June 3, 2025 • 31 mins
On this episode of Five to Thrive Live, our guest, Dr. Dugald Seely, ND, FABNO will share some of the newest findings on the health benefits of exercise for people with cancer. We will learn what kind, how much, how often to exercise, and Dr. Dugald will offer tips on motivating you to buff up your exercise program.
Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Five To Thrive Live Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Five To Thrive Live Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello, Welcome to five to Thrive Live, a podcast about
thriving for those who have been affected by cancer and
chronic disease on Doctor Lisa Schuler and I co host
this podcast with Carolyn Gazella. You can find all of
our past shows on any major podcast outlet and a
schedule on ithriveplan dot com. And tonight, I'm very excited
(01:01):
to be talking with my colleague and friend, doctor Dougold Sealy.
We're going to be talking about exercise and some new
findings around exercise, some nuances, shall we say, about exercise,
particularly within the realm of a cancer diagnosis. So we're
going to learn about some of the latest research and
we're going to also get very practical and talk about
(01:24):
some strategies. Doctor Dougold Celi is a natropathic doctor who
runs the Center for Health Innovation, a large multidisciplinary clinic
in Ottawa. He's also the executive director for the Patterson
Institute for Integrative Oncology Research with the Canadian College of
Nature Pathic Medicine. Doctor Ceely has been awarded over twelve
(01:44):
million dollars in support of clinical and synthesis research and
has published over one hundred peer reviewed papers and book chapters.
Doctor Seely was a previous president with the Oncology Association
of Nature Pathic Physicians and a recipient of the esteemed
and prestigious Doctor Rogers Prize. So he'll come and join
(02:06):
us in just a sec But before we start the
conversation with doctor Ceelia, I want to thank our sponsors. First,
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thirty years with twelve probiotic strains which are shelf stable
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and you can learn more at doctor Orhira Probiotics dot com. Well, hello, Doogled,
welcome to five to Thrive Live.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Hi. Lee's really great to be on with you.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Again, indeed, and I'm excited to be talking about this
because I have long said, well, you know what changes,
But I would say pretty consistently I've said if I
was left with one strategy on my desert island for
preventing cancer, it would be exercise. It kind of is
in battle with stress release. But I think exercise is
(03:51):
really really important, and I think you do too. So
let's start. What are some of the broad benefits of exercise, Like, basically,
why is it good for all of us?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. It's hard to
think of something that isn't kind of improved by exercise.
So as far as medicine goes from a panacea standpoint,
the exercise is probably one of the closest things to that.
I think. You know, we all know about exercise being beneficial,
(04:23):
just like we know that eating our fruits and vegetables
in particular are useful. So it kind of gets lost
in that certainty that everyone knows. But I think that
is a bit of a sad thing because it's just
so potent in terms of its effects. But everything from
cardiovascular disease risk, blood sugar management, diabetes, stroke risk, dementia risk,
(04:45):
cancer risk, you know, all kinds of things benefit from exercise,
and in particular just how we feel about our lives,
I would say, and how we feel in general.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, I mean that's kind of the amazing thing. It's
hard for people who aren't well, we're going to get
to strategies for people who are having trouble starting a
regular exercise routine. But once you start, you feel so
much better and you're getting all those benefits, which is
kind of unusual in terms of strategy. So that's a
that's a big plus. So what about cancer? Is there
(05:16):
a specific cancer preventive effect from exercise? And maybe you
can give us a little bit of nuance into this,
like what kind of exercise is most beneficial and what type,
you know, what frequency, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Yeah, so I think in terms of cancer risk prevention,
the primary prevention piece, there's clearly benefits with respect to
having a regularity with exercise to reduce the risk of
most cancers. And you know, most of the big cancer
types breast, coorectal, along you know, endometrial, even ovariant, they've
(05:54):
been studied for this more so than the more rare
cancers because they just inherently get more research. And there's
clearly a preventative benefit by having physical activity to reduce
the risk. Admit that may be up to about a
third of a risk reduction from that standpoint, and then
(06:14):
it sort of applies as well when we're looking at
secondary prevention, the prevention of recurrence of risk coming back.
There's some really there's some good growing evidence around the
ability of exercise to reduce that. Most of this evidence
is coming from observational studies, so there's you know, there's
some there's some biases and there's some limitations with interpretation
(06:37):
of that data. But just like we understood from observational
data that's smoking is a clear risk factor for cancer,
and that's basically proven beyond a doubt without an a
randomized clinical trial, I think we're kind of at that
same place when it comes to exercise now as well.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And when you say exercise, like be more specific if
you will, because I think this is something that people,
you know, there's some confusion, partly because this all started
with this thirty minutes of moderate pace walking five days
a week, and that's kind of become the line or
almost synonymous with exercise in terms of cancer prevention. But
(07:16):
is that really the best or you know, tell us
what you've learned.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yeah, I think it's always relative to the person in
terms of the benefits that they achieve. So someone who
is pretty much said and Terry isn't doing very much
is you know, maybe overweight or not either, but simply
is not being very active, not even really walking much.
Then you know, just walking a few times a week
(07:42):
for short distances will make a huge difference for that person.
So it's relative to the baseline of where the person's
coming at. But it seems that the recommendations are really
landing as far as sort of optimal exercise levels between
one hundred and fifty and three hundred minutes of moderate
level activity and that's kind of like you know, brisk walking,
(08:04):
light jogging would be kind of considered moderate cycling, that
would be swimming. Those are sort of moderate type exercises.
