody's willing to step out. Yes,
Scott had a bad year last year. I'm curious though,
with this year because this guy was really good for
a long period of time and the Dodgers have a
tendency to fix things. So long answer, but I really
(17:59):
like we were there. I like all those names. I
think bounce back years are in vogue for relief pictures
as long as they're healthy and well. And you got
to do all your work about that. You got to
talk to them. Where's their heads at? Talk to people
that were with them all last year? What do you
got somebody that you could trust their opinion? All that
stuff matters when you're taking a chance or an opportunity
like this.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
This is interesting. It may mean nothing, Joe, but I
want to get your opinion on this. Looking at there's
been four relief pitchers who signed contracts of three or
more years. Actually they're all three, but they're the only
ones that got more than two years. Alexis Diaz, Devin Williams,
Robert Suarez, Tyler Rodgers. What's interesting to me is think
about how all of them throw not a lot of effort.
(18:43):
I mean Diaz longstrider, low armslot, very athletic delivery, Devin
Williams same thing, Rogers same thing, super low and Swerez
easy going, kind of you know, ninety percent fastball diet.
To me, not essentially, you know, high impact, high energy
(19:04):
type of closer. Interesting to me that those are the
guys now, and I know that we back in the
day we thought of guys like Al Raboski and goose Gas.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
It is just the model of.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Relief pitchers, but kind of the athletic and not super
big guys throwing one hundred miles an hour like Helsley Is.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
They may be more repeatable models.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Maybe there's nothing to that, but I just find that
interesting that those guys are the ones that got more
than two years.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Well, are you describing people that noally don't get hurt. Also,
I mean among those guys.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
I think you're right about that. I think there's something
to that.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
And I think you yeah, I think the lower armstroke
saves an arm a little bit. Just think about you know,
even when it's used to throw all these BP I mean,
you don't want to throw from over the top. He
felt that strain on your shoulders. He would drop down
a little bit and try to gain command from a
little bit lower arm slot. And even watch some great
passers in football sometimes their arm isn't as high. It's
(19:58):
it's repeatable, it's less stress on that that joint up there.
And with these guys, like I said, I thought Williams
was getting too low. Maybe again, I don't know if
that was to something was bothering him he lowered it
down or again analytical influence. I'm not sure, But I
think the other part about that in normally is that
a guy could really ride a fastball from down there.
(20:20):
And then you talk about, well, Rogers just has more deception.
You got Williams with this crazy change up. Who else
did we say there?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I'm sorry, Robert Suarez.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, like you said, easy gas, that's easy gas, and man,
easy gas is always attractive as a scout when you
go out there and you watch, you know, easy gas.
Who's easy gas? Zach Wheeler's easy gas? Jacob de Grom,
although Jacob has been heard often, but easy gas. You
know you see guys like that. God does that turn
a scout on? So, I don't know. I think part
(20:50):
of their the allure there is the fact that analytically,
and I'm sure they got these these tests done or
they have this their little chart made regarding where a
guy throws the ball from and the likelihood of him
being injured might be less than somebody that has an
higher arm slot.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
So this is not a surprise to you.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
But I was looking at the total number of innings
that teams ask relief pitchers to cover now, because we
still have a lot of starting pitchers out there on
the market that has not developed as quickly as the
relief market. And it turns out that innings by relief
pitchers in twenty twenty five were up slightly in twenty
twenty four, actually down slightly from twenty three.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
So not a lot of variants, I would say, in
the last three years.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
But if you go back ten years, relief pitchers are
throwing almost twenty seven hundred more innings in just a
ten year period. That's an eighteen percent jump. Now, eighteen
percent of your twenty eight outs or twenty seven outs
are going to be four or five outs a game.
So what we're asking relief pitchers to do, you know,
(21:53):
increasing on an increasing basis at least the last ten years.
That's significant. You're talking about eighteen percent more innings. It's
a lot of innings to cover.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Uh, you sit in the dugout, I've wreched. I'm writing
things that right. I mean seems like you know, on
a nightly basis, when you're having to go to the
pen early nightly man, you better have some even ahead guys.
