December 21, 2025 • 13 mins
Guest host Rich Berra and paranormal researcher Alex Matsuo discuss obscure Christmas lore.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
We're kind of talking about the lesser known Christmas monsters.
Maybe that that people haven't heard it, but I think
people know about Crampus now because maybe the movie. But
will you explain the Christmas lore of Crampis which sounds
terrifying to me?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Oh? Absolutely so Crampis.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Yes, you are right, Crampus has become really popular in
the last couple of years. Dare I say even like
even like since last Christmas.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I didn't know about it when I was a kid,
and I'm glad I did not know what about it
when I was a kid. That would have been terrifying.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
I mean for me, I probably would have behaved a
lot more if I knew about Crampis.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Uh uh. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
So Crampis is from Alpine folklore, and one could argue
that Crampus even pre dates Christmas itself. So you have Crampis,
who is kind of like almost like an anti Santa
Claus type of figure.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
So, you know, while we had.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Santa who rewarded the good kids and maybe gave some
hole to the naughty kids, Crampis is this humanoid goat
like creature. And so usually how Crampis would work is
he works alongside Santa Claus. So Santa and him have
or Saint Nicholas. Uh, so they had this good cop
(01:19):
back coop dynamic happening.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
And on the night.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Of December fifth, which is known as Crampus knocked, Uh,
Saint Nicholas and Crampus would go door to door and uh,
you know, Saint Nicholas would give gifts to the good,
to the good kids, and then Crampus would punish the
naughty kids. However, the way that he punished kids wasn't
giving them coal.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Actually coal would probably be like.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
The the nicer, the nicer end of it, uh, the.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Nicer end of it. So usually uh, it depends on
which region you're looking into.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Crampus will either beat children with birch sticks, put them
in his basket and take them back to Hell with him,
or he'll put he'll put them in his sack and
eat them alive in his.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
The most wonderful time of the year. Exactly what is terrifying? Right? Terrifying?
Speaker 4 (02:17):
And if that wasn't enough, so a lot of area,
a lot of areas in Germany, actually all over the
world now they have this event called well it's called
crompas knocked, like I said, but they would have this
event called a crampus loft, which is basically a parade
of all the people in the town dressing up as
crampis and having or crompus for my German speaking friends,
(02:42):
and they will basically have like a mini parade or
a parade down the street, and usually that includes fire costumes.
A lot of cities in the United States now actually
has has their own crompus sknocked.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
There's one here in Washington, d C. Where I live.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Baltimore has their own, I believe Richmond does.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
People need to stop them in Seattle.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
What is it so in your travels, because I know
you've researched so many things. I'm a I'm a big
fan of your Instagram and you're always so you're always
so formal. Is there a tie between like the elves
and the gnome culture that you talk about?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Oh, actually, yes there is.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I know it's kind of off the track a little bit,
but I figure you can handle me going a little sideways.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely. So what's interesting about that is we.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Have these so so the the names of these things well,
it also depends on which which area of the world
that you're looking into and so and we're going to
find that as we dive into like the different areas
of Christmas and holiday lore, that there's going to be
almost like a merging of different cultures, uh when it
(03:55):
comes to our Christmas traditions. So uh over, So there's
there's a couple. So I'll start with I'll start over
in Iceland. So there are these little figures.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
They're called the Yule Lads. They are, uh, they are
these thirteen mischievous brothers.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Their parents, well their mother specifically is actually a very
terrifying figure in Christmas lore.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
But starting around the thirteen days before.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Christmas, the Mule Lads will come down from their cave
one by one and they'll recavoc and pull pranks. Now,
whether there's a crossover with the Elves is up in
the is up in the up in the air. But
their traditions are a little interesting because they have really
like unique names and they cause mischief based.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
On their names.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
So for example, spoon, liquor lick, spoons, door slammer slams doors,
sausage swiper. Yeah, he'll take your sausages. No peeper will
spy on you and steal your stuff. Doorway sniffer you know,
so sniffs your doorways looking for food.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, yeah, are the are the heat miser and the
snow miser involved in the lads.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
No, I wish that would be hilarious actually.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
So, but yeah, so we have that over in Iceland
and they and they will also either give you a
present in your so you leave your shoes on window
sills and they'll either give you a present.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Or they'll give you a potato for me. I mean
a potato wouldn't necessarily.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Be a bad thing because I mean I like potatoes,
so right.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
You know, it's like you're gonna give me a free Uh,
you're gonna give me a free potato.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I will go ahead and take it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
So there's also, uh, there's there's a couple of others,
especially around Switzerland to Norway that.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Isn't that is the Santa Claus thing. Is that specifically
from Norway where it started, The center clause thing.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
So center clause. I'm actually glad you brought up center clause. So, uh,
center clause is more based out of the Netherlands. But yes,
that that one is actually, so there's a whole debate
that's that's happening in the holiday history community about the
origin of Santa Claus. And what's interesting is there's possibly
(06:32):
a tie to Odin, although Minordic historians listening are probably
gonna are probably gonna be like no, but so center
Clause actually comes from the Netherlands. Uh, And he wore
bishop's robes, he traveled by horse, and he left get
gifts for children in their shoes on December sixth, you know,
(06:52):
just kind of thinking, hey, for a moment, going tying
back to Crampus, we have December fifth is Crampus's day.
