Managing Stress with Adaptogens

On this episode, master herbalist David Winston will explain what adaptogens are. These medicinal plants are unique in how they benefit our ability to manage stress while improving our resilience, mood, stamina and energy. Join us to learn about herbal adaptogens for stress, stamina and reslience.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Any health related information on the followingshow provides general information only. Content presented
on any show by any host orguest should not be substituted for a doctor's
advice. Always consult your physician beforebeginning any new diet, exercise, or
treatment program. Hello everyone, welcometo five to Thrive Live, a podcast

(00:44):
about thriving for those who've been affectedby cancer and chronic disease. I'm doctor
Lisa Auschuler and I co host withmy good friend Carolyn Gazella. You can
find all of our past podcasts onany podcast outlet, as well as on
our web site, which is ithriveplandot com. I am very excited about
tonight's show because I have herbalist DavidWinston on today. David Winston is,

(01:11):
in addition to being an erbalist andethnobotanist, with over fifty years of training
in Chinese, Western, Eclectic,and Southeastern herbal traditions. He's been in
clinical practice for forty seven years.He consults as an rbalist to physicians,
to other herbalists researchers throughout the UnitedStates, Europe, Canada. He's also

(01:33):
the dean of David Winston's Center forRbal Studies, which offers a two year
training program in clinical herbal medicine,and he's the author of many books,
including Adaptogens Herbs for Strength, stamina, and Stress, which is the topic
of today's show, also a topicI'm very particularly fond of, so super
excited about today's show. Before westart, though, I want to thank

(01:56):
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and you can learn more at doctororhiro Probiotics dot com. And now,
David, welcome to five to ThriveLive. Thank you, Lise.
It's an absolute pleasure to be herewith you today. Yeah, indeed,

(03:29):
Well you and I get to talkabout one of our favorite topics, adaptogens.
But you know, before we jumpin, I think it would be
interesting to hear how you define erbalismand in fact, what is an herbalist.
Well, I know we only havea limited amount of time. That's
a bit, actually a really bigquestion, because an herbalist can be anything

(03:49):
from somebody who's an enthusiast and likesto use herbs, both for culinary purposes
growing herbs, et cetera. Butas myself, I am a clinical herbalist,
and what I would say to ourlisteners is that while there are I'm
sure many good clinical herbalists out therewho are quite knowledgeable, one way to

(04:10):
determine whether the person you're working withis really up to snuff because with herbal
medicine there is really no licensure,which is actually the way a lot of
herbalists prefer it, and that's fine, but that means somebody who took a
weekend workshop can say I'm a rbalist, and somebody who's been doing it for
fifty years and has a great dealof training can also say I'm a rbalist.

(04:30):
So what I would say is membersof the American Herbalist Guild, which
is the only organization representing clinical herbalistin the United States, which is a
peer review membership. So in orderto become a registered herbalist or clinical herbalist
in the HG, you have togo through a very extensive process. It's

(04:55):
not a test exactly, it's actuallya peer review process where they look at
you or credentials you're training. Youare asked to provide cases, comment on
cases, et cetera. So thatwe and I am a founding member of
the American Herbalist Guild, and Iin fact was the chair of Admissions review
for thirty one years. I steppeddown about two years ago. You know

(05:17):
that those people have really been youknow, looked at very carefully, and
they actually know what they're doing.So a clinical rbalist, from my perspective,
is someone who primarily uses clinical herbalistor a clinical herbal medicine as their
therapy. But any herbalists whose arenot also using diet, lifestyle, sleep,

(05:41):
exercise and all the foundations of healthis really missing the boat. But
to me, herbal medicine is reallythe use of sort of the the art
and the science of using herbs tohelp people stay well and get well.
Yeah, good, wonderful. Thatwas a very succinct definition of admittedly a
complex landscape. So let's move intoa less complex but complex on its own

(06:05):
terms landscape, and that is theworld of adaptogens. Really one of my
favorite categories of medicinal plants. Sohow do you define adaptogen? Well,
it's not really how I define anadaptagen, it's how science defines an adaptogen.
And the key here is that theterm adaptogen doesn't come from the herbal

