April 9, 2024 • 28 mins
Intuitive eating has become a popular "non-diet" eating pattern. But how much do you know about this growing trend? On this show, Karolyn talks with Elyse Resch who is a nutrition therapist who specializes in intuitive eating. She is the co-creator of intuitiveeating.org and co-authored the book Intuitive Eating: A Revolutionary Anti-Diet Approach. Find out more!
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(00:00):
Any health related information on the followingshow provides general information only. Content presented
on any show by any host orguest should not be substituted for a doctor's
advice. Always consult your physician beforebeginning any new diet, exercise, or
treatment program. Sister, Hello everyone, and welcome to five to Thrive Live.
(00:43):
I'm Carolyn Gazella and I co hostthe show with my good friend doctor
Lee se Foscheler. Today our topicis intuitive eating and I find this subject
pretty fascinating. But first I'd liketo thank our sponsors, beginning with American
Biosciences, makers of Metatrol fermented wheatterm extract for enhanced mitochondrial function and IMpower
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AHCC to Supercharge your immune system.For free samples, research and an exclusive
Thrive discount are available at Dharmonycompany dotcom forward slash Thrive. That's Theharmonycompany dot
com forward slash Thrive. Also Amuse, a unique, patented post biotic that
gives your immune system a key advantage. Ammuse is an ingredient in many immune
(01:26):
supporting dietary supplements. Look for Amuseon the label or go to ammusehealth dot
com for more information. Also,cognizance citicoline, which is nature's way of
keeping the brain's energy producing centers firingon all cylinders. If you're looking for
a way to enhance your brain function, including memory, focus, and attention,
look for Cognizant on the label orgo to Cognizant dot com for more
(01:47):
information. Prothriver's Brain is a productthat contains Cognizant as well as other brain
supporting nutrients and herbs. You canfind Prothriver's Brain online at Pure Formulas dot
com. And finally, doctor Ohira'sProbiotics. It's a best selling probatic for
more than thirty years and it containstwelve probotic strains that are shelf stable so
no refrigeration is required. Because ofa unique three year fermentation process, It's
(02:09):
a very effective probiotic. Learn moreat doctor Ohiro Probiotics dot com. With
me today is Aleish Rush, whois a registered dietitian with a master's in
nutrition who specializes in intuitive eating,which is the subject of our show today.
She is the co author of IntuitiveEating Now in its fourth edition,
(02:30):
the Intuitive Eating Workbook, and theIntuitive Eating Card dep She is also the
co creator of the website Intuitive eatingdot org at lease thanks for joining me.
Well, it's a pleasure, thankyou. Yeah, you are all
about intuitive eating, which is great. So when when and why did you
(02:52):
become so interested in intuitive eating?Well, the first book came out in
nineteen ninety five, so it's almostthirty years ago. And prior to that,
I was working at Children's Hospital LosAngeles and a clinic working with developmentally
disabled kids, and I thought thatwas what my career was going to be.
(03:13):
By the way, this is mysecond career. I was an elementary
school teacher when I got out ofcollege at UCLA and then went back to
graduate school later, and I thought, oh, I just loved working with
these families, and I ran theirfeeding clinic, and guess what, I
just didn't get referrals for these kids. And I ended up getting referrals from
medical professionals who were constantly wanting meto help people heal their medical problems with
(03:39):
weight loss, and that just didn'tsit right for me. I didn't like
the idea of diets. I didgive people an idea of how to eat,
and they could handle it for awhile, and then they would not
be able to do it, andit was just a very uncomfortable experience for
me. And one day I hada young woman who had come in the
(04:00):
week before and I had given hera plan of what to eat, and
she came back and she was cryingand she just said, I can't do
it. I'm binging. And Ididn't know what to do with that.
And so I did a lot ofresearch into psychology, and there was a
little bit in the literature about nondiet approach now and who reading is an
anti diet approach, which I canexplain later, and it just spoke to
(04:24):
me. I'm very interested in psychology, and I realized that there is no
way that an external, externally commanded, I would say, way of eating
will ever ever be sustainable, becausewe have that autonomous piece in us,
that teenager that doesn't like to betold what to do. Also, most
(04:45):
diets cause a lot of deprivation.You don't get to eat the food you
really like, or as much ofthem as you would like. And those
two things combined lead people to notbeing able to stay on the diet,
and then they end up feeling reallybad about themselves. And I've always told
clients who come in and say theirfailures of dieting. I say, oh,
no, no, no, youare a success at ego development.
(05:06):
You have a very strong ego thatisn't going to be told what to do.
So now what if I didn't know? If I couldn't do what I
was doing before? It came tome that I could help people by not
telling them what to do, buthelping them get reconnected with their internal wisdom
about eating, which the majority ofus are born with. And that's where
(05:28):
the idea came to mind. Andat that time, my co author was
renting space for me in my officebecause she lived an hour away and came
up once a week. And oneday she walked by me and looked a
little bit sad or disgrundled, andI said, what's the matter and she
said, oh, my goodness,I'm writing this book with this psychologist and
she doesn't know how to write.And it was just as light bulb that
(05:49):
went off. I knew I wasa good writer, and I knew I
was interested in psychology, and Isaid, I'll write it with you,
and interestingly we had similar ideas andthat was an nineteen ninety three and that's
how the first book came about.We had three different publishing companies that were
very interested in us, and wewent with Saint Martin's Press, and now
we're in the fourth edition twenty twenty, and we are also at the moment
(06:15):
we are writing the second edition ofthe Intuitivating Workbook, and then I wrote
a couple of my own, theIntuitivating Workbook for Teens and the Intuitivating Journal.