December sixth is Saint nixt Day. There is a painting
from the sixteen sixties by a Dutch painter by the
name of Jon Steen that depicts.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
The feast of Saint Nicholas.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
And in that picture there's and if you're those of
you who are listening, you could pull it up. There's
a older boy pointing out the chimney in the painting,
which is interesting because you know, Santa goes down the chimney.
But yeah, so uh there's also uh, center Clause was
able to perform miracles.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Uh, yeah, uh, center clause, Saint Nicholas, this figure all
kind of these different figures who are very very similar
kind of merged into one.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
There's a lot of interesting things so that.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
We've sort of merged a lot of the culture lore
into what we have. But while you're talking, I'm thinking
about the lore that we have right now of Santa
Claus coming down the chimney. If you're good, you get presents.
If you're bad, you get cool. You got reindeer, you
got that. These you know, goes around the world than
a sleigh pulled by rain. Like, there's so much juicy storytelling,
(08:05):
like and I don't mean to be funny or to
try to sound funny, but the Easter Bunny doesn't have
that deep of a storyline, but Santa does for some reason.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Oh yeah, uh.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Well, I think and I think it comes from like
I mentioned early in the beginning of the In the beginning, uh,
this time of year really heralded a time of transition.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
So there's a lot of.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Different cultures that have various celebrations that center around this.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
So they kind of created their own lore, so to speak.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
And but the fact that and it's one of those
things like what came first the chicken or the egg.
But like and like I mentioned, there is a bit
of a there is a bit of a theory that,
oh that Santa Claus may or may.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Not be based on Odin.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
I'm actually when you look at the at the when
you look at when you look at like the Norse
history at the end of the day, more than likely not.
But the timing the time couldn't be more interesting with that. Yeah,
So Odin actually has a lot of his own celebrations
that are happening around this time of year. So during Yule,
(09:16):
there is a legend that Odin travels through the sky
during the time of Yule, and.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
If anyone has ever heard of the Wild Hunt, that
is uh.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
The Wild Hunt is basically this horde of spirits that
fly through the sky collecting the spirits of the dead
who were Uh, and they would be released from their
bodies and taken to the afterlife by Odin. You didn't
want to be outside during this time of year. You
don't want to be outside at night because you're risking
your soul being taken to the afterlife too soon. So
(09:51):
you know Odin traveling through the sky, Santa Claus travels
through the sky. But also Odin is often depicted as
a god with a long white beard, uh and riding
through the sky on his eight legged horse, oh wit.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Which you know, yeah, which is very interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
So there is a striking similarity in that, you know,
Santa also sports a beard riding through the sky with
his eight reindeer.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Now, the other thing with.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Odin is when Odin would be out, you know, outside
flying through the sky with the wild hunt collecting the spirits,
you know, collecting spirits. Nor the ancient Norse actually left
out food. They left out oats and hay for the
riders of the wild hunt to appease them on their
long journey. So kind of like how kids leave Santa
(10:41):
cookies and milk, the ancient Nordic people left out food
and oats and hay.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
So, uh, why do you think these these are so
ingrained in us that we still carry these traditions. It's
not just it's it's got to be beyond that it's
fun to put out, you know, gifts are or you know,
have santac coem visit. Why do you think we're so
attached to them?
