October 21, 2024 • 51 mins
It's time to feel our feelings friends. This episode is a special one... all about grief. First, Morgan brought on psychotherapist Paige to share how grief can present itself as well as how we can best manage it. Also, we discussed the different variations of grief and how EMDR can be helpful in grief and other traumatic life events. Then, Judah from Judah and The Lion stops by to talk about their album The Process which breaks down the five stages of grief in music form. Judah shares the life experiences he endured to create such a vulnerable album and the moment that made him decide to be vulnerable and share those moments with his fans.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Julesman.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hi, everybody, another special episode this week dedicated to the
topic of grief. I saw several messages from you all
who wanted me to explore this topic for a multitude
of reasons. So first, I'm bringing on Paige, who is
a psychotherapist, to get her educational expertise on grief. She
also specializes in E M d R, which is a
technique that may be able to help some people in
(00:40):
different ways than traditional therapy does. Then Judah from Judah
and the Line is on to talk about their new album,
which breaks down the process of grief through music. So
instead of me sitting here talking about it, let's get
into it right now with Page, who is a psychotherapist.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Page, how are you doing well?
Speaker 4 (01:05):
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
It's good to meet you virtually, and I'm really excited
to talk with you.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
Really.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
The topic we're focusing on today is grief because grief
is such a universal human experience, and it's one that
I think we kind of like to feel like we
don't experience sometimes because it's easier to believe that it
doesn't happen. But I want to talk about grief in
(01:33):
this sense, like, what are some ways that if somebody's
dealing with grief, that we can make it a little
bit easier on ourselves because we are going to experience it,
especially more as we get through life and we get
older and things start to happen.
Speaker 6 (01:47):
It's such a good question, and I love that you're
naming the fact that we might have this tendency to
want to avoid it, or if someone else might be
struggling with grief, it can be almost easier to want
to avoid that because it's.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Just a really scary thing.
Speaker 6 (02:04):
But yeah, it will happen to all of us in
some way, whether it's losing a loved one, whether it's
health changes, whether it's a friendship changing or a separation.
I mean, it can show up in so many different ways.
So some ways to make it easier or help somebody
(02:26):
process through it, I often, you know, as a therapist,
like I'll typically start with education around common grief reactions
as well as just how the process can look like.
And that can just be really like normalizing for folks.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
The common ways that it can show up. I like
to go hard very quickly, by the way, I just
get like ride into the topics, because that's what everybody
loves to hear about. But let's break it down a
little bit. What are the common ways that it shows up?
Even though it's an emotional experience, it can show up
and manifest in your body in so many different ways.
And I think if we can recognize that this something
(03:07):
that we may be dealing with is grief versus oh,
that's not what that is kind of thing, then maybe
we don't push it as away as much totally.
Speaker 6 (03:16):
I mean, I think a big link to grief is anger.
So if you're angry about something, you can track it
back and see like, is their loss or is.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Their grief showing up as well?
Speaker 6 (03:28):
And sometimes anger can be an easier reaction to have
than grief because grief can be so so deep and isolating.
Other ways it might show up. I think, you know,
things can manifest physically a lot, so people might notice,
you know, grief in their chest or in their stomach.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
It might show up as isolating, you know, from loved ones.
Speaker 6 (03:55):
Depending on the person, it can show up in so
many interesting ways, right.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yes, Yeah, And you also mentioned to I think we're
a little stingy with grief.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Some people are when they believe that grief.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Is only associated with death and I would love for
you to expand on that some more For some people
who may think this way, like you can't have.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Grief in other situations.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Of your life, whether it be the loss of a relationship,
the loss of a pet, the loss of a career change,
or an experience in your life.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
I think we.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Often just associate grief with death. I personally don't feel
that way, but I would just love a perspective of
someone who is in a professional field to be like,
this is real and it is possible to experience grief
on multiple levels, Like what can that kind of be
like from your perspective?
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I end up pointing it out.
Speaker 6 (04:48):
I feel like kind of a grief detective in some
sessions with folks because I'm like, oh, I think what's
coming up there is actually grief, and then naming that
can be helpful. But I think I noticed it a
lot for folks going through, you know, major life transition,
Like maybe they are graduating college and moving to a
new city and there's grief of kind of losing the
(05:10):
close knit friendships that they've had. Maybe it's somebody who
has gone through a medical condition and they're grieving the
abilities that they had before that Yeah, so many different ways,
so many sneaky ways that grief can show up in
our life. Even just somebody entering into retirement, like that
(05:34):
can be a very happy time or what they think,
you know, they should be celebrating, they should be so excited,
But then there can be loss in identity and just
trying to like reconfigure who they are in this next phase.
So it can also be associated with happy things as well.
(05:54):
And then when that happens, we can tend to minimize
the grief and not lean in and process it and
really understand it.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And when somebody minimizes the grief or chooses not to
process grief, what can that do to somebody's life if
they choose to ignore it.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Oh, the longer we ignore it, just it doesn't go away.
Speaker 6 (06:17):
It's just it can turn into complex or complicated grief
down the road.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
So if I encourage somebody, if they.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
Have had a big loss, you know, to try to
process it as soon as possible, because the longer, the
longer you go, I mean, the more complicated it can get.
To try to sift through all of it. When it's fresher,
I think, then you're allowing yourself to process it. More naturally,
so going to individual therapy, going to a grief group
(06:50):
can really be a lovely thing because then you're like,
oh wow, I feel kind of crazy, but now I
realize that I'm not alone in this, and all of
these feelings and and experiences and things that I might
do now are actually very normal. And so just having
that connection to others during that time when it is
really fresh can be next to.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And we often talk about too when it comes to grief,
this timeline idea. Everybody believes there could be a timeline.
Some people experience it quicker, some it last years.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Is there a timeline for grief?
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Yeah, I think you already know.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
I do, but you.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Know, listen, I sometimes I have to really ask the
simple questions just to make people have better experiences with
understanding these things.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
So yeah, break it down for us.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
No, I like it. I like the question.
Speaker 6 (07:39):
Yeah, it's not linear, there is no timeline, and that
I think is like part of normalizing this process, and
like that it is going to you know, everyone's going
to react differently based on the relationship to the loved
one that they lost, based on environmental factors like potential
secondary losses that they could be experiencing with this one.
(08:03):
So that might be you know, if the person that
they lost was like the bread winner, or they did
the or they took care of the bills, or they
did a lot of child's care. If it's a spouse,
then you're kind of also adjusting to all of those
other secondary losses that are happening. So it's not linear,
and it really can just ebb and flow. There's this
(08:27):
this metaphor then I'm going to try not to butcher,
but it's like if you imagine grief is like a
ball in this box, and it's a big ball at first. Well,
and in that box there's like a button that is
this trigger response or this like emotional kind of grief response.
And so when the grief is so fresh, the ball
is big and it's going to hit that button way
(08:51):
more often. And then as you process the grief, the
ball gets smaller and smaller, and so it's less likely
to hit that button. But when it does happened to
hit that button, the response is still going to feel intent,
like as intent says before. So it's like the idea
that it can shift and change over time, but it
(09:12):
is not linear and it will never go away. Like,
your grief will always be there, especially you know if
you had this deep love for that person.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Gosh, yeah, that's a good analogy.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
I like the yarn button.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
I guess so fun.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Now to speaking of processing your grief, if somebody were
to come to you and they recognize like, hey, I
have grief. I don't even know where to start. How
do I start to process this? Is there some exercises
or maybe something that immediately you're like, this could probably
start to ease that process. Is there anything that transcends
(09:51):
for everybody as an exercise to start using. If they're
listening to this and they're like, yes, I have grief.
I don't know what to do, and I don't know
where to start.
Speaker 6 (09:58):
Oh my gosh, I have so many ideas, so I'll
give a few. So I mean, first of all, in session,
it's just like dedicating time to talk about the loved
one that they lost, or maybe it wasn't a loved one,
maybe it was someone that they lost that they had
a complicated relationship with. Just having that space for them
to talk to somebody is going to make a big difference.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
So there is.
Speaker 6 (10:22):
That just for them to be able to talk about
their person staying connected with other people that knew that
person as well, to continue to share stories and honor
them and be able to really on different emotions that
might be coming up. That can be a lovely way
to continue to process. For my folks who like to
(10:44):
stuff things down. I encourage people to dedicate like maybe
fifteen minutes per day to just feel the feelings of grief.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
So set a timer.
Speaker 6 (10:56):
You know, this might not work for everybody, but it
can be a way to set aside that time and
you might like listen to music that reminds you of
that person, you might look at pictures to just really
let yourself process through it, and then once the fifteen
minutes is up, then you kind of, you know, can
transition back into your day.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I'm thinking of one of those timers that's in the
movies where you like, crank it and you're like, oh no,
the things you're like, okay, time's up, I'm picturing right now.
Speaker 6 (11:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Yeah, So it can.
Speaker 6 (11:27):
It can be a little abrupt, you know, so maybe
it works, maybe not, But I.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Feel like it's a great way if you're if you're
a planner and you're someone who's like I have a
whole life to live and I can't focus on this.
It's forcing you to focus on it. And it's really
important to feel those feelings, even when you are a
busy human being and you've chose to kind of set
it aside.
Speaker 6 (11:46):
Yeah, and as like a therapist, it's I feeling your
feelings is like the key to help manage anxiety and
stress and grief, but it is a tough skill to
really hone it on in practice.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Do you feel like this is totally a little offshoot,
but do you feel like feeling your feelings is also
another universal human experience that we are all trying to
figure out how to navigate.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Yeah, yeah, probably. Yeah, it's scary because it's like what
if I lose control? What if after.
Speaker 6 (12:20):
These fifteen minutes I can't come out of it? And
so that that is a fear that comes up. And
I will say, the more you practice it, the more
control you know you'll have kind of within your day
to day like you'll be able to manage manage your
emotions even more when you let yourself have them.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yes, just like with anything, you have to start somewhere,
and grief is no different. Unfortunately, Yes, now you do
have some expertise in emd R. Can you explain what
that is for anybody who may not know.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Yeah, yeah, it's a mouthful. And a lot of people
say EDMR the.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Natural way because EDM music and you just want to
add R onto it.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
Yeah, and I'm like sure, so I movement desensitization and
reprocessing and what it is. It was originally developed for PTSD,
but it can also be very effective for grief and anxiety,
substance abuse, So all these different things that it can
that it can help.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
And what it.
