October 24, 2024 • 38 mins
What are the actual costs of a self-defense situation? Mike Darter of CCW Safe joins Gun Talk Nation’s Ryan Gresham to discuss the aftermath and the wake of destruction after a self-defense act.
Learn more: https://ccwsafe.com/
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Gun Talk Nation 10.24.24
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Learn more: https://ccwsafe.com/
This Gun Talk Nation is brought to you by SecureIt, Silencer Central, Wheeler Tools, Range Ready Studios, Remington, EOTECH, Smith & Wesson, Build Box, RCBS, Franklin Armory and Hodgdon Powder.
For more content, subscribe to Gun Talk at guntalktv.com, on Gun Talk's Roku, Apple TV, iOS app, Android app, or find Gun Talk on YouTube, Rumble, Facebook, Instagram, X and guntalk.com. Listen to all Gun Talk Podcasts with Spreaker, iHeart, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you find podcasts.
Copyright ©2024 Freefire Media, LLC
Gun Talk Nation 10.24.24
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you shoot somebody in your home, you're probably not
gonna be the one cleaning that up. You're probably gonna
want to have a team come out, and there are
teams or has my teams that come out and that
deal with that. That's typically starting around three to thirty
five hundred dollars.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm Ryan Gresham and this this is gun Talk Nation.
This Gun Talk Nation is brought to you by Secure It, Silence,
A Central Wheeler, Range Ready, Remington Eotech, Smith and Wesson
(00:46):
Build Box RCBS, and Franklin Armory. All Right, welcome into
gun Talk Nation, talking to Mike Darter CCW Safe.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Mike, you're kind.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Of an interesting guy for being a founder for this
because this started off with you getting into a shooting, right, Yeah,
as a police officer.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Yeah, the backstory was that.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
So yeah, so tell me about that.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
So I was.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I spent ten years with Oklahoma City Police Department and
then I spent ten years with ATF contracting out of Dallas,
and so most of my career were gangs. And for
a short time when I was in Oklahoma City, I
was on a plane closed team and we were each
(01:38):
each division had this team that was a street level
felony team. A lot of my division is a lot
of narcotics, so we were a self sufficient team. So
we we did our own you know, investigations, interviews, raids, everything.
(01:59):
In that time, I ran a four hundred entries I
was on entry team ran about four hundred entries in
the two years that I was there, And you know,
you run that many entries, you know, your time comes up.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
And I was generally most of the time, I was.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Number two man in the door, and you know, we
were That was probably at the height of my training.
We trained a lot, you know, on the mats, but
then we also trained off the mats. We trained at
the range, we trained in you know, running different scenarios.
And so we had a case where it was an
ongoing investigation. We had information on a house guys just
(02:44):
got out of prison. He was a prison gang member,
White Supremact gang member, and we had information on him
selling drugs.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
And so you're not allowed to do that if you
here felling.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
And you're felling out. O. They kind of frowned upon that.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
They were just sure, yeah, okay, So he got out,
went right back into you know the business what he knew.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Yeah, yeah, and uh so we had a c I.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
We ran at the house and uh, you know, got
to buy came out and the c I said he
had a gun. He was bragging about shooting to black
guys who tried to you know, pull a home invasion
on him and made this story up and said he
had did have a gun.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
He said it was a big gun.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
We we after talking debriefing, sounded like his probably three
fifty seven or something like that.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
Okay, revolver. And so we you know, got.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
A warrant on the house, and we checked hospitals, we
checked CAD, we checked you know, dispatch everything we couldn't
We couldn't verify or come firm that there was anything
anything that happened like he said there.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Was shooting at the house or anything. So, uh, you know,
the c I was.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
A female, so we kind of thought, well, he's probably
just you know, trying trying to yeah, brag a little bit,
made up some stuff. But at the same time, it
was then he had this story in his head and
it was like, Okay, if we hit that door, most
likely we're going to be facing and shooting. So anyways,
(04:36):
we ended up running the warrant and uh, they kicked
it to we had a full time or we had
a tack team at that time. It wasn't a full
time tack team, but we had a tactical unit, and
he kicked it to them and we did a lot
of training with them at the time, and their there.
The administration said, no, they're not going to run. It's
(04:56):
too high risk. So they kicked it back to us
and we're like, two high rids.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, what does that mean? You know, I mean, somebody's
got to go do this. And something happened. I can't
remember what something happened. I went to my tent and said, hey,
we're going to run this warrant and he said he said, yeah,
we all put it on the board. And it kind
of surprised me because I was like, really, you're going
to run this warrant. So we get it on the board,
which means, you know, we go do surveillance on the
(05:24):
house and we try to get a lay out from
what we see of the pipes and the walls and
the doors and everything, and we build a layup on
the board. We get the entry team go over it.
We have uniformed officers and as we're rolling to the house.
We turned a corner and I remember sliding the door
(05:44):
open and we were, you know, coming up to the
house and the next door there was a kid playing
in the front yard, probably a uh from one I remember,
you know, probably an elementary school aged kid playing in
the front yard and this dad was on the porch
and he like ran out, scooped his kid up, ran
(06:05):
him in the house. And at that time, I mean,
it's like this foreshadowing. I was like, or we're going
to get into shooting's like I like I knew its like,
and I think we all probably knew that. And so,
you know, we go up to the house and you know,
knock announce. We uh, it was an immediate entry because
(06:28):
it was a high risk warrant sort.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Of a knock knock bang kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Is that that you had to.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Knock announce and uh you give like, you know a
second for them to see if there's any response, and
then they slammed the door, and you know, on the entry,
slammed the door and then you give just a brief
pause after the slam because if there's any shots fired,
we brief pause and then we ran dynamic entries at
(06:57):
that time, and my.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Partner and I were the only two. He was number one,
I was number two.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And we made it just inside the house and I remember,
you know, entering and I turned.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
My partner went right.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I went left, and there was a couch and suspect
was laying on the.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Couch and he was rolling up with the raising up.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
The gun raising up looked like a cannon at night,
you know, because it's a big guy.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Could have touched I could have reached out and touched
his feet. He was laying that close.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I was right at the door, and as he's rolling out,
I saw a big muzzle flash and did.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You hear it?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I heard a pop, yeah, And we talked about physiological effects,
you know. I had tunnel vision everything. In fact, I
had everything went to that gun. And my first round
as he was rolling up, was in the back of
his hand.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
In his hand.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
He kind of pulled back, dropped the gun on his
stomach and he was trying to grab the gun and I.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Heard one shot.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Everything tunneled in and I remember I never saw my sights,
but I remember I saw the entry ones. So as
he rolled up, I saw the first round hit the
back of his hand. Every time, you know, slowed down,
which is another thing that's common, especially if you have
a lot of training. And I just remember walking, you know,
(08:29):
walking him up his arm and up his body. And
so I got to a point I fired three shots, stopped,
he was still moving. Three more shots or I saw
four shots, stopped, three more shots, and at that point
I knew it was done. But I thought when I
(08:53):
saw the muzzle flash, I thought he got around off
and I thought he probably hit my partner. But I
didn't know because I had tunnel vision in on.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
This and did your partner shoot?