When you start doing a little bit more high intensity
activity where you know it's it's longer distance running or
higher speed running and or you know, hiking in the
(08:25):
hills with weights on or doing fast biking that kind
of thing, then the duration can be a little shorter
because you're getting more intense exercise. So that's sort of
in the aerobic exercise front. And then if we're looking
at the that's sort of more endurance type work, but
which is really good as a base to get. And
then the other really strong recommendation that's been coming in
(08:49):
more and more is to incorporate resistance type work weightlifting
or you know, things that help with strength training, and
to do that ideally at least a couple of times
a week where there's a bit more intensity and it's
more focused on strength gain. And it's actually it's actually
more beneficial from the bones in many ways too, So
(09:12):
it's a mix of the endurance but also and having
that strength training to and ideally at least getting one
hundred and fifty minutes, but you start to get even
greater improvements right up to three hundred minutes. Beyond that,
it starts to plateau, it seems, but there's not really
a well, there is an upper limit, I guess, but
most of us aren't really worried about that.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Right, Okay, good, So that's helpful. Basically, the one hundred
and fifty minutes is equivalent to that half an hour
walk five days a week, so that's well, continues to
be a well researched number. But the important thing you
said is that it's up to three hundred so more
is actually better if people are in a place where
(09:57):
they're fit enough to do that. And I think that's
an important take away there. And what about so we're
talking about prevention, what about people who are already diagnosed
and their undergoing treatment. Give us a little bit of
a synopsis in terms of the value of exercise during
oncology treatment.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah, there's pretty much every kind of cancer treatment that
someone would be looking at. Whether it's surgical, radiation therapy, chemotherapy,
even targeted therapy and immunotherapy and hormonal therapy, all of
these are going to respond. The body is probably going
to respond better when exercise is part of the mix,
(10:37):
and those effects can be quite interesting and different dependent
on the type of therapy. So for surgery, for example,
people who are deconditioned prior to surgery, their outcomes are worse,
and that is in terms of duration of the hospital stay,
higher likelihood for adverse events during surgery, less more time
(11:01):
to recover, and more immune depletion as well that can
occur of following that. So there seems to be that
you know, conditioning prior to surgery really prepares you more
effectively for the surgery, leads you to have less bad
outcomes from it, You do better, you recover better, and
(11:21):
you lose less muscle mass after the surgery in the
convalescence period where that often can be the case, and
that I think is an important aspect to consider. Long
durations where you're sort of out and not able to
be active have as a real detrimental effect on muscle
mass and long term health, and that becomes particularly important
(11:44):
as we get older as well. So getting conditioned prior
to surgery really wonderful opportunity to get that work started.
And then after surgery to get sort of up and active,
you know, maybe not right at the same place that
you were before, but moving quickly helps to reduce that
that sort of convalescence period. And then with chemotherapy, we
(12:06):
know that people who are have better fitness overall and
are active have less dose reductions in their chemotherapy they
have they're able to tolerate the therapy with less side
effects as well. Uh, and they usually go to completion
of that therapy leading to better outcomes. Uh. So it's uh,
(12:27):
you know, there's there's so many benefits with the the
the resilience factor that you get from fitness. Even things
like chemo brain or cognitive dysfunction that can occur sometimes
with chemotherapy seems to be improved with exercise as well.
And uh, and so there's you know, just in terms
of how one feels through it, and then also the
(12:49):
outcomes those are improved as well. Yeah, and even you know,
survival from from those from that treatment seems to be
proved as well.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah. I mean, it's just kind of doesn't end. So
really made a strong case for exercising to reduce the
risk of cancer and its recurrence. You made a case
for continuing to exercise during treatment. Anything else you want
to say about the value of exercise as a survival technique.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yeah, again. You know, it's not like all the types
of cancer have been studied, but it seems that people
like in the comparison with the observational studies, there appears
to be a range of risk production as far as
mortality goes between like twenty five to seventy percent or
mortality due to the cancer. So you know, we're talking
(13:45):
about big, big effect sizes as far as as far
as the cancer goes. And then even all cause mortality
or overall survival, which is our strongest outcome, is improved
between twenty and forty five percent for all cause mortality
between the people that have the least level of activity
versus the highest level of activity. So this has become
(14:09):
a recommendation from virtually all of the major organizations, All
the credible organizations that are involved in cancer control are
recommending now exercise to be a core part of of
of of the routine, and a recommendation from the oncologist.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
In fact, So let's get a little nerdy for a moment,
and why why does exercise do all this? Like, what
are some of the underlying mechanisms.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yeah, there's there seems to be a lot of those,
and and I'm sure we're going to discover more and
more related to that. But one of the aspects uh
are is metabolic the effects of cancer, sorry, the effects
of exercise and what it does to the metabolism. It
seems to overall use inflammation in the system. It will
(15:03):
improve insulin sensitivity, and for cancers that are responsive to
more sugar in the circulation, more insulin, more insulin like
growth factor, these kind of drivers of cancer growth. In
many cases, all of those seem to be attenuated and
(15:23):
improved when you've got a fitness someone who's fit and
is actively doing exercise. Just the very nature of exerting
and moving your muscles has like an insulin like effect
on the muscles by causing the glute four to migrate
(15:44):
to the surface of the cell, and that's the receptor
that actually draws glucose out of the blood into the
cell and into the muscle in this case, and that's
what insulin will do, but there's no need for insulin.