Speaker 6 (13:26):
Does is it takes these distressing events in our life
and we use eye movements or bilateral tapping, some type
of bilateral stimulation to help file those distressing events away
in a more adaptive way. So when we go through
(13:46):
something really distressing or traumatic, our brain and our body,
like our nervous systems, stores it maladaptively, and when we
have triggers in our present day, it can bring up
those past feelings as if it's happening all over again.
And so with the DR we can put the past
(14:09):
in the past and not feel so activated or so
emotionally charged when we face things that could bring up
those past events.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Wow, it's physical therapy.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
But for the brain.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
It is fascinating. Yeah, clients are like, this is witchcraft,
this is voodoo.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
What are you?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
How many sessions do you feel like?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I know that everybody's different, more of an average here, Like,
how many sessions do you feel like it takes somebody
to one start to feel the experience of it and
to kind of really see the results of it.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
Yeah, I mean I think like a like a good
average if I were to pick a number, would be
like maybe six sessions, I will say, just to be
able to feel the effects of it, you know, get
yourself comfortable with the process. I would say like six
kind of regular fifty minute sessions could be good to start.
It is recommended to do EMDR in like ninety minute
(15:14):
sessions or just longer sessions. It's nice to be able
to once we're in the nervous system, to be able
to kind of keep that momentum going. So personally, I
love working in longer sessions that can be like four
hours in a day or it might be three days
(15:34):
in a row, But it will depend on the person
and what they can tolerate, and like what methods of
coping they already have in place, and the work that
they've already done kind of leading up to it.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
So do you feel like EMDR is something that you
use as an exercise after you've tried other things, or
is it something that if you know, you have this
kind of really big life event that happened that's holding
you kind of in a stuck pattern, is that kind
of when you go at it or is it like
(16:10):
last option? How do people because I'm so familiar with EMDR, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah, it can be any and all of that. So,
you know, I think the.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
Most the most basic method with EMDR is going to
be like, Okay, you had a traumatic You have one
traumatic event and like maybe it was like a car
accident or you witnessed, you know, somebody having a heart
attack or something something big. So you can absolutely use
EMDR with an event like that to help the person
(16:44):
get unstuck from it. But you could also use it
with little tea traumas or attachment wounds and just those
micro moments that could have happened throughout somebody's like childhood
or teen years that made them feel neglected or not good.
So there's different kind of needs that it can be
effective for.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So I'm hearing that I need to schedule an appointment
for this like asap.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
It's very relatable.
Speaker 6 (17:13):
I mean, so you can use it for like present
day triggers, like if you're just noticing like, oh gosh,
I'm getting really irritable with this person, or you know,
I'm so stressed at work, I am having such a
hard time with like presenting. You can use it for
like performance anxiety, So it can be like present day stuff,
(17:35):
it can be past trauma. You can even use it
for like procrastination, so it's a wide net.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. I have never heard of
this until I found you through looking for grief specific stuff,
but then I saw this on your profile and I
did some reading into it. But now, especially hearing you
talk about it, that feels like it can be so
beneficial to just so many different people, especially maybe some
(18:03):
that aren't super great at wanting to go to therapy.
Maybe this is a different version of that that can
help them through that. So that's so cool.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
It is cool also because you don't have to talk.
Speaker 6 (18:17):
Through everything, which can be nice for some. It can
be good if you've done a lot of therapy too,
and you're just like I haven't made the progress that
I really want to make. There's something there's some stuckness
or there's some barrier that I'm still like really wanting
to overcome, and so it can be great for that too.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Well, Paige, thank you so much for giving me your
expertise on grief and on this that I think is
going to be so valuable for a lot of people.
But I really just appreciate you taking time and coming on.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Yeah, this is fine. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I'm really excited right now to be joined by Judah Acres,
who you all may know from Judah and the Lion.
Speaker 7 (19:04):
Judah, how are you doing good? It's all cozy here.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Like, yeah, it's very cozy vibes, and.
Speaker 7 (19:09):
Your dog in my lap. We talked about.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
Very deep things.
Speaker 7 (19:13):
About telling what I'll say with a dog in my lap.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
I have your therapy already ready for you. So I've
been a fan of you guys, gosh for years.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I mean, you guys have multiple albums at this point,
but I really think that your latest album, The Process,
is one of my favorite yet.
Speaker 7 (19:29):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
And I feel like that's just because of how.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Vulnerable and deep it is, and I would so love
to know, like the life events that led you to
put out an album like that, if you're willing to.
Speaker 7 (19:42):
Talk about them, Yeah, thank you. That's super sweet.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
The process, it's kind of one of those funny things
where me and Brian, my bandmate, we had this idea
to write a record about the process of grief. We
chose the Koubla Rossis Stages and this was about I
guess four or five year yars ago. I had written
a record called Pep Talks that was a lot about
just kind of growing up as a southern dude and
(20:08):
having great parents, amazing parents, and then kind of watching
their life kind of really take a turn and kind
of implode in front of me. And the record is
a whole lot about just kind of like their divorce
and what it was like as a twenty four or
five year old, you know dude kind of going through
that because a lot of people go through divorce before
(20:30):
they're even born or like where their parents or you know,
as an adolescent or a teenager or whatever. And so anyways,
so we've always kind of written like from a personal
standpoint of like what we're going through in life. And
then after a couple really kind of hard deaths in
my family that could be really interesting to kind of
(20:52):
rite through these Kuble Rossi's stages of grief, which is denial, anger, bargaining, depression,
and then acceptance. And so as we were kind of
getting done with our last cycle, getting out of the pandemic,
we were like, I think this is time to do
it because I had just gone through really hard divorce
(21:12):
and so outside of like loss, losing my aunt and
uncle and grandpa and you know, all of this kind
of other stuff and my parents kind of struggling at
the time, Like this is like, this is the time
to write about the process of grief because I transparently
did not want to write about my divorce for a
(21:33):
lot of reasons. I feel like the world didn't need
another divorce record. You know, there's a lot of heartbreak
records out there.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, but you were also going through multiple different versions
of grief. You were going through like the loss of
life and grief and also the loss of a future
that you had believed in, and so to go through
writing an album that was going to be multiple different
versions of grief is not common. Also because we are
so closely associated with one version of grief, which is
(22:03):
the loss of somebody, but the other grief where you
have to mourn somebody that's still alive, we don't like
to talk about that.
Speaker 7 (22:10):
No, And I definitely was not.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I told Brian, I was just like, man, I just
when I don't really want to release these songs that
I'm writing because they're deeply personal, and now it's like
I'm not writing about my parents divorce and writing about
my own, which you know, when you get married, you
don't ever expect to get divorced, and that comes with
like a lot of shame and guilt and personal like
(22:35):
defeats that you would.
Speaker 7 (22:36):
Have never kind of imagined.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
But then writing the record and having all these other
kind of versions of grief of losing very close ones
to suicide and other mental health issues and really learning
to kind of, I guess, cope in healthier ways than
I was coping. The records a lot about like you know,
the nights that I was over dreaming and kind of
(23:02):
coping in ways that was not healthy for myself and
wanting people to kind of learn from those mistakes. And yeah,
I ended up being just kind of this like wild,
like oh my God, Like I was in denial so
harshly here whether it be with my mom. My mom's
like version of kind of running away from just like
(23:25):
what she was doing with with alcohol, like denial in
that like, oh my gosh, my marriage is in shambles
and I can't even really admit that to myself or
my friends or whoever. And so getting to kind of
go through these stages and be like, man, that was
like two years ago, like I was totally in denial
here and already like it's the record's only been out
(23:48):
for a couple of months, but some of the stories
are are really wild and how people can kind of relate,
whether it be through heartbreak.
Speaker 7 (23:55):
Er divorce, or.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Loss in their their family or friends or whatever. And
then also just like we never imagine like we had someone,
we've had quite a few people actually now come up
to us and be like I just got diagnosed with YadA, YadA, YadA,
and the process has kind of helped me accept this
(24:18):
diagnosis or accept this harsh thing that you know, and
that really just puts it all into perspective of life,
like you just never really know what other people are
going through.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, And I do want to talk about your fans
at some point, but I want to go back to
a piece of this where you had mentioned how you
had found other different coping skills to deal with something.
So at what point for you did you have like
that turning point where you're like, Okay, I didn't want
to deal with this before, but now I can write
about it and I'm going to like sure this with people,
like kind of walk me through that process for you
(24:53):
of like coming to terms with what was happening and
then being like, oh, I'm going to share it with
the whole world.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, you know, Yeah, it's scary. I mean honestly, it's
just like it's really scary, you know, to do that.
I say that there's kind of three steps for records.
For me, it's like one writing it, which is really healing.
It's really healing for all of us to creatively get
out whatever you're needing to get out, whether you're a
(25:20):
journaler or like an actual painter or a poet, regardless
if you're you feel like a quote unquote creative, Like
it's good to get all that out. So that the
first part is like it's very healing. So when me
and Brian were finally like ready to do it was
when we brought back the stages and we were like, oh,
we can actually write about this in a way that's
(25:40):
different than another heartbreak record that you know, we all
know and love. But then the second part is releasing it.
And the releasing part of it is really hard because
now you're like, oh, you know, insert curse word, Like,
now everybody's going to have like an open like my journal,
(26:01):
my daily journal, and all my issues and problems and
victories and lows or whatever, they're going to be there
for people to look.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
At, inspect and decide how they feel.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, which is really hard, and it usually ends up
with me in the back of the tour bus crying
for a few hours and just kind of warning that.
And then the third part, which is the most magical part,
is singing these songs live with people in that transfer
of energy, which is the reason why we all love
music in general, is just to have that love kind
(26:37):
of back to you and somehow you're someone's connecting. And
so I don't know that there was necessarily like a
turning point, but it was.