(06:25):
community. It actually comes from researchers. The research starts in the Old Soviet
Union in nineteen forty seven with doctorLazarov and what they're trying to do.
And this is a lot of thisresearch is funded by the military, so
you don't think it was necessarily theywere trying to help the world. They
were trying to produce better soldiers,better cosmonauts, better workers so they could

(06:48):
do what Cruse Chef said, andthat was to basically bury the West.
Initially, they started looking at pharmaceuticalsand that kind of turned into a dead
end, and eventually Lazarov and hisco worker doctor Breckman kind of then move
into plants, and they first startlooking at Asian jenseng. The problem with

(07:12):
Asian jinseying is it's not grown inthe Old Soviet Union. And in those
days, even though you might thinkthat the Chinese and the Russians were friends,
they were both socialists republics. Infact, the two largest standing armies
in the world were in each other'sborders. They didn't trust each other at
all. And the last thing thatthe Russians wanted to do is use hard
earned Western dollars to pay the Chinese, because the Chinese wouldn't take rubles,

(07:40):
which were pretty much worthless. Andso they started looking within the territories of
the Soviet Union to find an indigenouscommon plant to study, and what they
came across was a plant called aLutherri Kaccus scenti kosis, which was for
a while sold here in the Westas Siberian jinsing. But that's a that's

(08:00):
incorrect. It's not really agensing,even though it is in the same overall
plant family, the Raliacea. Andin nineteen sixty or sixty one, doctor
Breckman published his first monograph on adaptogens. And then in nineteen sixty nine doctor
Breckman and doctor Dardamov came up withthe definition and the sort of the terminology

(08:24):
of adaptogen. And initially the definitionof an adaptogen was very simple. Number
one, it was something that createdwhat so they called a non specific state
of resistance. So it didn't matterwhether the stress was psychological, temperature,
other types of physical stressors. Regardlessof the cause of the stress, it
would help you to adapt and basicallyrespond more appropriately to that stress. Number

(08:48):
two, it would be non toxicand a normal therapeutic dose. And number
three, it would have a systemicamphoteric or normalizing effect. So that was
the initial definition of an adaptogen,and that's great, But the problem with
that is here we are fifty fouryears later and a lot of people are
still using that as a definition foradaptogens when the definition has While that is

(09:13):
still all true, the definition hasgrown and changed in the intervening fifty four
years. Based on research back inthe late nineteen nineties, they discovered that
adaptogens primarily worked through two of themaster control systems in the body, being
the HPA axis. That's the hypothyllamicpituitary adrenal axis or the sas a sympathoadrenal

(09:41):
system, which is your fight orflight mechanism. So the HPA axis controls
virtually all endocrine function, a greatdeal of nervous system function, immune function,
reproductive function, the enteric brain inthe gut, the basically endocrine function
in the heart, which I onlydiscovered twenty years ago, and any other

(10:01):
basically endegrine function in the body.And so it is a master control of
many things. So that was addedto the definition in around nineteen ninety eight
nineteen ninety nine, and then aroundtwo thousand and nine through twenty twelve they
discovered that adaptogens also work on acellular level, basically upregulating what are called

(10:26):
molecular chaperones. These are stress inducedcompounds, including a forekhead protein known as
FOXO, heat shot proteins, neuropeptidey and when you're under stress, your
body produces these things to help youto manage stress more effectively. So in
a sense, adaptagens act is what'scalled a U stressor a good stressor they're

(10:48):
a little bit like a stress vaccine. They say stress is coming, get
ready. It also showed that oneof the things adaptogens do is they inhibit
excessive core production, helping to preventcortisol induced mitochondrial dysfunction and of course the
mitochondria that we can think of themas sort of the powerhouses of the engines

(11:09):
of our cells. And so that'sone of the reasons when people with things
like fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue immune deficiencysyndrome are so tired and depleted all the
time. And I would also sayit's probably true with a lot of people
with long covid is because they havemitochondrial dysfunction and one of the things adaptogens
do is help prevent it. HYeah, again, excellent synopsis of really

