October 19, 2025 • 16 mins
Guest host Richard Syrett and author/lawyer Christopher Johnston discuss reimagining one of history's most debated mysteries as a courtroom drama.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
We were talking earlier about the public information officer. How
does he explain his about face on the stand if
he does, you know, issuing the famous flying disc press release,
then retracting it hours later and calling it a weather balloon.
Did the attorney challenge him on the stand about that
(00:27):
he does?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
But and again how in real life, as the kids say,
you know, contended.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Following orders.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
And so that's how he essentially explained it away. In
my book, it was, Hey, you know, I was told this,
I issued the press release.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
I was told that I issued the new press release.
And then the lawyers would.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Get into kind of ancillary things as far as well,
how long you've been issuing these press releases. So you know,
if you're the skeptics attorney, have you ever issued attraction before?
And you know they're going to find something right that
because people make mistakes, and then they're going to hang
your hat on. So you know, it's not unheard of
somebody makes a mistake. And so that's how how it
(01:12):
would go about it. And that leads me back to
the best the best witness for the skeptics My opinion
is Ramie himself, who really did kind of the smart thing.
It would be nice if people did in this day
and age. I think when Rami came out and essentially said, yeah,
we made a mistake, moving on, you know, he really
(01:34):
didn't give it a.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Whole heck of a lot of time and day.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
So, you know, and it's telling Ramie like kind of
talked to he's sort of the opposite of Brazzle, right, Rami,
he's a general, he's a smart guy. He went on
what took over the new branch of the Air Force.
He's going to come across as very credible. So on
the skeptic side for a guy like Rami, Yep, we
made a mistake.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
It's okay, compelling. What's the jury going to do with that? Right? Right?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Right? And I no doubt the skeptics. Lawyer also introduced
Project Mogul, this classified balloon program to detect Soviet nuclear tests.
How do they how do they use that to explain
away the debris?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Well, you know, the.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Old story goes they pop up with, you know, Project Mogul,
But you know that was after a couple of you know,
goes to saying there was nothing there and that's the
nice thing that you know about. You know, if you
were playing to flawyer on this. I tell my clients
this all the time. I'm no smarter than you are,
(02:41):
but this is my job, and if you're going to
lie to me, I'm going to catch you because the
more you talk, the more backstory you build.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Just the more opportunity there is for it. So you know,
we've got what.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
From forty seven to ninety three when the government came
out with you know, their.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Operation Project Closed or whatever the.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Heck name they gave to it. You know, their version
of events changed four or five times along the way.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
So back to kind of your point that you had
brought up earlier, Well, were you lie in then or then?
Or then or then? Right? And that is really damning
in front of the jury.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Most Coast listeners will be very familiar with Major Jesse
Marcel and his let's call it testimony has become legendary.
How just walk us through a little bit of his testimony,
how he describes the debris and what convinced him it
wasn't man made?
Speaker 4 (03:39):
MH.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Well, as you mentioned his story, boy, I bet most
of your listeners could kind of write his story but
you know on the stand, it's the it was you
would go through and first to establish his credentials, you know,
and he's seen some stuff, he's done some stuff, and
now he'd be on the.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Stand, and that's a great question. Who's going to call him?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I called him as a believer witness.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
But you get him on the stand, you lay the
foundation that you know, he's no chump, he's seen, he's.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Been around, and what did you find? And then you know,
and what did it look like? So when you're when
they're your own witness, it's direct, direct exam and so
it has to be these open ended questions.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
So it's you know, what did you see? Well, you know,
I saw this debris? What did it look like?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
You know in the painstaking the what did.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
You try to bend it?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Yeah, I did? What happened?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
And you'd walk him through, you know, how would kind
of go back, couldn't be bent, couldn't be ripped, and
you go through sort of those sorts of angles, and
then I would anytime you have a bad fact, it
doesn't matter what side you're on. So it makes it
a little easier and you're the plaintiff if you have
a bad fact. You have to get out in front
(04:58):
of it. You have to be the one that brings
it up, because you can bring it up and make
it no big deal and just sort of dismiss it.
