February 18, 2025 • 29 mins
On this show, Karolyn talks with long-time colleague and friend Matt Mumber, MD, who is a respected integrative radiation oncologist. Dr. Mumber not only helps patients tap into the power of mindfulness for themselves but he has his own robust contemplative practice. Dr. Mumber will explain why mindfulness is so important but then he will provide practical ways to insert more mindfulness into your daily routine. Dr. Mumber is an accomplished physician, researcher, educator, and author.
Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
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Five To Thrive Live is broadcast live Tuesdays at 7PM ET and Music on W4CS Radio – The Cancer Support Network (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).
Five To Thrive Live Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Five to Thrive Live. I'm
Carolyn Gazella and I co host this show with my
good friend, doctor lesh Olschuler. Today I'll be talking about
one of my favorite subjects, mindfulness, with one of my
favorite integrative oncology experts. Doctor Matt Mumber is a boards
radiation oncologist in Rome, Georgia, and he has also had
(01:04):
advanced training in integrative medicine. He is an accomplished poet, author, speaker,
and facilitator and he is the perfect expert to talk
about mindfulness. But before we dive in, I'd like to
thank our sponsors. Beginning with Cetria, a patented form of
glutathione clinically proven to raise like glutathione levels. Glutathione is
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If you're looking for a way to enhance your brain function,
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Probiotics dot com. Doctor Mumber, Welcome back to five to
Thrive live.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Thank you, good to be back.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
How are you, Yeah, I'm doing great.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
How about you doing very well? Thank you? Well?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Good.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
First, let's start with something very basic. How do you
describe mindfulness?
Speaker 3 (02:50):
What is it? So? I think of mindfulness as really
two different things. One is the state of mindfulness in
which were basically present and paying attention on purpose. And
then the practice of mindfulness, which I think of as
a spiritual practice or a contemplative practice. And contemplative practices
(03:14):
basically allow us to experience communion with something, connection to someone,
and the ability to foster our awareness. There's a part
of us that just pays attention and when we can
tap into that, we're basically building the muscle of awareness.
So the spiritual contemplative practice of mindfulness helps us to
(03:36):
build those muscles of awareness, communion, and connection. And then
the state of mindfulness is kind of the fruit of
a mindfulness practice in which we're basically in the present moment,
able to pay attention with ease, with an open curiosity,
and really just to be able to enjoy whatever comes up.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, that's a great way to describe it. And speaking
of you know, fruit and you know what we can
get from our mindfulness practice. What does a research tell
us about any potential health benefits of being mindful?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, boy, it really tells us a lot. So since
I think the initial introduction of mindfulness to our Western
society was probably Thomas Merton when he introduced mindfulness back
into Christianity as a Christian contemporative practice. And then John
cabot Zen from the University of Massachusetts basically was a
(04:31):
researcher in mindfulness and an avid practitioner, and he was
basically telling his colleagues, look, send me all the people
who can that you've kind of given up on that
are having chronic pain and other problems, and I'm going
to teach them how to pay attention, how to what
mindfulness is. And so he really I think introduced mindfulness
(04:54):
about probably forty years ago to the scientific culture, and
since then the science is associated with mindfulness investigating it
has really just taken off. If you plug mindfulness into
the computer, into PubMed, into search profiles, it really has
numerous applications, as you would expect, because something that allows
(05:17):
you to stop and to be calm and to rest
and become in the present moment to the point where
your mind and your heart and your body are all
in the same place at the same time, would have
a tremendous number of benefits, you would think. So in
the cancer world, which is what I specialize in, and
I know you all kind of look at thrivers, people
(05:39):
thriving following a cancer diagnosis and those from other chronic illnesses. Basically,
the symptoms that mindfulness addresses in the National Cancer Guidelines
include things like fatigue and pain and sleep. And there's
almost no symptom associated with the adverse effects of anti
(06:00):
cancer therapies that mindfulness doesn't address. And there's literature to
point towards it. Yeah, yeah, pretty impressive.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, and it's such a growing area and it's really
fun to read about all the mental, physically, emotional, and
health benefits of mindfulness. And I know you have read
that literature extensively.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah. Yeah. So stress management, that's one of the biggest
things that people talk about, being able to manage anxiety.
One of the things I think that's interesting is that
can help us with our relationships. So one of the
things that mindfulness teaches is the ability to respond to
what comes up instead of reacting immediately without kind of
(06:44):
robotically so when there's a little space between what happens
and kind of our initial reaction, then we have time
to process it, and we have time to own it
and to think about what we're going to do to
not just immediately react and fly off the hand. We
can develop the measure response. And so to me, that's
an interesting part where it actually enhances our ability to
(07:06):
be in relationships with others.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, that is that's that's really cool. And you know,
a way a long long time ago, I actually had
the opportunity and pleasure of interviewing John Cabotzen, who, as
you mentioned, is a real pioneer in this area and
he's been fun to follow as well. You know, before
we dig into practical strategies, you have a very deep
(07:30):
contemplative practice that you've been doing for years. In fact,
there was a great article about you recently in Oncology News.
Tell us about that practice and why has it become
so integral to your daily life.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
So this practice was taught to me by a gentleman
named Jim Finley, who actually was a novice monk at
Gatsemine Monastery, which is where Thomas Merton was. And so
Thomas Merton was his spiritual advisor. So I'm kind of
feel like very lucky to and Thomas Martin's direct lineage.