You just simply need to go for a walk after
a meal and that actually causes this effect to be there.
So you know, it's a wonderful way to be motivated
(16:06):
to go for a walk after the meal as you
know that you're going to drop your blood sugar pretty
quickly and improve your overall insulin sensitivity and metabolic health.
So that's a big one. Immune function seems to be improved.
There seems to be an activation of natural killer cells.
There's more activation of the t lymphocytes that the immune
(16:29):
cells that are involved in cancer control are moved through
the circulation. They may even cause tumors that are considered
to be sort of cold, if you will, or not
immune active, to be a little bit more immune active perhaps.
So it's circulating things in the body and it causing
greater activity from an immunosurveillance standpoint. And one other aspect
(16:55):
that I find just super fascinating is the mechanical effects
of exercise alone seems to have a destructive effect on
circulating tumor cells cancer cells in circulation that may lead
to you know, metastases that can occur, which is what
we really don't want with cancer. But by by causing
(17:18):
sort of higher blood pressure and higher flow of blood
through the system that has a like literally a destructive
effect on these cells in circulation, possibly by removing things
that cluster around them, like platelets or the clumping of
these cells, but also literally by just simply having that
destructive force, and that's being shown in in vitro models
(17:42):
and it's been it's been retested in vivo in humans
showing that there is that viability. These cells are reduced
immediately post exercise. So it's it's an interesting one. Hopefully
we'll see more research on that. But to me, it's like,
you know, a direct anti cancer therapy. You go for exercise,
particularly when you get your blood flowing a little bit
(18:03):
higher and more intensive exercise, you're having a direct toxic
effect on cancer cells.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, it's kind of amazing and that makes me think too.
You know, there's more and more research going around or
coming up now around the timing of sort of the
activity of tumors and when tumors are most active and
when the immune system is most active, and there seems
to be sort of a differential effect in terms of
(18:32):
the timing of exercise, and I'm wondering if you and
your research have come to any conclusions, because I've actually
read the articles that state the very opposite, its best
exercise in the morning, and then I've read other research
which says actually it's best exercise at night. So I'm
wondering what you think.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, that's a good question. You kind of got me
a little stumped on that because I don't have a
good answer for you. The depth of the inquirer, I
love it, and I'm going to be looking into that
a little bit more after. I don't know, I think
you know. I mean, at the first level, I would say,
I'm sure there probably are some circaining effects of the
(19:12):
benefits of exercise at particular points, and maybe particularly around
say radiation or chemotherapy, there may be some benefits there.
I suspect there's variation between individuals. I'm sure there is
going to be variation. But I think the first thing
is to get people moving is kind of there's no
bad time to do that, and then and more kind
(19:34):
of is usually better. But to be aware of your
limitations and and to do it in a way that
that motivates the self, and that that I think is
key because it's it's not easy to exercise, especially if
you're starting. It kind of feels hard, and you know
it's not. So yeah, I'm going to say that for
(19:57):
level two point zero and we'll come back aga.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I mean, you make a good point. Just like exercise,
whenever you can do it, it's going to be beneficial.
So there are some beliefs that certain people though actually
should not exercise. It's been circulated around that. For example,
people with cancer that spread into their bones. You know,
they have supposedly more brittle bones, so they shouldn't exercise.
(20:23):
People with excessive weight loss or cackexia or people with
lymphedema that's kind of a swelling of the limb. So
maybe just those three, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, great, I'm glad you're asking the questions. So for
the bony metastasies as the first one there there. You know,
there are risks with impact sports and with impact.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Type exercises, but most of the exercise that we do
or not impact, although I would place that there is
a real role for jumping, particularly for women, and for pliometrics,
which causes some impact on the bones to help strengthen bones.
In fact, but if one has a you know, bony
metastases that's clearly identified in the spine or in a
(21:11):
particular you know, peripheral, you know, a bone in one
of the limbs. Then you know, I think some mindfulness
around that makes sense in terms of not causing undue.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Strengths to those bones. However, a progressive stress where you're
putting another weight, you're strengthening the muscles around the bones,
and you're also strengthening the bones by putting pressure on
it is going to be beneficial even for someone with
bony metastases. So it's certainly not a reason not to exercise,
and it will improve all those parameters in the same way.
(21:45):
Just have to be mindful about the type of exercise
that one's doing, and I think getting some advice from
a specialist maybe helpful and just working through a little
bit of that. The lymphidema one is another concern that's
sort of pushed people away from doing exercise, and I
think to the detriment because it really actually it seems
(22:09):
to help lower the risk of lymphedema by having to
buy being fit, by getting circulation through the limbs normally,
if you know, for someone with a breast resection and
an axillary dissection where the lymph nodes of being removed
from the underarm and there's a higher risk for that
arm lymphi dema to really occur. Then I think being
(22:32):
mindful with like repetitive motions of the arm that you
can sort of build up that like more pressure in
the tissue, and therefore it might be a little bit
harder to evacuate that or to drain that. So lifting
the arm after the exercise maybe one strategy. Using compression
garments maybe another being mindful of the effect of the
(22:54):
exercise on that swelling and maybe even taking objective measurements it. Again,
possibly working with a lymphidima specialist who can get fitted
for a compression arm. That's good. But if there's nothing
there and you're doing something you don't feel anything happening.
