November 5, 2024 • 27 mins
Did you know that the health of your gut can influence how you handle stress? On this show, Karolyn talks with neuroscientist and gut health expert Arpana Church, PhD, about her fascinating research regarding the gut-stress connection. Dr. Church describes how the health of your gut can help you be more resilient when it comes to managing stress. She'll also discuss ways to enhance gut health. As the holiday season approaches, this is a perfect topic!
Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
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Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Five To Thrive Live Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello everyone, then, welcome to five to Thrive Live. I'm
Carolyn Gazella and I co host this show with my
good friend, doctor Lisa O'schuler. Okay, I'll admit it, I'm
obsessed with our topic today. We'll be talking about the gut,
brain access, and more specifically, how the health of the
gut can influence how we handle stress. It's just fascinating stuff.
(01:04):
But before we dive in, I'd like to thank our sponsors.
Beginning with Amuse, a unique, patented post biotic that gives
your immune system a key advantage. Ammuse is an ingredient
in many immune supporting dietary supplements. Look for Amuse on
the label or go to immusehealth dot com for more information.
Also cognizance citacholine, which is nature's way of keeping the
(01:24):
brain's energy producing centers firing on all cylinders. If you're
looking for a way to enhance your brain function, including memory,
focus and attention. Look for Cognizant on the label or
go to Cognizan dot com for more information. Prothriver's Wellness
Brain is a product that contains Cognizant as well as
other brain supporting nutrients and herbs. You can find Prothriver's
(01:45):
Wellness Brain online at pure formulas dot com. There's also
Prothriver's Wellness Sleep, which combines higher dose melatonin and other
sleep supporting natural ingredients specifically designed for thrivers. You can
find Prothrivers Wellness Sleep also at pure formulas dot com.
And doctorhire is Probiotics. It's a best selling probiotic for
(02:06):
more than thirty years, and it contains twelve probotic strains
that our shelf stable so no refrigeration is required because
of a unique three year fermentation process. It's a very
effective probiotic. Learn more at doctor Ohira probiotics dot com.
Well I have the perfect guest for our topic today.
Doctor Arpana Church is a neuroscientist, researcher, and microbiome expert.
(02:30):
She is the co director of the Goodman Luskin Microbiome
Center at the UCLA School of Medicine. Doctor Church, Welcome
to the show.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Well, thank you for having me. You know, I love
talking about poop.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I love you. Yeah, but before we dig in, tell
us a little bit more about the work you're doing
at UCLA.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Well, let me take you back. First of all, So
I was actually born and raised in Africa, and I
was always surrounded by stress, whether it's experiences of discrimination
or apartheid, socio economic stress. And it really made me
wonder what it was about this environment, the stressful environment,
and what it was doing to our health, whether we're
(03:15):
talking about mental or physical, and to our health in general.
And so that's why I really was drawn to this
whole concept of stress, because it's just inevitable. It's an
inevitable part of our life, whether you're living in Africa,
whether you're living in America. As you know, Americans report
seventy seven percent of Americans report physical symptoms caused by stress.
(03:39):
So it's definitely a pervasive and prevalent topic.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, absolutely so. And I love the fact that you're
a microbiome expert and you're connecting the gut with stress.
So it seems like I'm consistently reading about how the
gut is connected to something, or I should say everything.
Why does our gut health have so much influence on
(04:04):
so many other organs and functions in the human body.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah, well, let me first of all try to link
it to stress. You know, so when we think about stress,
we immediately go to the brain or to the mind.
We often think in medicine that means like we're kind
of you know, siloing the brain from different organs. Or
when you think about cardiology or prominology, you go to
(04:29):
the heart or the lung, and we don't think about
other parts. And really in when we when you look
at it, everything's interconnected. Not only are our body parts interconnected,
but we're also connected to the environment. And the brain
used to be known as this CPU, or it still
is the CPU, and it influences the whole body and
(04:50):
maybe even controls it. But the gut is often referred
to as that second brain due to its profound influence
on various body symptoms, including the brain, the immune system,
and even mental health. And there's several reasons why gut
health has such far reaching effects. If we just put
(05:11):
it simply, the gut plays a huge role in keeping
the rest of the body healthy because it's deeply connected
to almost everything going on inside you. So it's linked
to the brain. It's talking to the brain at all times.
I mean, I like to say that the gut and
the brain are BFFs, constantly sending messages to each other,
(05:31):
this cyclical, bidirectional kind of communication. It's talking to our
immune system. In fact, if you think about it's seventy
percent of your immune system actually lives in your gut.
Your gut is wing to break down food. So the
food that you eat, the vitamins and minerals and energy,
everything that your body needs is really highly dependent upon
(05:53):
the gut. And then it's also linked to inflammation. So
if the gut isn't healthy, it can leak bad stuff
into your body, triggering inflammation. And this is like your
body's alarm system going off, and it can lead to
problems everywhere from your skin to your heart to your joints.
And then the gut is also a hormone balancer, so
(06:16):
your gut helps regulate hormones. It influences things like stress levels,
how hungry you are, even your mood swings. I also
like to say that the gut is a detox system.
