September 26, 2025 • 15 mins
George Noory and Dr. Gerard van Belle discuss efforts to discover evidence of life on Mars, how to increase children's interest in space and science, and the next group of astronauts that could go on a manned mission to the Moon or Mars.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome back, George nor with you, Doctor Gerard van Bell
with us, Gerard, Where do people get your book? Kiss?
Report on telescope arrays on the Moon.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
So this is something that's available online at the KISS website.
It's an interesting report of the next generation of observatories
which I would like to see on the surface of
the Moon.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Good for you.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Now, a lot of us would like to prefer that
if we're going to find anything on Mars, it's a
little green men. How significant is the microbial possibility?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
So I think that it's entirely likely. I think it's
a pretty interesting possibility, and it certainly has an opinion
that's shared by NASA, with a lot of their efforts
focused towards looking at at least fossilized life.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It's fascinating, though, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It's exciting. I'm sure that you know. It's the kind
of thing that you know, I have it within reach
where we could actually potentially be bring rocks back to
Earth that would have an evidence of that is very exciting.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
And NASA just announced that they've selected ten astronauts, some
of whom might be going on a Mars mission.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
In fact, we're very proud of one flag Staff native
from from my hometown here right now got selected as
part of that class, and it's you know, the the
the new generations of astronauts are probably going to get
manifested on that mission.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
We have had some guests on the program who will
swear up and down that they have spotted artifacts and
fossils on Mars from the rovers and they've just you know,
they they are bones, perhaps some animals. Who knows, what
do you think of that possibility?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So I'm maybe a little skeptical of that, but it
is the sort of thing that you know, they're they're
is a line of inquiry right now of trying to
find fossilized life and the expectation that's probably microbial. But
you know, those sorts of things range from both the
biosignatures like this, you know, the the findings of the
(02:15):
Perseverance rover, to things that are associated with the shapes
of the structures that you see that are you know,
maybe not like a bone you would think of like
a leg bone from from an animal or something, but
are things that at a very small scale are still
potentially the leftovers of previous biology, and so that's what's
(02:39):
being looked for. It's what's motivating this idea behind a
Mars sample return is bring stuff back where you have
really big laboratories, much more than you can miniaturize on
a rover, and look for the signs of life that
are either mineralogical, biological, or you know, things that just
look like a fossil.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Tell us about the observatory and Lowell and what that
telescope is like.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
So here in Flagstaff we have the Lowell Observatory, and
Lowells had interesting and long connection with Mars, where the
founder Perceval Loll, which we like to think is connected
to the name Perseverance for the Perseverance rover. The observatory
has been here about one hundred and thirty years and
Perceval Lowell founded it because he was interested in the
(03:27):
worlds around us and specifically Mars, and he thought that
he had evidence for what he thought he saw when
he was looking at Mars through our now historic Clark telescope,
and he thought he saw canals on Mars, and he
thought he saw evidence for life on Mars, which was
(03:50):
maybe a little speculative at the time, but really helped
fuel the imagination of people like H. G. Wells when
they wrote The War of the Worlds. You know, we
now have a brand new visitor center that just opened
that welcomes people to come and learn about that and
you know, look through telescopes themselves and make up their
minds about what they see when they look at Mars
(04:11):
or Saturn or some of the other planets out there.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Do you find that little kids are excited when they
come to the observatory?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
They are, And we regularly do meet in astronomer nights,
where you know, actual research astronomers like myself will be
there and answer questions from anybody. And it's the kids
questions which are so much fun because there's always you know,
I go there, say on a Saturday night for a
couple hours, and there's always that one kid who's like eight,
and you're like, oh, what are.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
You going to ask about?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
You don't even to ask about you know, you're the
stuffed animal you saw in the gift shop, and like no.
They want to know if black holes have hair and
this kind of thing, and you're like, whoa what what
and they're like, oh, well, the you know, the event
horizon of a black hole is defined by its mass
and the Schwartz shield radius, and this, you know, you're
like looking at this kid who's like eight, and he's
asking these questions, and these kids are so engage and
(05:00):
so excited about it.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
There was an astronomer, an Italian astronomer named Giovanni Schapparelli. Well,
what can you tell us about him?