From a negative standpoint, with the lymphanema, you're probably helping
your risk of lymphan ema. So good, i'd say on
(23:17):
that front, And then with the with the one for kackxia,
And I think even overall, perhaps just the perception within
cancer that we're maybe a little bit more fragile with
a diagnosis and we should be careful about what we do,
and we should you know, rest more and all that
that's really counterproductive. And kackxia itself is a catabolic it's
(23:43):
a wasting process where you know, kind of our tissues
are being are are being lost internally, particularly lean muscle mass,
and as lean muscle mass gets degraded, then you know,
it really has big defermential effects on on long term
outcomes and just what quality of life and so is
(24:06):
not a great thing, but exercise counters that exercise is
in fact anabolic. It will cause the production of lean
muscle mass. It'll will counter that effect. And I think
you know, being well nourished, particularly with protein and calories
while you're exercising and being doing this activity is really important.
But it's the idea that you shouldn't exercise in a
(24:29):
state of kikixia is actually counter productive.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, I mean, it's such an important clarification because I
have quite a few patients who have lost weight and
even to the point where you know, they're considered perhaps
more thin than they would like, but their lean body
mass is actually okay, and they have the energy and
the interest in exercising. So I think it's really important
(24:53):
that those individuals continue to be active, you know, because
it's really going to help their situation overall for sure.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, right down, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Okay, So let's motivate people to do this. So you
you've been studying this, and I'm sure you have this
conversation with your patients quite often. So how do you
motive What are some of your favorite strategies, tips, tricks
to motivate people to exercise?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah, so I really like to ask people what they
like to do from an exercise standpoint, because I think
that's the best place to jump off from. Uh. And
they can they can you know, bring back in something
that they feel confident in their ability to do. And
maybe it was something that they did in high school
or in the university or wherever whenever as a hobby
(25:43):
and they've had an interest but just simply lost the
time and the interest in doing it for whatever reason.
So if they can bring that back in fantastic or
adopt a new exercise that they've always kind of wanted
to get into. Dancing is an amazing one. Good for balance,
good for endurance work, and it's great for the brain.
You know, there's so many benefits and you kind of
(26:03):
don't feel like you're exercising. But so yeah, trying to
find things that people like to do and then to
do it at a point at a level that they
feel confident to do, and then they can get gains
by starting that, and I think really having them schedule
it is just super important.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, yeah, great idea. I mean, I kind of you know,
there's so many books and strategies around habit building, and
I think that you've identified a lot of those, and
really it is just a habit, which I think that
helps people to hear that and to really let that
sink in. It's the hardest part is starting routine. And
(26:47):
once you're in it and that habit is formed, the
feel good stuff happens and it's just part of your routine.
So it's much easier to stick with it. So it's
just that initial hump that's challenge, which I get because
people are tired. Less than you want to do is exercise.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
But you know, yeah, there's often pains at the beginning too,
like people will experience a little bit of setback, and
I think to not be too discouraged by that, but
again to get back on on the routine and not
to be discouraged by by that. So it's like, you know,
if you're someone's quitting smoking, they're going to do it
(27:24):
maybe a few times before they successfully do so, so
it can be a little bit choppy at the beginning,
but yeah, it definitely the habit once it's there really
kind of self supports that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
So in our last couple of minutes, I have two
questions for you. One is, do you advise people to
use trackers to, you know, around their exercise, like wearables
and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Yeah, if they like that. I mean, I personally love
to look at my data for like running. I'm caught
it to be a bit of a you know, maybe
too much so, but it's, uh, I think the things
that help, you know, so you know, getting a pedometer
for steps is a great one trying to achieve a
certain number. So I'm having these objective things can be
(28:07):
I think helpful, but they have to be helpful.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Okay, all right, yeah, good, all right, any final thoughts
you'd like to leave around this topic.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Just be active, Be active.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I like it.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Well I'm with you on this. I think, you know,
this is a really critical strategy and I think you know,
you've made some really important points one of which is
that it's important for people to find something that they
enjoy doing and they can continue to do. And there
are so many different ways of exercising, and exercise can
be a social activity. It can also be time to
(28:42):
just be alone, it can be time out nature. All
of that has benefits for people. And yeah, just getting
that habit in place is so critical. I mean, I
have to say, I've been both of us, you and
I have been longtime exercisers, and I would really be
I get depressed if I don't size, if something prevents
me for several days in a row. So you know
(29:04):
there is danger danger you will become addicted.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Okay, Well this has been a great show. Thank you
doctor Seely for taking time to join me tonight. So
where can our listeners find out more about you and
your work? Can you have any website social media you'd
like to share?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Yeah? Probably the best place, actually it's and it's maybe
a little old school, is the newsletter through the Center
for Health Innovation because we have a lot of we
do a lot of webinars and they're accessible, you know,
at no charge to anyone really around the world. And
so that's at the c h I dot c A
t H E c h I dot c A and
(29:45):
you can just sign up for the newsletter and there's
some there's some resources through there as well. And I
guess I have an Instagram handle it integrated doc eleven.
That's mine. I don't do a lot of posts on
it though.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
All right, good, great, well, thank you, and thank you
again for all that you do for naturopathic and natural healthcare,
specifically in the relevantcology. We owe much to you, and
we also want to thank our sponsors Immuse post biotic
for enhanced community cognizance andicoline to help enhance memory, focus
and attention, doctor Hir's Probiotics award winning pre and probiotic
(30:24):
formulas and pro Thrivers wellness supplements designed specifically for thrivers.