Speaker 7 (26:46):
It was.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
There was a moment when I was sitting with my
uh he's my best friend now at the time, was
like my therapist and I was just like, man, I
really am struggling here. I feel like I'm kind of
in this depression and this was kind of you know,
my heartbreak and post all this stuff, and I just like,
I feel like I'm doing all these things and I
(27:07):
preach like health and mental health, and like, you know,
I feel like a lot of people and for whatever reason,
since the music has hit them in some way, like
I represent this thing that is like pushing mental health
and you know, all this stuff, but I'm not mentally healthy.
Speaker 7 (27:27):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And I was like, I'm over drinking and I'm doing
all this stuff, and he just looked at me and
he goes, well, of course you're ever drinking. And I
was like what and he was like, yeah, like you're
you've been being up Like it's okay. I wish you
would just be gentle with yourself. And I was like,
you don't have to be anyone's hero.
Speaker 8 (27:49):
And I was like, oh, no, James, thanks for that
staffed to the chest yeah, and I just like started weeping,
and you know, it just ended up being like, oh,
my role as a creative or an artist is to
be honest and to shed peel back and to dig
deep and to find those places in me that I
(28:11):
feel like are unlovable and let those places.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Come up, and whether it be through confession or you
know whatever, our music is trying to be honest and
not hold back any punches, but also point people to
like hope and that there's beauty on the other side
of it, regardless of the way that you're feeling at
the time. So I think that turning point for me
was like, even though I don't really want to write
(28:37):
about it, there's maybe a lot of people that could relate.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
You know, that's really powerful.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
As you were talking about that, and you wrote this
album as the Stages of grief, but you just mentioned
that you have your own stages of healing that you
do all the time, and I think that's also really
powerful that you recognize your own healing version. So it's
like that was the process for everybody else, but this
was yours. I had mentioned something there too, of that
(29:01):
hardness of going through those feelings. Do you feel like
growing up? And you know, we talk a lot about
women in society and what the standards were held to,
but also for men expressing their emotions and being able
to say like I'm not okay. Most people tell you like,
you're fine, just deal with it.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
You're a guy.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Did you feel like there was that level of that
for you and that played a role to like finally
be like, Okay.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Let me put this out here in the world.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
But everybody's been telling me, don't do this, don't put
your feelings out there.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Did you ever have that experience?
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Well, that's what's kind of funny maybe ironic about me.
Is I am that classic jock stereotype where you know,
I don't know if it was necessarily imposed on me
as like an expectation. Because so what's funny about me,
Brian and I is both our moms or therapists.
Speaker 7 (29:52):
Oh, I love that, your counselors.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
So it's like, of course we're kind of in this
like writing music about mental.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
Health and stuff, very in touch with your feelings.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah, oh yeah. And so I would say in my
house it was kind of both. Like my mom was
very like open and I mean her degree was in
child development, so like she was she wanted the emotions
to live. And then then my dad, you know who's
my I'm very close with both my parents at the moment,
(30:20):
and my dad was like a best friend, but you know,
very hard on me as a kid the coach, and
so there was both of like I don't know if
that it was necessarily imposed on me, but I did
just want to be the best at sports. I wanted
to not be the one that was like highly emotional
and all this stuff. And so I think as I
(30:40):
grew out of the teenage version of myself and found
myself in music, music became this outlet for me that
I feel very blessed to have.
Speaker 7 (30:49):
But in a lot of ways, and.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Especially during you know, this heartbreak, I didn't tell anyone
that I was suffering for years. I mean it took
it took a couple of years to even like I call.
There's a song called Sis on the record that's literally
about this breakdown moment of being like, I, this is
what's happening in my life and I just need to
(31:11):
tell you.
Speaker 7 (31:12):
And I'm really ashamed of it.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
And I don't really even know how it got this bad,
or you know, whatever the conversation was. So I do
think that naturally, at least for me as a dude,
I do have a propensity to hold things in and
bottle it, surprisingly enough, even with my music being as
(31:35):
vulnerable as it is, in my personal life, it can
be really difficult, and I think there's like, you know,
we're dudes, we want to kind of have it all together.
We want to be okay, you know, like that's our desire.
But at the end of the day, but the truth
is is that you know, everybody behind their eyelids are
(31:57):
going through something again that we don't know about, and
then maybe they don't even know about. I heard in
one of your podcasts you're talking about the.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
The role of like.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
The role that our childhood plays into our adult life.
And I think that a lot of times, like men
don't want to go there and face all that because
it's like, I'm fine, I'm not going to go dig
up these wells and you know, don't go chasing waterfalls,
you know, don't don't go finding, but not.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
Pull the troll out from another flavor down there what happened.
Speaker 7 (32:29):
Yeah, I'm fine, Like, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
And I hope as a dude that's that's trying to
write honestly and bear kind of all all emotions, that
it is an encouragement to men out there that it's
okay to be raw, to be sad, to be emotional,
because that's where the good stuff lies as well.
Speaker 5 (32:49):
Yeah, and I love.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
To hear from guys who feel like they can do
that because I want other guys to know it's okay.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
To do that.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
That's a really big piece of why I wanted to
have you on because I think it's cool your story
and how you've been able to do what you do.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
There's another thing that you had mentioned and brought up.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
I also have lost a friend to suicide, which was
a really, really hard time, and suicide is also really
different trigger of grief than we also don't really like
to talk about because that's just one that we like
to be like, Okay, I don't want to ever think
about this again because this is hard and it doesn't
(33:26):
make any sense and it's never going to make sense.
Do you have any experiences that you went through when
that was learning for you that other people who might
experience it, Because we are in such an interesting place
with mental health that people are really struggling, and unfortunately
suicide is common.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
We don't want it to be, but it is.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
And if people are losing people to that, I want
them to maybe hear from somebody who's lost to that,
and like, what your experiences is with that or just
anything you can provide in that direction.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, I think again it's the more like I live life.
It's like the common thread throughout is a lot of
times we just don't know what's going on in any
given That's why I love music so much. That's why
I mean, even like we've known each other for years now,
(34:21):
but there's things in your life that you're going through
that I will never understand, even though we're having an
amazing conversation. And I think when you lose someone to suicide,
it's like, at least for me, like the first the
first time that I did, it was very confusing to
me on what I did wrong? Could I have made
(34:43):
that call or could I have and I don't want
to say that like making it about myself. It was
just more like I never went through the struggle of
like blaming myself necessarily. But I know that's something that
a lot of people deal with, especially if it's your
best friend or a close friend or.
Speaker 7 (35:01):
You know, in my case it was like close relatives.
You know.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I think that there comes this kind of like, you know,
not to put point back to the record, but this
kind of bargaining of like, man, why did they get
that low, or was this decision like selfish you know,
from them? Or could they help it? Could I have
done anything more? And I think I think all those
(35:28):
questions are really valid. I think that's what people don't
really want to admit, is that the harshness of suicide
is really harsh, and the odds are as like that
person was just going through something so hard and real
that brought them to that moment. And I kind of
(35:49):
kept stop saying they committed suicide. I've started saying they
lost their life to suicide, kind of like addiction or
anything like that, where it's like it's so misunderstood and
so unexplained, like neurologically it's.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
A mental health disorder disease, like like it is you
are losing your life to that because it was uncontr
that was something that was neurologically the way that you
viewed the world and we couldn't change that. But there
was so much in there that it's important. I really
hope that was helpful for somebody out there. I thank
you for talking about that, because I also know that's
(36:27):
really hard to like just sit here and be like, yeah,
I went through this, and let me say it There
is a song on your Guys' record that I really loved,
Floating in the Night.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
It's right after the anger stage.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
It's in the anger stage, and much like you were
talking of, you have all these questions, I think everything
associated with grief. You always have this stage where there's
so many questions, what did I do?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
What could I change what?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Because hindsight becomes twenty twenty once you're.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
Out of something.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
No matter what the grief is, right, there's always this
like you're looking back at I could have done that,
or I could have done this. In that anchor stage
is so hard. I feel like a lot of people
and like in my personal experience, you ruminate in spiral
in that phase because you're just constantly asking questions a
million times over and you're never going to get an answer,
Like to ask these open questions where it's like there's
(37:17):
never going to be a response and you just have to.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
Live with that.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, Like that's the ruminating phase. That's where it happens.
And I love that song because it really is like
you're just floating and there's nothing you can do about it.
You have to just exist out in the universe totally.
So I just I really love what you guys have
done with all of that. And I also want to
talk about your fans too. You had mentioned how like
some of them have come up, like what has that
(37:41):
experience been like for you now putting something so vulnerable
out and people are really connecting with it.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
It's the reason why we make music is to hear
the stories and to to really feel like there's like
purpose in it, you know. I feel like Brian and
I we've always tried to keep the core reason why
we make music the same thing. And of course we're humans,
and so that gets blurred by well, we want to
(38:07):
be like selling out stadiums like so and so, or
we want to be how we want to have another
hit or whatever it may be.
Speaker 7 (38:15):
But at the core of like, the.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Reason why we make music is to make people feel
less hopefully make people feel less alone. So coming out
with this record one is the most terrifying record that
we've ever released for a lot of reasons. But I
think we're surprised and honored that other people's stories, whether
it be about like what we were talking about, like
(38:36):
losing a friend or a best friend, or a father
or a mother, or going through their own divorce and
not really understanding why or getting like we had someone
that had like a stage four cancer diagnosis, and then
understanding we had a man come up with his family.
I don't want to get emotional, but it was just like,
this might be my last show.
Speaker 7 (38:58):
It's busted.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
I'm like getting light six wants to live in the
processes kind of, and so those moments are just kind
of like I want to feel that and to be there,
and that moment, you know, when you're looking down at
his family or at him and you're singing these songs,
all everything else kind of disappears and you're like, I
(39:21):
don't know why these stories like really connected to that
specific story and another. But it really makes me believe
in the magic of music and the reason why we
all love music and going to shows or whatever it
may be is having these artists that I'm not speaking
about me, but the artists that I love, that you
(39:44):
go to the shows and there's just kind of this
easy magic of love that is kind of coming through
the speakers and then ask back to them and yeah,
I don't know, it's just like that I'm kind of
maybe going down some rabbit.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Trails here, but you can keep going this is great.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yeah, well it's just amazing, and I think it's just
yeah it to have strangers or people that are strangers
coming and then relating that to their story in any way,
it's just kind of a miracle and of a sense.