(11:33):
a vast body of research. AndI think what's so interesting about these adaptogenic
plants is that they affect really everycell probably in the human body, and
have very predicted ways in which theywork. Although they differ from one another
due to the other constituent profile,at the core, they all, you

(11:54):
know, as you said, enhanceour ability to resist the deleterious effects of
I can't think of a category ofplants that's more indicated for most people actually
than adaptogens. So I'm wondering,you know, though they're not all the
same. There are some that area little bit more stimulating perhaps, meaning

(12:16):
people might feel a little bit energizedand they take them. Others are more
calming. So how do adaptations actuallydiffer and why do they differ in how
they affect humans? Well, oneof the things, and by the way,
it's not just humans, animals aswell, by the way, but
one of the things is we're dealingwith different plants, and so we can

(12:37):
have this term and again going backto what I described as the definition of
adaptogen. In order for something tobe an adaptogen, it actually has to
meet all of those parameters, soit can't just meet some it has to
meet all of them. So ifa plant meets all those parameters, they
don't do it because of a specificchemical. Yes, there are steroidal sap

(12:58):
and ins that have been in someplants seem to have adaptogenic effects, but
there's many different compounds and different plantsthat ultimately, when combined, all these
different chemicals, these all these phytochemicals in the plant somehow combined to create
this nonspecific state of resistance in humans. Some of those plants are stimulating,
like a red Asian ginsing or arodeola are quite stimulating. So, for

(13:22):
instance, if you're the kind ofperson that if you eat like a little
tiny piece of chocolate after lunch,you can't sleep at night, you don't
want to take rodeola because it'll keepyou awake at night. Then there are
cammon adaptagens like oshwagonda, which hasbecome incredibly popular over the last few years,
or Cortesps fungus or schazandra. Thereare also adaptogens that are drying,

(13:46):
meaning they have constituents. Sometimes flabinoidsor tannins that help to dry up excessive
secretions. We have adaptagens like schatavarithat are moistening, so they're especially useful
if there's what in Chinese medicine iscalled a indeficiency, so dry mouth,
dry cough, dry skin, vaginaldryness, etce are dry eyes. We

(14:07):
have adaptogens that are cooling, soif there is excessive heat inflammation, they
help reduce it. We have adaptogensthat are heating, so if somebody basically
needs increased heat, they need tostimulate digestion, digestive fire, stimulate circulation,
then those would be appropriate. Andso the key is we want to

(14:30):
use It's not just use a adaptagen, it's which adaptogen or adaptogens are right
for the person that we are talkingabout. So if we have a if
you or I have a patient whohas you know, a specific symptom picture,
there may be certain adaptogens that aremost appropriate for that patient. And
I would also mention adaptogens in traditionaluse are virtually never used by themselves,

(14:54):
meaning they're combined with other herbs thatsupport their activity, such as nerve which
are basically nerve tonics or nootropics thatenhance cerebral circulation, or what I like
to call restorative tonics that are justthese incredibly nourishing herbs that just don't quite
meet the definition of an adaptogen.Yeah, you know, the formula and

(15:18):
the combining, I think is areally important point, because although adaptagens do
have this very sort of combination unusualcombination of specific and non specific effects,
they do come maybe because of that, they combine well with other herbs,
and then you can, in doingthat, really create combinations that address say

(15:39):
somebody's stress and the impacts of thestress, but also maybe some of the
causative factors underlying that stress, anxietyor depression or exhaustion or whatever the case
might be. So yeah, Ithink that's an important point. So,
you know, adaptogens can be alittle bit confusing for people too. There
are some like let's say maca orLepidium lapimidium, which is considered nutritious like

(16:03):
almost a food. Not all adaptogens, I would say, are nutritious or
even really nourishing per se. Doyou feel or do you have other examples
or do you think of adaptogens whenyou have somebody who's seeing you who's pretty
deficient, maybe just needs some nutritionwell, yes, there are some adaptogens