You have to have almost the entire group has to
be even ahead, meaning you'd like to use these guys
when the score is tied or your head. There's also
(22:22):
the small deficits that you want to maintain, especially when
you have a decent offense. But when you have that
many innings to cover on a nightly basis, it really
is it's hard. I mean, unless you just have this
superior group of relief pictures. In today's world, the superior
group of relief pictures are considered guys that throw really
(22:43):
hard and could misbats. That's probably the definition of a
superior relief picture right now, although you just mentioned a
couple that mispats in another way or create week contact.
I'm miss telling you. Man, on a nightly basis, when
you get guys going five innings and sometimes less than
five innings over the course of maybe three, four, five
days in a row, your bullpen is just dragged, tongues
(23:04):
hanging out, and it stinks because when you're in the
dugout man, you don't want to hurt anybody. You don't
want to get anybody hurt. But then again, the game's closed,
you're trying to win the game, and it's important in
the ebb and flow of the season, and you got
to use people more often than not. However, I know
from my personal experience there was times that before the
game would begin, the front office would tell you who's down,
(23:26):
who you're not permitted to use that night. We got
to that point and because there's all there's the ability
to bring guys up take guys down, which is when
you have those the optionable relief pictures, which is also
a very valuable asset to have. Then you could front
office wise, you could choose to give guys rest, knowing
(23:47):
that you could put guys up and down. And so
that's like I always thought, you have to have at
wide at least eight or nine starting pitchers that you
really did dig on in order to complete a season.
And I don't even know what's considered the appropriate number
of relief pictures they have now between the group that
you have on a major league level and the group
that you're holding back on Triple A. So there's I
just know on a night by night basis, when it
(24:10):
comes down as strategical trying to win the game and
having an idea what's going to happen. And again I
just talked about impossible standard of perfection. It's hard to
ask your guys to go out there that often and
expect them to just nail it down that for that
many extra innings. That's crazy.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah, and this is expected.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
As relief pitchers pick up more innings, they're less effective.
I mean, the gap between hitting a starting pitcher and
a relief pitcher. It used to be much harder to
hit relief pitching now Actually the on base percentage is
higher against the relief pitching now. Their strikeout rate is higher,
the batting average is slightly lower, but you can win
the at bat more. We're talking about guys who don't
(24:49):
have the same kind of command, right. But it used
to be a bigger gap, I thought, where it was
so difficult to get anything off relief pitching. But the
gap has narrowed because they're they're asked to get more outs.
This is interesting to me too, Joe. What inning in
a ballgame do you think has the lowest batting average
and the lowest on base percentage, the least offense in
(25:11):
any inning in a major league game, not including extra innings.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
I would say it's kind of a middle inning. You know,
sometimes guys you know, you get off to they come out,
they break good, and things kind of settle in a
starting pitcher that might, you know, his first drive goes
into out of bounce and his first seven iron just
doesn't hit it quite right, and all of a sudden,
rhythm comes together and they find their rhythm. I'm saying
(25:36):
sixth inning.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Well, I think I like your theory, but you're off
on the inning because the toughest inning to hit in
the major leagues is the second inning.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Well, okay, I mean that is weird to me.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
First of all, Traditionally it's been in the last decade
or more the ninth inning, right, I mean, and I
realize you're not always playing the Bobby of the ninth,
so you may have fewer at bats, but you know, essentially,
if the game is close, you're not messing around with
the game. One of your best pictures is out there
at to but the second ending, I can't really explain
that other than what you just said about a picture
(26:10):
just kind of finding his stuff and the back half
of the lineup just not being as good as obviously
the top half.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
Yeah, I was just picture finding his stuff and then
the propensity to switch to another to a relief picture
right around that fifth or sixth inning. My point also
was that in the latter part of the game, if
the hitters have been asleep at all that night, they're
definitely gonna ramp it up late, especially when you're behind
by a runner too. I think there's just a higher
level of mental acumen among hitters as the game gets
(26:38):
deeper tighter behind a little bit, And not that anybody,
I'm not It's not an accusatory moment like I'm saying.