If you let the other side bring it up, they're
gonna kill you.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
What's the bad fact? What's the bad fact with Jesse Marcel?
Speaker 4 (05:13):
Well, okay, the bad fact is this.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
Everyone hangs their hat, and Jesse hangs his hat on
the fact that well, yeah, in the famous photos right
where I'm holding the material and I'm looking up and
I'm looking over a brainy and that wasn't the same stuff.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
But I was doing it because I was following orders.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Okay, right, well, well, okay, Well one of the bad
facts is well, okay, you're, you know, a soldier rule follower.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
But she took the stuff home.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
And you showed it to your family, right, and you
can you can kind of you can undercut with that,
because that's exactly what the defense would do. You know,
they'd really build him up to be, you know, a
soldier of the year and then start, you know, picking
away with the procedure that he didn't follow. So that's
a relatively bad fact, but it's a very interesting bad
(06:05):
fact because by taking the material home, he.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Essentially created additional witnesses to the material, right, Jesse Junior.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Right, So it's you know, if he was my client,
I'd be pretty upset that he now got to deal
with this. But at the same time, I'd say, well,
the benefit of having these other witnesses probably outweighs the
fact that you maybe shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Have done that, you know, right, right, Glen Dennis, the mortician, testifying,
of course the base ordered small coffins, child sized coffins
and was asked about body preservation. How did the skeptics
lawyer handle that explosive claim in your courtroom?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Well, he actually would handle it great. And I want
to preface all of this as you know, as your
listeners know.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
You know, in this seventy year long game of telephone
right that has been going on since Roswell, it can
be very tough to know exactly what was said at
what time and what you know, what actually happened.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
What obviously we don't know what actually happened.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
But to deal with Glenn Dennis, everyone and their brother.
Prior to me writing this book, I always heard the
same story. Glenn Dennis is asked if he had these
little coffins, you know, hermetically sealed, you know, Yes, I do,
and he took them out to the base. Well, you
start digging into that, and I found two interviews with
(07:38):
Glenn Dennis in which he said, Yep, they called for
the coffins, which still admittedly is kind of weird. But
I didn't have them. I told them I could get them,
but it would be a day or two, okay. But
then Glenn Dennis decides of his own volition, even though
he didn't have these little coffins, he's going to go
out to the base anyway, and this is where he.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Encounters the mysterious nurse. So kind of save that for,
you know, down the road here.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
But yes, Glen Dennis, if one of the lawyers hadn't
done their homework and he wants to, you know, go
up with you know, and I had these little coffins
and I went out there.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Well, I have interviews with.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Glen Dennis that you know, the opposite lawyer.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Is going to tear them up. You know again, what
was it was it? You had them and you went,
and you didn't have them and you went.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It seems like and that's a big fact that you
would expect somebody to be clear on from the first minute, right.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Right, precisely, did you call Sergeant Melvin Brown to the stand?
Who this is the gentleman who allegedly saw the alien bodies?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
I did call Melvin Brown to the stand, and his
story when my research went a lot like Glen Dennis's, Yep,
I saw these bodies.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
Then later it was well.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
I kind of saw through the opaque sides of you know,
the makeshift infirmary something that could have been bodies. So again,
and as I said earlier, that's exactly why I called
these guys as witnesses. They had great testimony, but they
can be relatively easily impeached. So are they believable or not?
(09:23):
You tell me, Jerry, Yeah, So Melvin Brown, Yeah, you
don't hear his name, you know, as regularly as you
hear the other ones. But yeah, I thought he was
a pretty interesting enough he made the cut from my book.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Right, tell me about well the believers also called experts
like doctor Lincoln Lapaz and doctor Robert Starbacker. What did
their scientific and insider testimony add to the case.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Well, you have to, you know, every trial has to
have experts.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So I like the way this is going on, which
I can interestper some some real life law here. So
a common objection that people might hear if they're watching
a movie or what is objection?