(16:26):
that are quite nourishing and others thatare not at all. So give an
example. I already mentioned Rodeola rodiolais a purely stimulating but I wouldn't call
it nourishing at all. So ifyou have somebody who needs deep nourishment from
adaptogens like hitavari or Asian ginsing orash waganda, and you mentioned maca Lepidium

(16:48):
lapidium is interesting because I defc sortof my own category. I have a
book Adapted Deserves for strength, stamina, and stress relief. And what I
did in the book is I sortof cagorized to adaptogens as to how much
research there is. And so Ihave what I call well researched to adaptogens,
and by the way, they're onlyeight or nine of them. Then
I have what I call probable adaptogens, and things like holy basil and chatavari

(17:11):
go into that category. And thenthe last category, which has about a
dozen herbs in it, is whatI call possible adaptogens, meaning the evidence
for them actually being adaptogens is reallynot very good. And so maca is
in that last category. And macais either one of two things. It's
either an extremely mild nourishing adaptogen orit's what I call restorative tonic, and

(17:36):
like astragolus is a restorative tonic andamla is a restorative tonic, and gojiberry.
They're great herbs, they just don'tmeet that definition of adaptogens. And
so with maca it's again the samething. But these deeply nourishing herbs are
wonderful for people who are deficient,depleted, asthenic, you know, wasting
issues. Somebody who's had you know, our breastpitch or tract infection and post

(18:00):
infection, they're fatigued, exhausted,they can they've lost weight, they can't
seem to get their energy back,and those can be wonderful in a situation
like that. So speaking of uh, you know which things or plants are
and I said things purposely as I'llexplain in a moment, are adaptogens or

(18:21):
not? What do you think aboutmushrooms specifically cortceps and maybe we'll ask you
about rachi too. I think thoseare the two that come up the most
for consideration to be included in theadaptagen category. What's your take? Cortceps
is without a doubt and adaptogen andRishi is in the category of possible adaptogens

(18:44):
because the evidence for being an adaptagenis actually not that good. It's in
phenomenal or don't get me wrong,it is in Chinese medicine. It calms
the shen, so it's used foranxiety, irritability, agitation. It is
a immune amphoteric, meaning it helpsto normal immune function, whether it's hyperactive,
hypoactive, or both, which describesmost autoimmune disease. So it's a

(19:07):
remarkable herb, but the evidence foractually being an adaptogen is simply lacking.
And now part of the problem,though, is not that there's lots of
research and it was negative research.The problem is that just isn't much research.
And when the Soviet Union was inexistence, there was a lot of
research, although I can't speak tothe quality of that research, a lot

(19:30):
of it wasn't very good. Andsince the Soviet Union fell, there is
certainly research going on in Japan,there's research in India, there's research in
South Korea. There's a little bitof research in Europe. There was some
research out of Sweden, but thatwas mostly about a specific product, and
there's some some serious issues with someof that research. But in the United

(19:52):
States there's virtually no research because mostherb companies are not going to be spending
money for this type of research.It's expensive, and most pharmaceutical companies could
care less because you can't patent thesethings. So therefore in much of Europe
there's a little bit in Germany,but much of Europe, much of the
United States, there's simply a lackof research. And so you know,

(20:15):
we could get a lot more informationif there was funding for research. Because
again, as you say, theseare herbs, that does everybody need an
adaptagen? No, if you arehealthy and vibrant, you probably and not
under a lot of stress, youprobably don't need an adaptogen. Yeah,
but how many people do you meanthat category, David, be honest one,
No, fortunately not. But butfor many of us, depending you

(20:40):
know, whether it's aging, whetherit's being in a world that is crazy
and just full of stress, bothon a you know, personal level,
a community level, a country level, and then just dealing with all the
things that we have to deal with, whether it's you know, here we
are in the autumny again and it'slike the triple bonanza of upper respiratory track

(21:03):
infections. We are living in anincredibly stressful time indeed, and I think
that for that reason, I probablyrecommend adaptogens to definitely the majority of my
patients. So, you know,let's talk a little bit about this.
Somebody has chronic stress, So firstof all, that means they've been under