Speaker 4 (11:05):
You know, So, when I would say, when Christianity really
came into play, and the Puritans came in and they
tried to get rid of you know, Odin and center
Claus and Thick.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
You can see how well that went. There was an
attempt to basically.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Clean up the holidays of these different cultures. And I
think that's kind of how everything kind of merged together.
I think who I think, you know, people throughout time
noticed that there was just enough similarities to like, hey,
we can actually celebrate these traditions too, and it's not
departing so very far from our original intention. So I think,
(11:47):
you know, we as humans, we thrive on ritual we
thrive on.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Tradition and patterns.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
And I think, yeah, I guess that's true. Like a
once a year thing that everybody stops down in the
culture is shared together. That must be important to us too.
And absolutely if you put a little bit of darkness
in it too, it seems to stick to our guts
a little bit. Yeah, especially how.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Yeah, I think so yeah, Because I mean Halloween's another
great example we have, you know, sooyn and that's the
transition of you know, going from summer into when the
world is about to calm down.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
It's the harvest. So I think because.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
You know, weather, for the most part in certain hemispheres
is very similar.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
So you know, we all these.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
Different cultures have these different traditions, but they're all like
eerily similar, especially the you know, the Hall of the
Winter Christmas ones. There seems to be a common thread
among different cultures where there's some kind of deity, some
kind of person, some kind of creature that goes from
home to home leaving presents for the good kids or
(13:01):
not so great things for the naughty kids, whether that's
coal or a beating with a birch stick. But there's
also that leaving food out, leaving food out, leaving gifts out.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Odin's not the only one.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
And then there's all these like other like quirky creatures
so to speak.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
I actually love that little term quirky creatures.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Uh, from like giant cats to witches, you know who
all kind of need this, like need something to happen
to reward that person or that person gets punished.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Listen to more Coast to Coast am every weeknight at
one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam
dot com for more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
We're kind of talking about the lesser known Christmas monsters.
Maybe that that people haven't heard it, but I think
people know about Crampus now because maybe the movie. But
will you explain the Christmas lore of Crampis which sounds
terrifying to me?
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Oh? Absolutely so Crampis.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Yes, you are right, Crampus has become really popular in
the last couple of years. Dare I say even like
even like since last Christmas.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I didn't know about it when I was a kid,
and I'm glad I did not know what about it
when I was a kid. That would have been terrifying.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
I mean for me, I probably would have behaved a
lot more if I knew about Crampis.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Uh uh. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
So Crampis is from Alpine folklore, and one could argue
that Crampus even pre dates Christmas itself. So you have Crampis,
who is kind of like almost like an anti Santa
Claus type of figure.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
So, you know, while we had.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Santa who rewarded the good kids and maybe gave some
hole to the naughty kids, Crampis is this humanoid goat
like creature. And so usually how Crampis would work is
he works alongside Santa Claus. So Santa and him have
or Saint Nicholas. Uh, so they had this good cop
(01:19):
back coop dynamic happening.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
And on the night.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Of December fifth, which is known as Crampus knocked, Uh,
Saint Nicholas and Crampus would go door to door and uh,
you know, Saint Nicholas would give gifts to the good,
to the good kids, and then Crampus would punish the
naughty kids. However, the way that he punished kids wasn't
giving them coal.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Actually coal would probably be like.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
The the nicer, the nicer end of it, uh, the.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Nicer end of it. So usually uh, it depends on
which region you're looking into.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Crampus will either beat children with birch sticks, put them
in his basket and take them back to Hell with him,
or he'll put he'll put them in his sack and
eat them alive in his.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
The most wonderful time of the year. Exactly what is terrifying? Right? Terrifying?