And we want to thank you listener for joining us
and may you experience joy, laughter, love, and exercise. It's
time to thrive. Everyone, have a great night.
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello, Welcome to five to Thrive Live, a podcast about
thriving for those who have been affected by cancer and
chronic disease on Doctor Lisa Schuler and I co host
this podcast with Carolyn Gazella. You can find all of
our past shows on any major podcast outlet and a
schedule on ithriveplan dot com. And tonight, I'm very excited
(01:01):
to be talking with my colleague and friend, doctor Dougold Sealy.
We're going to be talking about exercise and some new
findings around exercise, some nuances, shall we say, about exercise,
particularly within the realm of a cancer diagnosis. So we're
going to learn about some of the latest research and
we're going to also get very practical and talk about
(01:24):
some strategies. Doctor Dougold Celi is a natropathic doctor who
runs the Center for Health Innovation, a large multidisciplinary clinic
in Ottawa. He's also the executive director for the Patterson
Institute for Integrative Oncology Research with the Canadian College of
Nature Pathic Medicine. Doctor Ceely has been awarded over twelve
(01:44):
million dollars in support of clinical and synthesis research and
has published over one hundred peer reviewed papers and book chapters.
Doctor Seely was a previous president with the Oncology Association
of Nature Pathic Physicians and a recipient of the esteemed
and prestigious Doctor Rogers Prize. So he'll come and join
(02:06):
us in just a sec But before we start the
conversation with doctor Ceelia, I want to thank our sponsors. First,
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and you can learn more at doctor Orhira Probiotics dot com. Well, hello, Doogled,
welcome to five to Thrive Live.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Hi. Lee's really great to be on with you.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Again, indeed, and I'm excited to be talking about this
because I have long said, well, you know what changes,
But I would say pretty consistently I've said if I
was left with one strategy on my desert island for
preventing cancer, it would be exercise. It kind of is
in battle with stress release. But I think exercise is
(03:51):
really really important, and I think you do too. So
let's start. What are some of the broad benefits of exercise, Like, basically,
why is it good for all of us?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. It's hard to
think of something that isn't kind of improved by exercise.
So as far as medicine goes from a panacea standpoint,
the exercise is probably one of the closest things to that.
I think. You know, we all know about exercise being beneficial,
(04:23):
just like we know that eating our fruits and vegetables
in particular are useful. So it kind of gets lost
in that certainty that everyone knows. But I think that
is a bit of a sad thing because it's just
so potent in terms of its effects. But everything from
cardiovascular disease risk, blood sugar management, diabetes, stroke risk, dementia risk,
(04:45):
cancer risk, you know, all kinds of things benefit from exercise,
and in particular just how we feel about our lives,
I would say, and how we feel in general.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, I mean that's kind of the amazing thing. It's
hard for people who aren't well, we're going to get
to strategies for people who are having trouble starting a
regular exercise routine. But once you start, you feel so
much better and you're getting all those benefits, which is
kind of unusual in terms of strategy. So that's a
that's a big plus. So what about cancer? Is there
(05:16):
a specific cancer preventive effect from exercise? And maybe you
can give us a little bit of nuance into this,
like what kind of exercise is most beneficial and what type,
you know, what frequency, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Yeah, so I think in terms of cancer risk prevention,
the primary prevention piece, there's clearly benefits with respect to
having a regularity with exercise to reduce the risk of
most cancers. And you know, most of the big cancer
types breast, coorectal, along you know, endometrial, even ovariant, they've
(05:54):
been studied for this more so than the more rare
cancers because they just inherently get more research. And there's
clearly a preventative benefit by having physical activity to reduce
the risk. Admit that may be up to about a
third of a risk reduction from that standpoint, and then
(06:14):
it sort of applies as well when we're looking at
secondary prevention, the prevention of recurrence of risk coming back.
There's some really there's some good growing evidence around the
ability of exercise to reduce that. Most of this evidence
is coming from observational studies, so there's you know, there's
some there's some biases and there's some limitations with interpretation
(06:37):
of that data. But just like we understood from observational
data that's smoking is a clear risk factor for cancer,
and that's basically proven beyond a doubt without an a
randomized clinical trial, I think we're kind of at that
same place when it comes to exercise now as well.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And when you say exercise, like be more specific if
you will, because I think this is something that people,
you know, there's some confusion, partly because this all started
with this thirty minutes of moderate pace walking five days
a week, and that's kind of become the line or
almost synonymous with exercise in terms of cancer prevention. But
(07:16):
is that really the best or you know, tell us
what you've learned.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yeah, I think it's always relative to the person in
terms of the benefits that they achieve. So someone who
is pretty much said and Terry isn't doing very much
is you know, maybe overweight or not either, but simply
is not being very active, not even really walking much.
Then you know, just walking a few times a week
(07:42):
for short distances will make a huge difference for that person.
So it's relative to the baseline of where the person's
coming at. But it seems that the recommendations are really
landing as far as sort of optimal exercise levels between
one hundred and fifty and three hundred minutes of moderate
level activity and that's kind of like you know, brisk walking,
(08:04):
light jogging would be kind of considered moderate cycling, that
would be swimming. Those are sort of moderate type exercises.