And so Jim really dove into the contemplative practice, especially
(08:10):
as a way of healing from trauma. But he did
a lot of studying on Christian contemplative practices and one
he came up with is something that's called lexio divina.
And he didn't come up with it. He basically discovered
it and really kind of plumbed the depths of it,
and he wrote a book called Christian Meditation, which I
would highly recommend, But he talked about this guy named
(08:32):
Guigo who was a twelfth century Carthusian monk, and he
developed this process that is later called lexio divina. And
he was gardening one day and he had this vision
of the ladder going to heaven, and so the ladder
had several rungs to it, and then the first rung
was to do some form of spiritual reading, and that's
(08:52):
why it's alexio. That's Latin for reading, divine reading, and
so he would basically read something from a trusted spiritual
source and then the next step would be to do
discursive medic meditation, which means trying to figure out what
it means. Basically, how does this address me? What does
(09:13):
it make me think about or feel? And then how
would I explain this to another? That would be kind
of the second step if I was trying to share
this lesson, how would I share it with another? And
then the next step is to kind of tap into
the creative aspect of it, more of a generative practice,
which is to compose a prayer associated with what it
(09:36):
would make you think or feel, and asking prayer typically
like guide me to be more present in this moment,
guide me to have less fear, guide me to be
more open to my life situation, whatever it might be.
And then the final step of the ladder would be
to basically do what we think of as as sitting
(09:57):
in silent silent meditation. Insight meditation would be to just
sit in openness and let whatever comes up comes up,
and without grasping, without clinging, without resisting, just be open
to whatever comes up. Kind of what they used to
call in the medieval literature sitting in the clouded unknown.
And that's thought of the point where you're in that
(10:19):
space where God is. God comes to us in the unknown,
not in things that are you know, black and white?
And yet the no, And then that process is a
very generative one in which it can be a very
creative one. So the so when I kind of adapted
it as a part of my writing practice and writing
(10:42):
specifically writing poetry but also really almost writing anything nowadays,
I'll go through and I'll think about what it is.
I'm trying to focus on the general theme, how it
affects me, how it'd explained to another, and then I
allow myself to initially get creative with it. And then
as I get into that flow a little bit, then
I just stop and I rest, and I just pay attention,
(11:06):
sit in silence, and at some level I'll usually find
when I go back down to that rung, the most
recent rung, the creative, more generative rung of writing a
prayer or writing a poem, that some new insight will
have come up, and you kind of go up and
down the ladder like that, kind of connecting with the
(11:26):
beauty or the truth that you are trying to tap into,
connecting with trying to relate it to another what it
means to me, and then connecting to a creative process,
and ultimately then sitting in silence, sitting in the clouded unknown.
So it's really a wonderful flow for me, just kind
of addresses all aspects of my being in some way,
(11:49):
and it helps me to feel safe sitting in the unknown,
because sometimes sitting in the unknown and things you can't
control are is difficult. And so this kind of grounds
me in such a way that I feel very safe
doing that.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I love it. So for you, writing has always been
a big part of your mindfulness practice. Oddly, for me
it is not. I think it's because I write every
single day for work, so I don't utilize writing as
my mindfulness practice. But what are some other ways that
our listeners Maybe a listener is a little intimidated by writing,
(12:28):
or they don't want to write, What are some other
ways that listeners can incorporate more mindfulness into their routine.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, so, you know the with that Lexio divina practice,
you can also use it for just a beautiful thing,
anytime beauty comes into your life, like, for example, a
beautiful sunset is what do I think of when I'm
sitting here watching the sunset? How does it inspire me?
How can I bring more of it into my life?
And then you know, allowing that to fill you up basically.
(12:59):
So that's just a real nice way of ultimately enjoying
the experience at greater depth. For me, I have to
the start of mindfulness always starts for me with stopping,
because I was never taught to stop. I've always been
taught to go, you know, to study and learn and
do and create and all that. And so from a
(13:21):
standpoint of stopping, when I can stop the constant flow
of thoughts in my mind and the constant attention to
trying to move forward or to reach some goal or whatever,
then suddenly I find that I'm able to be calm.
And when I'm able to be calm, that I can
find that I'm able to be at rest. And so
I try to find times of the day where I
(13:43):
can do that. And one little tip that I like
to use is to use something that I know is
always going to be there, and that's my breath. And
so what I do is I set up little bells
of mindfulness during my day, such as like if a
bell rings, that kind of brings my attention back to stopping,
to being present and just being in the moment. So
(14:03):
what I do is think about times that I know
are going to happen. For example, one thing I know
and I hope is going to happen tomorrow morning is
I'm going to wake up and my feet are going
to hit the floor. And the second my feet hit
the floor, that's a queue to me to take a
breath in and let a breath out and then say
thank you. So I breathe in what's going on in
(14:24):
a moment, and I breathe out saying thank you, and
to me, that's a very kind of just soothing practice.
It's a great way to start the day. Then I
know at the end of the day, when I get
ready to go to sleep, I'm going to be the
first time I get in my bed, I'm going to
lay down and get myself all snuggled up in my covers,
and then I'm going to focus on my breath, breathing in.
(14:44):
I enjoy my in breath, breathing out. I enjoy my outbreath.