It helps get rid of waste and toxins. It's linked
to your skin. So a lot of people think like,
(06:36):
oh my god, I have exema. It's something totally you know,
unrelated to my gut, But it could be related to
your gut as well. Any kind of inflammation going on
in the gut could end up, you know, manifesting in
your skin. And believe it or not, the health of
your heart is also connected to your gut. So in short,
(06:56):
your gut is like the control center for your body.
If it's not working well, it can throw off all
kinds of important systems, from how you feel mentally, to
how your body fights disease, to how your skin looks
and more. And that's why keeping your gut healthy is
so important for your overall well being.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah. I love the fact that the gut and the
brain are BFFs. That's a great that's a good one.
So before we talk about how to have a healthy gut,
when I read your paper on the gut stress connection,
I just found that study to be so fascinating. So
tell us about that study. What was the objective of
(07:36):
that research. What did you set out to discover that
with that study.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, like I've mentioned, you know before, we Americans, we
experience a lot of stress. In fact, we end up
not going to work or have health related costs that
are really astronomical. And it all really comes down to stress.
And when we think about stress, it's linked to on
out a progression of disease, whether it's mental anxiety, depression,
(08:04):
or even physical health physical disease like cardiovascular disease or obesity.
And it affects everybody. So you could be a kid,
You could be a baby. Think about a baby crying
in a crib, or you could be a child on
a playground being bullied or having to do homework, making friends.
You could be an adult trying to make money. So
(08:25):
stress is just such a prevalent part. But you know,
as scientists and as physicians, we tend to focus on
the negative. We're always thinking about, well, how do we
cure this disease, How do we find a treatment for
this disease? And I wanted to flip the coin, and
I wanted to look at the other side of things. Now,
(08:47):
how is it that people who despite experiencing stress farewell.
What is it about these individuals that are so different
or special? And this actually gave I think can give
us an sites in two treatments and prevention strategies. So
this is really what the impetus was behind the study.
So we recruited over one hundred and sixteen adult individuals
(09:11):
there were anywhere from the ages of eighteen to sixty,
and we administered a resilient scale, which is known as
the Connor Davidson Resilience Scale, which is really a ten
items scale. It measures things like positive acceptance of change,
tolerance of negative affect, tenacity, and the ability to recover
after stressful events. And it's these ten items really measure
(09:36):
resilience on five main factors. One is personal competence, so
high standards and tenacity. Two is trust in one's instincts,
so tolerance of this like negative kind of affect, strengthening
effects of stress. Three is positive acceptance of change and
secure relationships, and four is sense of control and five
(10:00):
tree spiritual influences. So we not only measured resilience, so
this psychological resilience against stress, but we also measured other
aspects like clinical and behavior measures. So we gave them
questionnaires on anxiety, depression, cognitive functioning. Then we put them
in the scanner in an MRI scanner, and we looked
(10:21):
at their brain, and we wanted to look at the
structure and the connectivity of these different brain regions, and
then we collected their stool in order to look at
the microbiome, the abundance and the function of the microbiome.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, that's I mean the fact that you were so thorough.
You looked at the microbiome, you looked at the brain function,
and then you had this resilience test. So what did
you find out? What were some of the conclusions that
you were able to come to.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Right, So if we look at just the brain, we
see that there were certain features or functions that were
related to improve emotional regulation and cognition. What do I
mean by that? Think of yourself as you're driving in
a car and somebody just comes in front of you
road rage, just cuts you off, and you can see
(11:14):
you can feel yourself getting really angry, so you slam
on the brakes. Now, if your brakes are working really well,
your car will stop and you'll be like, Okay, thank god, Okay,
that was a close call. You calm down and you
move on. Right, It's the same thing. So those brakes
in the brain were working really well in these highly
resiliant individuals. What we also saw at the gut level,
(11:38):
or the microbiome level, was that it was it had
like a microbial signature that was linked to reduced inflammation.
And remember before I talked about how the gut is
related to inflammation. Seventy percent of your inflammatory signals are
in your gut. So these highly resilient individuals had reduced inflammation.
(11:58):
They had bacterials natures that were related to gut veryer integrity.
The way I like to describe that is when you're
thinking about a white picket fence. Those that glue that
that you know, joins those wooden bars together on a
white picket fence, That's what the microbiome is doing. It
(12:19):
means that that Verrier integrity is intact. Nothing that's supposed
to go out, that's not supposed to go out is
going out. It just basically keeps everything where it's supposed
to be. We also saw on a behavioral level that
these individuals had high extraversion. They were more mindful, they
had less perceived stress, and less neuroticism, less anxiety depression.