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Chaparelli, when he was looking at Mars, he was describing
in his writings, and this was in kind of the
middle of the nineteenth century. He was describing the things
that he thought he saw, and he described them as
canali and so what he meant by that was just
the features he thought he saw on the surface of
(05:35):
this disc in the sky looking through his telescope. But
when Percival Lowell was reading about that, he felt that,
you know, he basically translated as canals, and that I
think maybe sparked some of his imagination of them being
artificial canals built by a race of Aliens that had
(05:56):
a drying out planet that needed to transfer the water
from polls to the equator, and you know, being you know,
evidence of actual intelligent life which has has not been
borne out by the investigations of say spacecraft we've sent there,
but in a strange way, you know, we're still pursuing
(06:17):
that imagination of personal lull in the idea that maybe
there at least has in the past been life on Mars,
and you know, we're looking for evidence of that.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
I assume Mars would be the same age as Earth,
about four and a half billion years old, right, correct, Yeah,
what do you think happened to the planet and what
do you think it was like billions of years ago?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
So the planet as you say it was, you know,
it's it's the same age as the Earth. They all
formed at the same time with the young Sun. But
in the past it's thought that it was warmer and wetter.
And the problem is is that Mars is actually quite
a bit smaller than Earth. It's physically about half the diameter,
(07:04):
and that means you have less mass, you have less
gravity holding things on the surface, in particular holding its
atmosphere in place, and so over billions of years, that
atmosphere which keeps you know, a warm blanket, and you know,
makes a particular place like Earth habitable, With a place
like Mars, it actually leaks and over a long period
(07:27):
of time. That means you get a thinner and thinner atmosphere.
It cools down and it becomes drier, and it becomes inhospitable.
And so it might have been hospitable in the past,
it might have been capable of supporting life, but now, yeah,
not so much, as far as you know, the dry
wasteland that it is now.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Is there any vegetation on Mars at all?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
None that we know of. One interesting thing about biosignatures
and looking for indotions of life anywhere is you can
actually do it pretty well from say telescopes right here
on Earth. And one of the things that people have
thought they might have detected on Mars is methane. Methane
(08:16):
is a molecule that can be built up by processes
that are not associated with life. So, for example, on Mars,
you could have volcanoes that are burping up reservoirs of methane,
but you could possibly also have that being sourced by
Mars by bacteria under the surface. You could potentially still
(08:41):
have that at Mars. Is a line of reasoning that
people are talking about, and so one of the things
that people are looking for is trying to find methane.
There's actually a spacecraft, the Trace Gas Orbiter that's there
looking specifically for that and following up on some earlier
potential detections of methane, and it's actually not promising with
(09:01):
with finding any of that. It looks like that's that's
not turning up any methane detections.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Tard yesterday, I had Seth Shostak on the program from
the SETI Institute Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. What do you
think of that organization used to be funded by NASA.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
And Bill Diamond, the director over there, is a good
friend of the observatory here at Loull. We uh, you know,
I think SETI is very interesting in how they are
looking for signs of life elsewhere in the nearby galaxy
and trying to see, if you know, are their radio signals,
are their optical signals that are associated with intelligent life?
(09:44):
And in fact I was just at a SETI workshop
with some of the people from the SETI Institute and
this was run by Penn State University. Jason right out
there run that workshop and a lot of talk about how,
you know, how would you find something that would uniquely
identify intelligent life elsewhere. One of the things that you
(10:04):
want to be able to do is come up with
indications that uniquely are associated with intelligence rather than some
kind of natural process. And so there's always this question
of you know, if you see something, is it interesting,
is it interesting enough to be associated with maybe that
kind of thing, you know? And is there no other
way you could produce that? And we've been certainly fooled
(10:26):
in the past of things that look artificial, and then
when you look harder, there's actually, you know, some process
we hadn't thought about that is producing it.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Perseverance has been on the planet around what four or
five years.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah, I had one of those exciting landings that the
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory specializes in with, you know, flying
in from interplanetary space at breakneck speed and then a
heat shield slows it down and then pops off, and
then you have parachutes that slow it down, and then
it deploys a skycrane that lowers the rover to the
(11:01):
ground and then flies off and the rovers there to
be able to cruise around the planet powered by its
nuclear battery. Pretty exciting mission.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
How long will that battery last.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Those batteries last actually a very long time. The similar
batteries are on board the Voyager one and Voyager two
spacecraft and now more recently the new Horizon spacecraft which
are on their way to interstellar space. And it's basically
just a lump of plutonium. It's the kind of plutonium
(11:38):
you can't use to make bombs, by the way, But
the plutonium, just as it's decaying, because it's a radioactive material,
gives off heat and then that heat gets converted into electricity,
and it's about as much electricity to run your desktop computer.