I enjoy breathing in. I enjoy breathing out. And one
of my most wonderful teachers, who I'm also considered to
be very fortunate to be in his spiritual lineage, was
Hick not Hong Vinb's Buddhist monk, and so that was
one of the practices that I learned directly from him
(15:07):
while I was in retreat with him. And I still
remember the second he said those words. It just kind
of hit me like a like a bolt of lightning,
just the fact that it could be that simple breathing in.
I enjoy my in breath, I enjoy my out breath.
It doesn't have to be anything difficult, and it doesn't
have to be a long drawn out practice either. It
(15:27):
can be a single breath and a single breath out
that's enough to refresh. And so as a physician, I
also know when I'm at work, you know, I can
get pretty focused and pretty stressed. And I want to
also make sure that when I'm with people, i'm with them.
I'm not thinking about the next person or the last person,
or trying to fix their problems immediately. I just want
(15:49):
to be with them and listen to them deeply. And
so whenever I go into a patient's room, just out
of habit, I knock, and so that is a cute
for me. I know I'm gonna knock, So every time
I then I take a breath in and I let
a breath out and then I'm ready to go when
a present And you can tell my dogs hurt me
(16:11):
knocking because they're yeah, A mine would have been too,
so anyway, So that's kind of how I tend to things.
Like I know, for a fact, I've got five or
six red lights on my way home, and so I
used to dread that I had to sit at the
red lights. And then I thought one day, well, you
(16:32):
know what, this is a perfect way for me to
do this. I'm gonna, you know, when the light is red,
I'm going to take that as a queue, not just
to stop my car, but to stop my kind of
persistence of trying to get home as quickly as I can,
or think about whatever. I'm just gonna sit. I'm gonna
take a breath in, let a breath out, Enjoy breathing in,
Enjoy breathing out, and just that the tick not Han
(16:56):
used to say that mindfulness itself is a source of happiness,
and I really think that's true, and so I try
to build in those little it's almost like little oases
in kind of the desert of doing. To a certain extent,
I can find these little oases of just being right here,
right now, and that kind of changes the quality of
(17:18):
my entire day. It allows me to find rest, butite
and rest, and so it's very refreshing.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I love the cues. We use that concept for other
things in terms of changing behaviors, and I think that
the I mean, you've just described many cues, and I
think that that's the cool thing about creating cues because
you can get creative and you can have them sprinkled
throughout your day, you know. And I'm the same way.
(17:47):
Before I even get out of a bed, before my
feet even hit the ground, as soon as I wake up,
I say a prayer and I say my Gratitude, loving
Kindness prayer that I say every single morning, sometimes at night,
and it's just such a wonderful way to start the day.
And I also meditate. Now, some of some of these
(18:08):
things meditating, Meditating can be one of them, can be
you know, some of these mindfulness practices can be a
little intimidating to some people. So what advice do you
have for listeners who may feel intimidated about doing mindfulness
practices on a regular basis.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Well, I think it's important to find something that you
resonate with, find a teacher whose message you resonate with
and then read that teacher's writings or be with that teacher.
So I think, find that teacher that you align with
and that will, by definition and not be very intimidating,
I think. And then find a practice that you also
(18:54):
feel good about and practice it. And then finally, I
think it's important that it's very difficult to do any
of this stuff by yourself, and there's a power to community.
And community doesn't have to be a ton of people,
but at least two or three people that you can
practice with, and I think that makes it much more
likely that you're going to sustain the practice and you're
(19:16):
not going to be intimidated. Then, you know, literally keep
it simple and be merciful with yourself. I think, you know,
I would say, treat yourself like you would your own grandchild.
You know, your child, you might be a little more
strict about doing things, but your grandchild, they can get
away with stuff. And so, you know, try to treat
(19:36):
yourself as though you're your own grandchild. Give yourself a
little leeway and mercy, and just be willing to allow
yourself to make mistakes and enjoy the process.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, and earlier you said, you know, that it doesn't
have to be difficult. It can be short, you know,
my gratitude prayer. I mean, you know, maybe it's a it,
you know, I mean, it just doesn't have to be
that involved or that intimidating. And and if you want to, uh,
(20:09):
you know, do something like meditation, I would agree. I
think meditation class, a meditation you know, somebody that you
look up to, somebody a meditation practice that resonates. I
think that's all really well and good. I've also been
writing about and doing research about like even eating, like
(20:31):
mindful eating as and you know, doctor Alschuler and I
talk about it a lot, like engaging all of your
senses and really you know, take the phone away from
the dining room table and and just really being present
and you know, use all your senses to enjoy the
cooking and eating experience. Have you, I know, you do
(20:54):
a lot of seminars and classes and you do a
lot of teaching. Have you incorporated that mindfulness into people's
diets at all with your patients or your in the seminars.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
That you do. Absolutely. As a matter of fact, we
have a four day group, a four week group that's
for individual sessions coming up for cancer patients through Cancer Navigators,
which is local nonprofit, and our first session will be
mindfulness and how it's impact how it can impact nutrition.
So just breathing in and seeing your food as it is,
(21:32):
looking at your food, because your food isn't just your food.