And then there's just just this unspoken thing I think
with humans and this transfer of love that happens when
(40:26):
the stories connect.
Speaker 7 (40:27):
So that's a really really big honor for us.
Speaker 5 (40:30):
Oh that's a that's a really good one.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And I love that you guys are getting to experience,
Like I guess the fruits of your labor is a
way to put it, but like I think being able
to put something out so vulnerable and just like you said,
it was terrifying to do.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
But then on the other side, you're seeing.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
Okay, this was worth it.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
All of this was worth it.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Even if it's just for that one guy who came
up and he's going through that in that moment. What's
for you, Like you look at this entire experience over.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
The course of your life so far are in this.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Putting together this album, what's been like your biggest lesson takeaway?
Like you're talking about how your fans are taking away
things from this record, But for you from the start,
from when all of these things were happening, to the
things that you put yourself through, to then coming out
the other side, to then creating the record, Like what
do you feel like has been your biggest takeaway from
that whole entire process, not you know, no pun intended.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, that's such a good question. I I just learned
so much in the last few years. So a lot
of it going back to your question about you know,
bottling stuff as a as a man. So I had
chronic back pain during my divorce. Couldn't really figure out
what was going on. It's like my luwer back like
(41:46):
like kind of took me out of like running and
all these things that I love, which exercise, you know,
if you are depressed, I think is like one of
the most important things that you can do. But it's
funny how your body is like, well you're set or
you're angry, and you're not dealing with it. And so
I went to this like doctor or like you're just stress.
(42:07):
It was like okay, but I cannot get rid of
this back being like one of the chiropractor, you know,
doing all of this stuff in this one week, I
just got so angry at everything. I mean, I was
yelling at everyone, and if you know me, that's not
my default. My default is more kind of soft, or
(42:30):
I like to say that it's more kind of soft
and gentle.
Speaker 7 (42:33):
Maybe not on the pick a ball court.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
But but I think, I think what I've learned, So
I after that week when I just got angry and
exploded and had to apologize to a lot of friends.
Speaker 7 (42:46):
After it, my back pain went away.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
And so there's this this concept of your body kind
of holding these emotions, that.
Speaker 5 (42:54):
Your body keeps the score.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yes, of course, and it's it's so true. But the
other side of that is your body, the body knows
the way. And so through that, I guess what I've
learned most about the process and even going through these
kind of stages, these five stages, is I think as
an athlete or as maybe as a man, maybe you
(43:18):
relate to this as a woman as well, but that
I think I was just looking for a step to
step program to like heal my broken heart, and so
I would do anything. I mean, I was going to acupuncture,
I was going to I was going to therapy, like
probably too much.
Speaker 7 (43:37):
You know.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
It was just kind of like I'm a fixer. I'm
going to fix this, like I'm going to do whatever
the control of this. And and the truth is is
there's no rollbook too, to going through the divorce. There's
no rollbook to getting a terrible diagnosis, there's no rollbook
to you know, losing someone in any way, whether it
(43:58):
be a sudden death or suicide or cancer, whatever it
may be. There's no rule book to it. And I
think what I've learned the most is like being able
to hold all those places in you that are angry
at it, that are in denial with whatever you're going through.
Maybe you are an alcoholic, you're an addict, and you
(44:21):
are in denial or holding this like wrestle or what
I call the bargaining, which is kind of this personal
inventory of like.
Speaker 7 (44:31):
Where am I at this? Like why am I mad
at God? You know, like why you know?
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Questioning and then holding the sadness or the depression of
all of it.
Speaker 7 (44:41):
It's truly just.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Like learning to love the sides of you that you
don't love and learning that those need this space to
come up. And when anger comes out, not to be
like too hippie, but like asking the anger, like what's
up like, I'm not going to push you down anymore
war because if I do, I back hurt.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
I'm going to feel that I'm just gonna deal with this.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
And har But it's learning to like treat all those
spaces in yourself like a friend. And for other people,
anger might look like frustration or resentment or jealousy or whatever,
but asking like oh why am I jealous of this person?
Speaker 7 (45:18):
Or why am.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
I I'm gonna let myself feel this sadness and ask
it questions like why are you sad? Because a lot
of times, like we are, it's probably justified while you're sad.
This is a hard life, I mean, justified while you're
angry and not understanding you know. So I think all
(45:40):
that to say is that the process is it's kind
of like almost like not a process. It's like it's
like learning to just to be able to hold all
of it at once.
Speaker 7 (45:50):
That's so hard, which sucks. It's almost it's pretty much impossible.
Speaker 5 (45:55):
Yeah, Well, because you.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Look at everybody's life and if you look at all
the things that you're having to juggle, we can't. It's
it's humanly impossible to juggle all the things that people juggle.
Every day and then on top of it to be
okay with like all.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Your emotions that you're experiencing. It's superhuman abilities.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
And yet we're still sitting here all like trying, just
trying to figure our way through.
Speaker 5 (46:17):
It's like it's like, what are we doing? Guys?
Speaker 1 (46:19):
It's fine, absolutely, I mean and like when, uh, I
forget who said this. We had so many amazing people
that knew way more about these stages than what we did.
But I think it might have been James who said
denial was actually your body's way of protecting itself. Like
it's this you're if you were to take on all
(46:40):
the emotions you felt like when you're when you went
through you know, I don't forget you said as a
friend or whoever it was that committed suicide, if you
were to take all those emotions that once you die,
because it's just too much. So your body has to
go through this version of like all right, I'm out.
I can't deal with this right now.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Well, because I mean, I grief and heartbreak whatever it
looks like, is the hardest.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Human emotion to experience the rest of them.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Kind of have this out right, Like you can be
happy and there's an hour.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
You can be angry and there's an out.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But like true, like heartbreak, you just have to deal
with it and like put it back together. You don't heal,
you don't like you heal in the process, but you
never are fully healed again. You're healed in a different way. Right, So,
like to pretend that heartbreak just doesn't of any kind
of fashion of losing an animal, of losing a friend
(47:35):
or experiencing a heartbreak like in a relationship, to pretend
that that doesn't hurt as.
Speaker 5 (47:39):
Bad as it does.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Like that's going to give you some problems because it's
such a big emotion.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah, and few it's it's kind of future tense too.
It's like a lot of times this isn't a book
that I was reading, I think, but it was heartbreak
or a loss is not necessarily of like what it was,
but the projection of what have been and all those
dreams that you had with this said person or a
dog or whoever, you know, Grandpa, all these things that
(48:07):
were like, oh, I was going to build this life
and then that's gone, and so that never really necessarily
goes away. Now, there's a lot of healing when you
get to the point of like, oh, this is what
it is. You kind of learned to be in the
present moment.
Speaker 7 (48:20):
In your new future that you have exactly and then
setting that up.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
But the reason why Heartbreaker lost in grief is so
hard is a lot of times not the you know,
it is like what it was like when I lost
my grandpa was one of my best friends. It gave
me such a lesson of oh, there was so much
love here, you know, like there was so much love
that loss, and I miss and I miss what was,
(48:46):
but I also miss what could have been, you know,
the golf trips or whatever.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
You miss them in that moment and you miss them
in the future.
Speaker 7 (48:53):
So you're all the dreams.
Speaker 5 (48:54):
Yeah, oh yeah, that's so good.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
I feel like i could talk to you all day, but.
Speaker 5 (48:58):
I'm not going to keep you all ding.
Speaker 7 (49:01):
I talk so much. You're such a good no.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
I honestly, it's such an important every everything you guys
have done, what you're doing is really powerful.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
Who you are is really powerful.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
And I'm so glad that you took some time to
sit down and talk about all this. So thank you
for for coming on and being open to talk about
all this stuff.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
Because I know it's hard.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
Yeah, thank you, And yeah I love your podcast. I
love what you're doing too.
Speaker 5 (49:22):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
I get it like sitting with you, like the spirit
of it is really beautiful and you have this kind
of like welcoming spirit. So I'm excited for you and
what's to come.
Speaker 5 (49:32):
Thank you. Just you know, I much greater.
Speaker 7 (49:34):
Where did the name come from?
Speaker 2 (49:35):
That's why I take this personally so much like with
your Guys' album and wanting to help people feel less
alone with your music and what you're doing built out
of the experiences of my life. I had been through
really hard things and I was like I struggled with
going through those alone a lot.
Speaker 5 (49:51):
Not in that I didn't have.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Support systems, but there just wasn't a lot out there
that I could relate to and feel what I was
feeling and not feel crazy for it. Yeah, And so
I want to a podcast to be that voice then
for people who are going through things when I wish
I would have had it. And take this personally, it's
just like I hope you take it to heart. I
hope that everything that you're hearing here, like I hope
it is something for you.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
It can be one word, it can be a whole episode.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
It can be multiple episodes, but whatever it means, I
want you to take something from it and really like
grab it.
Speaker 5 (50:20):
And take it because it's yours.
Speaker 7 (50:22):
That's cool.
Speaker 5 (50:22):
So I like that all of all of that.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
So we're doing some of the things different creative mode.
Speaker 7 (50:27):
Yes, so take this personally mother efforts.
Speaker 5 (50:29):
Yeah, that's exactly what that might be my new tagline,
all of them.
Speaker 7 (50:34):
Now, thank you, thank you for the boys.
Speaker 5 (50:36):
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Juda's really great to chat with you. I know grief
is such a heavy topic, but I'm happy you were
here today to listen, and I hope it maybe helped
you start to move through some of your own. If
you'd like to follow Page or Judah, I've linked both
of their pages in the description of the podcast, as
(50:58):
well as the podcast Instagram page. Please dem me if
you have any questions, comments, feedback you may have, or
topics you want me to discuss and subscribe to the show.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
While you're here, I'll.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Love you forever, well I will anyways.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Okay, friends, this is where I leave you.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
But next week I do have on Zoe Greco, who
is an intuitive reader to help all of us impass
learn to be okay. With being deep feelers, and she's
also going to do a reading on me, which it's
gonna get real personal for me. You'll get to hear
all about my Aura, so be sure to tune in
next week.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
Talk to y'all next time.
