September 15, 2024 • 43 mins
In This Hour:
-- Adam Winch, founder of Defenders USA, talks about the physical and mental skills needed to become your own first responder.
-- Tom Gresham unpacks lessons from a hasty evacuation from wildfires, and also reveals his harrowing "rescue" of Gun Talk radio gear across a turbulent mini-ocean.
-- When can you shoot in self defense? Can you shoot a home intruder who is not threatening you?
Gun Talk 09.15.24 Hour 1
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
-- Adam Winch, founder of Defenders USA, talks about the physical and mental skills needed to become your own first responder.
-- Tom Gresham unpacks lessons from a hasty evacuation from wildfires, and also reveals his harrowing "rescue" of Gun Talk radio gear across a turbulent mini-ocean.
-- When can you shoot in self defense? Can you shoot a home intruder who is not threatening you?
Gun Talk 09.15.24 Hour 1
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Ruger Light RAG Security three eighty is easy to
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more at Ruger dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Yes, indeed, I am back. Hey, I'm congression, I'm your host.
This is gun Talking. Yeah. We had to cut the
show off early last week because we had the fires here.
We had fire bombers roaring over the top of the house.
They were scooping water in front of us from the
lake and dropping it on the fire right behind us.
And then just as we're into the show, we get
(00:35):
the alert says it is time to go. You must
now evacuate, and so we shut her down and took
off running and we're back. I have some stories to
tell about evacuation, about rescuing the radio gear, running around
roadblocks to get in here. Yeah, we'll talk about that
a little bit. Lots of things going on, things that
you want to talk about. If you have a new gun,
(00:57):
an old gun, you've been not doing a little shooting
by all means, share it with us. If you decided,
as have many people, millions of people, to get a
gun for self defense, we need to talk seriously, we
need to talk because your gun is not a magic
talisman that makes evil go away. There are skills that
are necessary, and they're not just physical skill skills. There's
(01:22):
a lot going on here. There's a lot of information
you don't know. And you know that old thing you
don't know what you don't know. In this case, it's
really true. You don't even know. There's a whole body
of information out there for you to study and learn. Well,
one of the guys who's really trying to stamp out
some of that ignorance is Adam Winch. He is with
Defenders USA. Adam, thank you for taking a break from
the class. Appreciate you being here.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Well, thank you so much. You're spot on right. Getting
the eyes of somebody who can critically evaluate what you're
doing with it and help you improve that training is
soing force. So I'm glad you said that. Thanks for
letting me be here.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
By the way, oh you bet. What's kind of like
saying I'm going to teach myself to play golf versus
having a golf code coach who can sit down and
watch what you're doing. You know, I mean people will
do that. They'll pay money for that. But somehow in America,
you know, we're all born with it, innate ability to
fire guns. Right.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Well, John Wick does it right, just walks out and
then takes care of business. So therefore we can all
be John Wick. That's what Hollywood has convinced us of. Yet,
like you said, you want golf lessons, you want to
be good, you go find a golf pro to help
you become good.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
What is it? And look, le let's back out tell
people what Defenders USA is.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Okay, So we're a defensive training company, which really is
more than just gun. We do a very big amount
of firearm training. In fact, I'm on the range today
in Missouri teaching a multi day class. So we do
a lot of firearms training.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Well, we allot to do it, do a lot of.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Defensive training, because defensiveness is not about the gun.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Right.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
If he's gone to the gun, probably all your other
things have failed you and now you're having to use
the last resort, which is a gun. So it's really
a defensive training company. And we do everything from corporate
training to you know, from basic big and stuff all
the way to honestly training snipers. So we do kind
of every gamut of fire and training and then pre
fire training that there is.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And let me ask you this because I have found
this to be true across the board. I've been to
a lot of different training schools, academies, shooting schools, and
the people who really know what they're doing then really
good instructors. Well all they may not say it the
same way, but they all end up saying basically, look,
if you go to your gun, if you have to
shoot somebody number one, as you said, you've kind of
(03:30):
missed a lot of opportunities to make that not happen.
But also you're going to change your life in ways
you cannot even imagine. And if you have that knowledge,
it may make you rethink your preparedness.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
Yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Right, the second U pull a gun in defensive life,
very specifically and retigious America, your life is completely over
as you know it. It's a completely different life from
that point forward.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It'll change how your family looks at you, how your
friends treat you, how your job does, how everything does. Right,
So you're changing, you're financially, legally and so mentally emotionally.
Your life changes. And if you can get the ahead
of time to have those kind of skills. Oftentimes in training,
people realize there's so much more to it than just
(04:18):
the gun, and they begin, because they're guided to it,
they begin start looking at the ways to avoid the
fight in the first place, right, because the first, the
best fight you'll ever get yourself into is the fight
you avoid in the first place.
Speaker 6 (04:29):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
If you can have those softer skills, those mental skills,
or even learning when to use a raised voice or
even less of a voice, when to use certain posters,
when to portray the confidence, when to whatever it is,
if you can learn to do those so that mister
bad guy does not decide you are selected to be
food that day, right they want to go pick on
(04:50):
somebody else, that becomes a much easier process for you,
because getting into the fight, though we've glorified in Hollywood,
is actually the worst thing and the last thing you
want to get yourself into. And if you can get,
like you said, the opportunities ahead of time to not
go into that fight, you're far better off in the
long run.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
You're describing skills that not only do people not have
the skills, they don't even know that these skills exist.
How do you break through to someone to say, okay, look,
there's a body of information here. There's a body of
knowledge here that can save your life as you know it.
And I'm not even talking about keeping you alive. I'm
talking about saving the life as you know it. How
(05:29):
do you get to people to say this is something
you need to know about?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
So a good question on this, right, Usually people go
straight into firearms training if they're going to do it right,
because firearms are sexy, they're cool, it's what TV shows,
and they've not thought about all those other skills, those
softer skills in the sense, people don't usually get to
that on their own. So what I find is, if
we can get them in firearms training, we use that
(05:54):
in a sense to wake up in the firearms training
all the other stuff. So when they finally realize will
bullets truly do to the human body?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Right?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
What it does to lives, their kids, to everything else,
When they start realizing that, suddenly as they study the gun,
learn the gun, learn the skills, and realize how lethal
it can be, how life altering can be. Suddenly those people,
because they're thoughtful, they've already come to training. Therefore their
thoughtful people. Because they're thoughtful, they start realizing, wait a minute,
(06:22):
this is so atrocious that can happen? How do I
stop doing it? So for us, usually the lead into
those better skills that you're talking about starts in the
gun world, because that's what usually brings them in the
first place.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Interesting, we're talking with Adam Weinz from Defenders usas defenders
dash USA dot com. Adam, what I have found is
that the more training you get, the less likely you're
going to get into a gunfight. Number One, you know
how bad it can be, and just having a gun
doesn't mean you end up winning or you don't get shot.
At Number two, you understand that the aftermath of all
this can be horrendous, and you start looking for ways
(06:59):
to avoid it. And I find that people who have
been to multiple serious gun fighting schools come away with
a real appreciation not only of that, but a determination
to not have to use those skills.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Oh very much, so very much so. I mean, preferably,
you never get yourself into the moment when you've got
to use a gun for the defensive life preferably right,
And the best way to do that is to be
to build these skills.
Speaker 7 (07:25):
One.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
It builds knowledge, it builds confidence, and usually with that
knowledge and confidence, people realize I don't want to do this,
so they find a way not to right, and the
more trained, as you say, the less likely they're get
into get into that fight and more interesting mister or
missus dirtbag, right, the person that wants to do bad
things to them, they oftentimes on an instinctual level, can
sense that these people have a confidence of what they do.