Speaker 4 (10:07):
It's foundation. Okay, So what that would mean is, like
I do a lot of kind of medical malpractice and
work like that.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
You and I, even though I'm the lawyer and say
you're the client, we can't go into court and talk
about medical procedures. We can't go in and talk about
accident reconstructions things like that. You have to have an expert,
somebody that has been determined they have quote foundation to
(10:36):
give an opinion.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
It's opinion testimony is what it is. And you have
to be an expert to give opinion testimony.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
So that's why we work the experts into the trial
and into the book. And so Lincoln la Pause going in,
I mean, he's kind of known for me and you know,
kind of a smart skeptic. He's pretty well respect and
another reason I chose him. He's well respected, but he's
(11:04):
kind of anti Roswell.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
So again good witness to use on that whole thing.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah, Lapause came out and he I think his initial
story was that they were.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
He believed there were satellites.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
But so again you put you put the expert in there,
just adds weight, it adds credibility, and they decide what
they want to do.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
And you know the same thing with Sarbacher. And I'm
flipping a page here in my book.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
There's a picture I wanted to look at, but again
it was hard. I don't have you know, there really
isn't an expert so to speak for the believers, because
of course that you know that that's another challenge in
a case like this. The defendants essentially would be the
(11:56):
United States government. They've got, you know, and that's how
it often is the the little guy going up against
the big guy. And the big guys, you know, has
the money, and so they bring in these you know,
quote unquote experts, who a lot of them are just
you know, I can tell you what the reports are
going to say before I even see him.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
We know, we all know the whole story about it.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
But yeah, Starbacker, he was you know, smart, brilliant, a
couple he was a physicist, you know, a couple of degrees,
you know, the PhDs. I think he was a Harvard
grand So really smart guy, and you know he came out.
It was interesting Starbacker really started he looked at Roswell
(12:40):
in the fifties.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
But then he kind of got back and got popular
with it back in the eighties. And he says that,
you know, he was another one saying that this wasn't
the case.
Speaker 6 (12:53):
So that the quote experts tend to line up, but
they tend to be more very very science driven, you
know type of folks, and folks like that are just
always going to be hard to get.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Off the dime, right right right.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I think you also called or one of the lawyers
in this courtroom drama called Philip Class, the famous UFO
de Bunker, to testify. How did he make his case
to the jury?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Oh? Justin yeah, so so Class. Yeah, he's another one,
that interesting guy. And I am and I apologize Richard
into your listeners.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
I'm flipping pages. That's all right.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I didn't want to put you on the spot there,
but it's it's important, I think, you know, for people
to know that he's included among the witnesses. Yes, any
big surprises you encountered while weighing these witnesses side by
side in terms of who came off more credible who didn't.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Uh yeah, well yes, and I kind of felt prey
to this, you know, as we do. So I had
put together my witness list and I was interested kind
of you know, as I'm going through it, kind of.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Well, who am I? Who am I going to like?
Who am I going to think is really going to
carry the day?
Speaker 7 (14:14):
And Brazil, who we've talked about, he wasn't even really
on my radar, is you know he brasel had to
be a witness, but he was just going to kickstart
the narrative.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
He wasn't going to carry the day as far as
I was concerned.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
So, yes, I was really surprised about that.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
How strongly I came to believe that he was the guy.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
I found that interesting. You know, one thing that I.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Kind of uncovered, and this is one hundred percent on point,
but not necessarily in my book, but kind of an
angle I started taking was you know that I think
one of the widely accepted that stories is after the
fact breed and the bodies, everything was sent to Fort
(15:03):
Worth and then from fort Worth it was sent to
right pat It's what, you know, a story, A lot
of this kind of been here to well, I started
looking at it you know, from the extraterrestrial angle. So
if there were bodies, if we are to believe that,
I can understand having craft sent to Right Pat. But
(15:25):
the more I thought about it, and then I started
doing some digging, Right Pat didn't even have a full
hospital until like nineteen fifty seven. So if you have
extraterrestrial bodies, why in the world would you send them
to Right Pat. Wouldn't you send them to Walter Reed
Army Medical Hospital.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Wouldn't you send him to the presidio?