Speaker 7 (51:30):
Bye,
Julesman.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hi, everybody, another special episode this week dedicated to the
topic of grief. I saw several messages from you all
who wanted me to explore this topic for a multitude
of reasons. So first, I'm bringing on Paige, who is
a psychotherapist, to get her educational expertise on grief. She
also specializes in E M d R, which is a
technique that may be able to help some people in
(00:40):
different ways than traditional therapy does. Then Judah from Judah
and the Line is on to talk about their new album,
which breaks down the process of grief through music. So
instead of me sitting here talking about it, let's get
into it right now with Page, who is a psychotherapist.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Page, how are you doing well?
Speaker 4 (01:05):
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
It's good to meet you virtually, and I'm really excited
to talk with you.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
Really.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
The topic we're focusing on today is grief because grief
is such a universal human experience, and it's one that
I think we kind of like to feel like we
don't experience sometimes because it's easier to believe that it
doesn't happen. But I want to talk about grief in
(01:33):
this sense, like, what are some ways that if somebody's
dealing with grief, that we can make it a little
bit easier on ourselves because we are going to experience it,
especially more as we get through life and we get
older and things start to happen.
Speaker 6 (01:47):
It's such a good question, and I love that you're
naming the fact that we might have this tendency to
want to avoid it, or if someone else might be
struggling with grief, it can be almost easier to want
to avoid that because it's.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Just a really scary thing.
Speaker 6 (02:04):
But yeah, it will happen to all of us in
some way, whether it's losing a loved one, whether it's
health changes, whether it's a friendship changing or a separation.
I mean, it can show up in so many different ways.
So some ways to make it easier or help somebody
(02:26):
process through it, I often, you know, as a therapist,
like I'll typically start with education around common grief reactions
as well as just how the process can look like.
And that can just be really like normalizing for folks.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
The common ways that it can show up. I like
to go hard very quickly, by the way, I just
get like ride into the topics, because that's what everybody
loves to hear about. But let's break it down a
little bit. What are the common ways that it shows up?
Even though it's an emotional experience, it can show up
and manifest in your body in so many different ways.
And I think if we can recognize that this something
(03:07):
that we may be dealing with is grief versus oh,
that's not what that is kind of thing, then maybe
we don't push it as away as much totally.
Speaker 6 (03:16):
I mean, I think a big link to grief is anger.
So if you're angry about something, you can track it
back and see like, is their loss or is.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Their grief showing up as well?
Speaker 6 (03:28):
And sometimes anger can be an easier reaction to have
than grief because grief can be so so deep and isolating.
Other ways it might show up. I think, you know,
things can manifest physically a lot, so people might notice,
you know, grief in their chest or in their stomach.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
It might show up as isolating, you know, from loved ones.
Speaker 6 (03:55):
Depending on the person, it can show up in so
many interesting ways, right.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yes, Yeah, And you also mentioned to I think we're
a little stingy with grief.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Some people are when they believe that grief.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Is only associated with death and I would love for
you to expand on that some more For some people
who may think this way, like you can't have.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Grief in other situations.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Of your life, whether it be the loss of a relationship,
the loss of a pet, the loss of a career change,
or an experience in your life.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
I think we.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Often just associate grief with death. I personally don't feel
that way, but I would just love a perspective of
someone who is in a professional field to be like,
this is real and it is possible to experience grief
on multiple levels, Like what can that kind of be
like from your perspective?
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I end up pointing it out.
Speaker 6 (04:48):
I feel like kind of a grief detective in some
sessions with folks because I'm like, oh, I think what's
coming up there is actually grief, and then naming that
can be helpful. But I think I noticed it a
lot for folks going through, you know, major life transition,
Like maybe they are graduating college and moving to a
new city and there's grief of kind of losing the
(05:10):
close knit friendships that they've had. Maybe it's somebody who
has gone through a medical condition and they're grieving the
abilities that they had before that Yeah, so many different ways,
so many sneaky ways that grief can show up in
our life. Even just somebody entering into retirement, like that
(05:34):
can be a very happy time or what they think,
you know, they should be celebrating, they should be so excited,
But then there can be loss in identity and just
trying to like reconfigure who they are in this next phase.
So it can also be associated with happy things as well.
(05:54):
And then when that happens, we can tend to minimize
the grief and not lean in and process it and
really understand it.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And when somebody minimizes the grief or chooses not to
process grief, what can that do to somebody's life if
they choose to ignore it.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Oh, the longer we ignore it, just it doesn't go away.
Speaker 6 (06:17):
It's just it can turn into complex or complicated grief
down the road.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
So if I encourage somebody, if they.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
Have had a big loss, you know, to try to
process it as soon as possible, because the longer, the
longer you go, I mean, the more complicated it can get.
To try to sift through all of it. When it's fresher,
I think, then you're allowing yourself to process it. More naturally,
so going to individual therapy, going to a grief group
(06:50):
can really be a lovely thing because then you're like,
oh wow, I feel kind of crazy, but now I
realize that I'm not alone in this, and all of
these feelings and and experiences and things that I might
do now are actually very normal. And so just having
that connection to others during that time when it is
really fresh can be next to.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And we often talk about too when it comes to grief,
this timeline idea. Everybody believes there could be a timeline.
Some people experience it quicker, some it last years.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Is there a timeline for grief?
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Yeah, I think you already know.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
I do, but you.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Know, listen, I sometimes I have to really ask the
simple questions just to make people have better experiences with
understanding these things.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
So yeah, break it down for us.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
No, I like it. I like the question.
Speaker 6 (07:39):
Yeah, it's not linear, there is no timeline, and that
I think is like part of normalizing this process, and
like that it is going to you know, everyone's going
to react differently based on the relationship to the loved
one that they lost, based on environmental factors like potential
secondary losses that they could be experiencing with this one.
(08:03):
So that might be you know, if the person that
they lost was like the bread winner, or they did
the or they took care of the bills, or they
did a lot of child's care. If it's a spouse,
then you're kind of also adjusting to all of those
other secondary losses that are happening. So it's not linear,
and it really can just ebb and flow. There's this
(08:27):
this metaphor then I'm going to try not to butcher,
but it's like if you imagine grief is like a
ball in this box, and it's a big ball at first. Well,
and in that box there's like a button that is
this trigger response or this like emotional kind of grief response.
And so when the grief is so fresh, the ball
is big and it's going to hit that button way
(08:51):
more often. And then as you process the grief, the
ball gets smaller and smaller, and so it's less likely
to hit that button. But when it does happened to
hit that button, the response is still going to feel intent,
like as intent says before. So it's like the idea
that it can shift and change over time, but it
(09:12):
is not linear and it will never go away. Like,
your grief will always be there, especially you know if
you had this deep love for that person.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Gosh, yeah, that's a good analogy.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
I like the yarn button.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
I guess so fun.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Now to speaking of processing your grief, if somebody were
to come to you and they recognize like, hey, I
have grief. I don't even know where to start. How
do I start to process this? Is there some exercises
or maybe something that immediately you're like, this could probably
start to ease that process. Is there anything that transcends
(09:51):
for everybody as an exercise to start using. If they're
listening to this and they're like, yes, I have grief.
I don't know what to do, and I don't know
where to start.
Speaker 6 (09:58):
Oh my gosh, I have so many ideas, so I'll
give a few. So I mean, first of all, in session,
it's just like dedicating time to talk about the loved
one that they lost, or maybe it wasn't a loved one,
maybe it was someone that they lost that they had
a complicated relationship with. Just having that space for them
to talk to somebody is going to make a big difference.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
So there is.
Speaker 6 (10:22):
That just for them to be able to talk about
their person staying connected with other people that knew that
person as well, to continue to share stories and honor
them and be able to really on different emotions that
might be coming up. That can be a lovely way
to continue to process. For my folks who like to
(10:44):
stuff things down. I encourage people to dedicate like maybe
fifteen minutes per day to just feel the feelings of grief.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
So set a timer.
Speaker 6 (10:56):
You know, this might not work for everybody, but it
can be a way to set aside that time and
you might like listen to music that reminds you of
that person, you might look at pictures to just really
let yourself process through it, and then once the fifteen
minutes is up, then you kind of, you know, can
transition back into your day.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I'm thinking of one of those timers that's in the
movies where you like, crank it and you're like, oh no,
the things you're like, okay, time's up, I'm picturing right now.
Speaker 6 (11:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Yeah, So it can.
Speaker 6 (11:27):
It can be a little abrupt, you know, so maybe
it works, maybe not, But I.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Feel like it's a great way if you're if you're
a planner and you're someone who's like I have a
whole life to live and I can't focus on this.
It's forcing you to focus on it. And it's really
important to feel those feelings, even when you are a
busy human being and you've chose to kind of set
it aside.
Speaker 6 (11:46):
Yeah, and as like a therapist, it's I feeling your
feelings is like the key to help manage anxiety and
stress and grief, but it is a tough skill to
really hone it on in practice.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Do you feel like this is totally a little offshoot,
but do you feel like feeling your feelings is also
another universal human experience that we are all trying to
figure out how to navigate.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Yeah, yeah, probably. Yeah, it's scary because it's like what
if I lose control? What if after.
Speaker 6 (12:20):
These fifteen minutes I can't come out of it? And
so that that is a fear that comes up. And
I will say, the more you practice it, the more
control you know you'll have kind of within your day
to day like you'll be able to manage manage your
emotions even more when you let yourself have them.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yes, just like with anything, you have to start somewhere,
and grief is no different. Unfortunately, Yes, now you do
have some expertise in emd R. Can you explain what
that is for anybody who may not know.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Yeah, yeah, it's a mouthful. And a lot of people
say EDMR the.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Natural way because EDM music and you just want to
add R onto it.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
Yeah, and I'm like sure, so I movement desensitization and
reprocessing and what it is. It was originally developed for PTSD,
but it can also be very effective for grief and anxiety,
substance abuse, So all these different things that it can
that it can help.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
And what it.