(07:48):
They move really in a sense like a predator with
a moral compass, but they move that way. They seem
to handle themselves with assuredness. Therefore they don't want to
attack them. They find the people that instinctly realize have
no training, they attack them more right. Furthermore, Furthermore, if
you're that person that's been in a lethal moment, whether
it's you've used a gun to defend life, use a
(08:09):
baseball bat, a car, whatever it may be, a knife,
having gone through that once and you realize how rough
that can be in the long term aftermath of everything
that goes on in life, in your life and to yourself. Boy,
that's a hard school to go through. So if you
can get it before you go into that better and
you get that usually through multiple trainings and thoughtful trainings.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
But some folks have.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Been like you talked about, right, I've been into things,
and the worse I got into, the more I did
not want to. Yet as a young guy going off
to my first gun schools, I thought that would be
the greatest thing. Ever, quickly you realize that's the last
thing you want, so better get it in school, grow
that thought process ahead of time, then have to actually
survive it.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Two final questions. One is I have often told people, Look,
if somebody is in my house and they're stealing my TV,
I will hold the door open for them or help
them grab the other side of the TV and carry
it out, and then call the insurance cup you tell
them what happened to their TV. I'm not shooting somebody
over a TV. For Heaven's sakes, sir.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
You are my spirit animals. You and I agree completely.
It's just a TV, big honkin deal. Why take life
over a TV? Why defend sayings or stuff?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Right?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Lethally, right, it's just stuff.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
It's a TV.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
It's jewelry, it's your silverware, it's whatever. Who cares? We
never your car, it's your car.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Let them take the stupid car for heaven send exactly right.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
They're gonna steal your Gucci purse, well one of one thing.
It's just a Gucci purse. Have better taste, Get a
Louis Vuitton, right, they tell me they're better. Right, But
at the same time, it's just a purse. Let them
take it. It's your Rolex, big deal. They're fifteen thousand dollars.
You can replace it. It's if it's anything that's not
breathing life and flesh, life and flesh with a soul.
(09:57):
So can we say human? We never descend stuff lethally,
love them have it, Who cares. I don't care if
it's in your house or not.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
It's just stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Now when they come after flesh and blood life, right.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Now that's what we fight for.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Exactly now. And the and the final question is the
easy one. Iron sights are red dots?
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Well, well, well, well we we we invented the wheel,
and then we invented motors to go with wheels, and
then we invent the stuff to go around the car.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So I would say iron sights was the wheel the
red dot, and I was adding the car to the wheel.
Might as well move up with technology.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Thank you. So much. I know I pulled you out
of a class and you took some valuable time to
share your experience with us today. Adam appreciate its defenders
dash USA dot com. Adam Wench, thank you.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
My friend Jiner, thank you?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
All right? Do you take care? All right? Eight six
six talk gun? This idea, let them take the stuff.
It rankles, doesn't it? What's your take on that?
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Speaker 2 (13:32):
Well, that was a fun conversation Talking with Adam from
Defenders USA Indefenders Dash USA dot com if you won't
take a look at the training they do, where they go,
what they do, Adam which talking about the idea of
not shooting when you can. Even if you said, okay,
well i'm legally justified. Yeah, okay, fine, that's great, I
(13:56):
would offer that when people say that they really haven't
thought through the situation. My point is that the more
you look at this, the more you learn about it,
the more you study it, the more you read from
people who really know this stuff, and you go get training,
you realize, yeah, it's a life altering event. Even just
(14:21):
pulling your gun is, but certainly shooting someone is. Let
me describe a little bit of a scenario because I
know people say, well, if you send my house thought
of shooting, Well, maybe what if I told you, okay,
if it's in my house, I will ruin my life.
(14:43):
So what Yeah, because that's what's going to happen. If
he's in my house, I am going to bankrupt myself. Huh.
Let me rethink that a little bit. If he's in
my house, I'm going to lose my job and get divorce.
What what? Because those are things that often happen after
(15:07):
you shoot someone. Those are things that often happen after
you kill someone in self defense. You lose your money,
you lose your house, you lose your marriage, you almost
certainly lose your friends over what a TV? You're stealing
(15:29):
some stuff, things that can be replaced. I understand the
feeling of violation. So let me give you maybe some alternatives,
because you're thinking, what do I do? What do I do?
It's okay to have your gun. Somebody breaks into your house, Okay,
what is the goal here? Is the goal to make
(15:52):
them dead?
Speaker 11 (15:53):
No?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I would suggest that if you are a thinking person,
if you've thought this through, if younderstanding the ramifications involved here,
the goal is to get him out of your house.
You don't want him in your house, Okay, with or
without the stuff. I don't care. Stuff's just stuff. I mean,
I understand you need to say it over and over again.
Stuff is just stuff. Everything can be replaced, literally, everything
(16:16):
can be replaced, except the people. Except the people in
your life, the family members. If they come for them,
I'll bet you are off. Do what you gotta do.
I remember Clint Smith at class and he was talking
about somebody breaking into the house, and I mean Clyt
(16:37):
Smith at Thunder Ranch has skills, let's just put it
that way, and he could do what was necessary to
shoot somebody in legal means. But as he described the scenario,
he's got a shotgun with a light on it, and
he says, I'm going to light him up with the
light and then yell get out of my house. Huh.
(17:03):
And if that accomplishes that thing and makes them get
out of my house, boy, talk about your win. Win.
But you must have thought about these things ahead of time.
You can't come up with this plan on the spot,
because more than likely you're going to default to stupid
TV shows and movies because that's what gets in our brains, right,
(17:27):
because that's what we've exposed ourselves to. Rather than going
and attending forty hours of really good gun training, self defense,
gunfighting school, we watch forty hours of stupid movies and
TV shows. I don't care if it's Kojak or Ncis
or John Wayne or John Wick, it doesn't matter. It's
(17:49):
all wrong, it's all bad for you. It's just garbage
you're pouring into your brain. And the only way I
know of, honestly, to get rid of that stuff that
we all have in our heads that were carrying around
is to go get some training, to go talk to
somebody who knows this stuff, to start reading books about
(18:10):
to watch well, watch our TV show, our First Person
Offender TV show. It's on YouTube. Look for First Person
Offender on the gun Talk media site, and that helps
you start the process of Oh, I never thought of that. Huh,
I didn't realize that. Let's go Line three. Terry's with
(18:32):
us out of Fargo, North Dakota. Hello Terry, You've got
some thoughts on this. What are you thinking?
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Well, there was some discussion about, you know, somebody comes
in and takes your TV, you let and take it.
I live in an older house. Well, I have glass
on both back at front door, and the crime has
gotten quite a bit worse in this town, shootings and
(19:00):
everything else. Now I don't carry but for home protection purposes.
As I told your screener that I hear the window
break and they're coming in. I'm not gonna let them
take that TV because I don't know what their intentions are.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
No, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're not gonna let them
take the TV because you don't know what their intenders are.
But if their intenders are to take the TV, what
are you gonna.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Do, okay, But my mindset is that if they if
they break the glass to come into the house and
I'm sleeping and I get up, I'm not gonna let
him go through the house to get the TV.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
What are you gonna do?
Speaker 5 (19:49):
You know, I'm not gonna let him in.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Well, I'm not saying that. Nobody's letting anyone in if
somebody is in you your house. I mean, this is
real world, very detail. You got to get very specific
rather than like these overarching thoughts. Specifically, what are you
going to do?
Speaker 5 (20:12):
My thinking is that if the window is broke and
they have to reach down and unlock the dead bolt
and come in, am I supposed to just let them
come in and take what they want?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Nope, no one's saying that. I don't think if I
ever said that. What I'm saying is you tell them
to get out of your house.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Oh of course, of course.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, okay on them Okay. I mean see that's the
part that got left out because it sounds like you're
saying if they if they break the glass, I'm gonna
shoot them. I'm thinking, well, it's not a good plan.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
No, no, no, no, I would just no, I would
give them verbal warning and hopefully they sleeve you know, Okay, I'm.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
With you there. It's like, get out of my house.
I've called the police, I have a gun. Whatever you
got to say at the top of your voice to
let him know, give them an opportunity to save themselves.