(12:44):
But what was so interesting was that these individuals were
really very open minded, very non judgmental, very easy going,
just kind of happy, go lucky individuals.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Is just fascinating to me. So when you're talking about
you're talking about leaky gut dyspiosis. We talk about that
a lot on this show. So basically, you're saying that
the people with a healthy gut that didn't have the
leaky gut or dyspiosis, those people were more resilient, open minded,
(13:19):
And I just feel that that's just fascinating. So is
the conclusion that if you have a healthy gut, your
mental health will fare better as well.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yes, of the part of that is correct. So you
also have to have high resilience. Remember that Connor Davidson
resilience scale, So we were looking at individuals who scored
high on this resilient scale compared to individuals who scored low.
So the individuals who were high on resilience, the psychological
(13:54):
resilience to stress, had less leaky gut, had less information,
and less anxiety and depression. And we're you know, non judgmental,
more open going, more mindful, more grateful, those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, So basically, if you're looking for a stress management technique,
look to the gut. Look to having a healthy gut,
and that's the coolest thing ever. Okay, well, let's dig
in to some ways to have a healthier gut, because
I think, you know, we all want to be more resilient.
(14:33):
And another reason I was drawn to your paper is
I wrote a Psychology Today column about ways to become
more resilient. So I really feel that you know this
is this is something that you can learn. And now
you're telling us that a healthy gut will help people
cope with stress better as well. So very very cool stuff.
(14:54):
So if you were to make a list of ways
to positively influence gut health, what would be at the
top of the list. And I realize that's probably an
unfair question, but I'm going to ask you anyway.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah, you know, there are a number of things you
can do. And I think you know, when people usually
ask me these questions, I say, well, you know, there
are a number of ways we know that resilience are
not having resilience affects your brain, affects your gut, and
affect your just your behavior. Right, So clearly you can
(15:30):
target those three things. But since the gut is connected
to everything, it's connected to the brain, it's connected to inflammation, hormones, digestion,
even beautiful skin. Having beautiful skin is connected to your gut.
So maybe the healing the gut makes the most sense.
And I say this because I believe. Yeah, sure you
(15:50):
can heal your brain. You know, it's not that if
you're born with a certain gut micro biome signature, if
you're born with a certain brain signature, you can't heal it.
I think you can heal it. But healing the gut,
I believe is easier and it's faster because what you
do today, how you influence your gut microbiome today, will
have profound impacts on your gut, even within twenty four hours.
(16:14):
And you know, most people when they think about gut
directed therapies, they think about, you know, fecal microbiome transplants
so fmts or what I call crapsules, And really, you know,
craft souls are complicated. They you know, they work in
one disease. They haven't really been shown to be effective
(16:35):
in other areas, and I think they're risky and complicated.
So so then people when they think about gut microbiome,
they think about, oh, probiotics and probiotics, which one should
I take? And of course you're bombarded with all these
probiotics and prebiotics out there, and honestly, it's just it's
just very confusing. The testing hasn't been done. They you
(16:58):
know how much to take, which one to take. It's
just it's just very complicated. It hasn't those tests haven't
been done yet. So I like to say, well, why
go to these capsules, why go to these supplements? Why
not look at diet. It's the one thing that can
impact the gut quicker and easier, it's accessible, it has
(17:22):
therapeutic properties and biochemicals. Why not look at the diet.
It's it's the most influential, influential and easiest way to
impact your gut microbiome is really through your diet. Diet,
and we can support gut brain connection by incorporating a
very balanced and diverse diet that's rich in fiber, probotics,
(17:44):
fermented foods, omica three, fatty acids or antioxidants, while at
the same time minimizing consumption of like things like processed
foods or added sugars or artificial sweeteners, or even excessive
alcohol and antibiotics. And I like to say, it's really
really important to eat a diet that's rich, that's diverse
(18:06):
and fruits and vegetables. It's the best way to support
a healthy gut microbiome. And I always talk about ABC's
always be counting, and I don't mean counting your calories.
What I mean is be counting the number of different,
diverse fruits and vegetables that you're putting in your body
(18:27):
per week. And I usually say thirty per week is
a good number. If you can increase that number, that's great,
but at least starting that with thirty is a great
way to maintain a healthy microbiome. And a lot of
people when I say that, I see their faces change
and they kind of glaze over and they're like, oh, no, no, no,
(18:48):
here comes another fad diet. And I'm not talking about
fat diets. I don't care what diet you eat, but
just by introducing diverse fruits and vegetables is really the
easiest way. And the best example I like to give
is just like a pot of stew. You know, if
you think about it, you're you put in there with potatoes, carrots,
(19:11):
maybe some onions, tomatoes, some kind of herb, some kind
of spice that's already six or five in one meal,
and you know it's it's not as hard as people
think when you're just trying to add something different versus
trying to make people change diets. I don't believe in
changing diets, so that's what I would recommend.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So why is variety or diversity with these fruits and
vegetables so.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Important, Because then you're in so the different fruits and
vegetables are basically the food for the bacteria, for the
good bacteria in your gut. And when you start to
introduce probotic or fermented foods in your gut, you're actually
introducing good bacteria. So you're introducing not only the good
(20:00):
but then you're introducing food that helps that good bacteria
thrive and grow. Think of it as fertilizer for your plants.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, perfect, and I would agree with you. And so
beyond diet, what are some other ways that we can
influence the health of our gut microbiome?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Well, remember I said that the brain and the gut
are BFFs, So you know, you can always do things
to improve your brain health because if you change your brain,
it's going to change your microbiome. So one of the
things other than we've talked about food, we've talked about diet.