When you start doing a little bit more high intensity
activity where you know it's it's longer distance running or
higher speed running and or you know, hiking in the
(08:25):
hills with weights on or doing fast biking that kind
of thing, then the duration can be a little shorter
because you're getting more intense exercise. So that's sort of
in the aerobic exercise front. And then if we're looking
at the that's sort of more endurance type work, but
which is really good as a base to get. And
then the other really strong recommendation that's been coming in
(08:49):
more and more is to incorporate resistance type work weightlifting
or you know, things that help with strength training, and
to do that ideally at least a couple of times
a week where there's a bit more intensity and it's
more focused on strength gain. And it's actually it's actually
more beneficial from the bones in many ways too, So
(09:12):
it's a mix of the endurance but also and having
that strength training to and ideally at least getting one
hundred and fifty minutes, but you start to get even
greater improvements right up to three hundred minutes. Beyond that,
it starts to plateau, it seems, but there's not really
a well, there is an upper limit, I guess, but
most of us aren't really worried about that.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Right, Okay, good, So that's helpful. Basically, the one hundred
and fifty minutes is equivalent to that half an hour
walk five days a week, so that's well, continues to
be a well researched number. But the important thing you
said is that it's up to three hundred so more
is actually better if people are in a place where
(09:57):
they're fit enough to do that. And I think that's
an important take away there. And what about so we're
talking about prevention, what about people who are already diagnosed
and their undergoing treatment. Give us a little bit of
a synopsis in terms of the value of exercise during
oncology treatment.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah, there's pretty much every kind of cancer treatment that
someone would be looking at. Whether it's surgical, radiation therapy, chemotherapy,
even targeted therapy and immunotherapy and hormonal therapy, all of
these are going to respond. The body is probably going
to respond better when exercise is part of the mix,
(10:37):
and those effects can be quite interesting and different dependent
on the type of therapy. So for surgery, for example,
people who are deconditioned prior to surgery, their outcomes are worse,
and that is in terms of duration of the hospital stay,
higher likelihood for adverse events during surgery, less more time
(11:01):
to recover, and more immune depletion as well that can
occur of following that. So there seems to be that
you know, conditioning prior to surgery really prepares you more
effectively for the surgery, leads you to have less bad
outcomes from it, You do better, you recover better, and
(11:21):
you lose less muscle mass after the surgery in the
convalescence period where that often can be the case, and
that I think is an important aspect to consider. Long
durations where you're sort of out and not able to
be active have as a real detrimental effect on muscle
mass and long term health, and that becomes particularly important
(11:44):
as we get older as well. So getting conditioned prior
to surgery really wonderful opportunity to get that work started.
And then after surgery to get sort of up and active,
you know, maybe not right at the same place that
you were before, but moving quickly helps to reduce that
that sort of convalescence period. And then with chemotherapy, we
(12:06):
know that people who are have better fitness overall and
are active have less dose reductions in their chemotherapy they
have they're able to tolerate the therapy with less side
effects as well. Uh, and they usually go to completion
of that therapy leading to better outcomes. Uh. So it's uh,
(12:27):
you know, there's there's so many benefits with the the
the resilience factor that you get from fitness. Even things
like chemo brain or cognitive dysfunction that can occur sometimes
with chemotherapy seems to be improved with exercise as well.
And uh, and so there's you know, just in terms
of how one feels through it, and then also the
(12:49):
outcomes those are improved as well. Yeah, and even you know,
survival from from those from that treatment seems to be
proved as well.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah. I mean, it's just kind of doesn't end. So
really made a strong case for exercising to reduce the
risk of cancer and its recurrence. You made a case
for continuing to exercise during treatment. Anything else you want
to say about the value of exercise as a survival technique.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yeah, again. You know, it's not like all the types
of cancer have been studied, but it seems that people
like in the comparison with the observational studies, there appears
to be a range of risk production as far as
mortality goes between like twenty five to seventy percent or
mortality due to the cancer. So you know, we're talking
(13:45):
about big, big effect sizes as far as as far
as the cancer goes. And then even all cause mortality
or overall survival, which is our strongest outcome, is improved
between twenty and forty five percent for all cause mortality
between the people that have the least level of activity
versus the highest level of activity. So this has become
(14:09):
a recommendation from virtually all of the major organizations, All
the credible organizations that are involved in cancer control are
recommending now exercise to be a core part of of
of of the routine, and a recommendation from the oncologist.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
In fact, So let's get a little nerdy for a moment,
and why why does exercise do all this? Like, what
are some of the underlying mechanisms.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yeah, there's there seems to be a lot of those,
and and I'm sure we're going to discover more and
more related to that. But one of the aspects uh
are is metabolic the effects of cancer, sorry, the effects
of exercise and what it does to the metabolism. It
seems to overall use inflammation in the system. It will
(15:03):
improve insulin sensitivity, and for cancers that are responsive to
more sugar in the circulation, more insulin, more insulin like
growth factor, these kind of drivers of cancer growth. In
many cases, all of those seem to be attenuated and
(15:23):
improved when you've got a fitness someone who's fit and
is actively doing exercise. Just the very nature of exerting
and moving your muscles has like an insulin like effect
on the muscles by causing the glute four to migrate
(15:44):
to the surface of the cell, and that's the receptor
that actually draws glucose out of the blood into the
cell and into the muscle in this case, and that's
what insulin will do, but there's no need for insulin.
You just simply need to go for a walk after
a meal and that actually causes this effect to be there.