So yeah, I'm all about intobeating, that's for sure. That's
great. So start us off bydefining intuitive eating. How do you define
it? Well, the interesting generaldefinition is that it's a self compassionate,
(06:39):
self care process for helping people getreconnected with that internal wisdom that I was
talking about before about eating. Peopleknow what they like to eat, they
know when they're hungry, they knowwhen they're full. But I don't think
that truly explains it, and soI've come up with an additional definition,
which comes from looking at the threeparts of the brain fund. One part
(07:00):
is the instinctual part of the brain. This was the part that the dinosaurs
had that kept them alive. It'sthe survival part. It doesn't necessarily deal
with feelings or thoughts. It's justall keep me alive. And then the
emotional part of the brain, thelimbic or the mammalian part, is the
seat of emotions and social behaviors.And then what differentiates us as humans from
(07:24):
cats and dogs, who are mammalsthat have the mammalian brain, is the
neocortex, or the thinking part ofthe brain. So my definition of intuitivating
is that it's a dynamic interplay ofinstinct, emotion, and thought. And
one of the misconceptions about intuitivating isyou don't ever have to think about it,
You'll just know. Well, there'spart of us that knows. But
(07:46):
then our emotions can affect can affectour instincts for eating, so can illness,
and so we need to use thethinking part of our brain to make
the best choices self care, asI said, for us. So I
hope that explains it a little better. Yeah, I love it. Instinct,
emotion, thinking, they are allinvolved, and I love that interplay.
So intuitive eating is often called anon dieting approach to food. Why
(08:13):
is it called that? Actually calledan anti dieting because not only do we
not want people dieting, but wewant them to challenge diet culture. So
we're against all of the toxic effectsthat dieting has on people in our world,
and mostly the horrible effect it hason people in larger bodies. So
(08:35):
we are especially I am looking throughWe both are a social justice lens helping
the world give equal treatment to peopleand all marginalized identities, including people in
larger bodies. So we're very muchagainst dieting. It's not just don't diet,
it's we're against it. Yeah,that makes a lot of sense.
(09:00):
Why is intuitive eating a better approachthan trying a particular diet? And my
goodness, there are lots of differentdiets out there. Why is intuitive eating
better? Well? As I mentionedbefore, diets are all external. Somebody
is telling you. Whether you've readit on social media or you've seen it
in a magazine, it's out there. Even if you don't think you're on
(09:24):
a diet, you've got that messagethat you should restrict certain foods, or
some foods are good and some foodsare bad, or some foods are healthy
and some foods aren't healthy. Andinevitably, that independent part of us,
that need to assert autonomy is like, no, don't tell me what to
eat. Plus, people don't wantto feel deprived, and so it's not
sustainable. There is not a dietthat is sustainable. Ninety five to ninety
(09:48):
eight percent of people who go ondiets and lose weight, they gain that
weight back and within two years twothirds of them have gained even more weight.
Intoitive eating, on the other sideof the coin, is completely sustainable.
It's about listening to your body,trusting your body, knowing that you're
(10:09):
the only one who is the expert. You're the only one who can know,
as I said earlier, what youlike to eat, and when you're
hungry and when you're full, andyour emotions and many other things. And
so I've been in private practice forforty two years, and I've been obviously
working with intuitive eating for a goodthirty of those years, if not a
little more. When I started thinkingabout it, myself and my clients change
(10:35):
their lives. They are constantly tellingme that their life is so much better
now that they've absolutely given up dieting. They will never go on another diet,
and intoitive eating is something that theycan trust. They trust their bodies,
and they understand their emotions, andthey use the thinking part of the
brain to make the best decisions forthemselves. So it's really sustainability. Diets
(10:56):
are not sustainable and into it eatingis forever. Yeah, I would agree
with you. We talk about thata lot, that the eating pattern that
you choose needs to become a wayof life and you need to embrace it
for the long haul, and itdoes need to be sustainable. Before we
dig into some of the practical thingsabout intuitive eating. The first time that
(11:16):
I heard about intuitive eating, itwas in relation to eating disorders. Can
you just talk briefly about the connectionbetween intuitive eating and eating disorders. There
is a very strong risk of endingup with an eating disorder when someone goes
(11:37):
on a diet, because they getdisconnected from all this wise information that they
have and they tend to when they'regoing on a diet, they're buying into
diet culture and into the culturally thinideal, and so they're wanting to be
thinner. And for some people itcan go all the way to anorexia or
nervosa, where they're ending up completelymalnourished, starving themselves. And so diets
(12:03):
have rebounds. Also, often whenpeople have been restricting, they rebound with
eating beyond fullness or binging, andbinging can be an eating disorder. And
then some people cannot tolerate the feelingof that fullness and will end up purging,
either by vomiting or excessive exercise.So dieting is just the precursor for
(12:26):
so many people of an eating disorderthat they might not have ended up with
if they hadn't if they hadn't startedthat diet. And as I mentioned,
I think, I'm sorry, goahead, go ahead, go ahead.
Well, I was going to say, I'm I'm a certified eating disorder specialist,
and I will tell you that inall the years that I've been working
(12:48):
with eating disorders, and that's prettymuch my entire career, pretty much,
I would say ninety percent of thepeople who have come to me, it
started with some form of restriction,whether it was a formal diet or whether
they just decided they weren't going toeat carbs, or they were going to
only you know, twice a day, or whatever it was, whether they
imposed it on themselves or they werefollowing something more formal, that is where
(13:13):
it began for the majority of myclients who have eating disorders. Yeah,
what I like about this eating patternis that it's all about really looking at
a relationship with food and loving ourbody and those types of aspects which I
think is so important, that connectionthat it creates with food in our bodies.