Your food is also the sunshine, the earth, the people
that raised it, the people that harvested it, and just
being respectful of how your food came into being. And
then also following your food as you place it in
your mouth and you taste it and you chew it,
(21:53):
and your body begins to digest it with salivation and
you swallow it, and then you basically bring it inside
of your body. It goes through down into your stomach
and eventually gets digested and then returns to the earth
literally and so part of it though, becomes your body.
Part of that food that was just in front of you,
(22:14):
that has so many components of it becomes your body.
And so it really does link I think, everything to everything.
So that's one of the main lessons I think of
a very deep approach to mindfulness is that everything is interrelated.
There is no separate entity or self that is in
(22:35):
and of itself outside of all existence. There is no
island that doesn't isn't a part of everything else We
all enter are And that's a really deep lesson kind
of on the spiritual side of mindfulness. The more we
can follow it along, the more we can respect what
we're eating, respect the earth, respect the people to help
grow it, and respect the process of the way that
(22:58):
we care for our body and what we put into
our body.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, I would agree, and then talk about cues. There's
no better queue than looking down at your plate and
pausing and then letting, letting the mindfulness. And I know
you and I both are our big nature people. So
even like walking outside, something like mindful walking where you're
you're not you're not listening to a podcast or you're
(23:23):
not you know, looking at your phone and you're looking
at your surroundings you mentioned earlier, Uh, just taking in
beauty and you know, a nature. I think that that's
a very that's a great place to infuse some mindfulness.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Yeah. And you know the other thing that we talked
about relationships. So mindful relationships allow people to get to
know each other as people and then allow for things
like conflict resolution uh to take place at a much
deeper level. Than it would otherwise, And so an approach
to mindfulness allows us to meet each other, realize that
(24:02):
none of us are separate, that all of us are interrelated.
And once we have that realization, that brings forth the
ability to be compassionate, to be a healing presence in
the world for ourselves and for each other. And that's
a very powerful energy to be able to move about
the world and help to provide for each other. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Absolutely, So what advice do you have for us to
stick with our mindfulness to make it sustainable? Now you
mentioned the cues. I feel that's kind of a brilliant
way to make it sustainable because if you choose your
cues wisely, you're choosing them things that happen that are sustainable.
They happen all the time.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah, exactly. And individualize it and choose things that you enjoy,
because it really is something that if you enjoy nature,
choose sitting and watching a beautiful sunset. When you see
a beautiful sunset, take mo to stop and watch it.
If you enjoy animals, take a moment to look into
your dog's eyes for a few seconds, breathe in and
(25:08):
breathe out with them. If you enjoy gardening. Take a
moment to really feel the dirt in your hand. Another
thing that every day, or I take a shower and
just feeling the water on my body. Trying to be
present with that is a very powerful practice to be
there rather than just trying to hurry up and get
(25:29):
done and get on with the day. Brushing my teeth
is another good thing. Taking care of my teeth and
so really can bring mindfulness and a mindful approach to anything,
and all it takes is just stopping first. That's kind
of the prerequisite. Stop the constant flow, the habit energy
of just going and going and going. Stop. And one
(25:53):
great way of doing that again, because it's always there,
is the breath. The breath can be a tether, and
so I breathe in, I breathe out the second I
do that. When I bring my mind and connect it
with an action in my body, which is the breath,
I'm in the present moment because I can't breathe anywhere else.
I can't breathe in the past, I can't breathe in
the future. When I'm in the present, I can touch
(26:15):
the path, the past and the future. But if i'm
my mind's occupied with the future or my mind's occupied
with the past. I really am not present in the moment.
So again it's that kind of getting the steps in order.
And I think it is really kind of gently and
with discipline, learning how to stop. And then in my mind,
(26:39):
the kind of the next big book that I'm working
on is actually based on kind of a culmination of
almost thirty years of running and facilitating these groups and retreats,
and it's really based on a practice. And I think
the title of the book is going to be to
hold Without And I think that is something that if
(27:05):
we can stop, if we can hold whatever comes up
without immediately trying to fix it or understand it or
change it or you know, make it more optimal, if
we can just hold it, then I think that usually
what happens is that it reveals itself to be at
much greater depth than is superficially noticed at front. And
(27:27):
so so I think that's kind of for me, How
can I hold this moment and just be with it?
Just be with it.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Well, we'll have to have you back on after you
write that book. I can't wait for it. It's actually
listeners easier than you think. To be mindful and make
it sustainable. And doctor Mumber, where can people find out
more about you? Is your website Matt Mumber dot com.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Yes, doctor Dr Matt Mumber Doctor Matt Mumber dot com. Yea.
And then the poetry books are very very self revealing
from my perspective because they really are just me writing
for my experience of life. And so in the Awakening
Season was the first one, and then the Attending was
the second, and then the book Sustainable Wellness talks a
(28:15):
lot about my experiences with incorporating mindfulness into living.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, it's your poetry is beautiful and I highly recommend
that our listeners check out your website doctor Dr Matt
m A. T. T. Mumber m U m B E
R dot com. Thanks again, doctor Mumber for joining me.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Thank you, it's always great to talk with you. Cara.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Absolutely well. That wraps up this episode of five to
Thrive Live once again. I'd like to thank our sponsors,
pro Thriver's Wellness Sleep formula, Cetria Glutethione, the superior glutathione
to support liver and immune health, Cognizance Citicoline to help
enhance memory, focus and attention, and Doctor Oher's Award winning
shelf Stable Probiotic. This has been a great show. You
(29:00):
experience joy, laughter and love. It's time to thrive. Everyone.