And frankly, you now to your point. But if they
turn around and they start coming at you, all bets
are off. You gotta do what you got to do right.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
Right, And I would hope it never come to that,
but it's like, I, you know, I've got a family
to protect too, and I don't know, like I said,
the crime has gone so much worse than his tone.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, and I understand where you are and the crimes higher,
and you know you're thinking, I don't want anybody to
hurt me in mind, but it sounds like and you've
done a good job of actually thinking this through, which
is if he breaks my glass he's in the house,
you know, I will have my gun. Doesn't even gonna
shoot him. If he's carrying the TV out, I'm going
to let him leap if he's you know, but I'm
going to give him an opportunity to make a good
(21:59):
choice and leave and just say, look, get out of
my house. At the top of my voice. I have
a gun. I call the police and more than likely
I'll leave. But if they turn and come at you, you
got to protect yourself. You gotta protect your family. Eat
six ' six Talk Gun. How do you approach this? All? Right?
(22:24):
Back with you? Eat sixty six Talk Gun. I'm Tom Grasham.
This is gun Talk, And here's the deal. You do
not have to agree with me to call in. If
you don't like guns, give me a holler, let's talk
about it. You can tell me why you don't like
one of my other things. I've said, Well, let's talk
about it. That's why we do this, so we can
run these ideas around. There you go, and I am
(22:45):
very quick to adopt new ideas when presented with good information.
I think maybe Bill's call them in with a at
least a disagreement it. Bill's an idol. Hey, Bill, you're
on Gun Talk. What's up, sir? Yeah?
Speaker 6 (22:58):
Hi Tom?
Speaker 7 (22:59):
How you doing your show?
Speaker 9 (23:00):
Hey?
Speaker 7 (23:01):
Well, my past experience twenty three years in law enforcement,
I did have the opportunity to go through the PFI
course the FBI put on for Police Farms Instruction you're
wrong about this. There's no absolutely no way you know
what anybody's going to be doing, and if they come
into your home, you have to deal with it. It's
(23:25):
better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
Tom hesitation, especially with police officers, when they break leather,
now it's nylon. You break leather, you use your weapon,
go center a mass and take your target down. If
you hesitate, you may lose your life. And maybe they go, well, hey, listen,
(23:47):
let me take my TV. Where's your bedroom? Let me
go in and go through the jewelry box. You're wrong.
I don't care how you might define what I just said.
You don't hesitate, you die. They're in your home, they're
in an area that's out of bounds. And that's the
bottom line. Hesitation will get you killed. And letting them
(24:09):
take your TV or get you killed.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
And what if they didn't have Hey Bill, what if
they didn't have a gun. You just take your TV
and you just shot them dead and they didn't have
a weapon on them at all, you're not risk. No,
here's my point is they don't represent. Now. Look, here's
the deal. Here's the difference for you and me. I
don't have qualified immunity.
Speaker 7 (24:34):
Doesn't matter. Better to be tried by.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Sure, it does. It makes all the difference in the world.
What do you mean it doesn't matter? Can I take
your house and everything you owned and bankrupt you? Is
that okay with you? Of course it's not. You have
qualified immunity as a police officer, you're protected. That is
not at risk for you. It is at risk for
those of us who don't have that. And if we
ignore that, I think we're damn fools.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
Well you'd be a life fool.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
You're wrong.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
It's just that simple.
Speaker 7 (25:02):
I'm a p F instructor.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
I don't care what your qualifications are. Bill, I think
you're wrong. So there you go. You got an opinion.
I got an opinion. I appreciate the call. Let's throw
it out there and let some other people weigh in
on this. He says, if they're in your house, just
shoot them because you don't know what they're going to do.
And I say, well, you know what, I think that
might be just slightly premature, because if they're in their house,
(25:26):
they may be your drunk neighbor who got confused and
broke in the door because his key didn't fit the
lock because he thought it was his house, but it's
actually your house. And you could say, well, that's just
too bad. Well it's fine for you to say, not
great for your neighbor, and also not great for you
when the lawsuits start. So I'm just wondering where do
you come in on this. Our numbers eight sixty six
(25:47):
talk gun and Bill. Look, I appreciate the call, but
here's the deal. A police officer has a whole different
set of circumstances than we do. And if you don't
understand what qualified immunity is, it means basically, he has
immune for the most part against lawsuits. I guess being
helped privately personally. Libel are lible for his actions. He
(26:14):
doesn't have the liability there you and I do. It matters.
And look, I understand when you say, well, you don't
know what they're going to do or you know what,
I'm not going to shoot somebody because I don't know
what they're going to do if they present a threat
to me or my family. Different deal. And trust me
(26:35):
when I tell you I do have the skills necessary
for that situation. Yeah, there's a reason I have hundreds
of hours at gunfighting schools. I do have those skills,
but I hope I also have the skills to think
this through and say, Okay, there's somebody rumming around downstairs.
(26:57):
If I just yell down there and say get out
of my house and they leave, I would count that
as a win as opposed to saying he's in my house,
I must go shoot him. I don't think that as
a tenable or a viable plan, but then again, I
don't have Bill's experience as a PFI. My number here
(27:20):
is eight six six Talk gun looking for you your
take on this. I'm Tom Grasha'll be right back with
more gun talk.
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Speaker 2 (29:42):
One thing is obvious to me is that the reason
we continue to have these conversations about the shoot don't
shoot scenarios is because it's not easy to determine what's
right when we do our forcen force training and I'm
a Certifightsimundition's instructor. When you do force force training and
you're working with people who may or may not represent
(30:03):
a threat, it's not easy to sort this out. Now,
if someone is coming at you with a gun or
a knife and threatening you, that's pretty clear. But there
are other circumstances where you don't really know is this
a shooter or not a shoot situation? And that's why
we get training, That's why you work through it, and
it's why you could end up with people that have
(30:23):
differences of opinion on this, people who are informed and
trained and have experience in it. And I think that's
what we just had with Bill being a police officer
and a firem's instructor. He says, I'm just wrong. He says, Tom,
You're just wrong, And I'm saying just because someone is
in your house doesn't mean you should shoot them. I
(30:44):
will hold on to that idea. I think if someone
represents a threat to you or a family member, different
deal altogether. But if I have an opportunity to get
them to leave without throwing bullets out there, I am
going to take that opportunity. Just my idea. But then again,
as I say, I don't have qualified immunity. Let's go,
(31:06):
let's see talked with who we're going to here, guys?
Oh Nick on five and Waco, Texas. Hey Nick, you
got to take on this. What are you thinking?
Speaker 15 (31:17):
Hey Tom, this is a great subject. You know, we
all hear about take a firearms training class, which I
have done, and we that is always push telling us
know how to use your firearm properly. But the mental
aspect of it, the after the incident aspect of it,
nobody really thinks about that. And you made a comment
(31:38):
while ago what we get out of Hollywood is garbage.
I'm not gonna I'm not going to pass on offer
an opinion on whether you shoot don't shoot. One of
the critical subjects that's come up in the last couple
of callers that you had is your exposure to liability
when you pull that firearm ount and discharge it as
(32:01):
an attorney for thirty five years. The key to litigation
is insurance. If you've got good insurance, they will provide
you with an attorney. That is, if you have coverage,
it will provide you with an attorney and with indemnification.
And there are companies out there that specialize and gun
on our insurance. I'm not going to offer any name
(32:23):
or anything, but the key is whether it's in your home,
out in public. Whatever you discharge that firearm, you're a
subject to potential criminal liability depending on what state you're in.
And also if you discharge your weapon outside of the home,
you're certainly going to be subject to a criminal investigation.
(32:44):
And then there's the civil liability side of it. So
you need insurance that can provide you with a criminal
attorney possible criminal defense, or a civil attorney to defend
you in a civil case.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
If am I right in thinking that we are citizens civilians,
if you will, are vastly in a different position than
someone that has qualified immunity and protection as a police officer.
Speaker 15 (33:12):
Oh, certainly there is that distinction. Certainly, I'm not saying
that every officer that pulls his gun is going to
you know, have the cloak of immunity, right the Atturney
I work with, that's his business. I mean he's defending
officers all the time that are involved in this. That's
out of my expertise, but I will say there is
(33:36):
that distinction. You know, as an officer of the law,
you've got that the potential coverage of immunity, not coverage,
but protection of immunity.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Well, and it goes to what you're saying is that
you need to provide that for yourself in the form
of good now not just insurance, but good insurance. People
need to know what they're buying because and I call
it go away money. If you have a million dollar policy,
sometimes that is enough to just make somebody go away
and not sue you and try to take everything you have.