(13:35):
So if someone is interested in tryingthis particular eating approach, where the
heck do you start? Well,I would first start with the word try,
because this is not just something youtry, like you might try some
diet. People who come to mehave had it. They just cannot ever
go on another diet. And that'spretty much of a prerequisite to being able
(13:58):
to be tuned into yourself, becauseif there's another diet in the future,
like, oh, I'll try thisintuitive eating thing for a while, and
if it doesn't work, then I'lltry and I could name and I don't
even want too many of the dietsout there, because just that mere perception
of future deprivation that's going to comewith that diet that they might do if
(14:20):
this doesn't work for them is enoughto keep them from being connected to themselves
and lead them to maybe eating everythingthey can that they've got the freedom to
eat now because it's about making peacewith food. But they better eat it
all now because when they failed atthis, as they've failed at so many
other ways of eating, then theywon't get to eat those foods anymore.
(14:43):
So it's a setup. It's asetup, so people have to be ready
to say I will never diet again. And the first place I like to
go with people, Well, thefirst place is really challenging diet culture and
just how toxic it is and howoppressive it is, how unfair it is.
And once we get past that,I like to have people take a
(15:03):
look at how they can get themost satisfaction in eating. And some people
look at me, like, whatsatisfaction? I'm really supposed to enjoy food?
They haven't. Well. I haveone client now in her sixties,
fairly new client who said that shehas never enjoyed food as much as she
loves food, but she doesn't enjoyit because she's always feeling guilty and bad
that she's either eating too much orthe wrong things. And looking through a
(15:26):
lens of satisfaction helps someone understand thebest time to start eating. I like
to say to people, would youeat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on
your way to your very favorite restaurantto celebrate some event? And people look
at me and go duh, atleast of course not? And I say
why? And they said, becauseI wouldn't have an appetite and I go
bigo. We know intuitively the food'sgoing to taste better if we have an
(15:50):
appetite. Now, the converse isif we're in primal hunger, which is
where your blood sugar is on theground and you're just so starving or you
feel as if you're starving, thenthat's not going to be an enjoyable melia
either, because all you can dois get the food in as fast as
you can. We have a chemicalin our brain and the instinctual part of
(16:11):
our brain called neuropeptide y, andit is released when that's survival part.
Instinctual part of the brain senses youknow, organism and danger, red flag
alert, and it will release thischemical which just sends people to eat as
much as they can and as manycarbs as they can because the person's in
(16:32):
danger. We need we need carbohydrates, and we need to keep our blood
sugar even and get enough from sugarinto the brain so the brain can work.
By the way, just as asidebar, the only form of energy
that can enter the blame excuse methe brain from the bloodstream is glucose,
which is your smallest form of carbohydrates. So all those people out there who
say carbs are bad, they don'tget it. We desperately need carbohydrates for
(16:57):
our brains to work, so thatyou can they can send messages to all
of our parts of our body towork properly. So satisfaction, getting back
to that, what foods do youreally enjoy? Don't eat foods that you
think you should rather than what reallyis delicious for you. Eating an environment
that is satisfying, you know,not while you're having a fight with someone
(17:18):
or not when there's you know,construction noise right next to you. If
you can avoid it, find waysto get the most satisfaction in eating.
And people love it. They justlove it because nobody's ever suggested to them
that they can just choose foods thatthey will enjoy. Yeah, so you
just went over a lot, SoI want to unpack some of it.
So when I first started, whenI first started reading about this, I
(17:41):
thought, isn't that interesting? Ican eat anything I want? How could
that make sense? I mean evenI had a hard time wrapping my head
around it. So I love thefact that you're helping people make peace with
food, But how does one overcomethat guilt, because if I am going
(18:02):
to eat anything I want or eateverything that I enjoy, how do I
not feel guilty eating a piece offried chicken? Did you steal the fried
chicken? You should feel guilty ifyou stole it. But you know,
there should be no morality attached toeating. I mean, it has to
(18:23):
be something that is well. Firstof all, access to food is so
important. We keep through the socialjustice lens. We're looking at a world
where there are so many people whodon't have access to food. But if
you're privileged enough to have the accessto food, there's absolutely no reason to
feel bad about what you're eating.All foods, by the way, I
(18:45):
have a Master of Science degree innutrition, so I'm kind of a science
nerd. And all foods break downto carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and
if it's a protein, nitrogen,So you know, once you're digesting the
food, once you chew it andyou digest it and then you absorb.
But it's just a bunch of littlebasic molecules. So how can anything be
(19:06):
bad or wrong? And so wehave to let guilt go completely. There's
no guilt. Yeah, So that'spart of the psychology of all of this,
so I know that this is nota diet to lose weight. But
there's also a little voice in myhead that says, do people gain weight
(19:29):
when they start doing intuitive eating?Are people? There are people who stay
the same, There are people wholose weight, there are people who gain
weight. Typically the people who gainweight have been suppressing their weight by restriction,
and once they allow themselves to eatto nourish their bodies, they may
way more than what they were,you know, maintaining with suppression. But
(19:52):
typically most people just kind of staythe same. So it's not it's weight
loss is really problematic if you're thinkingabout that when you're working on tuning into
your body, because any thoughts ofweight loss can lead to, oh,
gosh, I have full freedom teatwhat I want, but do I really
want to eat that the project andthat you're talking about that you didn't steal.