We've talked about supplements, you know, things like just being
(20:43):
more mindful, stress reduction, being more grateful, non judgmental, I think,
you know, getting along with people. I also believe it's
so important that we think about the environment we think.
You know, when I say the word environment, I don't
even mean talking about pollutions or you know, things like that.
(21:07):
I'm just talking about the people that you surround yourself
with and the way that you treat people. Being connected
to the people around you. That social connection is so important.
Even your pets, your family members, your kids, your spouses,
your partners, everybody around you, people you work with. All
of that really has a huge impact on your gut, microbiome,
(21:30):
and on your mind of course too. But you know,
so I think that if we can try to do
little things to improve our gut, but if we can
also do little things to improve our mind and our
brain and also our environment and the relationships we have.
People always talk about blue zones, blue zones, blue zones.
Why does blue zones work? Yes, they do eat a
(21:52):
healthy diet, But I think it's more than that. I
think it's the connections that they have, the people that
they surround themselves, with that community, that interconnectedness is really key.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah. I mean it's such a good point because you
mentioned earlier that this is a bi directional relationship, so
it makes sense that it would go both ways. If
you want to enhance brain function, you enhance gut health.
If you want to enhance gut health, you enhance brain function.
I also love the fact I think it was even
in your study where this group of resilient people were
(22:27):
also had more characteristics of kindness and compassion. Am I
getting that right?
Speaker 3 (22:32):
That is correct? And they were more mindful, they were
more extroverted, they were non judgmental. So when we think
about stress, how we're very reactive and we get angry,
you know, maybe that isn't the key to being healthy
and to being happy. Maybe letting things go, maybe just
(22:54):
being a little bit more empathetic. I'm not saying that
we need to be you know, doormats or anything like that.
Is something's going wrong, we shouldn't stand up. I'm not
saying any of that. But just being grateful for what
we have and being more connected and more empathetic and
just kinder human beings, just nicer people, I think would
really I think go a long way and actually help
(23:19):
our health and help medicine more than we even realize.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah. I love the fact that you're a neuroscientist, a researcher,
you know, obviously a PhD. And I love the fact
that you're talking about things like gratitude and kindness and
having this all kind of intertwined into health and health care.
(23:46):
I think it's I think it's brilliant And.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
The biggest thing I would really like to talk about
and to highlight also is social connection. I don't think
we put enough emphasis on social connection. If you think
about it, our surge in general. Dtr Muthy, you know,
talked about the loneliness epidemic. One and two Americans is lonely.
(24:11):
That's half of us, and the huge implications. You know,
he put out a report a couple of years ago
that showed Americans are getting sicker because we're very lonely
isolated individuals.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, it's just even yeah, just so so.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Not only am I advocating that, hey, we shouldn't be
looking at separate organs in our body. Everything is interconnected,
but everything is interconnected on the outside too, and it's
impacting what's going on on the inside. So we really
need to be thinking about our social connections to on
a on a deeper level and the implications that that has.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Oh yeah, the research regarding social isolation and risk of illness,
it's it's growing and it's significant. So from a research
perspective regarding the gut brain access, what more would you
like to see happen in this area in the coming years.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I think the science needs to catch up. I think
we need to be doing more integrated, more collaborative science.
You know, you've mentioned I'm a neuroscientist, so really everything
for me is starts with the brain, right and it's
all downhill from there. But I think that it's just
not only about the brain. The brain is connected to
(25:32):
everything else. We've talked about the gut, the gut to
the brain, the brain to the gut, but also how
everything's connected to our environment are outside. So I'd like
to see more integrated science being done. I'd like to
see more collaborative science being done. And even when we
talk because very focused on gut health and brain gut health,
(25:53):
when we talk about supplements, of course, you know that's
our whole aim of the Good mon Luskin Microbiome Center
is where we're thinking about, Okay, how what does this
mean for treatment or even prevention. I'd like to see
all these supplements. I'm not saying they don't work like
these probotics and probotics. I think they do. I just
think they need to be tested, you know, we need
(26:14):
to better understand the implications, you know, and how it
impacts different diseases and how, and that's what we're trying
to do in the center. And I just think that
science really needs to be where we talk about these
ideas in theory, but I think we now need to
put them in practice and really talk about truly integrated
translational science.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, this is going to be exciting to watch. I mean,
I feel like we're just getting started in this area
and it's just going to be great to see what
comes out of this and what comes out of your
center in terms of future research. I'm excited about it.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Yeah, thank you, I am too. Well.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Thank you again doctor Church for joining me, Thank you
for having me. Well that wraps up this episode of
Five to Thrive Live once again. I'd like to thank
our sponsors pro Thrivers Wellness Sleep Formula, Immuse post biotic
to give your immune system that extra boost. Cotton is
in Cetacolon to help enhance memory, focus and attention, and
(27:19):
doctor Ohiro's award winning shelf staple probiotic. This has been
a great show. May you experience joy, laughter and love.