Speaker 4 (09:05):
He did shoot, So the muzza flash was his round,
no kidding.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So he had a sig. I had a glock twenty
one forty five caliber. He had a sig. And as
he was as he was entered and he went right,
I was going left, and he saw the threat and
kind of fired.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
On the run and his stowpipe.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Really yeah, So I engaged and he was tapping, racking,
clearing his gun. I remember looking at him, looking over
briefly at him and saw him and I was like
tapping my arm to okay. You know, at this point,
we're going from a dynamic entry, we're locking everything down,
going to limited and so yeah, that was the that
(09:48):
was the incident, and it was actually more than that.
So when I when I saw him, I saw a
dark hallway behind him and I was tapping my arm
to try to get him to me, and I think
I said watch your back, and as you know, I
just looked at him for a second and came.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Back to the guy I engaged, and then.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I heard five more shots pop pop, and I looked
turned it and he was running at me, and so
we back out. No you're you're my partner, and everybody
had kind of because I just made it into the doorway.
When he was rolling up, everybody split on the front
of the house, the rest of the team, so we
(10:34):
backed out. I remember going to the corner. I reloaded.
I was telling everybody to get get on the corners,
lock it down. At that point, I thought, you know,
I was like, man, this we got a compound. Here
was going to be like Waco, because Waco was around
that time and it was familiar with me and.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
Another man.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
So the dad came out and collapsed on the front
porch and I was like, who is that? And my
partner said, that's a guy you saw behind me, and
I was like, I didn't see I saw a dark
hallway behind you. But right when I said that, he
came out. My partner was probably five five eight, one
hundred and sixty pounds.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Okay, he was.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
He's why he was one and I was number two
because I could go over him. And so right when
I said that, Daddy came out and grabbed him around
the neck and grabbed his gun and tried to pull
him back in the hall and he just turned and
fired one shot. But that one shot, I guess my
you know, my ears were coming back and I heard
(11:39):
this five shots, So it was five shots.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
He fired one shot.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
No kidding, And yeah, that's crazy. I mean, so you've.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Been there, You've had that real life shooting and know
what it feels like, sounds like, all those things. And
we're going to talk about the aftermath of years and
what that led to with CCW safe.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
But let's take a quick break.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
After the break, I want to talk about the costs
associated with getting into a self defended shooting because people,
I don't think they appreciate what it costs. Yeah, upgrade
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Armory dot com, Mike CCWSA if you guys deal with
this all the time, but I thought, let's talk really
about what does it actually cost and what do you
actually have to pay for?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
So I mean, run us through this.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I mean there's there's different varieties right from basic.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Issues to all the way up to like murder one.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
So right, what do you.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Think, Well, I guess to just start with kind of
the low end. Yeah, let's just one of the things
we deal with a lot is a brandishing cases where
somebody's pulled a firearm. The suspect leaves, you know, but
they don't call police. The other guy calls police, and
now they're.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Police show up to say you were just waving guns around?
What's that going to cost?
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Five thousand, minimum, five thousand maybe to fifteen thousand.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Really fifteen thousand even if you did everything right.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, okay, and depending on you know, there's a lot
to go in at what jurisdiction you know you're in.
What's the political climate of that jurisdiction. Uh So there's
a lot that goes into it. But for us, what
we've seen is a minimum of five thousand up to
about fifteen thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Okay, Now let's talk about the fight that everybody has
in their head. Bad guy breaks into your house, you
shoot them, But then maybe you live, like you said,
in a jurisdiction where the DA wants to make a
name of himself charges you with murder one.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
What are all the things that are going to come
up that they're gonna have.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
To pay for?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
There's going to be a lot, and it comes in
stages over probably a two year period is what you're
looking at if it's going to go to trial. First off,
you mentioned in the home. If you shoot somebody in
your home, you're probably not going to be the one
cleaning that up. You're probably going to want to have
a team come out, and there are teams or has
(16:55):
my team that come out that deal with that.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
That's typically starting.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Around three to thirty five hundred dollars to have somebody
come up and clean they may have to cut the carpet,
they may have to take you know, outplooring whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Probably it like that, right until you actually have somebody
come and fix it.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, so it's gonna and like I said, it's gonna
be over time. But minimum cost of just having a
cleanup done is gonna be probably thirty five hundred to
five thousand dollars, So.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
As much as five thousand, Yeah, okay, then what.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
And some of these are ranges, some are kind of
more hard set. First typically is the first thing that
you're gonna have to pay for is an attorney. And
if somebody has been shot, especially if somebody has is deceased,
that attorney. What we're seeing a the retainer fee is
(17:48):
minimum of one hundred thousand dollars, and that's gonna be
you know, they're gonna bill against that. You don't know
how long that's gonna last. It may last for six months,
it may last.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
For three months, it may last for a year, could
be more than that.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yes, most likely that's going to be the first phage,
which is the pre trial phase. So from the arrest
to the trial, they're going to take a retainer fee
of one hundred thousand dollars. Okay, So that could last
the entire time, most likely it won't. You're also going
(18:20):
to have have a bell that you're gonna have to
meet if somebody, if there was a shooting, somebody's decease, especially,
you're probably looking at a million dollar bond or you know,
five hundred thousand minimum, and that's going to be generally
ten percent, and they're set by a bond fee, So
it's going to be fifty thousand, two hundred thousand to.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Put up to get out of jail, basically, yes, and.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Your attorney is going to probably going to have to
fight for that. So you're gonna you're gonna have your
attorney hired, and then your attorney is going to fight
to get a bond hearing, and then if you get
the bond hearing, then you're going to have to pay
that to get out. So you've just hired an interurn
and are able to get out of jail, and you're
looking at one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand
dollars right off.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
And people say, but I get that back, right, but
you said not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
You're going to get some of it back, but it's
also going to be over a two year time so
you're not going to get that back anytime soon because
you're going to have to go through the entire process.