(20:18):
You know, it goes back tothat old dye culture, thinking that
this food is fattening and that foodis not fattening. There's no such thing
as fattening. By the way,if you're eating according to what your body
tells you, you'll eat just whatyour body needs amount wise. At first,
you may eat more of it becauseyou've been so deprived for so long,
so there's that rebound. But eventuallyyou just are satisfied with eating foods
(20:41):
that are delicious and you want tofeel good. So much of intuitive eating,
as I say, it's self care. Also, the self compassion part
is the self compassion for how we'vebeen brainwashing and gas lit around guilt,
you know, and morality and eating. But physiologically we just want to feel
good. Neural chemically also, wewant to feel good. We want our
(21:02):
brains to feel good, we wantour bodies to feel good, so we
listen. Sometimes, Sure, it'ssad to stop eating when you've had you
know, you know you've had enough. If you keep eating, you're going
to feel you're going to feel physicallyuncomfortable. I wrote a paper called the
Sadness of Saying Enough, which isbasically anything we do in life that's wonderful,
(21:22):
there's a moment when we realize weneed to stop. And there's a
moment of that feeling. But Icall it feeling light. It's not you
know, it's not like a heavyfeeling of some terrible depression. It's just
a moment And so yeah, yeah, Well, I'm going to make an
assumption here, and I want youto let me know if my assumption is
(21:44):
correct. I'm going to assume thateven though I have guilt, as I
use this diet as a new wayof life, I'm making peace with food,
I'm making peace with my relationship withfood, and I'm starting to love
my body. And I'm going toassume that there's a shift that takes place
(22:04):
where the diet is less about hey, eat anything you want and more about
nourishment, satisfaction and all of thoseother things. I will agree with most
of Yeah, I agree with mostof what you said. But this isn't
a diet, So we have tobe very careful not to call into eating
(22:25):
a diet because a diet implies restriction. A diet and implies an external you
know, rule of external rules.So this is a way of life,
This is a this is a philosophy, This is a just a wonderful sense
of joy in life and trust.So yes, in answer to your question,
(22:47):
this is what happens as people startto trust that they will never the
food will not be taken away fromthem. What happens is a concept called
habituation, which means the greater thestimulus, the less response. So the
more you give yourself permission to eatwhat you want to eat, you take
away the forbiddenness of it. Itdoesn't hold that power of Ooh, I
(23:10):
better get as much of it asI can now, because I won't allow
myself to have it later, orthe excitement of forbidden fruit quote unquote.
But it's something that takes place.It's amazing to me how quickly this happens.
I once had a client who thefirst time she came in and we
talked about this, she said,okay, I want to get started.
(23:30):
What do I do? I said, what's your favorite food? And she
said grilled cheese? And I said, great, eat grilled cheese every day
this week? She said every day. I said sure. She said,
oh that's great. There's this restaurantnearby that has grilled cheese week perfect.
Well, when she came in thenext week, I said, how do
you go? She said, ohmy goodness. After three days, I
didn't want another grilled cheese. Soit was that she knew she had the
(23:52):
freedom to have it, it wasnot going to be taken away from her,
and she just got habituated to it. Was enough, was enough.
So there is a very strong internalshift for feeling safety, feeling the lack
of deprivation, feeling the lack ofguilt. It's just a wonderful way to
(24:14):
live. I've been eating this wayfor forty years. And I did have
an eating disorder when I was inmy youth, when I was gosh,
in my late twenties early thirties,and I was dieting and I was binging.
That was my eating disorder. Itwas dieting and I was binging.
And once I was able to getaway from that mentality, that restrictiveness,
that trying to be thinner, youknow, to meet that ideal, everything
(24:38):
changed and it's just so wonderful.I'm pretty old now and it's wonderful to
be able to just enjoy food andnot worry about it well, and also
the loving your body part I thinkwe as women, that's such a great
benefit that comes with this eating pattern. So are there any dangers or cautions
(24:59):
associated this way of eating? Forexample, like people who've had an eating
disorder should not do fasting or youknow, so there are cautions, but
what about this diet? Is thereanyone who should not try intuitive eating?
Well, if someone is in thethroes of a very dangerous eating disorder,
(25:21):
they need a higher level of care, they need treatment, but they still
can be exposed to some of theprinciples of intuitive eating, so not the
hunger and the fullness, because theycan't detect that it's been so pushed away
from the eating disorder, and sometimesthey have slow to stomach emptying so they're
never feeling hungry. That piece cannotbe given to people who have you know,
(25:47):
early stages of eating disorders. Butthey can learn to respect their bodies,
they can learn to accept satisfaction ineating, they can learn different coping
mechanisms for their emotions. They canlearn to make peace with food, you
know food food experimentation where they'll takea fruit and food and they'll learn that
it's just food and they're fine withit. So I would say the caution
(26:07):
is for someone in you know,who's seriously ill, they need to be
in residential care for sure, andeven the residential care facilities now are introducing
into a debating at some point inthe treatment. But the hunger fullness part
can't be in the beginning. Okay, got it, Well, we have
about a minute left, so tellus what people will find when they go
to intuitive eating dot org RG.What will they find. Well, one
(26:33):
of the things is that there isa list, not all of them,
but there are over two hundred scientificstudies now that are evidence based that are
finding that people who are into adibatersor are taught into a debating have a
higher level of mental health and betterphysical health as well. So some of
the studies are on there. Theywill also find how to a place to
(26:57):
find a certified into a debating unseler. My co author and I have a
program for betraining people and there's ohpeople all over the world now who are
certified. So there's a place therewhere they can put in the area code,
uh not the zip code and finda certain fight intunivating Councilor they can
also go to my website, whichwhich is a least rush dot com and
(27:19):
I have tons of things on there. I've got articles I've written, and
links to podcasts I've done, andpersonal information about it personal not too personal,
but you know how I can't dointivating. So that's that's a little
more personal website than the intunivating dotorg. Great, so that's intuitive eating
dot org. And then alease rashdot com. Well, thanks again at
(27:41):
least for joining me. This hasbeen great. Oh you're so welcome my
favorite subject. Thank you lighting meYou bet well. That wraps up this
episode of five to Thrive Live onceagain. I'd like to thank our sponsors,
American Biosciences, makers of metatrol andIMpower product to supercharge your immune system,
amuse post biotic to give your immunesystem that extra boost, cotton is
(28:04):
instead of colone to help enhance memory, focus on attention, and doctor o'his
award winning shelf stable probiotic. Thankyou for joining me. May you experience
joy, laughter and love. It'stime to thrive everyone, have a great
name. S
Any health related information on the followingshow provides general information only. Content presented
on any show by any host orguest should not be substituted for a doctor's
advice. Always consult your physician beforebeginning any new diet, exercise, or
treatment program. Sister, Hello everyone, and welcome to five to Thrive Live.