Speaker 3 (15:46):
And I never found much research beyond yep, everything went,
everything went off to Right Pat.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
But it was just a this angle I had never
heard before.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
I hadn't really heard it dressed, and I just kind
of came across it, you know.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Partner parcel by Research.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Listen to more Coast to Coast a m every weeknight
at one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to
coastam dot com for more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
We were talking earlier about the public information officer. How
does he explain his about face on the stand if
he does, you know, issuing the famous flying disc press release,
then retracting it hours later and calling it a weather balloon.
Did the attorney challenge him on the stand about that
(00:27):
he does?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
But and again how in real life, as the kids say,
you know, contended.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Following orders.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
And so that's how he essentially explained it away. In
my book, it was, Hey, you know, I was told this,
I issued the press release.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
I was told that I issued the new press release.
And then the lawyers would.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Get into kind of ancillary things as far as well,
how long you've been issuing these press releases. So you know,
if you're the skeptics attorney, have you ever issued attraction before?
And you know they're going to find something right that
because people make mistakes, and then they're going to hang
your hat on. So you know, it's not unheard of
somebody makes a mistake. And so that's how how it
(01:12):
would go about it. And that leads me back to
the best the best witness for the skeptics My opinion
is Ramie himself, who really did kind of the smart thing.
It would be nice if people did in this day
and age. I think when Rami came out and essentially said, yeah,
we made a mistake, moving on, you know, he really
(01:34):
didn't give it a.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Whole heck of a lot of time and day.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
So, you know, and it's telling Ramie like kind of
talked to he's sort of the opposite of Brazzle, right, Rami,
he's a general, he's a smart guy. He went on
what took over the new branch of the Air Force.
He's going to come across as very credible. So on
the skeptic side for a guy like Rami, Yep, we
made a mistake.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
It's okay, compelling. What's the jury going to do with that? Right? Right?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Right? And I no doubt the skeptics. Lawyer also introduced
Project Mogul, this classified balloon program to detect Soviet nuclear tests.
How do they how do they use that to explain
away the debris?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Well, you know, the.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Old story goes they pop up with, you know, Project Mogul,
But you know that was after a couple of you know,
goes to saying there was nothing there and that's the
nice thing that you know about. You know, if you
were playing to flawyer on this. I tell my clients
this all the time. I'm no smarter than you are,
(02:41):
but this is my job, and if you're going to
lie to me, I'm going to catch you because the
more you talk, the more backstory you build.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Just the more opportunity there is for it. So you know,
we've got what.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
From forty seven to ninety three when the government came
out with you know, their.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Operation Project Closed or whatever the.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Heck name they gave to it. You know, their version
of events changed four or five times along the way.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
So back to kind of your point that you had
brought up earlier, Well, were you lie in then or then?
Or then or then? Right? And that is really damning
in front of the jury.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Most Coast listeners will be very familiar with Major Jesse
Marcel and his let's call it testimony has become legendary.
How just walk us through a little bit of his testimony,
how he describes the debris and what convinced him it
wasn't man made?
Speaker 4 (03:39):
MH.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Well, as you mentioned his story, boy, I bet most
of your listeners could kind of write his story but
you know on the stand, it's the it was you
would go through and first to establish his credentials, you know,
and he's seen some stuff, he's done some stuff, and
now he'd be on the.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Stand, and that's a great question. Who's going to call him?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I called him as a believer witness.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
But you get him on the stand, you lay the
foundation that you know, he's no chump, he's seen, he's.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Been around, and what did you find? And then you know,
and what did it look like? So when you're when
they're your own witness, it's direct, direct exam and so
it has to be these open ended questions.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
So it's you know, what did you see? Well, you know,
I saw this debris? What did it look like?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
You know in the painstaking the what did.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
You try to bend it?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Yeah, I did? What happened?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
And you'd walk him through, you know, how would kind
of go back, couldn't be bent, couldn't be ripped, and
you go through sort of those sorts of angles, and
then I would anytime you have a bad fact, it
doesn't matter what side you're on. So it makes it
a little easier and you're the plaintiff if you have
a bad fact. You have to get out in front
(04:58):
of it. You have to be the one that brings
it up, because you can bring it up and make
it no big deal and just sort of dismiss it.
If you let the other side bring it up, they're
gonna kill you.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
What's the bad fact? What's the bad fact with Jesse Marcel?