So you know, it's a wonderful way to be motivated
(16:06):
to go for a walk after the meal as you
know that you're going to drop your blood sugar pretty
quickly and improve your overall insulin sensitivity and metabolic health.
So that's a big one. Immune function seems to be improved.
There seems to be an activation of natural killer cells.
There's more activation of the t lymphocytes that the immune
(16:29):
cells that are involved in cancer control are moved through
the circulation. They may even cause tumors that are considered
to be sort of cold, if you will, or not
immune active, to be a little bit more immune active perhaps.
So it's circulating things in the body and it causing
greater activity from an immunosurveillance standpoint. And one other aspect
(16:55):
that I find just super fascinating is the mechanical effects
of exercise alone seems to have a destructive effect on
circulating tumor cells cancer cells in circulation that may lead
to you know, metastases that can occur, which is what
we really don't want with cancer. But by by causing
(17:18):
sort of higher blood pressure and higher flow of blood
through the system that has a like literally a destructive
effect on these cells in circulation, possibly by removing things
that cluster around them, like platelets or the clumping of
these cells, but also literally by just simply having that
destructive force, and that's being shown in in vitro models
(17:42):
and it's been it's been retested in vivo in humans
showing that there is that viability. These cells are reduced
immediately post exercise. So it's it's an interesting one. Hopefully
we'll see more research on that. But to me, it's like,
you know, a direct anti cancer therapy. You go for exercise,
particularly when you get your blood flowing a little bit
(18:03):
higher and more intensive exercise, you're having a direct toxic
effect on cancer cells.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, it's kind of amazing and that makes me think too.
You know, there's more and more research going around or
coming up now around the timing of sort of the
activity of tumors and when tumors are most active and
when the immune system is most active, and there seems
to be sort of a differential effect in terms of
(18:32):
the timing of exercise, and I'm wondering if you and
your research have come to any conclusions, because I've actually
read the articles that state the very opposite, its best
exercise in the morning, and then I've read other research
which says actually it's best exercise at night. So I'm
wondering what you think.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, that's a good question. You kind of got me
a little stumped on that because I don't have a
good answer for you. The depth of the inquirer, I
love it, and I'm going to be looking into that
a little bit more after. I don't know, I think
you know. I mean, at the first level, I would say,
I'm sure there probably are some circaining effects of the
(19:12):
benefits of exercise at particular points, and maybe particularly around
say radiation or chemotherapy, there may be some benefits there.
I suspect there's variation between individuals. I'm sure there is
going to be variation. But I think the first thing
is to get people moving is kind of there's no
bad time to do that, and then and more kind
(19:34):
of is usually better. But to be aware of your
limitations and and to do it in a way that
that motivates the self, and that that I think is
key because it's it's not easy to exercise, especially if
you're starting. It kind of feels hard, and you know
it's not. So yeah, I'm going to say that for
(19:57):
level two point zero and we'll come back aga.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I mean, you make a good point. Just like exercise,
whenever you can do it, it's going to be beneficial.
So there are some beliefs that certain people though actually
should not exercise. It's been circulated around that. For example,
people with cancer that spread into their bones. You know,
they have supposedly more brittle bones, so they shouldn't exercise.
(20:23):
People with excessive weight loss or cackexia or people with
lymphedema that's kind of a swelling of the limb. So
maybe just those three, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, great, I'm glad you're asking the questions. So for
the bony metastasies as the first one there there. You know,
there are risks with impact sports and with impact.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Type exercises, but most of the exercise that we do
or not impact, although I would place that there is
a real role for jumping, particularly for women, and for pliometrics,
which causes some impact on the bones to help strengthen bones.
In fact, but if one has a you know, bony
metastases that's clearly identified in the spine or in a
(21:11):
particular you know, peripheral, you know, a bone in one
of the limbs. Then you know, I think some mindfulness
around that makes sense in terms of not causing undue.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Strengths to those bones. However, a progressive stress where you're
putting another weight, you're strengthening the muscles around the bones,
and you're also strengthening the bones by putting pressure on
it is going to be beneficial even for someone with
bony metastases. So it's certainly not a reason not to exercise,
and it will improve all those parameters in the same way.
(21:45):
Just have to be mindful about the type of exercise
that one's doing, and I think getting some advice from
a specialist maybe helpful and just working through a little
bit of that. The lymphidema one is another concern that's
sort of pushed people away from doing exercise, and I
think to the detriment because it really actually it seems
(22:09):
to help lower the risk of lymphedema by having to
buy being fit, by getting circulation through the limbs normally,
if you know, for someone with a breast resection and
an axillary dissection where the lymph nodes of being removed
from the underarm and there's a higher risk for that
arm lymphi dema to really occur. Then I think being
(22:32):
mindful with like repetitive motions of the arm that you
can sort of build up that like more pressure in
the tissue, and therefore it might be a little bit
harder to evacuate that or to drain that. So lifting
the arm after the exercise maybe one strategy. Using compression
garments maybe another being mindful of the effect of the
(22:54):
exercise on that swelling and maybe even taking objective measurements it. Again,
possibly working with a lymphidima specialist who can get fitted
for a compression arm. That's good. But if there's nothing
there and you're doing something you don't feel anything happening.