Have a great night.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Suscovy, loscoving, lots good to stay that jays the city
is
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Strang
Any health related information on the following show provides general
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
or treatment program.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Five to Thrive Live. I'm
Carolyn Gazella and I co host this show with my
good friend, doctor lesh Olschuler. Today I'll be talking about
one of my favorite subjects, mindfulness, with one of my
favorite integrative oncology experts. Doctor Matt Mumber is a boards
radiation oncologist in Rome, Georgia, and he has also had
(01:04):
advanced training in integrative medicine. He is an accomplished poet, author, speaker,
and facilitator and he is the perfect expert to talk
about mindfulness. But before we dive in, I'd like to
thank our sponsors. Beginning with Cetria, a patented form of
glutathione clinically proven to raise like glutathione levels. Glutathione is
the masster antioxidant in the body's primary defense against free radicals.
(01:28):
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Probiotics dot com. Doctor Mumber, Welcome back to five to
Thrive live.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Thank you, good to be back.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
How are you, Yeah, I'm doing great.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
How about you doing very well? Thank you? Well?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Good.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
First, let's start with something very basic. How do you
describe mindfulness?
Speaker 3 (02:50):
What is it? So? I think of mindfulness as really
two different things. One is the state of mindfulness in
which were basically present and paying attention on purpose. And
then the practice of mindfulness, which I think of as
a spiritual practice or a contemplative practice. And contemplative practices
(03:14):
basically allow us to experience communion with something, connection to someone,
and the ability to foster our awareness. There's a part
of us that just pays attention and when we can
tap into that, we're basically building the muscle of awareness.
So the spiritual contemplative practice of mindfulness helps us to
(03:36):
build those muscles of awareness, communion, and connection. And then
the state of mindfulness is kind of the fruit of
a mindfulness practice in which we're basically in the present moment,
able to pay attention with ease, with an open curiosity,
and really just to be able to enjoy whatever comes up.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, that's a great way to describe it. And speaking
of you know, fruit and you know what we can
get from our mindfulness practice. What does a research tell
us about any potential health benefits of being mindful?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, boy, it really tells us a lot. So since
I think the initial introduction of mindfulness to our Western
society was probably Thomas Merton when he introduced mindfulness back
into Christianity as a Christian contemporative practice. And then John
cabot Zen from the University of Massachusetts basically was a
(04:31):
researcher in mindfulness and an avid practitioner, and he was
basically telling his colleagues, look, send me all the people
who can that you've kind of given up on that
are having chronic pain and other problems, and I'm going
to teach them how to pay attention, how to what
mindfulness is. And so he really I think introduced mindfulness
(04:54):
about probably forty years ago to the scientific culture, and
since then the science is associated with mindfulness investigating it
has really just taken off. If you plug mindfulness into
the computer, into PubMed, into search profiles, it really has
numerous applications, as you would expect, because something that allows
(05:17):
you to stop and to be calm and to rest
and become in the present moment to the point where
your mind and your heart and your body are all
in the same place at the same time, would have
a tremendous number of benefits, you would think. So in
the cancer world, which is what I specialize in, and
I know you all kind of look at thrivers, people
(05:39):
thriving following a cancer diagnosis and those from other chronic illnesses. Basically,
the symptoms that mindfulness addresses in the National Cancer Guidelines
include things like fatigue and pain and sleep. And there's
almost no symptom associated with the adverse effects of anti
(06:00):
cancer therapies that mindfulness doesn't address. And there's literature to
point towards it. Yeah, yeah, pretty impressive.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, and it's such a growing area and it's really
fun to read about all the mental, physically, emotional, and
health benefits of mindfulness. And I know you have read
that literature extensively.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah. Yeah. So stress management, that's one of the biggest
things that people talk about, being able to manage anxiety.
One of the things I think that's interesting is that
can help us with our relationships. So one of the
things that mindfulness teaches is the ability to respond to
what comes up instead of reacting immediately without kind of
(06:44):
robotically so when there's a little space between what happens
and kind of our initial reaction, then we have time
to process it, and we have time to own it
and to think about what we're going to do to
not just immediately react and fly off the hand. We
can develop the measure response. And so to me, that's
an interesting part where it actually enhances our ability to
(07:06):
be in relationships with others.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, that is that's that's really cool. And you know,
a way a long long time ago, I actually had
the opportunity and pleasure of interviewing John Cabotzen, who, as
you mentioned, is a real pioneer in this area and
he's been fun to follow as well. You know, before
we dig into practical strategies, you have a very deep
(07:30):
contemplative practice that you've been doing for years. In fact,
there was a great article about you recently in Oncology News.
Tell us about that practice and why has it become
so integral to your daily life.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
So this practice was taught to me by a gentleman
named Jim Finley, who actually was a novice monk at
Gatsemine Monastery, which is where Thomas Merton was. And so
Thomas Merton was his spiritual advisor. So I'm kind of
feel like very lucky to and Thomas Martin's direct lineage.
And so Jim really dove into the contemplative practice, especially
(08:10):
as a way of healing from trauma. But he did
a lot of studying on Christian contemplative practices and one
he came up with is something that's called lexio divina.