And if there's a trial, which could be a year
and a half to two years later, and that's common,
you're not going to get anything back until and you're
not going to get it all back. You're going to
get some of it back, but it's going to be
(19:32):
probably a couple of years later.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
What are other elements that people don't think of their
costs during this period?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
So during the pre trial is when the attorney is
going to build your case.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
They're going to need investigators.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I know we paid upwards of forty five thousand dollars
for an investigator to do, you know, depending on how
much work they have to do, where they're located.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
As far as where the scene was sure.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
So you're going to have an investigators, you're going to
have have a trial, or you're going to have experts
likes expert witnesses. May be a forensic pathologist, it may
be a firearms and to a Marx examiner. You don't
know really what you're going to need to get into
(20:17):
until they get into it, and the attorney is probably
going to decide that, and a lot of times you
may need more than one.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
In cases.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
In the cases that we've had, we've had two experts.
I think one was around sixty thousand dollars for one expert.
The other one was I think about half that we
knew we probably weren't going to use that one, but
we got it done anyways, so.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Thousand.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, and they may not even take the stand. Wow,
you know, and it may be because the trial is
going better in your favor, or it may be that
the defense is really looking at one area and they
want that expert to attack that or it maybe you know,
you pay all that money and then you get to
(21:05):
a point and they offer a plea deal or something
to play it down. So a lot of this, you know,
you may not even end up needing it, but you
have to get it done. Another area is jury consultants,
which could be probably anywhere from five to fifteen thousand dollars.
And that's going to be somebody who comes in and
(21:26):
works with the attorney and sits there during vor dire
and everybody they pull in, they get their backgrounds and
their social media and they get who these people are,
so they know who they are on the fly, and
to get somebody who really knows what they're doing in
that is going to cost some money. So even jury
experts are going to be an expense.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Anything else with the trial.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Well, and then you have, so that one hundred thousand
dollars covered the pre trial phrase, now you have if
it goes to trial. And this is it's not set
in stone, but a lot of times the attorney will say, okay,
I'll take the retainer fee on this pre trial for
this it goes to trial, and it's usually agreed, I'll
(22:10):
do pre trial for one hundred thousand and then if
it goes to trial, be another one hundred thousand for
the trial another so and that can be worked out.
You know, that's whatever the tourney sets is what they're
going to set. But generally they'll do a pre trial
phrase and then a trial phase. The trial phase can
go you know, once they start setting trial dates, once
(22:35):
they start getting the expert witnesses, all that that's going
to go.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Towards the trial phase.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So's it's a lot more than what people think. And
like I said, even if it's just even if it's
just a brandishing case, that is dropped. You know, within
a week or two, that's going to be a minimum
of probably five to fifteen thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I know that you guys have helped your members with
other things a PEP people don't expect. There's job related things,
there's counseling things. What's involved in that? I mean, I
guess that's something in a cost that people should figure
of things they might need to pay for.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Yeah, we had one case where you know, our member
was charged, he retreated twice in a standard ground state,
was charged with murder. One immediately was fired from his job.
They were going to give him three weeks pay. Luckily
we had our critical response team member went out, met
with his employer, said, look, you can't do this. This
(23:34):
guy's not been charged or this guy's not been found guilty.
He's been charged with the crime. There's a process that
we go through. Your innocent until proven guilty. So we
were able to get that member severance package for a
year's severance package for over one hundred thousand dollars versus
three weeks of what he would have gotten. Yeah, there's
things like you know, the biggest thing is we have
(23:58):
to keep our member healthy. You have to keep them
mentally emotionally healthy, which is huge when you're looking at,
you know, a trial for murder one.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
You know, we've done workout plans and workout scheduled, We've
done meal plans and diet plans to try to keep
them as healthy as we can.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
And then there's a lot of stuff that money can't buy.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
You know, we've if you're involved in a shooting and
you kill someone and go through this process, you know
what we've seen and what you know you can just
imagine are you married, you know, are you going to
stay married? Is your marriage going to withstand that? A
lot of times it doesn't. We see that, we see
(24:41):
problems with you know, kids. It's just a you know
a lot of people think, oh, well, you know, I
you know, it's not gonna affect me that much. It
might not affect you that much, but you also have
a wife and kids and it can affect them, especially
if you're in the new in the headlines, you know,
for time. So there's a lot of things that you
(25:03):
know that you can't put a price on that are
very valuable things that you can end up losing.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Well, and probably most of us don't have a spare
three hundred or four hundred thousand dollars laying around just
for fun especially. You put all that out and then
the best case scenario is you win and that money
is gone.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
Yeah, it's gone. It's gone.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
You might get, like I said, a little bit of
the you might get a portion of the of the
bond back, but that's going to be after the trial,
and if the trials two years later, you know that
usually is going to go to other things like experts.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
And that's one.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Thing you know you don't want to chance on is
if you're going to trial and you're if you're faced
with possibly, you know, spending the rest of your life
in prison, you want to be able to get the
best experts you can. And a lot of times, like
I said, it's going to be more than one.
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Yeah, all chips in on the table.
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of course you were a police officer when this shooting happened.
Your shooting happened, So those costs those were I guess
(28:14):
covered by like Fraternal Order of Police, right they handle that. Yeah,
because you did go to trial over that shooting.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Yeah, I was sued about two years right before the
statute of limitation ran out. Of course, they come and
file a suit and so it went to summary judgment and.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
It got kicked out at some re judgment.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
So I won the case, but it took about a
year and a half to get there. And you know,
at that time it probably would have been I would
I would guestimate that probably would have been about two
hundred thousand, two hundred and fifty thousand and on a
cop salary. To have to do that, it would have
been devastating. Luckily, I was a FOP member. You know,
they paid for everything, and that's where a lot of
(28:57):
the lessons came out of when we created CCW safe.