Speaker 4 (05:13):
Well, okay, the bad fact is this.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
Everyone hangs their hat, and Jesse hangs his hat on
the fact that well, yeah, in the famous photos right
where I'm holding the material and I'm looking up and
I'm looking over a brainy and that wasn't the same stuff.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
But I was doing it because I was following orders.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Okay, right, well, well, okay, Well one of the bad
facts is well, okay, you're, you know, a soldier rule follower.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
But she took the stuff home.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
And you showed it to your family, right, and you
can you can kind of you can undercut with that,
because that's exactly what the defense would do. You know,
they'd really build him up to be, you know, a
soldier of the year and then start, you know, picking
away with the procedure that he didn't follow. So that's
a relatively bad fact, but it's a very interesting bad
(06:05):
fact because by taking the material home, he.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Essentially created additional witnesses to the material, right, Jesse Junior.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Right, So it's you know, if he was my client,
I'd be pretty upset that he now got to deal
with this. But at the same time, I'd say, well,
the benefit of having these other witnesses probably outweighs the
fact that you maybe shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Have done that, you know, right, right, Glen Dennis, the mortician, testifying,
of course the base ordered small coffins, child sized coffins
and was asked about body preservation. How did the skeptics
lawyer handle that explosive claim in your courtroom?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Well, he actually would handle it great. And I want
to preface all of this as you know, as your
listeners know.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
You know, in this seventy year long game of telephone
right that has been going on since Roswell, it can
be very tough to know exactly what was said at
what time and what you know, what actually happened.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
What obviously we don't know what actually happened.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
But to deal with Glenn Dennis, everyone and their brother.
Prior to me writing this book, I always heard the
same story. Glenn Dennis is asked if he had these
little coffins, you know, hermetically sealed, you know, Yes, I do,
and he took them out to the base. Well, you
start digging into that, and I found two interviews with
(07:38):
Glenn Dennis in which he said, Yep, they called for
the coffins, which still admittedly is kind of weird. But
I didn't have them. I told them I could get them,
but it would be a day or two, okay. But
then Glenn Dennis decides of his own volition, even though
he didn't have these little coffins, he's going to go
out to the base anyway, and this is where he.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Encounters the mysterious nurse. So kind of save that for,
you know, down the road here.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
But yes, Glen Dennis, if one of the lawyers hadn't
done their homework and he wants to, you know, go
up with you know, and I had these little coffins
and I went out there.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Well, I have interviews with.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Glen Dennis that you know, the opposite lawyer.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Is going to tear them up. You know again, what
was it was it? You had them and you went,
and you didn't have them and you went.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It seems like and that's a big fact that you
would expect somebody to be clear on from the first minute, right.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Right, precisely, did you call Sergeant Melvin Brown to the stand?
Who this is the gentleman who allegedly saw the alien bodies?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
I did call Melvin Brown to the stand, and his
story when my research went a lot like Glen Dennis's, Yep,
I saw these bodies.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
Then later it was well.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
I kind of saw through the opaque sides of you know,
the makeshift infirmary something that could have been bodies. So again,
and as I said earlier, that's exactly why I called
these guys as witnesses. They had great testimony, but they
can be relatively easily impeached. So are they believable or not?
(09:23):
You tell me, Jerry, Yeah, So Melvin Brown, Yeah, you
don't hear his name, you know, as regularly as you
hear the other ones. But yeah, I thought he was
a pretty interesting enough he made the cut from my book.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Right, tell me about well the believers also called experts
like doctor Lincoln Lapaz and doctor Robert Starbacker. What did
their scientific and insider testimony add to the case.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Well, you have to, you know, every trial has to
have experts.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So I like the way this is going on, which
I can interestper some some real life law here. So
a common objection that people might hear if they're watching
a movie or what is objection?