(34:07):
So and sometimes the insurance company will just say, look here,
we'll offer you some go away money, or as you say,
they will provide you with an attorney and protection in
different ways. You know, this kind of insurance is not
really expensive. It's interesting. You may be looking at anywhere
between one hundred and three hundred dollars a year, and
what you're doing with that is protecting literally everything you own.
(34:31):
Is that a fair statement.
Speaker 15 (34:33):
That's a fair statement, and it's gonna the premium will
very probably depending on that. You can select the level
of coverage. You mentioned a million dollars. I don't know
what the levels are now. It's you know, maybe five
hundred thousand, minimum, three hundred thousand, and then upwards from there,
and that'll affect, of course, affect your premium and then
the scope of your coverage, whether you want just criminal protection,
(34:55):
civil protection, and so forth.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Right, Well, I appreciate if.
Speaker 15 (35:00):
You're involved in if you're involved in a shooting, the
civil attorneys are coming after you. Period.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yes. I always tell people, look, when you pull the trigger,
it's one hundred grand just to pull the trigger's going
to be one hundred grand just to start. That's like
the andy to get into the game. And you just
need to be aware of that.
Speaker 7 (35:18):
Now.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
It may be well worth it if they say he's
trying to kill me, or he's trying to you know,
kidnap my kid. Do what you got to do. Uh,
but just understand what we're looking at here. And that's
why I come back to I'm not going to shoot
somebody over a TV.
Speaker 15 (35:33):
Well, I'm like I say, I don't want to. I
don't want to offer an opinion on that. I just
if if, if me personally, I know I have good
coverage insurance, that question is off the table. In that moment,
I'm staring down at somebody who's just broken into my
house and I've got, you know, the red dot on
their chest and a forty five loaded and cocked and ready,
(35:56):
you know, do I pull the trigger? I don't want
to have a discussion and to see if there are
other concepts he might entertain or she might entertain. I'm
going to make it I'm gonna make it clear you
have the option to get the hell out of my
house or you know, it's your choice. Basically, something along
(36:18):
those lines.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Give them an opportunity to make a good choice. Here.
Speaker 15 (36:23):
Well, it gets rid of this thought of oh god,
if I pull the trigger or that, you know, am
I going to have theyre going to take my home,
They're going to take this Am I going to have
anything left?
Speaker 7 (36:30):
You know, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
By having the insurance, you kind of wipe out that concern.
And now we're really just saying, if you would like
to leave my house now, that would be a good thing.
But if you decide to stay here. I am prepared
to do what we got to do with that as well.
I appreciate the calls are good insights there. Let's go
grab Bill and boise Idaho. Hey Bill, you're on gun Talk.
What are you thinking?
Speaker 16 (36:53):
How you doing? I'm going to be retired cop out
of California. And we were taught to not advertise what
we would do, like on social media or talk with
our friends or anything. Well, you know, I'll blow that
guy away if he comes into the house that type
of day, because you've already set yourself up for the
(37:14):
when the civil trial comes, and it will come. Also,
we were taught, we were taught when we buy our
concealed carry weapon, not to buy a firearm with a
scary name like Python our street sweeper, because that scares juries.
The other thing was not to buy the most deadliest
(37:34):
bullet that you could possibly buy, because that also scares juries.
And not to modify your handgun with the trigger or
anything like that, because the gun then doesn't operate the
way the manufacturer met it to operate. Also, I agree
with the million dollar policy. At least you are going
(37:57):
to get sued civilly say it's some organic that breaks
into your house at kill him and his girlfriend has
nothing left but the heroine spoon me left behind.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
She is going to sue you. Oh yeah, and there
will be a team of a lawyers who will take
that case with the idea of just getting a settlement
which can bankrupt you. They don't care about that. They're
just going to come after you and all of a
sudden you're bankrupt. So the insurance, and the previous caller
made a good point. If you have the insurance, you
can take that concern off the table, so you can
(38:31):
just deal with the threat or not threat, whatever it is,
with the situation as it is. Look, I appreciate the
call them up against my break here and I've got
to scoot out here. I appreciate that. I'm just wondering
as you processed all of this, and you can tell
this is not easy stuff. It's not like well, it's
just obviously what you do well, you don't know. It depends.
And that's why we keep throwing these scenarios out with
(38:53):
First Person Offender show is what if that? What about this?
Oh you didn't think about that thing, did you? Yeah,
well it's time to think about it. Ahead of time.
They coming up in a few minutes. We're gonna be
talking with some of the gun Talk crew and they've
(39:14):
been out getting alligators down in Louisiana. I'll have some
stories for you, and I'll share my story of rescuing
my radio gear, getting around the roadblocks and slipping in
here and pulling it out so we could do the
show funny stories here. Got caught in the middle of
a massive storm. Should not have been there in the
middle of that. Let's go to the phones. Let's see
(39:35):
Marks with us out of North Dakota on too. Hello, Mark,
what's going on in North Dakota?
Speaker 16 (39:41):
Oh, not much right now. I'm sure it's gonna be
here soon.
Speaker 17 (39:44):
But yeah, we'll listen to North Dakota. I listened to
that guy there in Bargo, and I can understand they're
having problems over there, and they're coming here too.
Speaker 16 (39:51):
With night times ten.
Speaker 17 (39:53):
If somebody gonna come through your front tories, not give
you a loan. I have the longer screws that if
they're to come through my front door, they're going to
work for it. I got an eighty pound eighty pound
dog that I considered to be one of my kids
and he he recognizes himself for as a as a
as a little boy. Anyway, if he gets through that,
(40:13):
if he gets through him, he's got a I got
an eight pound chuaha. And all the time that he's
gonna be on camera while the way he's going through
all this. So if he gets through those guys, he's done.
Because I have the right under the Constitution in North
Dakota to protect my life, my family, and my and
my property and those I consider are my property, so
(40:36):
I can I can defend him.
Speaker 16 (40:37):
And I also have insurance.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
So he let me let me ask you a question here.
You you mentioned having long screws. Are you talking about
like in your doors your door jam? You replaced the
screws there, Yeah, made.
Speaker 17 (40:51):
A longer and that's it's it's gonna help for a
few seconds. But I mean, like I said, it's it's uh.
By the time he gets I get through that door,
we'll be on the phone the nine one one, and
my wife will have the camera on and my dogs
will be at the door to greet them. And like
I said, it's you know, nobody really wants to deal
with an eighty pound dog.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
You know, it's not a bad thought. It's a dog
is a pretty good deterrent. Even just yapping a barking dog.
A lot of times we'll turn somebody away and make
them go to someplace where they don't have that going on. So,
just as a burglar alarm or a deterrent, and not
even talking about a dog jumping on somebody, just having
a dog is not a bad idea at all. Look,
(41:34):
I appreciate the call, sir, the uh this is basically
what he was just describing as this multi layered approach.
And I like that idea because I find some people
just go to gun, no gun, and the gun is
the whole approach and going, well, let's think about that longer.
Screwsing your door jam? What would that do? Well? That
(41:56):
makes it harder to kick in the door. It's you know,
let's have better locks. Why because it makes it harder?
Why do we want to make it harder because it
takes more time? Time is important here. Time when they
may say I don't want to do this. If they're
sitting there kicking the kike and the kick it and
kick it and kick it and they're not getting in
the door or time, that allows you more time to
(42:19):
prepare to call nine to one one, to get your gun,
to get your flashlight, to gather your family together in
one place so that you are now in a defensible situation.
And personally, look, you do what you gotta do. You
figure it out for me. I'm not gonna go look
for trouble. I'm gonna hold up someplace that's defensible. I'm
(42:43):
gonna make him come through the door, which is called
the fatal funnel if they come in there after I've
been saying I have a gun, I have called the police,
get out of my house. And then they decide, if
they're drugged up, whatever's going on, they decide to come in.