You know, years later, when I left law enforcement in
twenty eleven for good, you know, I called my step
brother Kyle Sweet, who is a trial attorney. He was
a police officer, and I said, hey, man, I need
(29:18):
something that is going.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
To cover me. You know, I don't have an FOP anymore.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
And he's like, yeah, I need something to And he
looked around and just said, man, there's there's really nothing
out there that's going to give us the comfort level
and do what we needed to do that we had
as police officers. And I think that's the biggest thing,
you know, the biggest difference between what we do and
everybody else. I fully believe that, you know, everybody in
(29:44):
the space is going to do what they say they're
going to do. They're going to have good they have,
They're going to do for their members what they're going
to what they say they're going to do. I fully
believe that we just do things a lot different. It's
a base, it all kind of goes back to that shooting.
You know Gary Eastridge, who was our Critical Response team
leader for years. You know, he was the homicide detective
(30:07):
who actually interviewed me.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
On my shooting.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
And being able understanding what comes next, understanding the legal
process from the law enforcement side, I think is huge,
and being able to manage you know that first the response.
The time from when the incident happens to the time
(30:31):
when you're charged is you know, it's like the forty
eight hours, it's like the most important time. And to
be able to have a critical response team on the
ground next to you, people who understand attorneys, people like
Don West.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Why would you talk about this because the Critical Response
team and you guys really explained it to me, and
it seems different than what some other folks are doing.
You're talking about people that are on your team who
have experienced legal or in.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
The justice system or investigators or.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Whatever, and they actually show up, like wherever this person
is in the country.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Is that how it works?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, wherever they are, Like, you know, within twelve to
twenty four hours, we have somebody on the ground. I
know we had a case in Las Vegas on Thanksgiving Day,
and the next morning we had somebody on the ground.
We had an investigator, and we had Don West on
the ground in Vegas. They were able to secure an attorney,
(31:33):
and you know, just so happened that the attorney.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
That we had already had you know a.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Good professional relationship with the homicide detector who drew that casey,
so we were able to you know, work for our
member and you know, nothing ever was done. They saw
that it was in self defense, and you know, we
got that done. And actually, what's kind of funny is
in that case, so that had three different memberships. He
(32:02):
had us and he had two others. He was paying
for three memberships.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
I guess we were the second call.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
He called one of the others first, and then he
called us, and then he called the other one. And
we were on the ground Friday, because it was third
It was on Thanksgiving Day that it happened. We were
on the ground Friday, and you know, I don't think
he got even a return call from the others until Monday.
And you know, one told him to just claim it
(32:32):
on his home homeowner's insurance, and he was like, it
didn't even happen.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
In my house. It happened in my daughter's house.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
And the other one, you know, was like, hey, we'll
get you an attorney, but by that time it had
already been done.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
So that first forty eight hours is just crucial.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
In getting you know, you hear the term let's get
the right people on the bus. Getting the right people
on the bus and getting them there to do their job.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
It's critical in the charging stage.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, And like, I'm not a guy who understand I
don't have a full understand the legal system, but I
guess there is that possible opportunity that you could if
you do the right things in that first window of time,
that you don't even get.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Charged with a crime.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Right, it's handled the right way, It's handled the right way,
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And so that's what I'm saying, not going to trial
over because there is never was a trial, because then
the proper evidence is there and you have proper legal
representation and the DA or whoever says yeah, okay, yeah,
it's this is a completely good self defense shooting.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, they have to be led, you know, down the
path of showing what happened, and you have to have
the right people there to do that.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yeah, they need help.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, I mean I remember I had, you know, some
friends who've worked in you know, his assistant DA's or
prosecutors or defenders or whatever, and a lot of those
folks they're not used to dealing with innocent people. Yeah,
I mean there's a little bit of a bias there, Like, yeah,
I deal with criminals all day long, and it's maybe
(34:11):
a little mental adjustment for them to go, No, you
understand this is a good guy, Yeah, who defended himself
in the right way.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Well, that's a great point.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And Chris Cunningham, who is one of our newer she's
a homicide detective. She's been in law enforcement for over
thirty years. She was a homicide detective for most of
that time. She's amazing. She made a point to me
when she came on and she was saying that, you know,
all her years in law enforcement and working homicides as
(34:41):
a homicide detective, she has a lane she has to
stay in and she stays in that lane professionally, that's
her job and that's the lane she stays in. And
she said when she first got hired, she went to
a call and she was like, she said, I knew immediately,
like I'm going to do this because she realized, Wow,
(35:01):
now I don't have to stay in this lane.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
I can actually help this person.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
You know that's been because they're about to get steamrolled
with our justices.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Yeah, which is just that's it's just is it is
what it is.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
You don't know what you're getting into.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
No, and all the jurisdictions are different, and you know,
you have different key people in different roles all over
and you know she made that comment of being able
to like come out of that lane, I mean, and
it was really And when you have you know, a
homicide detective or investigator investigating that case, he's got to
stay within his lane, and he's there for one thing.
(35:37):
He's there to investigate that see if there's a crime
and they need you know, help with that through you know,
your attorney and so forth, to be able to work
with them to show them an investigator if need to
show them, you know, what happened during that time, because
a lot of times they don't. We had one case
where we in one case, there was there was some
(36:00):
incidents that happened, and they didn't believe that there were
three incidents that happened. They didn't believe that the second
one happened because the video that they had, they had
two locations and the guy, you know, we had a
member attacked, he retreated, went to another location, attacked again,
went to another location with a second attack. The video
(36:22):
system from that place it didn't show anything happening.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
What it took no proof.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
It took our investigator that we hired to show that
the time stamps were off.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
And then when they lined up the time stamps there.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
It was yes, this could have happened because yeah, and then.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
They were like, oh, okay, it did happen. It was
just the time stamp was off. We were looking at
the wrong time. Wow, you know, And so just little
things like that. I mean, they need to you know,
you want the best version. That's why we say don't
talk to the police, you know when you're directly after
you know, be polite.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Hey, I want to help you best can.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
But I'm not in a frame of mind to do
that because they need the best information and we want
to help our members give the best information.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
I like kind of educating people more about this because
I think that people will have this like gunfight in
their head of like I'm going to do this and
then the cops are going to show up and they're
gonna give me a high five, and you know, thanks
for taking this gumbag off the streets.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
And man, it's not that way.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Most of I mean, it may happen like that sometimes, but.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
It's it's not that easy. Yeah, And it's never that
cut and dry. You know, there's always going to be
you get ten different people looking at one scenario, you're going.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
To get six different things that happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Well, I mean I'm glad that you guys are offering
this service as something that people. I mean, let's be honest,
if you carry a gun on I guess at all
you need to have some type of coverage.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
So you got to look into it.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Seems like you guys are doing it in a little
bit different You have shown way of doing it, which
is kind of cool and uh good to educate people
on it.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
Yeah, thanks Mike, all right, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
To see all of gun talkscontent, go to gun talk
dot com, gun talk tv dot com, or sign up
for the gun Talk newsletter.