It's time to thrive everyone, have a great night. Ja
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello everyone, then, welcome to five to Thrive Live. I'm
Carolyn Gazella and I co host this show with my
good friend, doctor Lisa O'schuler. Okay, I'll admit it, I'm
obsessed with our topic today. We'll be talking about the gut,
brain access, and more specifically, how the health of the
gut can influence how we handle stress. It's just fascinating stuff.
(01:04):
But before we dive in, I'd like to thank our sponsors.
Beginning with Amuse, a unique, patented post biotic that gives
your immune system a key advantage. Ammuse is an ingredient
in many immune supporting dietary supplements. Look for Amuse on
the label or go to immusehealth dot com for more information.
Also cognizance citacholine, which is nature's way of keeping the
(01:24):
brain's energy producing centers firing on all cylinders. If you're
looking for a way to enhance your brain function, including memory,
focus and attention. Look for Cognizant on the label or
go to Cognizan dot com for more information. Prothriver's Wellness
Brain is a product that contains Cognizant as well as
other brain supporting nutrients and herbs. You can find Prothriver's
(01:45):
Wellness Brain online at pure formulas dot com. There's also
Prothriver's Wellness Sleep, which combines higher dose melatonin and other
sleep supporting natural ingredients specifically designed for thrivers. You can
find Prothrivers Wellness Sleep also at pure formulas dot com.
And doctorhire is Probiotics. It's a best selling probiotic for
(02:06):
more than thirty years, and it contains twelve probotic strains
that our shelf stable so no refrigeration is required because
of a unique three year fermentation process. It's a very
effective probiotic. Learn more at doctor Ohira probiotics dot com.
Well I have the perfect guest for our topic today.
Doctor Arpana Church is a neuroscientist, researcher, and microbiome expert.
(02:30):
She is the co director of the Goodman Luskin Microbiome
Center at the UCLA School of Medicine. Doctor Church, Welcome
to the show.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Well, thank you for having me. You know, I love
talking about poop.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I love you. Yeah, but before we dig in, tell
us a little bit more about the work you're doing
at UCLA.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Well, let me take you back. First of all, So
I was actually born and raised in Africa, and I
was always surrounded by stress, whether it's experiences of discrimination
or apartheid, socio economic stress. And it really made me
wonder what it was about this environment, the stressful environment,
and what it was doing to our health, whether we're
(03:15):
talking about mental or physical, and to our health in general.
And so that's why I really was drawn to this
whole concept of stress, because it's just inevitable. It's an
inevitable part of our life, whether you're living in Africa,
whether you're living in America. As you know, Americans report
seventy seven percent of Americans report physical symptoms caused by stress.
(03:39):
So it's definitely a pervasive and prevalent topic.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, absolutely so. And I love the fact that you're
a microbiome expert and you're connecting the gut with stress.
So it seems like I'm consistently reading about how the
gut is connected to something, or I should say everything.
Why does our gut health have so much influence on
(04:04):
so many other organs and functions in the human body.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah, well, let me first of all try to link
it to stress. You know, so when we think about stress,
we immediately go to the brain or to the mind.
We often think in medicine that means like we're kind
of you know, siloing the brain from different organs. Or
when you think about cardiology or prominology, you go to
(04:29):
the heart or the lung, and we don't think about
other parts. And really in when we when you look
at it, everything's interconnected. Not only are our body parts interconnected,
but we're also connected to the environment. And the brain
used to be known as this CPU, or it still
is the CPU, and it influences the whole body and
(04:50):
maybe even controls it. But the gut is often referred
to as that second brain due to its profound influence
on various body symptoms, including the brain, the immune system,
and even mental health. And there's several reasons why gut
health has such far reaching effects. If we just put
(05:11):
it simply, the gut plays a huge role in keeping
the rest of the body healthy because it's deeply connected
to almost everything going on inside you. So it's linked
to the brain. It's talking to the brain at all times.
I mean, I like to say that the gut and
the brain are BFFs, constantly sending messages to each other,
(05:31):
this cyclical, bidirectional kind of communication. It's talking to our
immune system. In fact, if you think about it's seventy
percent of your immune system actually lives in your gut.
Your gut is wing to break down food. So the
food that you eat, the vitamins and minerals and energy,
everything that your body needs is really highly dependent upon
(05:53):
the gut. And then it's also linked to inflammation. So
if the gut isn't healthy, it can leak bad stuff
into your body, triggering inflammation. And this is like your
body's alarm system going off, and it can lead to
problems everywhere from your skin to your heart to your joints.
And then the gut is also a hormone balancer, so
(06:16):
your gut helps regulate hormones. It influences things like stress levels,
how hungry you are, even your mood swings. I also
like to say that the gut is a detox system.