(00:43):
I'm Carolyn Gazella and I co hostthe show with my good friend doctor
Lee se Foscheler. Today our topicis intuitive eating and I find this subject
pretty fascinating. But first I'd liketo thank our sponsors, beginning with American
Biosciences, makers of Metatrol fermented wheatterm extract for enhanced mitochondrial function and IMpower
(01:03):
AHCC to Supercharge your immune system.For free samples, research and an exclusive
Thrive discount are available at Dharmonycompany dotcom forward slash Thrive. That's Theharmonycompany dot
com forward slash Thrive. Also Amuse, a unique, patented post biotic that
gives your immune system a key advantage. Ammuse is an ingredient in many immune
(01:26):
supporting dietary supplements. Look for Amuseon the label or go to ammusehealth dot
com for more information. Also,cognizance citicoline, which is nature's way of
keeping the brain's energy producing centers firingon all cylinders. If you're looking for
a way to enhance your brain function, including memory, focus, and attention,
look for Cognizant on the label orgo to Cognizant dot com for more
(01:47):
information. Prothriver's Brain is a productthat contains Cognizant as well as other brain
supporting nutrients and herbs. You canfind Prothriver's Brain online at Pure Formulas dot
com. And finally, doctor Ohira'sProbiotics. It's a best selling probatic for
more than thirty years and it containstwelve probotic strains that are shelf stable so
no refrigeration is required. Because ofa unique three year fermentation process, It's
(02:09):
a very effective probiotic. Learn moreat doctor Ohiro Probiotics dot com. With
me today is Aleish Rush, whois a registered dietitian with a master's in
nutrition who specializes in intuitive eating,which is the subject of our show today.
She is the co author of IntuitiveEating Now in its fourth edition,
(02:30):
the Intuitive Eating Workbook, and theIntuitive Eating Card dep She is also the
co creator of the website Intuitive eatingdot org at lease thanks for joining me.
Well, it's a pleasure, thankyou. Yeah, you are all
about intuitive eating, which is great. So when when and why did you
(02:52):
become so interested in intuitive eating?Well, the first book came out in
nineteen ninety five, so it's almostthirty years ago. And prior to that,
I was working at Children's Hospital LosAngeles and a clinic working with developmentally
disabled kids, and I thought thatwas what my career was going to be.
(03:13):
By the way, this is mysecond career. I was an elementary
school teacher when I got out ofcollege at UCLA and then went back to
graduate school later, and I thought, oh, I just loved working with
these families, and I ran theirfeeding clinic, and guess what, I
just didn't get referrals for these kids. And I ended up getting referrals from
medical professionals who were constantly wanting meto help people heal their medical problems with
(03:39):
weight loss, and that just didn'tsit right for me. I didn't like
the idea of diets. I didgive people an idea of how to eat,
and they could handle it for awhile, and then they would not
be able to do it, andit was just a very uncomfortable experience for
me. And one day I hada young woman who had come in the
(04:00):
week before and I had given hera plan of what to eat, and
she came back and she was cryingand she just said, I can't do
it. I'm binging. And Ididn't know what to do with that.
And so I did a lot ofresearch into psychology, and there was a
little bit in the literature about nondiet approach now and who reading is an
anti diet approach, which I canexplain later, and it just spoke to
(04:24):
me. I'm very interested in psychology, and I realized that there is no
way that an external, externally commanded, I would say, way of eating
will ever ever be sustainable, becausewe have that autonomous piece in us,
that teenager that doesn't like to betold what to do. Also, most
(04:45):
diets cause a lot of deprivation.You don't get to eat the food you
really like, or as much ofthem as you would like. And those
two things combined lead people to notbeing able to stay on the diet,
and then they end up feeling reallybad about themselves. And I've always told
clients who come in and say theirfailures of dieting. I say, oh,
no, no, no, youare a success at ego development.
(05:06):
You have a very strong ego thatisn't going to be told what to do.
So now what if I didn't know? If I couldn't do what I
was doing before? It came tome that I could help people by not
telling them what to do, buthelping them get reconnected with their internal wisdom
about eating, which the majority ofus are born with. And that's where
(05:28):
the idea came to mind. Andat that time, my co author was
renting space for me in my officebecause she lived an hour away and came
up once a week. And oneday she walked by me and looked a
little bit sad or disgrundled, andI said, what's the matter and she
said, oh, my goodness,I'm writing this book with this psychologist and
she doesn't know how to write.And it was just as light bulb that
(05:49):
went off. I knew I wasa good writer, and I knew I
was interested in psychology, and Isaid, I'll write it with you,
and interestingly we had similar ideas andthat was an nineteen ninety three and that's
how the first book came about.We had three different publishing companies that were
very interested in us, and wewent with Saint Martin's Press, and now
we're in the fourth edition twenty twenty, and we are also at the moment
(06:15):
we are writing the second edition ofthe Intuitivating Workbook, and then I wrote
a couple of my own, theIntuitivating Workbook for Teens and the Intuitivating Journal.