Once they come through the door, their mind, I own
him at that point, and we're going to take care
of the situation. That's me. You've got to figure it
(43:05):
out for yourself. But I like the conversation because it
gets people to start thinking about all these whatdips. What
if he has a gun and he's walking around inside
your house, he's not pointed at you, but do you
shoot him? Oh, that's a whole different set of circumstances,
isn't it. Huh, say you what we've come back, We're
gonna be talking about that and more, alligators down in
(43:28):
Louisiana and crossing a storm cross Lake where I never
should have been with the lightning was popping. But I
did it all for you,
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Speaker 2 (00:14):
Yes, indeed, I am back. Hey, I'm congression, I'm your host.
This is gun Talking. Yeah. We had to cut the
show off early last week because we had the fires here.
We had fire bombers roaring over the top of the house.
They were scooping water in front of us from the
lake and dropping it on the fire right behind us.
And then just as we're into the show, we get
(00:35):
the alert says it is time to go. You must
now evacuate, and so we shut her down and took
off running and we're back. I have some stories to
tell about evacuation, about rescuing the radio gear, running around
roadblocks to get in here. Yeah, we'll talk about that
a little bit. Lots of things going on, things that
you want to talk about. If you have a new gun,
(00:57):
an old gun, you've been not doing a little shooting
by all means, share it with us. If you decided,
as have many people, millions of people, to get a
gun for self defense, we need to talk seriously, we
need to talk because your gun is not a magic
talisman that makes evil go away. There are skills that
are necessary, and they're not just physical skill skills. There's
(01:22):
a lot going on here. There's a lot of information
you don't know. And you know that old thing you
don't know what you don't know. In this case, it's
really true. You don't even know. There's a whole body
of information out there for you to study and learn. Well,
one of the guys who's really trying to stamp out
some of that ignorance is Adam Winch. He is with
Defenders USA. Adam, thank you for taking a break from
the class. Appreciate you being here.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Well, thank you so much. You're spot on right. Getting
the eyes of somebody who can critically evaluate what you're
doing with it and help you improve that training is
soing force. So I'm glad you said that. Thanks for
letting me be here.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
By the way, oh you bet. What's kind of like
saying I'm going to teach myself to play golf versus
having a golf code coach who can sit down and
watch what you're doing. You know, I mean people will
do that. They'll pay money for that. But somehow in America,
you know, we're all born with it, innate ability to
fire guns. Right.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Well, John Wick does it right, just walks out and
then takes care of business. So therefore we can all
be John Wick. That's what Hollywood has convinced us of. Yet,
like you said, you want golf lessons, you want to
be good, you go find a golf pro to help
you become good.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
What is it? And look, le let's back out tell
people what Defenders USA is.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Okay, So we're a defensive training company, which really is
more than just gun. We do a very big amount
of firearm training. In fact, I'm on the range today
in Missouri teaching a multi day class. So we do
a lot of firearms training.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Well, we allot to do it, do a lot of.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Defensive training, because defensiveness is not about the gun.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Right.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
If he's gone to the gun, probably all your other
things have failed you and now you're having to use
the last resort, which is a gun. So it's really
a defensive training company. And we do everything from corporate
training to you know, from basic big and stuff all
the way to honestly training snipers. So we do kind
of every gamut of fire and training and then pre
fire training that there is.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And let me ask you this because I have found
this to be true across the board. I've been to
a lot of different training schools, academies, shooting schools, and
the people who really know what they're doing then really
good instructors. Well all they may not say it the
same way, but they all end up saying basically, look,
if you go to your gun, if you have to
shoot somebody number one, as you said, you've kind of
(03:30):
missed a lot of opportunities to make that not happen.
But also you're going to change your life in ways
you cannot even imagine. And if you have that knowledge,
it may make you rethink your preparedness.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
Yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Right, the second U pull a gun in defensive life,
very specifically and retigious America, your life is completely over
as you know it. It's a completely different life from
that point forward.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It'll change how your family looks at you, how your
friends treat you, how your job does, how everything does. Right,
So you're changing, you're financially, legally and so mentally emotionally.
Your life changes. And if you can get the ahead
of time to have those kind of skills. Oftentimes in training,
people realize there's so much more to it than just
(04:18):
the gun, and they begin, because they're guided to it,
they begin start looking at the ways to avoid the
fight in the first place, right, because the first, the
best fight you'll ever get yourself into is the fight
you avoid in the first place.
Speaker 6 (04:29):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
If you can have those softer skills, those mental skills,
or even learning when to use a raised voice or
even less of a voice, when to use certain posters,
when to portray the confidence, when to whatever it is,
if you can learn to do those so that mister
bad guy does not decide you are selected to be
food that day, right they want to go pick on
(04:50):
somebody else, that becomes a much easier process for you,
because getting into the fight, though we've glorified in Hollywood,
is actually the worst thing and the last thing you
want to get yourself into. And if you can get,
like you said, the opportunities ahead of time to not
go into that fight, you're far better off in the
long run.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
You're describing skills that not only do people not have
the skills, they don't even know that these skills exist.
How do you break through to someone to say, okay, look,
there's a body of information here. There's a body of
knowledge here that can save your life as you know it.
And I'm not even talking about keeping you alive. I'm
talking about saving the life as you know it. How
(05:29):
do you get to people to say this is something
you need to know about?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
So a good question on this, right, Usually people go
straight into firearms training if they're going to do it right,
because firearms are sexy, they're cool, it's what TV shows,
and they've not thought about all those other skills, those
softer skills in the sense, people don't usually get to
that on their own. So what I find is, if
we can get them in firearms training, we use that
(05:54):
in a sense to wake up in the firearms training
all the other stuff. So when they finally realize will
bullets truly do to the human body?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Right?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
What it does to lives, their kids, to everything else,
When they start realizing that, suddenly as they study the gun,
learn the gun, learn the skills, and realize how lethal
it can be, how life altering can be. Suddenly those people,
because they're thoughtful, they've already come to training. Therefore their
thoughtful people. Because they're thoughtful, they start realizing, wait a minute,
(06:22):
this is so atrocious that can happen? How do I
stop doing it? So for us, usually the lead into
those better skills that you're talking about starts in the
gun world, because that's what usually brings them in the
first place.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Interesting, we're talking with Adam Weinz from Defenders usas defenders
dash USA dot com. Adam, what I have found is
that the more training you get, the less likely you're
going to get into a gunfight. Number One, you know
how bad it can be, and just having a gun
doesn't mean you end up winning or you don't get shot.
At Number two, you understand that the aftermath of all
this can be horrendous, and you start looking for ways
(06:59):
to avoid it. And I find that people who have
been to multiple serious gun fighting schools come away with
a real appreciation not only of that, but a determination
to not have to use those skills.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Oh very much, so very much so. I mean, preferably,
you never get yourself into the moment when you've got
to use a gun for the defensive life preferably right,
And the best way to do that is to be
to build these skills.
Speaker 7 (07:25):
One.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
It builds knowledge, it builds confidence, and usually with that
knowledge and confidence, people realize I don't want to do this,
so they find a way not to right, and the
more trained, as you say, the less likely they're get
into get into that fight and more interesting mister or
missus dirtbag, right, the person that wants to do bad
things to them, they oftentimes on an instinctual level, can
sense that these people have a confidence of what they do.
(07:48):
They move really in a sense like a predator with
a moral compass, but they move that way. They seem
to handle themselves with assuredness. Therefore they don't want to
attack them. They find the people that instinctly realize have
no training, they attack them more right. Furthermore, Furthermore, if
you're that person that's been in a lethal moment, whether
it's you've used a gun to defend life, use a
(08:09):
baseball bat, a car, whatever it may be, a knife,
having gone through that once and you realize how rough
that can be in the long term aftermath of everything
that goes on in life, in your life and to yourself. Boy,
that's a hard school to go through. So if you
can get it before you go into that better and
you get that usually through multiple trainings and thoughtful trainings.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
But some folks have.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Been like you talked about, right, I've been into things,
and the worse I got into, the more I did
not want to. Yet as a young guy going off
to my first gun schools, I thought that would be
the greatest thing. Ever, quickly you realize that's the last
thing you want, so better get it in school, grow
that thought process ahead of time, then have to actually
survive it.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Two final questions. One is I have often told people, Look,
if somebody is in my house and they're stealing my TV,
I will hold the door open for them or help
them grab the other side of the TV and carry
it out, and then call the insurance cup you tell
them what happened to their TV. I'm not shooting somebody
over a TV. For Heaven's sakes, sir.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
You are my spirit animals. You and I agree completely.