It helps get rid of waste and toxins. It's linked
to your skin. So a lot of people think like,
(06:36):
oh my god, I have exema. It's something totally you know,
unrelated to my gut, But it could be related to
your gut as well. Any kind of inflammation going on
in the gut could end up, you know, manifesting in
your skin. And believe it or not, the health of
your heart is also connected to your gut. So in short,
(06:56):
your gut is like the control center for your body.
If it's not working well, it can throw off all
kinds of important systems, from how you feel mentally, to
how your body fights disease, to how your skin looks
and more. And that's why keeping your gut healthy is
so important for your overall well being.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah. I love the fact that the gut and the
brain are BFFs. That's a great that's a good one.
So before we talk about how to have a healthy gut,
when I read your paper on the gut stress connection,
I just found that study to be so fascinating. So
tell us about that study. What was the objective of
(07:36):
that research. What did you set out to discover that
with that study.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, like I've mentioned, you know before, we Americans, we
experience a lot of stress. In fact, we end up
not going to work or have health related costs that
are really astronomical. And it all really comes down to stress.
And when we think about stress, it's linked to on
out a progression of disease, whether it's mental anxiety, depression,
(08:04):
or even physical health physical disease like cardiovascular disease or obesity.
And it affects everybody. So you could be a kid,
You could be a baby. Think about a baby crying
in a crib, or you could be a child on
a playground being bullied or having to do homework, making friends.
You could be an adult trying to make money. So
(08:25):
stress is just such a prevalent part. But you know,
as scientists and as physicians, we tend to focus on
the negative. We're always thinking about, well, how do we
cure this disease, How do we find a treatment for
this disease? And I wanted to flip the coin, and
I wanted to look at the other side of things. Now,
(08:47):
how is it that people who despite experiencing stress farewell.
What is it about these individuals that are so different
or special? And this actually gave I think can give
us an sites in two treatments and prevention strategies. So
this is really what the impetus was behind the study.
So we recruited over one hundred and sixteen adult individuals
(09:11):
there were anywhere from the ages of eighteen to sixty,
and we administered a resilient scale, which is known as
the Connor Davidson Resilience Scale, which is really a ten
items scale. It measures things like positive acceptance of change,
tolerance of negative affect, tenacity, and the ability to recover
after stressful events. And it's these ten items really measure
(09:36):
resilience on five main factors. One is personal competence, so
high standards and tenacity. Two is trust in one's instincts,
so tolerance of this like negative kind of affect, strengthening
effects of stress. Three is positive acceptance of change and
secure relationships, and four is sense of control and five
(10:00):
tree spiritual influences. So we not only measured resilience, so
this psychological resilience against stress, but we also measured other
aspects like clinical and behavior measures. So we gave them
questionnaires on anxiety, depression, cognitive functioning. Then we put them
in the scanner in an MRI scanner, and we looked
(10:21):
at their brain, and we wanted to look at the
structure and the connectivity of these different brain regions, and
then we collected their stool in order to look at
the microbiome, the abundance and the function of the microbiome.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, that's I mean the fact that you were so thorough.
You looked at the microbiome, you looked at the brain function,
and then you had this resilience test. So what did
you find out? What were some of the conclusions that
you were able to come to.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Right, So if we look at just the brain, we
see that there were certain features or functions that were
related to improve emotional regulation and cognition. What do I
mean by that? Think of yourself as you're driving in
a car and somebody just comes in front of you
road rage, just cuts you off, and you can see
(11:14):
you can feel yourself getting really angry, so you slam
on the brakes. Now, if your brakes are working really well,
your car will stop and you'll be like, Okay, thank god, Okay,
that was a close call. You calm down and you
move on. Right, It's the same thing. So those brakes
in the brain were working really well in these highly
resiliant individuals. What we also saw at the gut level,
(11:38):
or the microbiome level, was that it was it had
like a microbial signature that was linked to reduced inflammation.
And remember before I talked about how the gut is
related to inflammation. Seventy percent of your inflammatory signals are
in your gut. So these highly resilient individuals had reduced inflammation.
(11:58):
They had bacterials natures that were related to gut veryer integrity.
The way I like to describe that is when you're
thinking about a white picket fence. Those that glue that
that you know, joins those wooden bars together on a
white picket fence, That's what the microbiome is doing. It
(12:19):
means that that Verrier integrity is intact. Nothing that's supposed
to go out, that's not supposed to go out is
going out. It just basically keeps everything where it's supposed
to be. We also saw on a behavioral level that
these individuals had high extraversion. They were more mindful, they
had less perceived stress, and less neuroticism, less anxiety depression.
(12:44):
But what was so interesting was that these individuals were
really very open minded, very non judgmental, very easy going,
just kind of happy, go lucky individuals.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Is just fascinating to me. So when you're talking about
you're talking about leaky gut dyspiosis. We talk about that
a lot on this show. So basically, you're saying that
the people with a healthy gut that didn't have the
leaky gut or dyspiosis, those people were more resilient, open minded,
(13:19):
And I just feel that that's just fascinating. So is
the conclusion that if you have a healthy gut, your
mental health will fare better as well.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yes, of the part of that is correct. So you
also have to have high resilience. Remember that Connor Davidson
resilience scale, So we were looking at individuals who scored
high on this resilient scale compared to individuals who scored low.