So yeah, I'm all about intobeating, that's for sure. That's
great. So start us off bydefining intuitive eating. How do you define
it? Well, the interesting generaldefinition is that it's a self compassionate,
(06:39):
self care process for helping people getreconnected with that internal wisdom that I was
talking about before about eating. Peopleknow what they like to eat, they
know when they're hungry, they knowwhen they're full. But I don't think
that truly explains it, and soI've come up with an additional definition,
which comes from looking at the threeparts of the brain fund. One part
(07:00):
is the instinctual part of the brain. This was the part that the dinosaurs
had that kept them alive. It'sthe survival part. It doesn't necessarily deal
with feelings or thoughts. It's justall keep me alive. And then the
emotional part of the brain, thelimbic or the mammalian part, is the
seat of emotions and social behaviors.And then what differentiates us as humans from
(07:24):
cats and dogs, who are mammalsthat have the mammalian brain, is the
neocortex, or the thinking part ofthe brain. So my definition of intuitivating
is that it's a dynamic interplay ofinstinct, emotion, and thought. And
one of the misconceptions about intuitivating isyou don't ever have to think about it,
You'll just know. Well, there'spart of us that knows. But
(07:46):
then our emotions can affect can affectour instincts for eating, so can illness,
and so we need to use thethinking part of our brain to make
the best choices self care, asI said, for us. So I
hope that explains it a little better. Yeah, I love it. Instinct,
emotion, thinking, they are allinvolved, and I love that interplay.
So intuitive eating is often called anon dieting approach to food. Why
(08:13):
is it called that? Actually calledan anti dieting because not only do we
not want people dieting, but wewant them to challenge diet culture. So
we're against all of the toxic effectsthat dieting has on people in our world,
and mostly the horrible effect it hason people in larger bodies. So
(08:35):
we are especially I am looking throughWe both are a social justice lens helping
the world give equal treatment to peopleand all marginalized identities, including people in
larger bodies. So we're very muchagainst dieting. It's not just don't diet,
it's we're against it. Yeah,that makes a lot of sense.
(09:00):
Why is intuitive eating a better approachthan trying a particular diet? And my
goodness, there are lots of differentdiets out there. Why is intuitive eating
better? Well? As I mentionedbefore, diets are all external. Somebody
is telling you. Whether you've readit on social media or you've seen it
in a magazine, it's out there. Even if you don't think you're on
(09:24):
a diet, you've got that messagethat you should restrict certain foods, or
some foods are good and some foodsare bad, or some foods are healthy
and some foods aren't healthy. Andinevitably, that independent part of us,
that need to assert autonomy is like, no, don't tell me what to
eat. Plus, people don't wantto feel deprived, and so it's not
sustainable. There is not a dietthat is sustainable. Ninety five to ninety
(09:48):
eight percent of people who go ondiets and lose weight, they gain that
weight back and within two years twothirds of them have gained even more weight.
Intoitive eating, on the other sideof the coin, is completely sustainable.
It's about listening to your body,trusting your body, knowing that you're
(10:09):
the only one who is the expert. You're the only one who can know,
as I said earlier, what youlike to eat, and when you're
hungry and when you're full, andyour emotions and many other things. And
so I've been in private practice forforty two years, and I've been obviously
working with intuitive eating for a goodthirty of those years, if not a
little more. When I started thinkingabout it, myself and my clients change
(10:35):
their lives. They are constantly tellingme that their life is so much better
now that they've absolutely given up dieting. They will never go on another diet,
and intoitive eating is something that theycan trust. They trust their bodies,
and they understand their emotions, andthey use the thinking part of the
brain to make the best decisions forthemselves. So it's really sustainability. Diets
(10:56):
are not sustainable and into it eatingis forever. Yeah, I would agree
with you. We talk about thata lot, that the eating pattern that
you choose needs to become a wayof life and you need to embrace it
for the long haul, and itdoes need to be sustainable. Before we
dig into some of the practical thingsabout intuitive eating. The first time that
(11:16):
I heard about intuitive eating, itwas in relation to eating disorders. Can
you just talk briefly about the connectionbetween intuitive eating and eating disorders. There
is a very strong risk of endingup with an eating disorder when someone goes
(11:37):
on a diet, because they getdisconnected from all this wise information that they
have and they tend to when they'regoing on a diet, they're buying into
diet culture and into the culturally thinideal, and so they're wanting to be
thinner. And for some people itcan go all the way to anorexia or
nervosa, where they're ending up completelymalnourished, starving themselves. And so diets
(12:03):
have rebounds. Also, often whenpeople have been restricting, they rebound with
eating beyond fullness or binging, andbinging can be an eating disorder. And
then some people cannot tolerate the feelingof that fullness and will end up purging,
either by vomiting or excessive exercise.So dieting is just the precursor for
(12:26):
so many people of an eating disorderthat they might not have ended up with
if they hadn't if they hadn't startedthat diet. And as I mentioned,
I think, I'm sorry, goahead, go ahead, go ahead.
Well, I was going to say, I'm I'm a certified eating disorder specialist,
and I will tell you that inall the years that I've been working
(12:48):
with eating disorders, and that's prettymuch my entire career, pretty much,
I would say ninety percent of thepeople who have come to me, it
started with some form of restriction,whether it was a formal diet or whether
they just decided they weren't going toeat carbs, or they were going to
only you know, twice a day, or whatever it was, whether they
imposed it on themselves or they werefollowing something more formal, that is where
(13:13):
it began for the majority of myclients who have eating disorders. Yeah,
what I like about this eating patternis that it's all about really looking at
a relationship with food and loving ourbody and those types of aspects which I
think is so important, that connectionthat it creates with food in our bodies.