If you shoot somebody in your home, you're probably not
gonna be the one cleaning that up. You're probably gonna
want to have a team come out, and there are
teams or has my teams that come out and that
deal with that. That's typically starting around three to thirty
five hundred dollars.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm Ryan Gresham and this this is gun Talk Nation.
This Gun Talk Nation is brought to you by Secure It, Silence,
A Central Wheeler, Range Ready, Remington Eotech, Smith and Wesson
(00:46):
Build Box RCBS, and Franklin Armory. All Right, welcome into
gun Talk Nation, talking to Mike Darter CCW Safe.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Mike, you're kind.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Of an interesting guy for being a founder for this
because this started off with you getting into a shooting, right, Yeah,
as a police officer.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Yeah, the backstory was that.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
So yeah, so tell me about that.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
So I was.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I spent ten years with Oklahoma City Police Department and
then I spent ten years with ATF contracting out of Dallas,
and so most of my career were gangs. And for
a short time when I was in Oklahoma City, I
was on a plane closed team and we were each
(01:38):
each division had this team that was a street level
felony team. A lot of my division is a lot
of narcotics, so we were a self sufficient team. So
we we did our own you know, investigations, interviews, raids, everything.
(01:59):
In that time, I ran a four hundred entries I
was on entry team ran about four hundred entries in
the two years that I was there, And you know,
you run that many entries, you know, your time comes up.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
And I was generally most of the time, I was.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Number two man in the door, and you know, we
were That was probably at the height of my training.
We trained a lot, you know, on the mats, but
then we also trained off the mats. We trained at
the range, we trained in you know, running different scenarios.
And so we had a case where it was an
ongoing investigation. We had information on a house guys just
(02:44):
got out of prison. He was a prison gang member,
White Supremact gang member, and we had information on him
selling drugs.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
And so you're not allowed to do that if you
here felling.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
And you're felling out. O. They kind of frowned upon that.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
They were just sure, yeah, okay, So he got out,
went right back into you know the business what he knew.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Yeah, yeah, and uh so we had a c I.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
We ran at the house and uh, you know, got
to buy came out and the c I said he
had a gun. He was bragging about shooting to black
guys who tried to you know, pull a home invasion
on him and made this story up and said he
had did have a gun.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
He said it was a big gun.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
We we after talking debriefing, sounded like his probably three
fifty seven or something like that.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
Okay, revolver. And so we you know, got.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
A warrant on the house, and we checked hospitals, we
checked CAD, we checked you know, dispatch everything we couldn't
We couldn't verify or come firm that there was anything
anything that happened like he said there.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Was shooting at the house or anything. So, uh, you know,
the c I was.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
A female, so we kind of thought, well, he's probably
just you know, trying trying to yeah, brag a little bit,
made up some stuff. But at the same time, it
was then he had this story in his head and
it was like, Okay, if we hit that door, most
likely we're going to be facing and shooting. So anyways,
(04:36):
we ended up running the warrant and uh, they kicked
it to we had a full time or we had
a tack team at that time. It wasn't a full
time tack team, but we had a tactical unit, and
he kicked it to them and we did a lot
of training with them at the time, and their there.
The administration said, no, they're not going to run. It's
(04:56):
too high risk. So they kicked it back to us
and we're like, two high rids.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, what does that mean? You know, I mean, somebody's
got to go do this. And something happened. I can't
remember what something happened. I went to my tent and said, hey,
we're going to run this warrant and he said he said, yeah,
we all put it on the board. And it kind
of surprised me because I was like, really, you're going
to run this warrant. So we get it on the board,
which means, you know, we go do surveillance on the
(05:24):
house and we try to get a lay out from
what we see of the pipes and the walls and
the doors and everything, and we build a layup on
the board. We get the entry team go over it.
We have uniformed officers and as we're rolling to the house.
We turned a corner and I remember sliding the door
(05:44):
open and we were, you know, coming up to the
house and the next door there was a kid playing
in the front yard, probably a uh from one I remember,
you know, probably an elementary school aged kid playing in
the front yard and this dad was on the porch
and he like ran out, scooped his kid up, ran
(06:05):
him in the house. And at that time, I mean,
it's like this foreshadowing. I was like, or we're going
to get into shooting's like I like I knew its like,
and I think we all probably knew that. And so,
you know, we go up to the house and you know,
knock announce. We uh, it was an immediate entry because
(06:28):
it was a high risk warrant sort.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Of a knock knock bang kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Is that that you had to.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Knock announce and uh you give like, you know a
second for them to see if there's any response, and
then they slammed the door, and you know, on the entry,
slammed the door and then you give just a brief
pause after the slam because if there's any shots fired,
we brief pause and then we ran dynamic entries at
(06:57):
that time, and my.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Partner and I were the only two. He was number one,
I was number two.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And we made it just inside the house and I remember,
you know, entering and I turned.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
My partner went right.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I went left, and there was a couch and suspect
was laying on the.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Couch and he was rolling up with the raising up.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
The gun raising up looked like a cannon at night,
you know, because it's a big guy.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Could have touched I could have reached out and touched
his feet. He was laying that close.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I was right at the door, and as he's rolling out,
I saw a big muzzle flash and did.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You hear it?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I heard a pop, yeah, And we talked about physiological effects,
you know. I had tunnel vision everything. In fact, I
had everything went to that gun. And my first round
as he was rolling up, was in the back of
his hand.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
In his hand.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
He kind of pulled back, dropped the gun on his
stomach and he was trying to grab the gun and I.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
Heard one shot.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Everything tunneled in and I remember I never saw my sights,
but I remember I saw the entry ones. So as
he rolled up, I saw the first round hit the
back of his hand. Every time, you know, slowed down,
which is another thing that's common, especially if you have
a lot of training. And I just remember walking, you know,
(08:29):
walking him up his arm and up his body. And
so I got to a point I fired three shots, stopped,
he was still moving. Three more shots or I saw
four shots, stopped, three more shots, and at that point
I knew it was done. But I thought when I
(08:53):
saw the muzzle flash, I thought he got around off
and I thought he probably hit my partner. But I
didn't know because I had tunnel vision in on.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
This and did your partner shoot?