So the individuals who were high on resilience, the psychological
(13:54):
resilience to stress, had less leaky gut, had less information,
and less anxiety and depression. And we're you know, non judgmental,
more open going, more mindful, more grateful, those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, So basically, if you're looking for a stress management technique,
look to the gut. Look to having a healthy gut,
and that's the coolest thing ever. Okay, well, let's dig
in to some ways to have a healthier gut, because
I think, you know, we all want to be more resilient.
(14:33):
And another reason I was drawn to your paper is
I wrote a Psychology Today column about ways to become
more resilient. So I really feel that you know this
is this is something that you can learn. And now
you're telling us that a healthy gut will help people
cope with stress better as well. So very very cool stuff.
(14:54):
So if you were to make a list of ways
to positively influence gut health, what would be at the
top of the list. And I realize that's probably an
unfair question, but I'm going to ask you anyway.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah, you know, there are a number of things you
can do. And I think you know, when people usually
ask me these questions, I say, well, you know, there
are a number of ways we know that resilience are
not having resilience affects your brain, affects your gut, and
affect your just your behavior. Right, So clearly you can
(15:30):
target those three things. But since the gut is connected
to everything, it's connected to the brain, it's connected to inflammation, hormones, digestion,
even beautiful skin. Having beautiful skin is connected to your gut.
So maybe the healing the gut makes the most sense.
And I say this because I believe. Yeah, sure you
(15:50):
can heal your brain. You know, it's not that if
you're born with a certain gut micro biome signature, if
you're born with a certain brain signature, you can't heal it.
I think you can heal it. But healing the gut,
I believe is easier and it's faster because what you
do today, how you influence your gut microbiome today, will
have profound impacts on your gut, even within twenty four hours.
(16:14):
And you know, most people when they think about gut
directed therapies, they think about, you know, fecal microbiome transplants
so fmts or what I call crapsules, And really, you know,
craft souls are complicated. They you know, they work in
one disease. They haven't really been shown to be effective
(16:35):
in other areas, and I think they're risky and complicated.
So so then people when they think about gut microbiome,
they think about, oh, probiotics and probiotics, which one should
I take? And of course you're bombarded with all these
probiotics and prebiotics out there, and honestly, it's just it's
just very confusing. The testing hasn't been done. They you
(16:58):
know how much to take, which one to take. It's
just it's just very complicated. It hasn't those tests haven't
been done yet. So I like to say, well, why
go to these capsules, why go to these supplements? Why
not look at diet. It's the one thing that can
impact the gut quicker and easier, it's accessible, it has
(17:22):
therapeutic properties and biochemicals. Why not look at the diet.
It's it's the most influential, influential and easiest way to
impact your gut microbiome is really through your diet. Diet,
and we can support gut brain connection by incorporating a
very balanced and diverse diet that's rich in fiber, probotics,
(17:44):
fermented foods, omica three, fatty acids or antioxidants, while at
the same time minimizing consumption of like things like processed
foods or added sugars or artificial sweeteners, or even excessive
alcohol and antibiotics. And I like to say, it's really
really important to eat a diet that's rich, that's diverse
(18:06):
and fruits and vegetables. It's the best way to support
a healthy gut microbiome. And I always talk about ABC's
always be counting, and I don't mean counting your calories.
What I mean is be counting the number of different,
diverse fruits and vegetables that you're putting in your body
(18:27):
per week. And I usually say thirty per week is
a good number. If you can increase that number, that's great,
but at least starting that with thirty is a great
way to maintain a healthy microbiome. And a lot of
people when I say that, I see their faces change
and they kind of glaze over and they're like, oh, no, no, no,
(18:48):
here comes another fad diet. And I'm not talking about
fat diets. I don't care what diet you eat, but
just by introducing diverse fruits and vegetables is really the
easiest way. And the best example I like to give
is just like a pot of stew. You know, if
you think about it, you're you put in there with potatoes, carrots,
(19:11):
maybe some onions, tomatoes, some kind of herb, some kind
of spice that's already six or five in one meal,
and you know it's it's not as hard as people
think when you're just trying to add something different versus
trying to make people change diets. I don't believe in
changing diets, so that's what I would recommend.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So why is variety or diversity with these fruits and
vegetables so.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Important, Because then you're in so the different fruits and
vegetables are basically the food for the bacteria, for the
good bacteria in your gut. And when you start to
introduce probotic or fermented foods in your gut, you're actually
introducing good bacteria. So you're introducing not only the good
(20:00):
but then you're introducing food that helps that good bacteria
thrive and grow. Think of it as fertilizer for your plants.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, perfect, and I would agree with you. And so
beyond diet, what are some other ways that we can
influence the health of our gut microbiome?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Well, remember I said that the brain and the gut
are BFFs, So you know, you can always do things
to improve your brain health because if you change your brain,
it's going to change your microbiome. So one of the
things other than we've talked about food, we've talked about diet.