(21:26):
some inordinate amount of stress for someperiod of time, long enough anyway,
that it's starting to affect their health. And they come see you, you
say, okay, you are aperfect candidate for an adapto gen. What
do you tell them in terms ofexpectations? Are they going to wake up
tomorrow and feel great or is itgoing to take a while? Like,
how do these things work over time? Well, if they wake up tomorrow

(21:47):
and feel great, you either hada really good night's sleep or it's placebo.
So adaptogens in general don't work allthat quickly, although some things.
There are some studies where one doseof an adaptogen improve sleep quality or enhanced
alertness or things like that. Soagain, Rodeola is very stimulating, and
so for somebody who's feeling tired takingrodiola, you might notice a smiled increase

(22:11):
in energy, not quite a coffeeincrease, but increase in energy relatively quickly.
And the good news is unlike coffee. It doesn't really have any adverse
effects unless it happens to you know, you know, over stimulate you and
keep you up at night. Sowith most adaptogens, these are gentle herbs

(22:33):
that are usually taken over an extendedperiod of time. And so when I
see a patient, what I'm lookingat is, you know, I always
I have a two year herb studiesprogram, which you mentioned earlier, and
you know, I always tell mystudents in the beginning of the class,
they say, how many of youwant to be good urbalist? And everybody
raises their hand. I say,wrong answer, if you're going to be
an herbalist, and this the realityis, if you're going to be an

(22:55):
erbalist, if you're going to bea physician, if you're going to be
a car mechanic, if you're goingto be whatever it is you want to
be, don't try to be good. Do your best to be great.
Not that we ever achieve that,but you always want to do your best,
especially when there's people depending on you. And so you don't just want
to be competent. You really wantto stretch yourself and continue to learn,

(23:18):
continue to grow and learn everything youcan. And if you want to be
what I would call a great herbalist. In my opinion, just my opinion,
there are three things that really areimportant. One is you need to
understand the energetics of plants, whetherthey're heating, cooling, drying, etc.
Because that helps you to match theplant to the specific person. Number
Two, you need to understand humanenergetics, i e. Differential diagnosis,

(23:44):
what's going on, what's the underlyingpathophysiology, so you're not just treating symptoms.
You know, in a lot ofthe old herb books you'll read,
I'll say, you know these herbsare good for headache. Well, why
does somebody have a headache? Isit a stress headache? Is a migraine?
And if it's a migraine, isa you know, excess heat or
deficiency coal migraine or fire rising youknow, liver fire rising migraine. Are

(24:07):
Are they having headaches because of muscledspasm or muscle tension or a subloxation in
their neck? Are they having aheadache because they're banging their head against the
wall physically, emotionally or spiritually?And the reality is the things they are
going to work for each of thosethings is really different. And so the

(24:27):
more we can treat the person ratherthan the disease, the more effective our
protocols you're going to be. Andthat's of course the foundation of naturopathic medicine.
That's the foundation of good herbal medicineor aria veda or traditional Chinese medicine.
You nanny tib to bet medicine,et cetera. So we want to

(24:47):
sit down with that person and figureout what's going on. We want to
understand the enerjects of the herbs,the inerjects of the person, and then
we want to understand how to matchthose things up and how to combine things
to create synergy. And in alltraditional systems of medicine, this concept of
synergy is built right in the ideathat combining herbs appropriately and effectively, one

(25:11):
plus one no longer equals two.One plus one can equal three or four
or five. In fact, Iknow one study showing that adding her take
herb A, add herb B andit increased bioavailability by two thousand percent.
So one plus one equal two thousandand so the combination. You want to
be able to combine herbs to createin a sense, custom formulas that are

(25:34):
really designed for that person sitting infront of you. Now, sometimes you
can use off the shelf formulas,especially if they're well designed by somebody who
actually knew what they were doing.And I'm sure you know as well as
I. You look at a lotof the products on the shelf, and
sometimes they are like whoa not somebodyis the person who did it, looked
on PubMed and pulled out every studythat was positive for a specific condition.