From a negative standpoint, with the lymphanema, you're probably helping
your risk of lymphan ema. So good, i'd say on
(23:17):
that front, And then with the with the one for kackxia,
And I think even overall, perhaps just the perception within
cancer that we're maybe a little bit more fragile with
a diagnosis and we should be careful about what we do,
and we should you know, rest more and all that
that's really counterproductive. And kackxia itself is a catabolic it's
(23:43):
a wasting process where you know, kind of our tissues
are being are are being lost internally, particularly lean muscle mass,
and as lean muscle mass gets degraded, then you know,
it really has big defermential effects on on long term
outcomes and just what quality of life and so is
(24:06):
not a great thing, but exercise counters that exercise is
in fact anabolic. It will cause the production of lean
muscle mass. It'll will counter that effect. And I think
you know, being well nourished, particularly with protein and calories
while you're exercising and being doing this activity is really important.
But it's the idea that you shouldn't exercise in a
(24:29):
state of kikixia is actually counter productive.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, I mean, it's such an important clarification because I
have quite a few patients who have lost weight and
even to the point where you know, they're considered perhaps
more thin than they would like, but their lean body
mass is actually okay, and they have the energy and
the interest in exercising. So I think it's really important
(24:53):
that those individuals continue to be active, you know, because
it's really going to help their situation overall for sure.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, right down, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Okay, So let's motivate people to do this. So you
you've been studying this, and I'm sure you have this
conversation with your patients quite often. So how do you
motive What are some of your favorite strategies, tips, tricks
to motivate people to exercise?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah, so I really like to ask people what they
like to do from an exercise standpoint, because I think
that's the best place to jump off from. Uh. And
they can they can you know, bring back in something
that they feel confident in their ability to do. And
maybe it was something that they did in high school
or in the university or wherever whenever as a hobby
(25:43):
and they've had an interest but just simply lost the
time and the interest in doing it for whatever reason.
So if they can bring that back in fantastic or
adopt a new exercise that they've always kind of wanted
to get into. Dancing is an amazing one. Good for balance,
good for endurance work, and it's great for the brain.
You know, there's so many benefits and you kind of
(26:03):
don't feel like you're exercising. But so yeah, trying to
find things that people like to do and then to
do it at a point at a level that they
feel confident to do, and then they can get gains
by starting that, and I think really having them schedule
it is just super important.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, yeah, great idea. I mean, I kind of you know,
there's so many books and strategies around habit building, and
I think that you've identified a lot of those, and
really it is just a habit, which I think that
helps people to hear that and to really let that
sink in. It's the hardest part is starting routine. And
(26:47):
once you're in it and that habit is formed, the
feel good stuff happens and it's just part of your routine.
So it's much easier to stick with it. So it's
just that initial hump that's challenge, which I get because
people are tired. Less than you want to do is exercise.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
But you know, yeah, there's often pains at the beginning too,
like people will experience a little bit of setback, and
I think to not be too discouraged by that, but
again to get back on on the routine and not
to be discouraged by by that. So it's like, you know,
if you're someone's quitting smoking, they're going to do it
(27:24):
maybe a few times before they successfully do so, so
it can be a little bit choppy at the beginning,
but yeah, it definitely the habit once it's there really
kind of self supports that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
So in our last couple of minutes, I have two
questions for you. One is, do you advise people to
use trackers to, you know, around their exercise, like wearables
and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Yeah, if they like that. I mean, I personally love
to look at my data for like running. I'm caught
it to be a bit of a you know, maybe
too much so, but it's, uh, I think the things
that help, you know, so you know, getting a pedometer
for steps is a great one trying to achieve a
certain number. So I'm having these objective things can be
(28:07):
I think helpful, but they have to be helpful.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Okay, all right, yeah, good, all right, any final thoughts
you'd like to leave around this topic.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Just be active, Be active.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I like it.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Well I'm with you on this. I think, you know,
this is a really critical strategy and I think you know,
you've made some really important points one of which is
that it's important for people to find something that they
enjoy doing and they can continue to do. And there
are so many different ways of exercising, and exercise can
be a social activity. It can also be time to
(28:42):
just be alone, it can be time out nature. All
of that has benefits for people. And yeah, just getting
that habit in place is so critical. I mean, I
have to say, I've been both of us, you and
I have been longtime exercisers, and I would really be
I get depressed if I don't size, if something prevents
me for several days in a row. So you know
(29:04):
there is danger danger you will become addicted.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Okay, Well this has been a great show. Thank you
doctor Seely for taking time to join me tonight. So
where can our listeners find out more about you and
your work? Can you have any website social media you'd
like to share?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Yeah? Probably the best place, actually it's and it's maybe
a little old school, is the newsletter through the Center
for Health Innovation because we have a lot of we
do a lot of webinars and they're accessible, you know,
at no charge to anyone really around the world. And
so that's at the c h I dot c A
t H E c h I dot c A and
(29:45):
you can just sign up for the newsletter and there's
some there's some resources through there as well. And I
guess I have an Instagram handle it integrated doc eleven.
That's mine. I don't do a lot of posts on
it though.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
All right, good, great, well, thank you, and thank you
again for all that you do for naturopathic and natural healthcare,
specifically in the relevantcology. We owe much to you, and
we also want to thank our sponsors Immuse post biotic
for enhanced community cognizance andicoline to help enhance memory, focus
and attention, doctor Hir's Probiotics award winning pre and probiotic
(30:24):
formulas and pro Thrivers wellness supplements designed specifically for thrivers.
And we want to thank you listener for joining us
and may you experience joy, laughter, love, and exercise. It's
time to thrive. Everyone, have a great night.
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