Speaker 4 (02:17):
And if that wasn't enough, so a lot of area,
a lot of areas in Germany, actually all over the
world now they have this event called well it's called
crompas knocked, like I said, but they would have this
event called a crampus loft, which is basically a parade
of all the people in the town dressing up as
crampis and having or crompus for my German speaking friends,
(02:42):
and they will basically have like a mini parade or
a parade down the street, and usually that includes fire costumes.
A lot of cities in the United States now actually
has has their own crompus sknocked.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
There's one here in Washington, d C. Where I live.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Baltimore has their own, I believe Richmond does.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
People need to stop them in Seattle.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
What is it so in your travels, because I know
you've researched so many things. I'm a I'm a big
fan of your Instagram and you're always so you're always
so formal. Is there a tie between like the elves
and the gnome culture that you talk about?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Oh, actually, yes there is.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I know it's kind of off the track a little bit,
but I figure you can handle me going a little sideways.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely. So what's interesting about that is we.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Have these so so the the names of these things well,
it also depends on which which area of the world
that you're looking into and so and we're going to
find that as we dive into like the different areas
of Christmas and holiday lore, that there's going to be
almost like a merging of different cultures, uh when it
(03:55):
comes to our Christmas traditions. So uh over, So there's
there's a couple. So I'll start with I'll start over
in Iceland. So there are these little figures.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
They're called the Yule Lads. They are, uh, they are
these thirteen mischievous brothers.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Their parents, well their mother specifically is actually a very
terrifying figure in Christmas lore.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
But starting around the thirteen days before.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Christmas, the Mule Lads will come down from their cave
one by one and they'll recavoc and pull pranks. Now,
whether there's a crossover with the Elves is up in
the is up in the up in the air. But
their traditions are a little interesting because they have really
like unique names and they cause mischief based.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
On their names.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
So for example, spoon, liquor lick, spoons, door slammer slams doors,
sausage swiper. Yeah, he'll take your sausages. No peeper will
spy on you and steal your stuff. Doorway sniffer you know,
so sniffs your doorways looking for food.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, yeah, are the are the heat miser and the
snow miser involved in the lads.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
No, I wish that would be hilarious actually.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
So, but yeah, so we have that over in Iceland
and they and they will also either give you a
present in your so you leave your shoes on window
sills and they'll either give you a present.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Or they'll give you a potato for me. I mean
a potato wouldn't necessarily.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Be a bad thing because I mean I like potatoes,
so right.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
You know, it's like you're gonna give me a free Uh,
you're gonna give me a free potato.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I will go ahead and take it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
So there's also, uh, there's there's a couple of others,
especially around Switzerland to Norway that.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Isn't that is the Santa Claus thing. Is that specifically
from Norway where it started, The center clause thing.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
So center clause. I'm actually glad you brought up center clause. So, uh,
center clause is more based out of the Netherlands. But yes,
that that one is actually, so there's a whole debate
that's that's happening in the holiday history community about the
origin of Santa Claus. And what's interesting is there's possibly
(06:32):
a tie to Odin, although Minordic historians listening are probably
gonna are probably gonna be like no, but so center
Clause actually comes from the Netherlands. Uh, And he wore
bishop's robes, he traveled by horse, and he left get
gifts for children in their shoes on December sixth, you know,
(06:52):
just kind of thinking, hey, for a moment, going tying
back to Crampus, we have December fifth is Crampus's day.
December sixth is Saint nixt Day. There is a painting
from the sixteen sixties by a Dutch painter by the
name of Jon Steen that depicts.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
The feast of Saint Nicholas.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
And in that picture there's and if you're those of
you who are listening, you could pull it up. There's
a older boy pointing out the chimney in the painting,
which is interesting because you know, Santa goes down the chimney.
But yeah, so uh there's also uh, center Clause was
able to perform miracles.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Uh, yeah, uh, center clause, Saint Nicholas, this figure all
kind of these different figures who are very very similar
kind of merged into one.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
There's a lot of interesting things so that.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
We've sort of merged a lot of the culture lore
into what we have. But while you're talking, I'm thinking
about the lore that we have right now of Santa
Claus coming down the chimney. If you're good, you get presents.