Speaker 4 (10:07):
It's foundation. Okay, So what that would mean is, like
I do a lot of kind of medical malpractice and
work like that.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
You and I, even though I'm the lawyer and say
you're the client, we can't go into court and talk
about medical procedures. We can't go in and talk about
accident reconstructions things like that. You have to have an expert,
somebody that has been determined they have quote foundation to
(10:36):
give an opinion.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
It's opinion testimony is what it is. And you have
to be an expert to give opinion testimony.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
So that's why we work the experts into the trial
and into the book. And so Lincoln la Pause going in,
I mean, he's kind of known for me and you know,
kind of a smart skeptic. He's pretty well respect and
another reason I chose him. He's well respected, but he's
(11:04):
kind of anti Roswell.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
So again good witness to use on that whole thing.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah, Lapause came out and he I think his initial
story was that they were.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
He believed there were satellites.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
But so again you put you put the expert in there,
just adds weight, it adds credibility, and they decide what
they want to do.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
And you know the same thing with Sarbacher. And I'm
flipping a page here in my book.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
There's a picture I wanted to look at, but again
it was hard. I don't have you know, there really
isn't an expert so to speak for the believers, because
of course that you know that that's another challenge in
a case like this. The defendants essentially would be the
(11:56):
United States government. They've got, you know, and that's how
it often is the the little guy going up against
the big guy. And the big guys, you know, has
the money, and so they bring in these you know,
quote unquote experts, who a lot of them are just
you know, I can tell you what the reports are
going to say before I even see him.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
We know, we all know the whole story about it.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
But yeah, Starbacker, he was you know, smart, brilliant, a
couple he was a physicist, you know, a couple of degrees,
you know, the PhDs. I think he was a Harvard
grand So really smart guy, and you know he came out.
It was interesting Starbacker really started he looked at Roswell
(12:40):
in the fifties.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
But then he kind of got back and got popular
with it back in the eighties. And he says that,
you know, he was another one saying that this wasn't
the case.
Speaker 6 (12:53):
So that the quote experts tend to line up, but
they tend to be more very very science driven, you
know type of folks, and folks like that are just
always going to be hard to get.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Off the dime, right right right.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I think you also called or one of the lawyers
in this courtroom drama called Philip Class, the famous UFO
de Bunker, to testify. How did he make his case
to the jury?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Oh? Justin yeah, so so Class. Yeah, he's another one,
that interesting guy. And I am and I apologize Richard
into your listeners.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
I'm flipping pages. That's all right.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I didn't want to put you on the spot there,
but it's it's important, I think, you know, for people
to know that he's included among the witnesses. Yes, any
big surprises you encountered while weighing these witnesses side by
side in terms of who came off more credible who didn't.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Uh yeah, well yes, and I kind of felt prey
to this, you know, as we do. So I had
put together my witness list and I was interested kind
of you know, as I'm going through it, kind of.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Well, who am I? Who am I going to like?
Who am I going to think is really going to
carry the day?
Speaker 7 (14:14):
And Brazil, who we've talked about, he wasn't even really
on my radar, is you know he brasel had to
be a witness, but he was just going to kickstart
the narrative.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
He wasn't going to carry the day as far as
I was concerned.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
So, yes, I was really surprised about that.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
How strongly I came to believe that he was the guy.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
I found that interesting. You know, one thing that I.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Kind of uncovered, and this is one hundred percent on point,
but not necessarily in my book, but kind of an
angle I started taking was you know that I think
one of the widely accepted that stories is after the
fact breed and the bodies, everything was sent to Fort
(15:03):
Worth and then from fort Worth it was sent to
right pat It's what, you know, a story, A lot
of this kind of been here to well, I started
looking at it you know, from the extraterrestrial angle. So
if there were bodies, if we are to believe that,
I can understand having craft sent to Right Pat. But
(15:25):
the more I thought about it, and then I started
doing some digging, Right Pat didn't even have a full
hospital until like nineteen fifty seven. So if you have
extraterrestrial bodies, why in the world would you send them
to Right Pat. Wouldn't you send them to Walter Reed
Army Medical Hospital.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Wouldn't you send him to the presidio?
Speaker 3 (15:46):
And I never found much research beyond yep, everything went,
everything went off to Right Pat.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
But it was just a this angle I had never
heard before.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
I hadn't really heard it dressed, and I just kind
of came across it, you know.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Partner parcel by Research.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
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