People don't care. That's not it at all. It's just
human nature. So that's that's what I was working off of,
that point where the starter gets better and then the
in today's world, the managers not concerned about going to
(26:58):
the pen earlier. You're going to get like this middle
part of the game there that hitters have to you know,
they they're just into that the flow of the game
in a sense where it's later in the year. Games
are going every night, every night, every night, and if
it's not going so well, you kind of your mental
acuity is not as high. But as soon as that
game gets late, man, I know that you got the closers,
(27:19):
but the hitters perk up a little bit too. So
it's interesting the second inning, like you said, probably because
it gets to this lower part of the batting order,
the pitchers somewhat fresh and maybe gets through his anxiety
in the first inning. But I still have I've always
I've always thought that the middle innings kind of sometimes
there could be a lull.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Offensively, well, I agree with your theory on the middle innings.
I think most games pivot around the fifth inning, and
that's why managers have to face that third time around
option you start making decisions on strategy generally around the
fifth inning. In today's game, maybe into the sixth. So
I like your thoughts on the middle innings. Now, the
question of what is the easiest or highest scoring inning
(28:00):
in the game, It's always been true the first inning.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
First, Yeah, I was gonna say that.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I mean, it's it's obvious, and it cracks me up
when I hear people talk all the time about somebody
out there in the first inning, this guy has trouble
in the first inning. How many times have you heard
that in a broadcast, This guy's got an eight e
RA in the first inning. Well, first of all, that's
such a small sample size. If you have one game
you give up three or four in the first inning,
you're not gonna have a good r in the first inning.
And second of all, why is it the highest scoring
(28:26):
inning in a game? Well, your lineup is optimized to
score the most runs the one time in the game
you control who's batting in an inning, So you're having
your best designed lineup batting in the first inning. It's
not a surprise. It always has been, always will be
first inning. So I don't want to hear about a
picture has trouble in the first inning, although some do.
(28:47):
I'm not ruling that out, but as a general rule,
the pictuer is facing the best hitters, who in the
lineup is maximized to score the most runs.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Well, that's you know, the flow of the game to
I'm tell you, there was I think really good pictures.
Sometimes those are the guys you might be able to
get early, just because of what I talked about my
golf and now you know the temple of your armstroke
just breathing well, I mean, regardless of how many years
you've pitched or played, you're still going to get that
charge of that batt I'm not saying that's anxiety. It's
(29:14):
like an over eagerness or excitement. That's you got to
be able to control and breathe in the moment all
those things happen, and that's sometimes where I think a
guy can make mistakes. But if you let him up
and he starts breathing right and all of a sudden
that tempo shows up, that's where guys get real dirty,
and that's when it becomes much more difficult. So I agree.
I mean, to me, you want to ambush as much
as you can early, and the way the lineups are
(29:37):
designed today as compared to in the past with lesser
leadoff hitters. Although Ricky Henderson was pretty good, lou Brock
was pretty good. Lou Brock would put a hurt on
you from the first that bat too, And that goes
back to the sixties. So it's it's interesting, and I
think a lot of it has to do, like you said,
better part of your lineup coming up quickly, and they
got to be ready for the first that bat while
(30:00):
a pitcher still trying to get into his rhythm of
the day. Like I'll tell you Matt Garza and I
had Maddie with the Rays. He had a great air force.
We went to the World Series. But if he came
out through that first fastball down angled ninety four at
the knise called strike, I was like, well, here we go,
because I knew he was in control of his emotion. Also,
(30:20):
I used to look at that a lot different pictures,
different guys I had, I would view them differently, and
I would look and like, again, I've talked about the
world the NLCS with the Mets in fifteen, there's Harvey
gets out the first pitch of the game, change up
down in a way called strike against Dexter Fowler in
horrible weather. Wow, we're in trouble right here. You know.