(13:35):
So if someone is interested in tryingthis particular eating approach, where the
heck do you start? Well,I would first start with the word try,
because this is not just something youtry, like you might try some
diet. People who come to mehave had it. They just cannot ever
go on another diet. And that'spretty much of a prerequisite to being able
(13:58):
to be tuned into yourself, becauseif there's another diet in the future,
like, oh, I'll try thisintuitive eating thing for a while, and
if it doesn't work, then I'lltry and I could name and I don't
even want too many of the dietsout there, because just that mere perception
of future deprivation that's going to comewith that diet that they might do if
(14:20):
this doesn't work for them is enoughto keep them from being connected to themselves
and lead them to maybe eating everythingthey can that they've got the freedom to
eat now because it's about making peacewith food. But they better eat it
all now because when they failed atthis, as they've failed at so many
other ways of eating, then theywon't get to eat those foods anymore.
(14:43):
So it's a setup. It's asetup, so people have to be ready
to say I will never diet again. And the first place I like to
go with people, Well, thefirst place is really challenging diet culture and
just how toxic it is and howoppressive it is, how unfair it is.
And once we get past that,I like to have people take a
(15:03):
look at how they can get themost satisfaction in eating. And some people
look at me, like, whatsatisfaction? I'm really supposed to enjoy food?
They haven't. Well. I haveone client now in her sixties,
fairly new client who said that shehas never enjoyed food as much as she
loves food, but she doesn't enjoyit because she's always feeling guilty and bad
that she's either eating too much orthe wrong things. And looking through a
(15:26):
lens of satisfaction helps someone understand thebest time to start eating. I like
to say to people, would youeat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on
your way to your very favorite restaurantto celebrate some event? And people look
at me and go duh, atleast of course not? And I say
why? And they said, becauseI wouldn't have an appetite and I go
bigo. We know intuitively the food'sgoing to taste better if we have an
(15:50):
appetite. Now, the converse isif we're in primal hunger, which is
where your blood sugar is on theground and you're just so starving or you
feel as if you're starving, thenthat's not going to be an enjoyable melia
either, because all you can dois get the food in as fast as
you can. We have a chemicalin our brain and the instinctual part of
(16:11):
our brain called neuropeptide y, andit is released when that's survival part.
Instinctual part of the brain senses youknow, organism and danger, red flag
alert, and it will release thischemical which just sends people to eat as
much as they can and as manycarbs as they can because the person's in
(16:32):
danger. We need we need carbohydrates, and we need to keep our blood
sugar even and get enough from sugarinto the brain so the brain can work.
By the way, just as asidebar, the only form of energy
that can enter the blame excuse methe brain from the bloodstream is glucose,
which is your smallest form of carbohydrates. So all those people out there who
say carbs are bad, they don'tget it. We desperately need carbohydrates for
(16:57):
our brains to work, so thatyou can they can send messages to all
of our parts of our body towork properly. So satisfaction, getting back
to that, what foods do youreally enjoy? Don't eat foods that you
think you should rather than what reallyis delicious for you. Eating an environment
that is satisfying, you know,not while you're having a fight with someone
(17:18):
or not when there's you know,construction noise right next to you. If
you can avoid it, find waysto get the most satisfaction in eating.
And people love it. They justlove it because nobody's ever suggested to them
that they can just choose foods thatthey will enjoy. Yeah, so you
just went over a lot, SoI want to unpack some of it.
So when I first started, whenI first started reading about this, I
(17:41):
thought, isn't that interesting? Ican eat anything I want? How could
that make sense? I mean evenI had a hard time wrapping my head
around it. So I love thefact that you're helping people make peace with
food, But how does one overcomethat guilt, because if I am going
(18:02):
to eat anything I want or eateverything that I enjoy, how do I
not feel guilty eating a piece offried chicken? Did you steal the fried
chicken? You should feel guilty ifyou stole it. But you know,
there should be no morality attached toeating. I mean, it has to
(18:23):
be something that is well. Firstof all, access to food is so
important. We keep through the socialjustice lens. We're looking at a world
where there are so many people whodon't have access to food. But if
you're privileged enough to have the accessto food, there's absolutely no reason to
feel bad about what you're eating.All foods, by the way, I
(18:45):
have a Master of Science degree innutrition, so I'm kind of a science
nerd. And all foods break downto carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and
if it's a protein, nitrogen,So you know, once you're digesting the
food, once you chew it andyou digest it and then you absorb.
But it's just a bunch of littlebasic molecules. So how can anything be
(19:06):
bad or wrong? And so wehave to let guilt go completely. There's
no guilt. Yeah, So that'spart of the psychology of all of this,
so I know that this is nota diet to lose weight. But
there's also a little voice in myhead that says, do people gain weight
(19:29):
when they start doing intuitive eating?Are people? There are people who stay
the same, There are people wholose weight, there are people who gain
weight. Typically the people who gainweight have been suppressing their weight by restriction,
and once they allow themselves to eatto nourish their bodies, they may
way more than what they were,you know, maintaining with suppression. But
(19:52):
typically most people just kind of staythe same. So it's not it's weight
loss is really problematic if you're thinkingabout that when you're working on tuning into
your body, because any thoughts ofweight loss can lead to, oh,
gosh, I have full freedom teatwhat I want, but do I really
want to eat that the project andthat you're talking about that you didn't steal.