Speaker 4 (09:05):
He did shoot, So the muzza flash was his round,
no kidding.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So he had a sig. I had a glock twenty
one forty five caliber. He had a sig. And as
he was as he was entered and he went right,
I was going left, and he saw the threat and
kind of fired.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
On the run and his stowpipe.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Really yeah, So I engaged and he was tapping, racking,
clearing his gun. I remember looking at him, looking over
briefly at him and saw him and I was like
tapping my arm to okay. You know, at this point,
we're going from a dynamic entry, we're locking everything down,
going to limited and so yeah, that was the that
(09:48):
was the incident, and it was actually more than that.
So when I when I saw him, I saw a
dark hallway behind him and I was tapping my arm
to try to get him to me, and I think
I said watch your back, and as you know, I
just looked at him for a second and came.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Back to the guy I engaged, and then.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I heard five more shots pop pop, and I looked
turned it and he was running at me, and so
we back out. No you're you're my partner, and everybody
had kind of because I just made it into the doorway.
When he was rolling up, everybody split on the front
of the house, the rest of the team, so we
(10:34):
backed out. I remember going to the corner. I reloaded.
I was telling everybody to get get on the corners,
lock it down. At that point, I thought, you know,
I was like, man, this we got a compound. Here
was going to be like Waco, because Waco was around
that time and it was familiar with me and.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
Another man.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
So the dad came out and collapsed on the front
porch and I was like, who is that? And my
partner said, that's a guy you saw behind me, and
I was like, I didn't see I saw a dark
hallway behind you. But right when I said that, he
came out. My partner was probably five five eight, one
hundred and sixty pounds.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Okay, he was.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
He's why he was one and I was number two
because I could go over him. And so right when
I said that, Daddy came out and grabbed him around
the neck and grabbed his gun and tried to pull
him back in the hall and he just turned and
fired one shot. But that one shot, I guess my
you know, my ears were coming back and I heard
(11:39):
this five shots, So it was five shots.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
He fired one shot.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
No kidding, And yeah, that's crazy. I mean, so you've.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Been there, You've had that real life shooting and know
what it feels like, sounds like, all those things. And
we're going to talk about the aftermath of years and
what that led to with CCW safe.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
But let's take a quick break.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
After the break, I want to talk about the costs
associated with getting into a self defended shooting because people,
I don't think they appreciate what it costs. Yeah, upgrade
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Speaker 3 (13:17):
We like this.
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Armory dot com, Mike CCWSA if you guys deal with
this all the time, but I thought, let's talk really
about what does it actually cost and what do you
actually have to pay for?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
So I mean, run us through this.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I mean there's there's different varieties right from basic.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Issues to all the way up to like murder one.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
So right, what do you.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Think, Well, I guess to just start with kind of
the low end. Yeah, let's just one of the things
we deal with a lot is a brandishing cases where
somebody's pulled a firearm. The suspect leaves, you know, but
they don't call police. The other guy calls police, and
now they're.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Police show up to say you were just waving guns around?
What's that going to cost?
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Five thousand, minimum, five thousand maybe to fifteen thousand.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Really fifteen thousand even if you did everything right.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, okay, and depending on you know, there's a lot
to go in at what jurisdiction you know you're in.
What's the political climate of that jurisdiction. Uh So there's
a lot that goes into it. But for us, what
we've seen is a minimum of five thousand up to
about fifteen thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Okay, Now let's talk about the fight that everybody has
in their head. Bad guy breaks into your house, you
shoot them, But then maybe you live, like you said,
in a jurisdiction where the DA wants to make a
name of himself charges you with murder one.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
What are all the things that are going to come
up that they're gonna have.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
To pay for?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
There's going to be a lot, and it comes in
stages over probably a two year period is what you're
looking at if it's going to go to trial. First off,
you mentioned in the home. If you shoot somebody in
your home, you're probably not going to be the one
cleaning that up. You're probably going to want to have
a team come out, and there are teams or has
(16:55):
my team that come out that deal with that.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
That's typically starting.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Around three to thirty five hundred dollars to have somebody
come up and clean they may have to cut the carpet,
they may have to take you know, outplooring whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Probably it like that, right until you actually have somebody
come and fix it.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, so it's gonna and like I said, it's gonna
be over time. But minimum cost of just having a
cleanup done is gonna be probably thirty five hundred to
five thousand dollars, So.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
As much as five thousand, Yeah, okay, then what.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
And some of these are ranges, some are kind of
more hard set. First typically is the first thing that
you're gonna have to pay for is an attorney. And
if somebody has been shot, especially if somebody has is deceased,
that attorney. What we're seeing a the retainer fee is
(17:48):
minimum of one hundred thousand dollars, and that's gonna be
you know, they're gonna bill against that. You don't know
how long that's gonna last. It may last for six months,
it may last.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
For three months, it may last for a year, could
be more than that.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yes, most likely that's going to be the first phage,
which is the pre trial phase. So from the arrest
to the trial, they're going to take a retainer fee
of one hundred thousand dollars. Okay, So that could last
the entire time, most likely it won't. You're also going
(18:20):
to have have a bell that you're gonna have to
meet if somebody, if there was a shooting, somebody's decease, especially,
you're probably looking at a million dollar bond or you know,
five hundred thousand minimum, and that's going to be generally
ten percent, and they're set by a bond fee, So
it's going to be fifty thousand, two hundred thousand to.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Put up to get out of jail, basically, yes, and.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Your attorney is going to probably going to have to
fight for that. So you're gonna you're gonna have your
attorney hired, and then your attorney is going to fight
to get a bond hearing, and then if you get
the bond hearing, then you're going to have to pay
that to get out. So you've just hired an interurn
and are able to get out of jail, and you're
looking at one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand
dollars right off.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
And people say, but I get that back, right, but
you said not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
You're going to get some of it back, but it's
also going to be over a two year time so
you're not going to get that back anytime soon because
you're going to have to go through the entire process.