(30:43):
I look at that stuff and see what kind of
emotional control the picture has in that beyond physical control,
what kind of emotional control he has, and then it's
going to translate into physical That's always something I look for.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Hey, Joe, we're going to take a quick break.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I mentioned the Weaver contract, the Keller contract two years
twenty two million dollars. If I gave you the same
contract two years twenty two would you spend it on a, say,
an eighth inning guy or would you spend it on
a starting pitcher who will be in your rotation, maybe
at the front.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
I'll lost Joe that question right after this.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
In the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I mentioned giving Joe Madden two years twenty two million
dollar contract to spend. Would you spend it on someone
like a Brad Keller or would you spend it on
someone like Adrian Hauser who signed that contract with the
San Francisco Giants. Now he's probably not a front of
the rotation guy, but he had a really good breakout
year last year at the age of thirty one, terrible
(31:51):
with the Mets a couple of years ago, just lost
his sinker. He signed with Texas, didn't have a great
spring in Texas. Let him go because he had an
opt out in his claws. He had to be in
the major leagues or they had to let him go.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
So they let him go.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Picked up by the White Sox, and man, he was
lights out with the White Sox.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Got traded to Tampa Bay.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Didn't pitch as well there, but his peripherals were still good.
And most importantly, I think to the Giants, they saw
the shape on his slider and the velocity on his
sinker really played up. So the Giants signed him two years,
twenty two million dollars. It's an interesting sign. And bring
it up just because we mentioned, you know how many
innings relief pitchers are picking up.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
I still like the idea of having starting.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Pitchers who can go out there and give you six
and maybe seven innings sometimes. And again I'm not saying
he's gonna win a Cy Young Award, but it's a
guy based on the way he threw the ball last year.
Really interesting sign for me, Joe. If you can find
these guys at the right age, at the right time.
Who's had success before in the past, so it's not
like he hasn't done it. Interesting story as well, I mean,
(32:51):
where did the velocity come from last year? Well, he
went home after the year before, after that tough year
he worked with the guy in Oklahoma really broke down
the delivery.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
He felt like his hands were too close to his body.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
He freed up his hands, moved than in the world
away from his body, discovered he really wasn't using his
hamstring and glutes basically the backside nearly as much. So
he's sitting on his backside more, getting a lot more
easy power that we just talked about, and here he is.
So give me your thoughts on signing a guy like that.
I know we use that term innings eater a lot.
(33:23):
I almost think in today's game, Joe, that's become even
more valuable.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Well, I mean, when I was with the Rays, I
think I don't know how many times they said say
the phrase because we were so good at starting pitching,
that the starting pitching. Starting pitchers drive the engine. They're
kind of the pistons or the spark plugs or in
today's world, the feeld injectors. I don't know, but these
guys I've always felt drive the pitching engine, and I
(33:49):
just I'm considered old school. I still believe that. So yeah,
give me that money if I could acquire or sign
up a starting pitcher that I really like, and it
sounds like they really like this felt. I haven't really
watched them more recently, but I always want to believe,
and I still believe, given the opportunity to build, I
would really make sure that you get after the starting pitchers,
(34:11):
and I listen, I've always been, always been really for
everybody is right. You want to be able to sometimes
you want to be able to create the game backward.
If your starting pitching isn't strong enough, then you really
have to pay attention to playing the game backwards ninth,
the eight, seventh inning, et cetera, which is pretty much
what they do today. But preferably I'd rather go the
other Way'd rather go the conventional way. Starting pitching, like
(34:33):
you suggest, against me to the sixth, hopefully into the seventh.
I got less outs to get I could really utilize
matchup appropriately my pictures, and again more difficult now with
the three batter minimum, but I would try to get
that done and then you could actually put these guys
on a schedule that really doesn't impact talking about really
(34:54):
these pictures now your sensibilities in regards to not hurting anybody.
I mean I always, really, I would always worry about
stuff like that when you know a guy would say
he's good on the third consecutive day as an example,
So yes, I would spend on starting pitching that I like,
I love relievers, but man, the starting pitching when it
is created in a manner that it's it's pretty solid,
(35:17):
like one through five, six, And like I said, you
have to have two other guys in the wings at
least maybe three that are optionable coming up and down.
That should drive your engine and that makes everything else
managerially a heck of a lot easier to contend with
on a nightly basis.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, well, said Joe. I mean it's certainly not as
easy as saying it's an either or situation. But I
look at a team like the Phillies, and to me,
that's the model where almost every night you know, you're
not panic that you're gonna have to get to your
bullpen early, and what situation are you going to be
in the next day.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
That is ideal.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
And by the way, I mentioned the mechanical changes Howser
made and a lot of times, as you know, Joe,
it's when you get these guys getting them at the
right time. The Mets didn't get them at the right time.