Speaker 6 (13:26):
Does is it takes these distressing events in our life
and we use eye movements or bilateral tapping, some type
of bilateral stimulation to help file those distressing events away
in a more adaptive way. So when we go through
(13:46):
something really distressing or traumatic, our brain and our body,
like our nervous systems, stores it maladaptively, and when we
have triggers in our present day, it can bring up
those past feelings as if it's happening all over again.
And so with the DR we can put the past
(14:09):
in the past and not feel so activated or so
emotionally charged when we face things that could bring up
those past events.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Wow, it's physical therapy.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
But for the brain.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
It is fascinating. Yeah, clients are like, this is witchcraft,
this is voodoo.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
What are you?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
How many sessions do you feel like?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I know that everybody's different, more of an average here, Like,
how many sessions do you feel like it takes somebody
to one start to feel the experience of it and
to kind of really see the results of it.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
Yeah, I mean I think like a like a good
average if I were to pick a number, would be
like maybe six sessions, I will say, just to be
able to feel the effects of it, you know, get
yourself comfortable with the process. I would say like six
kind of regular fifty minute sessions could be good to start.
It is recommended to do EMDR in like ninety minute
(15:14):
sessions or just longer sessions. It's nice to be able
to once we're in the nervous system, to be able
to kind of keep that momentum going. So personally, I
love working in longer sessions that can be like four
hours in a day or it might be three days
(15:34):
in a row, But it will depend on the person
and what they can tolerate, and like what methods of
coping they already have in place, and the work that
they've already done kind of leading up to it.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
So do you feel like EMDR is something that you
use as an exercise after you've tried other things, or
is it something that if you know, you have this
kind of really big life event that happened that's holding
you kind of in a stuck pattern, is that kind
of when you go at it or is it like
(16:10):
last option? How do people because I'm so familiar with EMDR, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah, it can be any and all of that. So,
you know, I think the.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
Most the most basic method with EMDR is going to
be like, Okay, you had a traumatic You have one
traumatic event and like maybe it was like a car
accident or you witnessed, you know, somebody having a heart
attack or something something big. So you can absolutely use
EMDR with an event like that to help the person
(16:44):
get unstuck from it. But you could also use it
with little tea traumas or attachment wounds and just those
micro moments that could have happened throughout somebody's like childhood
or teen years that made them feel neglected or not good.
So there's different kind of needs that it can be
effective for.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So I'm hearing that I need to schedule an appointment
for this like asap.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
It's very relatable.
Speaker 6 (17:13):
I mean, so you can use it for like present
day triggers, like if you're just noticing like, oh gosh,
I'm getting really irritable with this person, or you know,
I'm so stressed at work, I am having such a
hard time with like presenting. You can use it for
like performance anxiety, So it can be like present day stuff,
(17:35):
it can be past trauma. You can even use it
for like procrastination, so it's a wide net.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. I have never heard of
this until I found you through looking for grief specific stuff,
but then I saw this on your profile and I
did some reading into it. But now, especially hearing you
talk about it, that feels like it can be so
beneficial to just so many different people, especially maybe some
(18:03):
that aren't super great at wanting to go to therapy.
Maybe this is a different version of that that can
help them through that. So that's so cool.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
It is cool also because you don't have to talk.
Speaker 6 (18:17):
Through everything, which can be nice for some. It can
be good if you've done a lot of therapy too,
and you're just like I haven't made the progress that
I really want to make. There's something there's some stuckness
or there's some barrier that I'm still like really wanting
to overcome, and so it can be great for that too.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Well, Paige, thank you so much for giving me your
expertise on grief and on this that I think is
going to be so valuable for a lot of people.
But I really just appreciate you taking time and coming on.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Yeah, this is fine. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I'm really excited right now to be joined by Judah Acres,
who you all may know from Judah and the Lion.
Speaker 7 (19:04):
Judah, how are you doing good? It's all cozy here.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Like, yeah, it's very cozy vibes, and.
Speaker 7 (19:09):
Your dog in my lap. We talked about.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
Very deep things.
Speaker 7 (19:13):
About telling what I'll say with a dog in my lap.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
I have your therapy already ready for you. So I've
been a fan of you guys, gosh for years.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I mean, you guys have multiple albums at this point,
but I really think that your latest album, The Process,
is one of my favorite yet.
Speaker 7 (19:29):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
And I feel like that's just because of how.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Vulnerable and deep it is, and I would so love
to know, like the life events that led you to
put out an album like that, if you're willing to.
Speaker 7 (19:42):
Talk about them, Yeah, thank you. That's super sweet.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
The process, it's kind of one of those funny things
where me and Brian, my bandmate, we had this idea
to write a record about the process of grief. We
chose the Koubla Rossis Stages and this was about I
guess four or five year yars ago. I had written
a record called Pep Talks that was a lot about
just kind of growing up as a southern dude and
(20:08):
having great parents, amazing parents, and then kind of watching
their life kind of really take a turn and kind
of implode in front of me. And the record is
a whole lot about just kind of like their divorce
and what it was like as a twenty four or
five year old, you know dude kind of going through
that because a lot of people go through divorce before
(20:30):
they're even born or like where their parents or you know,
as an adolescent or a teenager or whatever. And so anyways,
so we've always kind of written like from a personal
standpoint of like what we're going through in life. And
then after a couple really kind of hard deaths in
my family that could be really interesting to kind of
(20:52):
rite through these Kuble Rossi's stages of grief, which is denial, anger, bargaining, depression,
and then acceptance. And so as we were kind of
getting done with our last cycle, getting out of the pandemic,
we were like, I think this is time to do
it because I had just gone through really hard divorce
(21:12):
and so outside of like loss, losing my aunt and
uncle and grandpa and you know, all of this kind
of other stuff and my parents kind of struggling at
the time, Like this is like, this is the time
to write about the process of grief because I transparently
did not want to write about my divorce for a
(21:33):
lot of reasons. I feel like the world didn't need
another divorce record. You know, there's a lot of heartbreak
records out there.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, but you were also going through multiple different versions
of grief. You were going through like the loss of
life and grief and also the loss of a future
that you had believed in, and so to go through
writing an album that was going to be multiple different
versions of grief is not common. Also because we are
so closely associated with one version of grief, which is
(22:03):
the loss of somebody, but the other grief where you
have to mourn somebody that's still alive, we don't like
to talk about that.
Speaker 7 (22:10):
No, And I definitely was not.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I told Brian, I was just like, man, I just
when I don't really want to release these songs that
I'm writing because they're deeply personal, and now it's like
I'm not writing about my parents divorce and writing about
my own, which you know, when you get married, you
don't ever expect to get divorced, and that comes with
like a lot of shame and guilt and personal like
(22:35):
defeats that you would.
Speaker 7 (22:36):
Have never kind of imagined.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
But then writing the record and having all these other
kind of versions of grief of losing very close ones
to suicide and other mental health issues and really learning
to kind of, I guess, cope in healthier ways than
I was coping. The records a lot about like you know,
the nights that I was over dreaming and kind of
(23:02):
coping in ways that was not healthy for myself and
wanting people to kind of learn from those mistakes. And yeah,
I ended up being just kind of this like wild,
like oh my God, Like I was in denial so
harshly here whether it be with my mom. My mom's
like version of kind of running away from just like
(23:25):
what she was doing with with alcohol, like denial in
that like, oh my gosh, my marriage is in shambles
and I can't even really admit that to myself or
my friends or whoever. And so getting to kind of
go through these stages and be like, man, that was
like two years ago, like I was totally in denial
here and already like it's the record's only been out
(23:48):
for a couple of months, but some of the stories
are are really wild and how people can kind of relate,
whether it be through heartbreak.
Speaker 7 (23:55):
Er divorce, or.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Loss in their their family or friends or whatever. And
then also just like we never imagine like we had someone,
we've had quite a few people actually now come up
to us and be like I just got diagnosed with YadA, YadA, YadA,
and the process has kind of helped me accept this
(24:18):
diagnosis or accept this harsh thing that you know, and
that really just puts it all into perspective of life,
like you just never really know what other people are
going through.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, And I do want to talk about your fans
at some point, but I want to go back to
a piece of this where you had mentioned how you
had found other different coping skills to deal with something.
So at what point for you did you have like
that turning point where you're like, Okay, I didn't want
to deal with this before, but now I can write
about it and I'm going to like sure this with people,
like kind of walk me through that process for you
(24:53):
of like coming to terms with what was happening and
then being like, oh, I'm going to share it with
the whole world.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, you know, Yeah, it's scary. I mean honestly, it's
just like it's really scary, you know, to do that.
I say that there's kind of three steps for records.
For me, it's like one writing it, which is really healing.
It's really healing for all of us to creatively get
out whatever you're needing to get out, whether you're a
(25:20):
journaler or like an actual painter or a poet, regardless
if you're you feel like a quote unquote creative, Like
it's good to get all that out. So that the
first part is like it's very healing. So when me
and Brian were finally like ready to do it was
when we brought back the stages and we were like, oh,
we can actually write about this in a way that's
(25:40):
different than another heartbreak record that you know, we all
know and love. But then the second part is releasing it.
And the releasing part of it is really hard because
now you're like, oh, you know, insert curse word, Like,
now everybody's going to have like an open like my journal,
(26:01):
my daily journal, and all my issues and problems and
victories and lows or whatever, they're going to be there
for people to look.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
At, inspect and decide how they feel.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, which is really hard, and it usually ends up
with me in the back of the tour bus crying
for a few hours and just kind of warning that.
And then the third part, which is the most magical part,
is singing these songs live with people in that transfer
of energy, which is the reason why we all love
music in general, is just to have that love kind
(26:37):
of back to you and somehow you're someone's connecting. And
so I don't know that there was necessarily like a
turning point, but it was.
Speaker 7 (26:46):
It was.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
There was a moment when I was sitting with my
uh he's my best friend now at the time, was
like my therapist and I was just like, man, I
really am struggling here. I feel like I'm kind of
in this depression and this was kind of you know,
my heartbreak and post all this stuff, and I just like,
I feel like I'm doing all these things and I
(27:07):
preach like health and mental health, and like, you know,
I feel like a lot of people and for whatever reason,
since the music has hit them in some way, like
I represent this thing that is like pushing mental health
and you know, all this stuff, but I'm not mentally healthy.