In fact, your desktop computer probably uses a bit more. Yeah,
(12:00):
and they last for decades.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
How many workable rovers are on Mars right now? Just
the one?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
So we have perseverance, there's curiosity. The previous ones, say
which ones where they opportunity and spirit are no longer working?
And the very earliest one from the Mars Pathfinder mission
in ninety six, the Sojourner, that's also gone quiet as well.
(12:32):
But yeah, the Mars is a planet inhabited entirely by robots.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
If the batteries last so long, why aren't they running.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
So the most recent two with curiosity and perseverance they're
the only they're the ones that actually have those batteries.
The previous ones have solar panels and eventually succumbed to
the degradation there. I think spirit got stuck in a
dust bog somewhere. So yeah, the you know, the the
conditions are very harsh. I think with say curiosity there.
(13:08):
You know, they found early on that the wheels were
getting holes in them, and so you know, there's you know,
it's just think of you know, being able to drive
your car around and have you know, no service for
you know, for many many years, and it just keeps
on going.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
We're going to take calls next hour with our special guest,
jurre Ad van Bell. His website is linked up at
coast tocoastdam dot com. So jump aboard and share a
story or a question about Mars and we will be
back in a moment a coast to coast. This is
exciting stuff, isn't it. When you were a kid, you
loved it, didn't you when you were a little boy.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So I remember as a grad student driving across you know,
the I was going to grad school in Wyoming and
going down to Arizona. We would drive late at night
and I would be listening to Coast to Coast with
that time Art Bell and so this is this is great.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
What a great feeling for you were You're doing a
great job for us, first time on the program, right.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yes, that's right.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah, I think a real pinnacle of my public outreach career.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Somebody wants to take up a career as an astronomer
or some kind of scientist, what do you recommend?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Yes, it's you know, it's challenging times right now. It's
support for science. But we do have a lot of
people at the Low Observatory that benefit from the donors
that we have and the people that come and visit us.
We get about one hundred and eighty thousand visitors a
year up on Mars Hill and they always come away
(14:40):
from a visit up at the Observatory with an extra
little stars in their eyes. And so it's great to
have people come and learn about that, and some of them,
we would like to think, get excited enough as kids
when they visit to go on to be scientists and
engineers and you know, build the things that you know,
make our society great.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Listen to more Coast to Coast am every weeknight at
one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam
dot com for more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome back, George nor with you, Doctor Gerard van Bell
with us, Gerard, Where do people get your book? Kiss?
Report on telescope arrays on the Moon.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
So this is something that's available online at the KISS website.
It's an interesting report of the next generation of observatories
which I would like to see on the surface of
the Moon.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Good for you.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Now, a lot of us would like to prefer that
if we're going to find anything on Mars, it's a
little green men. How significant is the microbial possibility?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
So I think that it's entirely likely. I think it's
a pretty interesting possibility, and it certainly has an opinion
that's shared by NASA, with a lot of their efforts
focused towards looking at at least fossilized life.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It's fascinating, though, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It's exciting. I'm sure that you know. It's the kind
of thing that you know, I have it within reach
where we could actually potentially be bring rocks back to
Earth that would have an evidence of that is very exciting.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
And NASA just announced that they've selected ten astronauts, some
of whom might be going on a Mars mission.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
In fact, we're very proud of one flag Staff native
from from my hometown here right now got selected as
part of that class, and it's you know, the the
the new generations of astronauts are probably going to get
manifested on that mission.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
We have had some guests on the program who will
swear up and down that they have spotted artifacts and
fossils on Mars from the rovers and they've just you know,
they they are bones, perhaps some animals. Who knows, what
do you think of that possibility?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So I'm maybe a little skeptical of that, but it
is the sort of thing that you know, they're they're
is a line of inquiry right now of trying to
find fossilized life and the expectation that's probably microbial. But
you know, those sorts of things range from both the
biosignatures like this, you know, the the findings of the
(02:15):
Perseverance rover, to things that are associated with the shapes
of the structures that you see that are you know,
maybe not like a bone you would think of like
a leg bone from from an animal or something, but
are things that at a very small scale are still
potentially the leftovers of previous biology, and so that's what's