We've talked about supplements, you know, things like just being
(20:43):
more mindful, stress reduction, being more grateful, non judgmental, I think,
you know, getting along with people. I also believe it's
so important that we think about the environment we think.
You know, when I say the word environment, I don't
even mean talking about pollutions or you know, things like that.
(21:07):
I'm just talking about the people that you surround yourself
with and the way that you treat people. Being connected
to the people around you. That social connection is so important.
Even your pets, your family members, your kids, your spouses,
your partners, everybody around you, people you work with. All
of that really has a huge impact on your gut, microbiome,
(21:30):
and on your mind of course too. But you know,
so I think that if we can try to do
little things to improve our gut, but if we can
also do little things to improve our mind and our
brain and also our environment and the relationships we have.
People always talk about blue zones, blue zones, blue zones.
Why does blue zones work? Yes, they do eat a
(21:52):
healthy diet, But I think it's more than that. I
think it's the connections that they have, the people that
they surround themselves, with that community, that interconnectedness is really key.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah. I mean it's such a good point because you
mentioned earlier that this is a bi directional relationship, so
it makes sense that it would go both ways. If
you want to enhance brain function, you enhance gut health.
If you want to enhance gut health, you enhance brain function.
I also love the fact I think it was even
in your study where this group of resilient people were
(22:27):
also had more characteristics of kindness and compassion. Am I
getting that right?
Speaker 3 (22:32):
That is correct? And they were more mindful, they were
more extroverted, they were non judgmental. So when we think
about stress, how we're very reactive and we get angry,
you know, maybe that isn't the key to being healthy
and to being happy. Maybe letting things go, maybe just
(22:54):
being a little bit more empathetic. I'm not saying that
we need to be you know, doormats or anything like that.
Is something's going wrong, we shouldn't stand up. I'm not
saying any of that. But just being grateful for what
we have and being more connected and more empathetic and
just kinder human beings, just nicer people, I think would
really I think go a long way and actually help
(23:19):
our health and help medicine more than we even realize.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah. I love the fact that you're a neuroscientist, a researcher,
you know, obviously a PhD. And I love the fact
that you're talking about things like gratitude and kindness and
having this all kind of intertwined into health and health care.
(23:46):
I think it's I think it's brilliant And.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
The biggest thing I would really like to talk about
and to highlight also is social connection. I don't think
we put enough emphasis on social connection. If you think
about it, our surge in general. Dtr Muthy, you know,
talked about the loneliness epidemic. One and two Americans is lonely.
(24:11):
That's half of us, and the huge implications. You know,
he put out a report a couple of years ago
that showed Americans are getting sicker because we're very lonely
isolated individuals.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, it's just even yeah, just so so.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Not only am I advocating that, hey, we shouldn't be
looking at separate organs in our body. Everything is interconnected,
but everything is interconnected on the outside too, and it's
impacting what's going on on the inside. So we really
need to be thinking about our social connections to on
a on a deeper level and the implications that that has.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Oh yeah, the research regarding social isolation and risk of illness,
it's it's growing and it's significant. So from a research
perspective regarding the gut brain access, what more would you
like to see happen in this area in the coming years.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I think the science needs to catch up. I think
we need to be doing more integrated, more collaborative science.
You know, you've mentioned I'm a neuroscientist, so really everything
for me is starts with the brain, right and it's
all downhill from there. But I think that it's just
not only about the brain. The brain is connected to
(25:32):
everything else. We've talked about the gut, the gut to
the brain, the brain to the gut, but also how
everything's connected to our environment are outside. So I'd like
to see more integrated science being done. I'd like to
see more collaborative science being done. And even when we
talk because very focused on gut health and brain gut health,
(25:53):
when we talk about supplements, of course, you know that's
our whole aim of the Good mon Luskin Microbiome Center
is where we're thinking about, Okay, how what does this
mean for treatment or even prevention. I'd like to see
all these supplements. I'm not saying they don't work like
these probotics and probotics. I think they do. I just
think they need to be tested, you know, we need
(26:14):
to better understand the implications, you know, and how it
impacts different diseases and how, and that's what we're trying
to do in the center. And I just think that
science really needs to be where we talk about these
ideas in theory, but I think we now need to
put them in practice and really talk about truly integrated
translational science.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, this is going to be exciting to watch. I mean,
I feel like we're just getting started in this area
and it's just going to be great to see what
comes out of this and what comes out of your
center in terms of future research. I'm excited about it.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Yeah, thank you, I am too. Well.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Thank you again doctor Church for joining me, Thank you
for having me. Well that wraps up this episode of
Five to Thrive Live once again. I'd like to thank
our sponsors pro Thrivers Wellness Sleep Formula, Immuse post biotic
to give your immune system that extra boost. Cotton is
in Cetacolon to help enhance memory, focus and attention, and
(27:19):
doctor Ohiro's award winning shelf staple probiotic. This has been
a great show. May you experience joy, laughter and love.
It's time to thrive everyone, have a great night. Ja
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