And he didn't come up with it. He basically discovered
it and really kind of plumbed the depths of it,
and he wrote a book called Christian Meditation, which I
would highly recommend, But he talked about this guy named
(08:32):
Guigo who was a twelfth century Carthusian monk, and he
developed this process that is later called lexio divina. And
he was gardening one day and he had this vision
of the ladder going to heaven, and so the ladder
had several rungs to it, and then the first rung
was to do some form of spiritual reading, and that's
(08:52):
why it's alexio. That's Latin for reading, divine reading, and
so he would basically read something from a trusted spiritual
source and then the next step would be to do
discursive medic meditation, which means trying to figure out what
it means. Basically, how does this address me? What does
(09:13):
it make me think about or feel? And then how
would I explain this to another? That would be kind
of the second step if I was trying to share
this lesson, how would I share it with another? And
then the next step is to kind of tap into
the creative aspect of it, more of a generative practice,
which is to compose a prayer associated with what it
(09:36):
would make you think or feel, and asking prayer typically
like guide me to be more present in this moment,
guide me to have less fear, guide me to be
more open to my life situation, whatever it might be.
And then the final step of the ladder would be
to basically do what we think of as as sitting
(09:57):
in silent silent meditation. Insight meditation would be to just
sit in openness and let whatever comes up comes up,
and without grasping, without clinging, without resisting, just be open
to whatever comes up. Kind of what they used to
call in the medieval literature sitting in the clouded unknown.
And that's thought of the point where you're in that
(10:19):
space where God is. God comes to us in the unknown,
not in things that are you know, black and white?
And yet the no, And then that process is a
very generative one in which it can be a very
creative one. So the so when I kind of adapted
it as a part of my writing practice and writing
(10:42):
specifically writing poetry but also really almost writing anything nowadays,
I'll go through and I'll think about what it is.
I'm trying to focus on the general theme, how it
affects me, how it'd explained to another, and then I
allow myself to initially get creative with it. And then
as I get into that flow a little bit, then
I just stop and I rest, and I just pay attention,
(11:06):
sit in silence, and at some level I'll usually find
when I go back down to that rung, the most
recent rung, the creative, more generative rung of writing a
prayer or writing a poem, that some new insight will
have come up, and you kind of go up and
down the ladder like that, kind of connecting with the
(11:26):
beauty or the truth that you are trying to tap into,
connecting with trying to relate it to another what it
means to me, and then connecting to a creative process,
and ultimately then sitting in silence, sitting in the clouded unknown.
So it's really a wonderful flow for me, just kind
of addresses all aspects of my being in some way,
(11:49):
and it helps me to feel safe sitting in the unknown,
because sometimes sitting in the unknown and things you can't
control are is difficult. And so this kind of grounds
me in such a way that I feel very safe
doing that.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I love it. So for you, writing has always been
a big part of your mindfulness practice. Oddly, for me
it is not. I think it's because I write every
single day for work, so I don't utilize writing as
my mindfulness practice. But what are some other ways that
our listeners Maybe a listener is a little intimidated by writing,
(12:28):
or they don't want to write, What are some other
ways that listeners can incorporate more mindfulness into their routine.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, so, you know the with that Lexio divina practice,
you can also use it for just a beautiful thing,
anytime beauty comes into your life, like, for example, a
beautiful sunset is what do I think of when I'm
sitting here watching the sunset? How does it inspire me?
How can I bring more of it into my life?
And then you know, allowing that to fill you up basically.
(12:59):
So that's just a real nice way of ultimately enjoying
the experience at greater depth. For me, I have to
the start of mindfulness always starts for me with stopping,
because I was never taught to stop. I've always been
taught to go, you know, to study and learn and
do and create and all that. And so from a
(13:21):
standpoint of stopping, when I can stop the constant flow
of thoughts in my mind and the constant attention to
trying to move forward or to reach some goal or whatever,
then suddenly I find that I'm able to be calm.
And when I'm able to be calm, that I can
find that I'm able to be at rest. And so
I try to find times of the day where I
(13:43):
can do that. And one little tip that I like
to use is to use something that I know is
always going to be there, and that's my breath. And
so what I do is I set up little bells
of mindfulness during my day, such as like if a
bell rings, that kind of brings my attention back to stopping,
to being present and just being in the moment. So
(14:03):
what I do is think about times that I know
are going to happen. For example, one thing I know
and I hope is going to happen tomorrow morning is
I'm going to wake up and my feet are going
to hit the floor. And the second my feet hit
the floor, that's a queue to me to take a
breath in and let a breath out and then say
thank you. So I breathe in what's going on in
(14:24):
a moment, and I breathe out saying thank you, and
to me, that's a very kind of just soothing practice.
It's a great way to start the day. Then I
know at the end of the day, when I get
ready to go to sleep, I'm going to be the
first time I get in my bed, I'm going to
lay down and get myself all snuggled up in my covers,
and then I'm going to focus on my breath, breathing in.
(14:44):
I enjoy my in breath, breathing out. I enjoy my outbreath.
I enjoy breathing in. I enjoy breathing out. And one
of my most wonderful teachers, who I'm also considered to
be very fortunate to be in his spiritual lineage, was
Hick not Hong Vinb's Buddhist monk, and so that was
one of the practices that I learned directly from him
(15:07):
while I was in retreat with him. And I still
remember the second he said those words. It just kind
of hit me like a like a bolt of lightning,
just the fact that it could be that simple breathing in.