And if there's a trial, which could be a year
and a half to two years later, and that's common,
you're not going to get anything back until and you're
not going to get it all back. You're going to
get some of it back, but it's going to be
(19:32):
probably a couple of years later.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
What are other elements that people don't think of their
costs during this period?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
So during the pre trial is when the attorney is
going to build your case.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
They're going to need investigators.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I know we paid upwards of forty five thousand dollars
for an investigator to do, you know, depending on how
much work they have to do, where they're located.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
As far as where the scene was sure.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
So you're going to have an investigators, you're going to
have have a trial, or you're going to have experts
likes expert witnesses. May be a forensic pathologist, it may
be a firearms and to a Marx examiner. You don't
know really what you're going to need to get into
(20:17):
until they get into it, and the attorney is probably
going to decide that, and a lot of times you
may need more than one.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
In cases.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
In the cases that we've had, we've had two experts.
I think one was around sixty thousand dollars for one expert.
The other one was I think about half that we
knew we probably weren't going to use that one, but
we got it done anyways, so.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Thousand.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, and they may not even take the stand. Wow,
you know, and it may be because the trial is
going better in your favor, or it may be that
the defense is really looking at one area and they
want that expert to attack that or it maybe you know,
you pay all that money and then you get to
(21:05):
a point and they offer a plea deal or something
to play it down. So a lot of this, you know,
you may not even end up needing it, but you
have to get it done. Another area is jury consultants,
which could be probably anywhere from five to fifteen thousand dollars.
And that's going to be somebody who comes in and
(21:26):
works with the attorney and sits there during vor dire
and everybody they pull in, they get their backgrounds and
their social media and they get who these people are,
so they know who they are on the fly, and
to get somebody who really knows what they're doing in
that is going to cost some money. So even jury
experts are going to be an expense.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Anything else with the trial.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Well, and then you have, so that one hundred thousand
dollars covered the pre trial phrase, now you have if
it goes to trial. And this is it's not set
in stone, but a lot of times the attorney will say, okay,
I'll take the retainer fee on this pre trial for
this it goes to trial, and it's usually agreed, I'll
(22:10):
do pre trial for one hundred thousand and then if
it goes to trial, be another one hundred thousand for
the trial another so and that can be worked out.
You know, that's whatever the tourney sets is what they're
going to set. But generally they'll do a pre trial
phrase and then a trial phase. The trial phase can
go you know, once they start setting trial dates, once
(22:35):
they start getting the expert witnesses, all that that's going
to go.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Towards the trial phase.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So's it's a lot more than what people think. And
like I said, even if it's just even if it's
just a brandishing case, that is dropped. You know, within
a week or two, that's going to be a minimum
of probably five to fifteen thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I know that you guys have helped your members with
other things a PEP people don't expect. There's job related things,
there's counseling things. What's involved in that? I mean, I
guess that's something in a cost that people should figure
of things they might need to pay for.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Yeah, we had one case where you know, our member
was charged, he retreated twice in a standard ground state,
was charged with murder. One immediately was fired from his job.
They were going to give him three weeks pay. Luckily
we had our critical response team member went out, met
with his employer, said, look, you can't do this. This
(23:34):
guy's not been charged or this guy's not been found guilty.
He's been charged with the crime. There's a process that
we go through. Your innocent until proven guilty. So we
were able to get that member severance package for a
year's severance package for over one hundred thousand dollars versus
three weeks of what he would have gotten. Yeah, there's
things like you know, the biggest thing is we have
(23:58):
to keep our member healthy. You have to keep them
mentally emotionally healthy, which is huge when you're looking at,
you know, a trial for murder one.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
You know, we've done workout plans and workout scheduled, We've
done meal plans and diet plans to try to keep
them as healthy as we can.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
And then there's a lot of stuff that money can't buy.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
You know, we've if you're involved in a shooting and
you kill someone and go through this process, you know
what we've seen and what you know you can just
imagine are you married, you know, are you going to
stay married? Is your marriage going to withstand that? A
lot of times it doesn't. We see that, we see
(24:41):
problems with you know, kids. It's just a you know
a lot of people think, oh, well, you know, I
you know, it's not gonna affect me that much. It
might not affect you that much, but you also have
a wife and kids and it can affect them, especially
if you're in the new in the headlines, you know,
for time. So there's a lot of things that you
(25:03):
know that you can't put a price on that are
very valuable things that you can end up losing.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Well, and probably most of us don't have a spare
three hundred or four hundred thousand dollars laying around just
for fun especially. You put all that out and then
the best case scenario is you win and that money
is gone.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
Yeah, it's gone. It's gone.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
You might get, like I said, a little bit of
the you might get a portion of the of the
bond back, but that's going to be after the trial,
and if the trials two years later, you know that
usually is going to go to other things like experts.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
And that's one.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Thing you know you don't want to chance on is
if you're going to trial and you're if you're faced
with possibly, you know, spending the rest of your life
in prison, you want to be able to get the
best experts you can. And a lot of times, like
I said, it's going to be more than one.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, all chips in on the table.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
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to see all the Personal Defense AMMO options. So, Mike,
of course you were a police officer when this shooting happened.
Your shooting happened, So those costs those were I guess
(28:14):
covered by like Fraternal Order of Police, right they handle that. Yeah,
because you did go to trial over that shooting.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Yeah, I was sued about two years right before the
statute of limitation ran out. Of course, they come and
file a suit and so it went to summary judgment and.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
It got kicked out at some re judgment.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
So I won the case, but it took about a
year and a half to get there. And you know,
at that time it probably would have been I would
I would guestimate that probably would have been about two
hundred thousand, two hundred and fifty thousand and on a
cop salary. To have to do that, it would have
been devastating. Luckily, I was a FOP member. You know,
they paid for everything, and that's where a lot of
(28:57):
the lessons came out of when we created CCW safe.
You know, years later, when I left law enforcement in
twenty eleven for good, you know, I called my step
brother Kyle Sweet, who is a trial attorney. He was
a police officer, and I said, hey, man, I need
(29:18):
something that is going.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
To cover me. You know, I don't have an FOP anymore.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
And he's like, yeah, I need something to And he
looked around and just said, man, there's there's really nothing
out there that's going to give us the comfort level
and do what we needed to do that we had
as police officers. And I think that's the biggest thing,
you know, the biggest difference between what we do and
everybody else. I fully believe that, you know, everybody in
(29:44):
the space is going to do what they say they're
going to do. They're going to have good they have,
They're going to do for their members what they're going
to what they say they're going to do. I fully
believe that we just do things a lot different. It's
a base, it all kind of goes back to that shooting.