Speaker 7 (27:27):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And I was like, I'm over drinking and I'm doing
all this stuff, and he just looked at me and
he goes, well, of course you're ever drinking. And I
was like what and he was like, yeah, like you're
you've been being up Like it's okay. I wish you
would just be gentle with yourself. And I was like,
you don't have to be anyone's hero.
Speaker 8 (27:49):
And I was like, oh, no, James, thanks for that
staffed to the chest yeah, and I just like started weeping,
and you know, it just ended up being like, oh,
my role as a creative or an artist is to
be honest and to shed peel back and to dig
deep and to find those places in me that I
(28:11):
feel like are unlovable and let those places.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Come up, and whether it be through confession or you
know whatever, our music is trying to be honest and
not hold back any punches, but also point people to
like hope and that there's beauty on the other side
of it, regardless of the way that you're feeling at
the time. So I think that turning point for me
was like, even though I don't really want to write
(28:37):
about it, there's maybe a lot of people that could relate.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
You know, that's really powerful.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
As you were talking about that, and you wrote this
album as the Stages of grief, but you just mentioned
that you have your own stages of healing that you
do all the time, and I think that's also really
powerful that you recognize your own healing version. So it's
like that was the process for everybody else, but this
was yours. I had mentioned something there too, of that
(29:01):
hardness of going through those feelings. Do you feel like
growing up? And you know, we talk a lot about
women in society and what the standards were held to,
but also for men expressing their emotions and being able
to say like I'm not okay. Most people tell you like,
you're fine, just deal with it.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
You're a guy.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Did you feel like there was that level of that
for you and that played a role to like finally
be like, Okay.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Let me put this out here in the world.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
But everybody's been telling me, don't do this, don't put
your feelings out there.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Did you ever have that experience?
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Well, that's what's kind of funny maybe ironic about me.
Is I am that classic jock stereotype where you know,
I don't know if it was necessarily imposed on me
as like an expectation. Because so what's funny about me,
Brian and I is both our moms or therapists.
Speaker 7 (29:52):
Oh, I love that, your counselors.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
So it's like, of course we're kind of in this
like writing music about mental.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
Health and stuff, very in touch with your feelings.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah, oh yeah. And so I would say in my
house it was kind of both. Like my mom was
very like open and I mean her degree was in
child development, so like she was she wanted the emotions
to live. And then then my dad, you know who's
my I'm very close with both my parents at the moment,
(30:20):
and my dad was like a best friend, but you know,
very hard on me as a kid the coach, and
so there was both of like I don't know if
that it was necessarily imposed on me, but I did
just want to be the best at sports. I wanted
to not be the one that was like highly emotional
and all this stuff. And so I think as I
(30:40):
grew out of the teenage version of myself and found
myself in music, music became this outlet for me that
I feel very blessed to have.
Speaker 7 (30:49):
But in a lot of ways, and.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Especially during you know, this heartbreak, I didn't tell anyone
that I was suffering for years. I mean it took
it took a couple of years to even like I call.
There's a song called Sis on the record that's literally
about this breakdown moment of being like, I, this is
what's happening in my life and I just need to
(31:11):
tell you.
Speaker 7 (31:12):
And I'm really ashamed of it.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
And I don't really even know how it got this bad,
or you know, whatever the conversation was. So I do
think that naturally, at least for me as a dude,
I do have a propensity to hold things in and
bottle it, surprisingly enough, even with my music being as
(31:35):
vulnerable as it is, in my personal life, it can
be really difficult, and I think there's like, you know,
we're dudes, we want to kind of have it all together.
We want to be okay, you know, like that's our desire.
But at the end of the day, but the truth
is is that you know, everybody behind their eyelids are
(31:57):
going through something again that we don't know about, and
then maybe they don't even know about. I heard in
one of your podcasts you're talking about the.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
The role of like.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
The role that our childhood plays into our adult life.
And I think that a lot of times, like men
don't want to go there and face all that because
it's like, I'm fine, I'm not going to go dig
up these wells and you know, don't go chasing waterfalls,
you know, don't don't go finding, but not.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
Pull the troll out from another flavor down there what happened.
Speaker 7 (32:29):
Yeah, I'm fine, Like, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
And I hope as a dude that's that's trying to
write honestly and bear kind of all all emotions, that
it is an encouragement to men out there that it's
okay to be raw, to be sad, to be emotional,
because that's where the good stuff lies as well.
Speaker 5 (32:49):
Yeah, and I love.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
To hear from guys who feel like they can do
that because I want other guys to know it's okay.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
To do that.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
That's a really big piece of why I wanted to
have you on because I think it's cool your story
and how you've been able to do what you do.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
There's another thing that you had mentioned and brought up.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
I also have lost a friend to suicide, which was
a really, really hard time, and suicide is also really
different trigger of grief than we also don't really like
to talk about because that's just one that we like
to be like, Okay, I don't want to ever think
about this again because this is hard and it doesn't
(33:26):
make any sense and it's never going to make sense.
Do you have any experiences that you went through when
that was learning for you that other people who might
experience it, Because we are in such an interesting place
with mental health that people are really struggling, and unfortunately
suicide is common.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
We don't want it to be, but it is.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
And if people are losing people to that, I want
them to maybe hear from somebody who's lost to that,
and like, what your experiences is with that or just
anything you can provide in that direction.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, I think again it's the more like I live life.
It's like the common thread throughout is a lot of
times we just don't know what's going on in any
given That's why I love music so much. That's why
I mean, even like we've known each other for years now,
(34:21):
but there's things in your life that you're going through
that I will never understand, even though we're having an
amazing conversation. And I think when you lose someone to suicide,
it's like, at least for me, like the first the
first time that I did, it was very confusing to
me on what I did wrong? Could I have made
(34:43):
that call or could I have and I don't want
to say that like making it about myself. It was
just more like I never went through the struggle of
like blaming myself necessarily. But I know that's something that
a lot of people deal with, especially if it's your
best friend or a close friend or.
Speaker 7 (35:01):
You know, in my case it was like close relatives.
You know.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I think that there comes this kind of like, you know,
not to put point back to the record, but this
kind of bargaining of like, man, why did they get
that low, or was this decision like selfish you know,
from them? Or could they help it? Could I have
done anything more? And I think I think all those
(35:28):
questions are really valid. I think that's what people don't
really want to admit, is that the harshness of suicide
is really harsh, and the odds are as like that
person was just going through something so hard and real
that brought them to that moment. And I kind of
(35:49):
kept stop saying they committed suicide. I've started saying they
lost their life to suicide, kind of like addiction or
anything like that, where it's like it's so misunderstood and
so unexplained, like neurologically it's.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
A mental health disorder disease, like like it is you
are losing your life to that because it was uncontr
that was something that was neurologically the way that you
viewed the world and we couldn't change that. But there
was so much in there that it's important. I really
hope that was helpful for somebody out there. I thank
you for talking about that, because I also know that's
(36:27):
really hard to like just sit here and be like, yeah,
I went through this, and let me say it There
is a song on your Guys' record that I really loved,
Floating in the Night.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
It's right after the anger stage.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
It's in the anger stage, and much like you were
talking of, you have all these questions, I think everything
associated with grief. You always have this stage where there's
so many questions, what did I do?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
What could I change what?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Because hindsight becomes twenty twenty once you're.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
Out of something.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
No matter what the grief is, right, there's always this
like you're looking back at I could have done that,
or I could have done this. In that anchor stage
is so hard. I feel like a lot of people
and like in my personal experience, you ruminate in spiral
in that phase because you're just constantly asking questions a
million times over and you're never going to get an answer,
Like to ask these open questions where it's like there's
(37:17):
never going to be a response and you just have to.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
Live with that.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, Like that's the ruminating phase. That's where it happens.
And I love that song because it really is like
you're just floating and there's nothing you can do about it.
You have to just exist out in the universe totally.
So I just I really love what you guys have
done with all of that. And I also want to
talk about your fans too. You had mentioned how like
some of them have come up, like what has that
(37:41):
experience been like for you now putting something so vulnerable
out and people are really connecting with it.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
It's the reason why we make music is to hear
the stories and to to really feel like there's like
purpose in it, you know. I feel like Brian and
I we've always tried to keep the core reason why
we make music the same thing. And of course we're humans,
and so that gets blurred by well, we want to
(38:07):
be like selling out stadiums like so and so, or
we want to be how we want to have another
hit or whatever it may be.
Speaker 7 (38:15):
But at the core of like, the.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Reason why we make music is to make people feel
less hopefully make people feel less alone. So coming out
with this record one is the most terrifying record that
we've ever released for a lot of reasons. But I
think we're surprised and honored that other people's stories, whether
it be about like what we were talking about, like
(38:36):
losing a friend or a best friend, or a father
or a mother, or going through their own divorce and
not really understanding why or getting like we had someone
that had like a stage four cancer diagnosis, and then
understanding we had a man come up with his family.
I don't want to get emotional, but it was just like,
this might be my last show.
Speaker 7 (38:58):
It's busted.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
I'm like getting light six wants to live in the
processes kind of, and so those moments are just kind
of like I want to feel that and to be there,
and that moment, you know, when you're looking down at
his family or at him and you're singing these songs,
all everything else kind of disappears and you're like, I
(39:21):
don't know why these stories like really connected to that
specific story and another. But it really makes me believe
in the magic of music and the reason why we
all love music and going to shows or whatever it
may be is having these artists that I'm not speaking
about me, but the artists that I love, that you
(39:44):
go to the shows and there's just kind of this
easy magic of love that is kind of coming through
the speakers and then ask back to them and yeah,
I don't know, it's just like that I'm kind of
maybe going down some rabbit.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Trails here, but you can keep going this is great.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yeah, well it's just amazing, and I think it's just
yeah it to have strangers or people that are strangers
coming and then relating that to their story in any way,
it's just kind of a miracle and of a sense.
And then there's just just this unspoken thing I think
with humans and this transfer of love that happens when
(40:26):
the stories connect.