If you're bad, you get cool. You got reindeer, you
got that. These you know, goes around the world than
a sleigh pulled by rain. Like, there's so much juicy storytelling,
(08:05):
like and I don't mean to be funny or to
try to sound funny, but the Easter Bunny doesn't have
that deep of a storyline, but Santa does for some reason.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Oh yeah, uh.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Well, I think and I think it comes from like
I mentioned early in the beginning of the In the beginning, uh,
this time of year really heralded a time of transition.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
So there's a lot of.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Different cultures that have various celebrations that center around this.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
So they kind of created their own lore, so to speak.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
And but the fact that and it's one of those
things like what came first the chicken or the egg.
But like and like I mentioned, there is a bit
of a there is a bit of a theory that,
oh that Santa Claus may or may.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Not be based on Odin.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
I'm actually when you look at the at the when
you look at when you look at like the Norse
history at the end of the day, more than likely not.
But the timing the time couldn't be more interesting with that. Yeah,
So Odin actually has a lot of his own celebrations
that are happening around this time of year. So during Yule,
(09:16):
there is a legend that Odin travels through the sky
during the time of Yule, and.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
If anyone has ever heard of the Wild Hunt, that
is uh.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
The Wild Hunt is basically this horde of spirits that
fly through the sky collecting the spirits of the dead
who were Uh, and they would be released from their
bodies and taken to the afterlife by Odin. You didn't
want to be outside during this time of year. You
don't want to be outside at night because you're risking
your soul being taken to the afterlife too soon. So
(09:51):
you know Odin traveling through the sky, Santa Claus travels
through the sky. But also Odin is often depicted as
a god with a long white beard, uh and riding
through the sky on his eight legged horse, oh wit.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Which you know, yeah, which is very interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
So there is a striking similarity in that, you know,
Santa also sports a beard riding through the sky with
his eight reindeer.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Now, the other thing with.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Odin is when Odin would be out, you know, outside
flying through the sky with the wild hunt collecting the spirits,
you know, collecting spirits. Nor the ancient Norse actually left
out food. They left out oats and hay for the
riders of the wild hunt to appease them on their
long journey. So kind of like how kids leave Santa
(10:41):
cookies and milk, the ancient Nordic people left out food
and oats and hay.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
So, uh, why do you think these these are so
ingrained in us that we still carry these traditions. It's
not just it's it's got to be beyond that it's
fun to put out, you know, gifts are or you know,
have santac coem visit. Why do you think we're so
attached to them?
Speaker 4 (11:05):
You know, So, when I would say, when Christianity really
came into play, and the Puritans came in and they
tried to get rid of you know, Odin and center
Claus and Thick.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
You can see how well that went. There was an
attempt to basically.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Clean up the holidays of these different cultures. And I
think that's kind of how everything kind of merged together.
I think who I think, you know, people throughout time
noticed that there was just enough similarities to like, hey,
we can actually celebrate these traditions too, and it's not
departing so very far from our original intention. So I think,
(11:47):
you know, we as humans, we thrive on ritual we
thrive on.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Tradition and patterns.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
And I think, yeah, I guess that's true. Like a
once a year thing that everybody stops down in the
culture is shared together. That must be important to us too.
And absolutely if you put a little bit of darkness
in it too, it seems to stick to our guts
a little bit. Yeah, especially how.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Yeah, I think so yeah, Because I mean Halloween's another
great example we have, you know, sooyn and that's the
transition of you know, going from summer into when the
world is about to calm down.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
It's the harvest. So I think because.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
You know, weather, for the most part in certain hemispheres
is very similar.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
So you know, we all these.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
Different cultures have these different traditions, but they're all like
eerily similar, especially the you know, the Hall of the
Winter Christmas ones. There seems to be a common thread
among different cultures where there's some kind of deity, some
kind of person, some kind of creature that goes from
home to home leaving presents for the good kids or
(13:01):
not so great things for the naughty kids, whether that's
coal or a beating with a birch stick. But there's
also that leaving food out, leaving food out, leaving gifts out.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Odin's not the only one.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
And then there's all these like other like quirky creatures
so to speak.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
I actually love that little term quirky creatures.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Uh, from like giant cats to witches, you know who
all kind of need this, like need something to happen
to reward that person or that person gets punished.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
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