You know Gary Eastridge, who was our Critical Response team
leader for years. You know, he was the homicide detective
(30:07):
who actually interviewed me.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
On my shooting.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
And being able understanding what comes next, understanding the legal
process from the law enforcement side, I think is huge,
and being able to manage you know that first the response.
The time from when the incident happens to the time
(30:31):
when you're charged is you know, it's like the forty
eight hours, it's like the most important time. And to
be able to have a critical response team on the
ground next to you, people who understand attorneys, people like
Don West.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Why would you talk about this because the Critical Response
team and you guys really explained it to me, and
it seems different than what some other folks are doing.
You're talking about people that are on your team who
have experienced legal or in.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
The justice system or investigators or.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Whatever, and they actually show up, like wherever this person
is in the country.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Is that how it works?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, wherever they are, Like, you know, within twelve to
twenty four hours, we have somebody on the ground. I
know we had a case in Las Vegas on Thanksgiving Day,
and the next morning we had somebody on the ground.
We had an investigator, and we had Don West on
the ground in Vegas. They were able to secure an attorney,
(31:33):
and you know, just so happened that the attorney.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
That we had already had you know a.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Good professional relationship with the homicide detector who drew that casey,
so we were able to you know, work for our
member and you know, nothing ever was done. They saw
that it was in self defense, and you know, we
got that done. And actually, what's kind of funny is
in that case, so that had three different memberships. He
(32:02):
had us and he had two others. He was paying
for three memberships.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
I guess we were the second call.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
He called one of the others first, and then he
called us, and then he called the other one. And
we were on the ground Friday, because it was third
It was on Thanksgiving Day that it happened. We were
on the ground Friday, and you know, I don't think
he got even a return call from the others until Monday.
And you know, one told him to just claim it
(32:32):
on his home homeowner's insurance, and he was like, it
didn't even happen.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
In my house. It happened in my daughter's house.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
And the other one, you know, was like, hey, we'll
get you an attorney, but by that time it had
already been done.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
So that first forty eight hours is just crucial.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
In getting you know, you hear the term let's get
the right people on the bus. Getting the right people
on the bus and getting them there to do their job.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
It's critical in the charging stage.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, And like, I'm not a guy who understand I
don't have a full understand the legal system, but I
guess there is that possible opportunity that you could if
you do the right things in that first window of time,
that you don't even get.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Charged with a crime.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Right, it's handled the right way, It's handled the right way,
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And so that's what I'm saying, not going to trial
over because there is never was a trial, because then
the proper evidence is there and you have proper legal
representation and the DA or whoever says yeah, okay, yeah,
it's this is a completely good self defense shooting.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, they have to be led, you know, down the
path of showing what happened, and you have to have
the right people there to do that.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yeah, they need help.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, I mean I remember I had, you know, some
friends who've worked in you know, his assistant DA's or
prosecutors or defenders or whatever, and a lot of those
folks they're not used to dealing with innocent people. Yeah,
I mean there's a little bit of a bias there, Like, yeah,
I deal with criminals all day long, and it's maybe
(34:11):
a little mental adjustment for them to go, No, you
understand this is a good guy, Yeah, who defended himself
in the right way.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Well, that's a great point.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And Chris Cunningham, who is one of our newer she's
a homicide detective. She's been in law enforcement for over
thirty years. She was a homicide detective for most of
that time. She's amazing. She made a point to me
when she came on and she was saying that, you know,
all her years in law enforcement and working homicides as
(34:41):
a homicide detective, she has a lane she has to
stay in and she stays in that lane professionally, that's
her job and that's the lane she stays in. And
she said when she first got hired, she went to
a call and she was like, she said, I knew immediately,
like I'm going to do this because she realized, Wow,
(35:01):
now I don't have to stay in this lane.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
I can actually help this person.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
You know that's been because they're about to get steamrolled
with our justices.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Yeah, which is just that's it's just is it is
what it is.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
You don't know what you're getting into.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
No, and all the jurisdictions are different, and you know,
you have different key people in different roles all over
and you know she made that comment of being able
to like come out of that lane, I mean, and
it was really And when you have you know, a
homicide detective or investigator investigating that case, he's got to
stay within his lane, and he's there for one thing.
(35:37):
He's there to investigate that see if there's a crime
and they need you know, help with that through you know,
your attorney and so forth, to be able to work
with them to show them an investigator if need to
show them, you know, what happened during that time, because
a lot of times they don't. We had one case
where we in one case, there was there was some
(36:00):
incidents that happened, and they didn't believe that there were
three incidents that happened. They didn't believe that the second
one happened because the video that they had, they had
two locations and the guy, you know, we had a
member attacked, he retreated, went to another location, attacked again,
went to another location with a second attack. The video
(36:22):
system from that place it didn't show anything happening.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
What it took no proof.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
It took our investigator that we hired to show that
the time stamps were off.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
And then when they lined up the time stamps there.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
It was yes, this could have happened because yeah, and then.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
They were like, oh, okay, it did happen. It was
just the time stamp was off. We were looking at
the wrong time. Wow, you know, And so just little
things like that. I mean, they need to you know,
you want the best version. That's why we say don't
talk to the police, you know when you're directly after
you know, be polite.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Hey, I want to help you best can.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
But I'm not in a frame of mind to do
that because they need the best information and we want
to help our members give the best information.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
I like kind of educating people more about this because
I think that people will have this like gunfight in
their head of like I'm going to do this and
then the cops are going to show up and they're
gonna give me a high five, and you know, thanks
for taking this gumbag off the streets.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
And man, it's not that way.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Most of I mean, it may happen like that sometimes, but.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
It's it's not that easy. Yeah, And it's never that
cut and dry. You know, there's always going to be
you get ten different people looking at one scenario, you're going.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
To get six different things that happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Well, I mean I'm glad that you guys are offering
this service as something that people. I mean, let's be honest,
if you carry a gun on I guess at all
you need to have some type of coverage.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
So you got to look into it.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Seems like you guys are doing it in a little
bit different You have shown way of doing it, which
is kind of cool and uh good to educate people
on it.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
Yeah, thanks Mike, all right, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
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