It's just a TV, big honkin deal. Why take life
over a TV? Why defend sayings or stuff?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Right?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Lethally, right, it's just stuff.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
It's a TV.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
It's jewelry, it's your silverware, it's whatever. Who cares? We
never your car, it's your car.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Let them take the stupid car for heaven send exactly right.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
They're gonna steal your Gucci purse, well one of one thing.
It's just a Gucci purse. Have better taste, Get a
Louis Vuitton, right, they tell me they're better. Right, But
at the same time, it's just a purse. Let them
take it. It's your Rolex, big deal. They're fifteen thousand dollars.
You can replace it. It's if it's anything that's not
breathing life and flesh, life and flesh with a soul.
(09:57):
So can we say human? We never descend stuff lethally,
love them have it, Who cares. I don't care if
it's in your house or not.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
It's just stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Now when they come after flesh and blood life, right.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Now that's what we fight for.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Exactly now. And the and the final question is the
easy one. Iron sights are red dots?
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Well, well, well, well we we we invented the wheel,
and then we invented motors to go with wheels, and
then we invent the stuff to go around the car.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So I would say iron sights was the wheel the
red dot, and I was adding the car to the wheel.
Might as well move up with technology.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Thank you. So much. I know I pulled you out
of a class and you took some valuable time to
share your experience with us today. Adam appreciate its defenders
dash USA dot com. Adam Wench, thank you.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
My friend Jiner, thank you?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
All right? Do you take care? All right? Eight six
six talk gun? This idea, let them take the stuff.
It rankles, doesn't it? What's your take on that?
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Speaker 2 (13:32):
Well, that was a fun conversation Talking with Adam from
Defenders USA Indefenders Dash USA dot com if you won't
take a look at the training they do, where they go,
what they do, Adam which talking about the idea of
not shooting when you can. Even if you said, okay,
well i'm legally justified. Yeah, okay, fine, that's great, I
(13:56):
would offer that when people say that they really haven't
thought through the situation. My point is that the more
you look at this, the more you learn about it,
the more you study it, the more you read from
people who really know this stuff, and you go get training,
you realize, yeah, it's a life altering event. Even just
(14:21):
pulling your gun is, but certainly shooting someone is. Let
me describe a little bit of a scenario because I
know people say, well, if you send my house thought
of shooting, Well, maybe what if I told you, okay,
if it's in my house, I will ruin my life.
(14:43):
So what Yeah, because that's what's going to happen. If
he's in my house, I am going to bankrupt myself. Huh.
Let me rethink that a little bit. If he's in
my house, I'm going to lose my job and get divorce.
What what? Because those are things that often happen after
(15:07):
you shoot someone. Those are things that often happen after
you kill someone in self defense. You lose your money,
you lose your house, you lose your marriage, you almost
certainly lose your friends over what a TV? You're stealing
(15:29):
some stuff, things that can be replaced. I understand the
feeling of violation. So let me give you maybe some alternatives,
because you're thinking, what do I do? What do I do?
It's okay to have your gun. Somebody breaks into your house, Okay,
what is the goal here? Is the goal to make
(15:52):
them dead?
Speaker 11 (15:53):
No?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I would suggest that if you are a thinking person,
if you've thought this through, if younderstanding the ramifications involved here,
the goal is to get him out of your house.
You don't want him in your house, Okay, with or
without the stuff. I don't care. Stuff's just stuff. I mean,
I understand you need to say it over and over again.
Stuff is just stuff. Everything can be replaced, literally, everything
(16:16):
can be replaced, except the people. Except the people in
your life, the family members. If they come for them,
I'll bet you are off. Do what you gotta do.
I remember Clint Smith at class and he was talking
about somebody breaking into the house, and I mean Clyt
(16:37):
Smith at Thunder Ranch has skills, let's just put it
that way, and he could do what was necessary to
shoot somebody in legal means. But as he described the scenario,
he's got a shotgun with a light on it, and
he says, I'm going to light him up with the
light and then yell get out of my house. Huh.
(17:03):
And if that accomplishes that thing and makes them get
out of my house, boy, talk about your win. Win.
But you must have thought about these things ahead of time.
You can't come up with this plan on the spot,
because more than likely you're going to default to stupid
TV shows and movies because that's what gets in our brains, right,
(17:27):
because that's what we've exposed ourselves to. Rather than going
and attending forty hours of really good gun training, self defense,
gunfighting school, we watch forty hours of stupid movies and
TV shows. I don't care if it's Kojak or Ncis
or John Wayne or John Wick, it doesn't matter. It's
(17:49):
all wrong, it's all bad for you. It's just garbage
you're pouring into your brain. And the only way I
know of, honestly, to get rid of that stuff that
we all have in our heads that were carrying around
is to go get some training, to go talk to
somebody who knows this stuff, to start reading books about
(18:10):
to watch well, watch our TV show, our First Person
Offender TV show. It's on YouTube. Look for First Person
Offender on the gun Talk media site, and that helps
you start the process of Oh, I never thought of that. Huh,
I didn't realize that. Let's go Line three. Terry's with
(18:32):
us out of Fargo, North Dakota. Hello Terry, You've got
some thoughts on this. What are you thinking?
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Well, there was some discussion about, you know, somebody comes
in and takes your TV, you let and take it.
I live in an older house. Well, I have glass
on both back at front door, and the crime has
gotten quite a bit worse in this town, shootings and
(19:00):
everything else. Now I don't carry but for home protection purposes.
As I told your screener that I hear the window
break and they're coming in. I'm not gonna let them
take that TV because I don't know what their intentions are.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
No, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're not gonna let them
take the TV because you don't know what their intenders are.
But if their intenders are to take the TV, what
are you gonna.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Do, okay, But my mindset is that if they if
they break the glass to come into the house and
I'm sleeping and I get up, I'm not gonna let
him go through the house to get the TV.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
What are you gonna do?
Speaker 5 (19:49):
You know, I'm not gonna let him in.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Well, I'm not saying that. Nobody's letting anyone in if
somebody is in you your house. I mean, this is
real world, very detail. You got to get very specific
rather than like these overarching thoughts. Specifically, what are you
going to do?
Speaker 5 (20:12):
My thinking is that if the window is broke and
they have to reach down and unlock the dead bolt
and come in, am I supposed to just let them
come in and take what they want?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Nope, no one's saying that. I don't think if I
ever said that. What I'm saying is you tell them
to get out of your house.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Oh of course, of course.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, okay on them Okay. I mean see that's the
part that got left out because it sounds like you're
saying if they if they break the glass, I'm gonna
shoot them. I'm thinking, well, it's not a good plan.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
No, no, no, no, I would just no, I would
give them verbal warning and hopefully they sleeve you know, Okay, I'm.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
With you there. It's like, get out of my house.
I've called the police, I have a gun. Whatever you
got to say at the top of your voice to
let him know, give them an opportunity to save themselves.
And frankly, you now to your point. But if they
turn around and they start coming at you, all bets
are off. You gotta do what you got to do right.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
Right, And I would hope it never come to that,
but it's like, I, you know, I've got a family
to protect too, and I don't know, like I said,
the crime has gone so much worse than his tone.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, and I understand where you are and the crimes higher,
and you know you're thinking, I don't want anybody to
hurt me in mind, but it sounds like and you've
done a good job of actually thinking this through, which
is if he breaks my glass he's in the house,
you know, I will have my gun. Doesn't even gonna
shoot him. If he's carrying the TV out, I'm going
to let him leap if he's you know, but I'm
going to give him an opportunity to make a good
(21:59):
choice and leave and just say, look, get out of
my house. At the top of my voice. I have
a gun. I call the police and more than likely
I'll leave. But if they turn and come at you, you
got to protect yourself. You gotta protect your family. Eat
six ' six Talk Gun. How do you approach this? All? Right?