I enjoy my in breath, I enjoy my out breath.
It doesn't have to be anything difficult, and it doesn't
have to be a long drawn out practice either. It
(15:27):
can be a single breath and a single breath out
that's enough to refresh. And so as a physician, I
also know when I'm at work, you know, I can
get pretty focused and pretty stressed. And I want to
also make sure that when I'm with people, i'm with them.
I'm not thinking about the next person or the last person,
or trying to fix their problems immediately. I just want
(15:49):
to be with them and listen to them deeply. And
so whenever I go into a patient's room, just out
of habit, I knock, and so that is a cute
for me. I know I'm gonna knock, So every time
I then I take a breath in and I let
a breath out and then I'm ready to go when
a present And you can tell my dogs hurt me
(16:11):
knocking because they're yeah, A mine would have been too,
so anyway, So that's kind of how I tend to things.
Like I know, for a fact, I've got five or
six red lights on my way home, and so I
used to dread that I had to sit at the
red lights. And then I thought one day, well, you
(16:32):
know what, this is a perfect way for me to
do this. I'm gonna, you know, when the light is red,
I'm going to take that as a queue, not just
to stop my car, but to stop my kind of
persistence of trying to get home as quickly as I can,
or think about whatever. I'm just gonna sit. I'm gonna
take a breath in, let a breath out, Enjoy breathing in,
Enjoy breathing out, and just that the tick not Han
(16:56):
used to say that mindfulness itself is a source of happiness,
and I really think that's true, and so I try
to build in those little it's almost like little oases
in kind of the desert of doing. To a certain extent,
I can find these little oases of just being right here,
right now, and that kind of changes the quality of
(17:18):
my entire day. It allows me to find rest, butite
and rest, and so it's very refreshing.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I love the cues. We use that concept for other
things in terms of changing behaviors, and I think that
the I mean, you've just described many cues, and I
think that that's the cool thing about creating cues because
you can get creative and you can have them sprinkled
throughout your day, you know. And I'm the same way.
(17:47):
Before I even get out of a bed, before my
feet even hit the ground, as soon as I wake up,
I say a prayer and I say my Gratitude, loving
Kindness prayer that I say every single morning, sometimes at night,
and it's just such a wonderful way to start the day.
And I also meditate. Now, some of some of these
(18:08):
things meditating, Meditating can be one of them, can be
you know, some of these mindfulness practices can be a
little intimidating to some people. So what advice do you
have for listeners who may feel intimidated about doing mindfulness
practices on a regular basis.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Well, I think it's important to find something that you
resonate with, find a teacher whose message you resonate with
and then read that teacher's writings or be with that teacher.
So I think, find that teacher that you align with
and that will, by definition and not be very intimidating,
I think. And then find a practice that you also
(18:54):
feel good about and practice it. And then finally, I
think it's important that it's very difficult to do any
of this stuff by yourself, and there's a power to community.
And community doesn't have to be a ton of people,
but at least two or three people that you can
practice with, and I think that makes it much more
likely that you're going to sustain the practice and you're
(19:16):
not going to be intimidated. Then, you know, literally keep
it simple and be merciful with yourself. I think, you know,
I would say, treat yourself like you would your own grandchild.
You know, your child, you might be a little more
strict about doing things, but your grandchild, they can get
away with stuff. And so, you know, try to treat
(19:36):
yourself as though you're your own grandchild. Give yourself a
little leeway and mercy, and just be willing to allow
yourself to make mistakes and enjoy the process.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, and earlier you said, you know, that it doesn't
have to be difficult. It can be short, you know,
my gratitude prayer. I mean, you know, maybe it's a it,
you know, I mean, it just doesn't have to be
that involved or that intimidating. And and if you want to, uh,
(20:09):
you know, do something like meditation, I would agree. I
think meditation class, a meditation you know, somebody that you
look up to, somebody a meditation practice that resonates. I
think that's all really well and good. I've also been
writing about and doing research about like even eating, like
(20:31):
mindful eating as and you know, doctor Alschuler and I
talk about it a lot, like engaging all of your
senses and really you know, take the phone away from
the dining room table and and just really being present
and you know, use all your senses to enjoy the
cooking and eating experience. Have you, I know, you do
(20:54):
a lot of seminars and classes and you do a
lot of teaching. Have you incorporated that mindfulness into people's
diets at all with your patients or your in the seminars.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
That you do. Absolutely. As a matter of fact, we
have a four day group, a four week group that's
for individual sessions coming up for cancer patients through Cancer Navigators,
which is local nonprofit, and our first session will be
mindfulness and how it's impact how it can impact nutrition.
So just breathing in and seeing your food as it is,
(21:32):
looking at your food, because your food isn't just your food.
Your food is also the sunshine, the earth, the people
that raised it, the people that harvested it, and just
being respectful of how your food came into being. And
then also following your food as you place it in
your mouth and you taste it and you chew it,
(21:53):
and your body begins to digest it with salivation and
you swallow it, and then you basically bring it inside
of your body. It goes through down into your stomach
and eventually gets digested and then returns to the earth
literally and so part of it though, becomes your body.