(25:59):
That's not how you create synergy.So all of those things help us to
then be able to treat that specificperson and their specific symptom picture and their
specific issues, rather than focusing inon treating a disease entity. So let
me just ask you a question,then, what do you think about the

(26:21):
sort of advantage disadvantage of taking asingle adaptogenic herb forever and ever because you
like it, it fits kind ofwho you are, you get good results
from it, versus rotating through variousadaptogenic plants versus combining several together. Well,
what I would say is, ifyou take one thing every day and

(26:41):
it really works for you, thenkeep going great and wonderful. If that's
if that works for you, Iwould say for the average person, though
certainly if you have some If you'reworking with a clinician, what they're probably
going to want to do is theygoing to put you on a protocol and
it'll combine various herbs, supplements,diet, et cetera. And after you

(27:06):
know, if you know, obviouslythey're going to check in with you to
make sure everything's fine. But assumingthat everything is, after four to six
months, I usually like to reevaluatebecause if what I'm doing is working,
assuming it's something that you know youcan actually change. I mean, there's
some underlying issues that all you cando is manage them. But assuming that
with many issues, things change,they improve, you may want to reevaluate

(27:30):
after four to six months, justyou know, if what you're doing is
still the most effective thing for thatperson. And I would say that for
many people, if they have theknowledge, that's not a bad idea every
you know, once in a while. And the other thing is is I
never give it an adaptagen as asimple adaptagen what's called what's called simpling.

(27:52):
I always create again formulas for peoplebecause again there are other things. So
if a person also has cardiovascular issues, or kidney issues, or sleep issues
or whatever, the adaptogen may addressthose to some degree, but I can
add in other herbs that are supportive, either oregon trophile restoratives like hawthorn,

(28:15):
which is a trophile restorative, thinkof it as a food for the heart
and cardiovascular system. Or I couldadd in something like if they have nerve
pain or nerve damage, something likeSaint John's word hypericum. And again remember
hypericum can interact with certain medications,so be aware of that. And so

(28:37):
adding in other things means that I'mgoing to affect a broader range of tissues
in the body and ultimately have Ibelieve more therapeutic success. Okay, so
in thirty seconds or less, Andthis is a completely unfair question, So
I'm going to narrow it to justtoday, what's your favorite adaptogen? Because
I know your answer could change tomorrow. Today who gets the limelight. Well,

(29:03):
I will admit that I do takeashwaganda on a pretty regular basis.
It's a calming adaptogen. It isalso a wonderful anxiolytic. It is also
one of my favorite rs for fibromyalgia, helping both the pain and the underlying
cause of the fibromyalgia, which isoften a sleep issue causing a HPA access

(29:26):
dysfunction, and as someone who hassome sleep issues and things like that,
I find it works really well forme. It also stimulates the thyroid,
which is nice when you're my age. So yeah, I find that one
to be a particularly useful one forme. But I can't say I take

(29:48):
it all the time. Okay,fair enough, that's a good one.
Well, David, we could obviouslytalk for many, many, many more
minutes, but we are at atime. I want to thank you for
being here. And do you havea website that you want to direct our
listeners to to learn more about youand your books? Yes, absolutely,
if you'd like to go to rbalstudiesdot net, the website for my school,

(30:12):
the David Winston Center for Herbal Studies. We have all sorts of resources
there, free books that you candownload from my library, and all sorts
of information plus information about the schooland we'll I'll be teaching, and so
if you're interested, please check itout and your website one more time,

(30:33):
that is Rbalstudies dot net. Rbalstudiesdot net. Okay, Well, thank
you so much. That wraps upthis episode of Five to Thrive Live,
and again we thank our sponsors NFHthe professional supplement line bridging the gap between
nutraceuticals and evidence based medicine. Cognizanceof a colling to help enhance memory,
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(30:59):
Probiotics award winning pre and probiotic formulas. Thank you listener for joining us.
May you experience joy, laughter andlove. It's time to thrive. Everyone,
have a great night. Sin