(22:24):
Back with you? Eat sixty six Talk Gun. I'm Tom Grasham.
This is gun Talk, And here's the deal. You do
not have to agree with me to call in. If
you don't like guns, give me a holler, let's talk
about it. You can tell me why you don't like
one of my other things. I've said, Well, let's talk
about it. That's why we do this, so we can
run these ideas around. There you go, and I am
(22:45):
very quick to adopt new ideas when presented with good information.
I think maybe Bill's call them in with a at
least a disagreement it. Bill's an idol. Hey, Bill, you're
on Gun Talk. What's up, sir? Yeah?
Speaker 6 (22:58):
Hi Tom?
Speaker 7 (22:59):
How you doing your show?
Speaker 9 (23:00):
Hey?
Speaker 7 (23:01):
Well, my past experience twenty three years in law enforcement,
I did have the opportunity to go through the PFI
course the FBI put on for Police Farms Instruction you're
wrong about this. There's no absolutely no way you know
what anybody's going to be doing, and if they come
into your home, you have to deal with it. It's
(23:25):
better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
Tom hesitation, especially with police officers, when they break leather,
now it's nylon. You break leather, you use your weapon,
go center a mass and take your target down. If
you hesitate, you may lose your life. And maybe they go, well, hey, listen,
(23:47):
let me take my TV. Where's your bedroom? Let me
go in and go through the jewelry box. You're wrong.
I don't care how you might define what I just said.
You don't hesitate, you die. They're in your home, they're
in an area that's out of bounds. And that's the
bottom line. Hesitation will get you killed. And letting them
(24:09):
take your TV or get you killed.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
And what if they didn't have Hey Bill, what if
they didn't have a gun. You just take your TV
and you just shot them dead and they didn't have
a weapon on them at all, you're not risk. No,
here's my point is they don't represent. Now. Look, here's
the deal. Here's the difference for you and me. I
don't have qualified immunity.
Speaker 7 (24:34):
Doesn't matter. Better to be tried by.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Sure, it does. It makes all the difference in the world.
What do you mean it doesn't matter? Can I take
your house and everything you owned and bankrupt you? Is
that okay with you? Of course it's not. You have
qualified immunity as a police officer, you're protected. That is
not at risk for you. It is at risk for
those of us who don't have that. And if we
ignore that, I think we're damn fools.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
Well you'd be a life fool.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
You're wrong.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
It's just that simple.
Speaker 7 (25:02):
I'm a p F instructor.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
I don't care what your qualifications are. Bill, I think
you're wrong. So there you go. You got an opinion.
I got an opinion. I appreciate the call. Let's throw
it out there and let some other people weigh in
on this. He says, if they're in your house, just
shoot them because you don't know what they're going to do.
And I say, well, you know what, I think that
might be just slightly premature, because if they're in their house,
(25:26):
they may be your drunk neighbor who got confused and
broke in the door because his key didn't fit the
lock because he thought it was his house, but it's
actually your house. And you could say, well, that's just
too bad. Well it's fine for you to say, not
great for your neighbor, and also not great for you
when the lawsuits start. So I'm just wondering where do
you come in on this. Our numbers eight sixty six
(25:47):
talk gun and Bill. Look, I appreciate the call, but
here's the deal. A police officer has a whole different
set of circumstances than we do. And if you don't
understand what qualified immunity is, it means basically, he has
immune for the most part against lawsuits. I guess being
helped privately personally. Libel are lible for his actions. He
(26:14):
doesn't have the liability there you and I do. It matters.
And look, I understand when you say, well, you don't
know what they're going to do or you know what,
I'm not going to shoot somebody because I don't know
what they're going to do if they present a threat
to me or my family. Different deal. And trust me
(26:35):
when I tell you I do have the skills necessary
for that situation. Yeah, there's a reason I have hundreds
of hours at gunfighting schools. I do have those skills,
but I hope I also have the skills to think
this through and say, Okay, there's somebody rumming around downstairs.
(26:57):
If I just yell down there and say get out
of my house and they leave, I would count that
as a win as opposed to saying he's in my house,
I must go shoot him. I don't think that as
a tenable or a viable plan, but then again, I
don't have Bill's experience as a PFI. My number here
(27:20):
is eight six six Talk gun looking for you your
take on this. I'm Tom Grasha'll be right back with
more gun talk.
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Speaker 2 (29:42):
One thing is obvious to me is that the reason
we continue to have these conversations about the shoot don't
shoot scenarios is because it's not easy to determine what's
right when we do our forcen force training and I'm
a Certifightsimundition's instructor. When you do force force training and
you're working with people who may or may not represent
(30:03):
a threat, it's not easy to sort this out. Now,
if someone is coming at you with a gun or
a knife and threatening you, that's pretty clear. But there
are other circumstances where you don't really know is this
a shooter or not a shoot situation? And that's why
we get training, That's why you work through it, and
it's why you could end up with people that have
(30:23):
differences of opinion on this, people who are informed and
trained and have experience in it. And I think that's
what we just had with Bill being a police officer
and a firem's instructor. He says, I'm just wrong. He says, Tom,
You're just wrong, And I'm saying just because someone is
in your house doesn't mean you should shoot them. I
(30:44):
will hold on to that idea. I think if someone
represents a threat to you or a family member, different
deal altogether. But if I have an opportunity to get
them to leave without throwing bullets out there, I am
going to take that opportunity. Just my idea. But then again,
as I say, I don't have qualified immunity. Let's go,
(31:06):
let's see talked with who we're going to here, guys?
Oh Nick on five and Waco, Texas. Hey Nick, you
got to take on this. What are you thinking?
Speaker 15 (31:17):
Hey Tom, this is a great subject. You know, we
all hear about take a firearms training class, which I
have done, and we that is always push telling us
know how to use your firearm properly. But the mental
aspect of it, the after the incident aspect of it,
nobody really thinks about that. And you made a comment
(31:38):
while ago what we get out of Hollywood is garbage.
I'm not gonna I'm not going to pass on offer
an opinion on whether you shoot don't shoot. One of
the critical subjects that's come up in the last couple
of callers that you had is your exposure to liability
when you pull that firearm ount and discharge it as
(32:01):
an attorney for thirty five years. The key to litigation
is insurance. If you've got good insurance, they will provide
you with an attorney. That is, if you have coverage,
it will provide you with an attorney and with indemnification.
And there are companies out there that specialize and gun
on our insurance. I'm not going to offer any name
(32:23):
or anything, but the key is whether it's in your home,
out in public. Whatever you discharge that firearm, you're a
subject to potential criminal liability depending on what state you're in.
And also if you discharge your weapon outside of the home,
you're certainly going to be subject to a criminal investigation.
(32:44):
And then there's the civil liability side of it. So
you need insurance that can provide you with a criminal
attorney possible criminal defense, or a civil attorney to defend
you in a civil case.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
If am I right in thinking that we are citizens civilians,
if you will, are vastly in a different position than
someone that has qualified immunity and protection as a police officer.
Speaker 15 (33:12):
Oh, certainly there is that distinction. Certainly, I'm not saying
that every officer that pulls his gun is going to
you know, have the cloak of immunity, right the Atturney
I work with, that's his business. I mean he's defending
officers all the time that are involved in this. That's
out of my expertise, but I will say there is
(33:36):
that distinction. You know, as an officer of the law,
you've got that the potential coverage of immunity, not coverage,
but protection of immunity.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Well, and it goes to what you're saying is that
you need to provide that for yourself in the form
of good now not just insurance, but good insurance. People
need to know what they're buying because and I call
it go away money. If you have a million dollar policy,
sometimes that is enough to just make somebody go away
and not sue you and try to take everything you have.
(34:07):
So and sometimes the insurance company will just say, look here,
we'll offer you some go away money, or as you say,
they will provide you with an attorney and protection in
different ways. You know, this kind of insurance is not
really expensive. It's interesting. You may be looking at anywhere
between one hundred and three hundred dollars a year, and
what you're doing with that is protecting literally everything you own.