(02:39):
being looked for. It's what's motivating this idea behind a
Mars sample return is bring stuff back where you have
really big laboratories, much more than you can miniaturize on
a rover, and look for the signs of life that
are either mineralogical, biological, or you know, things that just
look like a fossil.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Tell us about the observatory and Lowell and what that
telescope is like.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
So here in Flagstaff we have the Lowell Observatory, and
Lowells had interesting and long connection with Mars, where the
founder Perceval Loll, which we like to think is connected
to the name Perseverance for the Perseverance rover. The observatory
has been here about one hundred and thirty years and
Perceval Lowell founded it because he was interested in the
(03:27):
worlds around us and specifically Mars, and he thought that
he had evidence for what he thought he saw when
he was looking at Mars through our now historic Clark telescope,
and he thought he saw canals on Mars, and he
thought he saw evidence for life on Mars, which was
(03:50):
maybe a little speculative at the time, but really helped
fuel the imagination of people like H. G. Wells when
they wrote The War of the Worlds. You know, we
now have a brand new visitor center that just opened
that welcomes people to come and learn about that and
you know, look through telescopes themselves and make up their
minds about what they see when they look at Mars
(04:11):
or Saturn or some of the other planets out there.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Do you find that little kids are excited when they
come to the observatory?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
They are, And we regularly do meet in astronomer nights,
where you know, actual research astronomers like myself will be
there and answer questions from anybody. And it's the kids
questions which are so much fun because there's always you know,
I go there, say on a Saturday night for a
couple hours, and there's always that one kid who's like eight,
and you're like, oh, what are.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
You going to ask about?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
You don't even to ask about you know, you're the
stuffed animal you saw in the gift shop, and like no.
They want to know if black holes have hair and
this kind of thing, and you're like, whoa what what
and they're like, oh, well, the you know, the event
horizon of a black hole is defined by its mass
and the Schwartz shield radius, and this, you know, you're
like looking at this kid who's like eight, and he's
asking these questions, and these kids are so engage and
(05:00):
so excited about it.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
There was an astronomer, an Italian astronomer named Giovanni Schapparelli. Well,
what can you tell us about him?
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Chaparelli, when he was looking at Mars, he was describing
in his writings, and this was in kind of the
middle of the nineteenth century. He was describing the things
that he thought he saw, and he described them as
canali and so what he meant by that was just
the features he thought he saw on the surface of
(05:35):
this disc in the sky looking through his telescope. But
when Percival Lowell was reading about that, he felt that,
you know, he basically translated as canals, and that I
think maybe sparked some of his imagination of them being
artificial canals built by a race of Aliens that had
(05:56):
a drying out planet that needed to transfer the water
from polls to the equator, and you know, being you know,
evidence of actual intelligent life which has has not been
borne out by the investigations of say spacecraft we've sent there,
but in a strange way, you know, we're still pursuing
(06:17):
that imagination of personal lull in the idea that maybe
there at least has in the past been life on Mars,
and you know, we're looking for evidence of that.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
I assume Mars would be the same age as Earth,
about four and a half billion years old, right, correct, Yeah,
what do you think happened to the planet and what
do you think it was like billions of years ago?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
So the planet as you say it was, you know,
it's it's the same age as the Earth. They all
formed at the same time with the young Sun. But
in the past it's thought that it was warmer and wetter.
And the problem is is that Mars is actually quite
a bit smaller than Earth. It's physically about half the diameter,
(07:04):
and that means you have less mass, you have less
gravity holding things on the surface, in particular holding its
atmosphere in place, and so over billions of years, that
atmosphere which keeps you know, a warm blanket, and you know,
makes a particular place like Earth habitable, With a place
like Mars, it actually leaks and over a long period
(07:27):
of time. That means you get a thinner and thinner atmosphere.
It cools down and it becomes drier, and it becomes inhospitable.
And so it might have been hospitable in the past,
it might have been capable of supporting life, but now, yeah,
not so much, as far as you know, the dry
wasteland that it is now.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Is there any vegetation on Mars at all?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
None that we know of. One interesting thing about biosignatures
and looking for indotions of life anywhere is you can
actually do it pretty well from say telescopes right here
on Earth. And one of the things that people have
thought they might have detected on Mars is methane. Methane
(08:16):
is a molecule that can be built up by processes
that are not associated with life. So, for example, on Mars,
you could have volcanoes that are burping up reservoirs of methane,
but you could possibly also have that being sourced by
Mars by bacteria under the surface. You could potentially still
(08:41):
have that at Mars. Is a line of reasoning that
people are talking about, and so one of the things
that people are looking for is trying to find methane.