(20:18):
You know, it goes back tothat old dye culture, thinking that
this food is fattening and that foodis not fattening. There's no such thing
as fattening. By the way,if you're eating according to what your body
tells you, you'll eat just whatyour body needs amount wise. At first,
you may eat more of it becauseyou've been so deprived for so long,
so there's that rebound. But eventuallyyou just are satisfied with eating foods
(20:41):
that are delicious and you want tofeel good. So much of intuitive eating,
as I say, it's self care. Also, the self compassion part
is the self compassion for how we'vebeen brainwashing and gas lit around guilt,
you know, and morality and eating. But physiologically we just want to feel
good. Neural chemically also, wewant to feel good. We want our
(21:02):
brains to feel good, we wantour bodies to feel good, so we
listen. Sometimes, Sure, it'ssad to stop eating when you've had you
know, you know you've had enough. If you keep eating, you're going
to feel you're going to feel physicallyuncomfortable. I wrote a paper called the
Sadness of Saying Enough, which isbasically anything we do in life that's wonderful,
(21:22):
there's a moment when we realize weneed to stop. And there's a
moment of that feeling. But Icall it feeling light. It's not you
know, it's not like a heavyfeeling of some terrible depression. It's just
a moment And so yeah, yeah, Well, I'm going to make an
assumption here, and I want youto let me know if my assumption is
(21:44):
correct. I'm going to assume thateven though I have guilt, as I
use this diet as a new wayof life, I'm making peace with food,
I'm making peace with my relationship withfood, and I'm starting to love
my body. And I'm going toassume that there's a shift that takes place
(22:04):
where the diet is less about hey, eat anything you want and more about
nourishment, satisfaction and all of thoseother things. I will agree with most
of Yeah, I agree with mostof what you said. But this isn't
a diet, So we have tobe very careful not to call into eating
(22:25):
a diet because a diet implies restriction. A diet and implies an external you
know, rule of external rules.So this is a way of life,
This is a this is a philosophy, This is a just a wonderful sense
of joy in life and trust.So yes, in answer to your question,
(22:47):
this is what happens as people startto trust that they will never the
food will not be taken away fromthem. What happens is a concept called
habituation, which means the greater thestimulus, the less response. So the
more you give yourself permission to eatwhat you want to eat, you take
away the forbiddenness of it. Itdoesn't hold that power of Ooh, I
(23:10):
better get as much of it asI can now, because I won't allow
myself to have it later, orthe excitement of forbidden fruit quote unquote.
But it's something that takes place.It's amazing to me how quickly this happens.
I once had a client who thefirst time she came in and we
talked about this, she said,okay, I want to get started.
(23:30):
What do I do? I said, what's your favorite food? And she
said grilled cheese? And I said, great, eat grilled cheese every day
this week? She said every day. I said sure. She said,
oh that's great. There's this restaurantnearby that has grilled cheese week perfect.
Well, when she came in thenext week, I said, how do
you go? She said, ohmy goodness. After three days, I
didn't want another grilled cheese. Soit was that she knew she had the
(23:52):
freedom to have it, it wasnot going to be taken away from her,
and she just got habituated to it. Was enough, was enough.
So there is a very strong internalshift for feeling safety, feeling the lack
of deprivation, feeling the lack ofguilt. It's just a wonderful way to
(24:14):
live. I've been eating this wayfor forty years. And I did have
an eating disorder when I was inmy youth, when I was gosh,
in my late twenties early thirties,and I was dieting and I was binging.
That was my eating disorder. Itwas dieting and I was binging.
And once I was able to getaway from that mentality, that restrictiveness,
that trying to be thinner, youknow, to meet that ideal, everything
(24:38):
changed and it's just so wonderful.I'm pretty old now and it's wonderful to
be able to just enjoy food andnot worry about it well, and also
the loving your body part I thinkwe as women, that's such a great
benefit that comes with this eating pattern. So are there any dangers or cautions
(24:59):
associated this way of eating? Forexample, like people who've had an eating
disorder should not do fasting or youknow, so there are cautions, but
what about this diet? Is thereanyone who should not try intuitive eating?
Well, if someone is in thethroes of a very dangerous eating disorder,
(25:21):
they need a higher level of care, they need treatment, but they still
can be exposed to some of theprinciples of intuitive eating, so not the
hunger and the fullness, because theycan't detect that it's been so pushed away
from the eating disorder, and sometimesthey have slow to stomach emptying so they're
never feeling hungry. That piece cannotbe given to people who have you know,
(25:47):
early stages of eating disorders. Butthey can learn to respect their bodies,
they can learn to accept satisfaction ineating, they can learn different coping
mechanisms for their emotions. They canlearn to make peace with food, you
know food food experimentation where they'll takea fruit and food and they'll learn that
it's just food and they're fine withit. So I would say the caution
(26:07):
is for someone in you know,who's seriously ill, they need to be
in residential care for sure, andeven the residential care facilities now are introducing
into a debating at some point inthe treatment. But the hunger fullness part
can't be in the beginning. Okay, got it, Well, we have
about a minute left, so tellus what people will find when they go
to intuitive eating dot org RG.What will they find. Well, one
(26:33):
of the things is that there isa list, not all of them,
but there are over two hundred scientificstudies now that are evidence based that are
finding that people who are into adibatersor are taught into a debating have a
higher level of mental health and betterphysical health as well. So some of
the studies are on there. Theywill also find how to a place to
(26:57):
find a certified into a debating unseler. My co author and I have a
program for betraining people and there's ohpeople all over the world now who are
certified. So there's a place therewhere they can put in the area code,
uh not the zip code and finda certain fight intunivating Councilor they can
also go to my website, whichwhich is a least rush dot com and
(27:19):
I have tons of things on there. I've got articles I've written, and
links to podcasts I've done, andpersonal information about it personal not too personal,
but you know how I can't dointivating. So that's that's a little
more personal website than the intunivating dotorg. Great, so that's intuitive eating
dot org. And then alease rashdot com. Well, thanks again at
(27:41):
least for joining me. This hasbeen great. Oh you're so welcome my
favorite subject. Thank you lighting meYou bet well. That wraps up this
episode of five to Thrive Live onceagain. I'd like to thank our sponsors,
American Biosciences, makers of metatrol andIMpower product to supercharge your immune system,
amuse post biotic to give your immunesystem that extra boost, cotton is
(28:04):
instead of colone to help enhance memory, focus on attention, and doctor o'his
award winning shelf stable probiotic. Thankyou for joining me. May you experience
joy, laughter and love. It'stime to thrive everyone, have a great
name. S
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