Speaker 7 (40:27):
So that's a really really big honor for us.
Speaker 5 (40:30):
Oh that's a that's a really good one.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And I love that you guys are getting to experience,
Like I guess the fruits of your labor is a
way to put it, but like I think being able
to put something out so vulnerable and just like you said,
it was terrifying to do.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
But then on the other side, you're seeing.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
Okay, this was worth it.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
All of this was worth it.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Even if it's just for that one guy who came
up and he's going through that in that moment. What's
for you, Like you look at this entire experience over.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
The course of your life so far are in this.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Putting together this album, what's been like your biggest lesson takeaway?
Like you're talking about how your fans are taking away
things from this record, But for you from the start,
from when all of these things were happening, to the
things that you put yourself through, to then coming out
the other side, to then creating the record, Like what
do you feel like has been your biggest takeaway from
that whole entire process, not you know, no pun intended.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, that's such a good question. I I just learned
so much in the last few years. So a lot
of it going back to your question about you know,
bottling stuff as a as a man. So I had
chronic back pain during my divorce. Couldn't really figure out
what was going on. It's like my luwer back like
(41:46):
like kind of took me out of like running and
all these things that I love, which exercise, you know,
if you are depressed, I think is like one of
the most important things that you can do. But it's
funny how your body is like, well you're set or
you're angry, and you're not dealing with it. And so
I went to this like doctor or like you're just stress.
(42:07):
It was like okay, but I cannot get rid of
this back being like one of the chiropractor, you know,
doing all of this stuff in this one week, I
just got so angry at everything. I mean, I was
yelling at everyone, and if you know me, that's not
my default. My default is more kind of soft, or
(42:30):
I like to say that it's more kind of soft
and gentle.
Speaker 7 (42:33):
Maybe not on the pick a ball court.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
But but I think, I think what I've learned, So
I after that week when I just got angry and
exploded and had to apologize to a lot of friends.
Speaker 7 (42:46):
After it, my back pain went away.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
And so there's this this concept of your body kind
of holding these emotions, that.
Speaker 5 (42:54):
Your body keeps the score.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yes, of course, and it's it's so true. But the
other side of that is your body, the body knows
the way. And so through that, I guess what I've
learned most about the process and even going through these
kind of stages, these five stages, is I think as
an athlete or as maybe as a man, maybe you
(43:18):
relate to this as a woman as well, but that
I think I was just looking for a step to
step program to like heal my broken heart, and so
I would do anything. I mean, I was going to acupuncture,
I was going to I was going to therapy, like
probably too much.
Speaker 7 (43:37):
You know.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
It was just kind of like I'm a fixer. I'm
going to fix this, like I'm going to do whatever
the control of this. And and the truth is is
there's no rollbook too, to going through the divorce. There's
no rollbook to getting a terrible diagnosis, there's no rollbook
to you know, losing someone in any way, whether it
(43:58):
be a sudden death or suicide or cancer, whatever it
may be. There's no rule book to it. And I
think what I've learned the most is like being able
to hold all those places in you that are angry
at it, that are in denial with whatever you're going through.
Maybe you are an alcoholic, you're an addict, and you
(44:21):
are in denial or holding this like wrestle or what
I call the bargaining, which is kind of this personal
inventory of like.
Speaker 7 (44:31):
Where am I at this? Like why am I mad
at God? You know, like why you know?
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Questioning and then holding the sadness or the depression of
all of it.
Speaker 7 (44:41):
It's truly just.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Like learning to love the sides of you that you
don't love and learning that those need this space to
come up. And when anger comes out, not to be
like too hippie, but like asking the anger, like what's
up like, I'm not going to push you down anymore
war because if I do, I back hurt.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
I'm going to feel that I'm just gonna deal with this.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
And har But it's learning to like treat all those
spaces in yourself like a friend. And for other people,
anger might look like frustration or resentment or jealousy or whatever,
but asking like oh why am I jealous of this person?
Speaker 7 (45:18):
Or why am.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
I I'm gonna let myself feel this sadness and ask
it questions like why are you sad? Because a lot
of times, like we are, it's probably justified while you're sad.
This is a hard life, I mean, justified while you're
angry and not understanding you know. So I think all
(45:40):
that to say is that the process is it's kind
of like almost like not a process. It's like it's
like learning to just to be able to hold all
of it at once.
Speaker 7 (45:50):
That's so hard, which sucks. It's almost it's pretty much impossible.
Speaker 5 (45:55):
Yeah, Well, because you.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Look at everybody's life and if you look at all
the things that you're having to juggle, we can't. It's
it's humanly impossible to juggle all the things that people juggle.
Every day and then on top of it to be
okay with like all.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Your emotions that you're experiencing. It's superhuman abilities.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
And yet we're still sitting here all like trying, just
trying to figure our way through.
Speaker 5 (46:17):
It's like it's like, what are we doing? Guys?
Speaker 1 (46:19):
It's fine, absolutely, I mean and like when, uh, I
forget who said this. We had so many amazing people
that knew way more about these stages than what we did.
But I think it might have been James who said
denial was actually your body's way of protecting itself. Like
it's this you're if you were to take on all
(46:40):
the emotions you felt like when you're when you went
through you know, I don't forget you said as a
friend or whoever it was that committed suicide, if you
were to take all those emotions that once you die,
because it's just too much. So your body has to
go through this version of like all right, I'm out.
I can't deal with this right now.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Well, because I mean, I grief and heartbreak whatever it
looks like, is the hardest.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Human emotion to experience the rest of them.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Kind of have this out right, Like you can be
happy and there's an hour.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
You can be angry and there's an out.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But like true, like heartbreak, you just have to deal
with it and like put it back together. You don't heal,
you don't like you heal in the process, but you
never are fully healed again. You're healed in a different way. Right, So,
like to pretend that heartbreak just doesn't of any kind
of fashion of losing an animal, of losing a friend
(47:35):
or experiencing a heartbreak like in a relationship, to pretend
that that doesn't hurt as.
Speaker 5 (47:39):
Bad as it does.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Like that's going to give you some problems because it's
such a big emotion.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah, and few it's it's kind of future tense too.
It's like a lot of times this isn't a book
that I was reading, I think, but it was heartbreak
or a loss is not necessarily of like what it was,
but the projection of what have been and all those
dreams that you had with this said person or a
dog or whoever, you know, Grandpa, all these things that
(48:07):
were like, oh, I was going to build this life
and then that's gone, and so that never really necessarily
goes away. Now, there's a lot of healing when you
get to the point of like, oh, this is what
it is. You kind of learned to be in the
present moment.
Speaker 7 (48:20):
In your new future that you have exactly and then
setting that up.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
But the reason why Heartbreaker lost in grief is so
hard is a lot of times not the you know,
it is like what it was like when I lost
my grandpa was one of my best friends. It gave
me such a lesson of oh, there was so much
love here, you know, like there was so much love
that loss, and I miss and I miss what was,
(48:46):
but I also miss what could have been, you know,
the golf trips or whatever.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
You miss them in that moment and you miss them
in the future.
Speaker 7 (48:53):
So you're all the dreams.
Speaker 5 (48:54):
Yeah, oh yeah, that's so good.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
I feel like i could talk to you all day, but.
Speaker 5 (48:58):
I'm not going to keep you all ding.
Speaker 7 (49:01):
I talk so much. You're such a good no.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
I honestly, it's such an important every everything you guys
have done, what you're doing is really powerful.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
Who you are is really powerful.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
And I'm so glad that you took some time to
sit down and talk about all this. So thank you
for for coming on and being open to talk about
all this stuff.
Speaker 5 (49:17):
Because I know it's hard.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
Yeah, thank you, And yeah I love your podcast. I
love what you're doing too.
Speaker 5 (49:22):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
I get it like sitting with you, like the spirit
of it is really beautiful and you have this kind
of like welcoming spirit. So I'm excited for you and
what's to come.
Speaker 5 (49:32):
Thank you. Just you know, I much greater.
Speaker 7 (49:34):
Where did the name come from?
Speaker 2 (49:35):
That's why I take this personally so much like with
your Guys' album and wanting to help people feel less
alone with your music and what you're doing built out
of the experiences of my life. I had been through
really hard things and I was like I struggled with
going through those alone a lot.
Speaker 5 (49:51):
Not in that I didn't have.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Support systems, but there just wasn't a lot out there
that I could relate to and feel what I was
feeling and not feel crazy for it. Yeah, And so
I want to a podcast to be that voice then
for people who are going through things when I wish
I would have had it. And take this personally, it's
just like I hope you take it to heart. I
hope that everything that you're hearing here, like I hope
it is something for you.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
It can be one word, it can be a whole episode.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
It can be multiple episodes, but whatever it means, I
want you to take something from it and really like
grab it.
Speaker 5 (50:20):
And take it because it's yours.
Speaker 7 (50:22):
That's cool.
Speaker 5 (50:22):
So I like that all of all of that.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
So we're doing some of the things different creative mode.
Speaker 7 (50:27):
Yes, so take this personally mother efforts.
Speaker 5 (50:29):
Yeah, that's exactly what that might be my new tagline,
all of them.
Speaker 7 (50:34):
Now, thank you, thank you for the boys.
Speaker 5 (50:36):
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Juda's really great to chat with you. I know grief
is such a heavy topic, but I'm happy you were
here today to listen, and I hope it maybe helped
you start to move through some of your own. If
you'd like to follow Page or Judah, I've linked both
of their pages in the description of the podcast, as
(50:58):
well as the podcast Instagram page. Please dem me if
you have any questions, comments, feedback you may have, or
topics you want me to discuss and subscribe to the show.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
While you're here, I'll.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Love you forever, well I will anyways.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Okay, friends, this is where I leave you.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
But next week I do have on Zoe Greco, who
is an intuitive reader to help all of us impass
learn to be okay. With being deep feelers, and she's
also going to do a reading on me, which it's
gonna get real personal for me. You'll get to hear
all about my Aura, so be sure to tune in
next week.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
Talk to y'all next time.
Speaker 7 (51:30):
Bye,
Host
Morgan Huelsman
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