There's actually a spacecraft, the Trace Gas Orbiter that's there
looking specifically for that and following up on some earlier
potential detections of methane, and it's actually not promising with
(09:01):
with finding any of that. It looks like that's that's
not turning up any methane detections.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Tard yesterday, I had Seth Shostak on the program from
the SETI Institute Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. What do you
think of that organization used to be funded by NASA.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
And Bill Diamond, the director over there, is a good
friend of the observatory here at Loull. We uh, you know,
I think SETI is very interesting in how they are
looking for signs of life elsewhere in the nearby galaxy
and trying to see, if you know, are their radio signals,
are their optical signals that are associated with intelligent life?
(09:44):
And in fact I was just at a SETI workshop
with some of the people from the SETI Institute and
this was run by Penn State University. Jason right out
there run that workshop and a lot of talk about how,
you know, how would you find something that would uniquely
identify intelligent life elsewhere. One of the things that you
(10:04):
want to be able to do is come up with
indications that uniquely are associated with intelligence rather than some
kind of natural process. And so there's always this question
of you know, if you see something, is it interesting,
is it interesting enough to be associated with maybe that
kind of thing, you know? And is there no other
way you could produce that? And we've been certainly fooled
(10:26):
in the past of things that look artificial, and then
when you look harder, there's actually, you know, some process
we hadn't thought about that is producing it.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Perseverance has been on the planet around what four or
five years.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah, I had one of those exciting landings that the
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory specializes in with, you know, flying
in from interplanetary space at breakneck speed and then a
heat shield slows it down and then pops off, and
then you have parachutes that slow it down, and then
it deploys a skycrane that lowers the rover to the
(11:01):
ground and then flies off and the rovers there to
be able to cruise around the planet powered by its
nuclear battery. Pretty exciting mission.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
How long will that battery last.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Those batteries last actually a very long time. The similar
batteries are on board the Voyager one and Voyager two
spacecraft and now more recently the new Horizon spacecraft which
are on their way to interstellar space. And it's basically
just a lump of plutonium. It's the kind of plutonium
(11:38):
you can't use to make bombs, by the way, But
the plutonium, just as it's decaying, because it's a radioactive material,
gives off heat and then that heat gets converted into electricity,
and it's about as much electricity to run your desktop computer.
In fact, your desktop computer probably uses a bit more. Yeah,
(12:00):
and they last for decades.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
How many workable rovers are on Mars right now? Just
the one?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
So we have perseverance, there's curiosity. The previous ones, say
which ones where they opportunity and spirit are no longer working?
And the very earliest one from the Mars Pathfinder mission
in ninety six, the Sojourner, that's also gone quiet as well.
(12:32):
But yeah, the Mars is a planet inhabited entirely by robots.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
If the batteries last so long, why aren't they running.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
So the most recent two with curiosity and perseverance they're
the only they're the ones that actually have those batteries.
The previous ones have solar panels and eventually succumbed to
the degradation there. I think spirit got stuck in a
dust bog somewhere. So yeah, the you know, the the
conditions are very harsh. I think with say curiosity there.
(13:08):
You know, they found early on that the wheels were
getting holes in them, and so you know, there's you know,
it's just think of you know, being able to drive
your car around and have you know, no service for
you know, for many many years, and it just keeps
on going.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
We're going to take calls next hour with our special guest,
jurre Ad van Bell. His website is linked up at
coast tocoastdam dot com. So jump aboard and share a
story or a question about Mars and we will be
back in a moment a coast to coast. This is
exciting stuff, isn't it. When you were a kid, you
loved it, didn't you when you were a little boy.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So I remember as a grad student driving across you know,
the I was going to grad school in Wyoming and
going down to Arizona. We would drive late at night
and I would be listening to Coast to Coast with
that time Art Bell and so this is this is great.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
What a great feeling for you were You're doing a
great job for us, first time on the program, right.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yes, that's right.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah, I think a real pinnacle of my public outreach career.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Somebody wants to take up a career as an astronomer
or some kind of scientist, what do you recommend?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Yes, it's you know, it's challenging times right now. It's
support for science. But we do have a lot of
people at the Low Observatory that benefit from the donors
that we have and the people that come and visit us.
We get about one hundred and eighty thousand visitors a
year up on Mars Hill and they always come away
(14:40):
from a visit up at the Observatory with an extra
little stars in their eyes. And so it's great to
have people come and learn about that, and some of them,
we would like to think, get excited enough as kids
when they visit to go on to be scientists and
engineers and you know, build the things that you know,
make our society great.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
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