Part of that food that was just in front of you,
(22:14):
that has so many components of it becomes your body.
And so it really does link I think, everything to everything.
So that's one of the main lessons I think of
a very deep approach to mindfulness is that everything is interrelated.
There is no separate entity or self that is in
(22:35):
and of itself outside of all existence. There is no
island that doesn't isn't a part of everything else We
all enter are And that's a really deep lesson kind
of on the spiritual side of mindfulness. The more we
can follow it along, the more we can respect what
we're eating, respect the earth, respect the people to help
grow it, and respect the process of the way that
(22:58):
we care for our body and what we put into
our body.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, I would agree, and then talk about cues. There's
no better queue than looking down at your plate and
pausing and then letting, letting the mindfulness. And I know
you and I both are our big nature people. So
even like walking outside, something like mindful walking where you're
you're not you're not listening to a podcast or you're
(23:23):
not you know, looking at your phone and you're looking
at your surroundings you mentioned earlier, Uh, just taking in
beauty and you know, a nature. I think that that's
a very that's a great place to infuse some mindfulness.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Yeah. And you know the other thing that we talked
about relationships. So mindful relationships allow people to get to
know each other as people and then allow for things
like conflict resolution uh to take place at a much
deeper level. Than it would otherwise, And so an approach
to mindfulness allows us to meet each other, realize that
(24:02):
none of us are separate, that all of us are interrelated.
And once we have that realization, that brings forth the
ability to be compassionate, to be a healing presence in
the world for ourselves and for each other. And that's
a very powerful energy to be able to move about
the world and help to provide for each other. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Absolutely, So what advice do you have for us to
stick with our mindfulness to make it sustainable? Now you
mentioned the cues. I feel that's kind of a brilliant
way to make it sustainable because if you choose your
cues wisely, you're choosing them things that happen that are sustainable.
They happen all the time.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah, exactly. And individualize it and choose things that you enjoy,
because it really is something that if you enjoy nature,
choose sitting and watching a beautiful sunset. When you see
a beautiful sunset, take mo to stop and watch it.
If you enjoy animals, take a moment to look into
your dog's eyes for a few seconds, breathe in and
(25:08):
breathe out with them. If you enjoy gardening. Take a
moment to really feel the dirt in your hand. Another
thing that every day, or I take a shower and
just feeling the water on my body. Trying to be
present with that is a very powerful practice to be
there rather than just trying to hurry up and get
(25:29):
done and get on with the day. Brushing my teeth
is another good thing. Taking care of my teeth and
so really can bring mindfulness and a mindful approach to anything,
and all it takes is just stopping first. That's kind
of the prerequisite. Stop the constant flow, the habit energy
of just going and going and going. Stop. And one
(25:53):
great way of doing that again, because it's always there,
is the breath. The breath can be a tether, and
so I breathe in, I breathe out the second I
do that. When I bring my mind and connect it
with an action in my body, which is the breath,
I'm in the present moment because I can't breathe anywhere else.
I can't breathe in the past, I can't breathe in
the future. When I'm in the present, I can touch
(26:15):
the path, the past and the future. But if i'm
my mind's occupied with the future or my mind's occupied
with the past. I really am not present in the moment.
So again it's that kind of getting the steps in order.
And I think it is really kind of gently and
with discipline, learning how to stop. And then in my mind,
(26:39):
the kind of the next big book that I'm working
on is actually based on kind of a culmination of
almost thirty years of running and facilitating these groups and retreats,
and it's really based on a practice. And I think
the title of the book is going to be to
hold Without And I think that is something that if
(27:05):
we can stop, if we can hold whatever comes up
without immediately trying to fix it or understand it or
change it or you know, make it more optimal, if
we can just hold it, then I think that usually
what happens is that it reveals itself to be at
much greater depth than is superficially noticed at front. And
(27:27):
so so I think that's kind of for me, How
can I hold this moment and just be with it?
Just be with it.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Well, we'll have to have you back on after you
write that book. I can't wait for it. It's actually
listeners easier than you think. To be mindful and make
it sustainable. And doctor Mumber, where can people find out
more about you? Is your website Matt Mumber dot com.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Yes, doctor Dr Matt Mumber Doctor Matt Mumber dot com. Yea.
And then the poetry books are very very self revealing
from my perspective because they really are just me writing
for my experience of life. And so in the Awakening
Season was the first one, and then the Attending was
the second, and then the book Sustainable Wellness talks a
(28:15):
lot about my experiences with incorporating mindfulness into living.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, it's your poetry is beautiful and I highly recommend
that our listeners check out your website doctor Dr Matt
m A. T. T. Mumber m U m B E
R dot com. Thanks again, doctor Mumber for joining me.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Thank you, it's always great to talk with you. Cara.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Absolutely well. That wraps up this episode of five to
Thrive Live once again. I'd like to thank our sponsors,
pro Thriver's Wellness Sleep formula, Cetria Glutethione, the superior glutathione
to support liver and immune health, Cognizance Citicoline to help
enhance memory, focus and attention, and Doctor Oher's Award winning
shelf Stable Probiotic. This has been a great show. You
(29:00):
experience joy, laughter and love. It's time to thrive. Everyone.
Have a great night.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Suscovy, loscoving, lots good to stay that jays the city
is
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Strang
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