(34:31):
Is that a fair statement.
Speaker 15 (34:33):
That's a fair statement, and it's gonna the premium will
very probably depending on that. You can select the level
of coverage. You mentioned a million dollars. I don't know
what the levels are now. It's you know, maybe five
hundred thousand, minimum, three hundred thousand, and then upwards from there,
and that'll affect, of course, affect your premium and then
the scope of your coverage, whether you want just criminal protection,
(34:55):
civil protection, and so forth.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Right, Well, I appreciate if.
Speaker 15 (35:00):
You're involved in if you're involved in a shooting, the
civil attorneys are coming after you. Period.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yes. I always tell people, look, when you pull the trigger,
it's one hundred grand just to pull the trigger's going
to be one hundred grand just to start. That's like
the andy to get into the game. And you just
need to be aware of that.
Speaker 7 (35:18):
Now.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
It may be well worth it if they say he's
trying to kill me, or he's trying to you know,
kidnap my kid. Do what you got to do. Uh,
but just understand what we're looking at here. And that's
why I come back to I'm not going to shoot
somebody over a TV.
Speaker 15 (35:33):
Well, I'm like I say, I don't want to. I
don't want to offer an opinion on that. I just
if if, if me personally, I know I have good
coverage insurance, that question is off the table. In that moment,
I'm staring down at somebody who's just broken into my
house and I've got, you know, the red dot on
their chest and a forty five loaded and cocked and ready,
(35:56):
you know, do I pull the trigger? I don't want
to have a discussion and to see if there are
other concepts he might entertain or she might entertain. I'm
going to make it I'm gonna make it clear you
have the option to get the hell out of my
house or you know, it's your choice. Basically, something along
(36:18):
those lines.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Give them an opportunity to make a good choice. Here.
Speaker 15 (36:23):
Well, it gets rid of this thought of oh god,
if I pull the trigger or that, you know, am
I going to have theyre going to take my home,
They're going to take this Am I going to have
anything left?
Speaker 7 (36:30):
You know, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
By having the insurance, you kind of wipe out that concern.
And now we're really just saying, if you would like
to leave my house now, that would be a good thing.
But if you decide to stay here. I am prepared
to do what we got to do with that as well.
I appreciate the calls are good insights there. Let's go
grab Bill and boise Idaho. Hey Bill, you're on gun Talk.
What are you thinking?
Speaker 16 (36:53):
How you doing? I'm going to be retired cop out
of California. And we were taught to not advertise what
we would do, like on social media or talk with
our friends or anything. Well, you know, I'll blow that
guy away if he comes into the house that type
of day, because you've already set yourself up for the
(37:14):
when the civil trial comes, and it will come. Also,
we were taught, we were taught when we buy our
concealed carry weapon, not to buy a firearm with a
scary name like Python our street sweeper, because that scares juries.
The other thing was not to buy the most deadliest
(37:34):
bullet that you could possibly buy, because that also scares juries.
And not to modify your handgun with the trigger or
anything like that, because the gun then doesn't operate the
way the manufacturer met it to operate. Also, I agree
with the million dollar policy. At least you are going
(37:57):
to get sued civilly say it's some organic that breaks
into your house at kill him and his girlfriend has
nothing left but the heroine spoon me left behind.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
She is going to sue you. Oh yeah, and there
will be a team of a lawyers who will take
that case with the idea of just getting a settlement
which can bankrupt you. They don't care about that. They're
just going to come after you and all of a
sudden you're bankrupt. So the insurance, and the previous caller
made a good point. If you have the insurance, you
can take that concern off the table, so you can
(38:31):
just deal with the threat or not threat, whatever it is,
with the situation as it is. Look, I appreciate the
call them up against my break here and I've got
to scoot out here. I appreciate that. I'm just wondering
as you processed all of this, and you can tell
this is not easy stuff. It's not like well, it's
just obviously what you do well, you don't know. It depends.
And that's why we keep throwing these scenarios out with
(38:53):
First Person Offender show is what if that? What about this?
Oh you didn't think about that thing, did you? Yeah,
well it's time to think about it. Ahead of time.
They coming up in a few minutes. We're gonna be
talking with some of the gun Talk crew and they've
(39:14):
been out getting alligators down in Louisiana. I'll have some
stories for you, and I'll share my story of rescuing
my radio gear, getting around the roadblocks and slipping in
here and pulling it out so we could do the
show funny stories here. Got caught in the middle of
a massive storm. Should not have been there in the
middle of that. Let's go to the phones. Let's see
(39:35):
Marks with us out of North Dakota on too. Hello, Mark,
what's going on in North Dakota?
Speaker 16 (39:41):
Oh, not much right now. I'm sure it's gonna be
here soon.
Speaker 17 (39:44):
But yeah, we'll listen to North Dakota. I listened to
that guy there in Bargo, and I can understand they're
having problems over there, and they're coming here too.
Speaker 16 (39:51):
With night times ten.
Speaker 17 (39:53):
If somebody gonna come through your front tories, not give
you a loan. I have the longer screws that if
they're to come through my front door, they're going to
work for it. I got an eighty pound eighty pound
dog that I considered to be one of my kids
and he he recognizes himself for as a as a
as a little boy. Anyway, if he gets through that,
(40:13):
if he gets through him, he's got a I got
an eight pound chuaha. And all the time that he's
gonna be on camera while the way he's going through
all this. So if he gets through those guys, he's done.
Because I have the right under the Constitution in North
Dakota to protect my life, my family, and my and
my property and those I consider are my property, so
(40:36):
I can I can defend him.
Speaker 16 (40:37):
And I also have insurance.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
So he let me let me ask you a question here.
You you mentioned having long screws. Are you talking about
like in your doors your door jam? You replaced the
screws there, Yeah, made.
Speaker 17 (40:51):
A longer and that's it's it's gonna help for a
few seconds. But I mean, like I said, it's it's uh.
By the time he gets I get through that door,
we'll be on the phone the nine one one, and
my wife will have the camera on and my dogs
will be at the door to greet them. And like
I said, it's you know, nobody really wants to deal
with an eighty pound dog.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
You know, it's not a bad thought. It's a dog
is a pretty good deterrent. Even just yapping a barking dog.
A lot of times we'll turn somebody away and make
them go to someplace where they don't have that going on. So,
just as a burglar alarm or a deterrent, and not
even talking about a dog jumping on somebody, just having
a dog is not a bad idea at all. Look,
(41:34):
I appreciate the call, sir, the uh this is basically
what he was just describing as this multi layered approach.
And I like that idea because I find some people
just go to gun, no gun, and the gun is
the whole approach and going, well, let's think about that longer.
Screwsing your door jam? What would that do? Well? That
(41:56):
makes it harder to kick in the door. It's you know,
let's have better locks. Why because it makes it harder?
Why do we want to make it harder because it
takes more time? Time is important here. Time when they
may say I don't want to do this. If they're
sitting there kicking the kike and the kick it and
kick it and kick it and they're not getting in
the door or time, that allows you more time to
(42:19):
prepare to call nine to one one, to get your gun,
to get your flashlight, to gather your family together in
one place so that you are now in a defensible situation.
And personally, look, you do what you gotta do. You
figure it out for me. I'm not gonna go look
for trouble. I'm gonna hold up someplace that's defensible. I'm
(42:43):
gonna make him come through the door, which is called
the fatal funnel if they come in there after I've
been saying I have a gun, I have called the police,
get out of my house. And then they decide, if
they're drugged up, whatever's going on, they decide to come in.
Once they come through the door, their mind, I own
him at that point, and we're going to take care
of the situation. That's me. You've got to figure it
(43:05):
out for yourself. But I like the conversation because it
gets people to start thinking about all these whatdips. What
if he has a gun and he's walking around inside
your house, he's not pointed at you, but do you
shoot him? Oh, that's a whole different set of circumstances,
isn't it. Huh, say you what we've come back, We're
gonna be talking about that and more, alligators down in
(43:28):
Louisiana and crossing a storm cross Lake where I never
should have been with the lightning was popping. But I
did it all for you,
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