Maybe the Giants have, especially in that ballpark. But he
also went to a carnivore die. Do you know what
that is, Joe, carnivore diet.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
It's just eating steaks. Is that? Steaks and work chops.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
I'm in no plant based foods, these zero carbs.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
He's a throwback. You talk about old school, that's prehistoric times.
There was no no tofu back then.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
That's you though, Well.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
I do I I really, I prefer that My body
likes that better fish meats now. Listen, I like last
night we killed some sushi and you know, so she's
a lot of protein too, if you get the right
mixture of events there. I'm not walking away from our restaurant,
ABBA's egg Plant Parmesan, which I consider right, thank you,
(36:49):
right next to Anty Flows. And then the other night
I was down at Mazaro's. It's a great the best deli,
Italian deli, one of the best in the country. It's
done in Saint Pete on twenty second North. And they
walk in and they had like the small steamer clams
like I don't know if there were manilas or not,
but they were really small. I brought them back. I'm kidding,
I'm salvating jail. Our chef put them together with some
(37:11):
steamers and like some nice juice and that the toasted bread,
you know, the garlic and the parsley all over them,
and then a nice pasta that we you just yeah
the oh you didn't have all the sauce over it,
my god favor. Yeah right, So I mean, yes, I
will I vibe in the non carnivore world, but primarily
(37:34):
I always slant towards protein. Some I just feel better,
my body feels better, and I don't. I mean for me,
I've got like all kind of weird food alergies with
my milks and creams and stuff like that, so I
prefer non creamy, non sauce foods. Oh.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I was worried there for a bit.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, I thought you would turn down a steeping, steaming
bowl of delicious pasta.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
But you can come. You can't say no to that.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
I never said that, never said that also, our chicken
parm is unbelievable too, Like you know, most people like
Delvin editbit Ava right now, our chip jails absolutely.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Hey, I'm not sure if you saw this, Joe, But
there was an English rocker who passed away recently, Chris Ria.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
If you heard of Chris Ria, I don't.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
He was the guy who maybe this comes to your
mind here, fool if you think it's over, yeah, late
nineteen seventies. But he was mostly known for and I
actually had not heard of this song Driving home for Christmas.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
He recorded this song.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
He actually wrote it for Van Morrison in nineteen seventy eight,
and he wasn't even sure if Van Morrison ever really
saw it or he definitely didn't do anything with it.
So eight years later Chris Ria puts it out on
the B side of a single. There's probably people out
there like what is a single?
Speaker 3 (38:55):
What is a B side?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
But anyway, it was out there and it became a
hit for him, and you know, tragically or right, he
passed away three days before Christmas. But I had not
heard that song. Apparently it's it's really popular obviously this
time of year. Driving home for Christmas, I bring it
up Joe because he just had some quotes and reading
some stuff about him in his oh bit around here.
(39:20):
We'd like to talk a lot about what your intentions are, right.
We're big fans of pure intentions. You do something because
you're passionate about it, you want to do a good job.
You don't do it because it's designed to what the
result is. You're not playing for the echoes, you know,
you just want the sound of a job well done.
And he actually said and he was popular, don't get
(39:41):
me wrong, but he probably could have been even more popular.
He said, I'm in that unique club where I went
into music because I love music, not to be rich
and famous. Looking at my career, the progress has been slow,
mainly because I haven't gotten out of my way to
sell myself. I thought it was really pretty cool for
a guy who obviously was a very talented musician did
(40:03):
have success. But he was the one who said, basically,
I went to music because I love music, and that
was it.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
That's pure intentions, absolutely, And I didn't.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
You know. I think you got into what you did
because of that, and I think I did with mine too.
I mean, it's just the success occurs because your passion
is driven in a pure way I think. Man, I
mean I since I was six, I wanted to be
a major league baseball player, and I know that, but
as a better football player, so I get to college
because of that. But baseball is always my passion. And
(40:33):
then I never for once as I'm working my way
as a scout coming up and then eventually as a
minor league player, coach, manager, whatever, and then big league guy.
I always my eye was always on the ball regarding
I'm doing what I love to do. And I always
believe that if I did that well enough, all this
(40:53):
other stuff would take care of itself. That that was
pretty much my mantra from from the beginning, you know,
to arrive at the point that I have or did
you know? Sometimes I'll be in a situation and all
of a sudden, like the other night, we had our
big event at Alva our thanksmis dude. Within five weeks
we had almost two hundred people in that building and
(41:14):
raised eighty five thousand bucks for the homeless situation. It
was like, so I stepped back from that, I go, WHOA,
which just happened here? And you know, obviously it is
because a lot of it's what we've accomplished in you know,
my baseball care, et cetera, and the people that I've met.
But the intent was never that. It was only to
(41:34):
to fulfill this passion. You know, when you smell and
you put your glove away in a wintertime and wrap
it in a place plastic bag, put some glovolume on it,
which made it like ten pounds, which was dumb, but
then you would open every once a while just to
smell your glove. When you're a kid, right, and then
you look outside and just can't wait to get somewhat
warm enough to go out there and play catcher or
(41:55):
just take some batting practice. And then you go to
Connie Maax eighty for the first time, you walk through
the clown's mouth out to see this green field. That's magic.
That's magic. And I don't know that you know, children
today are able to experience the magic that we felt
only because everything's so common and ubiquitous and streamed and
(42:18):
it's so it's not as unique. You didn't have to
work as hard to experience these things that we had
to work so hard to experience the things that we loved.
So anyway, yeah, it was all about I've always wanted
to do this. It is my passion. Never once thought
about fame, fortune, et cetera. I just I did think
(42:38):
about winning. I'll say that much. Even as a kid. Well,
you played for the State Trooper Eagles and Richie and
Rabbits and sway your coaches if you not winning was
not an option. It was not an option. So that
was in bred when I was from I was ten.
But it was all based I think on more altruism
and pure intentions to do the right thing and played
a game to win. That's all we ever did.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Yeah, I mean listen, winning as part of the passion.
Speaker 5 (43:01):
You know that.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
By the way, when Chris ray I wrote Driving Home
for Christmas, uh, he was banned from driving at the time.
He had some issues he was dealing with. And you
think about sparks of a passion Joe. For Chris Raya,
it was he heard the an album from the James Gang.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Joe watsh remember that James Gang.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Absolutely yes, and he went.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Out and bought a guitar and that that was it,
that spark of inspiration like that, just he heard it
and it was moved so much by it, went out
and bought a guitar and became a great slide guitarist.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
I remember putting that tape that a track into my
sixty five Thunderbird as I was driving between jim Thorpe
and Eastern Pennsylvania, these back roads going back to school,
and I throw that James Gang tape into that eight track, man,
And those are the kind of things. I mean, you
talk about this time of the year, you're just you're
(43:56):
you're making it happen. But this is when I were going.
We're going back to Hazleton on on actually Christmas morning,
and as I drive from the airport back to home,
all this stuff's going to come rushing forward.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
So that was Chris Raya, passed away at the age
of seventy four. So here we are at the ninth inning, Joe,
time to close it out. What do you have for
us today? On the Book of Joe.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
You know, there was there was some quotes today about
you know, going Christmas is pretty much about going home,
and you just brought that up. But I went to
Fred Gaily Miracle on thirty fourth Street, the defense attorney
in that movie, and this is not just this's this
Christmas moment, but you know, just in our daily lives.
But this is great. Faith is believing in things when
(44:40):
common sense tells you not to. You know, we get
faced with that all the time on a daily basis.
Or your faith is tested, whether it's be religious faith
they you know, fath in, faith in people that you know,
faith in an industry or the industry that you may
work in, or the people that are in charge of you.
Things get tested daily. But so you have you have
(45:04):
to go beyond your common sensor. You know what the
general public might be parrotying or echoing at that point
the echo chamber. So believe in things when commons tells
you not to. That is true faith. And I want
to believe that I got some of that.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
That is a great message, especially at this time of year.
Never losing faith, never losing faith.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
Good stuff. Joe.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
We'll see you next time on the Book of Joe
and Merry Christmas.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
Thank you, Tommy, Merry Christmas. And I promise you to
big old Asaignia over the next couple of days.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
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